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welcome lady Barbara judge thank you
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very much for joining us today at
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knowledge at Wharton is fantastic that
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you've taken the time out to speak to us
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about what's going on in the nuclear
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energy industry today and what we need
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to be thinking about globally about how
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to move the industry forward so I
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suppose my first question to you would
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be what is happening in the industry
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today is there really a nuclear
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Renaissance is it really in vogue as a
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lot of people are saying absolutely
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today we face three problems with
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respect to energy one is energy security
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do we have enough energy one is energy
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independence weirdest energy come from
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and the third is climate change are we
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going to leave a world for our
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grandchildren that's fit to live in so
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what do you have to do to do that you
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have to look at the kinds of energy that
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are available in order to deal with all
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those issues energy security energy
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independence climate change and nuclear
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is the one kind of energy that deals
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with everything because you know nuclear
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energy does not emit carbon and once you
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have that nuclear energy plant in your
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country yes it's expensive but you have
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it you have energy security you have
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enough and you have energy independence
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it's in your senior country so the
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answer is it's not rocket science
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today we know that we have to look at
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all the kinds of energy that are
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available and nuclear is the first one
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and the evidence of the Renaissance is
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just look the United States is thinking
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about now and is giving guarantees out
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for four to six new plants the UK is
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starting a new regime in order to
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encourage nuclear energy the French have
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been doing nuclear for years 80% of
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their energy delivered by 659 nuclear
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power plants the Turks Abu Dhabi Jordan
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the Russians the Chinese the Indians the
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Egyptians I could go on and on of all
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the countries around the world that are
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thinking about starting and in different
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phases of their own nuclear Renaissance
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interesting and but what would you say
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how nuclear energy fits in with
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renewable energies is it is it going to
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be the predominant energy source or did
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will it sit alongside let's say solar
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and wind and the other renewable energy
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sources that get a lot of press today
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well I certainly do agree that we're do
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of letter to get
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a lot of press frankly from my point of
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view although they're very worthy and we
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ought to keep dealing and investing
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within renewables they're not going to
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solve the problem at the very best
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people tell me it's going to be ten
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percent of the energy and you have to
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remember the Sun doesn't always shine
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and the wind doesn't always blow and
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even here in the UK in Scotland where
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there's lots of wind sometimes you're
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going to have a cold dark still night
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and when you turn on the lights they
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won't go on because the thing about
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renewable energy is its top-up energy it
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only works when the source of energy
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works nuclear energy is base load energy
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once you build the plant
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the energy goes and goes and goes so
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when you turn on the light whether the
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wind is blowing or the sun is shining it
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turns on and the base load nature of
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nuclear is what really gives it its
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place at the table in today's energy
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dilemma really mmm you know as we've
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seen in the past nuclear has been a very
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emotional topic at various levels from
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very many types of people would have
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been sort of the challenges of getting
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nuclear accepted or what is to get the
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industry going well originally and
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that's about 50 or 60 years ago right
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here in England as well as in the United
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States we've started producing energy in
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nuclear power plants and we thought it
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was fantastic it was going to be energy
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that was too cheap to meter and it was
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going along we were building power
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plants many countries in the world were
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building power plants which is why there
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are so many today and then all of a
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sudden two things happened first well
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the first thing I ever was Chernobyl
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Chernobyl happened and as you know or
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maybe you don't but the Chernobyl
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reactor was an old technology and
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accident waiting to happen
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and not only that it didn't have what's
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called a reactor Pressure Vessel at the
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top nothing no containment vessels so if
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there was a problem inside and there was
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nothing on the top everything's flirted
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outside and then the Russians didn't
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tell anyone for a while so by the time
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they've told anyone there was a lot of
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problem the second was Three Mile Island
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now three-round in the US as you may
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remember although you might be too young
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Three Mile Island was wouldn't nearly
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have had the press except six weeks
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before there was a movie called the
