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[Music]
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[Music]
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dan welcome we're excited to have you
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here and talk about your new book to
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sell is human many many fascinating
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ideas in it could you start off by
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talking to us a little bit about why are
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we all in sales yeah well there are a
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couple animating ideas in the book Adam
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one of them is is that like it or not
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we're all in sales if you look at the
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labor data one in nine people in the
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economy today one of our workers makes a
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living selling stuff they're car dealers
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real estate agents but I had an instinct
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about those other eight and nine and
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when Adam did some survey research and
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found that those other eight and nine
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these are people who are not nominally
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in sales they are managers they are
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project team leaders they are teachers
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and art directors that they're spending
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an enormous amount of their time in what
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I call non sales selling their there
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they're selling their convincing you to
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make an exchange give me something you
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have in exchange for something that I
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have but it's denominated not in dollars
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it's nominated in time it's denominated
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in attention it's dominated in an effort
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and so I think if you look at how
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white-collar workers are spending their
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time whether they're in traditional
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sales or some other kind of function a
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lot of their time and effort is spent
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convincing persuading controlling
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influencing people and the truth is is
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that when you tell everybody you do tell
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people you're in sales a lot of people
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don't like it very much at all I don't
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want to be in sales no no one does I
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mean why am I in it
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well well well the reason well I think
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what's interesting is that why people
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don't want to be in there because they
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have this association that sales is
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sleazy slimy smarmy lowbrow low-rent
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it's about hoodwink are--and sleazebag
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are-- and all those kind of other great
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words that we use to describe it you
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know something is awesome when there's
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so many different synonyms to describe
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how duplicitous it is and my view is
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that that's a very outdated form of
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sales in all its dimensions so that is a
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view the view that sales this slimy
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smarmy sleazy duplicitous is a view to
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me about the conditions in which sales
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have taken place for a long time rather
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than the nature of sales itself and what
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I mean by that is that most of what we
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know about sales sales car sales real
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estate sales whatever I come from a
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world of information asymmetry where the
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seller always had for more information
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than the buyer when the seller has more
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information on the buyer the seller can
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rip you off period it
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is why we have the whole principle of
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caveat emptor buyer beware but now more
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and more and not everywhere but in a lot
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of markets that information asymmetry is
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becoming more like information parody
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and you see this in a you see this in
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sales sales business the consumer sales
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where people walk into a car dealer
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armed with information that in some
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cases not even the car dealer him or
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herself had twenty years ago you also
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see it in b2b sales where you talked to
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basically anybody in b2b sales and what
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they're telling what they'll tell you is
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that they are the customer the prospect
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is engaging in the sales process far far
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far later in the game because they're
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able to do their own due diligence their
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own information gathering and they have
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a set of ideas a set of options in mind
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when they engage the the salesperson so
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the animating ideas here are like it or
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not we're all in sales now but sales
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isn't what it used to be and so if sales
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is more about the highroad not
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everywhere but it's more about the
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highroad I said what are the qualities
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that matter most and there I plumb the
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research of social scientists like you
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and your colleagues all over the world
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to try to say you know let's not go
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based on books about eighteen ways to
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close the deal or you know the kind of
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books that populate the sales shelves
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let's look a little bit at what social
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scientists have told us about what's
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effective here so what is effective if
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granted I guess I am in sales and we all
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are if I want to get better at it what
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are some of your favorite well I mean I
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think that here's the thing I think that
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educators are in sales essentially what
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you're doing is you're at some level
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making an exchange with your class
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you're saying give me your attention in
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exchange I'll give you something else
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and now it's not the cash register
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that's not ringing it's not denominated
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in dollars or cents or euros but it is a
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form of sales in a way it is an exchange
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I think that that managers and
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organizations absolutely are doing this
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and if you look at some of the data that
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we have we we have a kind of a we had
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asked a question of how much times
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people are spending doing this sort of
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stuff we had a mean of 40% but at some
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level it masked what was else was going
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on because we had a lot of people up on
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the upper register 7080 percent and I
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think a lot of them were managers what
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are they doing they're trying to
