00:00:00
Sam Alman saying we shouldn't be the morality police. No, no, actually you should.
00:00:11
Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser
00:00:16
and I'm Scott Galloway. Scott, guess where I am? Where are you? Los Angeles. Your favorite place. You
00:00:22
love Los Angeles. Yes. And what are you doing there? Um, I am working on the one of the last
00:00:28
interviews for this secret documentary from Steve with the the hacking guy.
00:00:33
Worst kept secret. The hacking guy. Yeah. I met him at the Aspen gathering.
00:00:38
Oh. Um. Yeah. Thoughts. Did you discuss all your body?
00:00:43
All my stuff. Yeah. Well, of course he wanted to know my secret. Um, and I said, "Well, actually,
00:00:50
you know, I'm like, other than, you know, the lower faceelift, the chin implant, my eyes done, the pico laser,
00:00:57
the fractal laser, the vitamin A, vitamin D, NAD, and testosterone shots. It's all just genetics. I guess I'm
00:01:04
lucky. I guess I'm lucky. Oh, and I I forgot to mention I've worked out four times a week for the last 40 years."
00:01:10
I think that's called epigenetics, the things that you do to affect yourself. Uh, I I think it's called narcissism
00:01:16
crisis. talk about the age of eight. We're going to talk about that topic because I do think a lot of this is born
00:01:22
of narcissism. See, I feel like if I insult him, I'm insulting you. But
00:01:27
here we are. Um I mean, I'm sure it's not you know what though, it's not easy. It's not easy being a four. Like when I
00:01:34
was younger, well, anyways, when I was younger, I was handsome. That was really good. Yeah. I'm getting to the point now. I think
00:01:40
being really ugly is pretty easy because you just sort of lean into it and give up. Like I'm almost there. I'm ready to
00:01:46
lean into the ugly. Ugly is unattractive. You know, ugly can be unattractive.
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Excuse me. Ugly. That's illuminated. Sounds like you won journalism awards in in college. Uh I did.
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I know he did. That's why I brought a fun award. Let's bring that back for people. You You've brought it up several thousand. When I find that medal in my basement
00:02:05
with my Bitcoin, I'm going to wear it every episode. So, wear it as a belt. Anyways, the but
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it's not easy being like I'm I'm like the most difficult place is being
00:02:17
mediocre looking. It's like when I had great hair that was awesome. I actually like having a shaved head. It was when I
00:02:22
was losing my hair for 10 years that it was a pain. I'm in the transition phase. I'm transitioning from modestly good-looking
00:02:28
to very definitely not good-looking. And it's the transition that's painful. I hate to pay you a compliment, but I
00:02:34
think you're very good-looking. Go on. I'm sorry. My mic was off. Classic deal. You look you're very
00:02:39
classic looks. I think you're classic. No one's ever David's looking too. I guess I don't know.
00:02:45
Oh my god. You just blew it. You literally just blew it. I did that on purpose. Let me think.
00:02:50
Patrick Patrick um the guy who was um Stewart. You have a very Patrick Stewart. Patrick Stewart. I've
00:02:57
had a British accent. It would work for you. I get Ivan Lindle, Bruce Stern, and Ryan
00:03:02
Reynolds. Uh Drunk Uncle. Um no, I would say Oh, I like Bruce Stern. I like Bruce D. Another hand.
00:03:10
Yeah, you have that sort of like face that. Yeah. Yeah. Let me hear your
00:03:16
British accent. An elevator face. Let me hear your British accent. No, I can't do accents anymore. It sounds like a dead language twins.
00:03:21
You do your dad one, your Scottish one. But I need a few drinks for that one. You could do French. You could move to
00:03:28
France. You could do the French accent and that was a cheese the cheese eating surrender monkeys. Was that too much?
00:03:35
too much. It's so attractive. I don't know if I was, but you know, I'd be making out with you right now.
00:03:41
Oh, yeah. That's That will never That's what happens when I start. We will never be arrested in a park.
00:03:49
We're never going to We're never going to find either. We We'll never find you topless in a car. We might find me
00:03:54
topless in a car. That's true. We'll find you topless on stage. Oh my god, we got so much feedback. We got so much feedback. Why did people
00:04:00
love that so much? I felt they went together nicely because the gold coin story I did not think was going to land
00:04:06
honestly and then it did like terrifically and then the arrest one people loved both of them.
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No, but the thing is when you're arrested twice it's a pattern like
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you're definitely everyone's like what a gangster cuz if you're arrested once who knows you're in college you never know right or you get pulled who knows but
00:04:25
arrested twice definitely means you know you you you fought the law and the law won. I mean, I almost got arrested one
00:04:32
other time where this, you know, when these sort of local police officers can be like, "Does it involve lesbian sex? Cuz I'm
00:04:38
here for it." No, this guy was yelling at a lady and um and I intervened and he was like
00:04:44
being really abusive. He's one of those like cops. I I love I like most cops actually. I've always had relatively
00:04:49
good Well, most some people don't, other people. It's my favorite stripper is one.
00:04:54
It's true. Oh, I went to a stripper once. They had a cop strip. Yeah. The Hangar Club.
00:05:01
Why? Why are you getting that one? You used to have a loyalty card. I went actually I just heard from all my
00:05:07
college friends are all coming to DC and we're going out and they were kind of wild. They were a wild gang and like
00:05:12
always drunk and everything and I was like the good one and like I'd study and come and they'd like you come back and
00:05:18
there'd be nine guys they made out with on the floor of our place. But we all went to a place for one of my um
00:05:26
roommates birthdays called the hangar club in get it hanger. Hangar. And they
00:05:31
would uh let the strippers in. I went to a one of those. It was it was something else. Were you out in college?
00:05:38
No. No. No. But it was terrible. So you were dating dating men or just had crushes on girls?
00:05:44
Vaguely. You know, I I had sort of stopped I had a four-year high school boyfriend essentially and then I had
00:05:49
boyfriends all the way through. Um, but I have the same boyfriend for 4 years. Yeah. Yeah. Mhm.
00:05:55
Wow. Are you guys still in contact? Um, a little bit. A little bit. Um, I haven't talked to him in a while. I
00:06:01
haven't talked to him in a while. He's great. He's a great guy. Yeah. His name was Chris Price. I'll say it. He's really nice. He was really
00:06:07
nice. Yeah, we 10th grade until his freshman year of college. So, I broke up
00:06:13
once in the middle of it. I knew I was gay. I should have not done that. I shouldn't have gone out at the time. by
00:06:19
by that time. I should have not I should have not I should have said something. But one didn't do that then. Scott, he
00:06:25
was lovely. I was a really good girlfriend because I put out because I didn't care.
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You're probably pretty easygoing. Yeah, why not? Like what do I care? Anyway, we do have a lot to get to today, including Instagram going PG-13
00:06:36
and OpenAI going in the opposite direction with erotica. But first, leaked texts from messaging platform
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Telegram revealed leaders of the young Republican groups exchanged racist, sexist, and anti-semitic texts over the span of seven months. The chats included
00:06:49
jokes about enslavement, uh negative comments about minorities. They're really gross. I'm not going to repeat them, but they're like, "Think of the
00:06:55
worst thing and then make it worse was what they were, and discussions about raping enemies and driving them to
00:07:01
suicide." Uh, and if you see the pictures of these people, each one looks like an insult. Honestly, the young
00:07:07
Republican National Federation said it was appalled by the language and suggested those involved must resign. But as usual, JD Vance, couch potato,
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took the opportunity to criticize a Democratic Virginia's AG candidate who is texting scandal of his own regarding
00:07:21
political violence. That guy is terrible. But of course, J Vance can't possibly just say sorry. Uh Vance called
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the response to the Republican group text pearl clutching in comparison. Uh let's listen to a clip of him on the
00:07:33
Charlie Kirk show. he's going to have a great job as a podcaster when he leaves office. But the reality is that kids do stupid
00:07:40
things, especially young boys. They tell edgy, offensive jokes. Like, that's what
00:07:45
kids do. And I really don't want us to grow up in a country where a kid telling a stupid joke, telling a very offensive
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stupid joke is caused to ruin their lives. And at some point, we're all all going to have to say enough of this BS.
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I'll tell you who's enough of this BS is JD Vance. uh some individuals exposed and the messages have been fired at
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least one young Republicans groups have been disbanded. Um what do you think of this? Because it really was over the top
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and you know it's we we do it's not cancel cultures back but it was pretty horrible like it was shock I I was even
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surprised maybe I shouldn't have been. What did you think? Initially, all else being equal, I sort of agree with JD
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Vance in the sense that well, give me some time here and then you can pose for the woke ring line.
