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[Music]
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Kiwis love a first
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like Finn. We're making waves.
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[Music]
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Generate switch online today.
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Dylan Belchure, welcome to my podcast.
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Great to be here, mate. This is the
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first time we've met in real life, but
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I'm I'm so excited. I feel like I know
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you. I said the same to you. I feel like
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I know you too. Yeah, it's crazy. But uh
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yeah, great to meet you um in person. Um
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and excited to be on the show. Yeah. And
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your hair is still you're 49 now. You
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turn 50 later this year. Your hair is
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still fabulous. Oh, trying to trying to
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keep it trying to while I've still got
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it. It's going It feels like it's going
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a little bit backwards here, but while
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I've got it, let's uh let's enjoy it.
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Yeah. Cuz the hair was all always part
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of your thing. You were sort of like um
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New Zealand's David Beckham, I guess. I
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had a uh it was funny story. I had a um
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friend that was a hairdresser and uh you
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know she always used to cut my hair and
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always used to be like, "Oh, do you want
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to try this?" I go, "Yeah, why not?"
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Yeah. Like so I was always open to
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experimenting in hairstyles and and
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colors and all sorts. Yeah. The um the
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the the hair band, the very feminine
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hair band that was controversial, right?
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Oh, it was very controversial when you
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went to places like Perth and Townsville
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and played. They they used to enjoy
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saying what they thought of you up in
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those places. But um yeah, it was very
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controversial. Very practical though for
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for keeping hair out of your eyes. I can
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tell you that. Good. Why like basketball
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was your was your thing. Why didn't you
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just like, you know, get a sensible
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haircut? Well, it's funny cuz it's my my
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game wasn't didn't stand out enough on
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its own. So, you needed something else
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to stand out for selectors. So, when you
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were going to be on a court, you want to
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be able to be noticed. And my game
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wasn't good enough to be noticed. So,
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you needed something else. So, why not
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have a have a hairstyle that no one else
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has got? Yeah. Hey, so quick bio. Um
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Dylan Boucher uh holds the record for
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the most New Zealand NBL titles won at
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nine. Um foundation member of the
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Breakers. Three NBL titles in a row
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between 2011 and 2013. That's a dynasty,
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right? That's what you call a dynasty.
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Over 100 tests for the Tour Blacks. Mhm.
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Um in that um unforgettable 2002 World
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Champs where New Zealand finished
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fourth. Um Yeah. Yeah. You reflect on
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your career. It's it's crazy, right? The
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achievements. Yeah, I mean you when you
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read them all out at once they you know
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there's a lot of achievements there. I
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did play for a long time so it was it
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was easy to get those achievements but
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um well it wasn't easy to get those
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achievements but I was really fortunate
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enough to play for some really good
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teams um had some amazing teammates um
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amazing coaches administrators that that
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helped us you know um have success. But
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certainly uh was an enjoy enjoyable part
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of my life for sure. Um having those
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successes and um you know a lot of lot
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of hard work went in behind it. But um
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nevertheless it was uh when you're
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cutting down those nets um there's
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nothing better.
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Yeah. It feels like um I don't know like
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a golden era of New Zealand basketball
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that you were involved with. Would that
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would that be fair to say or is that is
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that just a couple of old men sitting
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back reflecting? Well, of course I'm
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going to say it was a golden era but um
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no in all seriousness I think it was a
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golden era. We had a had a group of guys
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that stayed together for a long time.
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Um, and you know, I think a lot of the
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young guys coming through now saw that
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group playing and and and you know, they
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wanted to be like them and they wanted
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to be able to they want to play
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basketball at the highest level and you
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know, I think that group was again
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special group and you look at most of
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them that have been involved in those
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teams going forward, they're either in
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coaching roles now, high level coaching
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roles or administration roles um or
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doing things at a high level. So, it's a
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pretty special group. M and you've made
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a transition really successfully into um
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into the admin side of basketball.
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You've been the CEO of um Basketball New
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Zealand and at the time we're recording
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this, you've just landed a new job which
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you haven't started yet as president of
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the Breakers. Yeah. Yeah. Damn, that's
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that's a hell of a title. What does it
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mean exactly? So, it's president of
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basketball operations. So, for me, it's
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basically, you know, taking taking care
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of everything on the basketball side of
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uh of the B&Z Breakers. And for us, for
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me that's like recruiting the team uh
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with the coaches, recruiting the
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coaches, making sure that your high
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performance side of the business is is
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per is functioning and then making sure
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that your development is leading into
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your performance um side of things. So,
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it's exciting. That's the that's the
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area I love uh the most when I think
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about um you know, when I'm finished
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playing, what are the areas I love?
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Those are the areas I love is being able
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to be involved with the high performance
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team. um but maybe not so much in a in a
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capacity of like coaching or training or
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anything like that, but in the
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recruiting and those sorts of things and
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and working with the coaches to to
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figure out who you going to put on the
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roster uh to be to be successful at the
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end of the day. So, does it scratch a
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niche for you? Is there still a niche
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there like in terms of it puts you close
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enough to the court and close close
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enough to the players? Yeah, there's
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100% still a niche there. And it's funny
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when I finished playing there was a
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couple of routes you could you can
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usually go down. One is coaching and one
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is the administration side of things.
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And to be honest, to be bluntly honest,
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my heart is in coaching. I really wanted
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to be a coach. Um, and cuz you you
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dabbled, eh, you were assistant coach
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with the Tall Blacks. Correct. Yeah. As
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assistant coach for three years with the
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Tall Blacks and kind of thought, is that
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my avenue? But the reality, as we kind
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of spoke off air, there's there's one
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job uh as the head coach of the Breakers
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that pays enough to be a full-time coach
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in this country. And it's so if you want
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to get coaching jobs, you have to go
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outside of New Zealand. I had four
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children at the time and I was I still
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have four children but had four young
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children at the time and I was like I'm
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not about to chase jobs around the world
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coaching um and and quite a few of my
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teammates didn't have had success doing
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it. Um so I went down the administration
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route but um to your point I think I
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still scratch that itch that I have um
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in this role of president of basketball
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operations. I still get to scratch that
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itch on a daily basis which is uh which
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is far more enjoyable for me. Um would I
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like to be coaching one day? Absolutely.
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Am I going to be coaching one day? Don't
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know. Probably not. Um but I still get
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to scratch that itch every day. Yeah.
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When was the last time you you got
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amongst it? Like when when do you handle
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a ball? So socially last night. You
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probably saw me walking a bit gingerely
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today, but socially not very well these
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days. But I still I still I still enjoy
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the competitiveness of basketball and I
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still enjoy the camaraderie of being
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with your mates and competing out there
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on the floor. So that stuff still is
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enjoyable to me. Um and then for um
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since I've um started this uh role at
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the at the Benz Breakers, we are uh
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fully immersed in recruiting players and
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so forth now. So right now I'm getting
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that itch scratched fully. Um and we've
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just we've just completed our New
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Zealand players uh or our local players
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on our roster and now we'll be trying to
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recruit three imports to be able to
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complement those players. Hey, by the
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way, something I've noticed um you're
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going to be great at this president
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role. I've noticed um every time you say
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the breakers, you do say BNZ first.
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Absolutely. Well trained, huh? Yeah.
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Fantastic. Do Have you got like a pool
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room at home or a shrine or anything? I
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don't. Um I've got a couple of boxes of
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all my singlets and, you know,
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memorabilia over the years. And I've
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always said one day when I have a pool
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room, I'll get them out and I'll frame
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them up and I'll I'll do that. I've got
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a couple of frame jerseys at home, but
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they literally just sit in the corner of
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a garage. We've recently renovated and
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they just a couple have gone up on the
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wall. A couple of the championship
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photos have gone up on the wall in the
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garage, but um no, I don't. I'm actually
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I actually don't like people when I when
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people come over I like them to come
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over because of me. I don't want them to
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have to look at a wall and see, you
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know, photos of me holding a
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championship trophy or something up, you
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know? I just want to be me. Um, so
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they're in the garage, but I one day I
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would like to have a pool room that has
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a, you know, has a you a few pictures
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and and and singlets like that are from
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Olympics or World Cups and things like
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that. Unreal. Yeah, that'd be a hell of
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a man cave cuz Yeah. What else is there?
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you you do you get rings like actual
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rings when you win a a championship? So,
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we have got rings. There has been rings
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in the past. They're generally not as um
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glamorous as the NBA ones cuz those are
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man those are amazing. Um and um but we
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we have got I've got a few rings. Um
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main the main piece of memorabilia that
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you keep is the a piece of the net. So,
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you cut down the net and you generally
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cut a bit off for yourself and put it in
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your pocket or whatever and that's your
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kind of that's your memory of that
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championship knowing that you cut that
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piece of net down. Yeah. So, sounds
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sounds very probably pathetic to the the
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average punter, but everyone wants to
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cut a net down when you play basketball.
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That's the ultimate. When you finish the
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season, you get to cut the net down at
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the end of the end of the season. Where
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do you get the the the implement from?
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So, they they're always ready. When
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you're ready, they've got a ladder and
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they've got a pair of scissors. So, when
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you win and there's there's key things,
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usually it's a ladder, a pair of
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scissors, um champagne. Uh these days
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it's goggles so you don't get the
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champagne in your eyes. We learned the
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hard way in the in the old days. But
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those are kind of the key things when
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you when you're and cigars is probably
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the other one. Um, and again, you have
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one puff of a cigar and you just want to
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throw it out anyway cuz it's I don't
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know where that tradition came from. I
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actually think it was Michael Jordan who
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was the first one to smoke a cigar in
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the changing room. So, that seemed to be
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a tradition, which is not one I'm a big
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fan of to be honest. I feel like Jordan
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could have potentially been smoking
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cigars pregame as well. Oh, he probably
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was 100%. Are you um are you like a a
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Jordan fanatic? I'm a Jordan fan. I grew
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up on Jordan. Um and um you know the
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debate's always Jordan or LeBron James.
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Um for me it's for me LeBron James is
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the single greatest you know like talent
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most talented basketball player. He's 40
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something years old and he's still
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performing at an NBA level which is
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phenomenal. Um Michael Jordan for me
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will always be the GOAT just purely
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because that's what I grew up on. That's
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the reason I picked up a basketball
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because I watched his come fly with me
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VHS um videos and you know that was what
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made me want to pick up a basketball and
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start playing. Did you um yeah when you
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were playing there's so much um
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knowledge and info about Jordan now like
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the last dance documentary on Netflix
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was phenomenal when you were playing and
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you know when or before you were playing
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and you you were a fan of Jordan. Did
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you know what an [ __ ] he was or No.
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No. It's because you don't you never saw
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that till later. It's probably not till
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he retired you found that stuff out. And
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again things weren't as accessible back
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then as what they are now, right? You
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can't get away with being an [ __ ] now
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like cuz you'll get found out because
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there's cameras everywhere. Whereas in
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those days it was like the cameras would
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be on the games but they wouldn't
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capture anything off court and so I
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think that's the that's the uniqueness
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about Jordan is he still has the stigma
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about him because of people all they
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want to remember is the good stuff about
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him.
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Yeah. How would teammates describe you
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like what what were you like? Um cuz I
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mean yeah like like giving Jordan a like
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a a bit of a pass like he was just super
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competitive and it must have been
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frustrating for him having teammates
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that couldn't necessarily like rise to
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his level. Um, but yeah, it did sound
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like it was very difficult to be a
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teammate with. Absolutely. Absolutely.
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Uh, what would my teammates say about
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me? I think they think I'm a good
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teammate. I think, um, you know, for me,
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I needed my teammates to be successful.
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Um, I wasn't like Jordan. I couldn't
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just do things on my own. I didn't have
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that skill and I didn't have that
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ability. So, on my I guess my whole MO
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on a basketball court was to get the
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right people the ball at the right times
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and be able to make the right reads. And
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so, for me, I made a living of trying to
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make everyone around me better players.
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and um you know in some of the success
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that we had, you might not see my name
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up in lights or in the in the paper the
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next day, but I know that the role I
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played was crucial in in us being able
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to be successful. So I think my
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teammates, especially those ones that I
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pass the ball a lot, would probably say
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I'm a good teammate. Um but I'm a
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competitor, too. Like don't get me
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wrong, like I back myself to be able to
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guard anybody on the court and shut them
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down. That was what that was again what
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part of my MO was. I wanted to be the
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known as the guy who could put me on the
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best best player on the court and I'll
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shut them down. I might not shut him
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down every time, but I'm going to make
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his life pretty difficult and he's going
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to be more worried about me than he is
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about worrying about the game. So, for
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me, that was that was kind of how I
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wanted to. And then that would take the
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pressure off my teammates. They would
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have to just worry about their person
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they were marking wouldn't have to be
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helping me and things like that. So, I
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would hope they say I was a good
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teammate. Um I have really strong
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relationships still with with guys that
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I've played with over the years. So, I
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think um that's probably a testament to,
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you know, what they thought of you on
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the court. 100%. Yeah. Yeah. you you in
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like a WhatsApp group or a Facebook
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group? Yeah, we've got a few of them.
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Yeah, a few little groups. Yeah,
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absolutely. If you ask about players
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that I never played with, they'd
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probably think I was an [ __ ] Um, but
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that's that's the highest honor, right?
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Yeah, it is 100%. Like if I I always
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used to say to players, if you're being
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booed in an opposition's gym, you've
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done something to annoy them, which
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probably means you've done something
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well that stopped their team being
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successful. So, don't be afraid of the
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booze. Encourage them, you know, like
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actually embrace them. So, yeah, it's a
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it's almost the ultimate compliment as a
00:12:27
player. Yeah. Well, there's this photo
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here which is iconic. Um, yeah. What's
00:12:32
the story behind that photo? Funnily
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enough, so um, Mark, that's Mark
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Worththington play. There was a test
00:12:37
match against Australia. Um, funnily
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enough, it was um, it was actually a bit
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premeditated that one to be honest. So,
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we actually went to a Berslo Cup match
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before this game and uh, first time I
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met Mark, he was first time playing for
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the Boomers and he said, "Oh, I'm really
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excited to face the Hucker." He said,
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"Okay." Yeah. Then I said, "All right,
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well the next I think we were playing
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the next day and I was like, "Tomorrow I
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got something special for you in the
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hucker." So that was a photo taken at
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the end of the hucker where we were face
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to face. So back in those days, we used
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to advance doing the hucker. And we
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would often be, especially Australia,
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they'd line up on the halfway line. And
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the rule was with FEA is you can't cross
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the halfway line. So Australia would
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line up right on the halfway line,
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whereas most teams line up on the their
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own free throw line, so a long way away.
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They line up on the halfway line. So we
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would start on our free throw line and
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advance to the to the halfway line. and
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we I happened to line up perfectly in
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front of Mark Worthington and and I knew
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that he was excited to see the hucker
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for the first time. And so yeah, so that
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was the photo captured right at the end
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of the hucker. Um but again, we've uh we
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became good friends after that. Uh we
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competed, don't get me wrong, we
00:13:39
competed hard against each other on the
00:13:41
court. We went at it and you know those
00:13:42
those matches against Australia were
00:13:44
brutal, but but we could have a beer
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after the game and have a laugh about
00:13:48
you know what went on in the game and
00:13:49
there was nothing no there was no ill
00:13:51
intent in any of the behavior. It was
00:13:52
just good, hard, um, aggressive
00:13:54
basketball being played. That's such a
00:13:56
cool backstory. So, there's no bad blood
00:13:58
there or No bad blood at all. No, but
00:14:00
just giving him an experience.
00:14:01
Absolutely. And to an average fan, they
00:14:03
probably thought there was massive bad
00:14:04
blood. And when you'd watch us play,
00:14:05
you'd probably think we didn't like each
00:14:07
other, but then they didn't know behind
00:14:08
closed doors, we're having a beer after
00:14:10
the game, you know, laughing about it
00:14:11
and, you know, now we, you know, we
00:14:12
still, you know, we still, if we see
00:14:14
each other, we'd cross the street to say
00:14:15
good day to each other. Were you
00:14:17
surprised or chuffed at the time with um
00:14:19
how that photo sort of blew up and how
00:14:21
it sort of, you know, developed a legend
00:14:23
all on its own? Well, again, like I said
00:14:25
to you before, my game my game never
00:14:27
really put me in the headlines. It's
00:14:28
normally the other things that put me in
00:14:30
the headlines. That was another classic
00:14:31
example where I think people just saw a
00:14:33
picture and read more into it than what
00:14:35
there was. So again, I never used to
00:14:37
correct anyone on it. I just run with it
00:14:39
because for me it's like if people are
00:14:40
again engaged in basketball, that's a
00:14:42
good thing. Oh yeah. Yeah. We'll get
00:14:44
into that. I'm keen to like drill into
00:14:45
the um yeah the break overseas which
00:14:48
must have been really tough. So you had
00:14:49
a year in Perth and then a year in
00:14:50
Brisbane. Um but yeah, as you've
00:14:52
mentioned, you're a family man. So you
00:14:53
went over there and did that without
00:14:54
your family. So you're playing for a
00:14:57
team that you don't love as much as the
00:14:58
team you really want to be in and you're
00:14:59
away from your family and there's a
00:15:01
whole dynamic. We'll get into that. But
00:15:03
first of all, I want to go all the way
00:15:04
back. Yeah. So um yeah, Bell Tanaki.
00:15:08
Yep. Uh which is a place that nobody
00:15:09
knows. But what are you what are your
00:15:12
earliest memories of basketball? So for
00:15:14
me I was at Bel Primary School. Um I was
00:15:18
must have been uh cuz I went to form two
00:15:21
or or year eight in those days. Uh I
00:15:23
think I was no it must have been
00:15:25
younger. It must have been like standard
00:15:26
four which is what's that year four year
00:15:29
year four year no year six sorry year
00:15:31
six sorry. Um and my older brothers were
00:15:34
playing for the school intermediate team
00:15:36
and they were shorter players one day.
00:15:38
So I jumped on the court and and played.
00:15:40
We had a hoop at home so I was used to
00:15:41
shooting hoops with my brothers. got two
00:15:43
older brothers. Um, and and the backyard
00:15:46
battles were brutal. We played on gravel
00:15:48
and you'd often go inside crying because
00:15:50
your brother had knocked you over and
00:15:51
you'd grazed your knee on the and on the
00:15:54
on the gravel and we were and the the
00:15:56
hoop was on a garage hard on a garage.
00:15:58
So when you did a layup, you hit the
00:16:00
garage and it wasn't it wasn't these
00:16:02
days like a nice versatile garage door.
00:16:04
It was like a brick, you know, like it
00:16:06
wasn't the garage door. was the side of
00:16:07
the garage which was made out of block
00:16:09
bricks with a ledge sticking out with a
00:16:10
window and it was it was brutal. So if
00:16:12
you went in and and your brother was
00:16:14
chasing you, bumped you into the wall,
00:16:15
you got nailed, you know, but you might
00:16:16
have made the shot and I truly believe
00:16:19
that's the aggressive style we used to
00:16:21
play in the backyard is why I played the
00:16:22
way I played cuz I wasn't afraid of
00:16:24
being physical. Again, most New Zealand
00:16:26
kids grow up playing rugby and so forth
00:16:28
and you know like so tackling and stuff
00:16:30
is just part of what we do. It's part of
00:16:31
our DNA. So being being physical on the
00:16:33
basketball court that that's been
00:16:35
happening since I was like 5 years old.
00:16:37
Uh but yeah, I got to step on the court
00:16:38
with my older brother's team and and got
00:16:40
to play a little bit and fell in love
00:16:42
with it and again just started playing
00:16:44
for the school team and there just fell
00:16:46
in love slowly over and the other sport
00:16:48
slowly died away. I played every sport
00:16:51
growing up. um was right into BMX racing
00:16:53
when I was growing up and um basketball
00:16:56
kind of yeah was just a sport that
00:16:58
slowly took over and I really wanted to
00:17:00
do it and play it well. Yes. So your um
00:17:03
your older brothers, one was uh two is
00:17:05
two years older than you and one's four
00:17:06
years older than you. I don't have any
00:17:08
actual feedback on this but um I've done
00:17:09
over like 200 of these podcasts and a
00:17:11
lot of them with like real successful
00:17:13
New Zealanders and and I reckon like
00:17:15
having um older siblings, brothers in
00:17:17
particular, is a great predictor of
00:17:19
success. Like it toughens you up, right?
