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uh Our Guest today is Omar sa kobash the
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ambassador of the United Arab Emirates
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to Russia Omar thank you so much for
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joining us today at knowledge at Wharton
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thank you well considering that you uh
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you know have come from the UAE and
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everyone who's thinking about the Middle
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East these days is concerned about
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what's happening with terrorism we hear
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news reports all the time about one yet
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more one more beheading by ISIS I I
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wonder how you see the situation from
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your perspective uh from the region sure
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I think uh yeah we're all obviously very
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concerned about the um most recent
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developments with the development of
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Isis uh and I think um in in a sense
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Isis uh has has um presented a real uh
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development uh kind of a qualitative in
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a negative sense development of
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extremism in the region uh uh the fact
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that they seem to have what looks like
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an army uh um revenues from oil uh and
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what's probably the most dangerous thing
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about them is that they have a very very
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uh attractive uh reductive view of uh
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how Islam should progress uh and one of
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the worries is also um that in the realm
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of ideas um they provide all the correct
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references uh and so that in a sense
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they legitimize themselves by making
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references that are very very common in
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the Muslim World about the caliphate
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about um about fighting both the Persian
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Empire through Bagdad and Iran and then
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the West presumably representing
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historical Rome uh and so in in a sense
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they're playing uh to all of the kind of
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um themes uh that that we we we've been
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educated in so that that's what's
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extremely worrying um uh the other thing
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that I think is of of interest is that
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most of the public debate about Isis has
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been what I think is tactical um how to
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B them out of existence uh and this is
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going to take many many years uh when I
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think really the Strategic aim should be
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uh a global a global issue uh an issue
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for Muslims and an issue for for the
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Arabs to think about the set of ideas
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and the um the as I said the reductive
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uh interpretations of our own history uh
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and our belief system which have led to
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this so how do we do that if you want to
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take the Strategic view what is the
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correct response both for uh governments
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in the western world and for countries
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in the region well I think the first
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thing to do is to recognize uh that
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there is a strategic element that hasn't
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been addressed which is the realm of
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ideas um and we've heard about it ever
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since September 11th that the realm of
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ideas is where the battles really need
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to be fought uh and that's part of the
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reason why I've continually personally
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been very interested in where this is
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going and so we often hear about
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moderate Islam moderate Muslims and I
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regard myself as as a moderate Muslim um
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and there's frequently called on
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moderate Muslims to stand up and and and
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say something uh and that's pretty much
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where it ends so moderate Muslims will
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appear on television on news uh
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broadcasts and they will make an appeal
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to other moderate Muslims to say
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something but they themselves don't say
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anything so in a sense I think uh we
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moderate Muslims have done Islam a
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disservice by not providing a a a clear
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framework for uh young men and women
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whether they're in the west or in
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Indonesia or in the Arab world to really
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deal with um the problems of modernity
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uh uh the exist existential crisis that
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young men will will will face when they
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haven't got a job they haven't got a
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wife or they haven't got you know any
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opportunities so how how how do we take
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Islam as this moderate force and provide
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sustenance to them rather than uh
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providing uh an extremist version uh of
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Islam that that uh that um satisfies
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their anger and their and their uh need
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for um Vengeance of some sort so I think
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we need to really tackle that um and
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there have been a couple of attempts um
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for example recently there was uh a
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conference of Peace in Islam and that
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took place in Abu Dhabi and it was under
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the uh um uh organization of the
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Ministry of Foreign Affairs so we had um
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Islamic uh clergy theologians uh
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thinkers from across the Middle East uh
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and they got together and they they did
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have this two-day conference um but the
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the question is are they able to really
