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Our Guest today is Adam grunt a
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management professor at Wharton and
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we're going to talk to him about his new
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book Originals which is about how
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non-confirmed the world Adam welcome to
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knowledge at Wharton thank you so you
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often interview authors and the authors
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at Wharton Series so I'm going to start
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with a question that you usually ask
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them what inspired you to write this
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book I really want to turn the tables on
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you on this one
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but I think the the inspiration for
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writing this book was uh twofold one uh
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I worked as a manager for a while before
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I came into Academia and the one time I
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worked up the courage to speak up uh I
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was actually dragged by my boss's boss
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into the bathroom and uh I basically
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ended up being threatened that I would
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be fired if I ever spoke my mind again
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and I really wanted to know how could I
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have done that more effectively and then
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U more recently uh since my first book
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give and take came out people have been
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constantly asking if I am in a culture
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where people are constantly selfish or
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toxic how do I change that and if I'm
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facing undesirable circumstances
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anywhere what do I do about them and I
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didn't feel like I had good answers for
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them so I started doing a lot of
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research and uh here we are great so you
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you you talk uh about entrepreneurship
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right at the beginning of the book uh
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especially the company warie Parker
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which you know U came out of uh the
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efforts of some Wharton students uh when
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typically when people think about
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entrepreneurs they see them as ult the
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ultimate Risk Takers who are willing to
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bet the farm on their dreams uh what is
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your view of Entrepreneurship and the
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relationship between entrepreneurship
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and risk-taking well that's what I
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thought too initially right when I
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thought of an entrepreneur I thought of
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like you know sort of a swashbuckling
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pirate or a daredevil the kind of person
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who had basically leap before he or she
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looked and the data tell a completely
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different story that entrepreneurs are
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not necessarily more risk-taking than
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the rest of us um in fact they may even
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be more risk averse most entrepreneurs
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hate gambling what they really enjoy is
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the opportunity to try something new and
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they're typically driven not by this
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craving for risk but rather this desire
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to say can I pursue a passion can I work
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independently can I do something where
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I'm really going to have an impact and
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so what I think what mystifies a lot of
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us is we look at entrepreneurs and we
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see them taking risks and we assume
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they're Risk Takers really what a lot of
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them are doing is they're managing risk
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portfolios so think about it like a
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stock portfolio right if you're going to
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make a risky investment in one realm
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you're supposed to offset that with a
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safer bet in a different stock and
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entrepreneurs actually do the same thing
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with risk at least the successful ones
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do when they have to go out on a limb in
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one domain they will actually be more
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cautious than another to cover their
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basis now uh you also have so many
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interesting stories in the book uh one
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that I especially liked was about the
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internet browsers that people use does
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that say anything about the people who
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use them and about their originality it
