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In conversation with Chris Christie

September 08, 2023 / 02:08:15

This episode features a long-form discussion with Governor Chris Christie, focusing on key topics such as the U.S. national debt, immigration policy, and foreign relations, particularly regarding Ukraine. The hosts, including David Friedberg and Jason Calacanis, engage Christie in a candid conversation about his views on fiscal responsibility, military spending, and his candidacy for the 2024 presidential election.

Christie emphasizes the importance of addressing the national debt, noting the significant deficits incurred by previous administrations. He shares his experiences managing New Jersey's budget and advocates for spending cuts, particularly in social programs, to ensure the sustainability of Social Security and Medicare.

The discussion shifts to immigration, where Christie argues for a merit-based system and critiques the current political rhetoric surrounding the issue. He expresses concern over the rising fentanyl crisis and the impact of illegal immigration on American communities.

On foreign policy, Christie discusses the U.S. stance on Ukraine, asserting that a strong military response is necessary to counter Russian aggression. He critiques both Biden's and Trump's approaches to foreign affairs, arguing for a more decisive strategy.

Throughout the episode, Christie reflects on his political career, his motivations for running for president, and the challenges he faces in the current political landscape.

TL;DR

Governor Chris Christie discusses fiscal responsibility, immigration policy, and foreign relations in a candid conversation on the All-In Podcast.

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all right everybody welcome back to the

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all in podcast we're very excited today

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to do our third Deep dive long-form

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discussion with presidential candidates

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for the 2024 election started with RFK

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and he got a huge boost in the ratings

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after it was on the Pod we had Vivek and

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now Governor Chris Christie is with us

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Governor thanks for coming my pleasure

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thanks for having me guys all right so

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it's a little bit different here than I

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think some of the other news hits that

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you do this is not short form it's long

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form we like to you know have a

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thoughtful discussion

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with the candidates not with talking

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points and I know that you're a straight

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shooter so I think you'll fit right in

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here with the other boys I think they're

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very unique amongst candidates that

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you've actually brought up

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the deficit as we know uh just two facts

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here and then I'll hand it over to

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Freeburg for his question

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last two

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administrations have run up the deficit

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massively here's a chart

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of our debt Trump added almost 8

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trillion Biden's added four trillion

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and this is obviously an unpopular issue

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to bring up as you've mentioned bringing

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this up is unpopular doesn't get you

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votes necessary to say we have to cut

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spending

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and Freeburg and I are very much

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I'll speak for myself this is my number

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one issue in terms of picking a

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candidate freeberg I think you said it's

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your number one issue so Freiburg I'll

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hand it over to you in terms of a

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question for Governor Christie yeah

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Governor Christie nice to see you you

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and I staying on a karaoke stage

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together in Idaho a few years ago uh but

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it's uh I do remember that yeah is that

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a Sly way of saying Idaho I have to put

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that two and two together there everyone

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nice Freebird it was a small bar in

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Idaho oh it was a lot more in Idaho

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small part in Idaho small establishment

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classes with a few few folks who happen

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to be in a bar together at the B

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conference

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[Music]

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Rain Man Davidson

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we open source it to the fans

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[Music]

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we watched the Republican primary debate

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a few weeks ago and I think what struck

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me at least was how little focus and

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attention is given on the fiscal

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situation the US government

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deficit in excess of two trillion

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dollars this year debt to GDP in excess

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of 130 percent 30 plus percent of U.S

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debt is coming to you in the next year

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which means it's going to get refinanced

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at the higher rates of probably five and

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a half percent plus and then when you

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look at the the demands on Social

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Security Medicare

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forecasts are that both of those systems

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necessarily go bankrupt unless there's

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some Extraordinary Measures taken and

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that seems to be a very kind of Hot

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Topic Golden Goose that can't be touched

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or debated

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all of this seems to be largely ignored

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and so much of a conversation is around

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social issues in the United States

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military issues War Etc when

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fundamentally there's no gas in the tank

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I guess the point of view I'd love to

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hear from you is how do you think about

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that does that matter to you right now

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or do we think that this is a can that

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we kick down the road and will solve

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this problem later we'll grow our way

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out of it if we cut some spending it'll

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fix itself it seems so core to me that

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the future of the United States is going

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to be dependent on how we're going to

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manage this fiscal emergency that we're

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facing

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well look uh David it's core to me too

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and I'm you know if you've seen any of

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the excerpts from any of the Town Hall

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meetings I've done so far

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um you know I've been talking about both

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the issues you just raised uh it first

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off I think on the on the deficit and

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debt side

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I learned about this after becoming a

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prosecutor and having to come to New

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Jersey and inherit two problems

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immediately we have a two billion dollar

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short-term deficit for the last five

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months of the fiscal year that I

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inherited

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and then we had a 11 billion dollar

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deficit on a 29 billion dollar budget

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for the fiscal year starting July 1 of

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2010

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and I had to deal with both those things

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and as you know unlike the chart that

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was just shown you don't get to run it

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up you you have to square it

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um and so you know I learned how hard it

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is and how ugly it's going to be for

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your popularity to do these things so on

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the on the first piece on the two

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billion we sat down I refused to raise

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taxes and we sat down and we eliminated

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683 individual programs

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completely and then swept every Surplus

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from a school board in the state and the

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way we did that was we reduced their

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state aid by the amount they have in

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Surplus

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to get the 2 billion in balance

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and then extended that into the next

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budget cycle

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kept all those cuts in place which did

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some structural uh you know refiguring

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of the deficit

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um and then made additional Cuts after

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that you know I gotten elected with um

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48 and a half percent of the vote and

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after I did that my approval ratings

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went down below 40.

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uh in my first six months but what I

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knew was it was absolutely necessary

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because in our state we were already

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over taxed and the idea of raising taxes

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again was not an option that was to me

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viable

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so

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when you learn and you go through that

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process and then you look at what we're

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dealing with federally

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I think you realize three things right

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off the bat one it is an imperative that

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we need to reduce spending

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what it's doing to inflation and the

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long-term ability of the country to grow

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it makes it absolutely necessary to

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to me kicking the can down the road is

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not an option because the problem is

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only going to get worse and and it's

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going to begin to impact our ability to

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be able to do some of the core things

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that government is supposed to do

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and then third that you've got to be

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willing to sacrifice

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popularity

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for results

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and you know I'm not going to sit here

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and say it'll be fun to do it won't be

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but I went through it once already on a

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smaller scale and quite frankly you have

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a much longer Runway to do it at the

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federal level than I did at the state

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level and I had you know hard deadlines

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of you know June 30 2010 and July 1 2010

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to accomplish both

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on the entitlement side I think I'm the

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only person who's been talking about

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this and saying out loud we've got a

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consider raising retirement age and

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we've got to consider means testing and

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eligibility

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for Social Security

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and you know those also you know I

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remember watching Biden's uh state union

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address and to me the most disgusting

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part of it was when he said can we all

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agree we're not going to touch Social

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Security and both sides stood up and

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cheered yeah I agree that was the that

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was the the worst moment for me as well

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liars and hypocrites like they all know

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it's going broke in 11 years and that's

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an automatic 24 benefit cut on the

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Social Security side an automatic 25

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Medicare benefit cut on that side so

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you're not going to be have to you're

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not going to be able to let that happen

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um and so you got to deal with those

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issues and I think you can deal with

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them

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um through both

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um eligibility issues uh regarding means

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testing and you could deal with it um by

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also dealing with retirement age

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retirement age I would do it over the

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longer term not for people in their 50s

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and 60s currently but for people in

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their uh 40s and below and let me just

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say one follow-up because to your point

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I think the recent polling showed

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something like 83 plus of Americans

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support the benefit they get from these

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two programs Social Security and

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Medicare that it should not be touched

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that that is the popular opinion that is

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what the voters are saying

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do you not think that you put yourself

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at risk in your campaign by making these

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statements and how do you get elected

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and instigate change I put myself at

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risk by running yeah let alone put

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myself at risk I I just think you have

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to be honest with people it's 11 years

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it's not 20 years it's 11 now and and it

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means that if the next president doesn't

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deal with it

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then it is going to be an absolute

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crisis mode when it has to be dealt with

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we'll be inside three years and at that

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point the options will be even fewer so

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yeah of course it's yeah and I know

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someone will run a commercial by the way

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is that the part is that the behind

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closed door conversation is that what's

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going on is the folks that you know that

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you talk with everyone behind the closed

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door when they're not in front of the

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camera are saying we are going to have

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to deal with this in the next

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Presidential Administration yeah yeah

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but but the but they all say I can't

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believe you're saying it out loud right

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but you know to me we are in such a bad

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place in politics in this country if we

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don't start telling the people the truth

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about the problems we have we're never

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going to have an opportunity to solve

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them and that that's that's risky but my

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entire candidacy is risky so you know

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you might as well just go for it and

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tell people what you really think and I

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do think there are a number of people

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out there who are thinking people I

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think most people who answer that 83

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percent number

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um you know David is are people who

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um don't even know that we're 11 years

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away from insolvency

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because nobody talks about that part

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um and and if you don't talk about that

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part why would any of them watch Social

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Security touched but I'm finding in my

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town hall meetings when I tell people

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it's 11 years from insolvency how would

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you deal with a 25 cut 24 cut in your

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social security benefit

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people older folks in particular look

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horrified

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and so you know I think it's an

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educational process and I've always

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tried to treat politics at least in part

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that way that you know uh you know

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something I say New Jersey all the time

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when press would ask me about a poll

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that didn't like a position I was taking

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on an issue I'd say you know a Leader's

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job is not to follow polls is to change

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them

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and and my job is to change them and to

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persuade and convince through facts and

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argument that this is the right way to

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go and sometimes you'll win and

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sometimes you won't but if you don't

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tackle the problems what the hell are

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you doing there

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um you know the housing behind you is

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nice but

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um you know frankly it's not worth it to

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me if I'm gonna go there and just be

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another

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um one to kick this can down the road as

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you know

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um Obama Trump and Biden have all done

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Bush tried to do something about it and

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the Congress rejected it but Obama you

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know Trump and Biden have done nothing

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what are your top two areas where you

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would cut

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in order to save entitlements what are

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the other areas where you would go to

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find savings well look I think I think

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we we have to look at Social spending in

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general

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um that's really drastically increased

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post covet and those increases have not

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been taken back so I think you have to

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look at all the programs that were

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ramped up during covid and say okay

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um what's it going to be to bring it

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back to pre-covered spending to start

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and then after you do that a further

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evaluation of of those programs to see

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if they're effective and I think that

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would get you a good part of the way

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there given how much spending increased

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during coven

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um I think secondly

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um we need to look at the way we fund

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education in this country as well

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um and whether or not when we're

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spending 800 billion

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um what do we do with the 80 billion the

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federal government spends another place

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an interesting place to look

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small in comparison to a two trillion

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dollar debt I understand but

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um that's another place I would look

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and the only place I really wouldn't

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look is on the military side at this

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point because I think you've got to

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increase efficiency and effectiveness at

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the Pentagon but on the other hand I I

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don't think

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um that this is the time to be cutting

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back there when our Navy and Air Force

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are both in the conditions they're in

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it's a good segue with the military

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obviously one of the major uh

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differences in thinking on this pod and

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you know a big debate inside the

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Republican party is around should we

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defend Ukraine and then eventually will

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we defend

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you know Taiwan and so maybe I'll hand

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it off to David I'm stunned that this is

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coming up on your pod yeah uh it's it's

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it's a point of a contention uh I think

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I won't speak for you heard a time

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before Governor yes sir as as does my my

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oldest son listen to it so in times when

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I miss my son Andrew is and and he

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wanted to give me a full briefing before

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I was going to go on the box today and

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his evaluation of all of you

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um I told him I was going to refrain

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from that because I didn't want to bring

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his biases into the interview correct uh

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can you at least tell us what his

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evaluations were well after afterwards I

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will absolutely absolutely well okay by

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the way our path to presidential

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candidates is through the Suns it seems

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it's kind of a comment it's actually RFK

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Sons uh very bad into the Pod David of

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course is a pacifist he's a long time

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GOP member but doesn't believe we should

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be fighting

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never-ending Wars let me go back yeah

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let me level set here on foreign policy

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first before we get into Ukraine I want

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to go back to the bush era forever Wars

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the Iraq War one of the reasons why

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Trump I think really took off in 2016 is

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he was the first Republican to really

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come out and say that the Iraq War and

