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keep going for Big Balls Tesla do sexy LLC and Big Balls two things I am very
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sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and [Music]
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podcast hi everyone this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the VOX media podcast Network I'm Cara swisser Scott
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is off today who knows where he is but in his place we have summon so much better Katie Drummond the global
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editorial director of wired wired has always been a Powerhouse but particular in the ear of trump Elon and Doge which
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I'm calling doggy now and its coverage uh has become required reading Katie
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welcome you've had a busy couple weeks with all these scoops on doggy which uh led to a record-breaking increase in
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subscriptions we'll get to that in a second but welcome thank you for coming thank you so much for having me I am
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also in a mysterious location but I'm not going to tell you where I am either okay all right well you're here at least
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as opposed to whatever the hell Scott's doing taking Edibles and not skiing wherever he is um so I want to talk a
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little bit because you guys have really come on strong here now let tell me about your approach to covering this
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Administration now you became Global editorial director relatively recently right is that correct uh yes time is a
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funny thing these days but it was about a year and a half ago it was September 2023 um I got the job I started and and
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actually the second my second day on the job I emailed my boss my boss is Anna
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wour um MH that must be fun it's it's actually delightful she's amazing um and
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I said I need to hire a politics team and here's why and here's what I want to do so it was I I'm happy to talk more
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about it but it was sort of from from inception I think looking ahead at 2024
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which was obviously a critical election year for the United States and for so many other countries around the world at
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the time in my head it was much more about uh generative AI Miss and
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disinformation um you know hacking um and those sort of
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tech adjac adjacencies to politics I wasn't I wasn't thinking well obviously
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Elon Musk is going to jump in um and end up like sleeping at the White House like that wasn't on my radar at the time um
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but but certainly our coverage has evolved uh a great deal since then and why would you have that instinct because
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of AI around the world regulatory issues you know the the that was the the the
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focus was that everybody's going to be focused in on what AI means and the governments including AI was a major
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Catalyst at the time and I think my feeling was you know wired covers a lot I think wired being described as like a
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tech Outlet is is is incorrect and sort of misses the forest for the trees but you can't
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separate technology from politics anymore and so it just felt like we we had the tech industry coverage we had
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the consumer Tech coverage we had the science coverage we had all this other coverage but we were missing this really
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important piece over here that made made everything kind of click together like you can't cover artificial
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intelligence without looking at well how is it being used in elections how is it being regulated how are politicians
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talking about this technology um so it just felt like we needed that political expertise on the team so when did you
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sort of get the idea that that you should really look at Doge because I think it's really I mean I'm feeling
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like how did they get into this us a where did you get the you know all the stuff that you're getting and the
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identities and information about all these people that were working for it because that that that's years of of beat reporting
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essentially I mean I I was trying to figure it out I'm like wow they were up to speed rather quickly and rather
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accurately on what's Happening what was the what was the strategy there I I would love to say it was years of beat
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reporting because I that is something that I believe in and that is something we have implemented at wired is the notion of each reporter owns a beat we
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believe in iterative reporting so what that means essentially for someone who doesn't work in journalism is you sort
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of break off pieces of a story you publish what you're able to confirm at any given time and that reporting Builds
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on itself and builds and builds and builds you don't wait I think it was over the summer um when when now
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president Trump was shot in the ear you remember those the photos the raising the fist these sort of iconic images um
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that I said to the staff there is a very good chance that this person is president again there's a very good
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chance that he wins because that was such a seminal moment in this election and and shortly after was was when Elon
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jumped in endorsed Trump and really started like running into that campaign
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with you know I think something like $280 million ultimately in contributions um and obviously a lot of of uh
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contribution via his megaphone um on X that he uses um so it was at that moment
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that we knew we had to really focus on Elon Musk and we had to really focus on Trump as probable president-elect and so
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at that at that point you we ultimately assigned someone to cover Elon Musk in
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government like Elon Musk as political operative that is your beat that is what you own so that was in July so you know
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we had a lot of of lead time to start sourcing up because it was over the summer that we said everybody here no
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matter what you cover in some way shape or form what you cover will be impacted by a trump Administration so you need to
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start working on that now and and people did I mean they did and so we were we were prepared I think in large part
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because of that and then I think in large part because we have journalists on the team including Zoe shiffer who
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joined us uh in January who knows a lot about Elon Musk I mean she wrote a whole book about him uh acquiring Twitter so I
