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welcome to this very special event my name is Jeff Garrett I have the honor and privilege of being the dean of the
00:00:10
Wharton School and on behalf of the University of Pennsylvania I want to welcome everyone to this event um before
00:00:19
I make some introductory remarks it is the modern world so I want to remind everybody that turning every device
00:00:26
you've got onto silent or vibrate would be much appreciated I was in a I was in
00:00:34
quite a serious meeting the other day when somebody's George Thorogood and the
00:00:38
Destroyer ringtone bad to the bone came out and it really didn't sound very good so um no
00:00:46
ringtones would be greatly appreciated you're all here at relatively short notice because this is a very special
00:00:53
event our guest of honor today is President Paul kagami the president of Rwanda who
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widely acclaimed for his leadership in guiding rwanda's transformation following the end of the
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atrocities of the genocide in 1994 defying expectations about a small landlocked country in subsaharan Africa
00:01:20
Rwanda has emerged as one of the fastest growing economies in the world in fact in the current world Bank
00:01:29
lists with projections for the next several years Rwanda joins five other economies
00:01:38
in Africa in the world's 12 fastest growing economies think about that for a
00:01:43
second half of the fastest growing economies in the world today and into the short-term future are in subsaharan
00:01:53
Africa in fact since president kagami was elected to office in 2000 the average annual economic growth rate
00:02:03
in Rwanda has been nearly 8% if you think about the wonders of compound interest that means that real
00:02:13
per capita income in Rwanda has more than trebled in the past 15 years at least as
00:02:25
impressively when it comes to Rwanda growth is the fact it has been inclusive I think everyone today is worried about
00:02:35
how widely spread the gains from economic growth are in Rwanda it looks as if growth has
00:02:43
been incredibly widely spread the headline statistics again according to the World Bank are that Rwanda has moved
00:02:53
more than a million people out of poverty since president kagam took office infant more
00:03:21
[Music] [Music] of course Eric works for us too uh and he has been teaching with my friend and
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colleague Katherine Klein A Wharton class a global modular class in Rwanda for the past several
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years it's incredibly popular it's oversubscribed but more than 120 Wharton
00:04:22
students have experienced life in Rwanda and have talked with leaders at the very highest Lev level including as
00:04:30
I understand it twice having informal discussions with President kagami study abroad is always at minimum
00:04:42
I think mind expanding for our students but I know based on the interactions I've had that the experiences of our
00:04:51
students in Rwanda have been literally life changing as I said our students have had
00:04:59
the experience to interact with president kagame in Rwanda today we get the opportunity to interact with him here
00:05:09
today and I was just speaking with the president um who isn't going to deliver
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an address we're actually going to have a conversation with the president and I
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think it's a testament both to his abilities and to the regard with which he holds Katherine
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Klein that he's willing to have a conversation with her in which it's not all
00:05:35
scripted that'll make the stage conversation very interactive but as you'll see we have microphones in the
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room for all of you to interact with the president and we will segue from the onstage conversation to one with all of
00:05:53
you quite quickly um let me welcome them both the stage by saying one thing about two
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things about Katherine Klein the first thing about Katherine uh is that she is the vice dean of the Wharton social
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impact initiative the second thing to say about Katherine is that while she's passionate
00:06:20
about many things having to do with the social impact agenda of the school and the
00:06:27
university her passion is no greater than when it comes to Rwanda she's LED all of the Wharton Global modular
00:06:35
classes in Rwanda she's passionate about the country she's she's supportive of
00:06:41
all that it has achieved and all that it may achieve in the future and I know that that will be the subject of her
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conversation with President kagami so please join me in welcoming both Katherine kleene and president Paul
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kagama May of Rwanda to the stage now president kagami it is wonderful that have you here thank you for the