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says more than I initially expected uh
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so this economist Michael hman was
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tracking data on customer service reps
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and call center employees and he found
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that employees who use uh Chrome or
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Firefox actually outperformed Internet
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Explorer and Safari users and they also
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stayed in their job significantly longer
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so I started stalking him of course to
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find out why why what what's going on
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what does Chrome and Firefox do for you
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and it turned out it wasn't a technical
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Advantage it was not that they were
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faster at typing they didn't have more
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computer knowledge it was about how you
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got the browser if you were going to use
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Internet Explorer Safari it comes
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pre-installed on your computer right
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whereas Chrome and Firefox if you want
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them you have to take a little bit of
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initiative and download a different
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browser and that's a signal a window
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around what you do at work so the kinds
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of people who had that instinct to say
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you know what I wonder if there's a
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better browser out there they were also
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the kinds of people who looked for ways
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to improve their own jobs and ultimately
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they were able to create a job where
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they were more effective and and more
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satisfied now people hear about these
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data and sometimes they say well wait if
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I want to get better at my job all I
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have to do is upgrade to Chrome or
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Firefox no right it's about the kind of
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thinking that that underlies that choice
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not just accepting the default that's
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handed to you but asking is there a
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different or better option
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available now in uh thinking about
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originality uh you said the the biggest
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barrier to originality is not the
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ability to generate ideas but to select
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them uh how can people avoid making bad
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bets when it comes to idea selection I I
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think we're all actually pretty terrible
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at this when it comes to our own ideas
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right the evidence is overwhelming there
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you it's hard to find an entrepreneur
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who doesn't think his or her idea is a
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winner um it's really other people's
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feedback that turns out to be important
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so there's this brilliant research by
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Justin Berg uh one of our former
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doctoral students who's now on the
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Stanford faculty and Justin got circus
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artists uh to try to gauge How likely
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their performances were to succeed with
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audiences and they were terrible um they
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overestimated the success of their own
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performances by a lot so then he went to
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managers and he showed a bunch of videos
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so you get to see some jugglers you get
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to see a few clowns by the way nobody
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likes clowns it turns out universally
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hated um you may get to watch a few
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aerial acrobatics performances and then
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the managers make judgments
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and the managers are not very accurate
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either um you tend to be too positive on
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your own ideas managers tend to be too
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negative on other people's ideas because
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they have a prototype about what a great
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circus performance looks like and
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they're evaluating all the ideas that
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come out of the table in terms of does
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that fit or not and the group that was
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much more effective than either people
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themselves or managers was pierce fellow
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circus artists so you might not be able
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to judge your own ideas but you're great
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at forecasting the success of other
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people's ideas because like managers as
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a performer you're much more willing to