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think we had the the political aspect of it staffed up and and running we had the
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tech industry coverage and the sort of expertise on Elon and when you combine all of that together really forcefully
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which I think we're we're very good at being very forceful we just ran at that story like we ran at
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that story that's interesting that you forceful because I get what you're doing
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because we've done it we did it previously at all things D with Uber or Yahoo whatever the story was it's nothing like this story I'll tell you
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this is quite I wouldn't even know what to do with this story but um talk about forcefulness because it's really important to have an editor who
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is you're a critical part of this I as I know because I've been there like not on this big a story but talk about the idea
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of forcefulness and aggression in doing that and not in a negative way no I love
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forcefulness and aggression I mean I um gosh that's such an interesting
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question I just I think that I am a a forceful and relatively aggressive
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person um and I think that my enthusiasm for news and for Scoops comes through very loudly and
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very clearly to the team and I think it has since I started the job and made it very clear what we were here to do which
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was to interrogate power structures within the tech industry like that is what I'm
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interested in doing and another thing is people do try to stop you do You' personally feel pressure um when you or
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or do you feel that you have to pull back anyway I've noticed a pullback among certain people uh no for sure no
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no and it's and it's not even some grandiose notion that I have I am I mean
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I remember when we published that one of one of our first stories naming several of these young engineers and and it was
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an explosive story we got a we got a lot of criticism
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and and and it's not that I was surprised by any of it but I just hadn't like the the idea of softening that
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story had not even entered my mind and I don't say that to to brag um I I say it
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because we're just like this is the job like this is my this is I get paid to do this like this is my job I take my job
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very seriously I love what I do um but I have not thought for a second that we
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should soften anything that we're doing I think what we owe our audience is very
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clear very transparent like very direct coverage and explanations of exactly
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what is happening as we are able to learn it and confirm it like that's all we're doing that's that's it yeah exactly one of the things that was the
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Texs were so disingenuous you know you're you're saying who they are you were not saying little pricks or
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anything else you know you were I I was saying that but um but you you were very clearly just saying this is who's
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working on this stuff this is the federal government it deserves transparency and those attacks were disingenuous I mean they he he attacked
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uh El attacked Scott and I for being mean to them or something like that it was just it's part of a narrative they
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have trying to get on how these poor kids how dare you attack these poor kids right I mean the notion that there is something illegal about
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naming individuals working within federal agencies at the beest of Elon Musk
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is nonsense like I just I don't even I don't even understand what that means yeah exactly and those stories were
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anything so let's go into some of these stories because I think it's really people are sort of it's a breathtaking level of Scoops I have to say it's
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really and I think a lot of people are doing a great job now and what's interesting is they've they've stepped
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up since you stepped up it actually creates a creates an energy around the coverage itself which I think is I've
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noticed just today I saw about three stories elsewhere and I was like this would only be because W's been so
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aggressive I appreciate that and stuff but you can feel it you can feel it but people were slow to the to the idea of
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what's Happening here so it's been a month since Trump took office there's a lot happening in the land of Doge doggy
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as I say so let's dig in uh one tracking thing we learned this week Elon musk's apparently not in charge of doggy uh the
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White House said in a court filing that Elon Musk is not the US doggy service administrator I'm sorry to say it that
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way but I'm going to keep doing it he's an employee in the White House Office akin to a senior adviser talk a little
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bit about this um and I'm going to go into some of your stories too but talk about um about what you thought is this
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the loopi of loopholes the White House can stay out of legal trouble several States attorney generals argued in a
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suit last week that Elon is wielding power that can only be held by elected officials and people confirmed by the Senate but a federal judge ruled there
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isn't enough evidence for imminent irreparable harm to justify a temporary restraining order that this is a legal
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nicity they make the judge also expressed questions about what the White
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House was doing yes uh questions is isn't quite taking it far enough I don't think at this point but uh I'm not a
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judge um so my understanding of this I mean first of all it is just it is chaos
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across the board it's like wait sorry the president of the United States
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has been saying for months that Elon Musk is in charge of Doge that he runs
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Doge he's in charge of Doge elon's doing this thing elon's making these decisions
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all of a sudden in a court filing we now have the White House saying oh no no no no no no no he's just like
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helping out he's just helping the president that is just first of all
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total chaos second of all my understanding of that sworn statement
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just to be clear it is a sworn statement is that essentially that allows Elon to
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continue doing what Elon is doing Within These federal agencies and within Doge without facing legal ramifications for
