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Hello and welcome. You're listening to
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Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast
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Network. That's our weekly podcast where
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we analyze the latest in advertising,
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retailing, marketing, customer behavior,
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and new product launches. I'm Barbara
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Khan, the Patty and JH Baker Professor
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of Marketing. Um, and my co-host,
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America's Reed, can't join us today, so
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I'm alone. But it's going to be an
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exciting show anyway because we have as
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our guest Doug Zarkin. Doug is the first
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chief marketing officer of Take Five Oil
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Change. And before he started this new
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position, he was at the wellness and
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fitness service company, Modern
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Performance and Recovery Brands. It's
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known for the Good Feet store. And he
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was chief brand officer there since
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2023. and he led a national successful
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partnership with Katie Kurrick. Before
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that, he was CMO of Pearl Vision, which
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is a Lexotica company. They wrote a
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Harvard case on that on that company.
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And he's held marketing leadership roles
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at fashion companies like Kelwood, Waro,
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and limited brands as well as the
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cosmetics brands. Avon, long, long, long
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marketing history. And now he's at Take
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Five Oil Change. Doug, welcome to our
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podcast. Barbara, thanks for having me.
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I appreciate it.
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>> You know, I'm really excited to look at
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your background to talk to you before we
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talk about Take Five and I watched that
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spot. It was very clever. I was
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thinking, how can you make a lube change
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clever, but you did it. Um, but before
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we talk about that, I'm really
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interested in your career because you've
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been in marketing and in branding,
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creating brands for a long time, but
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over that length of time, how you create
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brands has changed a lot. We've moved
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from a a traditional branding
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advertising world to now collaboration,
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social media, and I'm kind of curious
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since you've been at the helm of these
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big brands for so long, what your take
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is on the way marketing has changed and
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the way you execute brands.
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>> You know, it's interesting. You know,
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while the tools and tactics have
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certainly changed, I think the
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fundamentals haven't, which is
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marketing's purpose is to motivate the
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consumer to take the action that you
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would like them to take when you would
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like them to take it. And that's the
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what. The how in terms of how you do
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that, again, for me at least, has really
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always centered around this notion of
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thinking human. the idea of treating
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every customer that walks into your
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store, visits your ecom site, or in our
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case goes into one of our service
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centers as if they're the only car
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that's coming in that day. And if you
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build an ecosystem around that, and your
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marketing reflects that ecosystem,
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you're going to connect with them first
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emotionally and then rationally. And the
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reality is is that in today's landscape
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in particular, given so many choices and
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options, consumers make emotional
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decisions before they make rational
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choices. And so it's really our
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obligation if we want to take on that
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huge task. We've got to start with the
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humility. And the humility really does
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mean getting into the mindset, capturing
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that heart, capturing that mind in order
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to capture that traffic and that
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business. Yeah, I understand that
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concept and I completely agree with it
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and I like I know you've written a book
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on this and let's get out of the friend
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zone, you know, and really create brand
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love. But I'm just curious how you've
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made the change and how you've learned.
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I mean, because you started in branding
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when it was so different and now it's
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about social influencers, social media
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collaborations. Like, how did that
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happen? And how did you learn how to do
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that from one
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>> that's the nicest way somebody's told me
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that I'm old in a very long time. Um you
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know for me I think in particular it
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used to be a a a funnel. It used to be a
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linear funnel right
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>> and I think today the appreciation is
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really that it's more like a subway map
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than a linear funnel which means that
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every tool and tactic you really have to
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recognize its role in the ecosystem. I
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mean, certainly you're not going to
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build brand on paper click, but you have
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to recognize that action isn't confined
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to what used to be considered to be
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actionoriented media. Again, for me, it
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really gets down to that art of
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sacrifice. You know, if you're trying to
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say everything, you're going to say
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nothing. And so working with our
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creative agencies, our media partners,
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really developing briefs for channels,
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not just campaigns, and critically
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understanding how the ecosystem
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functions so that every single tool in
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the toolbox can be a valuable tool in
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order to achieve the results that we're
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looking to achieve.
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>> Yeah. I just really want to make this
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concrete. So let's go to the example of
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this take five oil change as an example.