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look at an unusual act and say you know
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what I've never seen anything like that
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before but that has potential but you
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also are willing to say you know what
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this is really bad so I think we could
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all rely more on pure feedback and do a
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better job saying look when I've got a
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new idea I'm not necessarily going to
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trust my own judgment but I'm not always
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going to trust especially middle
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managers who tend to be the most risk
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averse and most conservative I'm going
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to go to people who are fellow creators
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right and you have a couple of great
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examples of uh from the business world
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uh of segue uh and Seinfeld uh in in
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demonstrating this can can you tell us a
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little bit about those examples yeah I
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think the the segue example is is a case
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unfortunately of an entrepreneur being
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overconfident in an idea uh so the the
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short version of the story is you have
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this idea for a self-balancing vehicle
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and you don't really go out and figure
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out is this something people would want
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to drive would they trust it would they
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buy it whereas in Seinfeld you have the
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exact opposite instead of a sort of a
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false positive it's a false negative so
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the pilot was rated weak and it was
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actually initially scrapped and then
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this uh this movie executive excuse me
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TV executive uh Rick lwin who doesn't
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even work in comedy he's from the
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variety and specialist Department he
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sees the pilot and he says this is
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really good and he ends up finding a
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slot for it and using his own budget and
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I think what what Rick did was he was
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able to step outside of the prototypes
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that a lot of us tend to use so people
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looked at the Seinfeld pilot and they
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said it's a show about nothing and this
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does not fit the mold of how a comedy or
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sitcom especially is supposed to run
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whereas Rick had come out of variety
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specials lots of different formats and
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he said you know what not every plot has
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to be resolved not every twist needs to
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go somewhere the point is to make people
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laugh and he was much more open to the
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potential there so does that mean that
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when it comes to idea generation that
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quantity is very closely related to
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Quality yeah I think one of the myths
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that people carry around if you want to
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be original you will think look I should
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do less because I want to perfect my
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invention or my creation but again the
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data actually support the opposite story
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uh Dean Simonson's a psychologist who's
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been studying this his whole career and
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what he finds is one of the best
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predictors of how much creative
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productivity you will ultimately achieve
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how much you're regarded as a genius is
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about the number of ideas you produce so
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the more ideas you create the more
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variety you have right and some of those
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ideas are going to be blind alleys or
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random walks in bad directions but you
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have a better shot then of stumbling
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upon something that's really powerful so
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for example when you compare great
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composers if you look at Beethoven Bach
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Mozart it wasn't that their average is
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so much better than their peers it's
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that they generated sometimes 600 or a
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thousand different compositions and a
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few of those are considered true
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masterpieces you can see this not just
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when comparing different kinds of people
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though you can also pick it up when you