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tackle the issues of Arab and Muslim
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youth uh now I'm somewhat sort of
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hesitant about giving them uh uh 100% on
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that I think that perhaps it's time for
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uh uh people of Goodwill um young men
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and women who are concerned about uh
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where their religion is taking them uh
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to start thinking for themselves outside
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of you know theological circles and
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outside of religious authority to begin
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to really think of uh how we can um
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interpret uh our traditional Islam into
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modern terms yeah I mean obviously what
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you saying about the the war at the
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level of ideas if you can call it that
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or at least the debate at the level of
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ideas is extremely important uh but do
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you believe that the situation
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especially with Isis and I'm not
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singling them out with other aspects of
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uh you know extremist thinking have gone
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beyond the realm of just debate and and
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need some sort of political or even
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military solution and if so what should
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that be well I I I wasn't suggesting
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that uh there shouldn't be tactical
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Solutions uh for for the short term or
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whether they're military or or other uh
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but what what is worrying is that Isis
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um in a sense represents a breakthrough
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for extremism yes uh and they in their
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ideology do not actually differ that
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much from other other groups uh who are
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often called moderate uh by the Western
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press uh who have the same goals uh the
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same intentions uh but who are described
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as being more pragmatic uh ready to make
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compromises with the present um who we
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within the Arab and Muslim Community
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know that um they actually have
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precisely the same same goals uh which
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which is essentially uh intolerant and
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and it's a very narrow world view so I'm
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not saying that you know you you
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shouldn't tackle uh the phenomenon of
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violent extremism right now perhaps
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absolutely any thoughts on how it should
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be tackled at the Tactical level no to
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be honest and I I prefer not to think
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about that because I don't have a any
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kind of security or military background
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that would allow me to to understand
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really what's happening on the on the
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ground so I what's the one thing about
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this Isis
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phenomenon that uh hasn't been clearly
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understood by the Western World which it
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is very important for them to
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understand I think uh there probably two
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things the first thing is that Isis is a
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Sunni
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movement within Iraq essentially uh
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and in a in terms of the battle between
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Sunni and Shia
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Islam uh it's very difficult for the
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Sydney World to say no uh and condemn
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100% uh I think it's that this is one of
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the key kind of problems that I I find
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we we we face it's um we are faced with
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an ethical problem and a political
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problem and in the case of Isis I think
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uh essentially the political overshadows
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the ethical um and so we have a problem
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in that there is this perception that um
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the Iranian influence over the region is
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growing uh and that uh the sunnis of
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Iraq have genuine Grievances and these
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are the kind of the Warriors of the the
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the Sunni group so that's that's one of
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the key uh problems that that needs to
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be resolved now do you resolve that um
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politically by having an inclusive
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government uh in Iraq well that's one
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possible approach um but I think the the
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deeper and The Wider issue there is that
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um perhaps we should begin to think at a
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global level of a grand reconciliation
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between the Sunnah and the Shia um
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because we at least uh at the level of
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of leadership uh whether religious
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political leadership in the region uh
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have not succeeded to to reconcile
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ourselves with each other um and so
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that's one thing that I think is really
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very important for the global uh
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Community to to to look at this issue
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and and wonder whether it is um it is
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appropriate for uh 1.1 billion Sunni
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Muslims and 300 million Shia Muslims to
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be uh so divided um so I think that's
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that's one key issue that needs to be
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resolved you know it it's sometimes said
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it's very dangerous to make predictions
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especially about the future yes agreed
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uh but how do you think the situation
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will play out over the next 12 to 24
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months uh I i' prefer to go a little
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further than that if that's okay uh I'm
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uh actually very optimistic um about the