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I'm not going to Don't always pull Don't bring that up. Don't always bring woke. That's your excuse. When you're losing an argument,
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you say woke, but go ahead. Move on. You do. I don't know. Uh, anyways, so I
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empathize with the notion that we had the luxury of not having a digital world
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where every every ridiculously offensive stupid thing we did, I mean, the [ __ ]
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the [ __ ] we did in college, I look back on. I cringe and I thank God I wasn't
00:09:02
involved. Now, having said that, can I just interject for people for a fact? No, because you're you're going to steal
00:09:07
my thunder and then everyone's going to come on and say, "Okay, go Cara." Um,
00:09:13
all right. One, these aren't children. Some of these, some of these people, specifically, some
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of these men are not even young men. They're 31 and 35. Uh, two, he's the wrong messenger for
00:09:26
this because he's totally inconsistent. If this was the Democratic, young
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Democratic chat, he would have ordered a gunship and [ __ ] the Army Rangers to
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their homes. And uh this is the same group of people that says that a joke
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about uh Donald Trump talking about a ballroom when asked
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about Charlie Kirk is so offensive that it should be removed from the air. So
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it's incredibly hypocritical and inconsistent for Vice President Vance to say anything about come on guys. It's
00:10:01
just speed. It's just, you know, bros, frat kids going to be frat kids. And also, these are not children.
00:10:09
And when you look at what they said, I don't like there is a certain gotcha
00:10:14
culture where the media goes crazy around calling people out. But the reality is when you read these texts,
00:10:21
these young men or or adults, these adult men are about to learn a valuable
00:10:27
life lesson in that there is no context for which these types of conversations
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or statements are acceptable. And distinctive whether they're racist,
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bigoted, whatever, homophobic, it should it should logically,
00:10:43
practically from a common sense standpoint hurt their careers because these these people just lack so much
00:10:50
common sense. Yeah. And they have such poor judgment. Yeah. To not only think these things, but to
00:10:56
put them down in a text chat. So look, but again, for me, this all comes back
00:11:02
to the same thing. go with it because it's one more day we're not talking about Epstein. I think in the the big
00:11:08
picture, this really isn't this is a pimple on the pimple of what's going on in this country. It's a bunch of [ __ ]
00:11:13
idiots who shouldn't who should have a trouble getting a job because this will come up in their Google searches and
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it's a good life lesson for young people, especially young men who are more risk aggressive and and and more
00:11:25
more prone to say really stupid [ __ ] And I do believe, and I've said this about the campus protests, I'm less
00:11:32
bothered by what a 19-year-old says at Cornell than I'm by what some of the
00:11:37
faculty have said, tweeting and and some of the statements they've issued. I think that they've had time to develop
00:11:43
some critical thinking skills. You have come I I have you have come, you know, this is what the kids say. I I
00:11:50
do give a wide birth to teen teenagers. And also that said, it was this these
00:11:56
weren't just little jokes. It went on and on and on and it's weird because it was really upsetting. It was really upsetting. That's what I
00:12:01
was two things came to me at once is I see your explanation here, but um is
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that it was um first of all, they were stupid. That's what that really struck me and dumb like this is what they think
00:12:13
is funny. Um two is the hypocrisy as you noted about making Jimmy Kimmel making what was a funny joke uh because Trump
00:12:21
said it uh versus this like this haha. But I do think it's a pervasive
00:12:29
feeling among these people. They really like it's it's so I I I was that that
00:12:35
the return of this and maybe it would never went away was something I would like it to go away again, but I guess
00:12:41
they're thinking it. So maybe just to see it, we'll just be clear of who these people are. I I don't think they'll be
00:12:47
punished at all. But JD Van should step out of it. That's my feeling. like especially cuz he was he's the one
00:12:52
that's always like you should be able to say all these kids will pay a yeah they'll pay a price
00:12:58
uh look I won't even say kids although they feel like kids when you're getting
00:13:04
this old and and folks this is a lesson to young people out there I hate to say this but
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a lot of times people will send an email saying I appreciate how provocative and how profane you are I want to be more
00:13:15
bold and I write back don't don't yeah or I write back and say are you already rich Because if you're economically
00:13:21
secure and have people who love you unconditionally, fine. You can take more license with the things you say and occasionally say something stupid and
00:13:27
have people push back and it doesn't threaten your economic livelihood. But in this era, the reality is if you go to
00:13:33
work for JP Morgan or Goldman Sachs, they run a credit check on you. Now, you know what they also do? They check your
00:13:38
social media. What's going to happen when these kids go on to want to be, you
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know, leave government and want to go be work at Lazar Frera or whatever for a
00:13:50
law firm or a lobbying firm. The first thing the HR director does is they do a Google search on you. What's going to
00:13:55
come up with these kids and this is what's going to happen. They're never even going to know why they didn't get an interview. Oh,
00:14:01
they'll know there because the HR person is going to see, oh, this is a person making light
00:14:06
of gas chambers and using the n-word. Well, you know what? Maybe we should look at the other 99 applicants we have.
00:14:13
Yeah, it's true. It's too much bother and someone will come up with it and someone will know who it was and everything else. But there is
00:14:20
and for them if they if they'd showed up with an AR-15 to the No Kings rally, they they would have found some
00:14:25
Republican weirdos that want to hire them. Yeah. Everyone's going to run from this. There's nothing cool about this. There's
00:14:31
nothing provocative. There's nothing rightwing. I think even most Republicans are working on a limb, I guess, to create havoc, I suppose, with the
00:14:37
distraction. And speaking of which, I I I urge everyone to read the excerpts from uh I think it's Virginia Grey um
00:14:45
her her she's postumously published a book about uh her uh experiences with
00:14:52
Jeffrey Epste, and it is it's it's beautiful, right? Yeah, I read it. You sent it. It's very upsetting. Uh but it's it's so
00:14:58
plainly said and and I think it links to the way men some men think about women,
00:15:03
right? like it was sort of she was making the bigger point that it wasn't just the sickness of Jeffrey Epstein,
00:15:09
but that there were more people who who act like this or feel like it's their privilege to talk about people and to um
00:15:17
but everything rang true in that first exchange when she was a kid with her and Galain Gileain Maxwell and him and if he
00:15:25
if after reading that if Trump lets her out he really is culpable. I just don't
00:15:31
know how else you could read anything close to that and not think that. I don't know. And there's been story after
00:15:36
story. The two things that struck me were reading that article cuz I I' I'd heard
00:15:42
most of it from other sources before before the two things that struck me were one there is supposedly there is research
00:15:50
showing that pedophiles target kids who have an absent or what they perceive as a weak uh male role
00:15:57
model. Yeah. that they sum up the level of male involvement in that person's life and
00:16:04
prey on people. And you can imagine uh children of single parents from low-inccome homes uh are just more
00:16:11
likely to be victims, which is obviously very upsetting. The other thing that really struck me here, Cara, that I didn't know about, like her dad
00:16:19
introduced her at Mara Lago. Yeah. To a Trump. Like I mean folks at
00:16:24
what point at what point is there there's just so much evidence right
00:16:29
around Epstein and Mara Lago and Trump. It's like wait they met this whole thing
00:16:36
started at Mara Lago. Yeah. Yeah it did. You didn't know that because that's why Trump said he kicked
00:16:43
uh Epstein out because he he poached he was stealing employees. Not because he was not because he was a convicted
00:16:49
pedophile but because he was stealing his employees. remember he had that sentence where it looked like he owned her like he took one of my things like I
00:16:55
know anyway the whole thing you must read it cuz it's very so plainly written and everything rings true I have to say
00:17:02
especially about the that encounter the way he talked to her the way they tried to pull it and Galain Maxwell I mean
00:17:08
Epstein is dead and don't rest in peace but boy she's a monster the the same in
00:17:15
the same manner like grotesque and should never be let out of prison and should be thrown thrown into a deeper
00:17:21
prison. As far as I'm concerned, it's already happened. The fix is already in. Yeah. He sent his personal lawyer down to
00:17:27
interview her. That never happens. And then what do you know? She's transferred to a lower uh a more pleasant prison.
00:17:33
The fix is already a pardon. He cannot give her a pardon. Cara, every time we've said that, we
00:17:39
have found out that in fact he can. Like the feels like the third rail. Anyway, it's already been
00:17:44
the wheels are the wheels are already in motion. All of a sudden, she's at a a more amendable, more comfortable prison.
