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Sarah thank you so much for joining us
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today you're welcome thank you for
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having me well I wanted to talk to you
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about uh Israel's Natural Gas gas uh
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situation and the and the tremendous
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find of of natural gas uh what impact do
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you think it's going to have on the
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overall geopolitical situation with
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Israel I just recently spoke in a panel
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where that was the question that was
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asked you know as the great discovery of
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gas in the Mediterranean something
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that's going to be something that's
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going to increase the tensions or could
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it be really a you know impetus for
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peace and for bringing countries
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together and sort of in the Israeli
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experience that at least um recent years
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we've sort of seen the ladder that we've
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seen the gas sort of be something that
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allows us to sort of move aside from
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traditional conflict related issues and
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sort of move into more positive areas um
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for example I was part of the legal team
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where we um we wrote a delimitation
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agreement our Mar to Define our Maritime
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borders with Cyprus the country that
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sits across from us and we were a little
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bit late in the game actually Egypt had
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already signed an agreement which went
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into force in 2004 Lebanon had signed a
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similar agreement in
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2007 and and in 2010 we were Fally able
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um to sign an agreement which entered
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into force in February
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2011 so now we're actually in the next
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stage in stage two which is entering
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into what's called a framework
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unitization agreement unitization from
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the word unit that there's a developing
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International practice um where you have
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if you have a transboundary reservoir
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the ideally to maximize both profits um
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to maximize from a technological point
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of view the best way to do it is that
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the both countries come together and
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then the private lienes will develop
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together so I would like to hope that
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definitely the discovery of gas will
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will lead to a positive direction for
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for not not just between Israel and
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Cypress but between all the players in
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the in the region so let let's focus on
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the on the Cypress issue can you
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describe what the main legal issues are
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regarding the Israeli cypriate gas are
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there any issues regarding the border of
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the two countries economic zones so in
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our case with Cyprus we're in a good
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situation because like I said in 201 our
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agreement on delimitation of what's
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called our exclusive economic zone which
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is the maritime zones that are usually
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under international law up to 200
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nautical miles but in the case of Israel
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and Cyprus we actually have less than
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200 nautical miles between the two
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countries we're talking about something
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like 180 nautical miles roughly
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depending on where you measure so we had
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to enter because of the overlapping
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areas we had to enter into a
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delimitation agreement now in that
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situation we already know where where
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Cypress is and where Israel is and that
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makes things a lot easier so now the
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next question is what happens when you
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have a reservoir that goes that sort of
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sits on both sides of that line and like
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I said unitization is the usual way that
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countries will handle that so we're in a
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good place with Cyprus in terms of
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knowing exactly where they are and we we
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are now if you have reservoirs and there
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on the Israeli side we've discovered
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quite a few reservoirs there are some
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very significant finds like the Tamar
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field and the Leviathan field which are
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entirely in are Israel's Maritime areas
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and once you have a defined line and
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those we know now for sure that those
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areas are nowhere near the cypriate
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border then we can go ahead and develop
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them um
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independently um when we're talking
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about areas that are on both sides then
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we have to work with our neighbors now
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we know that there's definitely one um
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transboundary Reservoir the Aphrodite
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field on Israel side it's the isai
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license sometimes it's called block 12
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we know of of one and that that is a
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estimated to be around um 7cf in terms
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of its potential um the cyat have
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already started exploratory Drilling and
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Israel is is to begin it was just
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reported in the paper in about another
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month or so exploratory drilling on its
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end we're also moving along to sort of
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finalize the framework unitization
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agreement now that agreement it's it's
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sort of a two level two-layered