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China Syndrome with Beautiful Jane Fonda
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beautiful Jane Fonda very well well
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regarded movie
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a big a big explosion in nuclear power
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plant so when six weeks later there was
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a problem at Three Mile Island although
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there was a containment vessel
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everything happened inside the reactor
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when there was a problem things closed
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down Three Mile Island was not a failure
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it was a success nobody died nobody was
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even hurt because of a movie everything
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was magnified so Chernobyl and Three
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Mile Island together plus the fact that
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the price of oil went down effectively
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killed nuclear for all these many years
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but today today the price of oil is get
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up and volatile and we have the climate
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change problem which is so much on the
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agenda which is what's bringing nuclear
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back on the agenda right it has
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certainly raised the awareness again
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hasn't it and I'm just also thinking
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there were a lot of people who are
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looking at nuclear energy also sight
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though that they say that as nuclear
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energy is uh NECA nama chol particularly
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for let's say the new builds building
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new reactors etc what's going on with
00:05:43
that well how do you respond to a
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critics that say it is expensive there
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is no question that building a nuclear
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power plant is a big infrastructure
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project and it costs a lot of money and
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frankly it's costing more money than
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people thought it was going to but
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that's because we haven't built one in
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such a long time we all believe that
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after they build the first in the second
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and the third and the fourth it will get
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less expensive just because we know how
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to do it better but frankly the other
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point is once you put that money in a
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big power plant the energy that comes
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out is relatively low-cost energy and
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it's a stable price so people can make
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their plans
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it doesn't gyrate like oil and frankly
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people tell me that nuclear energy is
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cost effective at about fifty dollars a
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barrel now frankly $50 a barrel is the
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price of all we haven't seen except for
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just a few minutes ago in the recession
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for a long time and nobody believes that
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oil will be about $50 a barrel for any
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sustained period so funnily enough
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nuclear may become a low-cost
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alternative one other point renewables
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are expensive they are not inexpensive
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we are spending millions and millions of
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pounds to try to prove the technology of
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renewables whereas the technology of
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nuclear is proven so we don't have all
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those research
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development costs that are must be
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capitalized into the price of renewables
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so going from whether it's economical or
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an economical
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what did you say sort of the issue is
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around policymaking though that also
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drives the industry well there are a lot
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of issues around the policy of nuclear
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you're right the price is one of them
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it's expensive it's expensive compared
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to fossil fuels but frankly we can't
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have fossil fuels for the rest of our
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life or we're going to kill the
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atmosphere there are other issues
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there's a political issue you have to
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have a country that agrees to put
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nuclear on the agenda and then it's not
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a political issue so if the Labour
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government thinks it's ok today we can't
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have the Conservative government in a
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different position tomorrow if they are
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there tomorrow because nobody will
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invest today if they don't think it's
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going to be there tomorrow so we have to
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remove it from politics the other issue
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is planning where are you going to put
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this nobody wants nuclear power plant in
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their backyard or so they say in actual
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fact that's wrong people who have
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nuclear power plants in their backyard
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love them the people in dune ray there's
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a you know up in the top of Scotland
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there's a big power plant which we are
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decommissioning at the moment those
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people are panicked that we're going to
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decommission them out of life there'll
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be no jobs no schools no culture big
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infrastructure products projects bring
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big money they bring me infrastructure
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money and they bring benefits to the
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community so in actual fact all the
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places that had power plants in the UK
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are the ones that want them again but
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planning is an issue the next one is
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price you already discuss that people
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there's a skill shortage there's no
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question people haven't been doing
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nuclear building nuclear power plants
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for years you just said if they haven't
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been running them all the people that
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know what they're doing they all have
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gray hair I'm always amazed when I just
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beaches of elephant yeah the fact is he
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used to be when I was young at pet that
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being a nuclear physicist was the
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coolest thing to be it was really sexy
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that was like rocket science today if we
00:08:54
graduate engineers we've got people at