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overstepping in a role that to what you just said ought to be an elected
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position like he ought to have had to be elected or confirmed in some way shape
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or form um instead he just walked right in the front door and I think what they are trying to do is avoid any legal
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scenario where he needs to stop down what he is working on so why publish a story this week
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about a law that could possibly stop some of uh doggy's actions explain that explain what you're doing cuz you are
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building you're building a case right in your own way in a journalistic way yeah I think trying to you know there have
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been so many lawsuits at this point filed about what doge is doing what several of them have in common is that
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they rely on this Watergate era law the Privacy Act um that essentially prevents
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government employees from accessing Americans data in a variety of different
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ways so it essentially is designed to safeguard very sensitive information about the American people from uh agents
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within the US government and so essentially we have lawsuits saying you know everything that's happening here sort of the access that Doge appears to
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have Within These agencies is a violation of this Privacy
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Act that was instituted you know several decades ago um you know whether that actually succeeds in any or all of these
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lawsuits is an open question and I think one thing that's interesting to me and I think troubling to me is that you know
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that argument could succeed in in one instance let's say a lawsuit with regards to access in the treasury
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Department and it could fail in another instance so let's say access to IRS data
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right so you have this sort of like Band-Aid slap Dash approach to trying to
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just like stop Doge from accessing as much data as possible but how do you how do
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you stop them from accessing data wholesale and sort of like a holistic level um I don't think we have an answer
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to that we have an answer and these lawsuits and do you have a legal reporter cover how do you how do you
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because I think the lawsuits will reveal a lot but it's the slowest way of dealing with a very difficult situation
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it's it's the slowest way and certainly it opens up questions about whether or not the administration decides to abide
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by the rulings of the courts right I mean I think that's an existential question for the country um you know we don't have a legal reporter we just have
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really really smart security politics reporters and you know a ma a team of
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managers on top of them who are the smartest journalists I've ever worked with and we make a lot of phone calls so
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we talk to a lot of experts who know this stuff inside and out and can essentially help us translate all of
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that information for the audience to make it as easy as possible for people to understand you know what what is
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happening and what potential safeguards exist to prevent it from happening so you use the word chaos a lot um it's
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important this is this is one of elon's f signature moves chaos to create chaos
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or create trouble and then make accusation he's got six or seven moves including attacking you for revealing
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the names for example but chaos is the point here I think in many ways so that everyone has to run around and do these
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Band-Aid approaches yeah it's interesting too because chaos um is also a signature move of of President Trump
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and so we're sort of seeing chaos in a big picture way across the entire federal government the entire
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Federal apparatus Doge being one pocket of chaos that like sits within the
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larger chaos umbrella so it's just like chaos everywhere you look um and I I
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actually think my sort of theory is that at least some of the chaos being created
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by the Trump Administration in a big picture way is distracting people from
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like the nitty-gritty Doge chaos that's happening inside of all of these agencies in this in this sort of
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simultaneous and concurrent way so I actually think like a lot of the you know it's like the the Gulf of America
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all of the the craziness about Gulf of distraction yeah the Dei stuff as as as
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awful as it is I think these are you know Canada is the 51st state like these are
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distractions while 25-year-old Engineers who interned at SpaceX are trying to
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obtain administrative access to very sensitive systems that contain data about millions of Americans can you give
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people a sense of of why they want that I have I have a theory but what is your
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what what is their need for getting that to get to the data that's a really good
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question if I had an answer to that question I would be publishing a story um I mean if if you say that they want
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to train AI on American data I will smile and laugh and freak out um
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although I I certainly wouldn't wouldn't put it past them I mean I just I think that that Elon Musk
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wants complete and total control of the entire Federal infrastructure and
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apparatus I think that sort of that's what the driving force is here I don't think he's in it for his contracts I
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don't think he's in it to like make Tesla a more successful company I think he's in it to run the thing the way he
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runs every other company in his portfolio um whether or not he wants that data to train an AI um I think is
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open question but I'm curious to hear what you think it does it does va grock ahead which is not ahead grock is not
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ahead but it VA it puts him in a poll position because there you know as you know many um AI researchers think we're
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running out of data right that that's been that that's been the big discussion recently well there you go and you're
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right he does but what for what purpose does he want to run it that's the that's the part that's going to be very
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difficult to report um when you're thinking about it in that big a term and and you have a better sense of his psychology than I do