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situation because I think one of the
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issues is that in in our part of the
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world we generally try to paper over
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differences and when the differences are
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uh now etched in blood um it becomes
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very very clear what the consequences of
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our differences are um and it also
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becomes very clear uh what the
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implications of our beliefs are uh and I
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think that there is um a great deal of
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interest uh at least amongst the Youth
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of the Arab world to see uh a better
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future um it's pretty clear um that mass
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executions of your enemies is not the
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way forward so I'm actually optimistic
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about the future in the in the Middle
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East great uh I'm really happy to hear
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that Omar uh given your role as the
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ambassador to Russia you also uh have
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you know very interesting insights I'm
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sure about the situation in that country
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uh and especially you know the way
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things are going with Ukraine uh a lot
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of people uh all around the world have
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been very concerned about that situation
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and what it might mean uh uh in
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geopolitical terms I'd be very
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interested to hear your analysis of the
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situation and again how do you think it
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will play out interesting uh my analysis
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is going to be peac meal um
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I in in a sense I'm caught between two
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worlds um having a sort of a British
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education and being exposed to um the
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West in in a direct manner uh and then
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also having Russian Roots my my mother
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is Russian so I I I I'm almost given an
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inside track on how people are are
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thinking there at least at the level of
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kind of political decision- making so
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it's it's very interesting to see how uh
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how misunderstood different people can
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be uh it's also interesting to see how
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little they listen to each other
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uh and how ego plays a role in many uh
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many conflicts uh and you know as as a
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result I become very interested in the
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role of uh the Shameless Ambassador uh
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who can you know take a beating from
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both sides but try to uh see how people
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can understand each other um the the the
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view from Russia uh on the Ukraine uh is
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obviously it's colored by the historical
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relationship to the Ukraine it's colored
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also by the the collapse of the Soviet
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Union um and the promise that NATO
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wouldn't
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expand uh and and the it's for my
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Russian colleagues and my Russian
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friends it's very difficult to see um
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Russians and ukrainians actually
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fighting it's actually um deeply
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upsetting yes uh even you know even at
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the level of decision makers it's
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actually they they talk about it as
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brothers fighting and they are very
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upset um
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that that they know that the
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relationship will never be the way it
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used to be with the Ukraine they also
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see it in purely geopolitical terms I
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they translate Western interest in the
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Ukraine uh from a geopolitical um
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standpoint um so that that's also very
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interesting so let's assume that we had
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in this room uh Mr Putin and Mr Obama
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and both of them are turning to you for
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advice on on what they should do next
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what would you tell
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them I would tell them to watch the uh
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um Kissinger Charlie Rose interview he
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got it pretty pretty pretty straight
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which is leave the Ukraine come to some
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kind of agreement don't ask the Ukraine
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to take sides uh and just essentially
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postpone uh the day of judgment great
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well uh from from from the Middle East
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and from Russia wonder if we could turn
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now uh to to the UAE uh uh and and and
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especially some of the educational
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initiatives over there uh I I know that
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you personally were involved in in
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helping uh you know some institutions
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you know move to the the the UAE could
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you tell me a little bit about how you
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see the educational needs of the region
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uh today and how they will evolve over
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the next few years well you know again
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after September 11th there was this
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great interest Global interest and the
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Educational Systems of the Middle East
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and the Muslim world uh there's some big
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sort of criticis Syms of rote learning
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and and uh you not having a policy or of
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of inquiry basically not encouraging
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inquiry uh and so governments in the
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region took up uh the opportunity to
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invest tremendous amount of money into
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education now um it I'm I I criticize
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only from the point of view that I think