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Wharton tell me the dream team is an
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engineering undergraduate degree and
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then an MBA and they know what we do we
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take these engineers only make them
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financial engineers well frankly we need
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them back on the power plants building
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designing
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being real engineers in the real economy
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but at the moment we have to find a
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whole new generation that believes
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nuclear is sexy engineering a sexy
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science is sexy so that's another issue
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which is the people issue how can that
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be addressed well we are trying to
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address it here in the UK I'm sure we're
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doing it in America too but in the UK we
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have a National Skills Academy for
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nuclear which we've established we have
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chairs in Manchester University in
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Imperial College various places around
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our country are seeing the need to train
00:09:42
nuclear engineers and are doing it we
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have to because we have to train the
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engineers to run them and the engineers
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to build them
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I also think would be great for women
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great you know you had mentioned earlier
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about some of the countries that are
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exploring nuclear energy and making some
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headway and introducing it in their
00:09:59
countries Middle East and intrigued
00:10:01
about what your thoughts are about why
00:10:03
nuclear energy and in the Middle East
00:10:05
the Middle East is a wonderful story
00:10:07
actually I will say that it about three
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years ago I gave a speech in Qatar and I
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said I thought that the GCC countries is
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a perfect place to build nuclear because
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they didn't have the problems of
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politics you know there's a strong
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central government the Sheikh says we'll
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have one here and we'll have one here
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the price well you know until recently
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they had a lot of money in the Middle
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East this is this joy the the people you
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know they they could build things they
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build schools the planning as I said you
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can have one here and one here so what
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happened well the people in Qatar said
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lady judges crazy there will never be a
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nuclear power plant in the GCC countries
00:10:43
not nine months later I was in Abu Dhabi
00:10:46
and in Abu Dhabi they were deciding very
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very enlightened government and although
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they have a lot of oil soon enough it
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would get run out and second of all they
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wanted to have a diversified source of
00:10:58
energy so they're building mon-star City
00:11:00
which is a renewable city they are
00:11:03
looking at other energy sources and
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they're having a big push on nuclear
00:11:07
they've hired some very good people
00:11:09
they're doing everything right they
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signed up to all the international
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conventions and the ruler is saying
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right we can afford to build the
00:11:17
state-of-the-art nuclear power we can
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afford to build the state-of-the-art
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technical universities in order to
00:11:22
address the problem
00:11:23
you and I have been talking about so Abu
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Dhabi says they're going to have the
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first power plant to open by 2017 2017
00:11:29
okay fantastic interesting okay well
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good and then looking sort of at you
00:11:36
lady barber judge and looking at why the
00:11:40
nuclear sector you joined the UK Atomic
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Energy Authority in 2002 as a director
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if I'm correct in a few years later you
00:11:50
were appointed chairman but that was
00:11:51
quite a departure for you you had been a
00:11:54
lawyer you made a name for yourself in
00:11:56
the banking sector so what attracted you
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to to this sector or to that company in
00:12:00
particular well the truth is you know
00:12:03
I've been an SEC Commissioner in the 80s
00:12:05
so I liked working for the government
00:12:07
and at that moment in my life I'd had
00:12:10
two businesses sold prematurely one the
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venture capitalists sold and second was
00:12:15
taken over and essentially a hostile
00:12:17
takeover and I thought what am I going
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to do I want to work to him 86 like my
00:12:21
mother and so I thought you know I'd
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like to go back to the government I
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really enjoyed it when I worked in the
00:12:26
American government and I called a
00:12:28
headhunter and I said do you have
00:12:30
anything in the government and the
00:12:31
headhunter said well Barbara we do have
00:12:33
one job at the moment which is a seat on
00:12:36
the board of the Atomic Energy Authority
00:12:37
and I said that is not for me I didn't
00:12:40
do science and the man said charming man
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he said oh that's all right what they
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want is a businessperson who can run the
00:12:46
Audit Committee and you could do that so
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you know you know how you get the jobs
00:12:50
that you're really not looking for I
00:12:52
went to the interview and they said now
00:12:55
why do you want this job and I said well
00:12:57
I really don't I really just want to
00:13:00
work with the government and you're
00:13:01
what's going but I have strong academic
00:13:04
credentials and I'm a lawyer and lawyers
00:13:07
learn things and if you'd give me this
00:13:09
job I promise you that I will learn it
00:13:11
so well that when I find the job in the
00:13:13
government that I really want I hope you
00:13:15
people will be my references and do you
00:13:17
know they gave it to me and not only
00:13:19
that a couple years later I found
00:13:21
another job of the government I wanted
00:13:22
they were my references I got that job I
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did it for a while yeah that's great
00:13:26
that's interesting now just to wrap up
00:13:29
the this fascinating conversation in
00:13:31
fact I'd like to sort of explore about
00:13:32
what lies ahead for 2010 in your view as
00:13:35
chairman of the
00:13:37
UK the Atomic Energy Authority in fact
00:13:40
what do you think are going to be the
00:13:42
main issues and the policy priorities
00:13:45
for the the nuclear energy industry as a
00:13:49
whole globally in 2010 well you've put
00:13:51
up you put your hands on a number of
00:13:53
them first of all the economics we are
00:13:54
going to have to get to a position where
00:13:56
you can build a nuclear power plant with
00:13:57
certainty as to the cost and certainty
00:14:00
as to the time it will take because the
00:14:02
two that are being built now in the West
00:14:04
are taking more time than people thought
00:14:06
and are costing more but we will the Abu
00:14:09
Dhabi proposition will turn really will
00:14:13
work and 2017 will come as you know the
00:14:16
Chinese are building them now the
00:14:18
Indians will be building them we'll get
00:14:20
better at it here in the UK we need to
00:14:23
set a framework so that investors will
00:14:25
come in and in fact do these big
00:14:28
infrastructure projects that we were
00:14:29
talking about the star sector coming in
00:14:31
that's the way we've set it up here we
00:14:33
say what the government is not building
00:14:35
at this moment the government is not
00:14:37
going to build these power plants the
00:14:39
private sector will build them but we'll
00:14:40
do a framework so that will help the
00:14:42
planning problems will here help the
00:14:44
political problems will set out places
00:14:47
where we believe nuclear is appropriate
00:14:49
and we'll get in put in place everything
00:14:52
they need to make it an economic
00:14:53
proposition interesting fantastic well
00:14:56
thank you very much it's been a pleasure
00:14:57
speaking with you and thank you for your
00:14:59
time such a pleasure thank you very much