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all these Middle Eastern forever Wars we

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got into was a big mistake and even

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though he was even though he was for it

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when we did it okay well fair enough but

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he said on the campaign Trail and homies

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finish the question in 2016 he said that

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bush lied us into the war and he said no

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more bushes putting aside Trump for a

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second we can get to Trump

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what is your view on it do you

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fundamentally agree with that that we

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relied into the Iraq War do you do

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defend it

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no I think that I think that most people

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would admit that we were misled I

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wouldn't use the word lied

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um I would say misled into the Iraq War

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because of the wmd issue I mean I

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supported the Iraq War because of wmd

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and I thought if Saddam Hussein had wmd

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that that was something that we had to

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deal with in the context of the post-9

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11 World

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um when it turns out that he didn't have

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wmd I don't think there would have been

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many people who would have been

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supportive of the Iraq War

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um absent WMT so

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I thought Trump's statements in 2016

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were typical for him

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um he changed his opinion and instead of

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giving a rational reason for it he gave

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a sophomoric one and so I don't give him

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a whole lot of credit for that but well

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you did at the time in a sense I mean

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when bush bush said sorry Trump said

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that bush ledis and the Iraq War at the

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South Carolina debate that was on

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February 13th you endorsed him on

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February 26th yeah so what's that mean

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well I mean if you thought his answer

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was sophomoric why'd you endorse him two

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weeks later well I endorsed him because

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I was convinced he was going to be the

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Republican nominee for president and I

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didn't want Hillary Clinton to be the

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president and so having been in that

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race competed with him after he won

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South Carolina convinced he was going to

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be the nominee and having at that time

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had a 15-year relationship with him my

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view was I could go in there and try to

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make him a better candidate and if he

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won a better president and that's why

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endorsement absolutely nothing to do

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with his sophomore cancer on that I

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didn't like his answer

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um on the wall either saying Mexico is

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going to pay for it I thought that was

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sophomoric as well but you know what in

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American politics

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you don't get to often vote for the

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candidate you want to vote for

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um you get to vote for the ones who are

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left

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and if if I had my first choice in 16 it

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would have been me but that didn't work

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out so I defaulted into Trump because I

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thought he was a better choice than

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Hillary Clinton and by the way still do

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think he was a better choice than

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Hillary Clinton okay but you probably

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agree with that right sex

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you thought Trump would be a better

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choice than Hillary Clinton I mean

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honestly back in 2016 I wasn't sure what

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to make at Trump because he was such a

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you know Outsider and sort of a wrecking

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ball I agree with him about the Iraq War

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but I can accept the governor's answer

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that we were misled on that war and and

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if we had known the truth about it we

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never would have gotten into it so I

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think we can all agree on that yep

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I want to get to Ukraine but just just

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quickly 2012 do you regret not running

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in 2012 there's a lot of a lot of

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commentators who say that you kind of

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were the Trump before Trump you had this

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combative style this kind of take no

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prisoner sort of

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attitude and you kind of had a moment in

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2012 where it looked like maybe you

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could have been the front runner of the

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candidate

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I guess why didn't you go for it in 2012

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and I mean do you regret that at all I

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don't regret it and I wasn't ready to be

00:17:46

president and that's why I didn't run

00:17:48

I know it seems quaint now after Barack

00:17:51

Obama and Donald Trump have been

00:17:53

president but you know back in 2012 I

00:17:57

really felt like it was necessary to

00:17:59

feel in your heart and your mind you

00:18:00

were ready

00:18:01

when people started talking about me

00:18:04

running for president

00:18:06

I hadn't even been governor for a year

00:18:09

and before that I've been a prosecutor

00:18:12

and in my heart I just David you know it

00:18:14

just didn't feel like

00:18:16

um I was ready to be president and if I

00:18:19

don't feel something in here

00:18:22

I'm not going to be very effective at

00:18:24

making the argument politically

00:18:26

nor am I gonna be able to convince

00:18:27

people to give me their money which you

00:18:29

need to do as well and so no I don't

00:18:32

regret it and by the way you know all

00:18:33

those commentators who say that never

00:18:35

ran for a goddamn thing in their lives

00:18:38

and you know they all can think oh you

00:18:40

would have won you would have beaten

00:18:41

Romney and you would have beaten Obama

00:18:43

maybe I would have maybe I wouldn't have

00:18:45

but that's kind of like the dog catching

00:18:47

the garbage truck

00:18:49

if you don't think you're ready

00:18:51

and you catch it the worst moment

00:18:54

wouldn't have been losing that election

00:18:55

the worst moment might have been winning

00:18:56

it

00:18:57

and getting into the Oval Office for the

00:18:59

first time and saying oh my God

00:19:01

am I really ready to do this so

00:19:03

I don't have any regrets I really don't

00:19:05

and and um everybody who usually you

00:19:09

know commentates in that way

00:19:11

are people who have never put their name

00:19:12

on a ballot for anything

00:19:14

and until you do that you don't know

00:19:16

what it feels like and what it means to

00:19:18

have to offer yourself up to people

00:19:21

um for anything let alone for president

00:19:24

yeah okay fair enough

00:19:26

it's going chronologically here 2014

00:19:29

Biden is now Obama's vice president he

00:19:32

requests the Ukraine portfolio to run it

00:19:34

for Obama there's a famous phone call

00:19:37

that gets leaked where our deputy

00:19:39

secretary of state Victoria Newland is

00:19:41

on tape picking the new government of

00:19:44

Ukraine which takes effect a few weeks

00:19:46

later after the violent overthrow of the

00:19:48

democratically elected Ukrainian

00:19:50

government the yanukovich government

00:19:52

three months after that

00:19:54

Hunter Biden is appointed to the board

00:19:56

of barisma

00:19:57

do you believe that that appointment was

00:19:59

made for any other reason than Joe Biden

00:20:02

was the de facto ruler of Ukraine

00:20:07

I I don't know about him being the de

00:20:09

facto ruler of Ukraine I mean he was the

00:20:12

one I don't think Joe Biden is a fact a

00:20:14

ruler of anything but let me clarify

00:20:16

what I mean by that on the on the

00:20:18

victory on the Victoria Newland phone

00:20:20

call she says she needs to get approval

00:20:23

from Biden and Jake Sullivan's National

00:20:26

Security advisor for this new Ukrainian

00:20:29

government that she's picking so she

00:20:31

basically is saying that Biden is the

00:20:33

boss he's going to sign off on this

00:20:36

they apparently get the approval from

00:20:38

Biden and that government does go into

00:20:40

effect after what appears to be a U.S

00:20:43

backed coup

00:20:45

so Biden clearly has enormous influence

00:20:47

over that country now okay

00:20:51

or Jack Sullivan so look it's too glimp

00:20:54

to say he's the ruler of the country so

00:20:55

I don't mean that I just mean he's the

00:20:57

ultimate Authority it seems like in

00:21:00

approving or picking this new government

00:21:03

three months after he does that Hunter

00:21:05

binds appointed to the Border Barista so

00:21:07

my point to you is what reason could

00:21:10

there be for Hunter Biden's appointment

00:21:11

other than Joe Biden's influence over

00:21:13

that country

00:21:14

none

00:21:18

there you have it what you want me to

00:21:19

say

00:21:20

so a year later so 2015. I don't know

00:21:23

why sax became a venture capital if he

00:21:25

should have been a prosecutor absolutely

00:21:27

it's just incredible I'm overwhelmed at

00:21:30

the moment as a former prosecutor I can

00:21:33

see you sweating oh my God you're on the

00:21:35

roofs well no I'm just I'm trying to be

00:21:37

a great presentation flip to page 13.

