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uh Our Guest today is Omar sa kobash the ambassador of the United Arab Emirates to Russia Omar thank you so much for
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joining us today at knowledge at Wharton thank you well considering that you uh you know have come from the UAE and
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everyone who's thinking about the Middle East these days is concerned about what's happening with terrorism we hear
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news reports all the time about one yet more one more beheading by ISIS I I wonder how you see the situation from
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your perspective uh from the region sure I think uh yeah we're all obviously very
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concerned about the um most recent developments with the development of Isis uh and I think um in in a sense
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Isis uh has has um presented a real uh development uh kind of a qualitative in a negative sense development of
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extremism in the region uh uh the fact that they seem to have what looks like an army uh um revenues from oil uh and
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what's probably the most dangerous thing about them is that they have a very very
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uh attractive uh reductive view of uh how Islam should progress uh and one of the worries is also um that in the realm
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of ideas um they provide all the correct references uh and so that in a sense they legitimize themselves by making
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references that are very very common in the Muslim World about the caliphate about um about fighting both the Persian
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Empire through Bagdad and Iran and then the West presumably representing historical Rome uh and so in in a sense
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they're playing uh to all of the kind of um themes uh that that we we we've been
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educated in so that that's what's extremely worrying um uh the other thing
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that I think is of of interest is that most of the public debate about Isis has been what I think is tactical um how to
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B them out of existence uh and this is going to take many many years uh when I think really the Strategic aim should be
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uh a global a global issue uh an issue for Muslims and an issue for for the Arabs to think about the set of ideas
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and the um the as I said the reductive uh interpretations of our own history uh and our belief system which have led to
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this so how do we do that if you want to take the Strategic view what is the correct response both for uh governments
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in the western world and for countries in the region well I think the first thing to do is to recognize uh that
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there is a strategic element that hasn't been addressed which is the realm of
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ideas um and we've heard about it ever since September 11th that the realm of
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ideas is where the battles really need to be fought uh and that's part of the
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reason why I've continually personally been very interested in where this is
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going and so we often hear about moderate Islam moderate Muslims and I regard myself as as a moderate Muslim um
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and there's frequently called on moderate Muslims to stand up and and and say something uh and that's pretty much
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where it ends so moderate Muslims will appear on television on news uh broadcasts and they will make an appeal
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to other moderate Muslims to say something but they themselves don't say anything so in a sense I think uh we
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moderate Muslims have done Islam a disservice by not providing a a a clear framework for uh young men and women
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whether they're in the west or in Indonesia or in the Arab world to really deal with um the problems of modernity
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uh uh the exist existential crisis that young men will will will face when they haven't got a job they haven't got a
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wife or they haven't got you know any opportunities so how how how do we take
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Islam as this moderate force and provide sustenance to them rather than uh providing uh an extremist version uh of
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Islam that that uh that um satisfies their anger and their and their uh need for um Vengeance of some sort so I think
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we need to really tackle that um and there have been a couple of attempts um for example recently there was uh a
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conference of Peace in Islam and that took place in Abu Dhabi and it was under the uh um uh organization of the
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Ministry of Foreign Affairs so we had um Islamic uh clergy theologians uh thinkers from across the Middle East uh
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and they got together and they they did have this two-day conference um but the the question is are they able to really
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tackle the issues of Arab and Muslim youth uh now I'm somewhat sort of hesitant about giving them uh uh 100% on
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that I think that perhaps it's time for uh uh people of Goodwill um young men
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and women who are concerned about uh where their religion is taking them uh to start thinking for themselves outside
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of you know theological circles and outside of religious authority to begin to really think of uh how we can um
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interpret uh our traditional Islam into modern terms yeah I mean obviously what you saying about the the war at the
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level of ideas if you can call it that or at least the debate at the level of ideas is extremely important uh but do
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you believe that the situation especially with Isis and I'm not singling them out with other aspects of
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uh you know extremist thinking have gone beyond the realm of just debate and and
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need some sort of political or even military solution and if so what should that be well I I I wasn't suggesting
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that uh there shouldn't be tactical Solutions uh for for the short term or whether they're military or or other uh
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but what what is worrying is that Isis um in a sense represents a breakthrough for extremism yes uh and they in their
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ideology do not actually differ that much from other other groups uh who are often called moderate uh by the Western
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press uh who have the same goals uh the same intentions uh but who are described
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as being more pragmatic uh ready to make compromises with the present um who we within the Arab and Muslim Community
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know that um they actually have precisely the same same goals uh which which is essentially uh intolerant and
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and it's a very narrow world view so I'm not saying that you know you you
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shouldn't tackle uh the phenomenon of violent extremism right now perhaps absolutely any thoughts on how it should
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be tackled at the Tactical level no to be honest and I I prefer not to think about that because I don't have a any
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kind of security or military background that would allow me to to understand really what's happening on the on the
