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hi I'm Laura Huang and assistant
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professor in the management department
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here at the Wharton School I'm here
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today with Kelly Leonard and Tom you're
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in authors of yes and from the second
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city so I'm gonna start with you Kelly
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I'm gonna kind of ask this this book had
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me kind of laughing and cringing and
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taking notes all at the same time you
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know there are so many useful kind of
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tidbits in there and also some really
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humorous kind of anecdotes can you tell
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us a little bit about the motivations
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for writing this yeah I think if 15
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years ago you'd say Second City was
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going to put its name on a business book
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we would have been like you're insane
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but when Tom started with the company
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which is that's 16 years ago he brought
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with him a kind of a fresh light to the
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way Second City was working with clients
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and and really expand upon the business
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and so the collaboration here was
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interesting because I'm I've been at
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second city 26 years and so it's really
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staged meets business because tom has a
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business career and I'm a sort of a
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theater guy and what second city is all
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right we're a 56 year old theatre but
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what we really are is an innovation
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laboratory because over that 56 years we
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have had groups of people working
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together to create something out of
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nothing
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we are a content creator and we never
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stop and they keep doing in these groups
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and we're very very successful at it and
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a certain point you go that's got to be
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translatable look at all the famous
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people who've left from the stages to
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the screen it's not just I'd like to
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think it's my great eye for talent but
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it's not because I wasn't there when
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alan arkin started I was there when Tina
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Fey started but there's this long sort
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of tradition of building talent out of
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these groups to have success and then
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when we started taking it into
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businesses and having more and more
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success we kind of turned to each other
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there's like two three years ago and
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said yeah we're idiots if we don't write
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this book yeah absolutely I think for me
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business is an act of improvisation it's
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for all the planning and all the
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controls and all the governance and all
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the things we try to do to keep the
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variables down business doesn't
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cooperate you know the world is a great
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place and this improv toolkit that we
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talk about is really important it's
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never been more important than it is now
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so that was all part of the motivation
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for writing the book yeah and you hear
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so much about you know teaching students
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and
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business and and all of these kind of
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hard skills right accounting and models
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and that sort of thing what I was really
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struck by was kind of the way you were
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able to to put this framework around
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teaching these soft skills yeah right
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and so can you talk a little bit about
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these soft skills and and what is it
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about it that you're able to teach and
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how were you able to actually do that
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well it's funny you know I don't think
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in any part of my education everyone
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anyone ever taught me to listen and
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listening is kind of important turns out
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in fact it's vital especially the key
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chapters of your because people are
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practice it and when you improvise you
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do practice it you have to so there are
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specific exercises we offer in the book
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that that people can take home with them
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listening exercises but you got to put
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it into practice I mean I think everyone
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understands the need to go to a gym to
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work out your muscles but where do you
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go to work out your social skills and so
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improvisation is yoga for your social
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skills it puts you in a mindful present
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place where you're concentrating with
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eye contact of the person in front of
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you you're not thinking about before or
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about after and when you're operating
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yes and which is title of our book
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you're not saying no you are in
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agreement and affirming and you're
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building something with someone else and
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the way you feel after you do that
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especially after like a three-hour
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improv class is the best and so if we
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can bring that best self into our
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workplace everything gets better yeah
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and I we talked about the the soft
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skills that separate the stars from the
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also-ran in business it's how to listen
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how to read a room how to work
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collaboratively on teams how to respond
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to failure how to be nimble and agile
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and adaptive when the unexpected happens
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those are really foreign skills to many
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people you could have all the quant
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skills and you could have all the