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And I watched that ad. I thought it was
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a very clever ad. There's a few thing
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I'm I I'm curious where the ad runs, how
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it works. I'm one of the things that I
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thought was very interesting was the
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collaboration with the Brad Pitt movie.
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Um, how did all that come about? How did
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you I mean, that was really it. It's
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interesting. You're advertising the
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movie as well as your own service, but
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it works together in a really
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interesting way.
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>> I mean, integrations is definitely not a
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new phenomenon. I think in in the case
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of F1 and again I'm I'm new to the
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business so this partnership predated me
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and I give all the credit to the team
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that's in place today that I now have
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the pleasure to lead on building that. I
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think what that movie represents is
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something that's critical in today's
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landscape which is looking for less
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competitive cluttered touch points. An
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integration into a movie allows you the
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opportunity if it's done well to build
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your educated brand awareness. In an
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ideal world, it is something that is
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systematic relative to your brand. So in
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the case of F1, obviously the movie has
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to do with the automotive industry.
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Obviously, it's F1. Our integration, I
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think, does a really strong job of
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connecting us to that industry again
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with very limited clutter. Those kind of
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integrations and even the use of where
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you're seeing Clive appear is really
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about that onetoone marketing. It's
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really about trying to break through to
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develop that resonance. Um, you know,
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certainly it wouldn't be smart of me to
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lay out the entire playbook for you, but
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what I can say is that given the the
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depth and breadth of our business, 1,200
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locations, national brand, we still
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recognize the power of community. And so
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it really is about winning those local
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wars for share of mind, share of wallet.
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Uh and so we're getting very specific
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with our agencies in terms of geo
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fencing and targeting using tools like
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placer AI to help us build really strong
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strategies and again having the humility
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to recognize that to do it alone is one
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thing but it's a lot more fun and
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usually a lot more effective to do it
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with key partners. So we have a number
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of partnerships involved in take five
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that help us break through the clutter
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and really connect the brand on both an
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emotional and rational level.
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>> So okay so let's go back to this idea
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that and what's the name of your book?
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book I know you just recently
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>> the name of my book is moving your brand
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out of the friend zone
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>> right um and so this is this idea that
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you started off with that you've got to
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make it really personal and here you're
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talking about you know some people might
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think it's kind of a boring category you
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know a fast l you know oil change or
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something like that but you've tried to
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make this personal I guess through this
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Clive character can you is that like
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part of how you make it a personal
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relationship by building a character
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there.
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>> Well, I don't think Clive is a character
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as much as Clive really represents a
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platform. Um, you know, the human
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anxiety and the angst when that oil
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change light comes on or they look at
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the sticker and they realize that it's
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time for them to get their oil changed.
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There are human truths there that we
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need to capture. And I think Clive for
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us offers the opportunity to tap into
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those human truths and reflect them. Um,
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you know, unlike Flo, the progressive
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lady, um, or Jake from State Farm, Clive
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doesn't work for Take Five.
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Clive as a platform is the embodiment of
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what is going on in the mindset of the
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consumer. And so what you've seen with
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Clive is the pilot episode. Um, as I've
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come on board and working with our
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creative agency, we're in the process of
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kind of mapping what the the the 10
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episode deal will be. You know, where
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does that platform go? What are the
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stories that we're going to tell? It's
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way too early to share that. Happy to
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come back on when we've gotten a little
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further in our journey. But for us, I
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think what Clive allows us to do, it's a
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pathway to express what is going through
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the mind of the consumer when that light
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comes on and how to candidly our fast
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friendly service um solve that that
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tension um both on a practical as well
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as an emotional level.
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>> Okay. So, let's not get into the
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specifics, but I I really like this idea
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and I kind of want to dig deeper into
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it. So if you're giving advice to
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somebody who's trying to build this
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human connection for a brand, get out of
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the friend zone, which is your whole
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mantra, that's what you're trying to do.
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>> Would you suggest that people take their
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brand and put some human face on it in
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order to and use that, like you said, as
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a platform for thinking about the
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message? Is that kind of one way to
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implement this idea?