00:21:39

yeah come on no no I want to get I want

00:21:42

to get I want to get this is a four hour

00:21:44

podcast

00:21:46

we're gonna go day by day over the last

00:21:49

decade

00:21:53

14 years old on the Middle School

00:21:55

playground and you push that kid Bobby

00:21:57

what were you thinking no I'm actually

00:22:00

establishing common ground with the

00:22:01

governor before I get into areas who

00:22:03

might disagree okay okay here we go

00:22:05

excellent okay so 2015

00:22:08

you have this prosecutor named shokun

00:22:10

this Ukrainian prosecutor who is

00:22:12

investigating barisma Joe Biden

00:22:14

according to his own acknowledgment on a

00:22:17

videotape to I think he was speaking to

00:22:19

the Council of Foreign Relations says

00:22:21

that he gets choken fired and then

00:22:23

magically the investigation into Barista

00:22:25

stops

00:22:26

do you think that was in furtherance of

00:22:29

stopping corruption in Ukraine or was

00:22:31

that an effort by Joe Biden to protect

00:22:33

himself or his son from this

00:22:35

investigation I think we're gonna find

00:22:37

out as

00:22:38

um continued congressional oversight

00:22:40

occurs and the special counsel I hope

00:22:43

investigation broadens

00:22:46

so I'm not ready to say I know that for

00:22:47

sure but I'll tell you this much there's

00:22:50

enough smoke there that we got to see

00:22:52

where the fire is

00:22:54

um and and I'd also say about Biden I

00:22:57

would never discount not as a substitute

00:22:59

motivation but perhaps it's an

00:23:02

additional one

00:23:03

the fact that he likes to pretend he's

00:23:05

in charge of things

00:23:07

um but instead his staff is really in

00:23:09

charge

00:23:10

and that's how you get trained in the

00:23:12

United States Senate

00:23:14

your staff really wants everything

00:23:17

um at least with many of the Senators

00:23:18

and that's why it's such a bad

00:23:20

um training ground for the presidency in

00:23:23

my view but I I digress myself

00:23:27

um I'd say it is a likely motivation it

00:23:30

may not be the only one and it's

00:23:32

something I'm certainly intrigued to

00:23:34

find out about

00:23:35

um as oversight moves forward and I hope

00:23:38

the special counsel's investigation

00:23:40

broadens into the specifics of then Vice

00:23:44

President Biden's involvement with his

00:23:46

son's business dealings let's talk about

00:23:48

that for a second there is I guess the

00:23:49

most recent Revelation is that Joe Biden

00:23:52

was communicating with his son under

00:23:53

under a pseudonym or burner account was

00:23:56

it Robert Peters yeah in your experience

00:23:59

as a prosecutor is there any legitimate

00:24:02

reason why somebody would want to use a

00:24:05

pseudonym for communicating with their

00:24:06

son

00:24:08

um look burner accounts always raise my

00:24:11

eyebrows

00:24:12

um as a former prosecutor but what I

00:24:15

will say is that

00:24:17

I I would understand someone in public

00:24:19

life if they're communicating with

00:24:20

family

00:24:21

wanting to do that in a way where it

00:24:24

wouldn't be detected by folks who are

00:24:27

prying in one way or the other whether

00:24:29

that might be media but more

00:24:31

particularly hackers and other folks who

00:24:34

are able to do things that I really

00:24:36

don't have much understanding of except

00:24:38

to be fearful of them

00:24:40

um so I don't want to say that as a de

00:24:43

facto proof Point David but again going

00:24:46

back to my seven years as a U.S attorney

00:24:49

um when I saw someone having a burner

00:24:51

phone

00:24:52

or other types of burner accounts

00:24:54

definitely made me say let's take a look

00:24:56

a little more closely at that and see

00:24:57

what we can find yeah so at a minimum at

00:25:00

a minimum it's suspicious for sure and

00:25:02

deserves inquiry

00:25:04

yeah especially after buying City had no

00:25:06

involvement with his son's business

00:25:07

dealing so we found out from Devin

00:25:09

Archer sworn testimony who is Hunter

00:25:11

bind's partner that by and participated

00:25:13

in 20 phone calls with clients to be the

00:25:16

brand so too far down the the Biden uh

00:25:20

and Trump well which okay give us tons

00:25:25

of I think material maybe we can get

00:25:27

okay so you could Ukraine which a

00:25:29

Ukraine war and and you know who do you

00:25:32

think's ultimately responsible for the

00:25:35

invasion of Ukraine do you think the

00:25:36

United States obviously the governor has

00:25:38

said he supports Ukraine anymore

00:25:40

yeah so maybe just in terms of

00:25:43

governor do you think the United States

00:25:46

is responsible for the invasion of

00:25:49

Ukraine because we didn't do enough in

00:25:51

terms of taking NATO off the table like

00:25:52

some people think or do you think

00:25:56

Putin is responsible for invading

00:25:58

Ukraine because he invaded Ukraine I

00:26:01

don't want to lead the witness

00:26:03

you already did but the the the

00:26:06

um my answer is that Putin is

00:26:08

responsible now shocking I do think

00:26:11

though

00:26:12

that United States inaction

00:26:17

um and and bad signal sending to Putin

00:26:20

going all the way back to George W bush

00:26:23

who said I looked into his eyes and saw

00:26:25

his soul

00:26:27

um then to Barack Obama who was you know

00:26:31

completely uninterested

00:26:33

um in anything and and when Putin made

00:26:36

moves on Ukraine under the under the

00:26:39

Obama Administration he did nothing

00:26:42

um to Donald Trump who sought as an

00:26:43

opportunity to extort Vladimir zielinski

00:26:48

um to get dirt on Joe Biden

00:26:50

um in return for military aid to Joe

00:26:52

Biden who I think has been a handwringer

00:26:55

on this issue and when he said well

00:26:57

maybe a small Invasion wouldn't be so

00:27:00

bad

00:27:01

um you know it reminds me of you know

00:27:03

something I said to folks um when I was

00:27:05

U.S attorney everybody's definition of

00:27:08

the word small is different

00:27:10

um and you can't assume what they mean

00:27:12

is the same thing you mean so I do think

00:27:14

there were American actions and

00:27:16

inactions which contributed to sending

00:27:18

signals to Putin that maybe we wouldn't

00:27:21

care if he did it

00:27:23

um but

00:27:24

um that's a small sliver in my view of

00:27:26

the responsibility The Lion's Share the

00:27:28

responsibility is in my view on Putin

00:27:31

fair enough would you admit Ukraine into

00:27:34

NATO

00:27:36

well I think that in the situation we're

00:27:38

in now David

00:27:39

um they're gonna be it's almost a de

00:27:41

facto point at this point I I don't I

00:27:44

think that given that we permitted

00:27:46

Russia to do what they did

00:27:49

um given that we're that that they have

00:27:51

now executed what they've executed in

00:27:53

terms of their aggression against

00:27:55

Ukraine and the NATO support

00:27:58

um from a military hardware and other

00:28:01

perspective intelligence perspective for

00:28:03

Ukraine I think it is now a foregone

00:28:07

conclusion that Ukraine will be will be

00:28:09

admitted to Nato and frankly it's got to

00:28:12

be now I think one of the penalties and

00:28:13

one of the prices that Putin pays for

00:28:15

his aggression

00:28:16

but when would you do that I mean so Jen

00:28:18

stoltenberg at the Vilnius Summit made

00:28:20

it explicit that Ukraine's future is in

00:28:23

NATO but it could not happen unless and

00:28:25

until they win this war

00:28:28

would you admit them sooner than that no

00:28:30

okay no I wouldn't because that would

00:28:33

lead to war three obviously that's what

00:28:36

I'm attempting to avoid yeah okay fair

00:28:38

enough would you have been willing to

00:28:40

take NATO expansion off the table in

00:28:43

2021 in order to avoid a war

00:28:46

no I think that was too late

00:28:49

if you were going to take NATO expansion

00:28:51

off of the off of the table if you were

00:28:53

going to do it it would have been done

00:28:55

much earlier because if you did it then

00:28:57

that would essentially be giving in to

00:28:59

Putin's threat

00:29:02

um and I think that would have sent an

00:29:04

even worse signal than some of the

00:29:05

signals that I that I mentioned before

00:29:07

so no I wouldn't have been willing to do

00:29:09

it in 21 in order to avoid it because

00:29:12

quite frankly I don't believe that it

00:29:14

would have avoided it it just would have

00:29:15

forestalled it do you believe that we

00:29:17

made the correct decision I mean I know

00:29:18

I'm going way back here but in 2008 at

00:29:20

the Bucharest Summit we declared Our

00:29:22

intention

00:29:23

to bring Ukraine and Georgia for that

00:29:25

matter into NATO but we didn't have a

00:29:27

plan to do it do you believe that was a

00:29:29

mistake

00:29:30

I think it was a mistake not to if

00:29:32

you're gonna do it you should have a

00:29:34

plan that lays out exactly how and when

00:29:36

and why

00:29:38

and I think just

00:29:39

um

00:29:40

expressing aspirational goals in that

00:29:43

regard is dangerous in foreign policy in

00:29:46

that regard and so I think the mistake

00:29:49

was made not necessarily by ever having

00:29:51

Ukraine and NATO but by doing it the way

00:29:54

it was done again

00:29:56

um was it on in my view an unnecessary

00:29:59

or at least a not well thought out

00:30:01

provocation

00:30:03

is there anything about Joe Biden's

00:30:04

policy in Ukraine that you would change

00:30:07

yeah it would have been much more

00:30:09

aggressive in providing military

00:30:11

hardware much sooner

00:30:13

um than what he did and I think he's

00:30:16

been he's been the ham ringer on it

00:30:18

every step has had has been preceded by

00:30:22

Freddie and burrowing frat

00:30:26

furrowing brows and and and uh hand

00:30:30

ringing and I think if you're going to

00:30:32

be in this

00:30:33

you have to give them the tools they

00:30:35

need to win

00:30:37

um when I met with zielinski a month ago

00:30:40

he made it very clear to me

00:30:42

he had no interest in American or Allied

00:30:45

troops in Ukraine now or ever

00:30:48

he felt this was Ukraine's war to win or

00:30:50

lose but that they needed the uh the

00:30:54

military hardware necessary to to

00:30:57

compete in this war against Russia and

00:31:01

that

00:31:02

you know my view of what their biggest

00:31:04

concerns were which I the ones that I

00:31:06

agree with are the pace and amount of

00:31:09

armaments that have been given not only

00:31:11

by the us but by the rest of the NATO

00:31:13

allies as well I mean for a lot of us

00:31:16

let me just ask a quick couple of quick

00:31:18

follow-ups here and then we can move on

00:31:19

I mean for a lot of us Biden has not

00:31:21

been half-hearted about this he saw it

00:31:23

113 billion dollar appropriation that

00:31:25

seems like a ton of money that could

00:31:26

have been spent domestically what little

00:31:28

hand ringing there was was on the giving

00:31:30

of f-16s and Abrams tanks and the reason

00:31:35

for that Biden said was that it could

00:31:37

lead to War III

00:31:39

I mean are you not concerned about those

00:31:41

kinds of escalations I mean isn't that a

00:31:42

good thing to be concerned about not

00:31:43

dismissive about it's always It's always

00:31:47

important to be concerned about it but

00:31:48

you have to be thoughtful about it and

00:31:50

look at what the what the alternatives

00:31:52

are and to me the alternative of

00:31:55

allowing the the combination of China

00:31:57

and Russia

00:31:59

um to to Route Ukraine uh is something

00:32:04

that's not in the U.S vital interests

00:32:06

and will lead to other problems as well

00:32:09

with China going forward and so

00:32:13

um these are none of these are easy

00:32:14

decisions Dave

00:32:16

but what they are are the ones that you

00:32:19

want someone who is thoughtful and has

00:32:21

some experience making them as president

00:32:24

and I don't think Biden checks either of

00:32:27

those boxes sufficiently and I think his

00:32:29

contact has shown that

00:32:31

and by the way the same applies to Trump

00:32:33

what do you think the resolution is here

00:32:36

and if in I don't know 16 months you're

00:32:39

president or when your president uh how

00:32:42

would you deal with this if the war

00:32:43

still

00:32:44

raging here well I think it depends on

00:32:47

what disposition the war is in at that

00:32:49

point yeah Jason I think

00:32:51

um you have to evaluate how successful

00:32:53

has Ukraine been in pushing back they've

00:32:57

made some success in the past couple of

00:32:59

weeks in terms of breaking through some

00:33:02

of the Soviet initial defensive lines I

00:33:04

think we have to see exactly how

00:33:06

successful they've been

00:33:08

um but what I would say is that there's

00:33:11

there's no question

00:33:13

that this isn't this is a conflict that

00:33:16

we

00:33:18

need to support and send a clear message

00:33:20

messages that have not been as I said

00:33:22

earlier since it all clearly to Putin

00:33:24

that you know this is a guy who has

00:33:26

openly discussed the reassembling of the

00:33:29

Soviet Union

00:33:32

um and I have no no Illusions about the

00:33:35

fact that this former kg beer

00:33:38

thinks that the Soviet Union were the

00:33:40

good old days

00:33:41

and if he thought he'd get away with

00:33:43

assembling as much of it as he possibly

00:33:45

could he would

00:33:47

um and I think that we have to send a

00:33:49

very clear message on that to him

00:33:51

and a very clear message on that to

00:33:53

China regarding authoritarian

00:33:55

expansionism and this is where I think

00:33:57

the the Trump

00:33:59

um DeSantis ramaswamy

