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I'm Adam Grant here at knowledge at
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Wharton with two authors who specialize
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in a topic that matters a lot at work
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but we don't discuss enough humor we'll
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start with AJ Jacobs the author of four
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best-selling books all very funny all
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based on life as an experiment the
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know-it-all reading the encyclopedia for
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the entire thing start to finish then
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thinking about what would happen if I
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followed the literal word of the Bible
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in the year of living biblically then my
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life is an experiment actually
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Reinventing everything based on George
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Washington and most recently asking
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could I drop dead healthy how do I
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reinvent my body along with my mind and
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spirit AJ welcome thank you for having
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me how do you think about becoming funny
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at work what makes a leader
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humorist well as my co- interviewee will
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tell us that you know analyzing humor
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can be terribly unfunny but that said I
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will I will say that I think a lot of
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the humorous thinking that has parallels
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to the way we should be thinking in
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business it has a lot to do with
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creativity taking disparate ideas and
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mashing them together which I think is a
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way to get great businesses uh I I was
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trying to think of an example I didn't
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think of a great one but Chipotle you
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know they took fast food and healthy
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food and mashed it together and they got
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this super business so which is the same
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idea as humor taking two things uh
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you've got things like humor is hard you
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know you've got to come up with a
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hundred ideas before you get one or two
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that really work and I think that's a
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crucial lesson for entrepreneurs you
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know uh and there's I read him as you
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know I read the encyclopedia so there
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are dozens of examples of this you know
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Chester Carlson who invented the Xerox
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machine he pitched it to like 43
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companies before someone uh accepted it
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I was just listening to a radio show
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about E Cummings who uh who in one of
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his books he thanked he acknowledged all
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the Publishers the 15 Publishers who had
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rejected his manuscript before which
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seemed a little petty to me to be honest
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but I thought he was supposed to be such
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a joyful person uh but anyway that uh
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that's another lesson so taking ideas
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and and working hard and and there are
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plenty of other parallels well I'd love
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to pick up on those in a moment let's
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turn it over to Peter mcra who's our
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other author today with Joel Warner has
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written a book called The Humor code
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which will Deb fittingly on April 1st
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it's about a global search for what
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makes things funny across the world
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Peter talk to us a little bit about what
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makes leaders or business people funny
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from your perspective so this is clearly
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a difficult topic so I I definitely have
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had people tell me this is too too hard
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to study you should stick to easier
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subjects but yet as you think about it
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humor is this really important thing
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whether it be at home or at work and
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there seems to be some good evidence
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that funny leaders humorous leaders are
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going to be more successful at least
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within certain tasks so uh so take the
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CEO for example the CEO doesn't
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necessarily need to be humorous but
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there are certain roles that having a
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good sense of humor is going to be
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useful so for instance someone who has
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to deal with shareholders so how do you
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appease shareholders how do you present
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the good and bad news in a meeting in a
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way that not only is just aoid being
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mind-numbingly boring but also might
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ease the sting of a little bit of sort
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of unsteady news along the way or how
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leaders have to push forth change in
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organizations so this is maybe at the
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very top or a mid-level manager people
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are really reluctant to make change the
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losses out outweigh the gains and having
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a sense of humor being able to make fun
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joke about tease people's
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reluctance to move forward can be a
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really valuable skill and then I think
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some of it is is just an orientation
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this idea
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that business is
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competition and at times you're going
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need to
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critique your competition whether it be
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an advert usually in advertising and so
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having a sense of humor and having that
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kind of Orientation May open companies
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up to Innovative marketing
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Communications ones that can Pepsi
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taking on coke Audi taking on BMW and
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back and forth so these are a number of
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ways that the process of generating
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humor might actually be useful in the