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look within a person's career so
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creators are the most novel the most
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original during the times when they have
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the most bad ideas look at Edison for
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example great example Edison made a
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talking doll so creepy that it scared
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not only children but adults too he came
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up with a fruit preservation technique
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that failed he tried to mine um in a
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number of ways that didn't work out and
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it was during window where he had over
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aund failed ideas that he was able to
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perfect the light bulb and I think the
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idea is that you have to generate a lot
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of garbage to reach greatness right no
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one of the challenges that anyone who
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comes up with a new idea is going to
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face is how do you get them heard and
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how do you speak truth to power uh can
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you give us some examples of uh how you
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can do that uh while minimizing the risk
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of damaging your career as as as you
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at the start of our conversation I could
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have really used this advice a while
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back I think one of the the most
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important things that I've learned about
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speaking truth to power is that when
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we're excited about an idea we tend to
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make the mistake of assembling as many
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reasons as possible to support it and by
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the time we pitch it it seems as if
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we're completely biased and blinded
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right it's all this is a good idea and
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there's no balance whatsoever in the
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pitch uh so there's an entrepreneur
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Rufus grisk who has a great antidote to
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this he starts a company called Babble
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it's a parenting website and he goes to
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investors and he says these are the
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three reasons you should not back my
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company and that year he walks away with
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over $3 million Us in funding two years
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later he goes to Disney and says um you
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know I'm interested in selling this
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company to you here are the five reasons
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why you should not buy it and they end
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up buying it for $40
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million now of course part of this it's
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a little bit of an ATT grabbing device
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right you don't expect an entrepreneur
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to say here's why you should not trust
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me but what's interesting is when Rufus
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acknowledges the weaknesses of his idea
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he looks like he's self-critical and
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honest and he also makes it harder for
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people to come up with their own
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objections because as they're thinking
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about their own concerns they say you
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know what he hit three of my four this
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guy must be so confident that he can
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overcome these issues that he's willing
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to admit those weaknesses out loud and
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those strengths must be powerful enough
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to offset them so I think we could all
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do a better job probably giving a more
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balanced case for our our ideas when we
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speak truth to power the other thing
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that I would I would recommend is to
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avoid a mistake that I made which is
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when I went to speak up in in my own
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career I looked for the friendliest most
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agreeable person assuming that's the
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person who's ultimately going to be
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supportive but it turned out that that
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person didn't have my back because just
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as uh he was interested in being nice to
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me he also wanted to keep the peace with
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everyone else what I should have done
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and what the evidence of reports is that
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if you go to a more disagreeable boss
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somebody who tends to be a little bit
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more critical skeptical and challenging
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yeah that person is going to be tougher