00:17:51
Yeah. Total violation of all decorum around justice where a lawyer went down to interview her. And now uh this is the
00:17:58
fix is in. I think it's already I think it's already happened. Well, I'll tell you I'll tell you one thing. If she does get out, people
00:18:04
should like OJ, she should lead a restless life where she never gets a moment's piece. I have to say what she
00:18:10
did to these young girls is repulsive and in she's a monster. She's an She's I never think say the word evil about
00:18:16
people, but she's evil and so was he. Anyway, I I recommend you reading it. And it's sad. The Virginia um committed
00:18:24
suicide, by the way, before this book came out. She was in a terrible car accident, wasn't she? Or was
00:18:29
she It's kind of unclear what happened, but ultimately it sounds her life sounds she was a vulnerable young woman who had
00:18:37
a history of um sexual abuse, and she was a perfect mark for these two
00:18:42
terrible predators. Anyway, um speaking of which, California Governor Gavin Newsome vetoed a bill this week would
00:18:47
have banned miners from using AI chatbots. His reason the bill's restrictions were too broad. I would agree. He did sign another AI safety
00:18:55
bill requiring chatbots that tell users their AI and reminding miners every 3 hours to take breaks. OpenAI called the
00:19:00
bill a meaningful move forward for AI safety standards. Those CEO Sam Alton also just revealed that OpenAI will
00:19:06
allow verified youth adults to access erotica on chat GBT in December. Um it's
00:19:12
I'm not sure if these are related, but they feel like they are. Um the first bill I I know it was pushed by a lot of
00:19:18
different groups, but it was broad because it seemed like it was attacking older people, too. And it felt like um
00:19:26
we have to really specifically carve out minors here um in a way. Um I think it's
00:19:31
harder to try to ban regular people from having older people, excuse me, from having um relationships with chaps, as
00:19:38
weird as they may be. and how even if they lead to bad outcomes that many of them have. Um I I think we I don't know
00:19:45
what to say about the the erotica. Do do you what do you think about what is and isn't getting regulated and and the
00:19:52
erotica thing? Um Sam Alman later said open was not the elected moral police of the world. I I didn't think they were
00:19:59
but okay. What do what do you think? Look I don't
00:20:06
you know Oh god. So, he's trying really hard not to make a joke. Well, no. No, I'm not. I wrote I'm
00:20:13
writing this book on masculinity. And I think one of the things that kills masculinity is an overindulgence in porn because I think key to success
00:20:20
Yeah. You talk about and one of and one of the important things and one of the wonderful things about being a man is that we're more
00:20:26
risk aggressive. Now, sometimes that results in reckless behavior, but sometimes it also results in valor and
00:20:32
and wonderful things can happen when you apply for a job you're not qualified for. When you start a business that
00:20:39
makes no sense and ends up being crazy genius, when you approach a woman and take uh the risk of rejection, it can
00:20:45
lead to wonderful places. The problem with porn I find among young men is that
00:20:51
an overconumption of porn reduces their mojo to take risks and establish relationships that might lead to
00:20:56
romantic relationships. And that is we have demonized and pathized sexual desire among young men. And the reality
00:21:02
is it's like fire. It can lead to bad places. It can lead to objectifying women. It can lead to inappropriate
00:21:07
behavior. But for the most part, it's the fire that goes into an engine that creates a better you or desire for
00:21:14
better you. I want to look better. I want to look. I want to work out. I want to smell nice. I want to groom. I want
00:21:19
to have a plan. I want to dress well. I want to take risks. I want to demonstrate kindness.
00:21:25
So, the idea of a combination of erotic content with the character AI and
00:21:31
synthetic relationship capabilities of these companies, I think, is a [ __ ] disaster. Because the first time a
00:21:39
14-year-old male gets shunned by a 14-year-old girl, which is part of
00:21:44
growing up because women have a much finer filter for mating opportunities because the downside of sex is so much
00:21:49
greater. I mean, if you want if you're a dude and you want to have women in your life and
00:21:54
you want romantic opportunities, that involves one thing, rejection and hopefully resilience. And what I worry
00:22:01
about is the first signs of rejection. a 14-year-old, a 15-year-old, 16-year-old
00:22:07
uh boy starts turning to this awesome synthetic AI that looks like the hottest
00:22:13
girl you've ever met who will tease you just enough and then Yeah. and then start showing you private parts
00:22:19
and then let you engage in a series of erotic synthetic experiences that are
00:22:24
low friction, low risk, and quite frankly just reduce the fire. You you
00:22:29
can I just you use a word there which again that the people of Sila use all the time which is seamless frictionless
00:22:35
they don't like friction like and the problem is I I've done a bunch of interviews about this lately and what's
00:22:40
interesting is um the friction part like and it goes the other way women would like men more attentive more they could
00:22:47
make their own characters right it's not going to be and they are just you know and then you have you know
00:22:53
a frictionless relationship which I think is useless on some I mean it can be entertaining for a second. But once
00:23:00
you get used to that, anyone in real life is incredibly
00:23:05
problematic, right, for you because you're used to this sort of seamless, frictionless life. Sex is friction, of
00:23:11
course, you know, physically. Um, but it really does um you can't The thing is,
00:23:17
you can't really stop them from doing it, right? He's right. He's not the moral police. No, I don't, by the way, that's kind of a straw man. No one
00:23:23
thought Open AI was the world's police. Moral police. fine, he can say that. Um,
00:23:29
but uh, but more to the point, it just makes this ease of of easing us into
00:23:35
these relationships of course will help his bottom line because this is the kind of thing you stay on there. Even early
00:23:41
chat, if you remember, early chat groups were incredibly addictive just between and among different people. Especially I
00:23:48
had a chapter in my AOL book called the house the house that uh online porn built cuz that's where it really got
00:23:54
going is online porn early in early internet phase. This is just a quantum leap I think.
00:24:00
Well, there's basically three ways to make money on the internet. There's ads, there's e-commerce, and there's porn,
00:24:06
right? And the problem or one of the issues with porn is that there's very little peer-review research because the
00:24:12
majority of academics don't want to be known as the porn professor. Yeah. And so, but just happening for you, Scott. Go ahead.
00:24:19
Yeah. There you go. Um, I'm not going to touch that one. So, don't touch anything. Go ahead.
00:24:25
Look, 68 million search queries related to pornography. We, you know, get this. A quarter of all searches are related to
00:24:33
pornography. Yeah. Every day. a quarter of the searches, which gives you a sense of how big this business is.
00:24:38
One U analyst found that porn generates roughly 10% of the comments on Reddit. 13% of X is not safe for work content.
00:24:46
Tumblr, which was a porn site and they they and I said it was a porn
00:24:52
site. They spent 1.1 billion. Marissa Mayor spent $ 1.1 billion for a porn site. And then the I forgot his name.
00:24:59
the venture capitalist with a weird haircut from Union Square Ventures got angry at me and said Tumblr's amazing da
00:25:05
da da after he had sold all his stock and then they announced under pressure they were doing away with porn and in 60
00:25:11
days their traffic dropped by 30%. And then that $ 1.1 billion that $1.1
00:25:16
billion acquisition it was sold for I think $3 million 7 years later. Yeah, porn is enormous online and when you
00:25:24
have when you have young men being pathized getting mixed signals around what the what's usually what used to be
00:25:30
considered romantic is now creepy and they have access to 20 I mean I just to
00:25:37
personalize this I barely graduated from UCLA barely I had graduated with a 2.27 27 GPA. And one of the reasons I went to
00:25:45
60 70% of my classes, not 10%, and didn't fail out, is I wanted to go on to
00:25:51
UCLA and see my buddies and see friends and quite frankly be around a
00:25:57
disproportionate amount of ridiculously hot women who I might get to know and at some point might have a relationship
00:26:02
with. It was very motivating. And if I had had on demand synthetic lifelike porn,
00:26:10
Yeah. I mean, how many men, what percentage of men are just not going to engage?
00:26:15
You know what? They're just going to be, this is not an insult, but I could see you falling way down that rabbit hole. You're you're a lot shy also than people
00:26:22
realize. And you're you you know, I think having difficult things happen to
00:26:28
you is hard for someone like like you, but then you do it and it makes you a better per. You know what I mean? You
00:26:34
have that's the whole that's the whole shooting match. the best things in our life. The best things in our life,
00:26:41
whether it's getting a great job, whether it's finding a romantic partner who you're just crazy about, whether
00:26:46
it's getting the opportunity to have your own sex, whether it's having the opportunity to give birth to a child,
00:26:52
whether it's having the opportunity to create a loving household that's economically secure. All of those things involve one thing. They're really
00:26:58
[ __ ] hard. with a ton of rejection, a ton of friction, a ton of dealing with
00:27:03
the messiest, most difficult thing in history, other people. And these synthetic relationships are just
00:27:10
constantly reinforcing, constantly making it easier. And if you're going to have I used to sneak into my father's
00:27:16
garage and look at his old Playboys. If all of a sudden that thing comes to that woman comes to life and starts
00:27:24
understanding me and talking about me and teasing me and doing sexual acts on demand. Yeah. This is just headed nowhere good.
00:27:32
You know, nowhere. Interestingly, I had a synthetic version of me for this thing
00:27:37
made and it disturbed me in every way because it got better by the second. It
00:27:42
was that was what was disturbing to me. It's not quite there yet. Um, and I'm going to leave it to you in my will, but
00:27:49
um, but the it is to give me a hard time. I know. Um, it's really um, let me
00:27:57
text me late at night. You should apologize. It's going to It's a 3D, my friend. Text me at 2 in the morning.
00:28:02
Text you're going to see the bo the moving body of Swisser. Um
00:28:09
you you the thing is you you you would you you and people like you would
00:28:15
move into this so quickly. And the key is that OpenAI, let me say besides all the other statements Sam made, this is
00:28:21
for money. They want to this they've got to find revenue streams. And this is this is the the motherload of them. This
00:28:27
is what it is. That's why they're they're not elect they were not elected the moral police, but they were elected to have to make money on this stuff. And
00:28:35
this is this is a killer app and it will bleed to our children. It will bleed. They will not be able to keep children
00:28:41
safe in this. Anyway, let me just add one other thing. Newsome is also signed a bill mandating health label warnings.