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convince someone to join their team
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they're trying to get a current employee
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to do things a little bit differently or
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to do something else that's a little bit
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different they are dealing with their
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own bosses and trying to persuade them
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and so managers leaders inside of
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organizations are spending huge amounts
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of time doing this and I think the way
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to do it better the way to do it better
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in all senses of the word more
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effectively and more ethically is what I
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call the new ABCs attunement buoyancy
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and clarity tournament buoyancy and
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clarity a attunement perspective taking
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how do you understand someone else's
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perspective be buoyancy salespeople in
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general one of my favorite characters in
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this book was a guy named Norman Hall
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who's a soul full of brushes sales
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fuller brushes last Fuller Brush man in
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San Francisco and he said I love this
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phrase he said when you're in sales
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every day you face this is various an
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ocean of rejection so buoyancy is how do
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you remain buoyant on an ocean of
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rejection what do you do before what do
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you do during what do you do after and
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then clarity is I think this is really
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important for leaders and even business
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school students first of all we got a
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lot of information so accessing
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information doesn't give you much of an
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advantage what matters more is being
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able to curate the information filter
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the information make sense of it
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detect patterns in the information the
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second thing and not only through data
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analytics and things like that but just
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being able to sort of synthesize the
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information on your own the second thing
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is I think there's a premium now on
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premium problem-solving as a skill to
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problem finding that if a customer or
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prospect knows precisely what their
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problem is if I can articulate identify
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exactly what my problem is I can
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probably find a solution but you're more
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useful if I don't know what my problem
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is or if I'm wrong about my problem and
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so this move from problem-solving to
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problem finding is clarity so these are
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the new ABCs and there's some really
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interesting ways that I think managers
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leaders and organizations can get a lot
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better at them so if I think about these
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ABCs at least the a and the C it almost
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sounds like selling is a little bit more
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about advising or consulting than it is
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sort of influencing pushing persuading
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is that is that fair I think it's a very
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very fair comment and that's in fact one
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reason why I wanted to draw the chi mean
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one reason I wanted to draw the
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contrast ABC comes from always be
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closing which is the pushing steamroller
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drive drive drive and what I wanted to
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try to do is is in some ways take that
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on and one of the things that you see
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out there in sales sales is a move from
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even from selling solutions which was a
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idea that's been around for a while to
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selling insights one of my favorite
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examples is is a Perfetti Van Melle the
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confetti the candy company they say they
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make Mentos okay I happen to love Mentos
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and what they did is they their sales
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forces going into mom-and-pop shops
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convenience stores bodegas selling
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Mentos and they made a transition in
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their sales process and the way that
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they trained their salespeople in the
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way that their salespeople did their
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work they felt that they had a lot of
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data about candy of all sorts they were
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able to take that data with the each
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stores data put it together so they come
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in on a sales call and they say to that
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mom-and-pop shop we've looked at your
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data we've looked at our data here's our
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recommendations for the the sweet s you
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ite suite of products that you're that
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you should be selling and in some cases
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it'll mean selling we're only gonna
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recommend five kinds of Mentos for your
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store instead of seven even though in
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the short term seven is a better deal
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for us in some cases we're gonna
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recommend our competitors products which
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is you know heresy in the world of sales
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and so they say we're you know we're not
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only selling we're selling Mentos but
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we're really selling insights about the
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confections business and as a result of
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that so your point about advising this
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is this is a these are sales people who
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are actually welcomed when they arrive
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because there's they're there offering
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insights and not simply trying to push
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more candy on your on your store shelves
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and in the long run I think today that's
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much more effective that's an incredibly
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interesting example and I guess one of
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the questions it raises for me touches
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on one of the skills that you talked
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about in the book which is pitching yeah
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so it's easy to pitch a product how do
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you pitch an insight Oh interesting well
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I think the the the insight in that case
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would be think about an example for some
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reason this is an area that isn't that
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predisposed to mints mint flavors or
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something like that
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or there's a new emerging kind of more
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natural kind of product that's that's
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actually perking up in areas like yours
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and you can pitch basically that so it's
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an insight it ultimately is an insight
