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we're here today with sfia oasa CEO of
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Lviv business school in Ukraine Sophia
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yesterday 97% of the voters in Crimea
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decided they wanted to secede from
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Ukraine and be annexed by Russia what do
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you make of
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this well um I don't think that people
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in the world believe that that was
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97% because if you have uh elections and
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the conditions which and pressure uh
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which was happening yesterday in Crimea
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and which is happening already for two
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weeks in Crimea I don't think that this
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is like real world um of people and that
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um that uh people in Crimea uh even many
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of those who would think that um it's
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going to be better with Russia that they
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are aware of all the facts that they
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aware of all the situation and um that
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they that they take conscious decision
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right now
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what do you think Russian President
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Vladimir Putin Putin has on his agenda
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he's going to talk to I think both
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houses of Parliament tomorrow what is he
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going to tell
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them
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well what you know there might be
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difference between what he's going to
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tell and what's on his agenda so um I
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don't know what he's going to tell but
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um speaking about agenda I think that um
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he did not really like what was
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happening in Ukraine over last
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months um I think the uh plan was to
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have um some kind of um um some kind of
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unity between couple of countries like
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Russia Kazakhstan Belarus and Ukraine
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economically but also I think that was
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very much about political influence uh
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because
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um that was something uh related to
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dictatorship and not real democra y that
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was something um uh related with um
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absence of free media and um um of
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violating human rights um so so the
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whole the whole protest which took place
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in Ukraine that was really against those
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things but also against corruption which
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I think all of us are aware um take
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place not only in Ukraine but Tes takes
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place in Russia um maybe in a little bit
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different woran but but it still happens
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there um so I think he does not really
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like what happened in Ukraine and this
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is um his opportunity to take care that
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those processes do not happen in
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Russia so what do you think the decision
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uh after the referendum will mean for
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Ukraine going
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forward well I think Ukraine in no
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matter what happens with Crimea needs to
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do very important important economic
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reforms and reforms overall reforms in
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in um um uh rule of law uh reforms
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economic reform administrative reforms
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if we I mean we were not really doing
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them for 23 years and um one of the
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reasons why people in Crimea would like
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to go with Russia because they they did
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not find economic um wealth in Ukraine
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and they they look for uh different
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opportunity so if if economically
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Ukraine would be doing differently I
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don't think that would be an issue at
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all um so no matter what happens with
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Crimea I think um it's very difficult
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it's very difficult for many people
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emotionally you know keep doing work and
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focusing on reforms but this is
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definitely what we need to do in short
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term because when of of opportunity for
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Ukraine is very short right now and we
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have to take this uh moment but what do
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you think that the the new government in
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Kiev ought to do in response to Putin's
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actions um well it's very important that
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we do not allow the same things in in
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other Eastern oblas regions in Ukraine
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um there are some tries
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to um with with people brought from
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Russia you know waving Russian flag and
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uh to destabilize situation and I think
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that's very important right now to have
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the situation stable in the
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country um we are still I think we as a
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count still look for some diplomatic
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Solutions and in that sense I think um I
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think our new government did a great job
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you know uh working with other
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International
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peers um and
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yes Beyond the politics what are the
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economic advantages of Ukraine aligning
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with Europe as opposed to
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Russia uh well there were a lot of
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discussions you know what Ukraine will
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gain with Europe what Ukraine will lose
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with Europe well maybe for some um uh
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for some Industries it's not very very
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well to go with Europe and um I think
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the major issue for ukrainians is that
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going with Europe should create a
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different system of management in the
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country it was for us I think uh it was
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uh one of the main reasons how we can
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get how we can become more transparent