00:17:21
Oh man. Toughest opponents you'll ever
00:17:22
have and they show no mercy. No mercy.
00:17:24
No mercy. And still don't, you know,
00:17:25
like it's if you still speak to my older
00:17:27
brother, he'll probably tell you he can
00:17:28
beat me in basketball, you know, like
00:17:30
it's again, it's that um when you're the
00:17:32
youngest, you you you're going to take
00:17:34
your beatdowns, you know, and you've got
00:17:35
a choice. You can either run inside to
00:17:36
mom and tell them or you can stand up
00:17:38
for yourself. And most times than not,
00:17:40
I'd run inside and tell them tell on
00:17:41
them with mom. Um but then over time, I
00:17:45
slowly was like, you know, because mom
00:17:46
would just go, "Oh, let's just stay
00:17:48
inside then." And I didn't want to stay
00:17:49
inside. So, I'd go back out into the
00:17:52
cauldron again and I'd go back out there
00:17:53
knowing I was going to get beat down.
00:17:55
But that again toughens you up and it
00:17:57
just makes you be able to be strong as a
00:18:00
as a person and as a player. Well,
00:18:02
there's that 10,000 hour theory. Are you
00:18:03
familiar with that from Malcolm Glad?
00:18:05
Yeah. Like you you you were cutting your
00:18:06
teeth with some very very um you know,
00:18:10
intimidating opponents. Yeah,
00:18:11
absolutely. And and to be fair, I've um
00:18:14
there's not many games I've gone on the
00:18:16
court fearing my opponents in a in a in
00:18:19
a physical fearing. There's some big
00:18:20
dudes we've played against too that
00:18:21
you're kind of like you're a little bit
00:18:22
like, damn, you're huge. But um but I've
00:18:25
never feared anyone and I've never again
00:18:27
been scared of physicality on a court
00:18:29
and um and I think that truly is the
00:18:31
upbringing. Did you Did you Side note,
00:18:34
did your house have broken windows all
00:18:35
the time? We had we had broken
00:18:37
everything. There was everything got
00:18:38
broken again cuz we played everything
00:18:40
and we were racing motorbikes and BMX
00:18:42
bikes around the house and like it was
00:18:44
Yeah. It was crazy.
00:18:46
Yeah. I've got um a younger brother and
00:18:48
we were playing cricket on the the
00:18:49
driveway all the time. Windows were
00:18:51
different back then. They were like
00:18:52
really really thin. Really thin. Yeah.
00:18:53
Yeah. If you hit it with a tennis ball
00:18:54
was going to break. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, the
00:18:56
BMX thing. You've mentioned that a
00:18:57
couple of times. Um Yeah. This is a fun
00:18:59
fact that I discovered. So you you bet
00:19:01
Kos Spencer in a BMX race. Oh, we we
00:19:04
raced against each other. I don't even
00:19:06
know who won to be honest, but um you
00:19:08
know like I and again I didn't know I
00:19:10
only remember the name and he had an
00:19:12
older brother as well that raced against
00:19:13
my brother and so the name Yeah, Fabian.
00:19:15
Yeah. So um we knew the knew the name
00:19:17
and so when he became a rugby player I
00:19:18
was like oh I'm pretty sure I used to
00:19:20
race BMX against that guy and I remember
00:19:22
him because he was a huge kid. Like he
00:19:24
was way bigger than me as a kid and if
00:19:26
we stood next to each other now I'm sure
00:19:28
I'm way bigger than him. But yeah, we
00:19:30
when he was a kid, he was a big strong
00:19:32
rider and I was like a little skinny
00:19:35
like scrawny rider that was pretty good
00:19:38
at tactics and stuff, whereas he was a
00:19:39
you know, he was a power rider. So when
00:19:41
if you got caught on a straight with
00:19:42
him, you were never going to win. He was
00:19:43
going to be too powerful for you. So
00:19:45
yeah, I remember um I remember I don't
00:19:47
remember exactly racing against him, but
00:19:49
I remember you know the name and and
00:19:51
having races against him. And he was a
00:19:52
good rider, too. Since it was unlikely
00:19:55
that anyone was there with a handicam,
00:19:56
we're going to we're going to say it
00:19:57
now. You won. Let's just say that then.
00:19:59
You bet. And that's when that's when his
00:20:01
BMX dream was crushed and he turned to
00:20:02
rugby. Turn to rugby. So all black fans
00:20:04
can thank me for that. So So back then
00:20:06
in the bell block days and like what was
00:20:08
your um awareness or relationship with
00:20:11
the NBA? Like did you did you get the
00:20:13
occasional VHS tape from a friend in the
00:20:16
States or did you have any access to
00:20:18
American sport? Not much. um dad somehow
00:20:20
would always have connections all over
00:20:23
the place and we'd get sent um VHS tapes
00:20:26
but they were always so we even they
00:20:28
were NTSC I don't know if you remember
00:20:29
back in the day so there was power which
00:20:31
was New Zealand and NTSC which was
00:20:33
American so your average VHS player in
00:20:35
New Zealand couldn't play these tapes so
00:20:37
we had to buy a dual player to be able
00:20:40
to actually play these tapes that we get
00:20:41
from the US and so dad would dad's
00:20:43
friends would send him these VHS tapes
00:20:46
and uh and Sports Illustrated magazines
00:20:48
over and so That's where we started
00:20:50
watching these games and and started
00:20:52
watching there was no internet back in
00:20:54
those days. So, we were fortunate enough
00:20:55
to be able to get these videotapes and
00:20:57
watch them and we'd we'd watch and I can
00:20:59
remember clearly going outside my
00:21:00
brothers and we'd try and practice the
00:21:01
moves that Michael Jordan was doing, you
00:21:03
know, and we'd go we'd spend hours out
00:21:04
there and who can do it better and, you
00:21:06
know, like it would go on like that for
00:21:08
for hours and hours. So that's how
00:21:10
that's kind of how we, you know, started
00:21:12
falling in love with the game cuz again,
00:21:14
if you practice the 10,000 hours that
00:21:15
you're talking, if you practice enough,
00:21:16
you start being able to actually emulate
00:21:18
these moves and you're going, "Oh, I can
00:21:19
actually do it now." And then the more
00:21:21
you do it, the better you get at it and
00:21:23
then you can make it on a consistent
00:21:24
basis and then you add it to the rest of
00:21:26
your game and you know, so that's that's
00:21:27
kind of what we used to do. Yeah. God,
00:21:30
we were raised on a diet of delayed
00:21:32
gratification. Eh, we used to we
00:21:34
remember we used to have to go to the
00:21:35
encyclopedias if we wanted to know
00:21:36
anything. Brutal. Yeah. We had funk and
00:21:39
Wagner ones which you mom used to buy
00:21:41
like one each week at the supermarket
00:21:42
until we had the whole set. That's it.
00:21:44
Yeah. That was all the that was the
00:21:45
access to all the information you had.
00:21:47
Absolutely. Whatever was in those books
00:21:49
and your um your you you you were a four
00:21:51
square kid. So your parents um had like
00:21:53
a super man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What was
00:21:57
it? I would have thought that would have
00:21:58
been my dream as a kid to have parents
00:21:59
that had a dairy. Absolutely. So we had
00:22:02
uh so we had the local uh Foursquare was
00:22:04
kind of like a super red I guess you'd
00:22:06
call it these days. um on the main
00:22:08
strip. Then eventually they bought a
00:22:09
bigger supermarket that was that was
00:22:11
down down the road a little bit. But
00:22:13
I've got scars from um from opening a
00:22:15
box with a Stanley knife when I was a
00:22:17
kid. We used to we used to have to work
00:22:18
in the shop after school. So because
00:22:20
we'd either we mom and dad were both
00:22:22
working in the shop, so it was down the
00:22:24
road from the school was a was a
00:22:25
2-minute walk to the dairy or to the
00:22:27
superet. So we would go in there and
00:22:28
we'd work for pocket money after. Um my
00:22:31
parents were both very big on you have
00:22:32
to work, you have to be able to work to
00:22:34
be able to earn money. And I think
00:22:35
they've instilled in me and my brothers
00:22:37
that, you know, we're all we're all hard
00:22:39
workers. We all don't mind working hours
00:22:41
and and putting those hours in. I truly
00:22:43
believe that's because we've done it
00:22:44
from a young age and we don't think
00:22:45
anything of working and working, you
00:22:48
know, past 5:00 or anything. That was
00:22:49
just normal. Um, and so again, we'd go
00:22:52
and work in the supermarket, earn our
00:22:53
pocket money, and then when mom would
00:22:55
take us home to cook dinner and and have
00:22:57
dinner, and dad would stay till closing,
00:22:58
and then dad would come home when the
00:23:00
shop closed. And like I say, the best
00:23:02
time was actually this time of the year
00:23:03
was Easter because um when Easter eggs
00:23:06
got broken, they would get credited by
00:23:09
the uh by the company that gave them to
00:23:11
you, but leave the Easter egg there. So,
00:23:12
we would purposely break Easter eggs so
00:23:15
they would get credited knowing that we
00:23:16
were going to be out the back eating
00:23:17
these Easter eggs. And we were pretty
00:23:20
mischievous back in the day. and and and
00:23:22
um our parents would let us we had a we
00:23:24
were allowed um whatever we wanted from
00:23:26
the supermarket but we had to write it
00:23:28
in the credit book because they had to
00:23:30
you know know that that's gone off the
00:23:31
shelf so they could see what you'd had
00:23:34
right so we would go and get whatever
00:23:36
after school and we'd write it in the
00:23:38
book and then we'd get home and mom
00:23:39
would grill us told you you're not
00:23:40
allowed that many lollies or you're not
00:23:42
allowed this you're not allowed that you
00:23:43
know so we're very fortunate again to be
00:23:45
able to have access to a supermarket as
00:23:47
kids but um again I think you know the
00:23:51
the lessons you learned were were pretty
00:23:53
important. You know, you worked hard,
00:23:54
you got pocket money, and then you were
00:23:55
able to get stuff from the shop. So,
00:23:57
yeah, it's foundational stuff, right?
00:23:58
Absolutely. And did you we did you have
00:24:00
like a house on the back of it or was
00:24:02
your house No, originally they did, but
00:24:03
we ended up we were we lived about
00:24:05
probably about a uh about a 7 minute
00:24:07
ride up the road in in a car and we used
00:24:09
to often bike to and from home. Um we
00:24:12
kind of lived rurally. Um, so we lived
00:24:14
up kind of where people farm and stuff
00:24:16
and a nice big house there and um, yeah,
00:24:18
had a really good uh, really good
00:24:20
childhood cuz we had land and stuff and
00:24:21
and a big area um, and a big house as
00:24:23
well. Um, so yeah, it was kind of
00:24:26
started with the house behind the shop
00:24:27
and then moved to a bigger house after
00:24:29
that. Were you tall then? Were you good
00:24:31
for stocking the the top shelves? No. So
00:24:33
I was I wasn't I was kind of always been
00:24:35
tallish but I kind of had probably my
00:24:37
growth burden around that 16 17 years
00:24:39
old kind of that 67 form time um or year
00:24:42
12 13. So that was kind of where I grew
00:24:44
over that sort of summer break and I
00:24:46
came back to school and everyone was
00:24:47
like oh you've grown heaps taller and my
00:24:49
brothers are only 6' and 6'2 so you know
00:24:51
my dad's about 6'3 6'4 um so my brothers
00:24:55
are not short but they're a lot shorter
00:24:57
than what I am and I'm 6'5 so I kind of
00:24:59
got the height in the family I think.
00:25:00
Yeah. And you guys moved to Oakland when
00:25:02
you were 14. Your parents had a motel
00:25:04
business in South Oakland. That's right.
00:25:05
Yeah. Yeah. Um Yeah. That must have
00:25:08
sucked balls. So you're 14. Your
00:25:10
brother's 16 and 18. Um Yeah. It's a
00:25:13
time of your life where you've, you
00:25:14
know, you've got your school connections
00:25:16
and you've got your roots firmly planted
00:25:17
and no kid wants to go to a new school
00:25:19
at that age. Not to Oakland when you're
00:25:21
from out of Oakuckland, right? Everyone
00:25:22
looks at Oakland goes, "Oh, who would
00:25:23
want to live in Oakuckland?" Um and you
00:25:25
know for us you know moved into Papa Toy
00:25:28
and massive culture shock you know
00:25:30
coming from a small little you know
00:25:32
country kind of town in New Plymouth and
00:25:34
you move into South Oakland into Papa
00:25:36
Toy and you know like for me it was I
00:25:39
always tell the story me and my um older
00:25:42
brother we had mullets. You know it was
00:25:43
back as when it was cool to have a
00:25:44
mullet. It was back cool again now I
00:25:46
guess. But but no one in Oakuckland had
00:25:48
mullets. They were already into the
00:25:49
fades. So, we got to school and there's
00:25:51
these two country bumpkins walking into
00:25:53
school with these mullets. And I can
00:25:55
remember coming home our first day of
00:25:56
school and I said to mom, "Oh, can we
00:25:57
just go to the hairdresser? I want to
00:25:58
have a haircut." Cuz I just didn't want
00:26:00
to look different. It was bad enough,
00:26:02
hard enough, trying to fit in um with
00:26:04
new friends and and things like that.
00:26:05
But you didn't want to look different.
00:26:07
Um so, yeah, we got haircuts and came
00:26:09
back to school the next day. But the
00:26:10
best thing about, you know, about when
00:26:13
you move into a new school, sport is the
00:26:15
one thing that can build your
00:26:16
friendships. And for us, we love sport.
00:26:18
So we joined the sports teams and we
00:26:20
would play sport at lunchtime and
00:26:22
eventually you've got a group of friends
00:26:23
because you're engaged in sport and
00:26:25
those that was probably the the best way
00:26:26
to get friendships. Yeah. What were you
00:26:28
playing back then? I was playing
00:26:30
everything probably back then. Uh I was
00:26:31
playing rugby. I was playing um
00:26:34
basketball. I was still playing a bit of
00:26:36
tennis um back then. Uh what else did I
00:26:39
played for the school? Maybe touch.
00:26:40
Played touch for the school. Um but we'd
00:26:42
played league every lunchtime at school
00:26:44
and you know I enjoyed again the
00:26:46
physicality. So we'd go and play league
00:26:47
and I had a made a few mates doing that.
00:26:50
Made a few enemies as well in those
00:26:52
days. But um but we loved it, you know.
00:26:54
We just love just being kids and and
00:26:56
having some fun. So when did you when
00:26:58
did you settle on basketball as your as
00:27:00
your one sport to be honest? Um when by
00:27:03
the time I moved to Oakland um again um
00:27:05
I was I was a decent rugby player in
00:27:07
Tatanaki and um you know played for the
00:27:09
province and stuff but when I moved to
00:27:11
Oakland um again I was aggressive rugby
00:27:14
player. I was so skinny back then when I
00:27:16
when we were playing in Oakuckland,
00:27:17
everyone was so much bigger and I can
00:27:18
remember flying into tackles and coming
00:27:20
off second best a lot and I was like man
00:27:22
I don't know if I want to keep doing
00:27:23
this you know like no whereas you know I
00:27:26
used to be able to tackle people and and
00:27:27
you know get them down whereas now I was
00:27:29
getting bumped off and you know it was
00:27:31
like I don't know if this is as fun as
00:27:32
it used to be. So I think that's and
00:27:35
that combined with you know we again we
00:27:36
had a hoop up at our at our motel and
00:27:38
and I would just spend hours out there
00:27:40
practicing and I was starting to get
00:27:41
quite good at it. Um, and I was kind of
00:27:43
like loving the fact that I was putting
00:27:45
hours into basketball and seeing
00:27:46
improvement. And I think it's like
00:27:48
anything if you didn't see improvement
00:27:49
in things. You eventually will go and
00:27:52
really focus on that cuz I really knew
00:27:54
that if I was putting in hours, I was
00:27:56
getting better and better. And then, you
00:27:57
know, I'd go to school and practice the
00:27:59
things I'd worked on and I was, you
00:28:00
know, becoming one of the better players
00:28:01
at school and I was like, "Oh, I
00:28:03
actually quite enjoy this." And I just
00:28:05
love the basketball encompasses all of
00:28:07
the skills and that's probably what I
00:28:08
what I end up falling in love with
00:28:10
basketball for.
00:28:11
So, I've just got a mental picture of um
00:28:13
me having a nice relaxing night at a
00:28:16
motel in South Oakland. There's some
00:28:18
annoying kid outside bounce bounce. I
00:28:20
was that kid 100%. Like you'd imagine
00:28:23
just the ding on the on the back. Just
00:28:25
relentless for hours on end. Absolutely.
00:28:27
Yeah, that was me. Yeah. Wow. So, poor
00:28:29
people that stayed at that motel.
00:28:32
Did Did you guys work at the motel as
00:28:34
well? Yep. Yep. We had to work cleaning
00:28:36
like cleaning units or Yeah. Not so much
00:28:38
cleaning. We had cleaners, but we would
00:28:39
do odd jobs around the place. And then
00:28:41
when mom and dad would go out, we'd we'd
00:28:43
run the motel. So, I can remember being,
00:28:45
you know, school holidays and mom and
00:28:47
dad went away somewhere. And I was in
00:28:48
year 13 and I ran the motel for a week
00:28:50
on my own, you know, 17 years old. So,
00:28:53
um, again, it was one of those old ones
00:28:55
where as someone would open the front
00:28:57
door, the doorbell would ring and our
00:28:59
house was right next to the reception.
00:29:00
So, we'd we'd hear the bell in the house
00:29:02
and we'd come through and go, "How can
00:29:03
we help you?" So you'd just be sitting
00:29:05
in the house waiting as someone to
00:29:06
arrive and then as someone would walk in
00:29:08
the buzzer would go and you'd go out and
00:29:09
serve them. And so that was you had to
00:29:11
be there 24/7 basically cuz although you
00:29:13
would lock it up at night, people might
00:29:15
come at 10:00 at night needing a room.
00:29:17
And my dad was always if someone needs a
00:29:18
room, you sell them a room. You know, it
00:29:20
wasn't like, oh, we're closed. Sorry.
00:29:21
Cuz it's 10:00, it's 10:01, you've
00:29:24
missed the deadline. It's like, no, no,
00:29:25
we've got a spare room. Bought them in a
00:29:27
room. Happy days. So yeah, and we'd have
00:29:30
we'd even have a shuttle that would go
00:29:31
out and pick people up from the airport
00:29:32
and stuff. So we used to drive the
00:29:34
shuttle out to the airport, pick people
00:29:35
up and bring them back and take them
00:29:37
back out to their flights. So yeah, we
00:29:39
we all all myself and my two brothers
00:29:41
all worked at the motel. Jeez, it sounds
00:29:43
like your dad was um like really good at
00:29:45
running small business. Eh, like that's
00:29:46
Yeah, that's how you do it. 100%. I
00:29:48
mean, he um that motel was I think the
00:29:51
occupancy was like, you know, 90
00:29:53
something% all time. So he he was always
00:29:55
again he got into sports groups and
00:29:57
sports groups would stay there and you'd
00:29:58
get into exchange groups and they would
00:30:00
stay there and then you'd have your
00:30:01
tourists and then you'd have so again
00:30:03
that shuttle service to the airport
00:30:05
doesn't happen these days but if you
00:30:06
know you've stayed at a mot a motel that
00:30:09
will pick you up at the airport which
00:30:10
was 20 minutes away and drop you back
00:30:13
there that's a pretty good deal right in
00:30:14
nowadays terms. So and again that was
00:30:16
just my dad's um he loves people and he
00:30:18
loves being around people so in in that
00:30:21
people service industry he he really
00:30:22
thrived. What are they doing now? They
00:30:24
retired. Fully retired now. Yeah. Yeah.
00:30:27
Oh, do they live on? No, it's your
00:30:28
in-laws that live with you. Live with
00:30:30
me. Yeah, right. Yeah. Where are your
00:30:31
parents these days? So, they they live
00:30:33
out in Ramarama. So, live in a um 5 acre
00:30:35
block out there. Um yeah, they've again
00:30:38
they've worked really hard their lives.
