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vice president kamla Harris is moving
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into the next phase of her campaign with
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the Democratic National Convention now
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in the rearview mirror the Harris
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campaign said over the weekend and now
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raised $540 million since launching last
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month with 82 million coming during the
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convention nearly a third of those
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donations from the conven came from
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firsttime
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contributors um I wanted I I I started
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with the idea of joy that the Harris
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campaign and Democrats are leaning into
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heavily uh we heard it mentioned in a
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number of convention speeches last week
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talk a little bit about it what do you
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think about the politics of Joy you've
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written in the past about the power of
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collective effervescence which is kind
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of a cooler way to say it but joy is an
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easier word three just three letters
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essentially group happiness that was
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that was especially powerful postco can
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you talk a little bit about this yeah I
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think the sociologist jhe first read
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about Collective effervescence is that
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sense of energy and purpose you get in a
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group when you have a common goal
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together and I do think that's what the
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comma Harris campaign has created for a
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lot of people who you know either
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thought Biden was too old or just
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weren't energized by his candidacy at
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the same time you don't you don't want
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to be paana as a leader um you want
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people to to understand that you
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recognize the pain and the hardship
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they're facing and that's why I would
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frame this much more as hope than Joy I
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think Joy is about the was taken by
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Obama but go ahead well you you could
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say that but I I think in analyzing it
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right what we're really talking about is
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energy people have around a possible
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future mhm not about the present
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nobody's feeling Joy um around this if
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you know if Trump wins so I think that
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you know the fact that it's
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forward-looking means it really is hope
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not Joy um I think it's anticipatory I
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think it's excitement about what's to
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come and I do think that energizes
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people to vote and I think you know we
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we have had a a long political I guess
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streak of you know of politicians
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bashing and trashing each other but I
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don't want to assume it always has to be
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that way I I look for example at the
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campaign that holl Thomas daughter ran
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in Iceland for president recently where
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she won refusing to attack her opponents
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running a campaign based on curiosity
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and hope and enthusiasm and people
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resonated with that now Iceland is a
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tiny country right but I I wouldn't
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assume that America which is often
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regarded as the most enthusiastic
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country on Earth um couldn't operate
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that way too and I guess I guess we'll
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find out as people begin to turn out at
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the the polls what do you think Cara uh
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you know I think think I think it work I
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think it's fine I don't know why they
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have to crap all over Joy it's like
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they're like a skunk at a garden party
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it's like let them have it for a minute
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I mean it worked for Obama it worked for
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Clinton it works it works it worked for
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Reagan right Reagan was the original
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morning in America guy right it's and he
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was talking about the future I think
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what um I think she has pretty
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definitely talked about problems right
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she just doesn't do them with a sense of
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shrug shoulders right like let's goward
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dread dread right it's all I think the
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Biden campaign I was talking to someone
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in uh again this weekend and when they
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go democracy is on the ballot I'm like
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oh no really I have to save democracy
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you know you I think it it it's
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overwhelming and and it makes you grief
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stricken ironically as dark as Trump was
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in
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2016 I alone can fix this was the
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overwhelming message that a lot of
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people
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heard so that was a good it was a strong
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man I can help you I can I'm big daddy
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kind of thing can how does you Channel
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it into strategy and policy um what are
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some effective leadership qualities
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positive and negative you're seeing from
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both of them from KLA Harris and Trump
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um you were posting about the study
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about uh looking at the negative impact
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of rudess and disrespect on team
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performance in other fields that's all
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he's got at this point he he hasn't been
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able to Pivot to anything hopeful in any
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fashion talk a little bit about negative
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qual qualities you're seeing for both of
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them and positive well I think I think
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one of the things that the the Trump