00:28:48
Speaking of which, like the R thing or something on a cigarette. This comes as Instagram just announced new protections
00:28:53
for teens limiting what they can see based on PG movies. The platform says it will hide uh content with strong
00:29:00
language, risky stunts, and marijuana use from teen users. Oh no, not the not not the demon weed. Restrictions will
00:29:07
also apply to AI bots. The updates follow recent reports questioning whether Instagram's existing teen account safeguards actually work. So
00:29:14
they decried the people who said they don't these reports, but then they of course do something. They The point I
00:29:21
want to make here is they don't think of it first. They should think of it first before these reports come out. And
00:29:26
nothing's going to be perfect, by the way. I don't expect perfection, but they really are so sloppy in how they do do
00:29:34
this. And then they're going to act like a PG-13 rating is the same thing because this is
00:29:40
immersive. This isn't a movie theater down the street. This is something much different. Um, that's very hard to keep
00:29:47
your teens out of, right? I mean, Scott, you this is what your book's about, right? This is this is one of these
00:29:52
weigh stations that young men are going to go through, young teenagers, and it's not they're not coming out good on the
00:29:58
other side of this because we slap a label on it. But I don't mind there being a label.
00:30:04
When I was I think I was 13, I was with my best buddy Adam Markman and we lived in walking distance from Westwood
00:30:10
Village, which by the way is a shadow of itself right now. But we used to we used to have friends who were ushers at all
00:30:16
the theaters, the National, the man, the Breuan, the Westwood Village Theater, and we'd go and we'd try and get eye
00:30:22
contact with one of our friends who was an usher. And he'd like leave a door open, we'd sneak in and and watch movies. And one day we took a wrong
00:30:29
turn. And at the age of 13, we we stumbled into fell into William Blatty's
00:30:35
The Exorcist. I could not in the morning, I would have
00:30:40
to put on my socks in the corner to make sure that the devil wasn't coming for I
00:30:46
I couldn't I slept on the floor at the foot of my mother's bed for two weeks.
00:30:53
Stunning voice. No. 13-year-old Max Vonida, Linda Blair's cinematic
00:31:00
peak, obviously. Ellen Buren, a hugely underrated actress. I love her. Um, anyways,
00:31:07
a 13-year-old should not see The Exorcist. No, the movies had it right. There's certain
00:31:12
content and I believe technologies that young people should not be exposed to as
00:31:18
their brain is wired. And one of those things we've decided is pornography. and Sam Alman saying we shouldn't be the
00:31:25
morality police. No, no, actually you should. You should have standards. And that is no one under the age of 18
00:31:32
should in any way be allowed to engage with a synthetic relationship. And two, you need to agegate pornography.
00:31:40
Yeah, everybody else does this. Why are you different? And because you can do it
00:31:46
better or because there's more money involved? Do it better. And it's harder because it's so pernit. It's not like a movie
00:31:51
theater. You have to, like you said, you physically went to Westwood, went into the movie, and listen, every parent has
00:31:57
an example of this. Like my movie that I shouldn't have seen was Tales from the Crypt, right? I shouldn't have snuck
00:32:02
into that movie, and I did. And and uh and like one and for Alex, he snuck
00:32:09
around the corner while Louis and I were watching Ted. And I that that wasn't quite that, but it was just dirty. And I
00:32:14
wish he had been older, and I wish I'd been a better parent in that regard. And with Louie going to sausage party with
00:32:20
him, mistake, right? But yeah. Oh man, I didn't think the food was
00:32:26
gonna have sex. But anyway, it was he literally in the middle right as I started to do that, I have to say, Louie
00:32:33
turned to me and said, "Good parenting." And I go, I want to kill myself. It's like so bad. And we were like, should we
00:32:39
leave? And he goes, no, let's just sit here quietly, not look. Anyway, well, you know, you know that there
00:32:45
actually there's a sequel coming out to The Exorcist, but it's it's a different twist. This time it's the devil trying
00:32:51
to get the priest out of the child. That's good. That isn't good. So, tell me what you
00:32:58
think with what's going to briefly um uh uh what do you think's going to happen?
00:33:05
I know what's going to happen. Uh, Governor Nuome is trying to thread the needle between being responsible and responding to parents concerns, but at
00:33:12
the same time, he's running for president. And the last [ __ ] thing he wants right now, Yeah. is for the most
00:33:17
successful companies that have been responsible for California surpassing Japan in terms of the size of its
00:33:23
economy, that have spent 70% of the gains in the S&P, which will be a fantastic talking point for him in a
00:33:29
debate. The last thing he can do is piss off these guys enough such that they start moving to Texas. So he's he's caught
00:33:36
between what a leader is supposed to do and that is protect people from a tragedy to the commons but at the same
00:33:41
time acknowledging that the thing that the thing that Governor Nent has going for him right now is the most the people
00:33:48
with the most options in the world the companies with the most options in the world creating the most value all choose to hang out and headquarter in one place
00:33:55
and that's California they do so it is very difficult for him he can't have Sam Alman go because of ownorous
00:34:02
regulation at the hands of our governor or we're considering relocating to, you know, Nashville or Austin. So, he has to
00:34:10
fi walk a very fine line here. But the again, it's a lot of blah blah, a lot of hand movement. It's the illusion of
00:34:16
complexity is being weaponized. Again, no one under the age of 18, there should be age gating. No one under the age of
00:34:22
16 should be on a social media platform. No one under the age of 18 should be subjected to pornographic content. No
00:34:27
one under the age of 18 should in any way be able to engage in a synthetic
00:34:32
relationship. They could figure out all this [ __ ] I think he's on safe ground with that. I think there's so much bipartisan. I
00:34:38
think the the company's gonna have to give up on having everything. You think they could do that? They should do that. They should could and will eventually
00:34:45
have to like I don't think it will go. I think they will not on this one. They
00:34:50
don't get what they want. And I think news that bill he vetoed was far too broad. I I when I saw it, I was like,
00:34:57
"No, this is going to they just I was like, can't you just stop at what we actually need? like we don't need to
00:35:02
protect everybody, we need to protect kids. Like that's what drove me crazy about that bill. I thought he would veto
00:35:07
it. Um and he did. All right, we have to we have to go on though. But we'll see what happens. One more go ahead.
00:35:13
One more footnote just on The Exorcist. I actually still with you. After I saw The Exorcist,
00:35:19
you can hear it coming. You can feel it coming. Okay. But what happened was I was
00:35:25
uh we couldn't, you know, my mom and I didn't have much money and we couldn't pay for our exorcist. So, uh, I got
00:35:31
repossessed. That's good bad credit humor.
00:35:36
You know, honestly, we should watch The Ashes together. Oh, god. All right. I can't I I don't watch scary movies. I
00:35:43
can't handle scary movies. I don't either. Oh, though I watched The Accountant too uh uh recently. I liked a lot.
00:35:48
You know, now after watching Wizard of the Oz growing up, whenever I climax, I scream, "Surrender, Dorothy. Oh my god.
00:35:54
Surrender." I feel so bad for your wife. I just want to say that as many times as I can.
00:35:59
Okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Meta caves to Fam Bondi and the DOJ. Another hypocrisy.
00:36:06
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and use promo code pivot. framer.com/design promo code pivot. Rules and restrictions
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may apply. Scott, we're back. Meta has taken down a
00:38:23
Facebook page that was sharing information about ICE agents in Chicago after quote outreach from the Justice Department. As Attorney General Pam
00:38:30
Bondi put it, Meta said the page was quote removed for violating our policies against coordinated harm. This follows
00:38:36
Apple and Google ice remov removing ice tracking apps. As we discussed last week, remember Republicans were slamming
00:38:43
tech companies for bowing to government pressure during the last administration, even taking the case to the Supreme Court. He also, you know, and and
00:38:49
complained about and Mark Zuckerberg has been vocal in the last year about social media censorship going far under uh
00:38:56
going too far under Biden. Let's listen to what he told Joe Rogan back in January. The government is not allowed to censor
00:39:01
this stuff. So it at some level I do think that you know having people in the
00:39:07
administration calling up the guys on our team and yelling at them and cursing and threatening repercussions if we
00:39:14
don't take down things that are true is like it's pretty bad. It sounds illegal.
00:39:20
Oh my god, he's such a hypocrite. Like literally, no one cursed and threatened him. And also he's not it's impossible
00:39:27
to threaten him. And secondly, what is Pam nicer about it? It's the same thing and it's the same thing Republicans
00:39:33
complained about and then it's the same thing they're doing. Every accusation is a confession with these people at every
00:39:40
moment of the time. I mean, and and they cave to these Republicans and of course,
00:39:45
you know, possibly cave to the Democrats because they're not yelling quite enough or not nice enough to them. I don't
00:39:51
know. What did you think? This was just gh of course of course I'm sensitive or empathetic to the
00:39:57
notion that if the government I think our tech platform should
00:40:02
cooperate with the government and but but at the same time I I find of of all
00:40:10
the ugliness I think I'm the thing that used to bother me the most was just the out of
00:40:17
control corruption around this crypto stuff. Uh I think that has been bested by the fact that we have a secret police
00:40:25
essentially terrorizing uh Americans because it's not only it's
00:40:31
not only the the the terror and the trauma these people have to go through. What it says is that America is devoting
00:40:38
its energy to uh fascism which is believing that the enemy is within. And
00:40:43
it's just a false flag. It's just it we're not that divided, but we have the
00:40:48
most powerful companies at the behest of the president dividing us. Well, talk about the irony thing that
00:40:54
because you mentioned that the Scott Bessant that they're going to investigate use it to investigate um people. You made a joke at the top, but
00:41:00
it's in this wheelhouse. Correct. It's this is an autotocracy. Reward your
00:41:07
Putin has nothing on Trump. Reward your allies. Carve up TikTok. give it to your
00:41:13
your Republican donors. Give somebody a tip that you're about to announce ridiculous tariffs again last Friday on
00:41:21
China. And this person goes out, buys uh several hundred million notionally in in
00:41:28
in puts against the crypto market. And by the way, closes out the trade at $120 million gain later that day. Again,
00:41:36
unless somebody knew that what was coming here, this was the luckiest trade in history. reward your allies and
00:41:41
punish your enemies. And at some point, you and me are going to end up on some list and the IRS is going to come for
00:41:47
us. Yeah. And when the IRS comes for you, even if you've done nothing wrong, if they're
00:41:52
aggressive enough, you're just going to have to pay a lot of money. It's going to send a chill and you're going to
00:41:57
decide, oh, maybe on our podcast we shouldn't speak. We shouldn't be so negative on Trump or whatever.