00:30:39
So, now they're just putting their feet
00:30:40
up and relaxing.
00:30:43
So, how much of your basketball was like
00:30:44
natural talent versus versus hard work?
00:30:46
Cuz you made like your first New Zealand
00:30:48
age group team at 17, eh? Yep. Yep. So
00:30:50
straight out of school I was selected in
00:30:52
the New Zealand junior team and um Tad
00:30:54
Borwin who was the coach happened to be
00:30:55
the Oakland coach as well. So when I
00:30:57
trled for the New Zealand team and was
00:30:58
successful making that team he also was
00:31:00
like oh we'll come along and play for
00:31:02
Oakland as well. So I went straight out
00:31:04
of school into that. Um again I didn't
00:31:07
know I was so my school team we didn't
00:31:10
play in the premier comp that they have
00:31:12
in Oakland. There's premier comp and
00:31:13
then I think it's a grade and then the
00:31:15
the grade underneath. We were the third
00:31:16
grade in Oakuckland. So, I didn't I was
00:31:19
pretty good in that that group because
00:31:20
it wasn't a super talented group um that
00:31:23
we were a super talented um competition
00:31:25
that we played in. It was just a South
00:31:27
Oakland competition. Um but again, I
00:31:31
kind of cut my teeth at that level um
00:31:33
and I was able to play multiple
00:31:34
positions within my team and so it
00:31:36
really helped me develop different skill
00:31:38
sets um that I believe I've taken on
00:31:40
future. Um, but I didn't really know I
00:31:44
didn't know that I wasn't as talented as
00:31:46
some of the people. Like I just cuz I
00:31:47
played hard and I and I played
00:31:49
aggressive and I was fit. I kind of made
00:31:52
up for a lot of deficiencies at that
00:31:54
lower level. But when I got to the
00:31:55
higher level, I realized that there were
00:31:57
far more skilled and more talented
00:31:59
people. Like I I wasn't a super athlete.
00:32:01
I couldn't shoot great like the the
00:32:04
really good players could shoot. But
00:32:06
what I had was
00:32:09
um I guess a basketball IQ that I didn't
00:32:11
even know was probably superior than a
00:32:13
lot of people at the time. I just
00:32:14
thought everyone thought the same cuz
00:32:15
you don't ever go what is your brain
00:32:17
telling you, you know, but you can see
00:32:19
if a guy cannot jump high and you can
00:32:21
see a good if a guy can't shoot as good,
00:32:22
but you can't see what's going on in the
00:32:24
person's head. So I had a knack of being
00:32:26
able to get steals in a game. And a lot
00:32:28
of it wasn't because, you know, I was
00:32:31
fast or I was athletic. It was that I
00:32:33
could read a play. So I knew when a guy
00:32:35
was going to pass a court pass a pass
00:32:37
across the court, I would anticipate it,
00:32:39
get a steal and go down and get a layup
00:32:41
at the other end. And so I would get a
00:32:43
lot of my points on just being serviced
00:32:45
by someone else or by getting a steal
00:32:47
and and having no one in front of me.
00:32:49
But I wasn't super good at beating my
00:32:51
player to the hoop and scoring where a
00:32:52
lot of the guys are really talented in
00:32:54
that area. So I kind of probably back in
00:32:57
the day I probably honed in on the stuff
00:32:59
I was really good at and then I became
00:33:01
kind of made myself irreplaceable
00:33:03
because I was I could do things that
00:33:04
others couldn't do whereas everyone
00:33:06
could do the other things. So I kind of
00:33:08
focused on that probably too much when I
00:33:10
didn't spend enough time over here and
00:33:11
my game probably wasn't as balanced as
00:33:13
what if I went back and was critical of
00:33:15
myself I could have worked harder on the
00:33:16
things I wasn't good at and actually
00:33:18
probably elevated my game to a higher
00:33:20
level. I don't know. It was pretty
00:33:22
successful and long career. Yeah. I
00:33:24
mean, like I say, don't get me wrong, it
00:33:26
was I had a great career and I wouldn't
00:33:28
change that. Um, and like I say, had
00:33:29
some good success, but you often look
00:33:32
back and you think, did I work as hard
00:33:33
as what I possibly could? And to be
00:33:35
honest, when we first started, we didn't
00:33:36
know like what the kids know now and how
00:33:38
what they have to do. It's pretty much
00:33:40
scripted. You know, if you do X, Y, and
00:33:42
Z, you're going to put yourself in the
00:33:43
best position to succeed. And if you've
00:33:44
got some natural talent, you might even
00:33:46
go further than the next person next to
00:33:48
you. So, we know that now and and kids
00:33:51
know that now. But it's it's it's hard
00:33:53
work. Like your average person cannot be
00:33:56
a prof professional athlete. And every
00:33:58
kid that's playing sport to this day
00:34:00
that's 14 15 goes, "I'm going to be a
00:34:01
professional athlete." Like some people
00:34:04
are not cut out to be a professional
00:34:05
athlete. And that's all right cuz
00:34:07
there's there's something for everyone.
00:34:09
But if you want to get to the top of
00:34:10
your game, it's going to be a lot of
00:34:11
boring hours and you've got to put the
00:34:13
hours in. That's the bottom line. Yeah.
00:34:15
That's that's another thing I've got
00:34:16
from doing this this podcast. You
00:34:18
realize the only cheat code there is is
00:34:19
hard work. That's it. It's a really
00:34:21
boring answer and it's not an answer
00:34:23
that anyone wants to hear, but that's
00:34:25
it. That's it. It's a cheat code. Yep.
00:34:27
And discipline, you know, like you got
00:34:28
to have discipline. Like you got to be
00:34:30
you got to be disciplined in what you
00:34:31
eat. You got to be disciplined that
00:34:32
you're going to miss, you know, personal
00:34:34
events in your life because you're out
00:34:36
training, you know, like like I can
00:34:38
remember like when I was younger, I used
00:34:39
to go to parties and stuff and then I'd
00:34:41
be like, I know in my mind I go, I know
00:34:43
I got training in the morning at 8:00 in
00:34:44
the morning. I can't I can't stay out
00:34:46
with you guys. I got to go home cuz I
00:34:48
got training in the morning. And you
00:34:50
know when you're eight beers deep, none
00:34:51
of your mates want to hear that. You
00:34:52
don't want to hear that. Yeah. Exactly.
00:34:54
Yeah. No one wants to hear that, right?
00:34:56
So, you've got to be disciplined to be
00:34:57
able to walk away from your good mates
00:34:59
because you know they're going to
00:35:00
continue on having a good time, but
00:35:01
you're going to go home early cuz make
00:35:03
sure you get a decent sleep to get up so
00:35:04
you can go to training the next day. And
00:35:06
then then what becomes happening is you
00:35:08
end up going, I'm not going to even go
00:35:09
out with them because I don't want to
00:35:10
put myself in a position that I'm going
00:35:12
to have to say no to my mates. So, you
00:35:14
just go, oh no, I'm not coming out
00:35:15
tonight. So you sacrifice a lot of your
00:35:17
personal stuff early on to be able to
00:35:19
get the gains to be able to be
00:35:21
successful. But I can tell you now my
00:35:23
mates that that I grew up with and
00:35:25
stuff, they all probably really proud of
00:35:26
where I've got to and they know I made
00:35:28
some sacrifices to get there and that's
00:35:30
that's part of it. Yeah. I suppose for
00:35:33
anyone regardless of whatever sport that
00:35:35
um they want to excel and the question
00:35:36
to ask yourself is how bad do you want
00:35:38
it? And if you want it bad enough then
00:35:40
that's what it comes down to. You'll do
00:35:41
it. Yeah. Um yeah. Oh the career stuff.
00:35:44
We we will go deep on that in a second.
00:35:46
But first of all, it must have been
00:35:48
around this time in your late teens when
00:35:50
you when you're at the motel that um you
00:35:52
meet your wife who you're still with
00:35:53
today. Yeah. Nikki. Nikki. Yeah. So,
00:35:56
I've heard two different stories. One,
00:35:58
she worked at a service station and you
00:35:59
sort of creeped on her as a customer. Um
00:36:01
another story I've heard is that you you
00:36:03
work together at the servo. Both. Right.
00:36:06
You're both very right. So, the service
00:36:08
station was directly across the road
00:36:09
from the motel. Um and um often we'd
00:36:13
have to that's where you went and got
00:36:14
your bread and milk and you know it was
00:36:15
a BP service station so you get your
00:36:17
bread and milk and all the stuff. So mom
00:36:18
would go across and get a loaf of bread
00:36:20
for you know for breakfast or whatever
00:36:22
or milk or whatever it was. And um
00:36:24
Nikki's brother actually worked there
00:36:26
and I met him first Jeremy and um and
00:36:28
then I I was I first got a job there um
00:36:31
as as parts
00:36:34
after school and became friends with
00:36:36
Jeremy and then one day we were I was
00:36:38
working with Jeremy and um and Nikki
00:36:40
came in and saw him and they were
00:36:41
talking and I was like oh yeah and then
00:36:43
she she left and I said man who's that
00:36:46
girl and he goes oh that's my sister and
00:36:47
I was like oh okay and I was kind of
00:36:49
like and then then she ended up working
00:36:51
at the gas station as Oh, she picked up
00:36:53
some part-time work. So, we never worked
00:36:55
together or very rarely. I don't think
00:36:56
we even worked together, but um yeah, we
00:36:59
kind of like just started becoming
00:37:00
friends there and um we were friends for
00:37:03
about a year before we um officially
00:37:05
started going out. Um and yeah, I've
00:37:07
been together ever since. So, that was
00:37:09
you 30 something years ago. So, it's so
00:37:12
cool. So, you're like teenage
00:37:13
sweethearts. What What's her
00:37:14
recollection of um love first seeing
00:37:16
you? Oh, she was not at all interested
00:37:18
in me when she first saw me. Not at all.
00:37:22
Yeah. No. Um, no, in all seriousness, we
00:37:25
were, uh, we were purely platonic
00:37:27
friends, you know, and I think, um, I
00:37:30
think I either wore her down or won her
00:37:32
over, one of the two things. Um, and I
00:37:34
think, you know, one of the things we
00:37:36
say to our kids is don't of, you know,
00:37:38
often give people a chance. Get to know
00:37:40
someone because, you know, it's not
00:37:42
always, you know, love at first sight or
00:37:43
whatever. It was love at first sight for
00:37:44
me. It probably wasn't for her, but um,
00:37:46
but, you know, it's not always the fairy
00:37:48
tale like that. get to know someone
00:37:49
because the personality is generally the
00:37:51
thing that's going to keep you together
00:37:52
over a long period of time. Um so yeah,
00:37:55
so again um we we had a good strong
00:37:58
friendship and um and then we took it to
00:38:01
the next level and yeah, never looked
00:38:02
back. You got married quite young, eh? I
00:38:05
think we were 24 when we got married.
00:38:07
Yeah. Yeah. So you'd been together like
00:38:09
say six, seven years. About eight years.
00:38:11
Eight years. Yeah. Yeah.
00:38:13
It's amazing from the perspective of
00:38:15
where like where you're at now like a
00:38:17
Yeah. middle-aged man. That's That's
00:38:20
cool, right? That's really cool. It is.
00:38:22
I mean, I'm very fortunate. Most people
00:38:24
don't find that that one person. Not at
00:38:25
a young age, but some people never find
00:38:27
that one person. How did How did you
00:38:28
know she was the one? It's funny. I told
00:38:30
my mates um when I first saw her, I was
00:38:32
like, I'm going to marry this girl. And
00:38:34
um as a teenage boy. As a teenage boy.
00:38:36
Yeah. As a teenage boy. I was like,
00:38:37
there was something about her that just
00:38:39
that caught me. Um, I liked how she
00:38:41
looked, but also just she was she was
00:38:43
cool, you know, and and she understood
00:38:45
me and and got me and and you know, and
00:38:48
vice versa. And again, that friendship
00:38:50
was really strong. She was almost my
00:38:51
best friend within a year, you know, so
00:38:53
it was was pretty cool that you can find
00:38:54
that person. And it's hard. Now we've
00:38:56
got our own kids. Their their
00:38:58
expectation of finding that the one
00:39:00
early is they just think they should
00:39:02
find they should have already found
00:39:03
their person by now. It's the bluepint.
00:39:05
Because it's the blueprint, right? And
00:39:06
uh and it worked for us. But doesn't
00:39:08
work for everyone.
00:39:10
[ __ ] that's the sweetest story. Like
00:39:11
your kids may may or may not listen to
00:39:13
this one day and um like to know that um
00:39:16
Yeah. to hear the way that you're
00:39:18
speaking about their mom. Yeah, that's
00:39:20
really sweet. Yeah. I mean, like I say,
00:39:22
um and and she's a you know, I think
00:39:24
back to my success in my career. She's a
00:39:26
big reason for it, you know, like
00:39:27
obviously there's quite a few people
00:39:28
that are that are important in my career
00:39:31
journey, but she would be the most
00:39:33
important. She's she's the one who
00:39:35
humbles me. you know, when I'd come home
00:39:37
and be on a high on something, she would
00:39:38
bring me back down to reality, you know,
00:39:40
and go, "You're not that good." You
00:39:41
know, she wouldn't say those words, but,
00:39:43
you know, like would always humble me,
00:39:44
but also the one that would kick me out
00:39:46
the door to go and train and and tell
00:39:47
me, you know, you got to go work harder,
00:39:49
you know, and so very fortunate to have
00:39:51
someone that understands what how to get
00:39:53
the best out of you. And and she
00:39:55
sacrificed a lot of her life for me to
00:39:57
do what I do, you know, with raising our
00:39:59
kids when I've been up all around the
00:40:01
world playing the sport that I love. M I
00:40:03
wouldn't have been able to do that if I
00:40:04
didn't have a wife at home that was, you
00:40:05
know, that was enabling me to go and do
00:40:07
that and putting her own career on hold.
00:40:10
If I was you, I think I would have I
00:40:12
would have um [ __ ] it up in my 20s. I
00:40:14
would have um Yeah. You know, you're
00:40:16
you're a good-looking guy. You're
00:40:17
popular. You're a star on a successful
00:40:20
basketball team. Um yeah, the the the
00:40:23
temptation would have got to me, I
00:40:24
think, as a a character flaw on my part.
00:40:26
Are you are you religious? Are you guys
00:40:27
religious? No, not not religious. Yeah,
00:40:29
you it's funny because you you it's just
00:40:31
like religious energy and like um you
00:40:33
know meeting young, marrying young and
00:40:35
and just having this rock solid
00:40:37
relationship. It seems like there's some
00:40:39
almost like religious like foundations
00:40:40
there. That's really sweet. No. I mean,
00:40:42
don't get me wrong, when we were um when
00:40:44
we were kids, we went to Christian camp
00:40:47
and things like that, but we certainly
00:40:48
didn't grow up in the church or anything
00:40:49
like that. No. No. You just got a good
00:40:52
north star or a good moral compass. Um
00:40:55
and your your kids, so you got four
00:40:57
kids. Um the two older ones, both pretty
00:41:00
handy basketballers. Yep. Yep. So, uh
00:41:02
four kids, 23, 21, and twins that are
00:41:05
14. Um they actually all play
00:41:06
basketball. Um and the older two took it
00:41:09
really seriously. So, Jaden, the oldest,
00:41:12
is playing for the FI in the in the
00:41:13
Sales ML and um down in Toadonga there.
00:41:16
And my daughter McKenzie, she was in um
00:41:20
college for a couple of years over in
00:41:22
the States. Um again, loved loved
00:41:24
playing the sport. she's had a few
00:41:26
health issues, so she had to come home
00:41:28
um due to her health and um she's
00:41:29
becoming a chiropractor now. So, really
00:41:31
proud of her and that journey. And then
00:41:33
the 14-year-old twins have have never
00:41:35
really shown or wanted to be taking
00:41:38
sport at a at that next level um at a at
00:41:41
a performance level. They love playing
00:41:43
sport and they play net and basketball
00:41:45
for their school. Um but they've never
00:41:47
and and to be honest, we've never
00:41:48
encouraged it. I've probably we've
00:41:50
parented our two older kids differently
00:41:52
to how we parented the two younger ones.
00:41:54
It's actually, it's, this will sound
00:41:56
really funny. It's actually not that
00:41:58
enjoyable to have high performing kids
00:42:00
cuz every time you go to something, they
00:42:02
expect to be high performing at it. And
00:42:04
when they get in the car, if they didn't
00:42:06
high perform, they're not happy. Whereas
00:42:08
the two younger ones, they go and play
00:42:09
sport, they get in the car happy every
00:42:10
single time we get home, we go and get
00:42:12
an, you know, ice cream down the road
00:42:14
after a game and they're not, they don't
00:42:16
care if they play good or bad. They're
00:42:17
just happy they ran around with their
00:42:19
mates. that's far more enjoyable, which
00:42:20
it sounds crazy coming from someone
00:42:22
who's in that high performance
00:42:24
environment, but the older two, you
00:42:25
know, and again, I didn't parent very
00:42:27
well when those car ride homes after
00:42:30
basketball. I'd be telling them all the
00:42:31
things they didn't do right, thinking I
00:42:33
was trying to help them, but all it was
00:42:34
doing is crushing them, you know,
00:42:35
knowing their dad was, you know, and
00:42:37
again, I'm genuinely was doing it to
00:42:39
help, but you know, and I look back now
00:42:41
and I go, man, I shouldn't have been I
00:42:43
should have just got in and said, "You
00:42:44
played well." Cuz that's what my parents
00:42:46
used to say, get in and go a good game.
00:42:48
and they never critiqued anything. So I
00:42:50
would leave thinking I played really
00:42:51
good and probably didn't. Whereas my
00:42:53
kids would get in even if they played
00:42:54
well, I'd point out the things that they
00:42:56
didn't do well. So they'd always feel
00:42:57
like there was room to improve. And you
00:43:00
know, I look back at it now and I think,
00:43:01
man, I should have just got in the car
00:43:03
and said, "Great game. You played well."
00:43:06
And they'll go, "No, I didn't do this."
00:43:07
I go, "No, you did." And then that's it.
00:43:09
You know, and then just go and enjoy an
00:43:10
ice cream together, whatever it is. But
00:43:12
you didn't. And now they're ruined for
00:43:13
life. That's right. Exactly. That's
00:43:15
right. Oh, no. It's a good bit of
00:43:16
self-reflection there. You do the best
00:43:18
you can with Yeah. You just Exactly. You
00:43:21
just do the best you can. Um Yeah. How's
00:43:23
it been for them having the Boucher
00:43:25
name? Has hard. Uh especially uh
00:43:28
McKenzie, she struggled with it. Um and
00:43:30
again, girls are probably more brutal
00:43:32
than boys. Um Jaden Jaden cpped it a
00:43:35
little bit. Um and again, he would, you
00:43:37
know, he would kind of take it in his
00:43:39
stride and he's he's quite a reserved
00:43:40
guy anyway, so I think he wouldn't say
00:43:42
if it bothered him. um he tended to play
00:43:45
better when you know someone would say
00:43:47
something to him, he would tend to use
00:43:48
that as fuel. U McKenzie on the other
00:43:51
hand, not that it didn't make her play
00:43:52
any worse, but she would really
00:43:53
internalize after a game. It would
00:43:55
really hurt her, especially if someone
00:43:56
said you only made the team because of
00:43:58
your dad or something like that and that
00:43:59
would really hurt her. Um and she would
00:44:01
didn't understand why people would say
00:44:04
mean things like that and that's that's
00:44:05
hard for a especially when you're a
00:44:07
teenage girl coming through. It's it's
00:44:09
hard for them to wear that. and and I've
00:44:11
got a lot of mates who have um who have
00:44:14
been, you know, Hall of Famers and stuff
00:44:16
and have kids coming through and they
00:44:17
everyone experiences the same thing. So,
00:44:19
it's it's really hard. So much so that
00:44:21
McKenzie didn't want her surname written
00:44:23
on the back of her uniform cuz she
00:44:24
didn't want the average person knowing
00:44:25
who she was, which which was sad for me
00:44:28
cuz I'm really proud of our family name
00:44:30
and we wanted our kids to all be proud
00:44:31
to have it, but she didn't want it on
00:44:33
her uniform, which was hard as a parent.