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>> Well, it's a way I wouldn't recommend it
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for every brand. I think where where I
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go with it is really understanding the
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mindset of your customer. And that
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really what you is what you need to do
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to move your brand out of the friend
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zone. You know, it's not enough to have
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a casual relationship with your
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consumer. They've really got to be
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invested in your brand. But there's also
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a humility that comes with it. You know,
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as a as a business that sees customers
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at best twice a year, um we have to
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recognize our place in the in the
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zeitgeist for our customers. And so we
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have to be very careful in terms of
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where we talk, how frequently we talk,
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and what we're saying um in order to be
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effective and not just be noise. And you
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know, as I'm coming on board and looking
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at our platform, working in our in our
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stores, talking to our teams,
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recognizing that there are opportunities
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to sort of deepen that. At the same
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time, you know, let's be real, this is
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an oil change. Um and so it there
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there's a pragmatic nature to solving a
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non-discretionary problem that we're
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doing. So it's not about kind of talking
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for talking sake. It's about leveraging
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human truths to create rational actions
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in order to stimulate business growth.
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>> Okay, let's look back. I'm cur I think
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it's really interesting that a Harvard
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case was built on your LA on one of your
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big brands at Pearl Vision. Can you did
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you exercise these kinds of concepts in
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those campaigns too?
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>> 100%. I mean, you know, I care as a
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highly commoditized category and, you
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know, Pearl Vision started in 1961 by
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Stanley Pearl had really lost its way.
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You know, had really been building its
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comp growth based on buy one get one.
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And, you know, part of the analysis that
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the Harvard case study profiled is what
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was this brand going to do in order to,
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as I like to say now, move out of the
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friend zone. You know, we were trying to
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be everything to everybody before I
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joined that business. And the reality is
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is that for me in particular, I
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recognized that we needed to be an eye
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care first brand. Eye care first,
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glasses second. Glasses was what we
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sold. I care is what we delivered. And
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so in developing the pathway for Pearl,
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it was really about getting into that
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mindset. What did somebody want when
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they were trusting somebody, you know,
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with their eyes? And you know, trust for
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me and what we ended up doing at Pearl
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was all about small moments of care and
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connection. It wasn't huge grand
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gestures like BOGO or 50% off. It was
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about showing that again customers that
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were coming in were going to be treated
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a certain way, were going to be
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respected a certain way and navigated
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through the journey that they were a
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part of. We weren't selling them
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glasses. We were guiding them into their
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perfect pair.
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>> And so what kind of campaigns did you
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run when you were there? Like
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>> so our our our Cleo and Effie
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award-winning campaign really focused on
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this. We called it the small moments.
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thinking small in order to win big. Um,
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we did an award-winning platform with
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Billy Jean King, who not only is a
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cultural icon around the world, but also
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is is, you know, famous for the impact
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that corrective eyewear had on her life.
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It was showcasing how our doctors went
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beyond, you know, the the person and
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really went to the person behind the
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eyes, really tapped into what was the
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angst, the tension, um, the need base
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that we were delivering at Pearl Vision.
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And that really helped distinguish us
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not only in the category but also
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against brands that Slo Exotica also
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owned like Lens Crafters. Um and the
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results were phenomenal. I think most
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importantly our trust meter skyrocketed.
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Our comp growth strong, our appointment
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strong, but most importantly I think we
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regained our reason for being you know
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our raise on detra in a very
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commoditized category and delivered an
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incredible experience and didn't have to
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discount because of it. Yeah, that's
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that's a really good story. You
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mentioned your trust meter that that
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reminds me of a natural question here.
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So you get these ideas is move out of
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the friend zone, try to figure out the
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way to implement that personal human
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connection, but then you do have to make
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sure it's working. So what are the kinds
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of metrics that you what does that trust
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meter mean? I mean look the the ultimate
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metrics are you know sales you know
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ibida revenue um traffic you know but
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there are also soft metrics you know
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you're measuring um through a brand
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health tracker that I would suggest that
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every marketer implements into their
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business sentiment uneducated brand
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awareness educated brand awareness
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consideration intent um you're looking
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at your Google star scores which is a
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really good mirror to the face it may
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not be the actuality of what you're
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delivering but it's the reality and It's
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really important to be looking at that
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NPS scores and then honestly, you know,
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getting out from behind your computer
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screen and working in your stores. You
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know, the most powerful tool that a
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marketer has at their disposal are the
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frontline associates. And at Take Five
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in particular, our techs embody what our
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brand is on our best day. And so being
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able to go into the pit, see what that
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action is like, listen to the dialogue
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they're having with our customers, you
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get a sense of of what we stand for in
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living, breathing embodiment. By doing
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that, and my job is to bring that back,
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figure out how we can harness it and
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reflect it in our campaigns.