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country how the rule of law can start
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working um so that people don't have to
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go to the court and bribe for the for
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the decision of the Court um which means
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that other counterpart knows from the
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very beginning that if you don't bribe
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you don't get the decision we need to
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get rid rid of those issues and for us
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um we have a lot of questions towards
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Europe as well I mean it's not that we
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support the way of life 100% you know we
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have some differences in values and in
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some sense we um we are um we would like
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to go with some things like we do in
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Ukraine but still uh the most important
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is how the
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system is is running the country and and
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that was the most important thing and
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again you know know I I I understand
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that some industri might lose but I'm
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sure that those are not knowledge-based
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Industries those are most probably last
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century or last two centuries Industries
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which we need to to reform in any way
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and this can be also a good uh reason I
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know it's going to be tough I know it's
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not going to be easy and in short term
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we might lose but the question is would
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you like to win in short term or in long
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term so in Moscow today according to
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press reports these sanctions that the
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US government did impose today were met
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basically with derision and mockery in
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fact the Russian stock market I think
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went up assuming that everyone both
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sides want a diplomatic resolution no
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one's interested in a military one what
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types of sanctions could the US and EU
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impose that would be effective but not
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drive drive both sides into into a
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deeper
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disagreement uh well I think you have
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posted the question very in in very
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right way that assuming two sides would
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like a diplomatic resolution well
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unfortunately we don't really see that
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the other side would like to have this
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diplomatic resolution even moreover I
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think that um there is even more and
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more pressure um how not to resolve it
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diplomatically but if I were to answer
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the question how this can how the
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situation can be influenced you know
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from outside of the world um outside of
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Ukraine world
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um um I think that has to do something
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with energy
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issues
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um well Russia is uh selling oil selling
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gas and definitely it's one of the major
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uh sources of income in the country to
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the to the country so I think if um
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there was a way somehow to influence
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that would be the way to do it for the
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energy sector most probably what's what
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do you think is going to happen to the
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minorities in Crimea the the people who
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did not want to join rejoin Russia well
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thank you very much for this question
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because
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unfortunately uh very often this
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question is not asked about other
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minorities which are not Russian
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minority in Crimea um in reality well
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Russian Russians have the majority uh
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about 50% of of the population in Crimea
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are Russians but they were not
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ethnically settled there ethnically were
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Crimean
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tatars uh who make about
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20% and uh they were deported by Stalin
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and then 23 years ago when Ukraine
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gained
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independence um they had they got the
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chance to come back to Crimea there are
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also ukrainians there who make also
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about 20% and then there are about 10%
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of other ethnical groups Greeks
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Armenians uh Georgians so very very huge
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mixture um what will happen to them
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neither tatars nor ukrainians uh nor
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many other minorities who live in Crimea
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accept the results of the referendum and
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the whole situation
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itself uh so unfortunately we will have
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very many refugees
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uh in my opinion Crimea will become
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nothing will be happening there so it
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will be it might be kind of Silent War
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which can last for very long time like
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it happens in
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Pria or it happens in uh abazia or North
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Atia um which means there is kind of no
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war there but nothing H happens no
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tourists no in no development of
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infrastructure just you know
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Frozen
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um the way it
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is um so so most probably a lot of
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refugees will move to to Ukraine to to
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Mainland Ukraine if we can say that way
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uh I know that Western Ukraine already
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gets a lot of refugees uh especially
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from Crimean
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tataris um there were a lot of pictures
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already uh quite uh from Crimea which
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are quite offensive to creman tatars
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and um I think that in reality one of
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the major reasons why Ukraine is so uh
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focusing on the situation in Crimea and