00:44:35
Um, but we would try and coach our kids
00:44:37
through it and just say, you know, like
00:44:38
people might say things, but a lot of it
00:44:40
comes from jealousy. A lot of it comes
00:44:42
from just trying to hurt you and trying
00:44:43
to put you off your game. So, don't
00:44:45
don't let it bother you. And um yeah,
00:44:48
and again, that's just part of it. And
00:44:49
they and and it's funny, the younger
00:44:51
ones, they're probably too young, a lot
00:44:52
of their age group, and don't even know
00:44:54
who I am, so they don't even know. Yeah.
00:44:57
Yeah. Oh, it's rough, eh? Oh, that's
00:45:00
heartbreaking to hear. But it's but it's
00:45:02
I mean every anyone who's got a surname
00:45:03
on their back, right, they're going to
00:45:04
be a target and that's just how it is,
00:45:06
you know, and I think it's anyone you
00:45:08
speak to that has children playing that
00:45:09
that's played at a high level, I'm sure
00:45:11
they they've got the same thing. Yeah,
00:45:12
for sure. All right, let's talk about
00:45:14
this epic playing career. So, your first
00:45:17
um pro contract, what was that worth or
00:45:19
your first paid? Well, it's funny story.
00:45:21
So, it was uh we were called the Celtic
00:45:23
Stars, the Oakland team. Um, and I can
00:45:25
remember, um, I signed a contract for
00:45:28
$50, what I thought was $50 a week, but
00:45:31
no, it was just $50 total. So, I went I
00:45:34
went in and got my first check for $50
00:45:36
and I went and spent it. And the next
00:45:39
week I went in, the lady said, "Oh, no,
00:45:40
no, there's no paycheck here for you."
00:45:42
And I said, "Oh, that that's weird." And
00:45:43
so, she's like, "Let me check." So, she
00:45:45
goes out and makes a phone call and
00:45:46
comes back and says, "No, no, you picked
00:45:48
up your paycheck last week." I said,
00:45:50
"Yeah, that was last week's paycheck.
00:45:52
What about this week?" and she said,
00:45:52
"No, you've that was your contract." So,
00:45:54
I went home and let checked my contract.
00:45:56
Yeah, it was right. It was $50 total.
00:45:58
Um, so that was my first ever contract
00:46:00
at 17 years old. The worst thing is is
00:46:02
when I went in to pick it up, I was with
00:46:04
Pierro Cameron and um and he was on good
00:46:07
money back then. I don't know when I say
00:46:08
good money, he was probably on like $200
00:46:10
a week and so he' picked up his pay and
00:46:13
so we were together and I was like, I
00:46:14
wonder why mine's not here, you And then
00:46:16
when I got home, I was really
00:46:17
embarrassed that I hadn't read my
00:46:18
contract properly, but also that I I'd
00:46:21
signed for $50 for the whole season. But
00:46:23
to be honest, I was stoked as a
00:46:25
17-year-old kid to have 50 bucks. I was
00:46:27
like, "Sweet." But I spent it all in one
00:46:28
go. That was the worst thing. How many
00:46:31
games were like what was the the game?
00:46:33
Bucks a game. Yeah. Yeah. It was not a
00:46:35
very good ratio. When you had counted
00:46:36
your petrol money to get there and
00:46:38
stuff, it wasn't a very good ratio. But
00:46:39
yeah, even when you account for
00:46:40
inflation and things like that, it's
00:46:42
still a [ __ ] deal. Um, was it Yeah. Was
00:46:44
there a particular moment when you
00:46:46
realized like basketball could be your
00:46:48
full-time gig? Probably. Um, when I when
00:46:50
I first got selected for Oakland, I was
00:46:52
like, "Wow, this is pretty cool." And
00:46:53
and you know, there were guys above me
00:46:55
that you know, you watch um playing the
00:46:57
game that had played for New Zealand and
00:46:59
and Piro who was a year older than me
00:47:01
and and he he was kind of like right on
00:47:02
that fringe of that New Zealand team and
00:47:04
then made it like a year later. Like it
00:47:06
was awesome going, "Oh, wow." That you
00:47:08
could do this. and and that was right in
00:47:09
the time where people were going off to
00:47:11
um they had just started going off to
00:47:13
America for basketball and I can
00:47:15
remember turning down a a scholarship in
00:47:17
the US um because I didn't didn't know
00:47:19
have the internet I didn't know what was
00:47:21
in the US I knew I knew about the NBA
00:47:23
and stuff like that but I didn't know
00:47:24
what these colleges had to offer and so
00:47:26
I chose not to go because I playing for
00:47:28
Oakland and I was with Nikki at the time
00:47:30
as well and um you know not that she was
00:47:33
a she I remember her saying to me oh
00:47:35
just go you know like I'll go to college
00:47:36
in America and we'll meet over there or
00:47:38
whatever. So, she wasn't holding me back
00:47:40
at all. Um, but I just thought I was
00:47:42
happy where I was and I was happy
00:47:44
playing for Oakland. And then as that
00:47:46
kind of a few years into that, I
00:47:48
realized that I was getting better and
00:47:49
better from training every day. And so,
00:47:51
that's when I started thinking I could
00:47:52
do this as a job um and play
00:47:54
professionally. But, and in those days,
00:47:56
there was no breakers. So, there was no
00:47:58
national uh there was no team playing
00:48:00
and professionally semi it was all
00:48:01
semi-professional. So, the only way to
00:48:03
get a job was to go overseas. So I was
00:48:05
trying to work really hard to get
00:48:06
overseas and then then lo and behold um
00:48:10
yeah Breakers came along in 2003. So
00:48:13
it's kind of answered all the dreams.
00:48:15
Yeah. I mean the the career ended up
00:48:17
like pretty damn good. So you can't have
00:48:19
any complaints about that. But do you
00:48:21
occasionally think about the scholarship
00:48:22
thing and like a sliding door sort of
00:48:24
moment how life would look different?
00:48:25
Yeah. I mean again I I think about you
00:48:27
know all the things I talked about my
00:48:28
weaknesses. Would they have got better
00:48:30
in college? Would they have got worse?
00:48:31
So many kids have different experiences
00:48:33
in college at the moment. Some have a
00:48:35
really good experience, some have not so
00:48:36
good. So, it's hard to know if I would
00:48:38
be would have been a better player if I
00:48:39
went. I would like to think I would have
00:48:41
been, but you just don't know. And
00:48:42
again, I like again, I'm really happy
00:48:44
with the career I had here. I don't have
00:48:46
any real regrets, but I often think if
00:48:48
I'd gone to college, what what would it
00:48:49
have looked like?
00:48:52
Yeah, this this might be a dumb
00:48:54
question, but for for anyone that's like
00:48:55
me that doesn't know too much about
00:48:56
basketball, like what's the difference
00:48:58
between being like a really good like
00:49:00
superstar New Zealand level player like
00:49:02
yourself and making the NBA? Yeah. So
00:49:04
again, there's a there's a massive
00:49:06
different especially now. It's it's a
00:49:07
lot harder now, I think, to make the
00:49:09
NBA. Like again, the chances of a New
00:49:12
Zealand kid making it now is really
00:49:14
hard. And the reason I say that is the
00:49:15
level of athleticism alone is like is
00:49:19
like up here, you know, like there's and
00:49:20
you can't your natural ability can't
00:49:22
match that. So if your natural ability
00:49:24
can't match where the kind of like
00:49:26
benchmark is, you've got to be really
00:49:28
really good at something else or some
00:49:30
other things. And so if you're a um kid
00:49:34
from New Zealand and you don't you can't
00:49:36
reach that athleticism bar, what are the
00:49:38
things you're going to bring to the NBA?
00:49:39
So a good example is Steven Adams, very
00:49:41
good athlete in New Zealand, probably in
00:49:43
American terms, not a not a high level
00:49:45
athlete, but super physically strong,
00:49:48
like his probably the strongest guy in
00:49:50
the NBA and just a a real menace and
00:49:53
sets unbelievably strong screens, but
00:49:55
gets on the offensive glass. these are
00:49:57
things that he brings to a team that,
00:50:00
you know, when he first started, they
00:50:02
could foresee him being that player. Um,
00:50:04
and when he was younger, he was more
00:50:05
athletic and things, but he's now carved
00:50:08
out a niche in the NBA that is really
00:50:10
good. But the game, even when he first
00:50:12
started to where the NBA is now, is
00:50:13
totally different. They're not looking
00:50:14
for players like him. The only reason
00:50:17
he's still in the NBA is cuz they know
00:50:18
what he can do and it's effective. But
00:50:21
they're not looking for the a guy that
00:50:24
can do that. They're looking for a seven
00:50:25
foot guy who can shoot threes and and
00:50:28
you know dunk on anyone and and block
00:50:30
shots. That's what they're looking for.
00:50:32
Not every team can have that cuz not not
00:50:33
many sevenfooters can do that. But what
00:50:36
they're looking for now in the NBA is
00:50:37
they're looking for young guys that that
00:50:39
can kind of have tendencies that would
00:50:41
lean towards doing that. So it's very
00:50:42
hard to make it just on your physical
00:50:44
makeup alone, let alone your own
00:50:46
basketball ability. Did did your playing
00:50:49
career ever overlap with Steven Adams?
00:50:51
Uh we played in his first year playing
00:50:54
was like I think it was one of my last
00:50:56
years or one of my last few years. So
00:50:57
yeah, we over overlapped. We played
00:50:58
actually against each other at ASB
00:51:00
Stadium and in Koi there we played and
00:51:02
uh he was good good young player. I
00:51:04
think he was like 17 at the time. Yeah.
00:51:06
So briefly crossed paths. Yeah. Did you
00:51:08
have any way of like thinking [ __ ] this
00:51:10
kid's got something special? Oh, I knew
00:51:11
he was special. Like he was man he was a
00:51:14
again think about supreme athlete and a
00:51:17
and a strong kid you know and I just
00:51:18
remember and moved really well. Um, I
00:51:20
remember thinking and I'd played against
00:51:22
all of his older brothers, so I knew the
00:51:24
gene pool and they were all very good
00:51:25
players um, in New Zealand and you know,
00:51:28
so I knew that he was just another one
00:51:29
of the Adams coming through that was a
00:51:31
good basketball player and a good strong
00:51:33
physical basketball play basketball
00:51:34
player and then obviously he from there
00:51:36
he went off to college and followed his
00:51:38
NBA dream after that. He's doing all
00:51:40
right and I think he's done a bit more
00:51:41
than 50 bucks a season. Oh mate, he
00:51:43
would have been on millions like crazy.
00:51:46
I think his last contract was around 150
00:51:48
million or something like that. Damn,
00:51:49
that's insane. So, um, yeah, who have we
00:51:52
had? So, um, in the NBA, is it Steven
00:51:54
and Sean? Sean. Yep. And Kirk Penny had
00:51:56
a had a what we call a cup of tea in the
00:51:58
NBA. So, he, I think, picked up a 10-day
00:52:00
contract. And so, he he briefly, um,
00:52:02
went to the NBA and then in the women's
00:52:04
side, Megan Compine in the WNBA. So, um,
00:52:07
so yeah. So, um, not many have made it.
00:52:10
Um, like I say, Kirk Penny was a world
00:52:12
class player and even he didn't make it
00:52:14
for very long. We had other players, you
00:52:16
know, Pierro Cameron, I think if he was
00:52:18
in his prime, the way they look at um
00:52:21
international players now, I believe he
00:52:23
would be in the NBA as well. Phil Jones
00:52:25
is another one I think probably had
00:52:26
potential to make the NBA. Mark Dickle
00:52:28
was very close and ended up having a
00:52:30
serious accident right before the draft
00:52:32
and didn't get drafted, but probably
00:52:33
would have been drafted. What people
00:52:35
don't know about him is he he led the
00:52:37
whole of the NCAA college teams in
00:52:39
assists for the for the of of all the
00:52:42
colleges in America. he was the number
00:52:43
one in assists and I think it was at
00:52:45
nine some nine assists a game or
00:52:47
something which was unheard of. Um so
00:52:48
again he's someone who probably would
00:52:50
have made the probably would have been
00:52:51
drafted I think if he hadn't had the
00:52:52
accident. So we had a few come close. Um
00:52:55
but again it's it has even changed even
00:52:57
more now and it's more predicated to big
00:53:00
athletes now. If you're not 6'7 and
00:53:03
above and athletic your chance of making
00:53:06
NBA is pretty low. Yeah. You mentioned
00:53:08
Shawn Marks your old teammate. He's he's
00:53:10
had a remarkable career hasn't he?
00:53:12
Unreal. Unreal. I mean, I don't think
00:53:14
New Zealand appreciate the the position
00:53:16
that he's in as GM of the Brooklyn Nets.
00:53:18
Um, that a New Zealander is running, you
00:53:20
know, an NBA franchise like that. He's
00:53:23
phenomenal guy. Um, I've spent a lot of
00:53:25
time with Shan and um, playing, but also
00:53:28
outside of it since his time in Brooklyn
00:53:29
and and he's just a phenomenal guy and
00:53:31
um, you know, big responsibility where
00:53:33
he is and he's carved out a I think a 10
00:53:35
12 year NBA GM career which is a long
00:53:39
time in the NBA. and not a lot of the
00:53:41
guys last uh that period of time. So,
00:53:43
he's done really well. Yeah. And dealing
00:53:44
with like billions and billions of
00:53:46
dollars, right? And dealing with
00:53:47
athletes that are worth, you know,
00:53:48
millions and millions of dollars, you
00:53:50
know, and trying to be able to put that
00:53:51
all into a winning formula. It's really
00:53:53
pretty tough job. Unreal. And in your
00:53:55
job, sorry, we're bouncing around all
00:53:57
over the place here. In in your job as
00:53:59
um the boss of Basketball New Zealand,
00:54:00
did you have any like dealings or
00:54:01
interactions with Steven Adams? Yep.
00:54:03
Yep. For sure. Um, so I spent a bit of
00:54:05
time with Steven in the US and um, you
00:54:07
know, and Steven and I have got a good
00:54:08
relationship. Um, and his his um, one of
00:54:12
his brothers is one of my best mates and
00:54:14
um, you know, and so my connection
00:54:15
through Steven has been pretty strong.
00:54:17
So um, again, we've had a a few catchups
00:54:20
and and we get on well and and stuff
00:54:22
like that. So yeah, I would call it a
00:54:24
strong relationship. Is is he salty with
00:54:26
basketball New Zealand? Not at all. Not
00:54:28
at all. That's I think that's a stigma
00:54:30
that's again in the media. And um, was
00:54:32
he from a younger age? I don't know.
00:54:33
Again, I haven't actually delved into
00:54:35
that, but um ever since I've been at
00:54:36
Basketball New Zealand, he's had no
00:54:38
issue with Basketball New Zealand and um
00:54:40
or myself, we've got a again a strong
00:54:42
relationship and you know, if there was
00:54:44
anything there, we would have ironed it
00:54:45
out by now, but there's never it's never
00:54:47
ever come up in a conversation. H as
00:54:50
president of the Breakers now, how are
00:54:51
you going to get him over the line? How
00:54:53
Oh, we would love to. Absolutely.
00:54:55
Absolutely. We just when the time's
00:54:56
right and the the phone call comes in,
00:54:58
we'll be ready. So when he's like 45
00:55:01
maybe. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. It' still be
00:55:03
a handy play to have on you, too. Um,
00:55:05
just some random little ones here. Is
00:55:08
trash talking a thing in basketball?
00:55:09
100%. Yeah. Was it 100%. Not for me.
00:55:12
Were you? No, I was I was I'm not
00:55:14
quickwitted enough to be a good trash
00:55:15
talker. You in the shower after I should
00:55:18
have said that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:55:19
Exactly. I was the next day probably for
00:55:21
me. Um, but no, I used to enjoy playing
00:55:24
trash talkers though cuz I I loved extra
00:55:26
motivation to want to play hard. Um, and
00:55:28
if someone was, especially if they were
00:55:30
trash talking me about how I was
00:55:32
defending them or something, I loved it
00:55:34
because I knew I was in their head. If
00:55:36
they weren't talking to me, they weren't
00:55:37
worried about me. But if they were
00:55:38
talking to me, they were worried about
00:55:40
what I was doing or they were upset
00:55:41
about what I was doing. Um, I had no
00:55:43
comeback other than shut up and probably
00:55:45
had a few swear words in between that,
00:55:46
but um, yeah, I I had no comeback. So, I
00:55:49
never really engaged in trash talk. I
00:55:51
try to let my game speak for itself. Um,
00:55:54
what was some of the best like trash
00:55:56
talk you got? what what sort of things
00:55:57
to Was it really offensive or some of it
00:56:00
some of it yeah some of it some of it
00:56:02
gets a little bit below the line um with
00:56:04
you know might be race involved like you
00:56:07
know might be calling you something
00:56:08
something white boy or something like
00:56:10
that but um again I I generally didn't
00:56:13
engage back so I never got to the point
00:56:16
of probably too out of control um but
00:56:19
you know there's a lot of a lot of
00:56:21
talking going on in a basketball game
00:56:23
and a lot of you know when someone
00:56:25
scores on you they tell you that you
00:56:27
ain't [ __ ] or you know like that you
00:56:29
can't defend anyone or whatever it is
00:56:31
you know a lot of guys would talk like
00:56:32
that and and it's probably more so
00:56:34
nowadays than probably even what it was
00:56:36
back then um but New Zealanders
00:56:39
generally aren't trash talkers well
00:56:41
certainly in my era weren't trash
00:56:42
talkers we wouldn't talk a lot would say
00:56:44
the occasional thing but um I think the
00:56:46
newer generation have been watching a
00:56:48
lot of the NBA and that happens a lot
00:56:49
there so they've ended up picking up a
00:56:51
lot of the tendencies from the NBA I I
00:56:54
read a story about you did did you once
00:56:56
Um, forget your boots and play like
00:56:58
borrow someone's
00:57:00
borrow someone's like slip-on shoes or
00:57:02
something. Yeah, I did. I did. What the
00:57:03
hell? What happened? Um, how first of
00:57:05
all, how do you how like
00:57:08
surely you have like um not
00:57:10
superstitions, but like a like a routine
00:57:12
or a structure. How do you forget your
00:57:14
shoes? Exactly. It's exactly. So, we
00:57:15
were um so we were playing um I think I
00:57:19
was playing for Perth, I think, at the
00:57:21
time. me. I was playing for Perth and we
00:57:22
were playing and usually when you play
00:57:24
Ilawar, you stay in Sydney and you just
00:57:26
drive down for the game and drive back.
00:57:27
So, it's about an hour and a half away
00:57:28
in Ilawa and um we were playing Sydney.
00:57:32
So, I remember having my shoes on the
00:57:33
bed and we had these backpacks that
00:57:35
weren't very big. So, your shoes
00:57:36
couldn't fit in the backpack. So, you
00:57:38
kind of put your your showering clothes
00:57:40
in the backpack or your your stuff in
00:57:42
the backpack and then you you pick up
00:57:44
your shoes and carry them. And I must
00:57:46
have got distracted somehow and I put my
00:57:47
backpack on and just left the room and
00:57:49
left my shoes sitting on the bed. And so
00:57:51
I'd got to the locker room and I
00:57:53
remember sitting in the locker room and
00:57:54
you open your bag up to to start getting
00:57:56
changed for the game. And we just driven
00:57:57
an hour and a half from the motel and I
00:57:58
opened my bag and I saw no shoes. And at
00:58:02
that moment I realized I don't put my
00:58:04
shoes in my bag. I carry them. So I
00:58:06
went, "Oh, they must be in the van." So
00:58:07
I quickly raced out to the van. No
00:58:09
shoes. And uh and the worst thing about
00:58:12
it was I wasn't wearing sneakers to the
00:58:14
game. I was wearing scuffs or slides.