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about a product it's an insight about
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how to run your business but at the
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heart of it especially in the
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confections business it's about what
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group of products you actually offer
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great and let's come back then to the B
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in the ABC so buoyancy so we all face a
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lot of rejection as we try to achieve
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our goals what are some of the most
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effective strategies you've uncovered
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for maintaining that well well one of
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them one of my favorites because it's so
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counterintuitive comes from some work by
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some folks at Illinois actually one of
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them now here at Wharton and Mississippi
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State about a self talk and the
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conventional view on self talk is that
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we should pump ourselves up we're going
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into a sales call you can do it you got
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this you're an aunt you know even some
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of the hyper-masculine sort of you're an
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animal you're a monster that kind of
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stuff and what this research found is
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that you're better off deploying what
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they call interrogative self-talk not
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saying I can do it but asking yourself
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can you do this and it seems weird it
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seems you know like Stuart Smalley and
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Tony Robbins would start you know going
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crazy over this but when you unpack it
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it actually makes a lot of sense if I go
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into an encounter let's say let's say
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let's say I'm pitching ideas for a new
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book or let's say that I'm pitching
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ideas to assign pitching ideas for a new
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book if I go into that pitch meeting
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ahead of time and say Dan you can do
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this right that's sort of affirmative
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declarative pumping up I feel pretty
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good about that
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I mean I do I like hearing that I'm
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awesome I like telling myself it's fine
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I mean there is there is I mean again I
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don't know the research on this
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particular thing but there is at least
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in our human experience a kind of sort
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of a certain level of at least momentary
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buoyancy in that affirmation we feel
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good but if I say instead can you do
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this questions are active and that's the
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whole point the questions require even
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in self-talk questions elicit active
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response so if I say can you do this I
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say well yeah I can do this I've pitched
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books before can you do this yeah I can
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do this
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because this is a really great this is a
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really great idea and I've researched it
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really well and I can just I'm very
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confident in the contours of this idea
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can I do this
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you know every time I put your book
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Mariya over there she doesn't like it
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okay she's she's a total naysayer and
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but what I've done is I've done some
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research and figured out what really
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lights Maria's porch light and I will
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make sure I've got to make sure I
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mentioned that to get Maria so what am I
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doing there I'm preparing it's so so
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this thing that sort of nominally kind
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of even has a kind of fake muscularity
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to it this you can do it you got this
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but the real muscularity is in asking
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yourself the question and actively
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responding because then you actually
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begin to rehearse you begin to prepare
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you begin to summon your reasons for
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doing it and it ends up being far more
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effective and what I like about that is
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that anybody can do it
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and it doesn't cost you any extra money
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it just as a matter of changing yourself
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talk from affirmative and declarative to
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interrogative so I think this is one of
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the most powerful themes in the book is
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the idea of question yes so you've
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talked to us about about questions that
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you would record yourself yeah how did
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questions play into then moving other
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people there are a number of different
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there are a number different ways of
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there are no different ways about that
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one of my one of the interesting
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techniques again at the level of the
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level of tactics it goes to in some ways
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the clarity is some of the work in the
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therapeutic technique of motivational
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interviewing so let's say that I mean I
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think this works in all realms of our
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life so let's say that I've got I've got
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three kids and I got a 14 year old
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daughter 16 year old daughter neither
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one of them ever cleans their room
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okay the rooms are just total pigsty and
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so for a long time I you know as I you
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know my strategy was just to close the
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door okay so but you know again it ends
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up actually affecting me because someone
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can find something and hey Dad where's
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the baby okay so so let's say I want to
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convince my fourteen-year-old daughter
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Eliza to clean her room now I could try
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the parental command and control
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approach you got to clean your room I
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could try the carrot and stick approach
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I'll give you ten bucks to clean your
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room that's not gonna work I mean it
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might get some nominal cleaning in the
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short term but it's not sustained
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behavior
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I could do a stick approach you're gonna
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I'm gonna issue some punishment but
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those kinds of things don't have any
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enduring effect and so what this
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motivational interviewing techniques
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suggest us to do is this I say to my
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daughter Eliza Eliza on a scale of one
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to ten one meaning not ready at all 10
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meaning totally ready to do this scale