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strategy skills and and all that other
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stuff and they're important skills to
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have make a mistake but unless you can
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work well with an ensemble and create
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something out of nothing
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and respond to the unexpected you're
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only going to go so far in business yeah
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I like that you kind of mentioned this
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ensemble nature right and and the two of
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you are in in a sense this ensemble that
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kind of created this this very comedic
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artistic work and a lot of it touches
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upon this innovation question that you
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you brought up have you seen innovation
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changing over time you've both been a
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part of this for a long time has that
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definition changed for you over time and
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can you talk a little bit about what
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innovation is meant in the past and what
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it means now yeah it had it has changed
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and luckily the the world has kind of
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come to us so if you think about what
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second city is good at we are good at
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short form content and interactive
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content we create the shows with our
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audience
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well welcome today that is the world
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completely in vogue in the thing oh and
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also our work is rooted in games so the
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idea of a gaming sort of mindset so all
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these things that are completely sort of
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taking over the innovation sphere are
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the stuff that we've been cooking and
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playing with for 56 years and we've only
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recently begun to codify it because
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we're a baby art format 56 that's you
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know and that's really American style
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improvisation really started with the
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compass players our predecessors so it's
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60 years ago so that's really changing
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than that I want to touch on what you
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talked about with ensembles because we a
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good point of this and Tom will
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elaborate but we don't use the word team
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we use the word ensemble and the late
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great Sheldon Patinkin one of our great
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mentors had a great phrase that you
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often hear the phrase you're only as
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good as your weakest member he changed
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it he said you're only as good as your
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ability to compensate for your weakest
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member so the onus goes back on the
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ensemble because at any given time one
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of us is going to be the weakest member
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and wouldn't you want someone else to
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kind of pick you up when you're that
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member yeah and a time back to your
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innovation question I think about you
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know because I spent 20 years on the
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other side of the desk I was the clients
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that we now serve before I came to
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Second City and and there's a million
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innovation methods with you know the
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registered trademark in the seven step
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process and all that so that's all fine
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that's great we think one of the
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greatest barriers to innovation period
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is this we talked about this this idea
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of respecting things but not revering
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things when you're so reverential about
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a product a company a leader a category
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you're not willing to see its failings
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you're not willing to see what's
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incomplete about it and so respect what
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you
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work with but ultimately don't hold it
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in such a reverence that you can't
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imagine it being something different so
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all the process in the world is only so
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good if you're willing to actually
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challenge the status quo in the first
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place I think that's such a great point
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one of the things I really loved from
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the book was when you talk about failure
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and how you know success is kind of the
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series of failures and successes also
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you know failure is embedded in in kind
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of in kind of success and and yet we
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live in a country that says no failure
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and we live in a world where business
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like you can't fail but the reality is
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we all fail every day and we're gonna
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fail and especially the people have
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success every success story right is
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rooted in these all these little
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failures so what we at Second City do is
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we have a failure methodology we have a
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failure format the to act scripted
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review that you pay your good money to
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see everyone's going to love and they
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laugh because we've tested it out the
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place we've tested it out is in the
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third act which is free it's late at
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night many people leave a lot of college
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kids line up to come see it that's our
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improv set that is our failure
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laboratory we try out material it
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doesn't work it's okay I didn't pay
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anything and and that is a failure model
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in the it's not just that we have this
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to test out with the audiences but for
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the employees in this case the actors
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they get to model failure they get to
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survive failure they get to fail and
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bring something back and so learning how
