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So, Vitali, I want to thank you very
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much for spending the time with all of
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us here at Wharton and particularly
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spending the time here with knowledge at
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Wharton. Thank you very much. It's a
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pleasure to come here. So, you say that
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people are materially better off than
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they've ever been in the history of
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Russia. Yes. Um, does that translate
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into
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uh a vibrant market for material goods?
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Is there is there an appetite to buy
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things in Russia? No. Yes, of course.
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There's
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a flood of goods and if you go to
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Moscow, I think that you can buy
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everything that exists in the world. Uh
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and
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uh well there is a lot of all all the
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things possible uh and many
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people not only oligarchs but uh enjoy
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very high standard of living. For
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example careers of young people is are
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very successful. So people uh typical
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situation is that youngsters are
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supporting their parents because
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youngsters earn much more than their
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parents and
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uh many of them have careers that just
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skyrocketed
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and yet at the same time they're not
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optim happy about the state of Russia
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the place that Russia is right now.
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Well, just imagine you have great meal
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but don't have any drink. Ah
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uh you will find out that something's
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something is wrong. Yes. So that's a
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kind of situation that we have now in
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Russia. We have a lot of meal but no
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drink no drink of uh respect,
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selfrespect, mutual respect, protected
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rights, well established society and
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like that. So as when you were hungry
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probably you thought about different
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issues but still as you are not hungry
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in quotes. So if you are materially well
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off then you it's uh more and more
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intolerable the more the richer you are
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the more intolerable the situation is
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becoming. Would you that you mentioned
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uh that part of the depression part of
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the attitude has to do with uh property
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rights or expectations regarding
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property? Well, property rights and
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rights of well the person to be
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protected himself too. So nothing will
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happen to him. And do people still feel
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as insecure as they felt during the
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times immediately after parroka?
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Well, a type of insecurity changed at
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that
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time insecurity
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was because uh different people were in
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the this mess of quick economic and the
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social transformation. Now it's
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insecurity because institution do not
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work properly. So if you are attacked by
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somebody then if he's this person is
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stronger the chances of getting justice
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are less. So a kind of
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uh well I would say that not so much
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life itself is somehow dangerous that's
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that's not that uh you can live happily
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but the feeling
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uh of uh that
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potentially you may be deprived of some
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rights some of your rights. It's like be
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feeling that potentially you can uh be
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ill.
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Well, but this time you are healthy but
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at the same time you understand that you
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have a chance of getting a disease like
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that. So uh I would like to stress that
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ordinary life still is is fine. So it's
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there is no nothing uh nothing dangerous
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nei for natives nor for people who came
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to Russia. Well when you speak of
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general
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ideology
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for a very interesting schism in the
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United States is between people who
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experienced the cold war and people who
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didn't and people who have stereotypes
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about Russian ideology and people who
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don't. Mhm.
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Um the the the demographically the US is
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almost split in half between those who
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do and don't. How how do people in
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Russia perceive relationships with the
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United States? If you look at old very
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old generation,
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uh I was surprised when I was in some
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deep rural areas. Uh and when I asked
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what do you think about the United
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States in the Soviet times? In the
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Soviet times. Yes. Yes. They said
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uh we
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eat we ate
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uh American meal during the World War
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II. So the aid that the United States
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provided to the Soviet Union Yes. They
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were eating canned meat from the US.
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Yeah. Yeah. That's outstanding. Yeah.
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And that was to them
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uh it was extremely important because uh
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it let them survive. It's not additional
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mill but it's a kind of meal that was at
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that time was in scarcity. It has to be
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understood that World War II was
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extremely a time of extreme hardships
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much greater than anything else. Well,
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for
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example, in generation of my father,
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only
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5% of male people survived.
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Wow. 5%. Yes. That's a number that in
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the United States and probably in many
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other countries of the world is almost
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hard to it's almost hard to make sense
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of that number that 5% survived. Yes.
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Yes. So uh people died
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uh there was a hunger
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uh and at the same time we fought and we
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crashed the strongest army in the world
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that time. So that was a difficult time
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and people remember it with American
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meal.
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uh for younger generation of course
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United States is some sort
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of example because well everybody knows
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that mother of modern democracy is
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America. So uh and
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also the whole world is following
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patterns that emerged in the United
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States. So, so it plays this kind of
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role but also there are people who are
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not well satis not satisfied with how
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things are going uh in Russia elsewhere.
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So they sort of well I would say usual
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usual anti- Americanism of uh which
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exist everywhere in Italy
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in the United States. Well, maybe in the
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United States, but but uh I found it in
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a very many different places because
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well, I think that United States brings
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new patterns and the whole world has to
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adapt to this patterns and it's
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sometimes it's a very
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uh it's a hard process actually.
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uh um at the same time I would say that
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uh despite
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stereotypes US and Russia can be
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together much closer than they are
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now. for
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example, the filling of
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uh spaces geographically. We are huge
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countries and and we think I think
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similarly about this kind of uh natural
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spaces. Uh uh maybe it should be
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remembered that Russia was the first
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time first country to recognize United
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States.
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Uh we appreciate that. Ah and in all
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major conflicts we were on the same
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side. That's a really interesting thing
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because we tend to think only of the
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cold war. Yeah. But you you bring out a
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very interesting point. In our actual
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conflicts we've been allies.
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Yes. And so it it looks like uh uh when
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there is nothing to do we invent
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problems.
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As soon as there is a real issue, we are
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together.
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Now, you mentioned um how difficult
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trans transition is. Yeah. And you are
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uniquely situated to talk about those
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difficulties as a member of the Snake
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Hill group. Um can you tell us how the
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Snakeill group formed and and and why?
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Uh yeah and by the way Snake Hill group
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was ready to um think
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about very radical changes in
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approaches. For example when some
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members of the Snake Hill group went to
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Chile uh Chilean reformers were
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surprised to know well surprised the
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first question they got from Russians
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when they talked about Chilean system of
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uh um pension private pension reform. in
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Chilean. Uh the first question was why
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do you need the system at all pension
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system at all? So we were ready to uh
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look
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uh were searching for any decisions
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including radical decisions. So we're uh
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and in
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91 when the Soviet Union collapsed and
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actually e economy collapsed as well. Uh
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there seem to be only one group of
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people who were able
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to
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give consistent recipes what should be
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done. And actually the whole Russian
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economic reforms were two decrees. Well,
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they were most important for Russian
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economic reforms. Uh decree that
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liberalized prices. Prices were set
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free. Mhm. And people could trade in the
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streets. Second decree. So it opened
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uh the way to for people to participate
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in market economy. So since the 1 of
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January 92 market economy in Russia
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started. I think that all other things
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including privatization were
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secondary to this
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