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on you but then they will be also more
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willing to rock the boat a little bit
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and stand up for your idea if it's
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unpopular interesting uh when is it the
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right time to exit an organization
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rather than continuing to make the case
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for a idea I think this is a a problem
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that a lot of us struggle with I don't
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know that I have any answers to it um I
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do know though that if you track what
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happens to most people who speak up
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usually they try voicing their idea and
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then if it doesn't work out they either
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decide you know what I don't have other
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options and I need to keep this job or
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they start to look elsewhere I think
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there are a couple of of tests though
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that are worth running before you decide
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to leave the first one is have I gone to
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all of the potential allies that I have
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in the
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organization second one is is it
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possible that there's a better way for
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me to present this idea and that it's
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not that people are un willing to hear
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it it's just that they they didn't see
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the potential because I didn't speak
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about it effectively and then third and
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most importantly the question is what am
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I ultimately trying to accomplish is
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this organization the best site for me
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to reach my goals and I think if you can
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answer those three
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questions I can't succeed on any of them
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it's probably time to start looking
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around a little bit well sometimes
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people procrastinate about some of these
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things uh and you have some interesting
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ideas about procrastination in your book
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book do you see procrastination as a
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strength or as a weakness my stance on
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this has completely changed uh part
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partially during the process of writing
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the book so I expected if you want to be
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an original you know the kind of
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non-conformist who Champions new ideas
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and really drives creativity and change
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in the world I thought you had to be an
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early bird a first mover but again the
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evidence proved me wrong turns out the
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most originals are great procrastinators
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they're constantly putting things off
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and I actually had a a former student G
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Shin who showed that if you
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procrastinate a little bit you will
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generate more creative ideas than if you
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dive right into a task or finish it
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right away and the reason for this is
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pretty simple um and I've actually been
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a victim of the opposite of it for a
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while uh so I am actually a
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precrastinator I'm somebody who if I
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know I have something do in six months I
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will feel urgent pressure to do it now
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and worry about it constantly until the
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moment that it's done and when noticed
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as I compared that against the originals
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that I studied the people that I
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interviewed the data that I gathered was
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a lot of them were waiting for the right
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time and if they put off the start or
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completion of the task a little bit they
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allowed themselves to access more
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diverse ideas and they saw possibilities
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that I wouldn't have seen because our
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first ideas are our most conventional
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typically right you have to sort of weed
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out the familiar in order to get to the
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much more unusual and original and I
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wasn't doing that when I dove right into
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a task so I've come to believe we should
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all procrastinate deliberately um but if
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you push that too far of course you're