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honor of coming to Wharton and to Penn and thank you to uh everyone in the audience I have to say we weren't we we
00:07:17
really didn't know what size audience we would have and we thought we better
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prepare for a smaller audience and we realized very rapidly we were wrong and uh that this audience is Testament to
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how eager everyone is to learn from you to learn more about the story of Rwanda and to talk about the future of Rwanda
00:07:36
so thank you so much for being with us thank you very much um so let me get started um I I'd like to start with um
00:07:47
April 2014 uh the speech that you gave on the occasion of the uh 20th commemoration of the
00:07:54
genocide um you were in uh amaha Stadium a very serious emotional momentous time
00:08:03
20 years after the genocide and um you gave a little bit of a of a history lesson and a framing of of Rwanda at the
00:08:11
time and you said um at the end of the genocide quote everything was a priority and our people were completely
00:08:21
broken and you went on to describe four three fundamental choices that Rwandan made in rebuilding the country and and
00:08:31
I'd like you to to help us understand those those choices you said one we chose to stay together two we chose to
00:08:41
be accountable to ourselves three we chose to think big so particularly for those in the audience
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who may not know so much about Rwanda could you tell us what those choices mean what they meant and and how you
00:08:56
came to them thank thank you first of all I'm grateful for the invitation to come and
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address uh this gathering in this great institution I'm happy to be here and
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thank you for the many visits you have paid our country and many people in the audience now to the
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question the three points I raised in my speech at that time uh stemmed from indeed what we
00:09:33
understand to be our history and the complexity of of that history and I started
00:09:41
with being together it talks about Unity it was relating to the very fact of how the
00:09:55
country historically has has been divided and indeed the divisive politics bringing the
00:10:07
country to witness the tragedy we had in 1994 so therefore was trying to bring to
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the attention of everybody the importance of being together as a nation even if there will
00:10:28
be diversity in our society people will be different but at the end of the day we have to work toward the common cause
00:10:38
for the interest of the whole country so I was appealing to people to say we are
00:10:43
different we may think differently and but at the end of the day we have to bring our energies together to for the
00:10:51
common good of the country instead of breaking it apart as we have already experienced so we've learned lessons
00:10:58
from that it isn't the story we are told is also a life we have lived second is the
00:11:07
importance of accountability meaning for all we aspire to achieve in our lives as a
00:11:22
nation and therefore learning from history as well how can we not say you know in our sense of Freedom
00:11:33
people doing things differently and acting differently and having different views at the end of the day you won't
00:11:41
achieve this Unity or you won't achieve progress unless in the exercise of your freedoms
00:11:48
you are able to think about the interest of the other and not just thinking about
00:11:52
yourself therefore that's how it comes to a point where every one of us has to
00:12:00
be responsible and we have to account to each other as well as we hold ourselves
00:12:05
accountable so that even in with the best intentions people may have doing certain
00:12:13
things differently you don't end up hurting somebody else and this again originates from our own history
00:12:23
where division was the order of the day and people have been told to hate each other to the point
00:12:35
that people started seeing the other as different and not only different they should get rid of them so
00:12:47
therefore accountability was important and was lacking at the time so that's why I was talking about
00:12:55
accountability so that we we really bring a sense of responsibility in everyone the leaders and the
00:13:02
citizens and of course number three thinking big uh was to relate to saying first of all even with all the
00:13:13
problems you have faced in the tragedy we had 21 years ago seeing how we have come out of that
00:13:24
and where we are today we also give a sense that nothing is impossible if people set their minds
00:13:33
to doing something they want to do and that is good for them they will be able to achieve
00:13:42
it and and there's nothing possible to achieve so ifone can be where it is now
00:13:49
with that history with all kinds of challenges a small economy in the middle of Africa south southern Africa right
00:13:59