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um but there certainly seems to be something very very deeply buried inside
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of him that just wants to run everything I mean it's just feels like pure ego or he wants to go to Mars and he needs the
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government to do so there's all kinds of theories on that so let's talk about the the the relationship you mentioned between Donald Trump and Elam mus they
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sat down for a joint interview with Shan Hannity the house uh the House reporter there at the White House um uh and I
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mean that in a negative way um hany felt uh said he felt like he was interviewing two brothers uh Hannity it was the
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biggest wet kiss he licked them up and down the entire time Elon shared how much money he's trying to cut from the
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deficit let's listen the overall goal is to try to get a trillion dollars out of
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the deficit and if we if we if the deficit is not brought under control America will go bankrupt this is a very important thing for people to understand
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um a country is no different from an individual in that if an individual overspends an individual can go bankrupt
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and so can a country God that's the idiot's guide to how countries are running but um that's not correct that's
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not correct but well Doge says it saved $55 billion in federal spending so far the actual data shows it's much less um
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one major error found on the Do the doggy website it mislabeled the contract is 8 billion when it was actually 8
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million you all have been doing a lot of reporting around this this idea of what
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um the the cuts that are being made and NPR just did one showing the same thing that this this is not $55 billion um uh
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and of course now they're also talking about sending people dividend checks which is trying to make people happy
00:19:05
with them and allowing them to keep doing what they're doing it's that it's come rather early the payoff has come
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rather early but um talk a little bit about this and what they're what these young people are trying to do and are
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there more of them moving into the space now that it's gotten momentum moving into Doge yes yeah from everything we
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can tell you know doge is expanding I mean the the budget for Doge I think
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last week expanded um to the tune of several million dollars which which
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strongly suggests that they are onboarding more Personnel that they're bringing more people in um not exactly
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um a model of efficiency themselves uh if they continue at this at this rate um
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but you know essentially what we have been able to establish like there's a pattern to what they are doing right so
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they they gain access to an agency they gain access to in particular I think
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system that contain you know Personnel files Personnel data about you know who
00:20:04
is who is a probationary employee for example right so that someone as as the Trump Administration recently changed
00:20:10
the rules around this someone who is um I think like in a they made the probationary period one year instead of
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two years I think which basically allowed them to fire more people um so they're going into these agencies
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obtaining data about about personnel and salaries and then they are just you know
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pushing through sweeping layoffs of hundreds or thousands of federal workers
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across you know every agency that you can possibly imagine and sort of a new one every day right I think that has
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become like the repeat sort of Mad Libs version of these stories is doge is now
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inside X agency doing y layoffs like that's that is the story the reality
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though is first of all to indiscriminately fire thousands of civil
00:20:57
servants without really having an in-depth understanding of what each of what they do what it even means to be in
00:21:04
a probationary period because that also applies to someone who was recently promoted so you have people who have been 10 20 30 year government workers
00:21:13
who were just lumped into this probationary worker category and fired
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first of all so there's that whole hot mess Express over there but when the rubber hits the road like when you look
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at the math like when you do the numbers firing a bunch of civil servants isn't
00:21:30
going to get you a trillion dollars like that's not where the money is and so you have these sort of these big promises
00:21:37
these sweeping claims about savings from like we cut this contract we don't subscribe to political Pro anymore look
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at us go look at all the people that we firing that doesn't actually add up to that much money and so I think the the
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question is like where are you planning on finding the other like $ 92 billion
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doar that you need to find right to get to a trillion dollar when you um uh uh
00:22:02
when you looking at who is doing this it's indiscriminate because they're also inexperienced um the the vetting of
00:22:08
these people who are doing this is also you're doing the vetting wired is doing
00:22:13
the vetting is and a lot of them have sort of what I'm not surprised by but typical obnoxious Tech bro behaviors you
00:22:20
know in terms of being on certain sites doing certain things yeah wired is doing the vetting to to the credit of so many
00:22:25
other journalists too I mean other other new news organizations um you know Wall Street Journal very notably um Bloomberg
00:22:33
have been been breaking some really important stories about some of these individuals as well I think one thing
00:22:39
that's important to note is sort of how this recruiting appears to have happened in the first place so we published a
00:22:44
story I think 10 days ago about um you know essentially like former interns at
00:22:50
uh at companies like SpaceX or paler going to online forums for alumni of
00:22:56
those internship programs or of those companies and basically doing like a spray and prey like Hey guys does anyone
00:23:01
want to save the federal government like DM me and we'll get you like onboarded with Doge so that appears to have been
00:23:08
you know the very sort of elite handpicked recruiting process was actually just you know posting in in
00:23:14
message boards um from there it's relatively unclear what kind of vetting actually happened or whether there was
00:23:20
an interview process whether there were background checks security clearances I mean we published a story about one of
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these guys um who goes by big balls we've all heard about big balls everyone
00:23:31
has talked a lot about big balls but you know we talked to several I think three or four different experts who said it is
00:23:37
very unlikely that this guy would ever pass a security clearance to walk into a
00:23:44
federal agency like it would not happen this guy has been involved in not criminal Enterprises but at the very
00:23:50
least like criminally adjacent Enterprises he has you know he's running