00:34:02

foreign policies are so hopelessly

00:34:06

um ill-informed and naive the idea that

00:34:09

we're going to go to Putin who yesterday

00:34:12

was sitting with Kim Jong-un

00:34:14

and persuaded the better places to be

00:34:16

with us go away from your communist

00:34:19

Brothers in China and North Korea

00:34:22

and come with us because it'll be a much

00:34:24

better deal for you and that Donald

00:34:26

Trump's going to do that in 24 hours or

00:34:29

if a fake ramaswami is going to do it by

00:34:31

virtue of his winning personality I mean

00:34:34

to me he looks like the guy you wanted

00:34:36

to stuff in the locker in the 11th grade

00:34:37

but

00:34:39

um I don't think that's the guy who's

00:34:40

gonna put straight Vladimir Putin to

00:34:42

leave the Communist Chinese and to um

00:34:45

you know come to uh come to uh the

00:34:47

America's side but Governor you have to

00:34:49

admit the war is not going well for the

00:34:51

ukrainians I mean this counter-offensive

00:34:53

here's what we are promised remember

00:34:54

just uh several months ago before the

00:34:57

counteroffensive you have people like

00:34:58

Petraeus and Ben Hodges saying that the

00:35:01

counter-offensive would be like a blitz

00:35:03

we would they would rapidly penetrate

00:35:05

the sir vegan lines they would march

00:35:07

across the country to the Sea of azov

00:35:09

they cut off the land bridge to Crimea

00:35:11

all this would happen within weeks and

00:35:13

it would be a significant Ukrainian

00:35:15

Victory it has been almost a total

00:35:17

failure the ukrainians have taken even

00:35:20

the Washington Post and Politico

00:35:22

Publications like that have said their

00:35:23

losses have been staggering the

00:35:25

battlefield reports have been sobering

00:35:27

these are our top blob Publications

00:35:30

saying this so we have been unsuccessful

00:35:33

moreover you say we should give them

00:35:34

more weapons but we've run out we've run

00:35:36

out of the key type of ammunition in

00:35:38

this war which is artillery shells

00:35:40

that's why we're giving them cluster

00:35:41

bombs we got the the cupboard is bear

00:35:44

so I'm just wondering

00:35:46

how exactly would you turn this around

00:35:48

given that the ukrainians are losing

00:35:50

this war very badly well first off

00:35:54

there was a lot in there all right let's

00:35:55

go back to the predictions from Petraeus

00:35:58

and others you can hear me making those

00:35:59

predictions because I think anybody who

00:36:01

was briefed on the on the

00:36:04

deficiency of armaments for Ukraine

00:36:09

would not have said something like that

00:36:10

unless it was wishful thinking

00:36:13

secondly

00:36:15

um I I understand

00:36:18

the reports regarding our own

00:36:20

deficiencies in providing them with with

00:36:22

more armaments we have I think work to

00:36:26

do with the rest of our allies in nato

00:36:28

in terms of they're providing more more

00:36:32

of the artillery and other armaments

00:36:35

that are needed by the Ukraine the

00:36:36

Indians are even less than we do I mean

00:36:38

well but but look this is going to have

00:36:41

to be something that we're going to have

00:36:42

to to to Cobble together together to get

00:36:45

it done and it also shows what I was

00:36:48

saying earlier in regards to the budget

00:36:50

question that you know this massive

00:36:53

military built up that Donald Trump says

00:36:55

he did was baloney I think you have an

00:36:57

interesting point there actually which

00:36:59

is to me one of the biggest surprises

00:37:00

this war is that we spend

00:37:02

877 billion on the Pentagon and that we

00:37:05

could run out of ammo right so I mean

00:37:07

without blaming Trump per se or Biden I

00:37:11

just think we're getting ripped off I

00:37:12

mean the military-industrial complex is

00:37:14

royally screwing the American taxpayer

00:37:16

how can we spend 877 billion dollars and

00:37:19

not have ammo can you explain that to me

00:37:21

or have food insecurity for a lot of

00:37:24

members of the military not have paid

00:37:26

leave not have

00:37:28

Health Care the idea that you don't want

00:37:31

to look at that budget is an enormous

00:37:33

that's what I said that is what you said

00:37:35

no it is not what did you say I said no

00:37:38

no I did not say that what I said was

00:37:41

that the Pentagon has to be made more

00:37:44

efficient and more effective with what

00:37:47

it spends

00:37:48

but not reduce what it spends and that

00:37:50

goes right to the point that David just

00:37:52

made which is you have to get answers as

00:37:55

president to the questions of what are

00:37:58

you spending 877 billion dollars on if

00:38:01

we're running out of ammo and there's

00:38:03

food insecurity and there's not paid

00:38:06

leave right so what I what I was saying

00:38:09

through the answer I gave you on the

00:38:10

budget was

00:38:11

I did not see that as a place to cut

00:38:15

but I did say very clearly

00:38:18

that it's a place where we have to make

00:38:20

the Pentagon more efficient and

00:38:22

effective and we need a secretary of

00:38:24

defense and a president who want to and

00:38:27

demands answers to those questions first

00:38:29

are you not sympathetic to the idea that

00:38:31

efficiency sometimes means spending less

00:38:33

to get the same or more if that's the

00:38:36

conclusion we come to after examining it

00:38:38

then I'm very um sympathetic to that so

00:38:40

then you are opening to cutting the

00:38:42

defense budget I'm open it is a

00:38:44

secondary issue the primary issue on

00:38:48

defense no I understand I just want a

00:38:50

clear answer so I understand where

00:38:51

you're coming from you want to look at

00:38:52

the defense budget you have an intuition

00:38:55

that there's potentially extreme levels

00:38:58

of waste right and so if you find that

00:39:01

waste will you just cut it or no you

00:39:03

just reallocate it reallocate why for

00:39:06

the for the very reasons that David's

00:39:08

just talking about if we're running out

00:39:10

of ammo if our submarine capacity is not

00:39:13

where it should be which I believe it is

00:39:15

not if our ship capacity is not where I

00:39:18

believe I believe it should be and it is

00:39:19

not in my view and if our modernization

00:39:22

of our of our air force is not where it

00:39:25

should be which I believe it is not then

00:39:28

you reallocate that money okay so

00:39:30

there's a principle in capitalism called

00:39:32

zero-based budgeting which I I actually

00:39:34

like what you're saying but just to kind

00:39:36

of double click on what that is

00:39:37

zero-based budgeting starts with the

00:39:39

principle that you just started which is

00:39:41

what are our priorities what do we want

00:39:43

to accomplish and then you go and

00:39:45

systematically build up where the budget

00:39:46

actually starts at zero dollars hey

00:39:48

Pentagon you get zero not eight hundred

00:39:50

billion what do we need to accomplish oh

00:39:52

we need bullets okay we need armaments

00:39:55

okay we need to have food security for

00:39:57

all of our armed service men and women

00:40:00

absolutely

00:40:01

and then what happens if that number

00:40:03

gets to 350 billion do you just cut half

00:40:05

a billion or do you find ways to spend

00:40:07

the other half a trillion dollars well

00:40:09

I'm glad you brought that up because

00:40:10

that's what I did as governor I was the

00:40:13

first governor who did zero-based

00:40:14

budgeting and I did it

00:40:16

um first governor New Jersey to do it

00:40:18

and I did it because of the the Dire

00:40:22

Straits that we were in I didn't think

00:40:24

we could assume any longer anything in

00:40:27

terms of our spending so I absolutely

00:40:29

would want to take that approach now I

00:40:32

don't think you're going to go from 877

00:40:35

billion to 350 billion

00:40:38

um and say that we've met all of our

00:40:40

defense needs and the needs of our

00:40:42

fighting men and women with that with

00:40:45

that number

00:40:46

but

00:40:47

let's just leave the number blank for a

00:40:49

minute

00:40:50

if I concluded

00:40:52

that we could do everything we needed to

00:40:54

do

00:40:55

through the re-engineering of what how

00:40:59

we were spending the Pentagon

00:41:01

and that ultimately it would check the

00:41:03

boxes I want it checked in terms of some

00:41:06

of the issues I just talked about

00:41:07

and it turned out to be less than 877

00:41:10

billion

00:41:11

of course I would look not to spend 877

00:41:15

billion but that assumes a lot of things

00:41:18

in there as you know

00:41:19

but the principle of zero-based

00:41:22

budgeting from my perspective worked

00:41:24

when I was governor

00:41:26

not only in terms of

00:41:28

keeping our spending

00:41:30

at an increase of two percent a year

00:41:32

annually for eight years

00:41:34

but it also educated me much more on the

00:41:39

intricacies of the budget as the

00:41:40

ultimate decision maker I think that was

00:41:43

useful you were a very effective

00:41:45

prosecutor and part of that is having a

00:41:46

good intuition so I'm just going to ask

00:41:48

you your intuition

00:41:50

how much waste do you think is in the

00:41:52

military-industrial complex in that 877

00:41:55

billion do you think there's 30 cents of

00:41:57

waste do you think there's 40 cents of

00:41:58

waste do you think there's five cents of

00:42:00

waste or do you think there's like 70

00:42:01

cents of waste my intuition tells me

00:42:04

that it is significant I can't put a

00:42:06

number on it be irresponsible for me to

00:42:08

put a number on it but there's no doubt

00:42:10

that when you see us spend the 877

00:42:12

billion

00:42:13

and we don't have 155 millimeter

00:42:16

artillery shells that there's waste

00:42:19

let's talk about governance and just

00:42:21

like civil society and government for a

00:42:23

second but let's just finish on this

00:42:24

military-industrial complex why is it

00:42:28

how does it come to be

00:42:31

that so much corruption

00:42:34

and graft gets introduced into the

00:42:37

military budget explain just how how it

00:42:40

happens how does all of this waste end

00:42:42

up happening where on the one hand you

00:42:45

ask people men and women oftentimes poor

00:42:48

oftentimes minorities to come and serve

00:42:50

and put their lives on the front lines

00:42:52

you don't even give them enough food

00:42:53

somebody's clearly making money out of

00:42:55

the 877 billion just explain how that

00:42:59

waste comes to be

00:43:01

and the influence pedaling and the

00:43:03

revolving door just so that the average

00:43:05

person can understand it

00:43:06

well first off

00:43:08

and I'll answer your your question

00:43:10

specifically but let me say by answering

00:43:13

it this way I don't want to imply in any

00:43:15

way that this waste and Corruption

00:43:18

happens just in the military budget

00:43:21

because it happens it's been my

00:43:23

experience it happens across budgets

00:43:26

um across disciplines with that being

00:43:28

said

00:43:29

I would say it happens in a number of

00:43:31

different ways first of all not doing

00:43:33

zero based budgeting contributes to that

00:43:35

because people no longer have to

00:43:37

rationalize or Justify the existence of

00:43:40

a program they just need to hire enough

00:43:42

lobbyists to keep it getting put in

00:43:43

there so that's one way that it happens

00:43:46

secondly incompetence in administration

00:43:50

so people who are either purely

00:43:54

incompetent in the job or alternative

00:43:56

two is are corrupt in the job and so

00:43:59

they look the other way on waste because

00:44:03

they want to get a job through the

00:44:04

revolving door you talked about on the

00:44:06

other side

00:44:08

third way that I think it happens

00:44:11

is

00:44:13

um

00:44:14

extraordinary events

00:44:16

that cause

00:44:18

political overreaction

00:44:20

so you'll have an extraordinary event

00:44:22

that occurs

00:44:24

um from a national security perspective

00:44:26

and then

00:44:28

politicians want to look like we're

00:44:30

responding to it

00:44:32

and the way we're responding to it is

00:44:33

we're going to spend

00:44:34

X tens hundreds of billions more

00:44:38

on this broad category of of initiatives

00:44:43

without really digging into whether that

00:44:46

can be spent effectively that way or not

00:44:48

and then once it gets in there for the

00:44:51

reasons I gave to you in the two

00:44:53

examples before it doesn't get out so

00:44:56

you layer it over and layer it over and

00:44:58

layer it over and layer it over and then

00:45:01

that's the way that stuff happens so I

00:45:03

think it's a bit of a nutshell a

00:45:07

presentation on that for you

00:45:10

um but I think those are the three most

00:45:13

important elements that I've observed

00:45:15

personally

00:45:17

um in governing a state with sixty

00:45:20

thousand employees and a 34 billion

00:45:24

dollar budget you think the antidote to

00:45:26

that is a is to start with zero based

00:45:28

budgeting or are there other more

00:45:30

radical changes you would want to make

00:45:32

whether it's to the CIA or the NSA how

00:45:35

do you think about getting to the root

00:45:37

cause of or root answer of the truth

00:45:39

look I think that that there's two ways

00:45:42

to do it initially and zero-based

00:45:45

budgeting is one of them and secondly is

00:45:48

to try to select competent people

00:45:53

um for those positions who understand

00:45:55

clearly from the leader what their

00:45:58

mission is would you for example be

00:46:00

willing to do an EO that said if you

00:46:02

serve in these roles you're banned from

00:46:04