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workplace I want to dig into that
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process in a little more depth now and
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let's turn the question to both of you
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what can we actually learn about how to
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become funny from the way that you wrote
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your books because in a way you've gone
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to some pretty extreme lengths to expose
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yourself to strange experiences that
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ultimately generate humor do leaders
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have to do that to actually live their
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life as an experiment to go to countries
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where people are not comfortable with
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the brand of humor that you're about to
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bring and start pitching it and see what
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happens or to do standup comedy as a
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professor wearing a sweater vest is is
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that the key to becoming funny well I
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wouldn't recommend like for instance
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when I uh live by the year U live by the
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Bible I had this huge beard like this
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topiary and people would avoid me on the
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streets so not necessarily a great way
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to go about business but I would say the
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idea of taking things to the extreme
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that sometimes can be very helpful in
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coming up with business ideas uh so for
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instance one of my first articles like
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10 years ago in this genre uh I had read
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Tom fredman's book about the World is
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Flat about Outsourcing and I loved the
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idea but I was sort of a solo
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practitioner a writer living at home I
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was like how can I do this myself so I
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outsourced my life I hired a team of
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people in Bangalore India to do
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everything for me so they answered my
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phone and they answered my email they
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argued with my wife for me did they take
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naps for
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you I wish they did did they did worry
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for me I had all these worries I said
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you worry about them and I felt a lot
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better but uh but anyway that's taking
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something and pushing it to the extreme
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I think is a great way to generate ideas
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now you don't want to necessarily uh you
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want to pull back from that extreme but
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as a way of brainstorming ideas take a
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phenomenon push it to the edge and see
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where it goes and then from that uh new
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ideas will Bloom Peter you're now back
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from the extreme yes is it worth it
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totally worth it yeah so we uh Joel and
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I went to Tanzania to investigate a
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laughter epidemic that allegedly
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happened in the 1960s who went to Japan
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to try to figure out these crazy game
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shows and we even spent time in the West
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Bank in um in a what many people
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consider a really dark place in a place
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that wouldn't be very funny and yet we
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found lots of hilarity in Palestine and
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one of the things that I think uh is a
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useful Insight when it comes to humor
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is that it it actually arises from
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potentially negative things uh there's a
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Mark Twain quote that I think is very
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nice he said that the secret source of
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humor is not Joy it's sorrow there is no
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humor in heaven because Heaven's this
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perfect place it's a wonderful place to
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be but there's just not many things to
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laugh at and so my tip is to look for
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the things that are wrong that are am
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miss what we call violations in the
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world and see sees on those seize on
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those
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moments and find a way to make them okay
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acceptable or safe and so there's this
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delicate dance and it's why humor is
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this this really appealing skill you got
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to find what's wrong a violation and
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make it okay make it benign so you have
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to have a safe space you have to create
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kind of a safe space you have to create
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a a culture in which it's sort of okay
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to fail because if it's not okay to fail
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then that's going to inhibit these risks
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how do you stay on that tight RPP
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without falling off so you you want to
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point out something that's wrong but yet
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make it acceptable you call these benign
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violations in the book how do you know
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when you're not falling off one side or
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the other that it's either too much of a
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violation or perhaps not enough I guess
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a lawsuit I guess that's sort of when
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you realize you've gone over the Ed but
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yeah it certainly is a tight rope uh uh
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but your whole book is about that the
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idea of of taking something offensive
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and something inoffensive sort of mixing
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them together and finding just that
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right and it is a skill it is a skill
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and and yeah humor in business I think
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can be very dangerous I mean just look
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at the office you know with Steve Carell
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and uh that is an example of a boss who
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really wants to be funny and it's just
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sad so don't try too hard for me it
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should be organic and it should just be
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um uh I for me using humor is is a good