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agreement that you have the framework
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agreement between the governments which
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set forth on the macro level the rules
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um that the lies sort of have to play by
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in order to develop the field and then
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the lenses will have to um abide by
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those rules and develop together
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hopefully um the
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transboundary uh Reservoir which will be
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to the benefit of both sides do you
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expect uh Israel and Cyprus to
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collaborate in developing infrastructure
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for the export of natural gas these are
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issues that are definitely on the table
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there's a number of issues and gas
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related um issues that are on the table
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including possibility of cypriate
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purchase of Israeli gas as well um
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Cyprus is in a sort of there's a number
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of issues sort of that are before um the
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cypriots beyond the political issues on
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on the island with you know the the tur
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Turkish the situation with with the
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North and then the occupation there um
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but there are a number of issues
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including that it Cypress finds itself
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right now in an energy crisis they had a
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major explosion in one of their power
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plants about a year ago last summer um
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and so they're really looking for
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different options and and the whole
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option of cooperation with Israel is
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quite appealing
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um they also you know with the greater
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picture of what's going on in Europe and
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and what's going on in Greece it's it's
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sort of you know there's always the fear
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that that could sort of bubble over
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because there's a linkage between
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cyprius and Greek banks that that could
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bubble over into Cypress so there's a
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real um you know desire to to sort of
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work forward positively and and address
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these issues um before something
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negative happens and I think that's a
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positive in terms of the the inter
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dyamics um for how sort of allowing for
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cooperation Paving Paving the way for
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cooperation between the actors that
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maybe something that you know issues
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that are less positive can in the end
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sort of lead to more a more positive um
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situation between us so under the
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agreement if Cyprus and Israel do
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collaborate on infrastructure do you
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think this is likely to take the form of
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a pipeline being developed for Europe or
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do you think it might be uh a liquefied
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natural gas plant being set up somewhere
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in Cyprus and if so where might that be
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located uh nothing's been decided for
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sure and definitely there are a number
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of options and you've mentioned two of
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them one is the option of the pipeline
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um one is the option of of you know
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plant of of to liquefy in Cyprus another
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option is maybe floating um liquefied
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you know to do that in the water of of
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liquefying glass in the water and a lot
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of that just has to do with you know
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what are the mark the markets that are
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available in the needs and also you
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can't ignore the sort of Greater
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political
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situation um laying down a pipeline
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under International maritime law um on
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the high seeds all all states have a
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right to lay pipelines and also in
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states different exclusive economic
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zones meaning the areas beyond the
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territorial Waters you also have a right
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to lay pipelines even if it's not your
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own exclusive economic zone um the one
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thing is that also under international
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law the coastal state if it's in their
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exclusive economic zone um could object
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to the path of the pipeline and this
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could lead to possible objections um
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given particularly turkey's ways in
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there and turkey has a very different um
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sort of non-traditional approach to
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delineation issues in the Mediterranean
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what's your view of turkey I mean do you
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does Israel feel that it should U
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involve itself in in in the in dealing
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with turkey or the Cyprus issue or does
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Israel take the view that this is
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primarily something that the Turkish and
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the uh separate government should
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resolve among themselves I mean
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certainly you know politics is a side of
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economics and we and this has always
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been something even in better times that
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we've made clear to to the Turkish
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government that Israel wants to advance
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its its um vital economic interest in
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the region and I think the same would go
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for Turkey um you know overall we would
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like to to see ideally it would be best
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if if all the different actors in the
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region were on board I mean that would
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include our neighbors to the South it