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we could always do better uh and the
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situation I see today is that we have a
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a large number of sort of vocational
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technical colleges colleges that focus
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on business on on on creating these
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opportunities entrepreneurial
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opportunities which is all all very
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useful and very interesting but what
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I've always wanted to see is a much
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broader education so um you you you can
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have your engineering degree but you
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need to be also informed by the social
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sciences by Philosophy by history uh to
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be able to place your engineering uh
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tradition within a context so that you
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know why you are building it's not
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purely to create economic value or
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purely to reinvest the uh proceeds of
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oil and I think that's one of the
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problems that we've got at the moment is
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that uh either whether it's in the
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Arabic language or whether it's in sort
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of English language education in the
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region we don't look at history as a a a
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place of of debate uh of opinion of
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proof and evidence uh we we have these
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again reductive histories um and so you
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have a checklist of facts uh a selective
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facts that are supposedly um to help you
00:15:02
Orient yourself in the world uh and I
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think that's that's one of the key
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problems now why is a western uh
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educational institution important uh
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it's I I remember being told that this
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was a case of Western intellectual
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imperialism and my response to that was
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at least they ask
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questions and that's the most important
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thing about it uh if if we if we look at
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education as opportunity to be fed
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opinions then yes it is imperialism but
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if we are taught uh the art of asking
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questions repeatedly uh then you've got
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an education and that's why I still
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support um Western education in the
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region yeah I think you're so right
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because very often uh people think about
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education as uh you know something that
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tells you what to think rather than it
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should really be teaching you how to
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think yeah absolutely uh so uh uh if you
00:15:56
were to think about the the role uh of
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uh education in the region uh and
00:16:01
collaboration with Western institutions
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how has the experience been and where do
00:16:06
you think this could lead in the
00:16:08
future uh I think um I think the
00:16:11
experience has been broadly positive um
00:16:13
it's going to be interesting to to begin
00:16:14
to see these graduates then uh fill uh
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places whether in government or in
00:16:18
business uh in the region uh one of the
00:16:21
other things is that the Emirates uh has
00:16:23
tried to be a magnet for students from
00:16:25
uh in the surrounding region and I think
00:16:27
that's extremely important uh in a sense
00:16:30
what it'll do is it'll create that kind
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of personal connectivity um with let's
00:16:36
be honest Elites from Iran or India
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Pakistan Iraq and Saudi Arabia um and to
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be able to have that kind of personal
00:16:44
understanding uh is going to be very
00:16:46
very important I remember having a a
00:16:49
wonderful discussion some years ago with
00:16:51
shik nahan when he was education
00:16:53
Minister yeah and I was all very struck
00:16:55
by one of the things he said which is uh
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when I asked him the Festival of
00:16:59
thinkers which is one of the great
00:17:00
initiatives you have in the UAE he said
00:17:04
we know that the oil is not going to
00:17:05
last forever sure and when that day
00:17:08
comes the only thing that will keep us
00:17:10
competitive is the quality of human
00:17:13
capital that we have and that we are
00:17:15
able to offer in the world do you think
00:17:17
that process is is going smoothly from
00:17:19
your point of view and if not what are
00:17:21
the primary obstacles that need to be
00:17:23
dealt with that's a very interesting
00:17:25
question you know knowing that that is
00:17:28
actually policy of the government uh and
00:17:31
knowing that it actually it's a policy
00:17:32
that uh that comes out of the nature of
00:17:35
the the leadership of the Emirates where
00:17:37
they actually value the individual is is
00:17:39
is very important uh what I think um is
00:17:43
happening is again we've got these very
00:17:45
powerful forces within the Middle East
00:17:47
and within Islamic thinking that are
00:17:49
pulling kids to very simplistic
00:17:52
interpretations of the world uh and
00:17:55
rather than you know often I think why
00:17:57
would a Jihad or a suicide balma go and
00:18:00
do what he does or what she does um and
00:18:03
and I times I think that they're just
00:18:06
very very selfish uh and lacking in
00:18:09
responsibility now they would think that
00:18:10
actually they're they're they're they're
00:18:12
selfless because they're giving their
00:18:14
lives uh and and taking full
00:18:16
responsibility we're actually
00:18:19
um losing your life in Jihad you know in
00:18:23
in three months from now is the easy way
00:18:26
out the tough one is to
00:18:29
learn face uh daily uh troubles uh uh
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get married and have children bringing
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up children is unbelievably difficult uh
00:18:39
these are the true responsibilities and
00:18:41
this is the true challenge I think that
00:18:42
people need to refocus on uh and and
00:18:46
that's what needs to be uh raised up as
00:18:48
a holy way of living uh rather than this
00:18:51
whole idea of going off and blowing
00:18:52
yourself up in the desert somewhere for
00:18:54
as Canon fer in somebody else's
00:18:56
game I think that's great way to sort of
00:18:59
come back to where we started in the
00:19:01
beginning how how do you think that
00:19:03
message can be communicated most
00:19:05
effectively to the Youth of the region I
00:19:08
have to be honest I think it's going to
00:19:10
have to come from people speaking out
00:19:11
and speaking I'm going to be honest in
00:19:13
in the manner that I'm speaking to you
00:19:15
today um very often uh we we have a um
00:19:19
we have a a traditional respect for uh
00:19:21
somebody on a higher position whether
00:19:23
it's a job or or in the community or uh
00:19:26
age uh and so we don't have that kind of
00:19:28
inter Direction I think we need to get
00:19:29
beyond that um uh you know we've got uh
00:19:32
you know people of my generation and and
00:19:34
the generation before me of educated and
00:19:37
and and well traveled uh and there's
00:19:40
absolutely no reason uh to maintain that
00:19:42
kind of patriarchal uh uh approach uh to
00:19:45
youth uh and the reason I think that's
00:19:47
it's very important that we stop um
00:19:49
treating youth with distance is because
00:19:52
there are recruiters out there who are
00:19:55
making sure uh that they grab those
00:19:57
youth from us and I think that's that's
00:19:59
the challenge great Omar thank you so
00:20:01
much for speaking to Wharton thank you
00:20:07
[Music]