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campaign was doing well was attacking
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Biden on age and they did not it doesn't
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seem like they had much of a backup
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strategy once Harris took over and they
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they seem to be scrambling quite a bit
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now um if I were them I would I would
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probably take a little bit of ownership
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over weird and say look you know America
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has always been weird um weird has been
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a driver of innovation has been you know
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a major source of fuel for disruption
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and I I think there might be a missed
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opportunity there as a as opposed to
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trying to prove no no no we're normal
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yeah anyone who says they're not weird
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is weird that's the thing that's I
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anyone who's been to high school knows
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that one right knows that trick um so
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you would take over weird they can't
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they seem perpetually offended by it it
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seems to have hit quite effectively yeah
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which which is I think surprising in
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some ways I wonder if part of the reason
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it works is because it's not as heavy as
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the other attacks that have been tried
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right um you know everybody's exhausted
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by the Felon rapist you know immoral
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like oh this is just so much to think
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about and it's also just not persuasive
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to people who are undecided or
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independent because if they thought that
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they would have already decided not to
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vote for him right right so I think
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there's a missed opportunity there what
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does the word why does that an effective
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word over deplorables seem seem delst
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and rude and yeah it's also just I think
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it's not as um it's not as
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judgmental um I think that we all know
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weird people that we accept M so it's a
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way of of saying hey you're not like us
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without saying you know you're less than
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us right got that so one of the things
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she did I thought effectively it seemed
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to work when she was listing a bunch of
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things they were doing and then she's
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like they're out of their damn Minds the
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way she talked how talk about that that
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was effective I think maybe it wasn't
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but I felt it was what did you think was
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effective about that I'm curious cuz I
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because I've heard regular people say it
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like when someone you're at work and
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your boss does something and you're like
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they're out of their damn mind like you
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can feel everybody feels good about
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talking like it doesn't feel really rude
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yeah it it so it sounds like in part
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it's validating what some people are
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already
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feeling as and I think it's also at some
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level I I don't know I don't know how
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far I would go with this Cara but part
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of me hears that language and thinks
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okay we're tired of all of this trying
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to reason through and rationalize the
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you know the appeal of trump right how
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many articles were written in 2016 and
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2017
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well actually you know it's it's not X Y
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or Z that you hate it's it's really you
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know people are feeling you know that
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economic precarity and you know they
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feel seen by Trump it's like no some of
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this is just ridiculous and unacceptable
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let's not legitimate it right yeah so
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what is the what is her best quality and
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the one you think is problematic for her
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possibly problem and and the same with
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him okay so I think her best quality
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right now um is momentum mhm freshh
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energy uh I think that's that's what
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we're all riding on mhm uh I think her
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her biggest challenge is a lot of people
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don't think they know what she stands
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for they're either proxying Biden's
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policies as hers or they're saying I I
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don't really know what her principles
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are I don't know what she's going to try
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to implement yeah I call it comml
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curious in a positive way that's a great
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way to frame it yeah um I I do think she
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handled that really effectively in Her
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speech when she talked about Israel's
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right to exist but also how you know
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some of the Israeli government actions
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in you know in Gaza were unacceptable
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and how Palestine has a right to
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self-determination too I thought she
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walked that line very effectively in a
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way that frankly very few people have
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done it was you know I I took I looked
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at and each sentence was strong right it
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was so it felt like everybody was
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addressed but it didn't feel like she
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was modulating wimpy right that that's
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how I took it too and I I think those
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kinds of messages will probably be
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helpful in the next two months I I
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probably wouldn't debate Trump at this
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point I think oh well he might not he's
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trying yeah he it looks like he's
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waffling but I don't see a lot of upside