there in the middle and landlocked and you know almost short of everything including the fact that we we were now
00:14:09
building from a very low base in which we were put by the genocide in 1994 and lost 1
00:14:19
million people other Millions displaced imp pished and so on so you know if you think about it
00:14:27
like this it is easy for somebody to Despair and say well we can't get out of this this
00:14:35
is impossible to change so but if you start from the point that everything is possible and and and think
00:14:44
Beyond these problems and and really want to achieve something big you will be there and that's the experience we
00:14:51
have had in the last 2 years thank you um I'd like to ask you about reconciliation
00:15:00
um so in in many countries in the world clearly uh ethnic racial and religious differences are a source of ongoing
00:15:10
discrimination tension uh violence persecution and and I think we often look at those
00:15:16
differences and think this can never change this will be here we will be we and them forever and maybe even we will
00:15:26
be we in them and maybe you can bury it but it will reemerge this is The Human Condition uh in Rwanda um we see
00:15:36
astonishingly for foreigners who visited visited we see genocide AES and survivors and their families living and
00:15:44
working side by side uh in peace and a and a common refrain in Rwanda is when asked about identity I am Rwandan we are
00:15:54
all Rwandan so I'd like you to talk with us about about the extent of reconciliation in in
00:16:03
Rwanda if today and if RW if reconciliation is a process or a multi-layered phenomenon where is Rwanda today what is
00:16:14
this stage of or the depth of reconciliation in Rwanda as you understand it and perceive it how how
00:16:21
deep is this phenomenon uh where are we uh in the country and then what are the implications for how you
00:16:27
govern well that's a very deep and complex question but anyway as the situation is
00:16:39
um if um let me say it this way in in 2004 when you were commemorating you know remembering
00:16:57
genocide in April 7th there were two young people who survived one of them had been picked
00:17:07
from um the mass grave they had you know there was a mass grave of five, people you know caterpillars had come and just
00:17:20
put bodies there and covered them with soil and our troops arrived just moments after it had happened and picked people
00:17:29
from that M who are still breathing and one young person who was there you know showing you know scars of
00:17:38
that situation and so on after giving testimony and the pain and everything they
00:17:45
experienced so I I directly asked him I said how how do you how do you manage how do you really and especially this
00:17:56
was at a time when people had been involved in the genocide at different levels and had been in prison
00:18:05
for some time where released it was 2004 you said 2004 that was 10 years after and uh I said how how do you
00:18:15
manage especially when they had been talking about seeing people whom they think are responsible for the deaths of
00:18:25
their families and so on released from as which the government had done at the time and a very complicated
00:18:35
process and this young person told me says you know I'm sitting there at home
00:18:43
and watching people pass you know and some of those are those that have just been released
00:18:51
from uh prison by government and as a gesture and as a way of trying to Res of these differences and Reconciliation and
00:19:01
so on a complex complicated mix of reconciliation and Justice and he says uh I just managed to
00:19:12
live on and survive because the young man looked at me and says president and you are
00:19:22
leaders we we trust you we have faith in you and uh you tell us to do a number of things
00:19:31
to try and understand this and that you are doing all this in the best interest of all of us
00:19:37
so we have faith with you and that's how we survive this is what the young man told
00:19:43
me so that tells the whole story it's we are confronted with the situation here you have perpetrators you
00:19:53
have victims in hundreds of thousands not just a few cases you have to deal with
00:19:59
you do one thing the other side thinks you're not doing enough you're not even
00:20:03
being fair you do another thing the other side say thinks you're not being fair you're not doing enough and so you
00:20:10
are somewhere right in the mid caught up in the midd but you have to do something
00:20:14
you have you have you have to attempt you have to try and do something so this is what we've been trying to do
00:20:23
so we we we tell people he said it's in your hands there is isn't going to be a
00:20:30
solution that is going to come from elsewhere that we shall deliver to you it's only going to come from
00:20:38
within and it's not going to be easy but it's the only thing we have to do because if
00:20:47
we don't do it the situation we Face ahead will be even more complicated to the point that we have
00:20:55
lost 1 million and have a lot of suffering still going on that will be doubled or tripled if
00:21:04
you will if we don't uh really uh do the best we can to do that so but telling them that is not enough