00:42:03
This is you don't weaponize. Americans pay for these institutions.
00:42:08
The IRS is there to make sure that people pay their taxes. By the way, if you want to solve or go a long way to
00:42:14
solving the deficit, you would increase funding to the IRS cuz supposedly about $780 billion a year is called the tax
00:42:20
gap, which means taxes that are owed that go unpaid. Because the Republicans, and this is very deaf, they have said
00:42:27
rather than the the the biggest tax cut in history, is the defunding of the IRS
00:42:35
because wealthy people have exceptionally complicated tax returns. And to audit a wealthy person takes
00:42:40
professionals and time and resources, which the IRS no longer has. So the tax
00:42:46
rates are just symbolic because very very wealthy people with complicated tax returns can be so aggressive now on
00:42:52
their taxes because they are in fact confident that the IRS doesn't have the resources to come for them. And now he's
00:42:58
saying I'll weaponize it against my enemies, right? And the IRS will such a waste.
00:43:04
I mean it happened at the DOJ. It's going to Why wouldn't it happen at the IRS? It's happened to the DOJ. The FBI should be investigating like the
00:43:10
there's been a lot of stories about how the FBI is like we're not doing real crimes. we're just doing what Trump thinks are crimes or immigration or all
00:43:17
the resources are going to Same thing here with the IRS. Instead of collecting taxes we are lawfully owed, this is what
00:43:23
they're going to spend their time doing because they they're going to know where their bread is buttered. The other part is that these laws against
00:43:31
officials, executive officials, including the president, were passed after Nixon tried to do this. So, he's
00:43:37
trying to break those up and they are very explicit, very um a lot of I'm just
00:43:45
going to say Scott Bessant, you better lawyer up if Democratic because what you're doing here is suggesting uh using
00:43:51
the IRS as as a tool of retribution. There are very clear laws that they're going to they may run over them right
00:43:57
now, but they're not going to outrun these things. Um and and so I don't
00:44:02
believe they will. And so not just Trump is also liable here for this if if if
00:44:08
Democrats the problem is if Democrats get in power, they're going to spend all their time rounding up the criminals,
00:44:13
right? And what what how does that help our country in any way? And at some point they'll have to let some of these
00:44:18
I do think there needs I don't know. I do think there needs to be something along the lines of like a
00:44:24
Nuremberg trial. There needs to be I think the only way we move past this is with some sort of reckoning. And I
00:44:29
actually believe the Democrats should be outlining the specific laws, the specific hearings, the specific
00:44:35
subpoenas that they are going to pursue because to just sort of say, well, it's time to move on
00:44:41
and come together, there needs to be moral clarity around what's going on here because just the DOJ being
00:44:48
weaponized is the most serious of all of it. But in terms of IRS, what that means is a tax increase for lower middle-
00:44:53
inome homes and all Democrats. Because if you're a famous Republican donor,
00:44:59
you're telling your tax people right now, just go so far, so aggressive.
00:45:05
Don't pay this. Claim claim a $200 million deduction on your plane even though it cost 60
00:45:11
million. Well, that's not true. Does just go for it. And by the way, I don't think I'll
00:45:18
be audited. Now, what does that mean? the government has to collect at least5 trillion dollars a year to just fund
00:45:24
their current commitments, they're going to have to get that money from somewhere. So, if really wealthy people or people in the president's dead, which
00:45:30
happen to be billionaire Republicans who are paying a disproportionate I mean, they're a key part of the tax code.
00:45:36
There's this notion that the rich don't pay taxes. No, the rich the top probably the top 10% pay about 80% of federal
00:45:42
taxes. Are they as a percentage of their wealth paying their fair share? I think that's up for real debate. But in terms
00:45:49
of a gross dollar amount, because they make so much more money than anyone, they're a huge part of the tax base. And
00:45:55
if you decide to start letting them off the hook, you're going to have to get other people to pay disproportionately
00:46:01
more. So him weaponizing the IRS is not only unjust, it's effectively a tax
00:46:06
increase for non-democratic billionaires and it's a tax decrease for for
00:46:11
Republican billionaires. Right. And people just don't connect the dots here. Yeah. No, I you know, you know what dot
00:46:17
you connected? the ideas around. Um, he wouldn't be able to do what he's doing without the AI boom. I thought that was
00:46:24
really smart. I was like, Amanda even said, she goes, I hadn't thought of that. Sometimes Scott comes out with the most obvious connections. That's the
00:46:30
same. Pure probability and luck at some point. I'm just saying it's a similar connection. It's like that's what's happening here. But let me tell you, you
00:46:38
know, it's it's going to come back to bite you. I really feel it will and probably should. Um, speaking of someone
00:46:44
that needs to be bitten, Salesforce CEO Mark Beni off appears to be sort of walking back his recent comments in New
00:46:50
York Times where he called for President Trump to send National Guard troops to San Francisco. Benoff tried to clarify
00:46:55
his remarks in a post on X, saying, "Safety is quote, first and foremost the responsibility of our city and state
00:47:01
leaders." He also pointed out correctly that crime in San Francisco is down 30%. Still he told the times that if the city
00:47:06
needs to refund the police even though San Francisco never actually defunded its police force and it has been doing
00:47:12
that. Um I got to say uh you know e I have a lot to say about this. There was a thing I sent you from Gary Tan who
00:47:18
irritates me on the on the regular but he said the same thing. This is it's all moving in the right direction. There's
00:47:24
all kinds of great statistics of what's happening in San Francisco. And for Mark to weigh in like this uh and then saying
00:47:30
we have to be nice to him because he gives a lot of money away. Like you give the money away and shut up, Mark. I'm sorry. If you want to be charitable like
00:47:37
McKenzie Bezos, keep your mouth shut about it. You don't need to be thanked and you don't get a pass over saying
00:47:44
something like this to bring in police, the National Guard to San Francisco. He never is there. I And I know a little
00:47:51
bit about what happened in here is he probably he went some he was in downtown San Francisco for 2 seconds, was in a
00:47:57
bad part of it, saw some homeless, and then compared it to Washington. He was in a very nice part of Washington and
00:48:04
it's like see what happens when the National Guard comes in. But what he doesn't know is Washington was like that before he got there and he was in a bad
00:48:11
part of San Francisco. There's no question San Francisco had a real downturn. But it is on the upturn from
00:48:18
the work for people like London Breed and now Daniel Lur um who's the mayor. They're trying really hard and for San
00:48:24
Francisco's biggest booster to do a heel turn like this because he wants to be part of the Trump crime family. I I just
00:48:33
And by the way, all of those tech bros who are with Trump make fun of him relentlessly, which is he should know
00:48:39
this. Um, and I know he needs to make money and he wants to get in on the gimmies and he wants to be at those
00:48:45
dinners, but Mark, this is I couldn't
00:48:50
it's it's not really shocking, but it's also gross is what it is. I don't know what else to say. You may have a
00:48:56
different opinion, but I don't think you this person who's been one of San Francisco's biggest border, this should
00:49:01
be the thing he said. And the last thing from what I understand is he did a more problematic interview with another
00:49:08
group. Um, and he also attacked Mike Morates, the San Francisco standard, which I think is doing a great job in
00:49:13
San Francisco reporting. Um, and and Mike Morates is another venture capitalist who owns who has created that
00:49:21
publication, which is an as I said, an excellent publication. But, um, you know, I think that he had a difficult
00:49:27
interview with them and then he turned to the New York Times and even his apparently his PR person was like jaw-dropping that he did this. I I like
00:49:36
Mark. I I I was sh I was s I wasn't surprised by it, but it's really
00:49:42
incredibly unhelpful and for you to act like a victim and then demand feelalty because you give money away. I'd rather
00:49:48
you not give the money away and keep your mouth shut. I don't know what else to say. What do you think?