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just not going to have time to finish
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your work what is strategic
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procrastination I think of strategic
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procrastination as essentially this idea
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of waiting for the right time so as a
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writer for example um I have learned to
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leave drafts unfinished on purpose and
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what I will do is I'll start working on
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a draft I really want to spend the next
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two hours finishing it I will put it
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away and then 3 days later when I come
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back I have seven or eight new ideas
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that I would never considered because
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now it's in the back of my mind we have
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a much better memory for incomplete than
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complete tasks so the moment I I sort of
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hit send on that on that draft it's out
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of my mind right whereas when I leave it
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open then I'm constantly processing it
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I'm seeing new
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possibilities uh the other thing I've
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I've learned to do over time is I'll
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finish a draft but I won't actually
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submit it or ship it and I'll leave it
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sitting for two or three weeks by the
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time I come back to it I have enough
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distance to say who wrote this
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driil but but I also then again I'm able
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to approach it with a fresh perspective
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and for me that's what strategic
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procrastination is all about I mean
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especially uh in in writing when you say
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something at the heat of in the in the
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in the Heat of the Moment In the Heat of
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writing uh you don't have enough
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distance to be objective about it but
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exactly by waiting it uh I got very
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similar advice from one of my early
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editors in my career and I've always
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appreciated that I think it's wonderful
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advice as long as we find that sweet
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spot right of procrastinating enough to
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allow the ideas to incubate but not so
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much that you run out of time and you
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just have to pick the simplest idea
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exactly now Einstein believed that uh
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people are most creative when they are
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young is that true it seemed to be true
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for Einstein um but not for most of the
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rest of us uh so the story of Einstein
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is actually pretty sad if you look at it
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so transforms physics not once but twice
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with special and general relativity and
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then and he ends up opposing the next
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major revolution in physics which is
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quantum mechanics and ironically his
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opposition to it is debunked because he
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forgot to account for his own theory of
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relativity whoops um so Ein Einstein
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said reflecting on this experience that
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to punish him for uh for testing and
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challenging Authority the fates made him
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athor an authority
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himself and I think that suggests that
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at some point we are all doomed once
00:17:28
we've inter IED ideas to essentially
00:17:31
lose our creativity um when you study
00:17:34
though great scientists musicians poets
00:17:38
artists what you see is that there are
00:17:40
basically two cycles um one is basically
00:17:43
sort of the young genius and this is the
00:17:44
Einstein somebody who comes into a field
00:17:47
accumulates knowledge really quickly but
00:17:50
also has enough distance to not drink
00:17:52
the Kool-Aid and that person ends up
00:17:55
with a flash of insight coming up with a
00:17:57
wildly different way of looking at the
00:17:59
world and yeah if that's your style
00:18:01
you're at risk for becoming too
00:18:03
entrenched and starting to take for
00:18:05
granted so many assumptions that you
00:18:07
can't really think differently in that
00:18:08
field anymore but there's a second path
00:18:11
which was the old master and these are
00:18:13
the people who tended to work much more
00:18:15
experimentally they were doing lots of
00:18:17
little trials and errors they were doing
00:18:19
tests they were iterating and they were
00:18:20
learning from the data as opposed to
00:18:22
having these Eureka moments and they
00:18:24
actually tended to Peak frequently in
00:18:26
their 40s 50s 60s even 70s and8 in some
00:18:29
cases so I think there is hope for those
00:18:32
of us who are more tortoise than
00:18:35
hair
00:18:36
um how can originality be sustained over
00:18:41
time I think one of the the challenges
00:18:44
that we all face if we want to sustain
00:18:45
originality is we have to keep our
00:18:47
exposure to Fresh
00:18:48
ideas and the longer you spend in a
00:18:51
field an organization a job the more
00:18:54
familiar certain things will become and