00:58:16
So, I had literally no shoes on. Um, I
00:58:20
had socks in my bag, but no shoes. And
00:58:21
one of one of the guys on the team had
00:58:23
worn slip-on shoes. Sneakers, but
00:58:26
slip-on sneakers. So, I literally had to
00:58:30
put his slip-on sneakers on and play in
00:58:33
slip-on sneakers. And luckily we happen
00:58:34
to be the same size, but he had but the
00:58:38
the worst thing about it is all
00:58:39
basketball players are not all most
00:58:41
basketball players have orthotics to
00:58:43
because your feet are going to get
00:58:44
messed up. So you they're built for your
00:58:46
feet. So he was he had the same
00:58:48
orthotics he took out of his shoes to
00:58:50
put in his playing shoes to make sure he
00:58:53
had his shoes. So his shoes had no inner
00:58:55
souls in them. So not only did I play
00:58:56
with these slip-on shoes, they had no
00:58:59
inner souls. So, it's like it was just
00:59:01
running on, you know, the worst possible
00:59:03
scenario. And I actually, to be fair, I
00:59:05
actually played pretty good in the game.
00:59:06
Like, I actually had a decent game with
00:59:08
these slip-on shoes, but occasionally I
00:59:11
would run and I'd feel my heel coming
00:59:12
out of the shoe cuz I couldn't tighten
00:59:14
them with shoelaces. So, that never
00:59:16
happened ever again after that. Is there
00:59:18
is there video of that online? There
00:59:20
must be. Must be. No one knew though.
00:59:22
So, no one knew at the time. And again,
00:59:23
no one um we just laughed about it after
00:59:25
the game, but no one really knew about
00:59:27
it. No one really talked about it, but
00:59:28
yeah. Um, of all the titles you've won,
00:59:31
which one do you think would mean the
00:59:32
most to you and why? Man, it's a really
00:59:34
hard one. I think um I think the one
00:59:37
that sticks out the most was um again
00:59:39
because I single-handedly um nearly blew
00:59:42
it, but also won the game for my team.
00:59:44
So, we're in Nelson. I was playing for W
00:59:47
cutle at the time and um we were down in
00:59:49
Nelson at their away visiting teams um
00:59:52
gym and we ended up being tied ball game
00:59:56
um and I got the ball and was dribbling
00:59:58
down the court uh to try and make the
01:00:00
winning shot and it got fouled. So ended
01:00:02
up going to the free throw line and
01:00:04
having to shoot two free throws. Well,
01:00:06
usually what you do in a game is you
01:00:08
make the first I think there was like 6
01:00:10
seconds left on the clock. So made the
01:00:13
first free throw and normally what you'd
01:00:15
do is you'd miss the second on purpose
01:00:16
and I can remember making the first and
01:00:18
kind of silence the whole crowd cuz we
01:00:20
were one point up and with only point6
01:00:21
there's a chance you coming losing from
01:00:23
there is impossible and I remember
01:00:25
turning around and pro Cameron
01:00:27
high-fiving me and he goes miss the
01:00:29
second one and I was like yeah yeah and
01:00:31
in my mind and I wasn't the greatest
01:00:33
free throw shooter and I was like no I
01:00:34
want to prove to everyone I can make two
01:00:36
free throws and so I made the second
01:00:39
free throw and again the crowd was all
01:00:40
sad Well, they quickly inbounded to Phil
01:00:43
Jones and he shoved he threw like a
01:00:45
threequarter court hook shot that nearly
01:00:47
went in and if that had gone in, we
01:00:48
would have lost the game and I can
01:00:50
remember seeing it in the air watching
01:00:51
the flight of it going that's going in.
01:00:53
That's going to go in and it ended up
01:00:56
just missing. And I remember thinking to
01:00:58
myself, my own ego nearly got in the way
01:00:59
of us winning a championship cuz I
01:01:01
wanted to prove everyone that I could
01:01:02
make two free throws. and um but that
01:01:04
was it was it was a really cool to be
01:01:06
able to be responsible at the end of and
01:01:09
to be honest I didn't play that well in
01:01:10
the game so I kind of made up for it by
01:01:12
making these free throws and and winning
01:01:14
the game and yeah that was that's
01:01:16
probably one that sticks in my head the
01:01:17
most um and again anytime you win in a
01:01:19
away team's venue is really special
01:01:22
if Phil's shot had had got in you would
01:01:24
have been beating yourself up but would
01:01:26
you would have been would you have been
01:01:27
in trouble with the team for sure for
01:01:28
sure especially I mean if pro tells you
01:01:30
to miss a shot you're going to miss a
01:01:32
shot like You you don't I wouldn't have
01:01:34
I would have hate to even look at him
01:01:36
after that had happened because he had
01:01:37
told me to miss it and I didn't miss it.
01:01:39
Was he Was he mad at you regardless or
01:01:40
was he swept up in the I think everyone
01:01:42
just thought I actually made it by
01:01:43
accident cuz I wasn't that good at
01:01:44
shooting so they probably thought I made
01:01:46
it by accident. So no one was really
01:01:48
mad. Oh, you're being real
01:01:50
self-deprecating here. Um okay, so the
01:01:55
there was the um 2000 Olympics uh which
01:01:58
you you missed out on, correct? Um is
01:02:00
this a career lie? Yeah. Oh, for sure.
01:02:02
It was It was nearly a career-defining
01:02:05
moment. Yeah. I had um Honey Hi Smiler
01:02:07
on the podcast uh earlier this week and
01:02:09
um she she got a phone call saying she
01:02:12
wasn't going to the Olympics. I think it
01:02:13
was when it was in Rio. Um and she
01:02:16
processed it by going to a bottle store
01:02:18
and buying two bottles of port and she
01:02:19
was drunk before midday.
01:02:21
What was um your experience of missing
01:02:23
out? Should you have been in the squad?
01:02:25
Um were you expecting to be in the
01:02:26
squad? Yeah, I was. I was. I was playing
01:02:28
really good basketball at the time and
01:02:29
and I thought I would make the team. I
01:02:31
really did. Um, so when I didn't make
01:02:33
it, it's when you truly believe you
01:02:36
should be in a team and you don't make
01:02:37
it is when it hurts more. Um, and again
01:02:40
I but I'd never been in the team before.
01:02:42
So it would have been knocking some
01:02:43
regular um, Tall Black out of the squad.
01:02:46
Um and there was a lot the squad had a
01:02:49
kind of mixture of younger guys and
01:02:51
there was a lot of older guys um that
01:02:52
were in the squad very similar to um the
01:02:55
2002 team but a lot of the older guys
01:02:57
were coming to the the end of their
01:02:59
careers um and so and had been in the
01:03:02
Tall Blacks for some of them 10 years
01:03:04
and so when I think back realistically
01:03:07
now I think about why I thought I'd make
01:03:09
the team is cuz I was playing really
01:03:10
well but also if I think back
01:03:12
realistically I was like these guys have
01:03:13
been in the team 10 years grafting away
01:03:15
and they're still good basketball
01:03:17
players to knock them out of their spot,
01:03:19
you're going to have to be way better
01:03:20
than them, you know, like you're going
01:03:21
to have to be the single biggest
01:03:23
difference differentiator. So, was I
01:03:26
disappointed? Yes. Was it a career
01:03:28
moment? Yes. Cuz I kind of I remember
01:03:30
this is again, you talk about being
01:03:31
humbled. I remember um you know, missing
01:03:34
out on the team and and you know, going
01:03:36
home and talking to Nikki and she was
01:03:38
like, "Well, maybe you just weren't good
01:03:39
enough. Like, maybe you didn't train
01:03:40
hard enough for it." And um probably not
01:03:42
in those words. She's probably a bit
01:03:44
more sensitive than that. But it was
01:03:45
kind of my thought. I was like, man,
01:03:46
maybe I didn't, you know, what could I
01:03:48
have done? And actually from that moment
01:03:50
after that happened, I ended up saying I
01:03:53
was I didn't want to ever have that
01:03:54
feeling again. So, I was going to train
01:03:56
my ass off, but I was working full-time
01:03:58
at the time and I didn't really have the
01:04:00
time to train. So, I was like, you know
01:04:01
what? I'm going to give up my job and
01:04:03
I'm going to start my own coaching
01:04:04
business going around schools coaching
01:04:06
basketball cuz I'll have a basketball in
01:04:07
my hand all day every day and I can
01:04:09
practice in between training and and in
01:04:11
between coaching. And so that's what I
01:04:13
did. So I threw my job in and started my
01:04:15
own coaching business and started going
01:04:16
around schools teaching, you know, and
01:04:18
primary and intermediate basketball. So
01:04:20
I had a ball in my hand all day every
01:04:22
day. Um and that's yeah, I kind of that
01:04:24
was my sacrifice. And then from that
01:04:26
next year on I I made the Tall Blacks
01:04:28
and and I never left um that uniform
01:04:31
behind until I retired. So that was kind
01:04:32
of my dedication in that moment where I
01:04:34
realized that I missed out on something
01:04:36
really big. This is how much how
01:04:38
confident I was going to thought I was
01:04:39
going to make the team. Nikki had
01:04:40
already booked tickets to go to the
01:04:41
Sydney Olympics. So, we ended up going
01:04:45
to the Sydney Olympics. I ended up
01:04:46
getting a ticket and going and being a
01:04:48
spectator and watching the guys play um
01:04:50
and and supporting them from from the
01:04:52
stands because she'd already booked to
01:04:54
go cuz I was like, "Yeah, you know,
01:04:56
we're going to make the team. I was
01:04:57
going to make the team." So, it was it
01:04:59
was cool, but it was it was brutal as
01:05:01
well, you know, like it was brutal
01:05:02
knowing that you're not there. Um but I
01:05:04
I stayed ready in case someone got
01:05:06
injured, and you never know when those
01:05:07
things are going to happen. sitting in
01:05:08
the stand with this. Exactly. Well, even
01:05:10
if you had slides on, I'm sure you could
01:05:11
borrow some shoes from Exactly. Yeah.
01:05:14
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
01:05:17
Yeah. I forgot that you had a job. You
01:05:18
were like a travel agent for many years.
01:05:20
I was I was a travel agent. Yeah. Seven
01:05:22
years. Wow. Um Yeah. How was Yeah. What
01:05:26
was that like? It was I was lucky. I
01:05:29
worked for Star Sports Tours and um or
01:05:31
Stars Travel originally and then Star
01:05:32
Sports Tours. So I actually used to do
01:05:34
my main job when I was there towards the
01:05:37
end of it was doing the we had the
01:05:38
contract for Sza and so we did the super
01:05:40
rugby so I did all the super rugby teams
01:05:43
and and spring box all blacks uh wabies
01:05:46
we used to do all their travel so it was
01:05:47
pretty cool job and and then we'd take
01:05:50
in between that we'd take sports tours
01:05:51
away to like the bleders low cup and
01:05:53
Melbourne Grand Prix Melbourne open and
01:05:56
you know kind of taking tours away
01:05:57
pretty cool pretty cool job when I look
01:05:59
back fun you know I was only young when
01:06:00
I was doing it too I was you know like I
01:06:02
think I started when I was 18 and then
01:06:04
you know I was in my early 20s so taking
01:06:06
away these tour groups to you know
01:06:08
taking away like 800 people to a letter
01:06:10
of the cup game you know it's pretty
01:06:11
pretty cool job feels like it's a job
01:06:14
that that's um involves a lot of admin
01:06:16
it is a lot of admin and again probably
01:06:18
actually in a way prepared you for the
01:06:19
uh the desk jobs you've got now yeah
01:06:21
really did I mean to be honest like when
01:06:23
I was working there they were really
01:06:25
good they would allow me to go and play
01:06:26
for New Zealand and things like that so
01:06:28
they were always very good in um giving
01:06:30
me time off to go to my games I can
01:06:31
remember this This was back in the day
01:06:33
where again um if you needed to change a
01:06:36
booking you had to go into the office to
01:06:37
change the booking and I can remember
01:06:38
going on my way to a game in like
01:06:40
Deneden and I would have to go yeah I'll
01:06:43
get my boss so I'd have to ring my boss
01:06:44
who would have to go in on a Saturday
01:06:46
and drive into the office and make the
01:06:47
changes in the office. So, again, very
01:06:49
grateful that they allowed me to do
01:06:51
that. And because most bosses wouldn't
01:06:52
want to hear from a 20-year-old kid and
01:06:54
say, "I need you to go in the office and
01:06:55
do these changes like Yeah. So, um,
01:07:00
yeah, after the disappointment of the
01:07:01
2000 Sydney Olympics came, um, this must
01:07:04
be your career high, eh? 2002." Yep.
01:07:06
Yep. Absolutely. Yeah. So, fourth in the
01:07:08
world champs in 2002. Um, yeah. What are
01:07:12
your reflections on that tournament? So,
01:07:14
mixed emotions about that tournament
01:07:16
actually. So um we obviously we had
01:07:18
prepared really well for the first game
01:07:20
who was Russia who were a powerhouse in
01:07:21
basketball at the time and um I remember
01:07:23
beating them in the first game and
01:07:24
everyone at the tournament was kind of
01:07:25
like oh New Zealand upset Russia. Oh
01:07:27
that's unusual and then we kind of
01:07:29
started having more success. We beat a
01:07:31
few other teams throughout our pool play
01:07:32
and everyone was like oh this New
01:07:34
Zealand team but no one knew anything
01:07:35
about us cuz again there wasn't a lot on
01:07:37
you could find online. There was no
01:07:39
scouting and we played a different style
01:07:40
to every team. So, we kind of caught
01:07:42
teams by surprise and I remember we
01:07:44
ended up um having to cross over. I
01:07:46
think it was um Puerto Rico. We ended up
01:07:48
having to play Puerto Rico in the
01:07:50
quarterfinal and Puerto Rico hadn't
01:07:52
hadn't hadn't lost the game the whole
01:07:54
tournament. They'd beaten USA. They were
01:07:55
pretty formidable team and um but we
01:07:58
were pretty confident that we matched up
01:07:59
well with them and we could our style
01:08:01
would um be their kryptonite and so we
01:08:03
ended up beating them and making it
01:08:05
through to the semi-final and the
01:08:07
semi-final is the one that I I play over
01:08:09
and over again in my head. We played we
01:08:10
were playing Serbia in the in the grand
01:08:12
final uh sorry in the semi-final and we
01:08:14
got up big on them. We got up by like 20
01:08:16
in the first half and I remember
01:08:17
thinking we we've got them, you know,
01:08:19
we've we've got them right where we want
01:08:20
them and they went into the halftime
01:08:22
break and they came out of the halftime
01:08:24
break and just were really physical with
01:08:26
us and and really hammered us inside cuz
01:08:28
they were way bigger than us and and
01:08:30
just started getting offensive rebounds
01:08:32
and put backs and you know slowly they
01:08:34
just eating into this lead, eating and
01:08:35
eating and eating and eventually coming
01:08:37
um passing us and winning the game. And
01:08:40
I can remember that locker room. We went
01:08:42
in the locker room and and um we were
01:08:44
just like sick to our stomachs that we'd
01:08:46
let this one go. Like we should have
01:08:47
been playing for a gold medal and we
01:08:49
probably deserved to be but we just had
01:08:51
one bad half of basketball that we just
01:08:53
didn't couldn't get back. And um the
01:08:56
next day I think it was we end up having
01:08:58
to play for a bronze medal game and we
01:08:59
just weren't in the right frame of mind.
01:09:01
We were we were dejected and we
01:09:03
shouldn't have been cuz you're still
01:09:04
playing for a medal at a World Cup. you
01:09:05
think we'd be really on a high and to be
01:09:07
honest um we were playing Germany who we
01:09:09
had played earlier in the tournament and
01:09:10
they'd beat us earlier in the tournament
01:09:12
and we matched up okay with them. Um
01:09:13
they had this pretty good player called
01:09:15
Dirk Nitzky who was who was pretty good
01:09:17
and um you know he went on to um you
01:09:20
know play well in that game and yeah but
01:09:23
that was we ended up losing that game as
01:09:25
well but we look back and and think
01:09:27
about we should have meddled at that um
01:09:29
but then you reflect on being the top
01:09:31
four in the world and it's pretty
01:09:32
phenomenal really and pro Cameron was
01:09:34
named in the all-star five in that
01:09:36
tournament. Pero was unbelievable, but
01:09:38
so was, you know, we had Phil Jones was
01:09:41
amazing. Kirk Penny was amazing in that
01:09:42
tournament. Um, Shawn Marks got his eye
01:09:44
poked out halfway through the
01:09:46
tournament, so we ended up not being
01:09:47
able to play half the tournament. Had we
01:09:48
had Shawn for the whole duration of that
01:09:50
tournament, we probably would have won a
01:09:52
medal and we probably could have even
01:09:53
possibly won. Um, when we lose we lose
01:09:56
our only NBA player to an injury, you
01:09:58
know, and he was ended up watching the
01:09:59
game with glasses on for the rest of the
01:10:01
g rest of the tournament, but wasn't
01:10:03
able to step on the floor. But had we
01:10:05
had him, may maybe we we did better even
01:10:07
than what we did. But um we reflect on
01:10:10
it now and think about coming forth is
01:10:12
pretty cool. And and just the impact it
01:10:14
made back home here was was pretty
01:10:15
special. Yeah, it was massive back here.
01:10:18
But were were you guys So it was in um
01:10:20
like Mid America, right? Was it
01:10:22
Minneapolis or something? Indianapolis.
01:10:23
Indianapolis.
01:10:25
So this is like pre- internet. I don't
01:10:27
know. Maybe there was a bit of MySpace
01:10:28
or something. I don't know. But like how
01:10:30
Yeah. Did you get um like messages from
01:10:33
That's exactly what we got. Yeah. Yeah.
01:10:35
So, our manager in a team hotel room
01:10:37
with Yeah. We would our manager would
01:10:38
get on the uh the bus every day and he'd
01:10:40
stand at the front. He'd read out these
01:10:42
fax messages that people had sent us and
01:10:44
u they were funny ones. They were
01:10:45
hilarious ones in there and um and that
01:10:48
was kind of our you know, we'd drive to
01:10:49
the stadium, which was maybe a 15-minute
01:10:51
drive, and he would be reading these fax
01:10:53
messages out. And we started each day
01:10:56
these there were piles. These piles were
01:10:58
getting bigger and bigger. And so then
01:11:00
he would start passing them because they
01:11:01
got too many to read. So he just passed
01:11:02
them around and we'd all just read them
01:11:04
at different times. And the one was for
01:11:06
us, Rebel Sports sold out of basketballs
01:11:08
during that tournament like which we
01:11:10
were just like amazed. And so after that
01:11:13
tournament finished, we went um I
01:11:16
everyone went their separate ways. Some
01:11:17
came back to New Zealand. I went on
01:11:19
holiday with uh with Nikki
01:11:21
um and Jaden who was who was just young
01:11:24
then and and we went away and had a like
01:11:25
a week on holiday. And I can remember
01:11:27
coming back to Oakuckland after after
01:11:28
everything finished and I was walking
01:11:29
through the airport and people like, "Oh
01:11:31
yeah, congratulations Dylan." You know,
01:11:33
like calling me on a first-name basis
01:11:34
and I was just, "Oh, thank you." I was
01:11:36
like, "Who's that?" And Nikki go, who's
01:11:38
that? I don't know. And it was happening
01:11:40
everywhere. And I realized, oh, it's cuz
01:11:42
they've been watching the World Champs
01:11:44
and no one knew my name when I was when
01:11:46
I left New Zealand. And I came back in
01:11:47
all of a sudden everyone knew who I was
01:11:48
and was like, you know, like, you know,
01:11:50
giving clapping as we were walking
01:11:52
through and it was just me on my own
01:11:54
with my family. And that's from that
01:11:56
moment on I was like man this captured
01:11:58
that this captured the whole of the
01:12:00
nation. And so then everywhere I went
01:12:01
after that whether it was the
01:12:02
supermarket or any people would always
01:12:04
want to talk about the the world champs
01:12:05
and it was like man did everyone watch
01:12:07
these games and it felt like it cuz it
01:12:09
was again it was in the paper every day
01:12:10
and it was on TV every day and it was on
01:12:12
a I think it was on a pretty good time.
01:12:14
It was when kind of like during the day
01:12:15
and stuff so people would take time off
01:12:17
work to watch the games and yeah it was
01:12:19
pretty cool.