00:49:54
I think you have more I mean, you know Mark better than me and you know San Francisco better than me. Um, but the
00:50:00
way I see it is simply put, I think Mark's a good guy who's very civic-minded. I think he gives money
00:50:06
away because he's genuinely a philanthropic person and recognizes his blessings. And he said something really [ __ ]
00:50:12
stupid. I mean, and if I were advising him, and I'm not. And actually, I you
00:50:18
know, I may text him. Just say, "I said something stupid. I apologize." and maybe add a little context because I
00:50:25
don't think it's I I think it's it's a shame because I do think Mark has made a real effort
00:50:31
to acknowledge his blessings and be really civic-minded. I've heard a lot of people say that when they can't find
00:50:38
resources anywhere, they call Mark and Mark is an automatic yes and he goes out
00:50:44
of his way. I I just I I just think he's a good man. He said something stupid
00:50:49
here that is not accurate. And when you get that rich, you can get into a bubble and maybe had a bad experience in San
00:50:56
Francisco. There are a lot of areas, my understanding is in San Francisco that feel like a war zone. Well, the Tenderloin has been bad for
00:51:01
decades. But go ahead. Go ahead. You know this you you you're going to forget more about the city than I'm I'm
00:51:07
ever going to go. In 1999, I I left the board of my company, got divorced, and said to my wife, ex-wife,
00:51:14
you can have our friends. I never want to come back here again. Um, probably more information than people wanted.
00:51:20
Uh, and I can't stand San Francisco is my least favorite city. I just I've just never I've never really enjoyed it.
00:51:26
Anyway, but but he probably had a bad experience. He's probably trying to pose
00:51:32
a little bit for the Trump lights and get in on some of that AI sweet, you know, whatever it might be. But it
00:51:39
uh the first thing I thought when I saw it was I thought it was sad because I do think Mark has spent a lot of time
00:51:45
trying to be the good billionaire. I know. And I think a lot of it is genuine. I don't think it's I don't think it's
00:51:51
doing it to try and to try and get business or deflect or be righteous or
00:51:57
tell nonprofits how to behave. I genuinely believe he is one of the good guys. And I hated to see this because
00:52:03
the reality is when you get it's very easy to enter in your own bubble and and say stupid things and he could fix this.
00:52:10
Very simple. It's interesting that he won't stupid. I apologize. He has changed a little bit. I have to say I think one of the things I did a
00:52:16
really famous interview where he said he compared Facebook to cigarette companies, right? And he was, you know,
00:52:23
and he was one of the few when when they had that Trump Tower thing, he's he was like, "Can you believe this shit?" um
00:52:29
when when all the tech billionaires went and now I think he's seen um you know
00:52:34
they're all sort of pigs at the trough and he's decided to oink. I just don't know what else it is like and that's so
00:52:40
and maybe he's had a change of heart and he's become more conservative. I don't know but you can't do ohana and then say
00:52:47
let's bring in the troops when San Francisco's trying really hard to fix itself and is on the upswing. It's such
00:52:53
and it's getting better, right? Yes, you said it's so ill. It's noticeably better. And if Gary Tan is who's the biggest
00:52:59
complainer about San Francisco, there's a whole sort of rightish group and I wouldn't say right because it's San
00:53:05
Francisco, but they are pretty conservative. Um, you know, is applauding the efforts. And by the way,
00:53:10
everyone's moving back. Mark, just so you know, Elon's back in California. You know, the whole gang of them that
00:53:15
complained is all locating in in San Francisco or California. I just I I it's
00:53:22
like so it I thought he went out on a real limb when he could compare and he was the earliest person and almost like
00:53:28
a class trader, right? Saying Facebook was like cigarette companies. He was right and he took the [ __ ] for that.
00:53:35
He was early and it wasn't he wasn't um virtue signaling because it wasn't a good thing
00:53:40
to say. It didn't work out well for him to do that. But this was I just think he wanted
00:53:46
attention. The other thing that drove me crazy from that interview, and I was was shocked by it. He owns Time magazine for
00:53:52
people who don't know. And by the way, that photo of Trump looks like he has a vagina on his neck, but that's neither here nor there. Um, is that he said, "I
00:54:00
haven't really been reading the news lately about the ICE stuff." And like he he owns a major I don't think it's as
00:54:07
big as it used to be, but he owns a major news publication pretending like, "Well, I don't really know about the
00:54:13
other things. That stuff, give me a [ __ ] break. you're a brilliant guy. Stop it. Like, you know what? You've
00:54:19
decided it's okay or you're going to ignore it. But to say, I really wasn't paying attention. What is there other
00:54:24
things happening here like the IRS or the ICE stuff or anything else? And I I don't It's sort of like I don't know. It
00:54:31
just was just I think he's done a great job with time. Um at least
00:54:36
it's better. Yeah. Or it survived. It wouldn't have survived. It's economically unviable unless you have a I mean like most
00:54:42
unfortunate media companies unless it's owned by a benign billionaire it goes away or it becomes all about cost
00:54:48
cutting or sensationalism to try and get clicks. I don't mind go away. I have to tell you
00:54:53
on some things I think let him go. Yeah, let him die. I think he's done a perfectly good job. But uh I have to say at various points
00:55:00
he said you should come work for me. Honestly, Mark, I'm glad I didn't at this point. This isn't Please say what
00:55:05
Scott said. say you're sorry and you know stop acting like a victim and I know you want that sweet AI money but
00:55:12
honestly ohana man ohana you know he says that all the time all this ohana
00:55:18
well this isn't ohana just so you know all right Scott let's go on a quick break we come back we'll talk about news
00:55:24
outlets pushing back on the defense department's idiotic new regulations
00:55:30
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Make sure to use our URL so they know we sent you.
00:56:27
Scott, we're back with more news. News organizations, including Fox News, have declined to sign the Defense Department's new press policy,
00:56:33
denouncing the regulations in a joint statement. The policy prohibits journalists from gaining information the defense department doesn't make
00:56:39
available for them. It also revokes Pentagon press credentials for those who don't agree. By sign by the signing
00:56:45
deadline, only O one America News had agreed to the policy. Uh they're kind of
00:56:51
a organ of the Trump administration, so that makes sense. Um, you know, I mean,
00:56:56
Pete Hegsth was trying to say, well, it's like the way the White House is, but I I don't think this is the worst
00:57:03
thing for these reporters. They walked out. They can get they can find these other people. They don't have to wander around. It's it's a it's easier if
00:57:09
you're wandering around the Pentagon, I guess. But, uh, I think these outlets did the right thing by just saying, "No,
00:57:14
we're not signing this thing." And I think this is really Pete Headst is usually has mangled and bungled this
00:57:20
entire thing. What are your thoughts? I thought it was a nice moment for the press. They all came together and they
00:57:26
said, "We're not going to put up with this." And um it I think that Secretary
00:57:32
Hexat does not have the confidence or management skills or ability to read the room or the judgment to oversee the most
00:57:38
lethal successful organization in history. Uh and this is just another example of this. This didn't need to
00:57:44
happen. He he's he's created more drama. He's handled this poorly in an effort to
00:57:52
control the press. He's created a bunch of bad press for the Pentagon and the administration. This is, you know, this
00:57:58
is it's blown up in his face. He's his inability to his belief that he could
00:58:04
muscle around journalists backfired. And again, the whole point of
00:58:09
this was to create a sanitized stream of information out of the Pentagon that
00:58:14
would only be complimentary or frame it in a certain way. And if it wasn't if it
00:58:20
wasn't for journalists, I mean, we'd probably still be in Vietnam. I mean, it's just the the the
00:58:27
typically the Secretary of Defense comes from a civilian background because they've decided that generals have a
00:58:33
habit, and not all generals, but generals have a habit of looking for military solutions. And what you need is
00:58:40
a a secretary of defense that understands the private sector and also is quite frankly just more rooted in a
00:58:46
civilian mindset or a geopolitical mindset. And instead we hired a major
00:58:52
who was a TV host to head the secretary, you know, to become the new secretary of war. And this individual just doesn't
00:58:58
have good judgment. So in an attempt to sanitize, politicize, and create a
00:59:04
stream of pre-approved press, they've made it worse. They've created a stream of really negative press saying this is
00:59:11
yet another example of an authoritarian government trying to control the narrative here. And it it kudos to
00:59:18
everyone NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, and Fox all issued a joint statement declining to
00:59:24
agree to the new policy. Weird. Why this? He's also uh lie testing all the employees, too. He's
00:59:30
such a parent. Like, guy, get get off your whatever substances you're using cuz it's making you freaky, you know? I
00:59:36
don't know. I mean, fortunately, this this authoritarian move was handled so
00:59:42
like Trump issuing a cryptocoin that increases his net worth by $5 billion
00:59:48
the Friday night before inauguration was kind of genius. They the timing here was
00:59:54
so elegant. You know, I've always said this. It's like it's like we're this is a mafia family, but unfortunately
01:00:01
unfortunately you have Michael running the corruption and you have Fredo
01:00:06
running the government. Hexath is Fredo. Yeah, he's the person running his crypto scams, the
01:00:12
person running his tour around the Middle East to get to get buildings and golf courses and 747s.
01:00:18
Who is Sunny? Sorry. Oh, that's a really interesting statement. Just I love James Khan.