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would include our neighbors to the north
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and you know we could maximize this
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great find in the Mediterranean if
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everyone sort of worked together um and
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we're not going to weigh in on on
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cypriate domestic issues just like we
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wouldn't want them to weigh in on our
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our own issues
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I those are two separate things sure
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that makes a lot of sense uh let's look
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now at Lebanon I mean what's the status
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of the economic um Zone boundary between
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Israel and Lebanon so first of all like
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I said at the beginning Cypress and
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Lebanon um actually signed a an
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agreement in 2007 um to delineate their
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overlapping exclusive economic zones in
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the Mediterranean like Israel there's
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there there are not those if you had 400
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nautical miles then everyone would get
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their own 200 nautical mile Zone but we
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have a very extreme overlap um Cyprus
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has already ratified that agreement in
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order for an agreement usually to go
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into full force both sides need to
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ratify it um and with Egypt and with
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Israel our agreements have been fully
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ratified on both sides and deposit in
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the UN in in full force in the Lebanese
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case although they signed it in 2007
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which from a legal point of view once
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you already sign an agreement an
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international treaty you're bound by the
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terms of that treaty um Lebanon has not
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ratified that agreement Cyprus has so
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now you have a situation where they have
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a delimitation but they're still waiting
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for the Lebanese delimitation now in
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interestingly perhaps curiously um in
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2010 um Lebanon went ahead with a couple
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of unilateral moves at the UN now
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generally speaking if you look at the UN
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Convention of the law of the sea which
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is sort of the Bible of peacetime
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maritime law and get sets out all the
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rules of how to delineate the different
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marit time zones um the the relevant
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Provisions call for states to work
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together and try to reach an agreement
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that would be ideal or if they can't
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reach an agreement at least try to reach
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provisional Arrangements but certainly
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if there's some sort of disputed
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Maritime claims to talk to one another
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now in the case of Lebanon um Lebanon
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doesn't recognize Israel and so instead
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of sort of turning to Israel and
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discussing Maritime issues it went ahead
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to the UN in 2010 and and um deposited a
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series of unil Al positions um the first
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unilateral
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position set what Lebanon sees as its
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delimitation with Israel um sort of
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between Israel and Lebanon um the line
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that runs East West between it from
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Lebanese perspective I won't call it a
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border because under international law a
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border is something that is agreed by
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both States um it then went ahead and
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did a second unilateral position which
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is that it took the line that it agreed
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with Cypress in 2007 and amended it and
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I say amended in quotations because to
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amend it you usually need both sides and
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under the terms of their agreement you
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would need both sides to amend but you
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pulled the line further south um
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entering into what Israel believes is
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its exclusive economic zone also
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entering into the area that actually
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Cypress and Israel divided um with
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another so you have a situation um of
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overlapping Maritime claims now under
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international law usually when you're
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getting to the point of trying to
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delimit the maritime Zone you usually
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start out with the
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mathematical um approach of trying to
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find out what the median Line is now
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clearly this is not one single number
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it's it's a complicated process where
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you pick points on the coast and there
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are there are definitely ways accepted
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practice in C cartography under law of
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how you pick those points in the in the
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on the coast you pick points and you try
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to reach a median line um that said if
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you were to go to International court if
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you were go to
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arbitration um the you know the judge or
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the the AR the the mediator might look
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at some other special circumstances to
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see if anything else should weigh in
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when delineating the maritime border now
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these special circumstances can be a
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number of thing there's no Clos list it
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could be um was there a historic
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agreement between the parties in the
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maritime Arena
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it could be something like you know is
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there a very odd Geographic situation
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that you might have all sorts of rock
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rock formations and how does that weigh