00:21:15
you therefore have to design a number of things and ways to make sure that for example to some extent justices seem to
00:21:27
be done the other is the daily lives that have to be lived by providing Education
00:21:36
Health you know food security a sense of security that the other sense of security that
00:21:45
those who are there someone will not just come and take their lives again the way it
00:21:53
happen but you we have to design and we found found a way to say but you are part of
00:22:01
this ensuring your security isn't going to be achieved by somebody's doing it for you but you
00:22:10
participating in ensuring that you give somebody's security as well as somebody
00:22:15
else is expected to give you security and then as as I said deing with these social economic issues that
00:22:26
at the end of the day somebody needs food somebody needs education for their children they need health they need this
00:22:34
must be there otherwise everything else will be you know people won't understand what we
00:22:44
trying to do so really this is the the complex nature of the processes we have had to go through it takes time so but
00:22:53
I'm saying back to the very question you raised I I think we have turned the
00:23:02
corner we have built a foundation a very Firm Foundation but we have to build on
00:23:10
that so we are now in the phase of building on the foundation I think the foundation is there people understand
00:23:19
the reason to get along to give and take you know to understand that nothing will be Rosy
00:23:29
and people not to be satisfied all of them W but there would be a balance by which we we we can move forward and and
00:23:39
then get the big things that must be done great thank you um so building on that Foundation let me ask some
00:23:49
questions about some of the ways you have and continueed to build on that Foundation uh certainly another striking
00:23:58
achieve M uh for us who are a striking achievement of Rwanda and particularly striking for those of us who come from
00:24:06
abroad to visit Rwanda is the the extent of gender equality uh in Rwanda uh perhaps specifically in the parliament
00:24:15
so no country in the world has a larger percentage of women in the its Parliament than Rwanda does uh
00:24:22
substantially over 50% uh how has Rwanda achieved the gender equality it it has why has it
00:24:31
been important to do so and what lessons can um the rest of the world can we as Business Leaders as leaders and
00:24:40
governments around the world uh learn from rwanda's successes in this regard um there are may be a number of
00:24:50
things to learn from here which we have learned ourselves by trying things in fact but has helped
00:24:59
us in many ways we are not afraid of trying things that may work for us even for in many cases being in situations
00:25:13
where there is nothing else we can do other than trying uh so we try that but and it stems from the whole history
00:25:26
again from at least as far as I'm concerned The Liberation days U trying to change situation in in
00:25:37
our own country some of us I grew up as young from the time I was between 3 and four years
00:25:48
old I was a refugee I grew up I grew up in a refugee camp for close to 25 years uh in a neighboring country you
00:26:03
and I I I lost my father when I was 14 it's my mother who looked and we had six children I'm the last born of the
00:26:16
six children and it's a mother who looked after us all the way the time we grew
00:26:26
up now what sense does it make that and and I'm sure this is not just me I'm sure there
00:26:35
are many cases like that many other cases this just my example what sense does it make in a
00:26:45
society to discriminate against your mother your daughter your sister your aunt it
00:26:54
doesn't make sense at the same time you know Randa today 52% of our population are
00:27:04
women can you imagine getting 52% of the population out of the economy and and you think you're doing something
00:27:12
sensible I don't think so so there are issues of Rights here as well it's really an issue of even human
00:27:24
rights is so we understood it from the beginning that women as well as others have to be
00:27:35
involved in all at all levels and in all activities meant for the development of
00:27:42
our country so that's how we designed our you know policies and right from the
00:27:48
beginning that has been the approach built into the Constitution as well and even put it in the Constitution we have
00:27:56
to make sure that we don't take it like you know leave it to anybody to to say
00:28:01
well I to be left with a choice to do it or not to do it we thought it was important that we make it an obligation
00:28:10
and that's how we put it in the Constitution to make sure that women are given their rightful place in our
00:28:20
society in fact there are number of things we did I probably not to go into all this but for example even we had
00:28:28
very old laws uh that discriminated actually against women to the extent that women
00:28:35
could not for example inherit property so we have changed that law now our women can
00:28:42
inherit property as as men do and others so this was trying to really bring the kind of