01:12:21
Yeah. And then you guys won Hellburg
01:12:23
awards like you won like the the overall
01:12:25
like team of the year award and I think
01:12:26
Tab won coach of the year. Coach of the
01:12:28
year. Yep. Yeah. Which never happens.
01:12:29
No. No. And um and again I I I truly
01:12:33
believe um for me I I did the I accepted
01:12:36
the trophy and and gave a speech and um
01:12:39
I truly believe cuz I did that um that
01:12:42
kind of then all of a sudden media
01:12:45
interviews were coming and I was doing
01:12:46
all the media interviews. I be I became
01:12:48
like the face of that cuz a lot of guys
01:12:51
were still away. I think Pero was off
01:12:52
playing a professional contract. Other
01:12:54
guys were everywhere. But I was in
01:12:55
Oakuckland and I was available. So I did
01:12:58
a lot of the media stuff which helped
01:12:59
build my own personal profile which I
01:13:01
didn't realize at the time. I was just
01:13:03
doing normal interviews because someone
01:13:05
asked me to do it cuz I thought well our
01:13:06
sport needs media so I'll do everything
01:13:08
that's available. Um but it helped build
01:13:10
my own personal profile from there. You
01:13:12
I suppose you're in your late 20s at the
01:13:14
time. The last thing you're thinking is
01:13:15
this is good for brand voucher. That's
01:13:17
right. Yeah. There was no such thing as
01:13:18
influencer or anything back then. I
01:13:20
don't even think we had social media
01:13:21
back then. No. Um yeah. In hindsight,
01:13:24
what do you think? What do you think it
01:13:25
was that made that team so special?
01:13:27
Again, I think we had a bunch of guys
01:13:29
that understood their roles. Um we had a
01:13:31
bunch of guys that uh were high
01:13:33
basketball IQ players. Um we bought into
01:13:36
a um a system. We worked our butts off
01:13:39
leading into that. Like we had some
01:13:41
really good coaches. Um, Tab Borwin and
01:13:43
Ned Vuchic were probably both ahead of
01:13:46
their time at the time. Um, and so they
01:13:49
brought a style of play that no one had
01:13:50
seen before on the world stage and so we
01:13:53
played differently to to most teams. Um,
01:13:56
I also think with that group, um, you
01:13:59
know, again, we just had guys who had a
01:14:01
lot of experience in the black jersey by
01:14:03
that time, even but were still kind of
01:14:04
young and fresh. And, um, like guys like
01:14:07
Phil and Kirk and Paulie and Pero had
01:14:09
all been in the and Mark Dicko had been
01:14:11
in the Tour Blacks for a few years
01:14:12
before that. Um, so they had good
01:14:15
experience under their belts, but were
01:14:16
still relatively young from a from a um,
01:14:18
athlete point of view. And so it just
01:14:21
happened that it all kind of aligned
01:14:23
nicely all at the same time. So um yeah,
01:14:26
just again a pretty special group to be
01:14:28
a part of. Yeah. When when you guys
01:14:30
connect either in real life or in one of
01:14:32
your group chats like um Yeah. How do
01:14:33
you reflect on that? Like is the
01:14:35
Yugoslavia game like a what if or I
01:14:38
think I think it's we it's funny not
01:14:40
many of us have talked about it
01:14:42
together, you know? Yeah. still like
01:14:44
it's still probably a bit of a sore
01:14:45
moment and um you know occasionally it
01:14:47
gets bored up every now and then and you
01:14:48
we all just kind of drop our heads but
01:14:51
um but again we're all still good mates.
01:14:53
We all stay in contact and not you know
01:14:55
we're typical guys. We're not not on a
01:14:57
on a regular thing but when we do we
01:14:59
kind of still have banter and laugh
01:15:00
about things together.
01:15:03
It's it's a fascinating insight e into
01:15:05
like high performance sports. I'm just
01:15:06
thinking of some other people I've had
01:15:07
on the podcast like Dion Nash um Jimmy
01:15:09
Nisham and Shane Cameron. Um and they've
01:15:12
they've all got whatifs like things
01:15:14
things from their career that haunt them
01:15:15
even though it's a long time ago. Yeah.
01:15:17
Yeah. Absolutely. It's what drives you
01:15:18
too a lot of the time like it drives you
01:15:20
to want to be better. So when you get
01:15:21
that opportunity again uh you're going
01:15:23
to you're going to capitalize on it. And
01:15:25
a lot of times you don't get that
01:15:26
opportunity again. That's the reality,
01:15:28
you know, and and I think back to 2004
01:15:30
that pretty much that same team, give or
01:15:32
take a couple players. We went to the
01:15:34
Olympics and we thought we were going to
01:15:36
do really well. We were probably playing
01:15:37
better when we went to the Olympics than
01:15:39
what we were in in 2002. And we came end
01:15:41
up coming 10th cuz we lost every game by
01:15:43
like two points here or three points and
01:15:47
like this one or two shots in every game
01:15:49
we lost. And had we capitalized on those
01:15:52
losses and won, we could have won a
01:15:54
medal at the Olympics. And that's how
01:15:55
close we were, but we just didn't win
01:15:57
the ones that counted. Whereas in 2002,
01:15:59
we won the games that counted in the
01:16:01
crossover games and stuff. So just and
01:16:03
that's sport, honestly. That's it's
01:16:05
that's why we love sport and that's why
01:16:07
we hate sport. Yeah. This was like a big
01:16:09
period for you. There's a lot going on.
01:16:10
So there's the um the World Champs in
01:16:12
2002, the launch of the Breakers in
01:16:14
2003, and the Olympics. Since you
01:16:16
mentioned the Olympics, the one that you
01:16:17
did get to go to. Um we'll talk about
01:16:19
that. So yeah, 2004, I've had Susie
01:16:22
Bates on the podcast. She was there
01:16:23
representing uh New Zealand. Yeah. The
01:16:26
women's basketball team. She had a crazy
01:16:28
story about ending up going on a a bus
01:16:30
with the US guys and hanging out with
01:16:32
LeBron and Kobe and then being in a
01:16:35
booth with David Beckham. Yeah. What was
01:16:37
your Olympic experience like? Probably
01:16:39
not not quite as good as that. Um but um
01:16:42
I loved it. The Olympics was cool. Just
01:16:44
to be with the best athletes in the
01:16:45
world was pretty special. Being in the
01:16:47
village was was special in itself. Um
01:16:49
but again being able to um for us being
01:16:53
able to just be like opening ceremony
01:16:55
was special to be able to be there with
01:16:57
all the New Zealand athletes, guys and
01:16:59
girls that you'd looked up to and wow
01:17:01
what a what a hero you know for your
01:17:03
country and then seeing them win gold
01:17:06
medals and bringing it back to to the
01:17:07
New Zealand house and things like that
01:17:09
and being able to celebrate everyone's
01:17:10
success there. Um, again, personally, it
01:17:13
wasn't a great experience from our um,
01:17:16
basketball winning p percentages or um,
01:17:19
you know, perception, but we enjoyed
01:17:22
being at the Olympics. And then when our
01:17:23
tournament finished, we we obviously
01:17:25
enjoyed the Olympic stuff, you know,
01:17:27
being around it and being able to let
01:17:28
your head down a little bit, but
01:17:30
certainly don't have any great stories
01:17:31
like that. Um, you meet anyone cool in
01:17:33
the food court? Oh, I met lots of cool
01:17:35
people, but um, but none none. We didn't
01:17:38
hang out and I wasn't fortunate enough
01:17:40
to be with LeBron or anyone like that. I
01:17:42
can remember we went out one night with
01:17:44
uh with the Spanish basketball team and
01:17:46
they had Pal Gasol was one of their um
01:17:48
main players who was an NBA player at
01:17:50
the time and I can remember um that was
01:17:53
back and we were still pretty broke
01:17:54
athletes back in those days and these
01:17:56
guys were wealthy Euro League, you know,
01:17:58
legends or NBA players and I can
01:18:00
remember they invited us over to their
01:18:02
table and they were getting bottle
01:18:03
service and we'd never heard of bottle
01:18:05
service. We didn't know what bottle
01:18:06
service was. we just go to the bar and
01:18:08
buy a drink. These guys had bottle
01:18:10
service. They were just bringing bottles
01:18:11
of vodka to the table. We'd never seen
01:18:13
that in our life. So, oh, we can just
01:18:16
drink this vodka. Like, what? Like, it
01:18:18
was that was kind of the first time we'd
01:18:20
ever known about that stuff. And um
01:18:22
again, just the difference when you're
01:18:24
with high rollers and how they how they
01:18:25
drink compared to how your casual um
01:18:27
broke athlete drinks. The other half.
01:18:30
What about the um the food court at the
01:18:32
Olympics Olympics Village? It's a
01:18:35
mythical thing. It is. And I love food.
01:18:37
Um, this is dangerous. Dangerous because
01:18:39
you can have anything you want at any
01:18:40
time of the day. Um, I know the
01:18:41
McDonald's line at the start of the
01:18:43
Olympics is very quiet. By the end of
01:18:45
the Olympics, it's there's Q's and Q's
01:18:47
of people. Um, but uh, every type of
01:18:50
food you can think of, every any drink
01:18:52
you can think of, every ice cream you
01:18:53
can think of. Like, it's so dangerous.
01:18:55
Like, it's so d and and the best thing
01:18:57
is being in there is people watching.
01:18:59
you're watching your 15 year old
01:19:01
gymnasts walk in and you know watching
01:19:03
what they eat and to the to the
01:19:04
powerlifterss walking in and what they
01:19:06
eat and and I remember I remember the
01:19:08
handball players these big European
01:19:10
handball players their plates would just
01:19:11
be overflowing in food and they'd just
01:19:14
be eating just monstrous amounts think
01:19:16
far out some people can eat. So just
01:19:19
cool to people watch and and be like,
01:19:21
"Oh, there's that, you know, high jump
01:19:23
guy that won a gold medal last night or
01:19:25
there's the, you know, pole vault or
01:19:27
whatever, you know, like it was kind of
01:19:28
like you'd go you'd recognize them cuz
01:19:30
you'd watch them on TV and then they'd
01:19:31
walk past you in the food court and
01:19:33
you're like, "Huh, here they are." You
01:19:35
know, or some of them would walk around
01:19:36
wearing their gold medals and stuff
01:19:37
like, "Yeah, it's pretty cool." Who who
01:19:40
were the stars of the New Zealand team
01:19:41
in that campaign? Was that the Ever
01:19:42
Swindell? Were they? Yes, they were in
01:19:44
that time. Yeah, I think it was. They
01:19:46
were Jeez, you're testing my memory now.
01:19:48
Um I'm trying to think who else had [ __ ]
01:19:50
21 years ago. Oh, Valerie. Yeah. I think
01:19:53
it was Valerie. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah.
01:19:58
And then the rowers, the rowers were
01:19:59
big. Um Rob Wedell maybe. Wedell. Yeah.
01:20:02
And also the Hamish Bond and Eric
01:20:05
Murray. Yeah. Incredible. Yeah. What
01:20:08
great Have you got a um the five rings
01:20:09
tattooed? I don't I thought I thought
01:20:12
that was that was mandatory. Yeah. Well,
01:20:13
it's funny. I've often seen it and I
01:20:15
thought I should get that. Um but yeah,
01:20:17
no I don't. It's so cool that you got to
01:20:19
experience that. Eh, it's really neat.
01:20:21
It's a cool experience. So, um yeah,
01:20:23
just going back again. So, the Breakers
01:20:25
launched in 2003. Did that was that
01:20:27
coincidental or did that come off the
01:20:29
back of came off the back? Yeah, it did.
01:20:31
Yep. Yep. Came off the back of 2002
01:20:32
success and um you know, there was a
01:20:35
group of um businessmen and and Jeff
01:20:37
Green that had got together and and kind
01:20:39
of talked about it and got the license
01:20:41
and yeah, made it all come to fruition.
01:20:44
Yeah. What was that like being involved
01:20:46
in starting up a franchise in a first
01:20:48
time I was ever a professional athlete.
01:20:50
So, you know, I don't even remember how
01:20:51
much my first contract was. Wasn't very
01:20:53
much. I was just excited to just be able
01:20:54
to give up my real job and and do
01:20:55
basketball full-time. So, that was
01:20:57
pretty cool to be able to do that first
01:20:59
and foremost. And I was in like say my
01:21:01
mid20s at that stage. So, um I was ready
01:21:03
to um take on take on the professional
01:21:06
lifestyle and and loved it. Loved it
01:21:08
from the get-go. It was hard hard just
01:21:10
changing to that kind of like everyday,
01:21:12
you know, daily grind and but it was was
01:21:14
fun. I loved it. Yeah. Loved every
01:21:16
moment of it. Yeah. Was the money all
01:21:18
right? Must have been okay for you to
01:21:20
give up your travel agent job. Yeah, it
01:21:21
was I mean I wasn't getting paid much to
01:21:23
be a travel agent to be honest. So it
01:21:25
wasn't hard to give that up, but no, it
01:21:26
was um it was Yeah, it paid enough to be
01:21:29
able to live on. Um but again, the the
01:21:32
money now compared to back then was is
01:21:34
night and day. H oh the um someone asked
01:21:38
me to ask you about the Yaming incident
01:21:40
and I didn't know what what they were
01:21:41
talking about. I looked it up on
01:21:42
YouTube. So um yeah, what game was this?
01:21:45
So we're playing China at the 2004
01:21:47
Olympics. Um and we needed to beat China
01:21:49
to go through to the quarterfinals, I
01:21:51
think it was. And um it was neck and
01:21:52
neck the whole way and Yaoing was
01:21:53
absolutely killing us in the game. Like
01:21:55
I think he finished with 40 points or
01:21:57
something like he had a phenomenal I
01:21:58
don't think he missed the shot the whole
01:22:00
game. And so, um, we're getting towards
01:22:03
the fourth quarter and Yaoing was on
01:22:05
four fouls. Um, so me being me, I was
01:22:08
like, how do we get the fifth foul on
01:22:10
Yaoing and we tried various things and
01:22:11
couldn't. So, um, he got a rebound and
01:22:15
he came down with it and I stole it from
01:22:16
him. And, um, as I stole it off him, he
01:22:19
like turned to me to to get it back off
01:22:21
me and I dumped it off to Shawn Marks
01:22:23
and Shawn Marks absolutely posterized
01:22:25
him with this amazing dunk right on him,
01:22:28
like right on his head. uh which no not
01:22:31
many people posterize Yao Ming and um I
01:22:33
thought here's my opportunity. So I
01:22:35
jumped in front of Yao Ming and I was
01:22:37
like in your face and I probably said a
01:22:39
few other things in your face. I knew
01:22:40
that he was going to push me 100% knew
01:22:42
it. So I just agitated him, agitate him
01:22:45
and as soon as I sort of felt him put
01:22:46
his hands on my chest I I've got this
01:22:48
guy and he just went he gave me a hard
01:22:50
push and to be honest I didn't even need
01:22:51
to flop cuz there was a hard push and he
01:22:53
just pushed me and told me to get out of
01:22:55
his face and I went sliding along the
01:22:56
floor and the referee just gave me the
01:22:58
get up. No foul called at all. So got
01:23:01
nothing. I just got up. We carried on
01:23:03
playing and then after the game we lo
01:23:05
ended up losing. Um after the game we
01:23:08
were sitting in there was like a players
01:23:09
lounge at the stadium and where you
01:23:11
going and get a drink and you get some
01:23:12
food and stuff and I was sitting in
01:23:13
there and I kind of had some ice on my
01:23:15
elbow and different parts of my body
01:23:17
which everyone does and Ya Ming came
01:23:19
walking in and saw me and he comes over
01:23:21
and he put his arm around me and he
01:23:22
goes, "Oh, was was your sore elbow from
01:23:25
me?" And I was like, "No, no, no." And I
01:23:27
was like, "No." And I kind of explained
01:23:28
to him that it was no malice. And he was
01:23:30
trying to apologize and I was like, "No,
01:23:31
not at all. I was trying to I was trying
01:23:33
to get your fifth foul." And um he said,
01:23:36
"No, I was only on three fouls." And I
01:23:38
was like, "No, you're on four fouls."
01:23:39
And so we and even to this day, I've
01:23:41
seen Yaoing several times after that and
01:23:43
we talk about it and he still swears
01:23:44
that he was on three fouls and I swear
01:23:46
he was on four fouls. But had we failed
01:23:48
him out, I think we would have won that
01:23:50
game. And so that was a pivotal moment
01:23:51
in the game that I tried something
01:23:54
crafty, but it backfired and just made
01:23:56
me look stupid because he just threw me
01:23:57
on the ground like a little kid. Oh,
01:23:58
it's an amazing clip. Yeah, it looks
01:24:00
like he's bullying you. Like you look
01:24:02
you're um a big dude and you look tiny.
01:24:05
Yeah, he is a huge man. Who who else did
01:24:08
you play? Drop some names. Um so in that
01:24:10
Olympics um I remember we played uh the
01:24:13
the US team in a in a pre-Olympic game.
01:24:15
So, I was LeBron James and um Lamar
01:24:19
Lamar ODM was in Lamar Odin was in that
01:24:20
team. I think he was in that team. Yeah.
01:24:22
Dwayne Wade was in that team. Tim
01:24:24
Duncan, Kobe, Kobe, I don't know if Kobe
01:24:27
was in that team. I don't think Kobe Oh,
01:24:28
or was he might have been in Yeah. Yeah.
01:24:30
I think Kobe was in that team. Yeah,
01:24:32
they were all pretty young, but they
01:24:33
were so so good. Um there was NBA, every
01:24:35
team had NBA players. Uh Russia, we
01:24:37
played Andre Karoleno. Um Dirk Nitzky
01:24:40
for Germany, Palasol for for Spain, you
01:24:43
know, the the list goes on. and every
01:24:45
team had NBA players on them. Um, so it
01:24:47
was a pretty much who's who at that
01:24:49
tournament.
01:24:51
Yeah. How does it feel to reflect on
01:24:52
this stuff? It's cool. It's cool to
01:24:54
reflect. It's funny. It makes you feel
01:24:56
really old to be fair, you know, like
01:24:58
now it's it seems a long time ago. And
01:25:00
it was a long time ago. You know, we're
01:25:01
in 2025 now. Far out. It's, you know,
01:25:03
like 20 odd years ago. Um, so yeah, it
01:25:06
it makes you feel old, but it's cool to
01:25:08
be able to reflect and know that you did
01:25:10
that. Um, that's that's pretty cool.
01:25:12
Yeah. You've done some stuff. Yeah. Um,
01:25:14
how's your body temperature? Should we
01:25:15
turn the air con? Yeah, chuck it on.
01:25:17
Yeah. Have a sip of water. Um, now these
01:25:20
are great. I'm loving these stories. Oh,
01:25:22
um, yeah, in two 2014 Order of Merit.
01:25:26
So, you get a medal for that. Where's
01:25:27
the medal for that? Um, it's in a drawer
01:25:29
with my drawer. The bits of Net. Yeah.
01:25:31
No, it's in the It's in a separate
01:25:32
drawer. It's funny cuz I just recently
01:25:34
did a photo shoot that they needed and I
01:25:36
had to scramble around and find it and I
01:25:37
found it in my my bedside drawer. Um,
01:25:40
but it's funny because I've got I've got
01:25:42
quite a few cats, five cats and and two
01:25:44
dogs. And so I opened up this meadow and
01:25:46
it had like dog fair and stuff all in
01:25:48
it. So I was trying to like quickly get
01:25:50
it all off before this thing. And yeah,
01:25:52
it doesn't get open very often. And um
01:25:54
it's it's cool. It's it's something I'm
01:25:56
quite proud of cuz it means it's for
01:25:58
services to basketball and I
01:26:00
basketball's been really good to me and
01:26:01
I've tried to give back to the game
01:26:02
whether it's through coaching or whether
01:26:04
it's through administration or
01:26:06
volunteering or whatever it is. And um
01:26:08
when I got that I was like that's pretty
01:26:10
special because someone's acknowledged
01:26:11
that work that I've been putting in.