00:23:56
you know web domains out of Russia like he is doing all sorts of really bizarre
00:24:02
um sketchy stuff that would raise serious red flags with someone doing a background check before allowing a a new
00:24:10
federal yeah I mean it's just it's it's this sort of like Reckless disregard for
00:24:15
any standards in terms of who you're bringing in and explain why he wants those young people to do it I I
00:24:22
know why because older people wouldn't well because they have older people wouldn't I think look there is this as
00:24:28
you know very well the cult of Elon right and I think for a lot of young men in the technology space what he is doing
00:24:36
and everything that he does and the way he lives his life the way he communicates online he's he's an icon he's an idol I
00:24:43
mean they look up to him and they are very malleable and pliable and they will
00:24:48
go into these agencies and do as told because they are doing it for Elon they are doing it for for this larger cause
00:24:54
this notion of saving the United States I would imagine for a 19-year-old who
00:25:00
you know runs a company called Tesla do sexy LLC probably thinks this is a pretty
00:25:07
exciting adventure to be hon with it is it is it is and yeah older people just wouldn't do they do have older people as you've noted and others have reported
00:25:14
very sophisticated lawyers and everything else um as so someone who's not hiding is discussed for Elon uh is
00:25:20
Steve Bannon which is interesting Bannon called Elon I think uh this week a parasitic illegal immigrant though he
00:25:26
did complement Doge um and he said Elon wants to play act as God he does seem to
00:25:31
be a fan as I said of doa's work he told CNN let's listen elon's doing some great work you know I'm a huge supporter of uh
00:25:38
the deconstruction administrative State and what elon's doing in um in Doge I'm a big supporter of that I hope and my
00:25:45
prayer is is that these cuts are real so Bannon later called out Elon Mark Zuckerberg and Jeff bezo says oligarchs
00:25:51
who don't support the magga movement what is going on here I think he would turn and be Pals with Elon in 5 seconds
00:25:57
no question with this guy my best guess here is that Steve Bannon is outside of the Inner Circle and wishes he was
00:26:05
inside of the Inner Circle right and has sort of been supplanted by Elon Musk I mean I think it's interesting to compare
00:26:12
that Time Magazine cover with Bannon from the first Trump Administration to now Elon you know in that very iconic
00:26:18
Time cover from a couple weeks ago um you know I he's sitting in front of the Resolute desk yeah I think that that
00:26:24
Steve Bannon is sort of on the outside looking in um probably wishing that he
00:26:29
was part of the club that's my best guess right right right and try that's what those compliments for what when you
00:26:35
think about those who are pushing back there are there really true people pushing back and what can be done
00:26:40
obviously Scott makes fun of the people the Democrats standing in front of agencies and yelling um but you know
00:26:46
there is something to protest obviously is there is there real push back within the within the government and within
00:26:53
technology circles they just seem to be quitting that's what it looks like a lot of the techies who are in there are Le leaving yeah I I wish I could say that
00:27:00
we were seeing signs of some really um coherent strategic effort on the part of
00:27:07
the Democrats on the part of you know leaders Within These agencies to push back on what was happening or prevent it
00:27:12
from happening that's not what I'm seeing I don't think that's what our reporting indicates I don't think that
00:27:17
that we're seeing that play out I think what we're seeing to your point are you know politicians standing up outside of
00:27:24
of offices in DC and and making a fuss and making noise which fine I mean even just the visibility of that I think
00:27:30
having those clips on social media there's there's value there uh obviously we're seeing you know people take to the
00:27:37
streets and protest in I think relatively small numbers at this point if I'm being totally honest and I also
00:27:43
don't think the Trump Administration gives two shits whether people are taking to the streets and protesting in relatively small numbers um and then we
00:27:49
we are seeing you know career civil servants people in very senior positions Within These agencies Walk we're seeing
00:27:57
them walk public right they're not being shy about why they're leaving and I completely understand that
00:28:04
for someone who has been in a position like that and who can no longer I think
00:28:10
with Integrity hold the office that they hold that the only choice they they feel they have is to leave on the flip side
00:28:16
though what that means is it just became that much easier for Elon Musk and president Trump and all of these you
00:28:23
know leaders Within These federal agencies to uh put someone else in these
00:28:28
big jobs who will be malleable who will be pliant and who will execute according
00:28:34
to musk and Trump's demands so so that's essentially what that means they just they just opened up the head count and
00:28:39
and that's that's a good thing yeah am among the biggest people is the Cyber people they're terribly worried I that's
00:28:46
the ones who are sort of sounding the alarms um in terms of the the porousness of what's Happening Here
00:28:51
yeah all right we're going to a quick break we come back more uh more about do Central and wirs of reporting Katie
00:28:59
we're back there's obviously been a lot of questions you mentioned about conflicts of interest since Elon came to Washington I agree I don't think his big
00:29:05
thing is to make money although he doesn't mind doing it um what and he's supported like he's he's using threats
00:29:10
to to push X he's using threats to this and that he's doing the typical Shakedown kind of thing that can happen
00:29:19
um W has done some new reporting on SpaceX Engineers the FAA they're also putting his people within the FAA and
00:29:27
also apparently president Trump's trying to get him to figure out why he doesn't have his jet like he's putting him on that too um talk about that I'll note
00:29:34
SpaceX launches are regulated by the FAA and the agency has alleged that SpaceX violated safety rules in the past many
00:29:40
times um talk a little bit about this story today or this week yeah so oh I
00:29:46
mean and and as someone who travels by airplane frequently and takes a lot of Xanax to do it um I have to say this
00:29:52
line of reporting has been particularly stressful for me as a human being um you know so we've identified several um
00:30:00
SpaceX Engineers who were onboarded uh into the FAA this week uh even as you
00:30:07
know the Secretary of Transportation Shan Duffy I think on Monday said we've got some Engineers from SpaceX they're
00:30:13
taking a tour of some facilities sort of like nothing to see here me meanwhile
00:30:18
they were actually being onboarded as employees of the fa um and so these are these are Engineers um I think it it's
00:30:25
important to be very clear that these these are people with legitimate qualifications right I'm not talking about 19-year-olds who have you know
00:30:32
completed decided to put up a rocket yeah right um these are people who you know work at SpaceX like they make
00:30:38
rockets go into the sky and then come down um but there are obviously you know
00:30:43
several concerns or issues with regards to the FAA right now one is that you know Doge just fired I think several
00:30:50
hundred FAA workers in a moment where it's it's very clear that the FAA has
00:30:56
been understaffed and and Spread Way Too Thin for far too long right there have been alarm Bells sounded about that for
00:31:02
a very long time so the notion that we would be reducing staff within that agency is stressful to begin with
00:31:09
there's also just the reality as you just pointed out that the FAA oversees
00:31:14
SpaceX and has fined SpaceX several times for safety violations so the idea
00:31:21
that you would have Engineers from a company that is regulated by the agency
00:31:27
that they now work for going in to try to quote fix that agency is one enormous
00:31:35
and very stressful conflict of interest I I I just find the idea of you know
00:31:41
someone with experience relevant to SpaceX going in to fix the agency that
00:31:48
also overseas and governs you know commercial Aviation that's a that's genuinely a very scary Prospect to me
00:31:54