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for her do you I do I do CU he she could
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get him to say something terrible like
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one more terrible thing I mean how how
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many more do we need though I think she
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could get him to say something very
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terrible do you really think okay let's
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assume she could do it yeah do you
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really think there's anything he could
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say at this point that would
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hurt his candidacy there are several
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words he could say about her and about
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people of color yes everyone's talked
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about him saying those words but him
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saying them in a public setting is a
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very different situation it's super ugly
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it's like B bu Conor if if you could get
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him into a Bull Connor moment that would
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be effective if he could say something
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terrible about women not nasty woman
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something worse and he's called her
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worse names yeah you could yes there are
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words and you think her ability to think
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on her feet and her prosecutor
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experience will allow her to De bait him
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in a way that other people have tried
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and failed not so much well she's good
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at it that's that she has the skills
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certainly but I think the her very being
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offends him I do think what was
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interesting to me recently is he keeps
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attacking walls who doesn't matter even
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though he's totally appealing but he
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never attacks her like he attacks walls
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and I'm like oh you think you're running
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against walls it doesn't matter like
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he's just an extra added cherry on the
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top of this happy Fest right he's not
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like he matters but he doesn't matter
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kind of thing yeah I I think part of his
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strategy is he throws a lot of things
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against the wall to see what sticks and
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walls is a new Target yeah right KLA
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Harris is not entirely new he's he's
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been dealing with her over the course of
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the Biden presidency okay go to his
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negatives and positives very quickly
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yeah well look I think one thing that
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he's doing effectively and it it bothers
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me to my core that this is effective is
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he's continuing to delegitimate all the
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sources of credibility that would call
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into question his competence and his
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character right so you can't trust the
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media they fake news it has created I
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think some lingering questions in the
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minds of people who would otherwise in a
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different era have said you know what we
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got to move on this guy is not qualified
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to
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lead and what about negative qualities I
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think on the negative side beyond what
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we've already talked about I think he's
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he seems to be even more undisciplined
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than he was before um there isn't a
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semblance of his strategy right now and
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for somebody who's as effective at
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communicating on the fly as he is you
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would expect a little bit more focus and
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not rambling well one of the things
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could be age and it's interesting that
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the media is not covering his obvious
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cognitive deficits now you wrote about
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President Biden a column in New York
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Times back in July shortly before he
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stepped aside you talked about how there
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was a group think happening with no one
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being honest about the reality of the
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situation um this is pretty common in
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politics and business particularly with
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a powerful controlling leader um what
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how do you first of all what do you see
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as the best way to communicate get
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people to see TR or reality and tell me
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why you decided to write that I thought
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I was surprised and also thought it was
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terrific oh thank you why were you
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surprised uh because you don't seem to
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go you're not a limb goer you know what
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I mean like I can see George Clooney
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doing it but although I was inspired by
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George cloney actually I was like huh I
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was too this is going to cost you right
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like and and calling him we we gotten
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Scott and I got in trouble for saying he
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should step aside a lot um so talk a
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little bit about why you did that and
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what the best way to get out of group
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think happening I just thought it was an
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interesting take on what was happening
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there all right yeah I'll start with a
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why so I don't think about this from a
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cost benefit perspective I think about
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it more in terms of is is this an issue
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where I have unique expertise to bring
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to the table right and so I I don't
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weigh in on a lot of politics because I
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don't I don't think it's a social
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scientist I'm adding value there but in
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this case you know he's making a
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leadership decision yeah and I'm
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watching him first of all fall in the
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escalation of commitment trap where he's
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throwing good money after bad and