serving any of these folks for 20 years

00:46:06

or something like that something that

00:46:07

just makes it clear that there's no

00:46:09

Financial motivation

00:46:10

for somebody to walk out the door and

00:46:12

then go and work for Lockheed Martin or

00:46:14

just augment that let's talk about these

00:46:16

former generals like the ones we were

00:46:17

quoting who predicted the counter

00:46:19

offensive would be this wonderful

00:46:20

success they're all now on the boards of

00:46:22

weapons manufacturers

00:46:24

so the people in the Pentagon

00:46:27

who make a lot of these procurement

00:46:29

decisions about weapon systems when they

00:46:31

retire they go off

00:46:33

to serve on these boards I mean the big

00:46:36

weapons companies are basically their

00:46:37

retirement program I mean that seems

00:46:39

like a horrible set of incentives I mean

00:46:42

would you do something like ban the

00:46:43

revolving door between people working in

00:46:46

the Pentagon and then working for a

00:46:48

weapons company

00:46:49

well I certainly would be willing to

00:46:52

consider

00:46:53

um if they if they worked with a

00:46:56

particular contractor they had

00:46:58

supervisory or decision-making authority

00:47:00

over a program run by a particular

00:47:02

contractor not being able to go back out

00:47:05

and work better when they go back in the

00:47:07

problem is they know in advance that

00:47:09

their retirement program is going to be

00:47:10

working on one of these boards so

00:47:12

they're not as tough as they should be

00:47:13

when they're actually in the government

00:47:15

job all right so you talk about the

00:47:16

revolving door on the way in

00:47:18

like basically you work your way up to

00:47:20

General and then you retire and then you

00:47:22

join the boards of these Raytheon and

00:47:24

Lockheed and all these guys

00:47:27

well I think that there are appropriate

00:47:30

restrictions that can be put on in terms

00:47:32

of number of years to make it go past

00:47:35

the period when that person could have

00:47:36

direct political influence on the

00:47:38

administration that's in play

00:47:40

but I also think we need to be careful

00:47:42

about the fact that we don't we don't

00:47:45

wind up

00:47:47

um throwing out the baby with the bath

00:47:48

water in the sense that there are some

00:47:51

people who are legitimate people who are

00:47:55

not looking to do it in a way that is

00:47:58

corrupt or unethical but who develop

00:48:01

great expertise in certain areas and

00:48:04

that expertise can be very helpful we're

00:48:05

only looking at the negative side of it

00:48:08

um so I think there are ways to do what

00:48:10

we need to do with the political

00:48:11

influence and that it would be to ban it

00:48:14

for the rest of that Administration

00:48:16

so if you serve in a particular

00:48:18

Administration for the rest of the

00:48:20

administration you can't go back out

00:48:22

and work on the issues that you were

00:48:25

working on when you were there that to

00:48:27

me this seems to be reasonable yeah I

00:48:28

mean I I don't know whether 20 years

00:48:30

makes sense or not

00:48:32

um but you know we've identified the

00:48:35

problem now let's figure out how to fix

00:48:37

it my I'm willing and open to do that

00:48:41

but I want to make sure I do it in a way

00:48:43

that is not creating a whole different

00:48:46

set of problems that we'll then be

00:48:48

talking about well and and the analogy I

00:48:51

make in part on this is the wall between

00:48:54

CIA and FBI

00:48:56

um and the problems that that I think

00:49:00

precipitated

00:49:01

um regarding 911. so

00:49:04

you know there there are fixes to these

00:49:06

things and I'm telling you guys is I'm

00:49:09

willing to be open about how to do it I

00:49:12

favor the concept I think we're

00:49:14

negotiating over length of years and how

00:49:17

it applies should that be the case for

00:49:18

all government administrative jobs

00:49:20

Governor sure so FDA into Health Care

00:49:23

Health Care into FDA USDA like should

00:49:27

that be the case everywhere it's the

00:49:29

same principle yeah how should that then

00:49:31

be applied to Congress people

00:49:33

ah well uh since the EO won't cover

00:49:36

members of Congress in the same way that

00:49:39

that's why they don't have term limits

00:49:40

which I believe they should have

00:49:42

um and why none of this stuff will ever

00:49:44

apply to Congress so let's tell the

00:49:46

truth it'll never apply to Congress

00:49:49

because they'd have to pass it for it to

00:49:51

apply and it will never happen

00:49:53

but the president could do what he could

00:49:56

do about his branch of government and

00:49:58

should and I would let's pivot to one of

00:50:01

the most controversial topics between

00:50:02

the two parties which is immigration and

00:50:05

I'll pull up two charts here to queue up

00:50:07

the uh discussion here's the first chart

00:50:10

just since 2000 we've been uh net

00:50:13

migration United States just on a steady

00:50:15

stream down at around 5 million second

00:50:18

chart is border crossings that orange

00:50:21

line there that you're seeing that's

00:50:23

covid and then the Blue Line obviously

00:50:25

is the return from covid but uh the

00:50:27

Border agency seems to think not much

00:50:29

has changed over the last couple of

00:50:31

years at the border however we have and

00:50:34

that's across obviously multiple

00:50:36

Administrations

00:50:37

other countries have point-based systems

00:50:41

they have very logical discussions over

00:50:43

immigration is this person going to add

00:50:46

and be accretive to the society is this

00:50:48

person going to be a drain on society

00:50:49

and you know they just UK Australia New

00:50:52

Zealand

00:50:53

countless countries now use this

00:50:55

point-based system it's incredibly

00:50:57

polarized here

00:50:58

and we have the lowest and we have the

00:51:00

lowest unemployment of our lifetime

00:51:02

plenty of jobs we still have 1.6 jobs

00:51:05

per

00:51:06

American who is who are looking for jobs

00:51:09

I'm curious why you think this

00:51:11

immigration discussion is so polarized

00:51:14

and not factual and how you as president

00:51:19

would uh resolve this issue and and

00:51:22

maybe make it make more sense to the

00:51:25

American public

00:51:26

well I look I think the first thing the

00:51:29

first part of the question is how has it

00:51:31

gotten so polarized and I think it's

00:51:33

because people in political life have

00:51:35

used this as a weapon

00:51:39

um on both sides of the aisle

00:51:41

um to try to promote their own

00:51:44

um political agendas Democrats have

00:51:46

wanted this perception

00:51:49

um on the on their positive side from

00:51:51

their perspective

00:51:52

um that don't let anybody in because

00:51:54

they think ultimately those folks who

00:51:57

come in will be their voters ultimately

00:52:00

over the Long Haul

00:52:02

and they also want to raise restrictions

00:52:05

they want to raise the issue of

00:52:07

restrictions that are placed by

00:52:09

Republicans on this

00:52:10

to make us seem to be heartless uncaring

00:52:14

unfeeling people

00:52:17

on our side

00:52:19

um we want to make the entire system

00:52:21

seem completely Lawless

00:52:25

because that plays into our view of

00:52:27

ourselves as the Law and Order party and

00:52:29

the Democrats as the party who could

00:52:31

give a damn about Law and Order

00:52:34

and we want to play into the populist

00:52:36

side of it which says that any person

00:52:39

who comes over the border is likely to

00:52:41

take your job

00:52:43

not just a job your job

00:52:45

and then when you present it to people

00:52:47

that way they our course are going to be

00:52:50

anti-immigration because they'd like to

00:52:52

keep their job and support their family

00:52:54

and have a life that they want to look

00:52:57

um forward to

00:52:59

and for their kids as well so

00:53:03

that's my explanation on the first part

00:53:05

as to how we got here seems logical yeah

00:53:07

and and fair by the way your assessment

00:53:09

of both parties by the way on these

00:53:10

topics I think is excellent by the way

00:53:13

completely unfair way to have conducted

00:53:16

this stuff

00:53:17

the problem has been

00:53:19

that we haven't had presidential

00:53:21

leadership on this issue since Reagan

00:53:24

Reagan ultimately

00:53:27

and I think he learned this

00:53:29

as a conservative governor in a blue

00:53:31

state

00:53:32

we're going to deal with Jesse unra

00:53:33

running his legislature

00:53:36

and Reagan

00:53:37

um let's all friend of mine because I

00:53:38

just finished writing a book on Reagan

00:53:41

so it's fresh in mind to me

00:53:43

um

00:53:44

Reagan learned

00:53:47

that it was only he the governor

00:53:50

who could

00:53:52

force people into a room

00:53:54

to to get issues resolved

00:53:58

in the same way when he was president

00:54:01

he didn't love the deal he made on

00:54:04

immigration

00:54:05

same way he didn't love the deal he made

00:54:07

on Social Security

00:54:09

but he liked it more than he liked the

00:54:12

alternative

00:54:13

of doing nothing

00:54:15

I think the only way we're going to

00:54:16

resolve the immigration issue Jason is

00:54:19

to have a president as I said in

00:54:21

response to David

00:54:23

friedberg's earlier question on debt a

00:54:26

president who's willing to sacrifice

00:54:29

some popularity to try to force a

00:54:32

resolution

00:54:33

and I do think

00:54:34

that most Americans

00:54:37

would support a merit-based immigration

00:54:40

system why does it never come up I mean

00:54:42

it's if these other countries have had

00:54:43

such great success with it why won't any

00:54:45

politician say it I haven't heard you

00:54:47

say it in the debates I don't know if

00:54:49

you have I haven't heard everything

00:54:50

you've said but they'd even ask us about

00:54:51

immigration in the debates they next

00:54:53

comes on immigration entitlements or the

00:54:56

debt three things we've already talked

00:54:58

about here today but they had time to

00:55:01

ask me about UFOs

00:55:02

yeah that was pretty bizarre they're

00:55:05

like hey

00:55:06

the most meaningless

00:55:11

setup for us uh Governor um let's talk

00:55:14

about UFOs I mean what did you think of

00:55:16

the ending of secession Governor yeah I

00:55:18

mean you know it's like

00:55:20

I mean so

00:55:22

um so I have talked about my town hall

00:55:23

meetings about

00:55:25

Republicans should be advocating for a

00:55:27

merit-based immigration system

00:55:30

but we need to also recognize

00:55:33

while I think both parties

00:55:36

will be in should be in favor of a

00:55:39

secure Southern border

00:55:41

if for no other reason than the Fentanyl

00:55:44

and drug related issues that are that

00:55:47

are involved

00:55:48

why is there such a debate over the

00:55:50

numbers because you know I I just pulled

00:55:52

up those numbers and that's the border

00:55:54

patrol and that's across multiple

00:55:55

administrations and then people are

00:55:57

saying you're living in a simulation

00:55:58

Jason do you see the Washington Post

00:55:59

just last week the headline is families

00:56:03

Crossing U.S border illegally reached

00:56:04

all-time high in August this is the

00:56:07

Washington Post oh you trust the

00:56:10

Washington Post now I'm saying that if a

00:56:12

liberal Democrat publication that serves

00:56:15

the DC blob

00:56:17

is admitting this problem why can't you

00:56:19

admit it oh I'm not saying that it's not

00:56:22

at all-time Highs but it doesn't seem to

00:56:25

have gotten much different than over the

00:56:28

last two administrations like it's not a

00:56:30

serious problem no no I don't I promise

00:56:32

you I'm not worried about my job

00:56:36

as the United States can't absorb a

00:56:39

million migrants that's my question

00:56:40

obviously I care about it so don't tell

00:56:43

me I don't care about I'm just fact

00:56:44

checking that that it's fine to fact

00:56:46

check but even though it's at all-time

00:56:48

highs if you look at that chart it seems

00:56:51

like there's a big debate on the numbers

00:56:52

that hey maybe at all-time Highs but

00:56:54

it's been relatively the same and so

00:56:57

that's what I'm trying to get at

00:56:58

Governor why why can't we get good

00:57:00

numbers on this well we do get good

00:57:02

numbers on it but everybody slices the

00:57:05

numbers differently

00:57:07

you know

00:57:08

um I I I used to work in a deli when I

00:57:11

was in high school for a period of time

00:57:13

and you know everybody had the same big

00:57:16

chunk of baloney

00:57:18

but depending on how you sliced it

00:57:20

um it looked different

00:57:22

and so I agree with David that it is

00:57:27

a very serious problem right now

00:57:30

and it's because of Biden's policies

00:57:34

and his rhetoric he sent a very clear

00:57:37

signal during the 2020 campaign if I win

00:57:40

the borders open let's go everybody come

00:57:44

on in

00:57:45

and it has caused a crisis in a number

00:57:48

of levels also

00:57:50

Democratic politicians saying that they

00:57:53

were willing to be Sanctuary cities and

00:57:54

Sanctuary States

00:57:56

well now I see the front page of the New

00:57:59

York Post every day

00:58:01

and and here's Eric Adams complaining

00:58:04

that he needs help

00:58:06

he needs help well you should have shut

00:58:09

up

00:58:10

and not said you were a sanctuary City

00:58:13

and then you wouldn't need the help but

00:58:15

it's easy did you see the video

00:58:17

yesterday he said that all his time in

00:58:19

New York he's always seen an end to

00:58:21