yeah and it's happening all over the government obviously you guys have been reporting on that and again what where
00:32:00
who's running SpaceX and and Twitter and all these other obviously Steve Davis who's been a very active musk minion
00:32:07
what is the point here of putting them there just for eyes I assume eyes and ears yeah I think eyes and ears and
00:32:14
marching orders right I mean they're there to carry out elon's elon's asks
00:32:20
even though he is ostensibly apparently not in charge of Doge I think we all know that that's you
00:32:26
know that's a lie it's an interesting characterization um that doesn't seem reflected in what's act actually going
00:32:32
on I mean I look I think they're the adults in the room I think they're there to act as the authority within a handful
00:32:38
of different agencies and get these young operatives where they need to be what's the impact on the companies
00:32:44
Because by the way Tesla's not doing great by the way they're not you know but what what is what is the what is
00:32:51
happening at the companies when they pull these people out I mean as of now I think it's fair to say Tesla is not
00:32:57
doing great great but we also have situations like X being shopped around at evaluation that
00:33:03
matches what Elon paid for it a few years ago so I think it's it's hard to say what's happening at the companies
00:33:09
especially because so many of these people appear to be pulling double duty right I think we had an example a week
00:33:14
ago it was within the technology transformation Services who had kept his job um at an external company while
00:33:20
fulfilling this role for for muset federal agencies so I would not be surprising if a lot of these people pull
00:33:25
the Elon Playbook and and work several jobs at the same time at the same time so how um could he put He could put them
00:33:34
in every agency his own employees correct that he that that that are beholden to him and nobody else he he
00:33:40
could and and that's what has been going on I mean we've also seen Doge operatives I call them operatives
00:33:45
because that feels like the most accurate way to describe them like they have multiple email addresses so we have you have people working within two three
00:33:53
four agencies at any given time multiple email addresses apparently sort of
00:33:58
acting out um the asks of of musk and sort of Doge leadership across the
00:34:03
federal government at once which is uh a terrifying proposition honestly and and who is coordinating all that Elon is not
00:34:10
doing this alone who do you think is the most critical person helping him coordinate this there are a few so there
00:34:16
is um I think in particular at the office of personnel management which is
00:34:22
I think shorthand for that would be like it's like HR for the federal government there's a woman named Amanda scales who has worked for for musk before uh most
00:34:29
recently at xai and she's there as Chief of Staff so she's really sort of like running point you know what a chief of
00:34:35
staff does I mean they sort of like keep all the trains moving it's like the managing editor is the way I think of it of of the federal government so I think
00:34:42
that she is like a very critical Lynch pin in this then you also have the GSA which is the general Services
00:34:49
Administration and sort of the leaders that he has installed across those two agencies because they oversee so many
00:34:55
different branches of the federal government I mean I think that those are sort of the critical um the critical adults in the
00:35:02
room who are working across all of these different agencies from from where they
00:35:07
are stationed but I think Amanda scales is an important person to be paying attention to just in the sense that she
00:35:12
is really the operational leader working within that Ag and he always has those
00:35:19
he has those all the time that are loyal to him what people have to understand they're loyal to Elon Musk not Donald Trump these are not Trump these were not
00:35:25
Trump supporters and neither was Elon for a long time so um I want to ask you about President because what is his role
00:35:30
in here in La last week he's channeled Napoleon posting he who saves his country does not violate the law he was
00:35:36
trolling people with that um he also called himself King on Wednesday as he tried to kill congestion pricing in New
00:35:42
York that's my impression everything that we have heard from inside the administration and around the administration is that even people very
00:35:49
close to president Trump don't know what doge is doing they don't know how often to be communicating with Doge they don't
00:35:55
know what that process is supposed to look like um it sort it really feels like doge is always two or three steps
00:36:02
ahead and the actual White House the actual Administration is is behind they
00:36:08
are catching up with what doge is doing honestly it seems like as as the Press is as journalists are publishing stories
00:36:14
it sort of feels like the administration is finding out what Elon has been up to despite you know any any assurances or
00:36:21
anything that the president is saying publicly um because he has been very publicly supportive of musk and do
00:36:28
it really doesn't seem like he has any idea what's going on and frankly it doesn't really seem like he cares and
00:36:35
why do you think he's allowing this to happen wow that's a great
00:36:44
question I mean I think that he likes I think that he likes the story that he's able to tell he's telling you know US
00:36:52
citizens people who voted for him that he's cutting cost uh he's telling them that he is very close to to Tech and to
00:36:59
sort of tech leadership and to the Visionary Elon Musk I think he likes the story I think he loves the chaos I think
00:37:05
he loves the fact that doge is in the headlines 247 I think it keeps his
00:37:11
administration top of mind for people because it's it's inescapable so yeah it's a great narrative I I think he
00:37:17
likes the story I don't think he actually cares what's happening in in the details I don't think he's getting
00:37:22
into the fine print on this all right Katie let's go on a quick break and we come back we'll talk about EX's new valuation Katie we're back let's get to
00:37:29
a couple more headlines Elon Musk X is in talks to raise money from investors at a valuation of 44 billion if that
00:37:35
number sounds familiar it's because it's the same price musk bought the platform back in 2022 in December fideli
00:37:40
Investments marked down its stake in the company by 70% this follows a trend of mus company valuation soaring since he's
00:37:46
taken a significant role in the Trump Administration even if the companies are suffering such as Tesla numbers are down
00:37:52
and the price was up um X is not in the same place at was Bri
00:37:57
Elon it's small it's it's smaller it's today the Wall Street Journal published a very good story about X people
00:38:04
pressuring advertisers to get back on or else maybe they'll face an investigation or they'd add be added to a lawsuit that
00:38:10
they're doing they're using a lot of legal means to try to force advertisers onto it what is clearly a less good
00:38:15
platform uh talk about this although again it's not for him to make money is not maybe his guiding role he certainly
00:38:22
is doing it and here's a perfect example of it here's a perfect example I mean this is a platform that that to say that
00:38:29
it has seen better days would be a massive understatement um I mean it is for all intents and purposes a
00:38:35
right-wing Echo chamber it's a mess it's a terrible user experience none of the ideas that they have
00:38:41
advanced around X sound any good at all you know you could pay you could pay people on X they're going to introduce
00:38:48
audio and video um they're going to integrate it with grock AI sounds like a complete train wreck I mean none of
00:38:54
these are particularly promising ideas for the platform or the the business however Elon Musk is very close
00:39:01
to the president I mean he has that adjacency that for investors I would imagine is is very appealing and for
00:39:09
investors and advertisers you know the the sort of the implicit or direct
00:39:14
threats that are you know reportedly being made so it's it's not just that it's exciting or enticing to think that
00:39:21
they might be able to sort of get closer to the administration in curry favor with musk and Trump it's that in inst
00:39:28
instances at least with advertisers it seems like they're not really being given much of a choice they're not they're they're they are going to either