01:00:24
Yeah. Um, who's Sunny? I love Brian Piccolo. And who is Sunny? Let's think. Who's like
01:00:29
the big who says idiotic? Bessid thinks he's Sunny, but he's not. Remember, I'm going
01:00:37
to beat everyone up. Can I just say I just he seems like and I'm going to bring back a word from our youth. He's such a dork. Like, he's such a dork. Um,
01:00:44
the other thing is, um, let me just say a word very quickly and then we do about access journalism. I was asked by I was
01:00:50
on Katie Drummond's podcast from Wired. I think she's doing an astonishing job at Wired really reinvigorating that
01:00:56
brand. Um, and she asked about access and do I regret and I have to say I
01:01:01
really think that I you get better stories not having
01:01:06
access actually if you if you do really good reporting and you know being at the Wall Street Journal and a little bit at
01:01:12
the Times and the Washington Post, they always bring it to you first, right? and then you sort of agree to release it as
01:01:18
if you got a scoop, but it isn't cuz they hand they hand delivered it to you. Um, I have to say I got a lot better
01:01:24
after I just said [ __ ] access. Like I don't care if they talk to me or not. And I I would say I did too much of that
01:01:31
trading and every reporter does too much of that access stuff. Like I'll give you this if you give me this. And I'm so
01:01:37
happy that they don't want to talk to me now because I can do whatever I want and I still find out more stuff because one
01:01:43
of the things that Hegs doesn't understand is reporting has moved on and there are so many sources. And in the
01:01:48
old days you'd have to either meet someone or get a phone call which was real traceable, right? And so it was
01:01:54
really hard. Now there's so many ways to get to sources and so many ways for them to get to you and to publish on their
01:02:00
own. It's a whole different game. So, as usual, Hegath who is living in the 80s with the way he dresses and does the,
01:02:07
you know, party on G um is is really um way behind in understanding how now they
01:02:14
will double down on finding [ __ ] about him about and and reporting because it's all there. It's not they're not going to
01:02:20
make it up, but he's even people who work for him are like this one spokesperson who had a falling out with
01:02:27
him is like what a [ __ ] idiot. He doesn't understand the modern media age. That's my That's my access thing. No
01:02:34
access is Yeah. I think though, but I think you I I empathize with journalists who are
01:02:41
trying to I mean it you guys have to walk a a fine line and that is you want
01:02:46
to get good interviews and people aren't going to come on your show if they think they're just going to be ambushed.
01:02:52
Yeah. So I I understand the temptation for access journalism. You're at a point where quite frankly you no longer need
01:02:58
to engage in access journalism. So you have the luxury of I think people listen to you when you
01:03:03
speak. You have a big platform. People are a little bit scared of you. People see you as tough but fair.
01:03:08
But I can understand playing into the notion of accent. I do a little I mean I get it. You're an up and
01:03:14
cominging journalist. You don't want to be you don't want everyone to go, "No, I'm not going on her show. She's she's not, you know, not not nice or trying to
01:03:22
make Especially TV ones, by the way. They have a harder time because they need the physical person, right? So
01:03:28
yeah, it's hard. It's hard. Access journalism is incredibly hard and it probably
01:03:33
should go away. Anyway, um uh one more quick break, Scott, and we'll be back
01:03:39
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01:04:41
Okay, Scott. Uh, we're here for predictions, but I can I just make a brief one? Kim Kardashian just launched
01:04:46
an interesting new product for scams. A thong adorned with fake pubic hair. It's already selling out. I predict Scott
01:04:53
Galloway probably bought 10 or 12 of them. This this song, what what is this fake business?
01:04:58
The Skims business is huge. FYI, Kim Kardashian is a great entrepreneur. She works with great entrepreneurs. Skiims
01:05:05
is this under because it's underwear, I guess, and a bunch of other stuff. But the thong is adorned with fake pubic
01:05:11
hair. Um uh I I just feel like I wish I could get one for you. That's all I have
01:05:18
to say. Yeah. No, I'm not I'm not grabbing that one. Um your prediction please. Uh so my prediction is that you're about
01:05:26
to see the greatest. So reality TV was huge. Um kind of probably the biggest
01:05:34
trend in TV through the through the odds. I don't know what was bigger than that. Original scripted comedies. I don't know. Uh the biggest trend in
01:05:41
television over the next uh streaming media and broadcast television over the next two
01:05:47
years is going to be podcast repurposed as TV shows. Oh, I know where you're going.
01:05:53
And if you look at recently Netflix's deal with um Spotify and podcasts,
01:06:00
they've basically said, "Okay, I mean, how did Netflix win the world?" Explain the deal for people who don't
01:06:05
know. So yeah, Spotify and Netflix are partnering to bring podcasts to Netflix. The
01:06:10
partnership will bring video versions of 16 different Spotify exclusive podcast to Netflix. And this is essentially a
01:06:18
shift following Spotify's large investment in the podcast space. They spent billions uh for purchasing studios
01:06:24
like Parkcast, the Ringer and Gimup Media and signing exclusive deals with people ranging from Joe Rogan to Alex
01:06:31
Cooper. And many of these didn't pan out to be profitable. And Spotify learned
01:06:36
that the real value of podcasts isn't just in audio, it's in video. And they're not strong in video. And YouTube is what this really I mean, so YouTube
01:06:44
revealed that over a billion people every month watch and listen to podcasts on YouTube. I think about 18% of our
01:06:50
listens and 25% of PropG listens are on a TV and it's people streaming it off of YouTube. YouTube is the biggest
01:06:57
distribution platform for podcast. Netflix has correctly identified that their competition is not Disney Plus or
01:07:03
Hulu. They've beaten them or Paramount Plus. That that just doesn't matter. Their competition is YouTube. It
01:07:08
commands about 11 or 12% of video listenership. And Netflix is at 8. And
01:07:14
YouTube is big, really big. And podcasting, it's kind of the biggest,
01:07:19
it's the biggest distribution platform for what we're doing now. In addition, Netflix, their strategy and how they won
01:07:25
is through an arbitrage. In this instance, it was a geographic arbitrage where they said, "We're not going to produce stuff. We're going to spend more
01:07:32
money than anyone else, but for spending X, we're going to get 1.2x cuz we're going to produce Squid Games in Soul
01:07:38
Korea and we're going to present, you know, produce money heist in Madrid." The next arbitrage that you're going to
01:07:44
see is effectively podcasts are television with a lower cost means of
01:07:49
production. And that is I think this amazing special effects going on here, but go ahead.
01:07:56
Well, if you look at what's happened and the guy that sort of pioneered this for me, the first thing I did when I arrived
01:08:02
in London, literally when I moved here three and a half years ago, is I got off the plane and I went to Shorttoritch and I was on this podcast that was supposed
01:08:08
to be this up and cominging kid named Steven Bartlett, who I think is the next Joe Rogan, and he's this super
01:08:13
attractive, really great inter interviewer, 31, 32. And I walked into
01:08:18
his podcast studio and there were 12 people in like a six camera shoot. He said, "This is TV. This is and he gets
01:08:27
millions of views on and Chris Williams has a good TV game. Basically the people turnurning in and out of podcasts is
01:08:34
primarily the fulcrum of that churn right now is your video game. And now what is the problem with streaming media
01:08:40
and what is the problem with cable news? Um their audiences on cable news are
01:08:45
declining and streaming media it's a capital war. So all roads lead to the same place and that is they need a way
01:08:51
to create content for a lower cost. And effectively what you have with podcasts, the best podcasts can create 22 20, you
01:08:59
know, 21 minutes or 42 minutes of content for a 30 or 60 minute slot on TV, but they can produce it for 10 to
01:09:05
15% of the cost of the hair, the makeup, the unions, the theater. I mean, it's
01:09:11
just the I did the analysis here. Comcast gets somewhere between two and $300,000 in revenue per employee. pivot
01:09:18
right now this year will get easily over a million dollars per employee because
01:09:24
our means of production are so much less expensive that things are so much more profitable. Well, applying our own makeup and having
01:09:30
a shitty background is really good business is what now you have a good you always have a good background. Can I ask
01:09:36
you a specific question? What I thought was interesting is all these ideas of Netflix moving in and I know you talked
01:09:41
to them for a second um moving into podcasting. This isn't really moving into it. It's taking it two things. is
01:09:48
taking advantage of the current environment and and playing into your strength which is distribution one and
01:09:54
two they're requiring people not to be on YouTube which is a big shift. So obviously they're declaring that YouTube
01:10:01
their enemy their only enemy but um that's exactly right because I bet if we did that something
01:10:07
like that they wouldn't require us not to go on CNN or not they don't care right so so talk about if that's a good trade
01:10:14
for people not to go on YouTube because to me YouTube is television and this is sort of early territory and then the
01:10:20
idea that um they're just dipping they're not really going to produce podcasts the way they produce I don't
01:10:26
know um K-pop demon hunters or whatever it happens to be. They will soon they're going to learn
01:10:33
they they haveund they control other than the Google query box. It's probably
01:10:38
the most valuable real estate in the world is that home screen on Netflix. 150 million people will watch what they
01:10:44
put on that home screen. So within 24 months they're dipping their toe. They're going to learn about it. I bet
01:10:50
within 24 to 36 months Netflix has three of the 10 biggest podcasts in the world and they'll be owned and operated by
01:10:56
Netflix and event you're exactly right. Netflix has said, "Our competitor here is YouTube, so we'll partner with
01:11:02
Spotify, but you can't be on YouTube." But this is what's going to happen on with Cara Swisser. Some really talented
01:11:10
person at CNN will take the two or three hours of content you have every week, take the best 41 minutes and run it on
01:11:16
on an hour on CNN where quite frankly they don't know what to do with that hour. And by the way, it's absolutely
01:11:22
it's it's negligible incremental cost to you, negligible incremental cost to them, and you split the revenue.