every problem there's always a solution

00:58:22

he says I have not seen I cannot see an

00:58:26

end to this problem I don't see a

00:58:27

solution yeah

00:58:32

no he didn't I'm in favor of the point

00:58:36

system have been very consistent about

00:58:38

that I think we should actually have a

00:58:40

thoughtful discussion of how many people

00:58:42

we can actually bring in and sustain you

00:58:44

know that that's the obvious discussion

00:58:46

we all agree on merit-based immigration

00:58:48

the thing that I have an issue with

00:58:50

Jason is just you pretend like the

00:58:51

borders not in crisis it is in crisis oh

00:58:54

yeah I think it's it's it's not it

00:58:57

hasn't been resolved for decades right I

00:59:00

mean we we have not had a solution there

00:59:02

but when's the last time the Border was

00:59:04

functional Trump at least had to remain

00:59:06

a Mexico policy and then Biden revoked

00:59:08

it and now they're thinking about

00:59:09

bringing it back because they have no

00:59:10

way to control the huge number of people

00:59:12

who are streaming across yeah I'm just

00:59:14

trying to advocate for a point-based

00:59:15

system by the way on the numbers yeah

00:59:18

that's what should be part of a

00:59:19

negotiation between Republicans and

00:59:22

Democrats in Congress in the White House

00:59:24

yeah based upon the current

00:59:27

circumstances we can't deal with all the

00:59:30

stuff that's happened before but what we

00:59:32

know now is we have current

00:59:34

circumstances now guys

00:59:36

which are not only impacting quality of

00:59:39

life in terms of crime

00:59:41

and quality of life in terms of

00:59:44

Education

00:59:46

because you see what's going to happen

00:59:47

in the New York school system

00:59:49

and you know you are going to have

00:59:52

thousands

00:59:54

of immigrant children who now are going

00:59:56

to show up at the New York City Public

00:59:57

Schools

00:59:59

to be educated

01:00:01

um that's why the uncontrolled part of

01:00:04

what

01:00:05

um of what David Sachs is talking about

01:00:07

is is so vital right now

01:00:11

and thirdly but most importantly to me

01:00:13

is the fentanyl issue

01:00:16

because when you have 110 000 people

01:00:18

dying of overdoses last year in this

01:00:20

country and you have overdose being the

01:00:22

number one killer of men between 18 and

01:00:24

34

01:00:26

it is a crisis and it is a crisis which

01:00:29

is not created entirely by the border

01:00:32

but is contributed to mightily

01:00:34

by what's going on at the border would

01:00:36

you send uh there's been talk of this I

01:00:38

think from certain candidates would you

01:00:41

send troops into Mexico to take out the

01:00:44

cartels or is that no I know I would not

01:00:47

I would put National Guard at the border

01:00:50

to work with Customs and Border Patrol

01:00:53

um to stop the fentanyl uh cartels from

01:00:57

getting in to our country and I would

01:01:00

use our intelligence community

01:01:02

to do what we always do with enemies of

01:01:06

that nature which is to Target them

01:01:08

and to make sure that if they're going

01:01:10

to do what they're going to do that

01:01:11

they're that they're dealt with but in

01:01:13

terms of a Ron DeSantis full-scale

01:01:16

invasion of Mexico yeah I think I'd

01:01:18

probably demure on that one you'd whack

01:01:20

these people bring in the Fentanyl and

01:01:22

you just wouldn't do it on the soil in

01:01:24

Mexico correct and also

01:01:27

um and I'd whack them within the laws of

01:01:30

the United States sure it would not be a

01:01:33

vigilante system where everybody goes

01:01:35

down there and just starts popping

01:01:36

somebody they think is a fentanyl dealer

01:01:38

if they come over the Border

01:01:40

um but what I would also say to you is

01:01:42

we've got to we've got to also make sure

01:01:47

we deal with this diplomatically with

01:01:50

the Mexicans and by diplomatically I

01:01:51

mean not like being nice through very

01:01:54

hard negotiations with them to say to

01:01:57

the Mexican president

01:01:58

like you have you are importing

01:02:01

precursor chemicals from China

01:02:04

into your country to make fentanyl

01:02:07

with the sole purpose of profiting from

01:02:10

and killing Americans

01:02:12

that's not something we're going to

01:02:13

tolerate so you wouldn't send Fury out

01:02:15

we got it I mean we do it the smart way

01:02:19

not the way that lets you pound your

01:02:21

chest and pretend you're you're you know

01:02:23

television let me double click on that

01:02:25

since you you brought up fentanyl we

01:02:27

have this crisis here in San Francisco

01:02:28

open air drug Market cheapest fentanyl

01:02:30

you can get plus we give subsidies if

01:02:32

you come here and you're a fentanyl

01:02:33

addict we we pay for you to come here

01:02:36

essentially it's absolute chaos we keep

01:02:38

getting promises in San Francisco that

01:02:40

we're going to turn around and we're

01:02:41

going to take it seriously it never

01:02:42

happens

01:02:44

given that is there not a case for the

01:02:47

feds coming in and cracking down on the

01:02:49

fentanyl trade here and if you were

01:02:51

president would you come in and you

01:02:53

sharp the local authorities and just

01:02:55

take out all these crazy open-air drug

01:02:57

markets in some cities like Los Angeles

01:02:59

and San Francisco I actually said that

01:03:02

in the debate what I would do

01:03:05

um

01:03:05

would be to instruct the Attorney

01:03:07

General

01:03:08

to instruct the U.S attorneys in the

01:03:10

cities with these kind of problems that

01:03:13

we are taking over the prosecution of

01:03:16

violent and Drug crime in those cities

01:03:19

if the prosecutors on the state level

01:03:21

are unwilling to do it the U.S attorneys

01:03:23

have the laws under the on the federal

01:03:24

books to do it we have the rooms of the

01:03:27

federal prisons and we will police these

01:03:29

cities until they get their act together

01:03:31

they just got a couple million votes in

01:03:34

California because people here are fed

01:03:35

up with the locals Governor can I just

01:03:37

push back on that I recently started

01:03:39

reading the Federalist papers again sex

01:03:42

I don't know when you last reviewed them

01:03:44

and I'm just struck by how so much of

01:03:46

our modern political rhetoric is driven

01:03:48

by what the federal government will do

01:03:50

for you on a national basis a state

01:03:52

basis and now even a local basis is that

01:03:55

really the role of the Federal

01:03:56

Government no or should each state and

01:03:58

each City ultimately decide what the

01:04:01

hell kind of City they want to build

01:04:02

what they want to live in and then deal

01:04:04

with the consequences and let the

01:04:06

federal government become responsible

01:04:08

for the things that were defined in our

01:04:10

Constitution and that the constitutional

01:04:12

republic was meant to set out to do for

01:04:14

the federal government rather than use

01:04:16

the federal government as a hammer to

01:04:18

smash all Nails everywhere at some point

01:04:20

the hammer is going to break

01:04:23

so let me answer the question which is

01:04:26

no it's not the role the federal

01:04:27

government to do it unless

01:04:30

the Discord and the inability of the

01:04:34

states to deal with an issue begins to

01:04:36

affect the entire country

01:04:39

and I believe that these this failure

01:04:43

and it's by the way it's a planned

01:04:44

failure David this is the Soros group

01:04:47

going around and electing these

01:04:50

completely liberal prosecutors who say

01:04:53

no I don't I'm not gonna prosecute these

01:04:56

crimes anymore

01:04:58

it begins to affect the very nature of

01:05:00

the entire country if we don't have

01:05:02

functional cities David we can't have a

01:05:05

functional country and so no I would do

01:05:08

this only because I think by the time I

01:05:11

get there in January 25 we are going to

01:05:13

be at Last Resort World

01:05:15

now if

01:05:17

in the interim between now and January

01:05:19

of 25

01:05:21

the Discord in places like San Francisco

01:05:23

Los Angeles Chicago New York and others

01:05:28

got so bad that the citizens There Rose

01:05:30

up and demanded something different

01:05:32

and the states and cities started to

01:05:34

respond to it

01:05:36

I'm no interest in doing this unless we

01:05:38

are

01:05:39

the law enforcers of Last Resort and so

01:05:42

philosophically I completely agree with

01:05:44

you but we're now in a situation where

01:05:48

when I was in New York City all day

01:05:51

yesterday

01:05:52

it is

01:05:54

the worst I've seen New York City since

01:05:57

the late 70s I agree yeah and I was old

01:06:00

enough then to go in I was a high school

01:06:02

student in the late 70s and go into the

01:06:05

City and my parents used to be petrified

01:06:07

if I insisted on going into New York to

01:06:09

go to a basketball game or a hockey game

01:06:11

the walk from the Port Authority bus

01:06:13

terminal on 41st and 8th to Madison

01:06:16

Square Garden on 33rd and 8th was a

01:06:19

absolute youthful uh youthful education

01:06:24

um on drugs and porn and and violent

01:06:28

crime but so I agree with you

01:06:30

philosophically on that but I think in

01:06:32

the instance we're in right now this is

01:06:35

what we'd have to do in order to get it

01:06:37

back under control

01:06:39

um and so I'm not thrilled about it but

01:06:41

I think it's absolutely necessary in the

01:06:43

United States we have somewhere between

01:06:45

two and three million Americans

01:06:47

incarcerated

01:06:49

one of the highest per capita

01:06:50

incarceration rates of any country in

01:06:52

the world

01:06:53

and a lot of this Justice Reform

01:06:56

movement arose from what are considered

01:06:59

to be very deep inequities in the

01:07:02

imprisonment of

01:07:04

of American citizens for various Petty

01:07:07

crimes misdemeanors that turn into

01:07:09

felonies that turn into three strikes

01:07:11

that turn into spending your life in

01:07:12

prison and that obviously there's a big

01:07:15

racial divide in how this affects the

01:07:16

population and from that movement arose

01:07:19

this effort to try and address the

01:07:21

social inequities and how the prison

01:07:23

system has become to some an extension

01:07:25

or the follow-on to America's toward

01:07:29

history with slavery

01:07:30

what is your point of view then do we

01:07:34

have inequities in the prison system in

01:07:37

how we address crime in this country and

01:07:39

if so what would the right path have

01:07:41

been looking back now at the efforts and

01:07:43

the dollars that have gone into trying

01:07:44

to solve this problem through

01:07:46

decriminalization that has obviously led

01:07:48

to massive problems in in inner cities

01:07:50

is it a problem the criminalization in

01:07:52

this country the incarceration of this

01:07:53

country and if so what's the right path

01:07:55

to addressing it and obviously you have

01:07:57

an intimate history here so you would

01:07:59

know this better than most that we would

01:08:00

talk to yeah look I think it is a

01:08:02

problem and let me tell you what I did

01:08:03

as governor we did Criminal Justice

01:08:06

Reform in New Jersey and we did it in a

01:08:08

bipartisan way and this is what we did

01:08:12

I thought

01:08:14

that the biggest problem we had in New

01:08:16

Jersey was our

01:08:18

um our state constitution required it

01:08:21

was a shall issue State on bail

01:08:24

everyone was entitled to bail under our

01:08:27

Constitution and

01:08:30

the only factor that could be taken into

01:08:32

account

01:08:33

constitutionally David was risk of

01:08:35

flight

01:08:37

so if you had a rap sheet as long as my

01:08:39

arm and your arm put together

01:08:41

that could not be considered by a judge

01:08:43

in whether or not to Grant bail or not

01:08:45

nor could the the nature of the violence

01:08:48

you committed in those Acts

01:08:51

I saw that as enormous problem

01:08:54

I agreed with Democrats that on a lot of

01:08:57

these minor drug crimes and I don't mean

01:08:59

dealing crimes I mean possession crimes

01:09:02

with addicts being arrested for small

01:09:05

amounts of possession

01:09:07

that we had become a debtors prison in

01:09:09

New Jersey

01:09:10

that if somebody couldn't afford the 500

01:09:14

bucks

01:09:15

for the minimum L which was usually five

01:09:17

thousand dollars

01:09:18

they spent more time in in county and

01:09:21

state prison

01:09:22

than they ever would have spent if

01:09:24

they'd you know just pled guilty and

01:09:26

been allowed to plead guilty and get

01:09:28

sentenced so the deal we made was this

01:09:32

on certain defined non-violent crimes

01:09:36

I would agree to

01:09:38

the state law allowing release on

01:09:40

people's own recognizance

01:09:43

in return

01:09:45

the Democrats would amend our

01:09:47

constitution

01:09:49

to make it a May issue State on bail

01:09:52

and to add dangerousness to the

01:09:54

community as a factor to be considered

01:09:56

in granting bail or not what's happened

01:09:59

since then crime in New Jersey is down

01:10:02

since we did this we closed two state

01:10:05

prisons

01:10:07

and

01:10:09

we have not had any spike in violent

01:10:11

crime like you've seen in New York since

01:10:13

then

01:10:14

because we did it smartly and in a way

01:10:17

that was balanced

01:10:19

and what you've also seen is

01:10:22

98 of the people released on the Rogue

01:10:24

recognizance have shown back up for

01:10:26

their Court hearings

01:10:28

so we're not having some you know people

01:10:30

running around and jumping the RoR