00:39:34
pay or pay or not but we're going to you're going to be in trouble um in some way I'll I'll let me read you something
00:39:40
someone I asked them about this today um uh every Advertiser this I think this
00:39:46
Dynamic is playing out that every Advertiser who knows what they're doing no media buyer indeed no marketer once their CEO gets a call from Elon Musk
00:39:53
berating them for not advertising on X it sound um it sounds uh it sounds
00:39:59
judgment to avoid by throwing some money to the company uh everything about this I low that creates bad president it puts
00:40:05
money in elon's pocket it undermines the advertising business um you know he I
00:40:11
think it's just prudent business I heard stories that the team is making veiled threats perhaps not so failed threats
00:40:17
and I think it will ultimately bite them uh someday but this is a classic story of corruption that you know it's just a
00:40:24
kind of thing like that you cannot build businesses on threats I you can't but you can actually I mean I think what is
00:40:30
disturbing to imagine is what's playing out with X right now in terms of the conflict of interests the corruption
00:40:37
advertisers bending a knee investors bending a knee everybody sort of getting in line to go along with what's
00:40:43
happening here to be clear What's Happening Here is is not okay by any measure if you extrapolate that and sort
00:40:50
of think about it across many many companies across the entire country like
00:40:56
across the United States of America like that this is what is happening to our country X is a microcosm of that right
00:41:02
but you have a lot of really wealthy really powerful people institutions
00:41:09
corporations bending a knee and saying like oh oligarchy like okay let's like
00:41:15
let's sure I guess we we're we don't have a choice so hands up we're going to
00:41:20
we're I've heard them say it to me we don't have a choice we can't do it right now we can't do anything about it is
00:41:26
there anyone else trying to take ADV obviously all the tech leaders showed up at inauguration in that Shameless uh
00:41:33
display of fty um to Trump is there anyone and I will note Tim Cook was
00:41:39
there and so was Sam Al there were sitting in the back row I I mean I think that all of the pictures I saw of Tim
00:41:44
Cook from inauguration like he looked physically ill um and and like somewhat
00:41:50
mortified but he was there but but he was there and and let history show let the photos remind everyone in four years
00:41:57
when knock on wood we have another election and the tables turn knock on wood he was there they were all there
00:42:03
Sam mman was there Sam mman obviously an incredibly opportunistic Tech executive
00:42:09
um was there and then subsequently you know polished the president's shoes while telling him how amazing his
00:42:16
leadership was going to be for AI in this country and and the world um you know Mark Zuckerberg obviously is the
00:42:23
most I think Brazen and Craven example of this and
00:42:29
I I'm I'm speechless at that one because I think it is so I mean it's it's it's it's nauseating
00:42:37
it's nauseating and again I think really importantly with all of these Tech Executives what's very important for the
00:42:44
media and for press and and for everybody to remember as the years go by
00:42:50
and more there's more and more chaos and and we're doing more and more when the dust settles don't for forget that they
00:42:58
were all there don't forget what Mark Zuckerberg did to his company to appease
00:43:05
the president of the United States the the influence that meta's platforms have on Millions if not billions of people
00:43:13
don't forget what he did to appease the administration I think that that's really important because so much is
00:43:18
happening every day it's been a month it's been is there is there is there any resistance in Tech at all besides Reed
00:43:26
Hoffman and maybe mark Cuban n none that I have been able to discern you know I've talked to a lot of of tech leaders
00:43:33
and Tech CEOs even just off the Record or talking to their their their comms people and the message to to me has been
00:43:40
very clear when we go on the record don't ask us about politics they don't want to talk about it they're not
00:43:46
talking about it and I think it feels so markedly different to 2016 when a lot of
00:43:52
them were talking about it I think Airbnb I remember was a really notable example then of a company that came up Swinging with regards to the Trump
00:43:59
Administration with regards to the president's comments on immigrants people from what garbage countries
00:44:05
hole countries um you know it's it's radio silence which I think is really
00:44:11
telling really disturbing and will unleash any number of of crises over the
00:44:17
next four years I really believe that so last question here is are the Democrats I don't think were as close to Tech as
00:44:23
people thought it was I thought I thought Obama was that you know in that room regard with Eric Schmidt and others
00:44:29
what um do you think it's a wholesale change I think it's an opportunistic change and
00:44:34
I the joke I make is that if KLA Harris won Mark Zuckerberg would be asking us to calling him they them yes um you know
00:44:42
I don't think it's anything other than that because I don't think they're committed in any way and I think Steve bannon's right they're not magga friends
00:44:48
they just are opportunistic um is in that regard is there an opportunity for Democrats in that way besides giving
00:44:55
these toddlers what they want you mean to get closer to the tech
00:45:00
industry to get close back back to closest or do you think it's an overall shift that's
00:45:05
permanent I don't think it's an overall shift I think you're right that this is like company before country right this
00:45:10
is opportunistic what's best for meta in this specific moment in the context of the numbers right it's about the bottom
00:45:16
line it's not even about the staff and whether or not they're having a good time um it's it is absolutely
00:45:21
opportunistic but I think to be able for the Democrats to be able to create an opportunity here would require them to
00:45:29
first get their together and figure out what their strategy actually is over the next four years and so it's a really
00:45:34
hard question to answer when Beyond some like sternly worded statements and
00:45:40
speeches and a couple of people hanging out in DC outside of these federal
00:45:46
agencies being noisy I don't really see a coherent strategy taking shape at all
00:45:51
I would be very interested to see what they think they could do to collaborate more closely with the tech industry to
00:45:57
sort of create a productive working relationship with some of these leaders so that hopefully in three and a half
00:46:03
years we're in a very different position ahead of the next us election um but it's very hard to see that happening
00:46:09
right now because I don't see much happening at all yeah I would agree with you anyway um we're okay Katie it's time
00:46:16
for this week's threads poll result last week we asked you all what you wish Democrats were doing in response to Trump Administration that's why I was
00:46:23
asking about that here are a few responses Carrie said replace Schumer entire com stash with Pete budajudge
00:46:29
from Marina primary retire all those old white men and support young ferocious Fearless candidates and Nick said talk
00:46:36
like human beings stop fundraising texts demonstrate understanding of urgency we know the house is on fire we want to see
00:46:42
firefighters nurses cops uh good answers kind of what you were saying what would
00:46:49
I mean I think this is right it's the the elderliness of it the um the the the
00:46:54
tone definite the lack of social media I think the the Republicans are excellent on social media um and comparatively and
00:47:01
that and that the Democrats certainly aren't as much some are certainly are do you see anybody being very promising I
00:47:07
mean uh pritzker suddenly has sort of developed a backbone and is using social media a lot obviously AOC um uses it is
00:47:16
there anybody and how important is that going forward I'm I've always been a big Pete budajudge fan um I think he's he he
00:47:23
knows how to create a viral moment he's very well spoken he's very forceful I think that he continues to be a really
00:47:30
promising voice in that party obviously I think that AOC is is tremendous I mean I think she is articulate she is
00:47:37
forceful she is accessible um I think what she does on on vertical video on