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ground so I what's the one thing about this Isis phenomenon that uh hasn't been clearly
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understood by the Western World which it is very important for them to understand I think uh there probably two
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things the first thing is that Isis is a Sunni movement within Iraq essentially uh
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and in a in terms of the battle between Sunni and Shia Islam uh it's very difficult for the
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Sydney World to say no uh and condemn 100% uh I think it's that this is one of
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the key kind of problems that I I find we we we face it's um we are faced with
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an ethical problem and a political problem and in the case of Isis I think uh essentially the political overshadows
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the ethical um and so we have a problem in that there is this perception that um
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the Iranian influence over the region is growing uh and that uh the sunnis of Iraq have genuine Grievances and these
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are the kind of the Warriors of the the the Sunni group so that's that's one of
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the key uh problems that that needs to be resolved now do you resolve that um politically by having an inclusive
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government uh in Iraq well that's one possible approach um but I think the the
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deeper and The Wider issue there is that um perhaps we should begin to think at a
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global level of a grand reconciliation between the Sunnah and the Shia um because we at least uh at the level of
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of leadership uh whether religious political leadership in the region uh have not succeeded to to reconcile
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ourselves with each other um and so that's one thing that I think is really very important for the global uh
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Community to to to look at this issue and and wonder whether it is um it is appropriate for uh 1.1 billion Sunni
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Muslims and 300 million Shia Muslims to be uh so divided um so I think that's
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that's one key issue that needs to be resolved you know it it's sometimes said
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it's very dangerous to make predictions especially about the future yes agreed
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uh but how do you think the situation will play out over the next 12 to 24 months uh I i' prefer to go a little
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further than that if that's okay uh I'm uh actually very optimistic um about the
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situation because I think one of the issues is that in in our part of the world we generally try to paper over
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differences and when the differences are uh now etched in blood um it becomes very very clear what the consequences of
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our differences are um and it also becomes very clear uh what the implications of our beliefs are uh and I
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think that there is um a great deal of interest uh at least amongst the Youth of the Arab world to see uh a better
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future um it's pretty clear um that mass executions of your enemies is not the
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way forward so I'm actually optimistic about the future in the in the Middle
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East great uh I'm really happy to hear that Omar uh given your role as the ambassador to Russia you also uh have
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you know very interesting insights I'm sure about the situation in that country
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uh and especially you know the way things are going with Ukraine uh a lot of people uh all around the world have
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been very concerned about that situation and what it might mean uh uh in geopolitical terms I'd be very
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interested to hear your analysis of the situation and again how do you think it will play out interesting uh my analysis
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is going to be peac meal um I in in a sense I'm caught between two worlds um having a sort of a British
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education and being exposed to um the West in in a direct manner uh and then also having Russian Roots my my mother
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is Russian so I I I I'm almost given an inside track on how people are are thinking there at least at the level of
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kind of political decision- making so it's it's very interesting to see how uh
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how misunderstood different people can be uh it's also interesting to see how
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little they listen to each other uh and how ego plays a role in many uh many conflicts uh and you know as as a
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result I become very interested in the role of uh the Shameless Ambassador uh who can you know take a beating from
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both sides but try to uh see how people can understand each other um the the the
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view from Russia uh on the Ukraine uh is obviously it's colored by the historical
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relationship to the Ukraine it's colored also by the the collapse of the Soviet
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Union um and the promise that NATO wouldn't expand uh and and the it's for my
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Russian colleagues and my Russian friends it's very difficult to see um Russians and ukrainians actually
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fighting it's actually um deeply upsetting yes uh even you know even at the level of decision makers it's
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actually they they talk about it as brothers fighting and they are very upset um
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that that they know that the relationship will never be the way it used to be with the Ukraine they also
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see it in purely geopolitical terms I they translate Western interest in the Ukraine uh from a geopolitical um
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standpoint um so that that's also very interesting so let's assume that we had
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in this room uh Mr Putin and Mr Obama and both of them are turning to you for advice on on what they should do next
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what would you tell them I would tell them to watch the uh um Kissinger Charlie Rose interview he
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got it pretty pretty pretty straight which is leave the Ukraine come to some kind of agreement don't ask the Ukraine
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to take sides uh and just essentially postpone uh the day of judgment great well uh from from from the Middle East
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and from Russia wonder if we could turn now uh to to the UAE uh uh and and and especially some of the educational
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initiatives over there uh I I know that you personally were involved in in helping uh you know some institutions
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you know move to the the the UAE could you tell me a little bit about how you see the educational needs of the region
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uh today and how they will evolve over the next few years well you know again after September 11th there was this
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great interest Global interest and the Educational Systems of the Middle East and the Muslim world uh there's some big
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sort of criticis Syms of rote learning and and uh you not having a policy or of of inquiry basically not encouraging
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inquiry uh and so governments in the region took up uh the opportunity to invest tremendous amount of money into