00:18:57
so you have to push yourself outside of
00:18:58
that comfort zone how do you do that
00:19:00
there's a a study I really enjoy by
00:19:02
Frederick uh Godard and his colleagues
00:19:04
where they actually track uh fashion
00:19:07
designers and they look at what predicts
00:19:09
which fashion houses have the most
00:19:11
creative and original designs and it
00:19:14
turns out one of the best predictors of
00:19:15
that is has the creative director of
00:19:18
that fashion house lived abroad but then
00:19:21
if you break down the data it goes
00:19:23
further living abroad alone is not
00:19:25
enough you have to work abroad you
00:19:27
actually have to use the ideas of the
00:19:28
the culture right not just sort of visit
00:19:30
and enjoy it as a tour a tourist you
00:19:32
have to internalize how that culture
00:19:34
thinks and looks at things differently
00:19:37
and then working abroad you can break
00:19:38
that down further and say it's more
00:19:40
beneficial for your creativity and
00:19:42
originality if you work abroad in
00:19:44
countries that are more different from
00:19:45
your own if you and if you stay there
00:19:48
longer so that kind of breath is what
00:19:50
we're looking for how do you simulate
00:19:52
that I think what a lot of us can do is
00:19:54
we could do a much better job with the
00:19:55
job rotation for example so in your own
00:19:58
organization and spend two days doing a
00:20:00
job that you've never done before gives
00:20:02
you a completely fresh perspective on
00:20:04
the work go to a site visit to a
00:20:06
different organization or even a company
00:20:08
that's in a different field from your
00:20:09
own different industry and all of a
00:20:11
sudden you have lots of ideas that you
00:20:13
can apply to your own
00:20:15
work uh what role do coalitions play in
00:20:18
bringing original ideas to life we all
00:20:20
need allies it's very hard to be a lone
00:20:23
original I think Dereck civer put it
00:20:25
well uh one follower is what trans forms
00:20:29
a lone nut into a
00:20:31
leader and you know no nobody wants to
00:20:34
be that lone nut I think many of us
00:20:37
though assume that we need large
00:20:39
coalitions to support our ideas but most
00:20:41
of the time researched by our own Seagal
00:20:43
barade shows that even a single Ally a
00:20:48
single friend is enough to make you feel
00:20:49
that you're not lonely and so I think
00:20:51
coalitions typically are much more about
00:20:53
finding that very very small group of
00:20:55
people who believe in you and are
00:20:57
willing to give your ideas as a shot as
00:20:59
opposed to saying I need to get 74% of
00:21:02
this organization on
00:21:04
board um you also talk about something
00:21:07
called a trojan horse strategy for
00:21:10
Coalition building what's that well this
00:21:12
was introduced to me by Merith Perry uh
00:21:15
who's a a brilliant entrepreneur uh
00:21:17
she's the founder of ubeam which is
00:21:18
trying to bring Wireless power to the
00:21:20
world and when Meredith started her
00:21:22
company she had this idea that you could
00:21:25
actually transmit transmit electricity
00:21:27
through the air uh and and power up
00:21:29
different kinds of devices phones
00:21:30
computers uh without any kind of cord
00:21:33
and people didn't believe her she tried
00:21:35
to hire the very best Engineers because
00:21:37
she couldn't build the product on her
00:21:38
own and they said that's impossible it
00:21:40
defies the laws of physics she was
00:21:43
convinced that they were wrong so in
00:21:45
order to get them to come on board she
00:21:47
changed her pitch to them instead of
00:21:49
saying I'm trying to build Wireless
00:21:51
power can you make me this kind of
00:21:53
transducer she just said I'm trying to
00:21:56
build a transducer can you make me this
00:21:58
part and she actually disguised her
00:22:00
purpose because it was too radical for
00:22:01
most people to understand and then a
00:22:03
bunch of Engineers came on board and she
00:22:05
was able to work with them to make it
00:22:07
happen and what she did was she smuggled
00:22:09
her real Vision in that case inside a
00:22:10
trojan horse right she's really trying
00:22:12
to build Wireless power but she has a
00:22:13
bunch of people working on different
00:22:15
pieces that ultimately will come
00:22:16
together for a different outcome than
00:22:18
they intend and I think the more radical
00:22:20
the more original your idea is the more
00:22:23
important it is to make sure that people
00:22:24
aren't dissuaded by the end and instead
00:22:28
Focus them on perhaps a more moderate
00:22:31
goal that they think is
00:22:32
plausible uh does originality have um
00:22:37
roots in family uh does for example does
00:22:40
birth order matter in originality it
00:22:43
matters more than I expected going in
00:22:46
there's a huge debate about birth order
00:22:48
and I would say the jury is still out
00:22:50
overall but there is compelling evidence
00:22:52
that firstborns on average tend to be a
00:22:54
little bit smarter and a little bit more
00:22:57
likely to achieve convention success in
00:22:59
fields like politics and science uh we
00:23:02
have more elected officials who are
00:23:04
firstborn for example uh we also have
00:23:06
more Nobel prize winning scientists
00:23:08
however when it comes to originality
00:23:10
completely changing the way that a field
00:23:12
operates or introducing a new technology
00:23:15
there does appear to be a later born
00:23:17
advantage and I think there are a couple
00:23:19
of reasons for that one is that
00:23:21
laterborns are given more freedom so by
00:23:25
the time you know you have three or four
00:23:27
older siblings you're allowed to do a
00:23:29
lot of things that they weren't allowed
00:23:30
to do growing up and you get to take
00:23:32
some risks the other thing that happens
00:23:34
is some of the more conventional
00:23:35
achievement niches are filled so you
00:23:38
know you may have an older sibling who's
00:23:40
the academic star and one who's an
00:23:42
athlete and you need to find other ways
00:23:44
to differentiate yourself and one of
00:23:45
those can be
00:23:47
creativity uh I I was interested in
00:23:49
tracking this as you know with comedians
00:23:52
uh so I took comedy Central's list of
00:23:53
the hundred um greatest standup comics
00:23:55
of all time which had some great
00:23:57
Originals people like Chris Rock George
00:23:59
Carlin Jerry Seinfeld and I studied
00:24:02
their birth order and found that they
00:24:04
were more than twice as likely to be
00:24:06
born last in their families as first and
00:24:08
the odds of that happening by chancel at
00:24:10
loone are two in a million so I think
00:24:13
there there is perhaps an advantage for
00:24:15
laterborns in originality as a firstborn
00:24:17
I was not excited by this research but
00:24:19
the good news is that birth order
00:24:21
effects are not set in stone right so
00:24:23
giving children the kinds of Freedom
00:24:24
encouraging them to find unique niches
00:24:27
to express themselves I think can push
00:24:29
all of us even us firstborns in a more
00:24:31
original Direction so I I I I wonder if
00:24:34
you could talk about that in a little
00:24:36
more detail how can parents uh nurture
00:24:39
more originality uh among their children
00:24:42
well I think Role Models play an
00:24:43
important part of this process so what a
00:24:47
lot of children do is they become