00:47:43
social Platforms in terms of communicating with her audience is is phenomenal I wish that we saw more
00:47:49
politicians do that kind of I I want to call it Grassroots Outreach it's it's
00:47:54
Grassroots digital Outreach right it's it's meeting your constituents where they are on the platforms where they
00:47:59
spend time talking to them in a way that feels authentic helping them navigate what is happening right now and and sort
00:48:06
of really genuinely acting as a voice for the people and someone for the people to look to as a leader I think
00:48:11
the Democrats need more to the point of of one of the the commenters really sort
00:48:17
of you know high energy High Velocity forceful political leaders instead of
00:48:25
candidly you know the the iatrics who are just kind of sitting on their hands right now waving Scott says waving their
00:48:31
their their canes at people I would agree it's I I I actually see Chris mury doing some interesting things there's a
00:48:36
bunch of them there's a bunch of them but it has to be coordinated in a way that you know and you still have the power of the rogans although he's
00:48:43
slipping a little bit you're starting to see slippage with him um I think the audience is up for grabs that's for sure
00:48:49
um if they want if they want to have the right questions um all right um now for
00:48:55
this week's questions for our audience do you think China will agree to the sale of Tik Tock under the Trump
00:49:00
Administration Katie I want your response very quickly on this one no all right and so what
00:49:08
happens what happens I sure you're reporting on this
00:49:14
I'm sure you have reported we are I mean first of all I think everything happening right now is is very dubious
00:49:20
in its legality and I'm not quite sure how Tik Tok is still in the app stores that the Supreme Court said it shouldn't
00:49:25
be in I I think that Trump broker some kind of deal to keep Tik Tok in the
00:49:30
United States I think it's very clear that he has no intention of letting this thing shut down so I think he broke her
00:49:36
some sort of deal what's in it for Beijing though is
00:49:41
the big question mark I have because they have no interest in allowing that platform to operate in this country
00:49:47
without their oversight and without their control of that algorithm so how he actually solves for that I do not
00:49:52
know and and we at wired I will say we do not know we do not know and and do you see any person besides Larry Ellison
00:50:00
rising to the front I've said musk obviously because he's he's acceptable to China I I think Elon Musk I think
00:50:06
Larry Ellison I do not think as much as I I really like Frank mccort and I think that he is you know a very articulate
00:50:13
and and intelligent person I don't see that sort of taking shape in any meaningful way it's one of the bits yeah
00:50:18
yeah I think it's probably going to be an Elon thing once again he's going to fix everything visit us on threads at pivot podcast official to answer so
00:50:26
we'll hear we'll hear the answers we get from listeners if you've got a question of your own or you'd like answer it send
00:50:32
it our way go to nymag.com Pivot subit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot all right Katie one more quick
00:50:38
break we'll be back for your prediction okay Katie let's hear a prediction you are Scott Galloway today okay I'm going
00:50:45
to offer a completely insane improbable prediction but I feel
00:50:50
like I have talked so much about so many things that are very stressful um and
00:50:55
real bummers for everybody and I'm sorry about that so here is my prediction one thing that we know about Elon Musk is
00:51:01
that he latches on to an idea or an ideology and he sticks with it and he goes really really hard at it and then
00:51:08
he changes his mind it has happened before my predict my prediction and you'll have me back on in six months or
00:51:14
a year and and make fun of me for how wrong I was something will happen whether it has to do with his companies
00:51:20
whether it has to do with a divide in in Maga world within sort of the Trump
00:51:26
orbit something will happen and he will pivot back to a more
00:51:31
Progressive uh more uh left leaning Dem Centric
00:51:37
ideology and he will do away with this sort of like Hardline extremist
00:51:43
far-right approach this is I am giving you a very optimistic a very optimistic
00:51:48
and it's just your wish your wish that he that he will do this I think there is a 1% chance that it will happen and so
00:51:54
I'm using it as he used to support I just was looking at text he sent me about the climate change thing he was he
00:52:01
was so upset in the text like that Trump was doing same thing oddly enough with gay lesbian stuff I I just I I think
00:52:07
it's important for people to remember that he he was not always this way it was not always like this and oh he was a
00:52:13
little bit this way a little but he was not out there avidly cheering on Donald Trump in 2016 so I am saying there is a
00:52:20
one% chance that he moves in the other direction well we'll see I don't know
00:52:25
what could happen getting off the uh evening activities I don't know what happen I know you never
00:52:31
know I don't know his his daughter is nice to him who can't stand exactly you
00:52:36
you never know you never know if Elon Musk if Elon Musk and Donald Trump in the last six months have shown us
00:52:43
anything that you never know I did not know when I he is consistent Donald Trump is consistent he has not changed
00:52:49
one bit except he's got a rich friend um that he uses a as a cudgel on everybody else but we'll see that's a really good
00:52:55
one Katy I like it you I like it excellent I like it we'll see I will have you back in six months if that happens all right um I just want to say
00:53:03
uh absolutely Stellar coverage you are you guys are not just a scoop machine but the context and you're sticking to
00:53:09
it let me ask you a personal question are you worried in any way for yourself with all these threats as people ask me
00:53:15
that a lot cuz when he recently threatened Scott and I and I was like oh didd he like okay like but it's not
00:53:21
something that's not in my mind legal action or um you know pressure from
00:53:26
people I have seen it I'm seeing it happen I was supposed to appear with someone they pulled out they're like oh
00:53:32
you're too hot like and I was like I don't think you mean that in a nice way like kind of thing um I and and and to
00:53:39
is do you feel pressure not to keep doing what you're doing I don't feel pressure to stop doing what we're doing
00:53:46
I think what I feel is concern um for the the legal and digital
00:53:53
and physical safety of my staff um I I worry like I'm I'm a mom I have I have a
00:53:58
family and I I bring my mom energy um to work um and I I care about them I worry
00:54:05
about them um I worry about myself and my family to a degree um and of course I
00:54:11
worry about it but the thing is there's nothing inaccurate about the journalism
00:54:16
like there's there's there is no you know everything as I have said before I mean and this is such a cliche thing for
00:54:22
an editor-in-chief to say but we stand by the reporting it is Rock Solid there
00:54:28
is there is not a strand that you could pull on that would unravel in some
00:54:34
detrimental way and so I have to just stick with that and keep going and I think that's
00:54:39
for the entire I used to I used to tell that to our reporters you just have to get it right it has to be right you
00:54:44
cannot you cannot make a mistake with these people because the minute you make even just the slightest one you know you
00:54:50
have an Achilles heel showing them they will come for you and that's what they'll do but still there are issues I
00:54:56
think you are you're right to be concerned about digital issues about hacking about legal attacks and stuff
00:55:02
like that and so that's why it's all the more courageous for what you and others are doing um in terms of and I and keep
00:55:08
going keep going for Big Balls I don't you know and the fact that you couldn't I'm sorry it was so good we shouldn't
00:55:14
laugh at this but come on how good is that Tesla do sexy LLC and Big Balls two
00:55:20
things I am very sorry that I have to keep saying on TV interviews and podcasts you like it a little bit it a
00:55:26
little bit you love doing it okay uh uh Katie that's the show thanks for watching pivot you'll be sure to like
00:55:32
And subscribe to our channel uh we'll be back next week