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digging his heels in when he should be
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doing a a cleare eyed analysis of what
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are my odds of winning and how much am I
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hurting the Congressional races down the
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ticket which took way too long to happen
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in my view and so I thought okay there's
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an analysis waiting to be done there
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that actually brings you know evidence
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from organizational psychology to the
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table I have something to say here and
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nobody else is talking about it and then
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you know in terms of how to get out of
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that kind of situation um I think that
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unfortunately
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what you need is you know a group of
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people who are committed to principles
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larger than you know just accusing the
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leader so you know if I'm if I'm talking
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to team Biden you know back in July the
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first conversation I'm having with them
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is is your goal to make Biden feel good
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about you and solidify that relationship
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or is your goal for Trump to lose the
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election and if you focus on that latter
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goal it becomes a lot easier to be
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candid right I think too many people are
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doing the political calculus and this is
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what You' see in the research group
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think is people ask well you know is
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this going to help me or hurt me and
00:13:04
what you want is not a logic of
00:13:05
consequences as Jim March first put it
00:13:07
but a logic of appropriateness of what
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should a person like me do in a
00:13:12
situation like this what's the right
00:13:13
thing to do and there's no question
00:13:14
there the right thing to do is to
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challenge him and get him to recognize
00:13:18
the very real possibility that he's he's
00:13:21
basically driving a sinking ship so only
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one person did that very effectively
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Nancy Pelosi and she said it she goes my
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goal is to defeat Trump and
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unfortunately our relationship is the
00:13:34
you know the collateral damage
00:13:35
essentially you had a great conversation
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with Nancy Pelosi about that I think she
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was the only person who did it
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effectively
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publicly I I heard from a bunch of
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people who had private conversations
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with Biden I even got one note from
00:13:48
somebody who said I used your article as
00:13:50
a template for how to talk to him I said
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you could have just called me we know
00:13:54
each other yeah but they wouldn't have
00:13:56
called me and I had to write to them in
00:13:59
the pages of the New York Times which
00:14:00
was a hot moment for me but I guess
00:14:02
you've experienced that many times many
00:14:04
times how how how do you get a leader to
00:14:07
do that because you know here you are
00:14:08
you finally got to the presidency after
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all these years you do have cognitive
00:14:12
issues right you're you're like stubborn
00:14:14
as a personality before you were older
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um and it only it only you know
00:14:20
calcifies I think in people's their
00:14:22
personalities calcify essentially yeah
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my my impression from talking to people
00:14:26
who were close to Biden around this was
00:14:28
that the Legacy conversation was
00:14:30
effective that getting him to think
00:14:32
about how he wanted to be remembered and
00:14:33
also following the footsteps of George
00:14:35
Washington who walked away from Power um
00:14:38
not wanting to take that third term when
00:14:40
the people around him were encouraging
00:14:41
him to do it I think that precedent was
00:14:43
very powerful I think you know a lot of
00:14:46
people focused on the loss message which
00:14:48
was not effective um he did not want to
00:14:50
believe that he was not the best person
00:14:52
to beat Trump and so reframing that is a
00:14:54
gain and and this comes right out of the
00:14:56
evidence on how to get people to
00:14:57
deescalate their commitment um was was
00:14:59
effective in in getting him to say okay
00:15:01
there's actually upside here right I can
00:15:03
pass the torch I can solidify my legacy
00:15:06
I can Elevate the Next Generation I can
00:15:08
lift up a woman of color for a shot at
00:15:10
the presidency I think those arguments
00:15:12
landed and that that is very much what
00:15:14
we see outside of the Oval Office is if
00:15:16
you're going to have that kind of
00:15:17
conversation with a leader in power um
00:15:20
you you have to help them recognize that
00:15:22
they're compromised in their judgment
00:15:24
that they're obviously going to be
00:15:25
looking for information that convinces
00:15:27
them that they're going to win and
00:15:28
discount anything that would lead them
00:15:30
to lose so I would have gotten him to
00:15:33
pre-commit to say okay they they group
00:15:35
of people I trust or there're a group of
00:15:37
polls that I would be willing to trust
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and if the polls you know hit a certain
00:15:41
level then yes I will step aside right
00:15:43
now that's difficult I was just reading
00:15:45
there was a excerpt from a new book
00:15:47
about the Twitter takeover and a lot of
00:15:49
it was about uh people who knew better
00:15:52
this was particularly around the blue
00:15:54
roll out which wasn't going to work and
00:15:55
a lot of us said this like come on um in
00:15:59
Al that knew that and continued tried to
00:16:02
say it and then couldn't and there was
00:16:04
all these people that how to cope with
00:16:05
the leader you know who was different
00:16:08
one-on-one versus in a group where they
00:16:10
had to feel dominant in a group some
00:16:12
situations are impossible correct that
00:16:14
you can't because it's their you know
00:16:16
it's their pop stand and so they're
00:16:17
going to do what they want it it is
00:16:19
frustrating how much of this rests on
00:16:21
the shoulders of a leader right to to
00:16:23
not only ask for dissenting views but to
00:16:26
prove that they can handle the truth if
00:16:28
you have a leader that doesn't do that
00:16:29
yeah I think you're going out on a limb
00:16:31
there I think the first thing you could
00:16:33
do is you know is just say I'm worried
00:16:35
that people are not going to be honest
00:16:36
with you because they care a lot about
00:16:38
your approval and your opinion you know
00:16:40
it has real weight around here can we do
00:16:42
an anonymous PLL and sometimes that's
00:16:44
enough if the leader's open to it um I
00:16:47
think to your point it's a lot easier to
00:16:49
have trust one-on-one than it is in a
00:16:51
large group setting and so I would try
00:16:53
to catch the leader before or afterward
00:16:55
U but easier said than done you know I
00:16:57
think that that weak leaders shoot the
00:17:00
messenger I think that strong leaders
00:17:02
praise the messenger but truly great
00:17:05
leaders promote the messenger and I
00:17:07
don't think we have enough leaders doing
00:17:08
that no not any actually in my
00:17:10
experience I don't know anyway um it's a
00:17:13
really interesting we'll see what
00:17:13
happens um I do think one of the things
00:17:16
I I will say about KLA Harris having
00:17:18
spent a lot of time with her is she
00:17:19
really does try to listen to a lot of
00:17:22
opinions I I I I was always struck by
00:17:24
that about her she'd always have me in
00:17:25
and say what's the worst thing here
00:17:27
what's the you know very much like a
00:17:29
lawyer would like what what can I get
00:17:31
hit with what can I and it wasn't so
00:17:32
much political it was more like
00:17:34
challenge me so I can make a better
00:17:36
argument it was interesting she's a
00:17:37
really interesting that's encouraging
00:17:39
yeah it was it was and I was always like
00:17:41
oh you're [ __ ] on that one you know
00:17:43
and she welcomed it and she I didn't say
00:17:45
she welcomed him but she she wasn't
00:17:46
pretending it wasn't true anyway um
00:17:49
that's that's what good I think that's
00:17:51
what good leaders do collect all kind
00:17:52
and then make a decision even if it's
00:17:54
wrong