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to fail elegantly and learning how to
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incorporate failure into your daily
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activities so it doesn't beat you into
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the ground you know you're not gonna
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meet your sales goals are eaten in the
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ground it's like know that that happens
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this is a process and so we have that
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model so what we recommend for
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businesses is find your improv so places
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where you can fail fast and we can fail
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free of fear and you know not everyone
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has a stage but you can create things
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like a stage inside your business yeah
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you know so I work with a lot of
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early-stage startups right and this
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failure is kind of intrinsic in what
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they're doing so the question is also
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how do you know when you should continue
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pivoting on your failures or when you
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should kind of throw in the towel and
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say this is not working it's time to
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move on to something else let's try
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something new altogether yeah that's a
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tough one I mean and there's no stocking
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to that I think especially in a startup
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world a lot of other factors did you run
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out of money sometimes there are things
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outside of outside of your own control
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that kind of dictate where you need to
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go but I think for us we we are more
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resilient and we are more willing to go
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the next step and try it again and give
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it another shot so I think when you
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think you should bail try it another
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time or two and see what happens before
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you throw in the towel and if you create
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if you create in a model where you're
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yes handing at the start which every
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idea gets a little loved you have an
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abundance of ideas so that means the the
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failure can move much faster because you
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can throw away throw away throw away and
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no one is holding on the things in such
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a precious precious manner so really if
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you act out of yes and early create
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abundance then you might not have that
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problem you might get to the truth and
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the good idea more quickly I want to
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talk a little bit and just piggy an idea
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came in my mind was just saying that
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dishonesty in business and I don't mean
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like malicious intentional dishonesty I
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mean petty unintentional dishonesty and
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that is where you know where we refuse
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to acknowledge a failure where we all
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kind of walk past it and pretend it
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didn't happen and whitewash over it and
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still put the slogan up and you know we
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get together in the the All Hands
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meeting and clap but we're not really
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acknowledging what's broken and when
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companies do that when organizations do
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that it causes everyone else to check
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out because they know there's BS going
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on and there's a high cost to not being
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real and not being authentic so we talk
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about failure it's not like we are is
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kind of reply FLE saying yeah it's okay
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to fail we're a very high performance
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culture we have high standards and we
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don't like to fail any more than anyone
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else but we know that it's okay to talk
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about it we want to create conditions
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where people feel it's okay to be open
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about it because then they'll keep
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staying in the game they'll stay fully
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engaged and you're good to go yeah I
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think that's a great point it kind of
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reminds me of one of the examples you
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had in the book where about Superman
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yeah and can you tell us a little bit
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about you know that failure and how that
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failure turned into this immense success
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yeah so there's these classic scenes
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from the second city archives and one of
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them is the Superman scene and it was
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shortly after Christopher Reeve had
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fallen off the horse and was paralyzed
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tragic tragic situation and the cast
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really wanted
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create a scene around that and the idea
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they came up with was that they were set
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in a sort of cartoon world and there was
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an evil villain and then Superman came
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out but he was in a wheelchair and the
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response that the audience gave was
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groans if not worse
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Martin Short came to a preview and just
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yell no when he saw it it wasn't working
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and so the director took it out of the
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show the - the - actually I'll put it
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back in the improv set the place where
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we can fail and it's okay because it's
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late at night when we in trouble and was
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playing around with it still wasn't
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working and then finally came up with an
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idea of writing a song for Superman that
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he could sing about how he wished he
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could fly again and it was kind of a
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lovely bookend that when he put it back
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in the scripted show we still got that
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terrible groan but after he sang the
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song everyone's like oh I'm okay with it
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and it became this iconic well-reviewed
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classic scene the director was Mick