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way to just come up with ideas like I
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don't I don't necessarily think of
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myself as a humorist even I just try to
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be creative and come up with ideas and
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and some of them just by their nature of
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being disjointed and un and unexpected
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and surprising that they're going to
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hopefully be funny but I don't go into
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it saying all right I am going to this
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is going to be
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hilarious I um I Echo what AJ says there
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are a few things that I think you can do
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to maximize your chance to be funny and
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minimize the potential impact so one is
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take aim at yourself so so the the
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target of the joke matters a lot and so
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wherever possible the the the humor
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should be inclusive right something that
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we can all laugh about together and as a
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manager making fun of yourself is a
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great way to to get things rolling and
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that's actually a trick that we learned
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in Los Angeles when we were hanging out
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with all these stand-ups when a stand-up
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comedian gets on stage he or he he or
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she excuse me usually makes fun of the
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thing that's just peculiar about thems
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so when I um when I got back on stage
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again at the end of the book to prove
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that we've learned something my first
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joke was I spend a lot of time with
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Comedians and I learned you need to get
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a laugh right away hence the sweater
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vest and so so wherever wherever
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possible keep it inclusive stay away
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from that list of things that your HR
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man manager will send you an email about
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and be quick to apologize I think that
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people are really willing to forgive if
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someone's attempt at comedy was
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heartfelt was meant to be positive but
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somehow failed I like to say this is
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what happens when a humor researcher
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tries to be
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funny yeah and I guess that's a risk
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that some of us are more willing to take
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than others
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yes now when when you think about humor
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one of the questions that comes up a lot
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has to do with gender sort of a hot
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button issue what do both the the data
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say as well as the experience say about
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how men and women are funny in different
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ways well I'll tell you I uh I
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interviewed Tina Fay uh for Esquire WR
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for Esquire sometimes and you might have
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to edit this
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part but I thought she had an excellent
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point she said what's the difference
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between men and women comedians she said
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uh that the male writers on the sitcom
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uh had a jar where they would pee they
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would they were too lazy to go to the
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bathroom and women would never do that
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but other than that there was not a big
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difference thought that was a good
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answer a little bit of a Dodge so I'm
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gonna take that and do a little Dodge
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but you as a scientist tell us what what
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is this what is the data on on men
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versus women yeah so I think what people
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like to argue is that men are funnier
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than women and if you ask them to make a
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case for it they'll point to
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professional comedy and I think that's a
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a felicious argument and that would be
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like saying that men are better at
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medicine just because there's more male
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doctors and no one really believes
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that the literature on regular everyday
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people outside this system that seems to
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prop men Up and Hold women back is that
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men and women are more alike than
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different in both their production and
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their appreciation of humor and actually
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for the humor code uh we ran a study
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with a couple of my classes where we
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entered them into joke competition so
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the students submitted jokes and they
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indicated whether they were male or
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female and then I read the jokes alowed
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in class and had all the students rate
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them on how funny they were but also how
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offensive they were and what we found
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was that men were slightly but not
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statistically significantly funnier than
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the
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women you couldn't make a case that the
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men were funnier than the women
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especially with the man reading the the
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male jokes exactly stepping the deck in
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the men's favor thank you for
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identifying that compound couldn't have
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wi so um but what was interesting was
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the offensiveness ratings there women
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won that is the men's jokes went too far
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so they they succeeded a little bit more
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but they also failed a lot more and so
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what you often see as a difference might
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just be a cultural difference in terms
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of people's willingness to express
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publicly these displays of Comedy but
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the literature really is very clear the
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ladies are just as funny as as the