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tries to keep Crimea um with with the
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whole Ukraine sovereignity is also
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because not only ukrainians but uh
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Crimean tatars who don't have other land
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to live could you explain a little bit
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what the impact of the agitation in
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Ukraine
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has been on the Lviv Business School uh
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and and how how how has it affected you
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and what do you think is going to happen
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going forward of the situation how it
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influenced the
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school uh well it well our University it
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it was always I I should talk not only
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for the school but for the University
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overall Ukrainian Catholic University we
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always have been in very proest Western
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position in the education as well so for
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this reason we had quite a lot of um uh
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difficulties with former minister of
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Education who was very Pro Russian and
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uh who was putting a lot of pressure on
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our institution and he was trying to
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control as much as possible
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universities um in what sort of ways was
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that control exercised
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well well for example we are we're
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completely private institution and we
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don't get the penny from the state but
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in a way still we get a lot of um uh
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rules a lot of uh um from Ministry of
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Education uh they provide accreditation
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for example it's not um it's not the um
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independent body or Association
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providing accreditation to the
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universities but it is Ministry of
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Education so you have to go for license
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there you have to go for accreditation
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you have to um the books have to be
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under um the signature of Ministry of
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Education so there are a lot a lot there
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was a lot of controlled things uh plus
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there was a huge corruption in the
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Ministry of Education for example all
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institutions had to put down some um uh
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some database system and they had to buy
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it from some relative of minister of
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Education company so so the whole system
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is is very is very corrupt and very uh
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interdependent and our institution was
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always honestly saying that we believe
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that this should be according this
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International standards this should be
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according to these best practices in
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Western countries um and of course this
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was not liked very much um so uh from
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the very very first day for students and
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for the faculty body it was not the
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choice what we should do um I think a
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lot of things were run by students a lot
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of initiatives were run by students and
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um Administration and um faculty members
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were always supportive uh a lot of
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people as individuals participated in
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the protest um well um yes we had
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somehow to to to change the way we are
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working you know sometimes uh we are
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doing right now some social things which
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are not directly related to our work uh
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but at the same time I think one of
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still important rool which we have right
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now is to build the community I think
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the university and the Business School
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itself has very high level of trust from
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business community and from Community
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overall and it's not only about leiv
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it's about cave as well um it was always
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very transparent institution and um this
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level of trust which we have um it it um
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you know we we could see it in in very
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different initiativ which we started and
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how they were supported and people very
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often right now they they like to come
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for our events though that the time is
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not uh easy but they like to come and to
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see how other people think what they
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think to discuss to you know just to be
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together what is the outlook for uh us
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and European companies who do business
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in Ukraine or or want to do business in
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Ukraine what what can they look forward
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to in the next year
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year uh well last years were quite
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difficult we did not really were getting
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investments in Ukraine um for the same
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reasons you cannot plan longterm you
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cannot um uh you have to deal with uh a
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lot of bureaucratic issues so one of the
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um very important reforms which we need
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to do is deregulate we need to create
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environment for Innovations
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entrepreneurship
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and uh this is one of the first
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initiatives which our Min uh Ministry of
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Economics is right now focusing on um
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also from our business school a lot of
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alumni are involved in the regional
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projects of D regulation so that
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business people are telling from
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business side how this reform should be
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done in a way that they can run business
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in a transparent way but at the same
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time that it's not controlled completely
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um by um government um in a way
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International companies were in better