01:26:13
Well this was 11 years ago and like your
01:26:15
contribution has you just got greater
01:26:17
since then. So how how does that come
01:26:19
about? Do you get like a is it a phone
01:26:21
call from someone? You get sent an
01:26:22
envelope. Yeah I think I got just sent
01:26:24
an a letter or an email I think it was
01:26:27
saying that I've been nominated um uh
01:26:29
for it and that I've been successful. So
01:26:32
again um you you don't really know who's
01:26:34
nominated you. Um, so you just know that
01:26:37
someone has nominated you and and
01:26:38
someone's approved you and I think it
01:26:41
that nomination goes to Basketball New
01:26:42
Zealand and they approve it. Um, so
01:26:44
yeah, pretty pretty cool that they
01:26:46
approved it and and yeah, here I am with
01:26:48
a few letters after my name. So good.
01:26:51
Sorry for not introducing you by using
01:26:52
the letters at the Um, and so you got a
01:26:55
government house. Who who goes? Nikki.
01:26:56
Yeah, you go. Yeah, Nikki goes. My mom
01:26:58
and dad were there as well. So we all
01:26:59
got to um you go you get to have like uh
01:27:02
5 minutes um out the back, you know, and
01:27:04
have a chat with um Governor General.
01:27:07
Governor General. Yeah. So it was cool
01:27:09
uh to be able to do that. And I remember
01:27:11
my dad's can talk even more than I
01:27:13
could. And I remember saying to dad,
01:27:14
"Our time's up, Dad. We got to go." And
01:27:15
he just wanted to keep talking and I
01:27:17
could see him looking at the door like,
01:27:19
"Get this guy out of here." You know, so
01:27:20
it was quite funny. Should that So
01:27:23
something like that like I I don't think
01:27:24
you can um just imagine, you know, how
01:27:27
powerful it is for your parents. Yeah.
01:27:28
Absolutely. I mean, they're super proud.
01:27:30
They they again still um you know, they
01:27:32
love basketball, but they love following
01:27:34
my journey. And now my son Jaden's doing
01:27:37
it. They love watching his games and
01:27:39
following his journey as well. And you
01:27:41
know, they just they just ultimately
01:27:43
really proud not only of me, but the my
01:27:45
two older brothers as well and their
01:27:47
journeys in and different walks of life.
01:27:48
But again, just proud parents. Yeah.
01:27:51
Well, that's so cool. God, I've I've
01:27:52
been chaotic in this podcast. I'm sorry.
01:27:54
It feels like it's gone in terms of a
01:27:56
timeline all over the place. I just
01:27:58
remembered the um yeah the the the Perth
01:28:00
year. So you're at the Blake Breakers.
01:28:02
You're a proud member of the BNZ
01:28:04
Breakers. Um and then yeah, what
01:28:06
happens? How do you end up in Perth? Do
01:28:08
the Breakers not want you anymore?
01:28:09
Breakers didn't want me. So after two
01:28:10
years of failure, they basically had a
01:28:12
bit of a clean out to be fair. And they
01:28:14
um you know, they basically were like,
01:28:16
you know, there's a few they basically
01:28:17
needed to make some changes. So they
01:28:19
brought Andre Lammanus as coach and and
01:28:21
he wanted to go in a different direction
01:28:22
and and I wasn't part of the direction
01:28:24
he wanted to go in. And so they said,
01:28:25
you know, we don't want we don't have a
01:28:27
spot for you going forward and don't
01:28:29
have a new contract to renew. So I then
01:28:31
I took the opportunity to go to Perth
01:28:33
who was a pretty successful franchise at
01:28:35
the time and um went over to Perth and
01:28:37
as you mentioned earlier like I left on
01:28:39
my own initially. So Nikki and the kids
01:28:41
were back in school. So they were here
01:28:43
um they end up coming during the school
01:28:44
holidays and stuff. So again, living
01:28:46
apart was pretty tough, but again, uh,
01:28:48
being able to go to a new team.
01:28:50
Sometimes being there on your own, just
01:28:51
being able to get into the system and
01:28:53
the flow of things was really valuable.
01:28:55
Um, had a good season in Perth. Um, we
01:28:58
made it to the semi-finals and lost in
01:29:00
the semi-finals to the eventual winners,
01:29:01
which was Melbourne, and then, um, got
01:29:04
recruited to be in Brisbane. So, I love
01:29:05
my time in Perth. Love Perth. Perth as a
01:29:08
place, but we hardly had any visitors
01:29:09
while we're there. That was so I've got
01:29:11
siblings over there. It's so far away.
01:29:12
So far, and it's expensive, you know.
01:29:14
So, so the same distance almost as a
01:29:16
flight to Hawaii. Yeah, it really is.
01:29:18
But you're still somewhere in Australia.
01:29:20
That's right. And so, um, when I got the
01:29:22
opportunity and got recruited by
01:29:24
Brisbane, I was kind of like, ah, should
01:29:26
I be closer, you know, be closer to New
01:29:28
Zealand. It's only a three, three and a
01:29:29
half hour flight. And I knew we'd have
01:29:32
more visitors and we more family
01:29:33
especially. And so, so we made the tough
01:29:36
call to leave Perth and go to Brisbane.
01:29:38
Um, and we spent two seasons in Brisbane
01:29:40
and, um, was lucky enough to win a
01:29:42
championship in Brisbane. So, um, and
01:29:45
then funny story that I was talking
01:29:46
about yesterday actually with the with
01:29:48
the Blackwells was the Breakers wanted
01:29:51
to recruit CJ Brutin from from Brisbane.
01:29:54
And so I remember them ringing CJ and
01:29:56
and and and talking to him about coming
01:29:58
to New Zealand. And CJ said, "I'm not
01:30:00
going to come to New Zealand unless you
01:30:01
sign Dylan. Like he's he's the best
01:30:03
teammate I've ever had, you know, like I
01:30:05
need him on the team next to me." And so
01:30:07
he got off the phone, he rang me and he
01:30:09
said, "I've just told the Breakers they
01:30:10
need to recruit you." Cuz he knew I
01:30:12
wanted to be back home playing. I wanted
01:30:13
to play for the Breakers. That's who I
01:30:14
loved. And he's like, he's like,
01:30:16
"They're going to call you." And I was,
01:30:18
and I got off thinking, "No player would
01:30:20
ever do that." He's like, "I've told
01:30:21
them I'm not coming unless you sign
01:30:22
first." And so sure enough, like 30
01:30:25
minutes later, Richard Clark calls me
01:30:27
and he's like, "We want to recruit you
01:30:28
back home." And I was like, "My god,
01:30:30
this guy's for real." So I can remember
01:30:32
saying to Nikki, "Oh, look, you know,
01:30:34
the Breakers want me back. You know, I'm
01:30:36
going to hold out cuz I want to." And
01:30:38
she's like, "No way. We're going home.
01:30:39
We're just whatever they offer you, just
01:30:40
take it like 50 bucks a Exactly. Yeah.
01:30:42
just take it. We're going home. Um so
01:30:44
yeah, long story short, um I signed with
01:30:46
the Breakers and CJ Brutin signed with
01:30:48
the Breakers and and came home and so
01:30:50
yes, I'd spent three three years in
01:30:52
Australia playing. Um kind of going back
01:30:55
and forth. I was still playing for
01:30:56
Oakland and stuff in between. So I was
01:30:58
coming home for for months at a time and
01:30:59
then going back. Um but being back home
01:31:02
with the Breakers was amazing to be able
01:31:04
to come back to a club that meant so
01:31:05
much to me and um and then obviously
01:31:07
then from there we had those successful
01:31:09
seasons and and won and and my my
01:31:12
seasons were we won three championships
01:31:14
in a row and my last game was our third
01:31:16
championship. So I got to go out on a
01:31:18
high and funnily enough I we won that in
01:31:20
Perth so for in front of a lot of
01:31:22
friends and stuff that I still had over
01:31:24
there. Yeah, Perth Wildats. Eh, that's
01:31:27
it.
01:31:27
What was it like um playing for the
01:31:30
Wildcats against the Breakers? It was
01:31:33
weird. It was funny cuz I had I had fans
01:31:36
um in New Zealand here and and family
01:31:38
members that would bring signs to the
01:31:40
games when we'd play the Breakers and
01:31:41
they'd be cheering for me for the
01:31:42
Wildcats and and you know, you can
01:31:44
imagine how that goes down in a in a
01:31:46
crowd. Um it was always always had extra
01:31:49
motivation playing the Breakers, always
01:31:50
cuz I wanted to prove to them that
01:31:52
they'd made the wrong decision to get
01:31:53
rid of me. So, I would take the team
01:31:56
talks before we'd play the Breakers. And
01:31:57
I'd say I'd say, "Fellas, I need you
01:32:00
guys to play at your best today because
01:32:02
I want to prove to the Breakers that,
01:32:04
you know, they they should have had me
01:32:05
on their team." And, you know, I'd give
01:32:06
this motivational speech about why I
01:32:08
needed to beat the Breakers. And um and
01:32:10
so I would always go extra hard against
01:32:12
the Breakers and it would backfire cuz,
01:32:15
you know, anytime you're in a game where
01:32:16
you try and put extra stuff into it, it
01:32:18
never it never pay you just got to play
01:32:19
your game. I'd try and do stuff I wasn't
01:32:21
capable of and I'd end up like getting
01:32:23
in foul trouble or something cuz I'd try
01:32:25
too hard and I end up over time I'd just
01:32:28
relax and play the game, but I had so
01:32:30
much motivation cuz I wanted them to see
01:32:32
I was good to recruit me back to the
01:32:33
Breakers. And so when I got the
01:32:35
opportunity to come back, it was a
01:32:36
no-brainer for me. Yeah, it must have
01:32:39
felt like coming home. 100% was coming
01:32:41
home. I mean, when you play for the
01:32:42
Breakers, you play with a little bit
01:32:45
more um pride than you do just playing
01:32:48
for a normal club team. It's just
01:32:49
natural. It feels cuz you're the only
01:32:51
you're like a New Zealand team playing
01:32:52
in a in a professional competition. So
01:32:54
you have that extra motivation. You're
01:32:56
playing for a country. Mhm. And um when
01:32:58
you finished with the um the Breakers,
01:33:00
BNZ Breakers, um they retired your
01:33:03
number 24. Yeah. What does that mean for
01:33:05
someone that's you're not huge into
01:33:07
basketball? The highest honor that you
01:33:09
can bestow on a player, right? It is.
01:33:10
And and it's something I'm incredibly
01:33:12
proud of. again I I spent a lot of um
01:33:15
you know hours honing my skills for the
01:33:18
Breakers to be successful at the
01:33:19
Breakers. So to be honored by the club
01:33:21
and retiring my jersey was the ultimate
01:33:23
for me and something again I think about
01:33:25
a few things in my career that I'm super
01:33:27
proud of that is definitely one of them.
01:33:29
Um cuz just because you're good at
01:33:31
basketball that doesn't retire your
01:33:33
jersey. You have to be out have made an
01:33:34
impact through the club um through
01:33:36
whether it be both on the court but also
01:33:38
off the court as well. And so the
01:33:41
criteria basically is can you tell the
01:33:42
breakers history without mentioning this
01:33:44
player and that's generally how you get
01:33:46
and bestowed upon. So again very lucky
01:33:49
to be up there with Paul Hinata Hinady
01:33:51
and um CJ Brutin and and the Black
01:33:54
family up there as well. So, um, and
01:33:56
there'll be others to come. Um, guys
01:33:58
that will be, you know, guys like your
01:34:00
Mikavakonas and your Tom Aocrombies will
01:34:02
100% have their jerseys retired, um, by
01:34:05
this club. And, yeah, the the the bins
01:34:08
and breakers mean the world to me and
01:34:10
that's why I'm so excited to be back.
01:34:13
Yeah. Was that emotional when they
01:34:14
retired the number? It was. It was
01:34:16
emotional. Yeah. And it was emotional
01:34:17
because it's almost like that's the
01:34:19
closing of your career, too. You know,
01:34:21
like that's kind of like curtains have
01:34:22
closed. there's no there's no coming
01:34:24
back from that. Um so for me that that
01:34:28
was the end of my kind of like
01:34:29
professional playing. I ended up playing
01:34:31
a few more years um in New Zealand in
01:34:33
the New Zealand NBL which is
01:34:34
semi-professional, but that was the end
01:34:36
of me being a a basically a professional
01:34:38
basketball player. Yeah. What was that
01:34:40
transition like going from being a
01:34:41
player to not being a player anymore
01:34:43
when it's all basically all you'd know
01:34:44
in your adult life? It's tough, man.
01:34:46
Like it really is tough. And I remember
01:34:48
and I was fortunate enough I I went into
01:34:49
a role straight away with the Breakers.
01:34:51
they offered me a role in the office.
01:34:52
So, I went was able to go back to a club
01:34:54
again in a club that I was I was
01:34:56
familiar with and knew the people in the
01:34:58
office, but you feel like um you feel
01:35:03
like a bit of an impostor in there. You
01:35:05
feel like you shouldn't be up there with
01:35:06
these people cuz you don't have
01:35:08
basically the skills that they've got.
01:35:10
You have to learn everything on the fly.
01:35:12
And I'm not formally educated. I've got
01:35:14
a certificate in travel studies. So, I
01:35:16
don't have a bachelor's degree or
01:35:17
anything like that. So everything I've
01:35:19
earned is just through hard work and um
01:35:21
and learning and I believe I'm a good
01:35:24
learner and when I'm passionate about
01:35:25
something I'll learn faster. So um for
01:35:28
me it was it was really tough going into
01:35:30
that office environment. But I also
01:35:31
loved it cuz it was for a club that I
01:35:33
cared about.
01:35:34
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was going to be
01:35:36
the next thing I I was going to ask like
01:35:37
did did you enjoy it or did you feel I
01:35:39
don't know like a sense of FOMO about
01:35:41
what's going on on the court or just a
01:35:43
sense of boredom because it's you know
01:35:45
it's a very very different job still in
01:35:47
the basketball universe but it's very
01:35:50
different to being a professional player
01:35:52
very different and the worst thing is in
01:35:53
our office we've got a window that looks
01:35:54
out onto the court so it's like brutal
01:35:56
you're watching your mates run up and
01:35:58
down and laughing and having fun and
01:35:59
you're there on your computer typing
01:36:01
away like it's actually pretty brutal.
01:36:03
Um, the thing I noticed most though was
01:36:05
wearing dress shoes. Like I've worn
01:36:07
sneakers my whole life and all of a
01:36:09
sudden you're going into a job where
01:36:10
you're wearing dress shoes every day.
01:36:11
Man, your feet are sore. Those bloody
01:36:13
dress shoes, man.
01:36:15
I tell you. So now I try and wear
01:36:17
sneakers as much as I can. Yeah. So the
01:36:20
recent part of your admin career, um,
01:36:22
uh, 2016 to 2019 break as general
01:36:25
manager. Yeah. How was the imposter
01:36:28
syndrome when you when you got that job?
01:36:29
Yeah, it was again same thing because
01:36:31
again I'd kind of uh worked my way
01:36:33
through the commercial side of the
01:36:35
business and then into that GM role and
01:36:37
um you know I was very grateful that I
01:36:39
probably at the time I got given the GM
01:36:40
role it was Richard Clark had just left
01:36:43
um and the timing probably wasn't right
01:36:45
for me to go in that role but the
01:36:46
Blackwell family um took a chance on me
01:36:49
to go into that role and put some
01:36:50
support around me to help support me
01:36:52
into that role. So um but I learned so
01:36:54
much going into that role um learned
01:36:56
from a lot of failures. I learned, you
01:36:58
know, so much and I think now I'm kind
01:37:01
of almost going full circle back into a
01:37:03
similar role and um what I've learned
01:37:06
now from my time at Basketball New
01:37:07
Zealand, I'm I'm far more skilled than
01:37:09
what I was in those early days. So, I'm
01:37:11
glad to know I'm going back a far more
01:37:13
polished executive going into that role.
01:37:16
Yeah. What are your top priorities in
01:37:18
this new role? I think the big thing um
01:37:21
is is getting this club um to be a club
01:37:24
that's desirable. Like for me, when
01:37:25
you're recruiting players, it needs to
01:37:27
be a place where people want to be. So,
01:37:29
we need to ensure we're putting
01:37:30
everything um in place that the players
01:37:33
feel like they've got everything they
01:37:34
need to be successful. There's nothing
01:37:36
worse than when you're on a team and you
01:37:38
don't have the tools you need to be
01:37:39
successful and you look across the road
01:37:40
and they've got it across the road, but
01:37:42
you don't have it. So, we want to be
01:37:44
able to build a culture within the group
01:37:46
that makes people want to be there, but
01:37:47
also then to have the resources
01:37:49
available to them to be the best that
01:37:50
they can be. Yeah.
01:37:53
This isn't a breakers specific question,
01:37:56
but yeah. Why is New Zealand basketball
01:37:58
so underfunded? Yeah, it's I mean it's a
01:38:01
I mean I just think sport in general in
01:38:03
this country is underfunded.
01:38:05
Basketball's so popular, right? Oh, it's
01:38:06
huge. I mean it's uh it will it will be
01:38:08
the number one sport very shortly as far
01:38:10
as participation numbers go. Like the
01:38:12
numbers are going through the roof.
01:38:13
Probably what's holding it back is
01:38:14
there's not enough venues. Um that's
01:38:15
probably the biggest single biggest
01:38:17
thing. But and I think again I think the
01:38:19
the funding um is predicated towards
01:38:21
Olympic sports. um and and and Olympic
01:38:24
success. And I think at the moment with
01:38:25
the way the criteria is set, it's
01:38:27
probably not set for sports like
01:38:29
football and and basketball and and
01:38:31
hockey and those sports. So yeah. Oh,
01:38:33
thanks for that answer. Um what's one
01:38:36
common thread you've seen with
01:38:37
successful teams, whether it's um on the
01:38:39
court or in the boardroom? Yeah, I think
01:38:40
um I think you have to be it has to be
01:38:42
something more than just the sport
01:38:43
you're playing. I think you have to have
01:38:45
a sense of belonging outside of just
01:38:47
being good at the sport. And I think um
01:38:49
that's a crucial part, but also think
01:38:51
playing a role like everyone has a role
01:38:53
to play within sport. And um I think the
01:38:56
teams I've been involved in that have
01:38:58
been successful have had really good
01:39:00
defined roles for each person on the
01:39:02
team. And that's right through to the
01:39:03
off court as well. if you do your role
01:39:05
really well and you're in a crucial um
01:39:08
piece of the puzzle to be able to be
01:39:10
successful. And I think again right down
01:39:12
to your role players to your superstars.
01:39:14
Everyone has to do their job and if
01:39:15
everyone does their job well it's going
01:39:17
to put you in the best chance to
01:39:18
succeed. And what about a leader? What
01:39:20
makes a great leader? I think uh again
01:39:22
leadership is um there's there's
01:39:23
multiple ways of leading. So um there's
01:39:26
guys who lead by example, there's guys
01:39:28
who lead by their voice, but there's
01:39:29
guys who lead by listening and learning
01:39:31
and then getting better themselves. So I
01:39:33
think um leadership is a is a
01:39:35
combination of all those things. So you
01:39:37
might have different styles like for
01:39:38
example um Mavicona was a was a really
01:39:42
good leader and he was a lead by example
01:39:44
left his you know he would die out on
01:39:47
the court for you you know and you knew
01:39:49
that and so you went to battle with him
01:39:50
knowing that he would do that but he
01:39:52
wasn't a super vocal guy in the locker
01:39:54
room until you needed him to be and then
01:39:56
he would blow up and then when he blew
01:39:57
up everyone stopped and listened and and
01:39:59
was like wow Mick is speaking so listen
01:40:02
um and then I was probably more of a a
01:40:05
vocal leader constant I was a constant
01:40:07
voice in the locker room and tried to
01:40:09
constantly keep people on the right page
01:40:11
of where we were going. Um, but I spoke
01:40:14
a lot. So guys were probably tuning out
01:40:16
half the time. Um, who knows? But you
01:40:19
you kind of need that constant voice as
01:40:21
well to to make sure you you are going
01:40:23
in the right direction and and be an
01:40:24
extension of the coaching staff as well
01:40:26
to be able to make sure the message
01:40:27
you're getting through to your team is
01:40:29
what the coaches would be saying, but
01:40:30
maybe you've got the ear of the players
01:40:32
more than the coaches do. Yeah. Bet you
01:40:34
being outspoken, isn't that part of the
01:40:35
reason they um they they got rid of you
01:40:37
to birth? Yeah, it is. It is 100%. Yeah.