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in does the mathematical approach
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perhaps create total disproportionality
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in terms of who's getting what again a
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number of things now one of the things
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we've seen in case law that that also
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weighs in um was you know when the
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question of particularly in gas practice
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and oil practice you know would that
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influence the maritime Del delineation
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we actually have case law that says no
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that wouldn't influence the situation
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unless there was either explicit or
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tacit
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acquiescence now in the case of Lebanon
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in their unilateral positions from
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2010 um we see those positions as being
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problematic Israel we see those position
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being problematic um from both a legal
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and cartographic point of view in terms
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of how we see the proper way of
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delineating the maritime what should be
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the border between Israel and Lebanon
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and so in order to prevent tacid
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acquiescence so that if we would ever
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get to a case where we were trying to
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resolve our situation we felt it was
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important in July in July
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2011 um to submit our pursuing to a
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government decision our version of what
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we think the maritime delimitation
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should be between Israel and Lebanon and
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this created a sort of a triangle of a
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disputed area we'll say that Israel this
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is not unique and this actually doesn't
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have to do with with the politics of the
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Middle East there are loads of areas
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throughout the world um where there are
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ongoing and sometimes quite
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controversial Maritime disputes I me if
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you take a look in the I you're you're
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an economic journalist I'm sure you know
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about all the disputes going on between
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China and Japan this the the the the
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South China Sea area um Korea ways in
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there too there's a lot of many many
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Maritime disputes if you go into the
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website of the international court of
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justice see just how many Maritime
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border disputes they've they've been
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involved in you go in the permanent
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Court of arbitration they've been
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involved in a number the um there was a
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there's a chamber that was set up under
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the UN Convention of the law of the sea
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they just had their for first ruling
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between Myanmar and Bangladesh this is
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not something unique um that said what
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is somewhat unusual is that you're
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talking about particularly if you look
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at lebanes submissions you know it's
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difficult for them to even say the word
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Israel they usually um will not even say
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Israel by name and so the question is
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how we're going to get to a resolution
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in this area in our submission in
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Israel's submission to the UN in 2011
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where we gave our own version of where
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we see the maritime border with Lebanon
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we did emphasize however in our letter
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to the Secretary General that we are
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interested um in resolving this dispute
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with all and and resolving all these
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issues with our neighbors and this is
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something that's very important we
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really took the language of the UN
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Convention of the law of the sea and we
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tried to mirror the language about
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trying to be positive and open to
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dialogue that is if the dialogue is a
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professional dialogue that is based on
00:16:44
legal principles an accepted cardgraphic
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practice and doesn't tries to stay away
00:16:49
from politics there a way to solve these
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problems in a purely technical kind of
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way and and we would hope I think again
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getting back to your question that that
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would really lead us to a win-win
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situation I mean there's a lot to be
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gained on the Lebanese side there's a
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lot to be gained on on the Israeli side
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and so long and we saw this in our
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experience with Cypress so long as you
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have ambiguity you know even about just
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a meter of where the border is supposed
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to be investors won't come investors
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will come when they know that they can
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get you know definite coordinates of
00:17:21
where where each site is and and I think
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that the Lebanese government knows that
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as well uh let's turn on to Egypt
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uh is the Israeli government getting
00:17:31
involved in the dispute between and the
00:17:34
government of Egypt or is the official
00:17:36
attitude that this is a commercial
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dispute I I would say on that issue um
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the latter that that particular issue um
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is a private commercial um matter it's
00:17:47
being handled in private in private
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channels it's it's a classic you know
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contract's issue of uh you know material
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breach of contract and and it's being
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handled and in the way that any sort of
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breach of contract would be handled and
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does the Israeli government regard the
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discontinuation of natural gas supplies