00:24:49
unoriginal because they've only been
00:24:51
exposed to models or standards who are
00:24:54
very familiar and conventional right so
00:24:57
children grow up they see lots of
00:24:59
Engineers doctors lawyers teachers and
00:25:01
they say that's what I want to do too as
00:25:03
parents we can open up more original
00:25:05
niches by exposing children to a much
00:25:07
wider variety of occupations careers
00:25:10
ideas and some of the most original
00:25:12
possibilities are not going to exist yet
00:25:15
which is why when you listen to what
00:25:17
some of the great Originals in the
00:25:19
technology World say they will
00:25:20
frequently identify their inspiration in
00:25:23
science fiction uh books like Ender Game
00:25:26
uh now we're probably going to see more
00:25:27
Harry Potter references is when we ask
00:25:29
the next generation of entrepreneurs
00:25:30
what inspired you but it's amazing how
00:25:33
many inventions come out of fictional
00:25:35
stories and I think we could do a much
00:25:37
better job making sure that children are
00:25:39
exposed to lots of ideas that don't
00:25:40
exist yet so that when they see for
00:25:43
example the next generation of somebody
00:25:45
using what looks a lot like a mobile
00:25:47
phone in a 1960s Star Trek episode they
00:25:50
say you know what I want to go out and
00:25:51
create that you
00:25:54
know when you consider families or even
00:25:56
companies one of the big problem seems
00:25:59
to be group think how how does that come
00:26:01
about and how can you prevent it a lot
00:26:04
of people attribute group think to
00:26:07
cohesion they think that if we're too
00:26:09
close if we trust each other too much M
00:26:11
if you and I like each other too much
00:26:13
then we're not going to challenge each
00:26:14
other that turns out to be false um
00:26:17
cohesive groups often make the best
00:26:19
decisions and people frequently when
00:26:21
they trust each other are willing to
00:26:22
challenge each other and say I know this
00:26:24
person is not going to take this too
00:26:26
personally but
00:26:28
if you're not careful cohesion can take
00:26:31
you down a path toward group think when
00:26:33
people become more concerned about
00:26:35
politics and about maintaining their
00:26:37
relationships and reputations than about
00:26:39
speaking their minds and being honest so
00:26:42
most leaders try to combat this by
00:26:44
assigning Devil's Advocates right I know
00:26:47
that there's a majority preference in
00:26:48
the room so I'm going to assign one
00:26:50
person to be the the opposite Devil's
00:26:53
Advocates according to the research
00:26:55
don't work very well most of the time
00:26:57
charlon neth Berkeley has been studying
00:26:59
this for over four decades and what she
00:27:00
shows is Devil's Advocates make two
00:27:03
mistakes one is they tend to give lip
00:27:04
service to an idea but they don't really
00:27:06
believe in it so they don't sell it
00:27:08
secondly when Devil's Advocates speak
00:27:11
people know they're just playing a role
00:27:13
right I don't need to take you seriously
00:27:15
okay I pretended to advocate for this
00:27:17
position and now we can go back to the
00:27:18
majority preference instead of assigning
00:27:21
a devil's advocate I think what we all
00:27:22
need to do is unearth a devil's advocate
00:27:25
genuine denters people who actually hold
00:27:27
the minor opinion we need to find those
00:27:29
people we need to invite them into the
00:27:31
conversation and give them a voice and
00:27:33
what's so powerful about that is it
00:27:35
turns out minority opinions are useful
00:27:37
even when they're wrong so let's say
00:27:39
we're going to hire one of four
00:27:41
candidates and almost everybody in the
00:27:43
room prefers candidate a and candidate B
00:27:47
is really the best one if someone comes
00:27:49
in and advocates for candidate C we will
00:27:52
have a better shot at choosing
00:27:53
ultimately the right candidate of B
00:27:56
Because when Divergent information comes
00:27:58
to the table we're much more likely to
00:27:59
reevaluate our assumptions consider new
00:28:01
criteria and make a better
00:28:04
decision to to just uh conclude this
00:28:07
fascinating conversation uh I wonder if
00:28:09
you could uh talk a little bit about how
00:28:13
organizations can create a culture of
00:28:16
nurturing
00:28:17
originality uh if you can offer some
00:28:20
practical
00:28:23
advice originality thrives as opposed to
00:28:26
being stifled there are a couple things
00:28:28
to do one is you have to make it safe
00:28:31
for people to fail you have to make it
00:28:33
okay for ideas to come up that don't go
00:28:35
anywhere because if you squash all the
00:28:38
bad ideas you're going to miss out on
00:28:39
some of your most original
00:28:41
possibilities a second step that that
00:28:43
turns out to be really critical if you
00:28:45
care about originality in your
00:28:46
organization and especially if you want
00:28:48
it to be a core part of the culture is
00:28:50
you have to think differently about
00:28:51
hiring a lot of leaders hire on culture
00:28:54
fit they say look I want people who
00:28:56
share our values who match the culture
00:28:59
and that's actually a recipe for group
00:29:01
think you hire a bunch of people who
00:29:03
look at problems in the same way who
00:29:04
have the same opinions the same
00:29:06
principles Ideo the design firm has I
00:29:09
think a compelling alternative to this
00:29:11
they say look we're going to throw
00:29:12
cultural fit out the window instead we
00:29:15
look for cultural contribution so when
00:29:17
we hire we're not looking for people who
00:29:19
are going to replicate or clone the
00:29:21
culture we're going to find people who
00:29:23
enrich the culture and the test of that
00:29:25
is to figure out what's missing from
00:29:26
your culture and then try to bring in
00:29:28
people who can who can embody that and
00:29:31
then the I think the third thing to do
00:29:32
if you want to build a culture of
00:29:33
originality is you need to challenge the
00:29:36
status quo a lot you need to get people
00:29:38
uh as Bob Sutton at Stanford would say
00:29:40
feeling comfortable being
00:29:42
uncomfortable and one of my favorite
00:29:44
ways of doing that is uh from Lisa
00:29:46
bodell at Future think uh she actually
00:29:47
runs this kill the company exercise
00:29:50
where she brings leaders together and
00:29:51
has them spend maybe an hour or two
00:29:53
brainstorming ways to put their own
00:29:55
company out of business now I've seen
00:29:57
this done in um financial services and
00:29:59
pharmaceutical companies and I have
00:30:01
never seen Executives so excited as when
00:30:03
they finally get to to trash their own
00:30:05
employer but what's interesting about it
00:30:08
is it shifts their mindset because they
00:30:10
start to think about instead of playing
00:30:11
defense and protecting themselves
00:30:13
against competitive threats they're on
00:30:15
offense and they get to try all these
00:30:17
new possibilities and drill into them
00:30:19
and then after that when they shift back
00:30:21
to thinking how do I defend against
00:30:23
these threats they have much more
00:30:24
creativity at their disposal so I think
00:30:26
that's a good example of of shaking
00:30:28
things up a little bit Adam thanks so
00:30:31
much for speaking with knowledge at
00:30:32
Warton today thank you
00:30:46
[Music]