01:40:40
That's so offensive. Yeah. I mean, I was
01:40:42
pretty outspoken that we were failing
01:40:43
and why we were failing and and I made
01:40:45
sure I made it clear why we were doing
01:40:47
it. And it's funny because all the
01:40:49
things I was saying ended up becoming
01:40:52
come to fruition eventually over the
01:40:53
years. And so by the time I come came
01:40:56
back, it was all sorted like so it was
01:40:58
kind of had I not said that would it
01:41:00
still have happened possibly. But
01:41:01
sometimes you've got to you've got to be
01:41:03
put yourself out of the equation and
01:41:06
just speak your mind and for the greater
01:41:08
good of the club.
01:41:10
Yeah. So, we're back on this thing
01:41:12
again, but how like how was your mental
01:41:14
health at that time? Like you you must
01:41:15
have felt really I'm just just I suppose
01:41:17
I'm projecting, but I'm imagining I'm
01:41:19
you like you you're you're no longer
01:41:21
wanted by this team that you love.
01:41:23
You're 7 hours away from your family and
01:41:25
in Perth and a team that has been your
01:41:27
fiercest enemy.
01:41:29
um basically just for standing up for
01:41:31
like what you believe in and what's
01:41:33
right. Were you did you fall into some
01:41:35
sort of a depression or not really? Nah,
01:41:37
I mean I'm a pretty I consider myself a
01:41:39
pretty resilient guy. Um like I again I
01:41:42
I use goals and I use like um
01:41:46
you know motivations to keep me going.
01:41:48
And for me I wanted to I'd worked so
01:41:51
hard to be a professional athlete. I
01:41:53
wasn't about after two years to give it
01:41:54
all away. I wanted to actually really
01:41:56
make it. And so when I went to Perth, I
01:41:59
really focused on my game and try to get
01:42:01
better. And again, a lot of it was
01:42:02
motivation to show the Breakers that I'd
01:42:04
made a mistake. Um, and but for me
01:42:06
personally, it was becoming the best
01:42:07
player I could possibly be. And then by
01:42:10
by the season finishing in Perth, I was
01:42:12
kind of over the Breakers stuff. Like I
01:42:14
was kind of like I'd found a home in
01:42:15
Perth and and Perth wanted to resign me
01:42:17
as well. So I was quite honored that the
01:42:19
club who had gone to had wanted to
01:42:21
resign me and were offering me a bigger
01:42:23
contract and all the rest of it. And
01:42:24
then Brisbane had offered me a bigger
01:42:25
contract as well. And so it was kind of
01:42:27
like, oh man, I'm actually valued by
01:42:29
these other people. So I felt I felt the
01:42:31
love from these from from both Perth and
01:42:33
Brisbane that, you know, that they
01:42:35
they've given me opportunities to be
01:42:37
able to go and play for both these
01:42:38
clubs. And so it was hard leaving Perth
01:42:40
cuz I actually the people there were
01:42:42
great. Um I enjoyed my time there. My
01:42:44
teammates were great. You never like to
01:42:46
play one season and leave because it's
01:42:48
it was a good situation, but it just
01:42:50
wasn't close enough to home. and and I
01:42:52
explained that to them and it sounds it
01:42:54
sounds like an easy excuse to leave but
01:42:56
it was actually a legitimate excuse.
01:42:59
Yeah. Yeah. That must been weird. So
01:43:00
suddenly you've got like enemies um in
01:43:02
the New Zealand crowd and enemies in the
01:43:04
crowd. Yeah. Yeah. Well, good on you. I
01:43:08
suppose that's what like separates you
01:43:10
from a lot of other people that champion
01:43:11
sort of mindset like you know even
01:43:13
though it's a negative situation and it
01:43:15
could crush a lot of people um you just
01:43:17
use it as fuel. I'm a I'm a glass half
01:43:19
full kind of guy. I believe I see the
01:43:21
positive in everything. Um even when
01:43:23
something bad's happening, I you know
01:43:25
and and it frustrates Nikki, my wife,
01:43:27
like when I always try and find a
01:43:28
positive in something. She's like
01:43:30
sometimes it's okay that it's just a
01:43:32
negative, you know, and I go, "Yeah, but
01:43:33
then you got to find the positive to
01:43:34
move out of the negative space." So,
01:43:36
don't get me wrong, I get down. I get
01:43:38
down on things, you know, and things do
01:43:39
upset me and things things do cut me
01:43:41
deep, but I move on pretty quickly. I
01:43:43
forgive and I move on pretty quickly. Um
01:43:46
and um you know my glass half full
01:43:49
mentality is that I try and find a
01:43:50
positive in everything and and there was
01:43:52
a positive going to Perth. I grew as a
01:43:54
player and as a person and and I
01:43:55
developed and when I came back I was
01:43:57
better than what I was when I left. So
01:43:58
it's it all worked out in the end of the
01:44:00
day. It was just a long route to go back
01:44:02
to where I wanted to be. Yeah. How are
01:44:04
you with um like vulnerability like
01:44:06
having having like you know deep and
01:44:08
serious and potentially uncomfortable
01:44:09
conversations with um with people? Yeah.
01:44:12
I think I'm pretty good. So, I think I'm
01:44:13
I've I've got a lot of empathy. Um, and
01:44:16
again, that's why when I was portrayed
01:44:18
as this kind of like thug or whatever.
01:44:20
Um, I' I didn't enjoy that because
01:44:23
that's not who I am. I've got a lot of
01:44:24
empathy for people. I care about people
01:44:26
and I want to help people. I'm I'm the
01:44:28
sort of person I'm I try and be as
01:44:32
selfless as I can and I want to make
01:44:33
sure people around me feel the love um
01:44:36
and feel that I'm supporting them. But
01:44:37
that's both from a, you know, whether
01:44:39
I'm in business or whether in
01:44:40
friendships. I want my friends to feel
01:44:42
like I care about their lives and and
01:44:44
their families. Um, and the same with my
01:44:45
own family, I want them to feel like I
01:44:47
care about them and that they're the
01:44:49
most important thing to me. So, that
01:44:51
stuff's really important, but also when
01:44:52
people are doing it tough, I like to be
01:44:55
there to support them cuz I've got an
01:44:56
empathetic side that, you know, when
01:44:58
someone needs something, I want to be
01:44:59
there to support them. Yeah. Well, we've
01:45:01
been chatting for almost a couple of
01:45:02
hours and that's definitely the vibe I
01:45:04
get about, you know, the Dylan Boucher
01:45:05
that's been sitting in front of me
01:45:06
today. Awesome. Yeah. Um, what are your
01:45:09
best and worst habits? Uh, my worst
01:45:12
habit is, uh, biting my fingernails. I
01:45:14
still do it. Um, hold them up. We show
01:45:16
them. Yeah. Oh, they're not Oh, some of
01:45:19
them are quite bad. Do they bleed in the
01:45:22
corners? No, I'm not I'm not that guy.
01:45:23
No, I have I have limits. Um, but I The
01:45:26
only time I stopped biting my nails was
01:45:27
before my wedding cuz we needed to do
01:45:29
the wedding hand. So, you can stop. I
01:45:31
can stop. Um, but it's and it's not um
01:45:35
it is a nervous thing. I think I think
01:45:37
it's my, you know, like it's a it's a
01:45:38
nervous twitch, but again, I I'm a
01:45:40
picker. I pick up my nails and things
01:45:42
like that and then I make them uneven
01:45:43
and then so I bite them to try and file
01:45:45
them. So, it's a really disgusting
01:45:47
habit. I do it as well. I I tell people
01:45:49
I'm like a recreational biter. Like I
01:45:50
never bite. Yeah. Yours yours are pretty
01:45:52
good. But it's for me it's like a
01:45:54
concentration or a thinking thing. It
01:45:55
is. I often often and you know it's
01:45:57
funny now I'm on teams or Zoom meetings
01:45:59
all the time. So now I can see myself on
01:46:01
camera and I'm like, "Get your hand out
01:46:02
of your mouth and it reminds me." But
01:46:03
when I'm when I'm not on camera or
01:46:05
anything, I'm just, you know, again, I'm
01:46:06
thinking and I'm But it's embarrassing
01:46:08
like we're middleagers like this is
01:46:10
something that kids do. Yeah. Yeah. Um,
01:46:12
and what are my good habits? Um, I think
01:46:16
for me again I I go back to um just I
01:46:20
always I'm I'm always trying to be a
01:46:23
good person and and I'm and I try really
01:46:25
hard and I fail miserably most of the
01:46:26
time, but I try and be a good person and
01:46:28
I try and keep everyone happy and
01:46:30
sometimes that comes back to burn you.
01:46:31
Um, but I like to keep people happy. I'm
01:46:33
a I'm a people pleaser and I like
01:46:35
people. I enjoy people and I enjoy
01:46:36
company. So, I liked having friendships
01:46:39
and stuff, but sometimes it does come
01:46:40
back and burn you sometimes. Being such
01:46:43
a good dude, has that made it hard in
01:46:44
the management positions where often you
01:46:46
have to have Absolutely. Yeah. Yes. And
01:46:48
it's funny, I'm getting removed enough
01:46:51
whereas I'm still got some guys who are
01:46:53
my teammates or my mates. Um, and that's
01:46:56
really hard. You know, having hard
01:46:57
conversations with people is really,
01:46:58
really hard when they when they when you
01:47:00
have a relationship with them. I'm
01:47:02
getting to the point now where I don't
01:47:04
have they're not my people I've played
01:47:05
with and so it makes it a little bit
01:47:07
easier but still they're still human
01:47:09
beings and sometimes you're crushing
01:47:10
dreams um when you're having hard
01:47:12
conversations with people. Yeah. Yeah.
01:47:14
How how is that suddenly becoming the
01:47:15
boss of some of your old old mates? Did
01:47:18
you have to like I don't know like avoid
01:47:21
social functions and I think you've got
01:47:23
to know when to leave social functions.
01:47:25
I think that's the I I never try and
01:47:27
avoid them, but like for example, if I'm
01:47:30
um you know going somewhere, I'll have a
01:47:33
beer or have a couple beers or whatever
01:47:34
and then I'll know my time and and cuz
01:47:37
they they don't want the boss there all
01:47:39
the time, you know, like it's and so I
01:47:40
feel that. So it's like be social but
01:47:43
then know when to leave I think is
01:47:44
crucial. Um and that's I've tried to get
01:47:46
that balance right, but usually when you
01:47:48
leave the credit card goes with you. So
01:47:50
it's so sometimes they do want you to
01:47:52
stay. Yeah. Um, when was the last time
01:47:55
you cried? Um, I'm actually a serial
01:47:58
crier. Um, are you like happy tears when
01:48:02
I watch TV programs? I'm a shocker. Like
01:48:04
it's TV programs get me, man. And um I I
01:48:08
often have tears running in my face in
01:48:09
movies or or or TV programs. And um I
01:48:13
don't know what it is. It just strikes a
01:48:15
chord. And um there was a um program
01:48:19
that used to be on um and I can't even
01:48:22
remember the name of it now, but David
01:48:23
Lass used to Oh, I've got him coming in
01:48:25
for a podcast. Yeah. It's um there's a
01:48:27
new season. It's called David Lass
01:48:29
investigates now. Yeah. Yeah. So, he
01:48:30
would do go and find your families or
01:48:32
whatever and man, it would just be
01:48:33
tearjerkers for me. I'd be struggling
01:48:35
and I think maybe in a in a previous
01:48:37
life I was left behind as a child or
01:48:39
something or something happened, but I
01:48:41
find those really emotional. Um, and I
01:48:43
think about how close I am with my own
01:48:45
family and um, with my own kids and wife
01:48:48
and and also with my brothers and my mom
01:48:49
and dad and I think about those people
01:48:51
that don't have that and and and I feel
01:48:54
for them. I feel sorry for them and then
01:48:55
when they try and connect with their
01:48:57
family or they finally connect with
01:48:58
someone that they haven't been with for
01:49:00
20 years, it breaks my heart and so it
01:49:02
makes me quite emotional. So I quite cry
01:49:04
quite often but not I don't cry. It's
01:49:07
normally not to do with me. It's it's my
01:49:09
emotional side I think coming out. So
01:49:10
tears have got to come out eventually
01:49:12
and that's when they come out. It's a
01:49:13
great emotion though. E something you
01:49:15
should lean into. Were you were you
01:49:16
always like that or has that come with
01:49:18
age? I think I've always been like that.
01:49:20
I've never been afraid to cry. Um and um
01:49:23
but again it's usually been crying um
01:49:25
either happy tears or like my kids like
01:49:28
when I start talking about my kids I
01:49:29
have a lump comes up in my throat
01:49:30
because they just they're my world you
01:49:33
know and so when they when I'm talking
01:49:34
about them I get emotional about them.
01:49:36
And so when I see them, you know, like
01:49:38
succeed in something, it doesn't have to
01:49:40
be sport, it might just be they do well
01:49:41
in a test, I'm so proud of them that
01:49:43
they've especially when I see that
01:49:44
they've worked hard and they they see
01:49:46
the outcome of working hard. It's
01:49:48
actually really pleasing. Yeah. Oh. Um
01:49:51
Yeah. I just remember there's something
01:49:52
else I read about you that you and I
01:49:53
have in common. We we both love um baths
01:49:57
and candles. Scented candles. I love a
01:49:59
bath. I had a bath last night. Yeah.
01:50:02
This has always been a thing. So yeah.
01:50:05
Yeah. Yeah. It's um it's a very feminine
01:50:07
sort of trait, I get told. But I love
01:50:09
it. I'm a sucker for it. Absolutely. I
01:50:11
love a bath and love. Yeah. Burning a
01:50:12
candle. Yeah. That's Yeah. There's
01:50:14
nothing wrong with it. That's You lean
01:50:16
into these feminine traits. Um what are
01:50:18
your biggest flaws? Um my biggest flaws
01:50:22
I um I often don't get the balance right
01:50:24
with work and and home life. Um I I
01:50:26
sometimes cuz again I'm a people pleaser
01:50:29
so I try and you know my work will
01:50:31
overtake me sometimes and and sometimes
01:50:33
you know my family feel it and you know
01:50:35
put I put hours and hours into my jobs
01:50:38
um that I do and sometimes that can that
01:50:40
can take its toll on the family and so
01:50:42
there's times where I feel like I
01:50:43
haven't been home cuz I've been away or
01:50:45
you know and I know it's no different to
01:50:47
a lot of people but I spend a lot of my
01:50:49
time on the road playing basketball and
01:50:51
my kids have not seen me a lot and so I
01:50:54
try and be there as much as I for them,
01:50:55
but sometimes I don't feel like it's
01:50:57
enough. Uh, what about future goals?
01:50:59
Like where do you turn um 50 just in
01:51:02
between Christmas and New Year this
01:51:04
year? Where do you see yourself at say
01:51:05
55 60? I'd love to say retired. No, but
01:51:10
realistically, oh, I don't know.
01:51:11
Probably not. I say that. But how old
01:51:13
were you were your parents when they
01:51:14
retired? They were pretty young. Um,
01:51:16
they were they've had some pretty good
01:51:17
success. They were able to do it from a
01:51:19
young age. But I think for me um I think
01:51:23
I would like to be in a position where
01:51:25
um
01:51:27
where I really enjoy what I do. Um and I
01:51:30
think that's the that's the key to life.
01:51:32
If you can just do the things you really
01:51:34
enjoy and not have to do the things that
01:51:35
you have to do, um that'd be a really
01:51:37
good position to be in. So I don't know
01:51:39
what that looks like yet. Yeah, I'm the
01:51:40
same. Like to me that's what retirement
01:51:42
would be. Maybe it involves, you know,
01:51:43
some sort of work or you work in some
01:51:45
capacity, but as long as as long as it
01:51:47
doesn't feel like work. That's right. Or
01:51:49
something you have to be doing. Yeah.
01:51:50
Um, are there three words that you, you
01:51:53
know, maybe Nikki or your kids would use
01:51:55
to describe you? Three words I think
01:51:58
they would say, um,
01:52:01
I would like them to say funny. They
01:52:03
think I'm funny. My My twins certainly
01:52:05
still laugh at my jokes. So, um, I feel
01:52:07
like I'm a light-hearted, you know, like
01:52:09
I've got a light-hearted humor about me.
01:52:11
I don't take things too seriously. Um, I
01:52:15
think they would say I work hard. Um, I
01:52:17
think they can see that and they they
01:52:18
feel that. Um, and then I think I would
01:52:22
hope that they would say that I'm a
01:52:23
family first person. That's that's what
01:52:25
I if I if I could um have one thing to
01:52:29
sum me up when I when I finally pass
01:52:31
away, it would be that I that I'm a
01:52:33
family guy, that I cared most about
01:52:34
family and that would be I would be
01:52:36
happy with that.
01:52:39
That's so good. That's so cool. What
01:52:41
What about legacy? Um, again, um, on a
01:52:47
legacy piece, I often think a lot about
01:52:49
legacy. For me, I would like to because
01:52:51
I've been involved with basketball my
01:52:52
whole life, I would like to see
01:52:54
basketball being in a better place than
01:52:56
than when I first um got involved in it,
01:52:58
and it already is. But, um, can can I
01:53:01
help build that to be even better than
01:53:03
what it is now? Um, is always what I
01:53:05
think about. And uh from a legacy piece
01:53:07
from a from a family, I just hope that
01:53:10
you know, you're able to show your kids,
01:53:13
you know, what good looks like and then
01:53:15
hopefully they can emulate that over
01:53:16
time and and learn from your mistakes to
01:53:18
make sure they don't make the same
01:53:19
mistakes. And my I certainly have not
01:53:22
been perfect at all in my life. Far far
01:53:24
from it. But I figure I've had some good
01:53:26
moments as well that they can maybe
01:53:27
focus on the good moments and and learn
01:53:29
from the bad moments.
01:53:31
How are you not in the Hall of Fame?
01:53:35
I don't know. Like when you were the
01:53:38
boss of basketball New Zealand, couldn't
01:53:39
you be like, "Oh, just one more thing
01:53:40
for the agenda." No. I mean, again, I
01:53:43
feel like I'm a pretty humble guy, too.
01:53:44
And um you know, I don't like I feel
01:53:47
uncomfortable with accolades. I really
01:53:49
do. I don't It doesn't sit well with me,
01:53:51
which is probably why I don't have
01:53:52
things hanging up in the house and
01:53:53
stuff. But um I always believe things
01:53:56
will things that when you deserve it,
01:53:58
something that they'll come, you know,
01:54:00
so I'm not in a hurry for anything like
01:54:01
that, you know. again, I've got a lot to
01:54:03
give in the game before I worry about
01:54:04
that stuff. Yeah. Are you proud of
01:54:06
yourself? Yeah, absolutely. Like, I'm as
01:54:09
humble as I am, I'm also proud and I'm
01:54:10
also I've worked my ass off to to be
01:54:12
where I am. And um you know, and I hope
01:54:15
people can see that and see that if if
01:54:18
you work hard, you can achieve things.
01:54:19
And and for me, I'm not a super talented
01:54:22
guy and I'm not super smart and I don't
01:54:24
I don't have any of these natural
01:54:25
attributes that some people have, but
01:54:28
the one attribute that people talk a lot
01:54:30
about is work ethic. And I believe I
01:54:32
have that and I believe that's what's
01:54:33
got me to where I am today and that's
01:54:34
what will continue to get me to where I
01:54:36
want to get to is just being able to
01:54:37
work and and just be a good person. I
01:54:39
think people want good people around
01:54:41
them.
01:54:43
I think that's a great place to end it.
01:54:45
Um this has been great. I can't believe
01:54:47
we haven't met until today, but I've
01:54:48
thoroughly enjoyed getting to know you
01:54:49
better. It's been really really
01:54:51
insightful and um a great episode. Dylan
01:54:53
Boucher, number 24, a great New
01:54:55
Zealander. Thank you mate. My pleasure.
01:54:58
Thank you very much.