01:10:34

um release that they've gotten

01:10:36

and I took one of the two state prisons

01:10:38

we closed and turned it into a drug

01:10:42

treatment prison so that folks who had

01:10:44

documented drug and alcohol addictions

01:10:48

while in prison

01:10:50

were able to go for the concluding parts

01:10:52

of their term

01:10:54

to this secondary prison

01:10:56

to get which is fully secure

01:10:59

and they were detained but they also got

01:11:02

drug and alcohol treatment

01:11:04

while they were in there and what we've

01:11:06

seen with that is we've seen recidivism

01:11:08

drop among those people who've gone

01:11:10

through that program

01:11:11

by nearly 40 percent

01:11:14

there are ways we can do this

01:11:16

without having the results New York has

01:11:18

had through their ridiculous Criminal

01:11:21

Justice Reform

01:11:22

we could do it the right way across the

01:11:25

whole country have you seen other states

01:11:27

follow New Jersey's later or New

01:11:28

Jersey's model or I have seen a couple

01:11:31

of other states that have done it

01:11:33

um I don't think anybody's done it as

01:11:34

well as we did it and Imagine This

01:11:37

you know a republican governor

01:11:42

got support from the PBA and the fop for

01:11:47

that reform

01:11:49

so from law enforcement professionals

01:11:50

and got an A plus from the ACLU

01:11:55

now when you can get both of those

01:11:58

it's kind of hard to get that done and I

01:12:01

think we've gotten it done and we just

01:12:03

had a at my policy Institute we just had

01:12:05

a seminar on this from people from the

01:12:08

public defenders

01:12:09

to criminal private criminal defense

01:12:11

lawyers

01:12:12

prosecutors

01:12:14

and cops all on a panel and not one of

01:12:17

them had an objection to Criminal

01:12:18

Justice Reform in New Jersey

01:12:20

and this is now

01:12:22

nearly 10 years after we did it

01:12:24

so I think there are ways to do this

01:12:27

um unfortunately a lot of people don't

01:12:30

want to have an a long-form conversation

01:12:33

on Criminal Justice Reform

01:12:36

um they want to have either the Joe

01:12:38

Biden approach from when he was in the

01:12:40

Senate mandatory minimums for everybody

01:12:42

for everybody in the can three strikes

01:12:45

you're out all that stuff or they want

01:12:47

to have the George Soros conversation

01:12:50

you know where

01:12:51

um nobody who commits a crime really

01:12:53

meant to do it and all jail is unfair

01:12:57

both of those are dead wrong Governor

01:12:59

you mentioned the FBI

01:13:00

briefly before one of the revelations

01:13:02

that came out during the Twitter files

01:13:04

is that we had 80 FBI agents monitoring

01:13:07

American social media accounts and

01:13:11

submitting takedown requests to Twitter

01:13:14

this is your pre-elon Twitter and

01:13:17

presumably many other big tech companies

01:13:19

because I'm sure they weren't just doing

01:13:20

this with Twitter

01:13:22

what business is it of the FBI to be

01:13:25

monitoring and censoring Americans do

01:13:27

you think there's any justification for

01:13:28

that what is your view of that I think

01:13:31

the only reason to monitor those kind of

01:13:33

things would be for terrorist

01:13:35

information and I think that would be

01:13:38

that would be reasonable to do

01:13:40

um but I don't think for any other

01:13:42

reason other than terrorist activity

01:13:45

domestic or foreign I think the FBI has

01:13:49

a right to do that and I think it's the

01:13:51

right thing to do

01:13:53

um but I don't think under any other

01:13:55

circumstances today but they should be

01:13:57

doing that are you willing to say to

01:13:59

Chris I understand it you you

01:14:00

recommended Chris Ray for the position

01:14:02

many years ago and and you're I think

01:14:05

you're a fan of his are you willing to

01:14:07

say to him knock this off you should not

01:14:10

be

01:14:10

you know involved in censoring American

01:14:13

social media accounts I'm willing to say

01:14:15

to Chris exactly what I just said to you

01:14:17

and and by the way

01:14:19

I've known Chris long enough I mean we

01:14:22

were in the bush justice department

01:14:23

together starting back at nine you know

01:14:26

write the immediate Post 9 11 period so

01:14:28

I've known Chris now for 22 years

01:14:31

um I will say exactly what I think to

01:14:33

Chris and we'll instruct him

01:14:35

appropriately with the attorney general

01:14:37

and let me just make a point David since

01:14:39

you brought that up I don't think

01:14:41

presidents should be involved

01:14:43

in the criminal investigatory activity

01:14:46

of the Department of Justice in any way

01:14:50

and so you should set policies that say

01:14:53

like that

01:14:54

you know your work should be restricted

01:14:57

on monitoring to just domestic or inner

01:15:00

or or International terrorism

01:15:03

but you shouldn't be commenting in any

01:15:05

way on what they're doing from a

01:15:08

criminal investigatory perspective I

01:15:10

think that started in the Obama years

01:15:12

with Eric Holder when you appoint your

01:15:15

wingman attorney general I guess that's

01:15:17

what happens

01:15:18

and the fact is that it's continued

01:15:21

through the Trump years and now through

01:15:22

the Biden years and my instruction to my

01:15:25

attorney general will be the same as it

01:15:26

was because in New Jersey we don't elect

01:15:28

attorney general we appoint them like

01:15:30

you do in the federal system and what I

01:15:33

said to each of my Attorneys General was

01:15:34

I know I was a U.S attorney for seven

01:15:36

years I got a lot of expertise and

01:15:38

opinions on criminal prosecution I'm

01:15:41

never going to call you ever

01:15:44

and I never did because once you decide

01:15:46

to be a political figure and not a law

01:15:48

enforcement figure you should stay out

01:15:50

of criminal investigations so I know you

01:15:53

didn't ask it but it struck me when you

01:15:55

were talking about that Governor let me

01:15:56

ask let me ask you one last question

01:15:58

from my end which is why are you running

01:16:00

for president recent polling data shows

01:16:02

a 52 unfavorable rating 23 favorable and

01:16:06

you're a three and a half percent in the

01:16:08

average of the national polls what's the

01:16:10

goal here help us understand how you

01:16:12

think about the campaign and how you

01:16:14

think about your future

01:16:16

as a political operator and what your

01:16:18

goal is with the campaign

01:16:20

my goal is to be president of the United

01:16:22

States and since I've been doing this

01:16:24

for a while I don't pay attention to

01:16:26

National polls

01:16:27

because we don't have a national primary

01:16:29

and in fact we don't have a national

01:16:30

general election

01:16:32

what we have is 50 individual State

01:16:34

elections that's the way we nominate

01:16:36

candidates and if you look at the most

01:16:38

recent poll in New Hampshire I'm in

01:16:40

second place in New Hampshire at 14

01:16:42

percent

01:16:43

ahead of Ron DeSantis ahead of Vivek

01:16:45

ahead of Nikki ahead of Pence

01:16:48

um and behind only Trump

01:16:50

and now I'm behind by 20 points I'll

01:16:52

give you that but I'm behind a guy who's

01:16:55

only at 34 percent

01:16:57

in that poll

01:16:58

and so I absolutely believe I can win

01:17:01

New Hampshire and I believe if I win New

01:17:03

Hampshire David then the whole race

01:17:06

changes you have a line there yeah yeah

01:17:08

right so so let's start off with I'm

01:17:11

running because I want to be president

01:17:12

United States yep and that's the only

01:17:14

reason to run I think I I don't need to

01:17:17

run to become famous

01:17:19

I'm famous enough

01:17:20

I don't need to run to I don't need to

01:17:23

run to get a book deal

01:17:25

because you know what I've already

01:17:27

written two books and my third one's

01:17:28

getting ready to come out I don't need

01:17:30

to get a job on TV I gave that up to run

01:17:33

for president so I'm running for

01:17:35

president to be president David and and

01:17:38

that's why I'm doing it and for no other

01:17:40

reason should Donald Trump be in jail

01:17:43

we'll find out when these Trials happen

01:17:45

what do you think I'm willing to give

01:17:47

everybody the perception of Innocence

01:17:48

because that's what the Constitution

01:17:49

demands that I do

01:17:54

criterial intuition I would have

01:17:56

indicted both Federal cases I would not

01:17:59

have indicted the New York case or the

01:18:01

Atlanta case as to Donald Trump I think

01:18:04

on the New York case the Manhattan D.A

01:18:05

has a much more important work to be

01:18:07

doing than bringing a case on a

01:18:10

seven-year-old payment to a porn star

01:18:12

that he was having an affair with to

01:18:14

keep it from the American people after

01:18:16

the American people already know

01:18:17

everything they need to know about it so

01:18:19

I think that was useless and purely

01:18:21

political in the Atlanta case once Jack

01:18:24

Smith indicted Trump on Election

01:18:27

interference federally

01:18:29

I know that

01:18:30

um Fannie Willis was probably very upset

01:18:32

that she had been investigating it for

01:18:34

two and a half years and he beat her to

01:18:36

the punch but he beat her to the punch

01:18:38

and there's no reason to indict somebody

01:18:40

for the same acts twice

01:18:43

and so I wouldn't have invited him in

01:18:45

Atlanta I would have indicted him for

01:18:47

sure on the uh

01:18:50

documents case

01:18:52

but I will tell you since you asked I

01:18:54

wouldn't have indicted him on the

01:18:55

documents I would have just indicted him

01:18:57

on the obstruction of justice and the

01:19:00

lying

01:19:01

I think by indicting on the documents

01:19:03

you just made it a much more complicated

01:19:04

case that may not get to trial for a

01:19:06

year and a half or two because of the

01:19:09

classified documents involved and I

01:19:11

would have invited him on the January

01:19:12

6th case because I believe his activity

01:19:15

um from election night forward

01:19:19

um is worthy of the probable cause

01:19:21

standard now we'll see if the government

01:19:25

can prove it Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

01:19:27

on both those cases I will tell you but

01:19:31

on those cases that you would bring that

01:19:33

you would indict as a prosecutor what

01:19:34

sentence would you seek because you know

01:19:37

these Democrat prosecutors are seeking

01:19:39

over 500 years of jail time for Trump I

01:19:42

mean what do you think that's just the

01:19:44

status David that's just the statutory

01:19:46

number it's not whatever is done and

01:19:50

people do that all the time they look at

01:19:51

the statutory maximum they add up each

01:19:53

count and the statutory maximum and they

01:19:55

come up to five it never happens and

01:19:57

it's never asked though yeah and it's

01:19:59

never asked for

01:20:01

um what you do if you were the

01:20:02

prosecutor what punishment would you be

01:20:04

seeking I don't think that it makes any

01:20:07

sense

01:20:09

um for Donald Trump to go to jail

01:20:11

and it's not just because he's Donald

01:20:13

Trump

01:20:14

it has more to do quite frankly with the

01:20:16

fact that he'd probably be 79 years old

01:20:19

before he'd be ready to go to jail and

01:20:22

when I was Prosecuting cases I really

01:20:24

felt like when you get to that age and

01:20:27

you send someone into the atmosphere

01:20:28

that federal prison is even the minimum

01:20:31

security federal prison that you're

01:20:33

essentially giving them a death sentence

01:20:35

and unless they've done something with

01:20:38

like Bernie Madoff for instance which is

01:20:40

worthy of a death sentence

01:20:42

then I I would not think that sending

01:20:45

him to jail would be appropriate

01:20:48

um now

01:20:49

I you know a judge may feel differently

01:20:52

and in the end all the prosecutor does

01:20:54

is make a recommendation

01:20:56

the judge makes a decision

01:20:58

if I were president of the United States

01:20:59

well I would not consider pardoning

01:21:02

Donald Trump if he were convicted unless

01:21:05

the trial for some reason showed itself

01:21:07

to have you know unconstitutionally

01:21:09

unfair elements that were not corrected

01:21:12

by the courts

01:21:13

other than that I wouldn't pardon him

01:21:15

but if he were sentenced to jail I

01:21:18

certainly would consider commuting the

01:21:20

sentence for the reasons I just said

01:21:22

let's talk about what happened on

01:21:23

January 6th or a second a lot of folks

01:21:25

in the Republican Party are framing it

01:21:27

as like you know a day out at the park

01:21:30

and uh we just saw Trump appointed

01:21:32

judges give The Oath Keepers

01:21:35

and the proud boys

01:21:37

sentences multi-decade sentences for

01:21:40

seditious conspiracy do you think this

01:21:42

these sentences that have been handed

01:21:45

down by Trump appointed judges are part

01:21:48

of a deep state conspiracy against the

01:21:50

Republicans or do you think these people

01:21:52

are domestic terrorists and that they

01:21:54

got appropriate sentences

01:21:56

you know I don't want to she used to

01:21:58

give an answer on each one of the cases

01:22:00

because I quite frankly

01:22:01

could tell you that I haven't followed

01:22:03

the cases each one of them closely

01:22:04

enough you just did on the other four

01:22:06

let's give an opinion pardon me you just

01:22:08

did on the other four though

01:22:10

I don't know

01:22:11

there were no

01:22:13

you're asking me about

01:22:15

that was the Trump cases yeah and I'm

01:22:18

talking about and I said that because of