00:28:50
sense into the balancing that we had to do so that's how and we encouraged now
00:28:56
we educated our women we have invested in making sure that the health issues are are given a
00:29:04
priority as well as when we have educated women and when we they are healthy and they are playing other roles
00:29:12
anyway as usual we have encouraged them to participate at all levels in decision
00:29:20
making processes so that they don't sit back and somebody else makes a decision
00:29:28
that affects all of us but and specifically affects women when they have not had a say that's how it came
00:29:35
that we encouraged it put it in the Constitution then encourag them to participate and they ended up now we
00:29:42
have 64% representation of women in Parliament we have about 42% in the Judiciary we have women Mayors we have
00:29:59
you know women ministers the constition tells us that we can't have less than
00:30:06
30% representation of women in the cabinet for example of ministers and so on and so forth so we
00:30:13
are seeing it happening and the benefits are real when women have participated in
00:30:21
decision making when they are in business when they are doing different things or first of
00:30:29
all that is to scare that it should be and uh they have different approaches they
00:30:39
bring on in the processes that were missing if we didn't have uh women uh participating
00:30:51
so I think it's beneficial as we have seen all around and maybe we through sustained GDP growth of
00:32:01
11.5% and accelerated reduction of poverty to less than 30% of the population I I will say for those who
00:32:08
have not experienced Rwanda the the specificity the the ambition of the goals and the specificity of the goals
00:32:14
and the the use of metrics is is very much something we see over and over again in Rwanda and um and if I can
00:32:23
highlight for a quick moment the uh the formula that is presented at the beginning of this document for for those
00:32:28
of us who are professors and theorists it's a beautifully simple and Incredibly
00:32:33
uh challenging formula and that is that is presented and it says rapid economic growth plus reduction of poverty to
00:32:43
under 30% equals better quality of life for all rwandans so I would like for you to at
00:32:53
least begin to discuss with us your how how you envision Rwanda achieving these goals continuing and Rapid economic
00:33:01
growth and and reduction of poverty and specifically reduction of poverty you as
00:33:08
you know members of the audience may not know of course um I believe the numbers
00:33:13
are something like 70% of the population are still uh employed in subsistence and
00:33:17
and live from their subsistence farming so small plots of land a real challenge as you think about growing the economy
00:33:24
of moving these people off of their their their plot of land so thinking big as Rwanda does yes how
00:33:34
will you achieve this goal over the coming decade we we we we we start by transforming what we have as we do other
00:33:46
things and maybe achieve what we didn't have for example we start with agriculture which employs the majority
00:33:56
of rwandans it has largely been subsistence agriculture so we are now modernizing
00:34:04
that agriculture making it more productive so that the very large population involved
00:34:10
in that gain more from it than has been the case before and that is already happening we've seen that in
00:34:20
fact in the comment area mentioned when we lifted 1 million people out of poverty it was just
00:34:31
between the Year 2006 to 2011 and in fact these gains came from the improvements we have seen in
00:34:45
agriculture uh better seed varieties available inputs better methods technology uh and therefore more productivity as
00:34:59
you have seen and and uh finding markets for the what is being produced both domestically and across
00:35:09
borders so this is this is one part so is what we have can we realize the full potential we looked at Coffee which is
00:35:20
produced by Rwanda one of the the best coffees you have in the world if not to the best
00:35:28
as we know it across the world make it more productive beneficial to citizens who had earlier on given up
00:35:37
actually on growing coffee because there wasn't much coming from it now they
00:35:42
involved in growing coffee and they add value they wash the coffee they produced
00:35:48
before we export it we are now beginning to roast our coffee and so on so farmers are
00:35:54
benefiting to that tea the same thing and so on anything that has been involving the biggest part of of
00:36:04
population we focused on it then beyond that we started focusing on other areas where again we started from a very Bas
00:36:14
but we know we have so we build uh and and revered our the institutions have created the
00:36:24
good governance thereof and and so started investing say in uh Financial Services you
00:36:39
ICT high-end tourism MH and so on so forth the these are things that have moved very fast and
00:36:48
grown very fast and and bringing a lot of benefits to the people and as well as to the country so this is
00:36:58
how we are managing it and we are finding that actually things are moving faster than we even had