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>> You know, I have what I know you have to
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go, but I have one last question as
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you're talking about that because you're
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talking about very human things. um
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getting into the you know into the store
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or the retail environment talking your
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frontline people finding the human
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connection and everybody today is
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talking about generative AI and
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algorithms. Can you just make a last
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statement on how you think those two
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worlds come together?
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>> Yeah, I mean look um technology is an
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enablement of us to work hopefully
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smarter and faster. But if you take
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generative AI, chat GBT is really about
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inputs and it's going to give you a very
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aneseptic diagnosis. It lacks emotion.
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And our job is marketers is to really
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blend both art and science. I love what
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AI can do for us. It could allow us to
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test. It could allow us to iterate. It
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could provide a mirror up to your face.
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And that's not just in business, but if
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you've ever had to write a very
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challenging email, I highly suggest
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putting it into chat GBT to really help
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you understand what are you saying both
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factually and emotionally. Um, for us, I
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think it's a tool in the toolbox and you
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know, you've got to use it for good, not
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for evil. And it's it's job of marketers
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like myself um to really figure out how
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to activate these to allow us to work
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smarter and faster. Absolutely nothing
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nothing replaces getting out into the
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field. Um I worked as an Avon lady when
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I was at Avon. I worked in the in in
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Victoria Secrets. Um
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>> I worked as an optitian in Pearl Vision
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and you know even within my first four
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weeks I've been uh in the pit, you know,
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under the car. Um although my wife will
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still not let me touch the automobile
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that we have at home, at least I got a
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sense of what we do every day. And I
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think that is such an incredible
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hands-on reason to be
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excited about not only Take Five but
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excited about the businesses that you
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have the privilege to be a part of. You
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know, Billy Jean King likes to say
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pressure is a privilege. The pressure
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that I put on myself is really to
00:16:22
understand the business from the inside
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out and understand the consumer from
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heart and then mind and then wallet. Um,
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and that's what I'm in the process of
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doing right now. I
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>> just love this. I because everybody is
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talking about generative AI and you're
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digging deep into the importance of the
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human connection, the human experience
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and you're not negating the importance
00:16:42
of generative AI. You know, it's a tool
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like you said in the toolbox, but it's
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not the only thing. And I know you have
00:16:48
to run. So, let me just remind people of
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your book again, moving your brand out
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of the friend zone. And where can people
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go to find out what Clive what's
00:16:58
happening with Clive and what's
00:16:59
happening with Take Five Oil Change?
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>> Sure. I mean obviously um with the depth
00:17:04
and breath of Take Five, it's pretty
00:17:06
easy to find us. You can take a look at
00:17:08
take five.com. You can visit our
00:17:10
LinkedIn page um you know I would
00:17:13
imagine in the next 6 to 12 months you
00:17:15
will hear more about some of the
00:17:16
initiatives that we're taking on and
00:17:18
that um some ideas that I have that I'm
00:17:20
in the process of kind of working
00:17:21
through with the team. Um, I think the
00:17:23
most important thing about Take Five is
00:17:26
really that we are a challenger brand.
00:17:29
Um, and you know, we really are focusing
00:17:31
on delivering that incredible
00:17:32
experience. Every single car that comes
00:17:34
in is being treated as if they're the
00:17:36
only car that's coming in that day. And
00:17:37
that's a recipe for continued success in
00:17:40
any business model.
00:17:41
>> Yeah, that sounds great. Well, thank you
00:17:42
very much for taking some time out to
00:17:44
help us with this segment of our
00:17:46
program. Thanks a lot.
00:17:48
>> Thank you very much. I'm Barbara Khan
00:17:50
and this is Marketing Matters. Uh today
00:17:53
we had Doug Zarkin, the CMO of Take Five
00:17:56
Oil Change. Um that's all we have time
00:17:58
for today. Thank you all for listening.
00:18:00
We'll be back next week. Till then, this
00:18:03
has been Marketing Matters on the
00:18:05
Wharton Podcast Network.
00:18:07
[Music]