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from Egypt as a diplomatic issue or and
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a test of the new Egyptian government's
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attitude towards the Egypt Israel priest
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treaty and Egypt's commitment to it I me
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I think that's going a bit far again I
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think that this is a commercial issue
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and it's and it's being handled between
00:18:23
commercial actors there I think to tie
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it in with the peace treaty is is a
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little bit sort of getting mixing apples
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and oranges it's a stretch it's a
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stretch I mean for for us it is very
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important and and ha you know luckily
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thus far the Egyptian government has
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also said you know emphasized the
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importance of of maintaining um the
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peace treaty between Israel and Egypt
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this has been something that's been a
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wonderful thing um and so and we hope to
00:18:53
to maintain that and
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so and you and you know who knows maybe
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we'll have the opportunity for
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cooperation on on our you know in the
00:19:04
maritime Arena maybe we'll you we've
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been surprised they always said you know
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in biblical you know literature that we
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live in the land of milk and honey and
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we're always asking where's the milk
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where's the honey and here we've
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discovered all of a sudden you know
00:19:17
everyone's kind of shocked by that and
00:19:19
so again you know talked about the
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northern front maybe also on the
00:19:24
southern front this could be something
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that could be positive well uh standing
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now to the the Palestinian Authority
00:19:30
what's uh Israel's policy towards the
00:19:32
gas Fields found in a near the area of
00:19:35
the economic zone of the Palestinian
00:19:36
Authority there's the Mediterranean
00:19:39
coast of the Gaza Strip MH well and
00:19:42
first of all there's some ambiguity in
00:19:44
terms of the the legal status of the
00:19:46
maritime areas off the coast of Gaza
00:19:48
right now because the so far Hamas
00:19:52
controls strip it's Hamas that controls
00:19:55
it and not the Palestinian Authority now
00:19:57
in the in late '90s actually
00:19:59
um rights were granted um to to British
00:20:02
company British gas um in in in gas
00:20:06
Fields off the coast of the Gaza Strip
00:20:09
um actually from an Israeli point of
00:20:11
view we would like to see the
00:20:13
development of those gas Fields so long
00:20:15
as the proceeds don't fall into Kamas
00:20:18
hands we don't you know have any
00:20:20
objections to those rights being
00:20:22
exercised um and then you know as As you
00:20:25
move further north then there are there
00:20:27
there are fields that are being being
00:20:28
developed on the Israeli side that are
00:20:30
on on our South border but not across
00:20:33
from the Gaza Strip um there are other
00:20:36
issues that are involved in terms of
00:20:38
Maritime areas of the Gaza Strip but
00:20:39
that more has to do with not peacetime
00:20:41
law um Peace time maritime law but
00:20:44
rather laws of armed conflict and the
00:20:45
security situation and unfortunately in
00:20:48
recent years we've seen um the maritime
00:20:51
Arena which is really used for some 90
00:20:54
plus per of all all Transportation trade
00:20:57
in the world at some Point goes through
00:20:59
the sea and we've seen you know
00:21:01
otherwise innocent commercial shipping
00:21:04
being taken advantage of um to smuggle
00:21:06
in um weapons in into our areas into
00:21:10
terrorist groups um that are out for the
00:21:12
destruction of Israel and we saw um
00:21:15
about a year ago uh one ship Victoria
00:21:18
with 50 tons of weapons being smuggled
00:21:20
on it if you would have looked at the
00:21:22
crates I actually I saw the crates you
00:21:24
had um things like lentils and cotton on
00:21:28
the crat and and and the crew had no
00:21:30
idea but you know various actors figured
00:21:33
out a way to smuggle in quite Advanced
00:21:35
you know Atlanta sea ter weaponry and
00:21:38
you have other situ we had one boat that
00:21:40
was caught with 500 tons of Weaponry
00:21:42
just to give you an idea of what we're
00:21:44
talking about 500 tons of weap that's
00:21:45
the entire amount of weapons that were
00:21:47
used in the second Lebanon war against
00:21:49
Israel so in that area I mean we have a
00:21:52
sort of
00:21:53
sensitive security situation but that's
00:21:56
aside from peacetime issues now
00:21:58
certainly if we are able to sit down
00:22:01
negotiate move towards peace and you
00:22:03
know one of the core issues that needs
00:22:06
to be resolved between Israel and
00:22:07
Palestinians is borders and when we're
00:22:09
talking about borders we're not just
00:22:10
talking about land borders we're talking
00:22:11
about sea borders as well so do you see
00:22:14
any Prospect of cooperation between
00:22:16
Israel and the Palestinian Authority or
00:22:18
even Hamas in developing these fields I
00:22:22
mean again in terms of the there there's
00:22:25
a potential there Hamas is not it's a
00:22:28
ter terrorist entity it's just like
00:22:30
under us law and under EU law in Israel
00:22:33
it's an organization that does not
00:22:35
recognize Israel is still committed to a
00:22:38
violent approach does not accept any of
00:22:40
the existing um agreements so in terms
00:22:43
of and at least in the current
00:22:45
configuration unless Hamas would
00:22:47
suddenly change their their Charter
00:22:49
their political platform that's not
00:22:51
really uh a reality in terms of of
00:22:55
cooperation with the Palestinians or
00:22:57
with other you know countries that are
00:22:59
being given rights again we have to see
00:23:01
um what will happen sort of on the
00:23:02
political side in terms of potential for
00:23:04
cooperation but I think that overall
00:23:07
Israel be open to the possibility for
00:23:10
cooperation with the with moderate um
00:23:13
Palestinian actors great just a couple
00:23:17
of more questions Uh Russian President
00:23:21
Putin visited Israel I think in June
00:23:25
this year uh was this largely or in part
00:23:28
Focus on the potential Russian
00:23:30
involvement in the development of the
00:23:32
Israeli gas Fields I I I don't know what
00:23:36
the content of of the talks where I know
00:23:39
that there's a number of actors in the
00:23:40
area that are looking into you know we
00:23:43
discovered large amounts of gas and sort
00:23:44
of the the potential and the potential
00:23:47
for investment in the area um but
00:23:50
there's nothing sort of there that was
00:23:52
set there's been a certain amount of
00:23:54
speculation as you know that gazprom
00:23:56
might be one of the leading players
00:23:58
among the foreign energy companies to
00:24:01
help Israel develop the uh natural gas
00:24:04
Fields is that likely or I I can't
00:24:07
really say in terms of the way and on
00:24:09
the likelihood there there are a number
00:24:11
of of actors that are certainly
00:24:13
interested as thus far the major actor
00:24:16
in The Maritime arena in Israel has been
00:24:18
actually a US company Noble energy um
00:24:21
that has both interests both on the
00:24:22
Israel side on the cypret side as well
00:24:24
actually the the agreement that we're
00:24:26
I'm negotiating right now with the
00:24:27
unitization actually we see Noble on on
00:24:29
the other side um we have different
00:24:31
companies including a sort of a a group
00:24:34
of different countries including one has
00:24:35
a Norwegian interests and stuff and so
00:24:37
we've seen different different countries
00:24:40
I can a number of countries not only
00:24:42
Russia expressing interest and sort of
00:24:45
looking into what exactly uh are there
00:24:48
opportunities for them um I can't really
00:24:51
say what will be in the future you know
00:24:53
one of the other things we're working on
00:24:54
the domestic side is also sort of
00:24:56
developing our own policies and how we
00:24:58
see our important export policies this
00:25:01
whole area and I can say this on the
00:25:03
legal side for sure you know was
00:25:05
something that we we didn't know that
00:25:06
the potential was out there and so you
00:25:09
know we're still playing a bit of
00:25:11
catchup in terms of getting everything
00:25:13
in order including both of our domestic
00:25:15
policies and and our
00:25:17
legislation um just because this came as
00:25:20
a bit of a surprise in terms of the the
00:25:22
potential that was out there uh but you
00:25:25
know there are a number of possibilities
00:25:29
a number of actors that might play a
00:25:31
larger or smaller role in our area as we
00:25:34
move along
00:25:38
[Music]