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of 1 to 10 how ready are you to clean up
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this mess of a room now so let's say
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that she says he's obviously not that
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ready to do it because it's still messy
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so let's say she says a3 on a scale of
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10 all right this is where it gets
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interesting I say oh three okay great
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why isn't it lower and this is the
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really key point here in this
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therapeutic technique why isn't it lower
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if first of all the question is to
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surprise because the standard
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expectation it's three what do you mean
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it should be a nine this is really
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important a three okay why isn't it
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lower why isn't it - and so what she did
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she begins summoning her own reasons for
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doing something she's well sometimes
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hard to find stuff sometimes you and Mom
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aren't around so if I lose something I
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can't find it you know it actually feels
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a little bit better when my room is a
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little bit clean and so what she does is
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that the question again because it's
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active it's it's it's it's active and
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autonomous so she has to respond
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actively but she also summons her own
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autonomous intrinsically motivated
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reasons for for doing something and and
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that's generally a better path to
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sustained behavior I love the example I
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guess I'm wondering what happens when
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you repeat it yeah she learns and says
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oh yeah yeah no here's the thing on that
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one I think you have to deploy it very
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carefully you don't do it on everything
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it's like okay okay guys we're having
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dinner now
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and somebody's at the table I don't want
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us a table on a scale of 1 to 10 how
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right no I think you have to deploy it I
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didn't get to deploy it sparingly and
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for things that actually four things
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that actually matter but but again it
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goes back to this book drive that I
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wrote where one of the great social
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psychologists of our age Edward DC says
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you know repeatedly he says we have to
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think about motivation not as something
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one person does to another but as
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something people do for themselves and
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what you can
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do is you and I think questions have
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that kind of power there they're not
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directive they they're they're active
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they're engaging and if people respond
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to it they come up with their own
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reasons and that's you know the truth is
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if we have our own reasons for doing
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something reasons that we endorse we're
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more likely to do it more likely to
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stick with it I think that makes a lot
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of sense I guess one thing I'm curious
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about on that is if you think about sort
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of the more slick and manipulative types
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of sales yellow that your your debunking
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in this book yeah
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can they can they use this for evil in
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the sense of you know leading the
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witness
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I think that's possible I mean I think
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that's possible to use some of these
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tactics for for evil for instance you
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could have a evil is a strong word but
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so for for not good things rather than
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for for good things for instance there's
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some interesting research showing that
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when we hear rhymes things that rhyme if
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it doesn't fit you must have quit or the
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great studies showing that people tend
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to think if you take the aphorism woes
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unite foes versus woes unite enemies
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same substantively we can arm the
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linguist can argue whether or no they
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mean slightly different things but let's
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just say stipulate that substantively it
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means pretty much the same thing you
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give those two statements to people and
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they'll say woes unite foes is a much
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more accurate description of human
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character much more true principle about
00:17:10
life and the reason is is that rhymes
00:17:14
increase processing fluency and so it's
00:17:16
possible to use a wrong I'm sure it's
00:17:17
been there are histories where a rhyming
00:17:20
pitch could be used for evil ends or
00:17:23
nefarious ends same thing is true with
00:17:26
cinta it's interesting question I bet
00:17:28
sort of certain kind of far right far
00:17:33
left facetious fascist or extreme
00:17:36
totalitarian folks have probably used
00:17:38
questions as a way to summon people's
00:17:40
responses mm-hmm so I guess then if we
00:17:43
can sort of take this toward your own
00:17:45
application of these principles I know
00:17:47
your identity has evolved a little bit
00:17:48
as you worked on the book to see
00:17:49
yourself as a salesman yeah that's true
00:17:51
yeah so what implications has that had
00:17:53
for how you do your own daily work it's
00:17:58
actually had a lot and probably more
00:18:00
than any other book that I've that I've
00:18:02
written I found myself in the research
00:18:04
and the reporting of this book saying
00:18:06
wait a second I could actually so on so
00:18:07
many different dimensions one of them is
00:18:09
I rely mean it's a look I don't to say
00:18:12
it's late in the game but but I realized
00:18:15
that I wasn't very adept at listening
00:18:18
and enjoy what were you saying I wasn't
00:18:23
adept at listening and one of the things
00:18:26
that I've tried to do is be at some
00:18:31
level it's just simply to wait not to
00:18:33
jump right in when people say something
00:18:35
or so to make sure that I actually hear
00:18:37
it to concentrate a little bit more on
00:18:39
listening as a form of attunement the
00:18:42
other thing I was very taken by the
00:18:44
research on some of the research on
00:18:46
perspective-taking as as something
00:18:49
different from empathy that is not
00:18:51
simply understanding people's feelings
00:18:53
but understanding what they're thinking
00:18:55
and what their interests are and I found
00:18:57
myself in certain kinds of conflicts and
00:18:59
negotiations really stopping and saying
00:19:01
literally saying what are these person's
00:19:03
interests what are what are they
00:19:05
thinking I mean I want to be emotionally
00:19:06
intelligent about it all I want to
00:19:07
empathy see where they're coming from
00:19:09
and that's more effective than doing
00:19:10
nothing but I I think the muscularity of
00:19:13
of perspective-taking as a kind of
00:19:16
cognitive skill has been very useful to
00:19:18
me I mean truly the interrogative
00:19:23
self-talk has been the interrogative
00:19:25
self-talk has been useful to me in
00:19:26
preparing myself for things and even the
00:19:31
even the you know some of the the
00:19:33
information about about about pitches so
00:19:36
that so there's some interesting
00:19:37
research at Carnegie Mellon about how to
00:19:38
your draft an email subject line and
00:19:40
that has been really useful to me I
00:19:43
realized how bad my email subject lines
00:19:44
were there - they're too mushy and so
00:19:47
that's helped me clarify that so a lot
00:19:49
of things really at the tactical level
00:19:50
that have made me say hey you know what
00:19:52
I can get a little bit a little bit
00:19:54
better at all this stuff very good well
00:19:56
Dan thank you very much for joining us
00:19:57
today thanks for having me and we look
00:19:59
forward to continuing to dive in this to
00:20:01
sell as human the surprising truth about
00:20:03
moving others all right
00:20:08
[Music]
00:20:21
you