01:11:28
Yeah. So, you're going to see you're going to see that the of the 50 biggest podcasts within 12 months.
01:11:36
Yeah. 12 to 20 of them will be playing on TV because what is the problem with cable
01:11:41
news? Doesn't have a good It is a revenue problem, but the bigger problem is the expense side
01:11:46
and the content. It's the same cont. It's not different. It doesn't. It's like the same airless studio.
01:11:52
It's not that interesting and it's really [ __ ] expensive. When I haul my ass up to Yeah. Beyond Stephanie Rules show and we love
01:11:58
her. You look at the the the She does a great job, but the cost of that show, the unions, the makeup, the sound guy,
01:12:05
the security staff, the the build I mean it just the means of production are so goddamn expensive.
01:12:11
Whereas if they say, "Okay, we're going to take 41 minutes of on and we're going to run it after Fared on Sunday or
01:12:17
whatever." And by the way, yeah, even if it even if we only make half as much revenue, we're it's going to be a
01:12:22
lot more profitable. You know what? I haven't gotten that call. They're already producing it.
01:12:27
I have not. Oh, you will. You watch. Anyways, my prediction, by the way, I'm not working for the but that's another
01:12:33
issue. But go ahead. But podcasts are effectively becoming TV shows with a strong audio overlay and
01:12:39
more importantly a lower means of cost of production. Netflix is dipping their toe in. They're going to realize that
01:12:45
the next arbitrage is to take content, repurpose it at a very low incremental
01:12:50
cost, and put it on their distribution platform. And everyone else is going to start doing this. You're going to see
01:12:56
MSNBC take the best political podcasts, carve them up, more graphics, a little
01:13:02
bit better hair and makeup, a little bit better production quality, and they're going to think, "Okay, for an hour of reasonably good content, it costs us
01:13:08
another 10 or 20 grand, not another 150 grand. We don't need to sell to make as
01:13:14
much money here. When they call, you let me know. So anyways, will you let me know when the prediction is of the top 100
01:13:20
podcasts, 12 to 15 of them are going to be playing on cable news and on streaming media within the next 12 to
01:13:27
four months. Hey guys, of cable media, let's do it. Um, I went to the MSNBC live event. I
01:13:32
thought it was quite good. It was quite It was well done. I heard it was great. It was great and it was funny. They they're I gave I the person who runs it,
01:13:39
Rebecca Cutler, who I have a lot of um respect for. She's great and is a big listener of Pivot. Um I sent her some
01:13:45
thoughts of it. I I went to support Stephanie Rachel and Saki Jen Saki and um I thought it was good. It had really
01:13:51
it was a it was a good directional move for them and it was fun and it probably didn't cost them that much and they did
01:13:57
a super fan dinner. I thought it was really smart. It was super It was a marketing event but you know they we let
01:14:03
me tell you there's a lot of crossover fans of MSNBC and Pivot. I took a lot of selfies. Um but um I went with George
01:14:09
Han and it was we had a good time. It was really it was well done. You could see how it could go in even better directions at a much lower cost. Anyway,
01:14:17
we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever is on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for
01:14:23
the show or call 8551 pivot. Elsewhere in the Karen Scott universe, as you know, Scott Andreed Kla Harris for On
01:14:29
with Cara Swisser. Uh let's listen to a clip. Have you yourself felt uh with Leticia James being targeted, there's
01:14:36
many others. Have you felt that you could be targeted, worried about being indicted? Sure. Of course.
01:14:49
For the people that are watching this on radio. Yeah.
01:14:54
See what I just did there? Of course, I just I raised my hand. Okay. Can we just talk about that for a
01:15:01
moment? And this is I think Vice President
01:15:06
Harris will make an outstanding Supreme Court justice. I thought her debate performance was one of the great
01:15:11
performances in political history. I voted for I give money to her campaign.
01:15:16
That answer embodies why she should not run for president and why she is not president. She had an opportunity there
01:15:22
that was a layup to talk about a move towards authoritarianism, how dangerous the chill is, how she is
01:15:28
committed to being a leader and speaking up despite the risk to her professional career. Instead, she just said, "Of
01:15:34
course." Yeah, that perfectly embodied why she does not capture the imagination or the passion
01:15:39
required to be the president of the United States. Let me be fair. She did talk about it a lot during the interview, right? So
01:15:44
maybe, did she? Yeah, she did. And the second part is she really did predict. She did say all this stuff that was
01:15:50
going to happen step by step and she was astonishingly accurate um and precient uh because she understood it as a
01:15:56
prosecutor what these people do which these you know mobster turn autocrats do. Um I would you know it's interesting I
01:16:03
got a lot of feedback from Republicanleaning people like who liked
01:16:08
it like I really liked it because there was a positive negatives and most all of them agreed that her campaign was excellent for most of it not all of it.
01:16:16
Um but uh but I she was a little salty I have to say and I did think it really
01:16:21
compared to um Buddha Judge who had a very different vibe right um so it'll be
01:16:28
I'm going to be interesting all of these people as you have done a number of them um and so I'm going to be interested to
01:16:33
see compare and contrast all of them but you're right that was an opportunity but I think she didn't want to get to be
01:16:39
righteous lady I think she didn't want to go full righteous lady there but uh uh and wanted to seem brave I guess
01:16:46
Do you get the sense? I mean, you you know her and she likes you and you like Well, I don't know if you
01:16:52
like her. You're I think you're I think you're supportive and kind to her. Um do you think she's she's Do you think
01:16:58
she wants to run? I couldn't tell from the thing. I thought I would know. Um it it maybe I I
01:17:06
she probably will. She has the highest name recognition. Let's be clear. She Everyone knows who she is and the others they don't know as well, right? That's
01:17:11
just the way things are. So, so she and Newsome are the best known people, but watching Newsome trot right by her in
01:17:18
the numbers cuz he's trotten and so is Buddha Judge. I I don't part of me feels like she I don't know her that well
01:17:25
enough to say, but I felt like I don't know if she really wants it, right? Does
01:17:31
that make sense? Like she certainly I don't know. I think the I think she
01:17:37
ran a great campaign and she was hindered a lot by the Biden stuff and what she couldn't do. And I know you said she should have said something, but
01:17:43
boy would have that have been a move by someone who's already cautious. But um I don't know. I couldn't I don't
01:17:50
afterwards I didn't I couldn't say. I couldn't say. But you're right. She'd be a great Supreme Court justice also. But
01:17:57
we'll see if we get the chance to put her in course. Um I I I think maybe she isn't going to run. But I'm going to
01:18:02
make a prediction. I don't know. She'll be mad if I But I got the sense that maybe she's still on the fence about it
01:18:09
and that's it. Anyway, we'll see. I I'm I I don't know. I don't know. Anyway, speaking of people who are running, I
01:18:15
had Rahm Emanuel on our He's funny on Raging Moderates. He's actually very good.
01:18:20
He's very good. He's very smart. Very enthusiastic. Very smart. He's doing the work. He's writing opeds. He's going on all the podcasts. He's
01:18:26
No, he's Yeah, he's very smart. Very practical. Yeah. He has a lot of non-fans in Chicago, though. And even he knows this.
01:18:33
But speaking of which, we're going on tour. We're going to be going to Toronto. Sold out. New York. Almost sold
01:18:38
out. DC. I think it's very close to being sold out. Chicago is lagging a little bit. Although we've sold a lot of tickets when we're in a very big theater
01:18:44
compared to the others, but Chicago, let's [ __ ] keep up. Come on, Chicago. Um, it's an extra large venue for you
01:18:51
guys cuz you're, you know, you're the city of big shoulders. Anyway, uh, come see us there and please stay away from
01:18:56
scalpers and third party sellers. We don't want people to take advantage of you just to come and see us. Um, I'm getting a lot of inquiries from people
01:19:02
who want to go to the soldout cities and I'm unable to help. We're not getting very many cops. They're like, "No, you
01:19:08
can have two or something like that." Um, anyway, we're very excited. Are you excited for our tour?
01:19:14
Yeah, I am. Seven cities in seven. And your book is, let me just say, let me give a plug. Your book is coming out
01:19:19
that week, too. So, let's get it on the top of the New York Times bestseller lists. Okay. The number one. Let's give
01:19:25
it number one. I appreciate that. We want to make that. It's a big important topic and everyone is interested in it. Republicans,
01:19:30
Democrats, TBA, whatever you happen to be. Um, I'm going to get a copy each for both of my
01:19:37
sons and uh and Saul would have one, but he doesn't read. Um, okay. That's
01:19:42
Speaking of Chicago, I mean, just real quick, speaking of Chicago, my wife likes to talk on the phone during sex
01:19:47
and last night she called me from Chicago.
01:19:53
Uh, that's pretty good. Does that work? What do you mean? See, now I'm thinking about the mechanics of that.
01:19:59
That's bad on a lot of levels. Put me in the Republican young Republican chat. I'm ready.
01:20:04
Anyway, there you go. That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back
01:20:11
next week. Scott, read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin.
01:20:16
Erdand Tat engineered this episode. Jim M edited the video. Thanks also to Drew Burroughs, Madera, and Dan Shalon.
01:20:23
Micho, Vox Media's executive producer podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thank
01:20:29
you for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine nymag.com/pod.
01:20:34
We'll be back later in the week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