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education now um it I'm I I criticize only from the point of view that I think
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we could always do better uh and the situation I see today is that we have a a large number of sort of vocational
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technical colleges colleges that focus on business on on on creating these opportunities entrepreneurial
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opportunities which is all all very useful and very interesting but what I've always wanted to see is a much
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broader education so um you you you can have your engineering degree but you need to be also informed by the social
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sciences by Philosophy by history uh to be able to place your engineering uh tradition within a context so that you
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know why you are building it's not purely to create economic value or purely to reinvest the uh proceeds of
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oil and I think that's one of the problems that we've got at the moment is
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that uh either whether it's in the Arabic language or whether it's in sort
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of English language education in the region we don't look at history as a a a
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place of of debate uh of opinion of proof and evidence uh we we have these again reductive histories um and so you
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have a checklist of facts uh a selective facts that are supposedly um to help you
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Orient yourself in the world uh and I think that's that's one of the key
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problems now why is a western uh educational institution important uh it's I I remember being told that this
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was a case of Western intellectual imperialism and my response to that was at least they ask
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questions and that's the most important thing about it uh if if we if we look at
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education as opportunity to be fed opinions then yes it is imperialism but if we are taught uh the art of asking
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questions repeatedly uh then you've got an education and that's why I still
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support um Western education in the region yeah I think you're so right because very often uh people think about
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education as uh you know something that tells you what to think rather than it should really be teaching you how to
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think yeah absolutely uh so uh uh if you were to think about the the role uh of uh education in the region uh and
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collaboration with Western institutions how has the experience been and where do
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you think this could lead in the future uh I think um I think the experience has been broadly positive um
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it's going to be interesting to to begin to see these graduates then uh fill uh
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places whether in government or in business uh in the region uh one of the other things is that the Emirates uh has
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tried to be a magnet for students from uh in the surrounding region and I think that's extremely important uh in a sense
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what it'll do is it'll create that kind of personal connectivity um with let's
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be honest Elites from Iran or India Pakistan Iraq and Saudi Arabia um and to be able to have that kind of personal
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understanding uh is going to be very very important I remember having a a wonderful discussion some years ago with
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shik nahan when he was education Minister yeah and I was all very struck by one of the things he said which is uh
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when I asked him the Festival of thinkers which is one of the great initiatives you have in the UAE he said
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we know that the oil is not going to last forever sure and when that day comes the only thing that will keep us
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competitive is the quality of human capital that we have and that we are able to offer in the world do you think
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that process is is going smoothly from your point of view and if not what are the primary obstacles that need to be
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dealt with that's a very interesting question you know knowing that that is actually policy of the government uh and
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knowing that it actually it's a policy that uh that comes out of the nature of
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the the leadership of the Emirates where they actually value the individual is is
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is very important uh what I think um is happening is again we've got these very
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powerful forces within the Middle East and within Islamic thinking that are pulling kids to very simplistic
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interpretations of the world uh and rather than you know often I think why would a Jihad or a suicide balma go and
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do what he does or what she does um and and I times I think that they're just
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very very selfish uh and lacking in responsibility now they would think that actually they're they're they're they're
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selfless because they're giving their lives uh and and taking full responsibility we're actually
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um losing your life in Jihad you know in in three months from now is the easy way
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out the tough one is to learn face uh daily uh troubles uh uh get married and have children bringing
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up children is unbelievably difficult uh these are the true responsibilities and
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this is the true challenge I think that people need to refocus on uh and and that's what needs to be uh raised up as
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a holy way of living uh rather than this whole idea of going off and blowing yourself up in the desert somewhere for
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as Canon fer in somebody else's game I think that's great way to sort of
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come back to where we started in the beginning how how do you think that message can be communicated most
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effectively to the Youth of the region I have to be honest I think it's going to
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have to come from people speaking out and speaking I'm going to be honest in
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in the manner that I'm speaking to you today um very often uh we we have a um
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we have a a traditional respect for uh somebody on a higher position whether it's a job or or in the community or uh
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age uh and so we don't have that kind of inter Direction I think we need to get
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beyond that um uh you know we've got uh you know people of my generation and and
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the generation before me of educated and and and well traveled uh and there's
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absolutely no reason uh to maintain that kind of patriarchal uh uh approach uh to
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youth uh and the reason I think that's it's very important that we stop um
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treating youth with distance is because there are recruiters out there who are making sure uh that they grab those
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youth from us and I think that's that's the challenge great Omar thank you so
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much for speaking to Wharton thank you [Music]