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gentleman and in better taste apparently
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too usually excellent so another Dynamic
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that a lot of people think about when
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they try to take humor into the
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workplace is how do you direct it upward
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can you make fun of your boss and if so
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how that is a great question uh have you
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got your bonus yet that
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year let's assume the answer is yes then
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what do you
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[Laughter]
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do well you know I there is a long
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history of of Comedy speaking truth to
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power so if you think about the
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trickster The
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Joker um so we spent time in in the
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Amazon with Patch Adams probably the
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most famous clown today and uh he said
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that the The Joker was the only person
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who could tell the king he was an
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and I think that that can be
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true you see this often times with
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political satire and so on where where
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humor used to get attention and to sort
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of ease the critique
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and uh I think that that that takes some
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skill and it takes knowing that your
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boss is going to be a willing butt of a
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joke and I think also who the audience
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there who else might be laughing about
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that
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situation what I often encourage people
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to do is not to joke about their
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grievances to their boss um but rather
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to use humor to complain so I have a
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project in the humor research lab on
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humorous complaining and the great
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benefit of humorous
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complaining one problem with complaining
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to try to change someone else's behavior
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and using humor to do so is you might
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tell the person this is not really a
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problem because of humor's association
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with non-serious situations and so in
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terms of coping with bad situations
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humor seems to be very good in terms of
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drawing attention to the the problems in
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the world seems to be very good but if
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you want to write some wrong you might
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want to complain about it in a serious
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way well pick up then on the theme of
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speaking truth to power with humor AJ
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you once interviewed a man who lives his
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life by radical honesty where he just
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tells the truth all the time saying
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exactly what he thinks to everyone he
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meets and you experimented with this yes
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how does it work well as you say it's
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called radical honesty and the idea is
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that there's literally no filter between
00:15:49
your brain and your mouth so whatever is
00:15:51
on your mind comes out so this is a very
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dangerous way to live because he thinks
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like if you have a crush on your wife's
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sister you should tell your wife and
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tell her sister and I'm like really so I
00:16:03
did I tried this and wait a minute how
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about not having a crush on your wife's
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sister to begin with that is uh that's
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an excellent point uh but uh but he he I
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tried it and you know it was probably
00:16:16
the hardest month of my life harder than
00:16:18
living by the Bible harder than living
00:16:20
by the Bible because yeah you know we
00:16:22
lie all the time you don't you can't
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imagine I probably lied like eight times
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during this
00:16:27
interview uh but I will say so I just
00:16:30
very quickly the worst part was when we
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were in a uh restaurant with my wife and
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uh we ran into a friend of hers from
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college and the they said oh we should
00:16:39
all get together and have a have a play
00:16:41
date with our kids and I said what was
00:16:44
on my mind I said well you seem very
00:16:46
nice but I have enough friends already I
00:16:48
don't I don't really want to ever see
00:16:50
you again and it was just horrible like
00:16:52
I felt terrible my wife was stormed out
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so not recommend but I will say this uh
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and that is I believe in trans a a
00:17:02
sustainable radical honesty like I do
00:17:05
think it taught me to be more honest
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especially in a positive way for
00:17:10
instance like uh mentors you know we
00:17:13
don't often call them up and tell them
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how much we well maybe you because
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you've got like 8,000 uh mentees
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proteges because you know you help all
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these people but uh but most of us uh I
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I don't call my mentors enough and say
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thank you for all you've done you meant
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a lot to me uh and especially as a man
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you're not supposed to express that in
00:17:33
much emotion but this experiment taught
00:17:36
me how valuable that can be both to them
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and to me so I do believe in positive
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radical H honesty like if you have
00:17:43
something positive to say you should
00:17:45
just spill it out there don't don't hold
00:17:47
back as long as you don't have one of
00:17:49
those dangerous brains that would lead
00:17:51
you to want to say things that other
00:17:52
people don't want to hear that's right I
00:17:54
think that that's a great note to wrap
00:17:56
up on if you if you are uh if you're
00:17:58
thinking that having a crush on your
00:18:00
wife's sister is positive then yes that
00:18:03
is I'm talking about that's a fear in a
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in a business situation where someone
00:18:08
helped you out yes then you should say
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thank you that was that meant a lot to
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me well thanks to to both of you for
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joining us I think it's very rare to sit
00:18:16
down with one author let alone to who
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have the ability to both make me think
00:18:20
and make me laugh on the same page and I
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think it's it's really wonderful to have
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a chance to both learn about humor and
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experience it through the writing that
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you both do and can't to continue
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reading thank you you too thank you
00:18:38
[Music]