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Napier the actor was Richard Heller Eko
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and it would never have happened if we
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hadn't had this little failure module to
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fool around with it because we want a
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risk and we want to create content that
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is challenging and edgy but it doesn't
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work if everyone is upset they could be
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upset for a little bit but we want to
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bring them around again so a lot of our
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work is testing you know the edge and we
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talked about this in the book which is
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you know a lot of people are practicing
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comedy without a license you know we we
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have studied this stuff we have we've
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you know researched and modelled it and
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all that but everyone else thinks they
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know how to do comedy and that's why
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everyone gets in trouble on Twitter you
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know you got to understand your context
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and so being a part of the book is also
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talking about that for businesses is
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that if you want to use comedy there are
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kind of rules that you might not want to
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own another one you didn't want to use
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those in power using comedy to belittle
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those with less lesser status it doesn't
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go over so well punch down
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yeah don't punch down there's a few like
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that yeah I think that the practical
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exercises in the book really hit a lot
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of those concepts home so you know I
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personally really liked the string the
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pearls yeah one where you give one
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phrase and another phrase and the two
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are not connected and you have to get
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from one to the next do you guys have a
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favorite Tom do you have a favorite yeah
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we do a lot of work with listening
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skills and
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business because it is so unpracticed
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and an exercise that we cite in the book
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and we use very successfully something
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we call last word response where we
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instruct people at pair up talk about
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anything have a conversation doesn't
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matter what you're talking about
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the only stipulation is you have to use
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it when you respond to me you have to
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use the last word in my line as the
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first word in your response and you go
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and you have these conversations and
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sometimes they're funny and nonsensical
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and it doesn't much matter the point of
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that exercise is it's difficult to
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listen all the way through because we
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are generally taught in business
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critical thinkers are taught to listen
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to respond not to listen to understand
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and we draw that distinction we think
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it's really important to listen to fully
00:14:00
understand someone you might miss some
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information you might miss a meeting if
00:14:04
you check out halfway through what
00:14:05
they're saying so you can prepare a
00:14:07
response
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yeah and Kelly how about you yeah here's
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here's the thing I think people should
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do take one day and don't say no the
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entire day so even if you're in a
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situation where you have to say no you
00:14:19
have to find another way to get there it
00:14:22
will change your your view it will
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change how you feel it's hard it is not
00:14:28
easy I have done it and it is
00:14:29
problematic especially but it is
00:14:34
ultimately very rewarding because you
00:14:36
have put yourself out in a far more
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positive way and the other thing is you
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start to you know make that list of how
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many times you would have said no and
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it's a lot and you recognize that really
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out of the 25 times that I would have
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said no 23 of them I didn't need to and
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and and the people around you notice
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that notice it as well when we were
00:14:56
working on the book I would come in in
00:14:58
the morning early in Wright's like from
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8 a.m. to like 10 a.m. and my ensemble
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members my staff around me always said
00:15:06
they knew when I was working on the book
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because I was a much better leader and
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because I was modeling it I was putting
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in practice I was saying and I was
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writing it I was touching it and they
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were like it's remarkable like that we
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all know now we have this game to catch
00:15:16
you when you come out of a writing thing
00:15:18
because at that point we're gonna be
00:15:19
able to make things happen that's
00:15:20
interesting alright so one thing I'm
00:15:22
just curious about so Stephen Colbert
00:15:24
said that at least half this book is
00:15:27
going to be good because he knows one of
00:15:29
you so was he being facetious or does he
00:15:32
only know one of you
00:15:33
you notice him he doesn't know me what
00:15:35
are you gonna do yeah Stephen was in my
00:15:38
very first cast as a producer at Second
00:15:39
City
00:15:39
he was my wife's roommate in college we
00:15:42
got engaged at his rehearsal dinner he's
00:15:45
a great old friend and an amazing second
00:15:47
city success story and someone who so
00:15:49
embodies this work Tina Fey is another
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they both really believe in
00:15:55
improvisation and took it with them so
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Colbert if you look at his staff it's a
00:16:00
lot of second city people same with Tina
00:16:01
when she's on 30 rock and Kimmy Schmidt
00:16:03
I mean there's there's a lot of second
00:16:05
city people so it's one of the things
00:16:07
that's interesting about second city is
00:16:09
that we let talent go when we talked
00:16:11
earlier about ensembles in an ensemble
00:16:13
that's just fine because the ensemble is
00:16:16
always there sometimes when it's teams
00:16:17
like out the team falls apart it's like
00:16:19
no this is never falling apart and we've
00:16:20
never closed for 50 56 years that we've
00:16:23
never closed the show has just kept
00:16:24
going on and morphing into the next
00:16:26
second City Ensemble and that's why so
00:16:28
many people who are so proud of calling
00:16:30
themselves alumni of the second city
00:16:31
know that's every rare group that
00:16:33
they're a part of but my mom liked the
00:16:35
part I wrote so she liked half of it as
00:16:39
well she sounds mom Colbert you know
00:16:41
yeah well thank you so much Tom and
00:16:44
Kelly for being here I just such an
00:16:46
fascinating glimpse into the world of
00:16:48
improv and the the lessons that we can
00:16:50
take from that into the business world
00:16:52
so thanks again thank you
00:17:10
you