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situation because many Ukrainian
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companies that they had additional
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challenge um they did not have very good
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environment for doing business but at
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the same time if you were doing business
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it could have been taken away um just
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you you know companies were offered
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amount of money and either you sell for
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this amount of money which is half of
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the price of the company or you lose it
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so there was a lot of pressure on
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Ukrainian companies as
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well so 3 months ago could you ever have
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anticipated where you would be and and
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how far you would have come and is the
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euphoria that you all must have felt
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several weeks ago month ago is that
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sustainable is that still there is there
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still a sense that things will move
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forward and get
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better if you would ask me in October is
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it possible
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that people in this country after not
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fulfilled expectations of orange
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Revolution would be able to get out of
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the streets I would not believe you I
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mean I I would say no definitely no
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everybody were you know I would say had
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enough of the what is going on in the
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country but I don't think people really
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believed but what happened is that in 23
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years there was um no situation that
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then people were injured or or killed
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you know so be there was everything in a
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peaceful manner done in
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Ukraine um and and that was a huge shift
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for many people that that such things
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could happen in the country and um I I
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would never say that it would you know
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it comes sometimes we think okay we
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cannot it cannot be more than that but
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then there is another month and and it's
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more more than
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that um about aphia I don't think we had
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aphia this time I mean we were happy
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that um we were happy that it's almost
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ended though now we see that it did not
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end but um because so many people were
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lost because so many people died and
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those people were just amongst us you
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know it's it's it was it was very
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difficult emotionally
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and we still live through this and day
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after day and because of that I think
00:19:05
right now we cannot give up we just
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cannot give up we every time we remember
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how many people lost their lives and we
00:19:12
think was it worth doing that so what we
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have to be different you know um I think
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one thing which every Ukrainian should
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promise to to himself to his it cannot
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be the way how it was for months ago and
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I I have to do whatever I can do at my
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place it's my obligation it's not
00:19:33
obligation or responsibility of the
00:19:35
president of the country it's not
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responsibility of prime minister or the
00:19:38
cabinet of ministers it's responsibility
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of every single Ukrainian or citizen of
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Ukraine to do something to change this
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country otherwise it was not worth that
00:19:50
maybe one last thing uh what based on
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the experience of the past few months
00:19:55
what lessons in leadership do you think
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you have have learned that you have may
00:20:01
not have learned
00:20:04
before it's very interesting uh because
00:20:07
um during last three four months you
00:20:12
know people people were always looking
00:20:14
for some
00:20:16
leader but maybe because our opposition
00:20:18
leaders were a little bit
00:20:21
undecisive we saw other way of
00:20:23
leadership um this we saw this
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um opportunity and this possibility when
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every person can take a leading role so
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due to that due to self organization so
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many new interesting initiatives evolved
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and people were supporting them and uh
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people were engaging in different
00:20:46
initiatives and right now it's still
00:20:48
continues because we uh again we realize
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that it's not anymore a job only of the
00:20:54
government you know people people take
00:20:57
the initiative um just to give you an
00:21:00
example you know right now we need to
00:21:02
have a lot of new faces in in the in the
00:21:05
public service in public administration
00:21:07
we realized that we need a lot of new
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young people going there and changing
00:21:12
the system so we as a school got a
00:21:16
request you have to start some programs
00:21:18
in public administration something we
00:21:21
have not been thinking about a month ago
00:21:24
and right now you know when we say that
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we would like to start a free month
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modular program in one month you know it
00:21:31
looks a little bit unrealistic but at
00:21:33
the same time if not us then who that it
00:21:38
we just we have to to we have to respond
00:21:41
to the need and I think that's what
00:21:43
people learn learn to do and that's Al
00:21:46
that's one of the way of
00:21:48
leadership I think another another
00:21:51
understanding of leadership is that um
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it's it's about leadership but it's it's
00:21:57
about all as human beings I think that's
00:22:00
something what we really as ukrainians
00:22:02
started to realize I mean we started to
00:22:05
communicate before all these events
00:22:08
people were living in their small silos
00:22:10
you know business people communicating
00:22:12
with business people church with church
00:22:15
NOS with
00:22:16
NOS um you know according to Social
00:22:20
statuses all those um Silas were maybe
00:22:25
meeting but not talking too much and and
00:22:28
still people were perceived very much by
00:22:30
social position or or their professional
00:22:33
position I think what happened at maidan
00:22:36
people you did not really know who was
00:22:39
there and there were very rich people
00:22:41
there people who are on on on retire
00:22:45
retired already uh people who have their
00:22:49
companies or who don't have their
00:22:50
companies who do different professions
00:22:53
and you did not really care who they are
00:22:55
you were just grateful that they are
00:22:57
support all of that that you have same
00:23:00
values and people were talking to each
00:23:02
other about important things um no
00:23:06
matter which social or professional
00:23:08
status you have so we we we started to
00:23:10
notice each other as human beings first
00:23:13
of all not not according to um regali
00:23:18
which we have and I think that's I think
00:23:21
that's the major shift in in our society
00:23:23
as
00:23:26
Society great well thank you so much for
00:23:28
joining us we'll look forward to to
00:23:30
following what happens thank you very
00:23:32
much and thanks a lot I hope it will go
00:23:36
positive way thank you thank you
00:23:42
[Music]