00:37:05
expected uh but the the find creating an environment that is conducive to doing business we had to attend to
00:37:17
that uh Safety and Security for people and for Investments they make in the country all these things have added up
00:37:27
and helped us accelerate achieving the economic growth but not just impressive economic
00:37:36
growth that economic growth that is contributing to development that is inclusive because we have made sure that
00:37:44
Rand are involved in all these activities thank you uh let me let me ask I think one more question before
00:37:52
I'll uh we'll take a few questions from the audience um so as as you know well
00:37:59
um many many foreign journalists and observers are critical of limits on Free Speech in Rwanda and laws in Rwanda
00:38:07
prohibit prohibit divisionism uh divisionism is spreading ideas likely to incite conflict based on
00:38:15
ethnic Regional racial religious language or other divisive characteristics and there are also laws
00:38:21
in Rwanda that that prohibit defamation of the head of state or other public officials and so i' I'd like you to not
00:38:31
um to help us understand how you think about the the benefits and drawbacks of free speech and dissent for Rwanda um
00:38:41
you know what are the the benefits and drawbacks of free speech and descent uh in the country as a whole for example in
00:38:46
the press and social media um and if we have time I I'm mindful of the time also
00:38:51
in your own cabinet well I I think that are a lot of contradictions in what has been said in
00:39:03
this area about Rwanda uh and disregard of the real facts on the ground now let me say say
00:39:15
this I I use Twitter we know and for example somebody said something about me yes
00:39:28
and I answered back by clarifying what it was so went back and forth and actually this person happened to be a
00:39:35
journalist in the UK of course as we continued arguing this very journalist who wants
00:39:45
freedom of speech to be exercised started complaining about how I am pushing back so and they asked this Jour I said
00:39:55
look you have a you you you want people to express themselves and that's how you manage to
00:40:03
talk say things about me they were you did but at the same time in this freedom to of free speech you don't
00:40:12
want me to tell you my views are what I think myself so is is Free Speech going to be for you and not for
00:40:22
me because this and and this has been almost a constant throughout so what is it that prevents me a user of social
00:40:33
media giving My Views even as president I have views I'm not dumb I'm just so but as long as you can push back
00:40:46
and say what you want to say I should be able to say what I want to say absolutely now same thing it happens
00:40:55
even within our country I'm actually exchanging debating discussing with the
00:41:01
people on social media so how this comes that we don't allow freedom of speech in Rwanda doesn't show
00:41:13
in this that happens every day absolutely uh so now there's another thing um there
00:41:26
have been a lot of Service international service done by independent institutions gallop and all kinds of
00:41:34
things if you you look in the reports that have come up in the last 3 five years you see something
00:41:46
interesting they came and carried out surveys across thousands of people in Rwanda on their own we didn't even know
00:41:54
about it in the report they talk the the people saying that they are free to elect their leaders to
00:42:08
say whatever they want to say it was 86% right now but what is interesting and revealing of the point I'm talking
00:42:18
about is in that report if you read it carefully there is where they say somebody you can see the writer is
00:42:28
intends to bias the reader he says although Rwanda uh is no authoritarian you know this starts by
00:42:45
telling people it's you know the leadership is authoritarian right and then goes ahead to say people who said
00:42:53
they are free to express themselves to are 85 86% but you can see he starts by saying
00:43:04
no it's authoritarian sure right so he wants people first of all to read that the following findings they made
00:43:12
themselves should not should be disregarded what should be taken is what he has stated that this is an
00:43:19
authoritarian situation so I I I think Rwanda has has two sides to it there is what Randa is and has been and wants to
00:43:31
be yes there is another Wonder in the eyes of other people who want it to be or expect it to
00:43:41
be something else and they make that effect that's the situation you have to
00:43:47
deal with so your so your argument is that in fact there is substantial free speech and dissent yes there is and much
00:43:53
of it playing out in social media I'm sure you you have uh been there by the
00:43:58
way even on radios we have so many FM radios free and and you need to listen to what they saying in French in English
00:44:08
in Kenya Randa talking about the president they where they want we haven't shut these
00:44:14
radios they still operating nobody has been punished for it so it doesn't really add up to some of these things
00:44:26
being [Music]