01:22:20

his age okay all right and so none of

01:22:24

these folks are the proud boys I think

01:22:25

we're in their 70s okay so that's the

01:22:28

difference between the two but I'm gonna

01:22:30

try to answer your question great I just

01:22:32

don't want to say I'm giving an opinion

01:22:34

as to each and every sentence okay what

01:22:37

I want to say about it though is that

01:22:38

what they did on January 6th

01:22:41

was unlawful

01:22:44

it was extremely serious

01:22:46

and it requires imprisonment

01:22:49

okay and so each of these individual

01:22:52

cases have nuances and individual facts

01:22:54

through them that I'm not I will tell

01:22:56

you I'm not completely conversant in

01:22:58

okay so the difference between a 15-year

01:23:01

sentence and an 18-year sentence over

01:23:03

22-year sentence

01:23:05

if I sat down and I delved into what was

01:23:08

presented at trial and what was

01:23:09

presented in the sentencing memoranda

01:23:12

I'd give you an opinion but I haven't

01:23:14

done that enough to be honest can I ask

01:23:16

one final question

01:23:17

from my perspective one of the reasons

01:23:19

that

01:23:21

the polling can sometimes Veer this way

01:23:24

is that

01:23:25

in the Republican polls a lot of the

01:23:27

attacks against you

01:23:29

Governor focus on

01:23:31

obviously Bridge gate and Beach gate and

01:23:33

then this kind of like

01:23:37

theoretical corruption allegations

01:23:39

directed at you and your staff now your

01:23:42

staff was convicted of wire fraud but

01:23:43

then the Supreme Court overturned it

01:23:45

nine to zero right and now what they

01:23:48

said though was that there was

01:23:49

corruption but there wasn't corruption

01:23:51

to try to get money which is why the

01:23:53

wire fraud I think that's what Elena

01:23:55

Kagan said in the ruling the majority

01:23:56

ruling it was and it was 9-0 so it was

01:23:58

very very clear that

01:24:00

the doj just kind of took again to your

01:24:03

case talking about Trump the wrong

01:24:05

charges almost okay and what they did

01:24:07

was not illegal even if what they did

01:24:08

may have been illegal under a different

01:24:10

Statute in any event

01:24:12

it would be great for you to set the

01:24:14

record on Bridgegate and Beach gate

01:24:16

we're really calling Beach gate well I'm

01:24:20

just calling it up like really well I

01:24:22

think what people got upset was and I'm

01:24:24

just going to repeat this I don't have

01:24:25

an issue with this is there was a State

01:24:27

Beach that was closed and there was

01:24:28

pictures of you and your family on that

01:24:30

beach when everybody else was told to

01:24:32

stay at home that's I get I guess that's

01:24:34

what people point to I'm just giving you

01:24:35

that just say just address it however

01:24:37

you want so you can be definitive in

01:24:39

your own language all right so let's

01:24:42

deal with um the beach situation

01:24:45

um every beach in New Jersey that day

01:24:49

was open except for one

01:24:52

every beach in New Jersey so the idea

01:24:55

that people across the state of New

01:24:57

Jersey were kept off the beach that day

01:24:59

and me and my family were the only

01:25:01

people on the beach is completely wrong

01:25:05

so everybody who wanted to go to the

01:25:08

beach that day could go to the beach

01:25:10

somewhere in New Jersey except for the

01:25:12

state park and the reason the state park

01:25:14

was closed was because the legislature

01:25:17

did not send me a budget

01:25:19

in time

01:25:21

if they sent me a budget I would have

01:25:22

signed it and the beach would have been

01:25:23

open they refused to send me a budget

01:25:25

now having said that factually

01:25:28

contextually

01:25:30

it was a mistake for me to go on the

01:25:32

beach now I told everybody when the the

01:25:35

budget standoff was going on that

01:25:39

my family was going to be at that house

01:25:42

and they were going to go on the beach

01:25:44

but we were not going to use any

01:25:45

services

01:25:47

lifeguards or garbage service or

01:25:49

anything else because it wouldn't be

01:25:50

open

01:25:51

so I told everybody that up front

01:25:55

I shouldn't have gone out there myself

01:25:57

because I was the governor it was a

01:25:59

mistake I went out there and spent an

01:26:01

hour with my family it was a mistake I

01:26:04

hardly think it merits a gate

01:26:07

yeah I wouldn't give it a game baby and

01:26:10

I and I would hardly call it corruption

01:26:12

okay yeah no it's not corruption on

01:26:15

bridge gate

01:26:17

let's remember

01:26:19

this has been investigated

01:26:21

by a democratic State Legislature with

01:26:23

subpoena power

01:26:25

by a democratic U.S attorney with an ax

01:26:28

to grind for me

01:26:30

with subpoena power

01:26:33

and in both of those investing and also

01:26:36

an investigation that we

01:26:39

um uh authorized internally

01:26:42

all three of the investigations agreed

01:26:44

on one thing

01:26:45

I had no knowledge of what happened no

01:26:48

one told me what was going on

01:26:49

and I didn't find out about it until

01:26:51

well after the fact

01:26:54

and nobody's ever disputed that who's

01:26:57

done an investigation and if they

01:26:59

thought I'd done something wrong

01:27:01

given that ridiculous indictments they

01:27:03

brought I'm sure they would have thrown

01:27:04

me in there too if they had anything

01:27:06

they could have gone with

01:27:08

these were three employees

01:27:11

who did something extraordinarily stupid

01:27:15

and they should have been fired and they

01:27:17

were

01:27:19

as soon as I found out about it they

01:27:21

were all fired

01:27:22

they should never work in public office

01:27:24

again

01:27:26

but what they did was stupid not

01:27:28

Criminal

01:27:30

and if we start criminalizing every time

01:27:31

someone does something stupid

01:27:33

we won't have enough jails and when you

01:27:37

get Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Clarence

01:27:39

Thomas

01:27:40

to agree on an overreach by the

01:27:43

Department of Justice it was a

01:27:45

politically motivated prosecution

01:27:46

because I had just been re-elected with

01:27:49

61 percent of the vote in a blue State

01:27:51

and was ahead of Hillary Clinton by

01:27:53

eight points in National polls

01:27:55

that's why they did it they thought they

01:27:57

were going to get me

01:27:59

they cooperated the guy who admits he

01:28:02

was The Mastermind of the situation they

01:28:05

cooperated him to try to get me

01:28:07

and once they realized they couldn't get

01:28:10

me they had to indict somebody so they

01:28:12

invited the two other people I believe

01:28:14

you I think that the I think the doj

01:28:16

engages in a lot of political

01:28:18

prosecutions why isn't Jack Smith's

01:28:21

prosecution politically minded and the

01:28:22

point I'll come back to is that Merrick

01:28:25

Garland did this analysis when he first

01:28:27

came in on whether Trump was guilty of

01:28:30

incitement on January 6 and they had

01:28:32

like a memo come back saying sorry we

01:28:34

can't get him for that there was then a

01:28:36

leak in the Washington Post from Biden

01:28:39

himself saying that he thought mayor

01:28:41

Garland was being kind of wimpy and that

01:28:43

they should go after Trump and then lo

01:28:44

and behold mayor Garland appoints Jack

01:28:47

Smith to go get Trump and Jack Smith's

01:28:49

case depends on knowing the inner

01:28:51

workings of Trump's mind this like fraud

01:28:53

on the American people idea that he not

01:28:56

only made up this stolen election

01:28:57

narrative but he knew it was false which

01:29:00

I don't see how they're ever going to

01:29:01

prove Beyond A Reasonable Doubt so why

01:29:03

isn't that a political prosecution I

01:29:05

mean Biden clearly wanted it he

01:29:07

instigated it through through a leak to

01:29:09

The Washington Post or at least that

01:29:11

seems to be the chronology whether it

01:29:13

was deliberate or not and it requires

01:29:15

Jack Smith to prove this impossible

01:29:16

Theory because it requires knowing what

01:29:19

Trump was really thinking when he was

01:29:21

saying all this stuff right so how is

01:29:22

that not an equally political

01:29:24

prosecution all right so let me separate

01:29:26

the two so you're talking just about

01:29:28

Jan's sixth not about the classified

01:29:31

documents correct I'm just talking about

01:29:33

the Jack Smith theory that Trump

01:29:35

perpetrated a fraud because he knew his

01:29:37

stolen election narrative was false well

01:29:40

look I think that there is going to be a

01:29:42

lot of interesting testimony

01:29:44

that will be given in that case

01:29:46

regarding what Donald Trump really knew

01:29:49

and what he really thought what he was

01:29:51

telling people at the time

01:29:52

and I don't think it's as clear-cut as

01:29:54

you're making it out to be now what I

01:29:56

said at the time when he brought the Jan

01:29:58

6 case is it is aggressive

01:30:02

there's no question it's an aggressive

01:30:04

prosecution

01:30:05

do I believe it's political I don't know

01:30:08

but I will say it's aggressive it's much

01:30:11

more aggressive than the classified

01:30:13

documents case because you're exactly

01:30:16

right that state of mind which is a part

01:30:19

of every criminal case will be a part of

01:30:21

this one and trying to get inside Donald

01:30:23

Trump's Minds is a dangerous thing

01:30:25

because he says so many contradictory

01:30:28

things right so you know he was saying

01:30:31

to me during debate prep

01:30:33

in 2020 that he was absolutely convinced

01:30:37

that um he could lose this election

01:30:41

not that it would be stolen that he

01:30:43

could lose it

01:30:44

because of covid and covid ruins his

01:30:47

great economy and now he's going to lose

01:30:50

so he said a lot of different things to

01:30:51

a lot of different people over time

01:30:54

um and all I'd say David is that

01:30:57

it is going to be an aggressive case to

01:30:59

prove

01:31:00

and by the way if they don't prove it it

01:31:04

will be a stain on the Department of

01:31:06

Justice for bringing the case at all

01:31:09

I have and then why support it I mean

01:31:11

look so hold on let me I'm going to

01:31:13

finish that okay I know what you're

01:31:14

going to say so I'll finish it I believe

01:31:17

given what I know

01:31:20

that Donald Trump does not believe that

01:31:22

the election was stolen

01:31:24

that's what I believe from knowing him

01:31:26

for 22 years

01:31:28

and from being with him in much of the

01:31:32

pre-election period and him expressing

01:31:34

his very genuine concerns about the fact

01:31:38

that he was losing to Biden and that he

01:31:40

could lose to Biden not because of

01:31:42

mail-in ballots because of covet

01:31:45

that I don't believe he really believes

01:31:47

the election was stolen but can you

01:31:49

prove that Beyond A Reasonable Doubt

01:31:50

well that's the that's the part that's

01:31:52

aggressive David and I don't know all

01:31:54

the evidence they have I suspect they've

01:31:56

got a number of people

01:31:58

who are going to tell the jury that

01:32:01

Trump told them

01:32:02

that he thought he lost

01:32:04

but we're gonna see but we're gonna see

01:32:06

and that's why I call it aggressive by

01:32:09

the way let me just get on the record

01:32:10

here that I agree with you that a lot of

01:32:12

the underlying Behavior was really bad

01:32:13

and I've said so on the Pod before I'm

01:32:15

not defending the underlying Behavior

01:32:17

what I question is the wisdom of one

01:32:20

president basically Biden his justice

01:32:23

department going after the former

01:32:26

president who is currently the leading

01:32:27

candidate in the election against him

01:32:29

and doing it within a year before the

01:32:33

election as opposed to three years ago

01:32:35

how is that wise David let me ask you a

01:32:38

question first off if they didn't Donald

01:32:40

if they had indicted Donald Trump

01:32:42

six months after January 6th you know

01:32:45

what everybody would have said brush the

01:32:47

judgment

01:32:48

no good investigation

01:32:50

they had this breed determined

01:32:53

you can't win as a prosecutor on that

01:32:56

one either you went too quick

01:32:58

or you waited too long

01:33:00

so I don't buy that at all I think it's

01:33:02

bull now

01:33:04

on the question of whether or not a

01:33:07

president should

01:33:09

allow his justice department to charge

01:33:12

someone

01:33:13

who is his predecessor and potentially

01:33:16

an opponent again

01:33:18

well what's the alternative

01:33:20

let's say on let's take it away from the

01:33:22

January 6th one and look at the

01:33:23

documents one

01:33:25

if he obstructed Justice

01:33:28

if he Glide and obstructed the grand

01:33:30

jury subpoena if he kept classified

01:33:33

documents he was not entitled to keep

01:33:35

and then hit them from his own lawyers

01:33:37

when they were trying to respond to that

01:33:39

if he instructed people to delete

01:33:41

surveillance camera video which would

01:33:44

have shown him having people move those

01:33:46

documents

01:33:47

then all you have to do is declare for

01:33:49

president

01:33:50

and you don't get prosecuted

01:33:52

I mean I understand it's a lousy

01:33:55

situation

01:33:56

but there are a number of people who

01:33:58

believe that the only reason Donald

01:34:00

Trump is running for president again

01:34:02

is to be able to make that argument

01:34:04

and so I understand

01:34:08

no no I think he wants retribution from

01:34:12

the sea to power

01:34:19

I'll do

01:34:20

I'll do so Governor Christie let me ask

01:34:22

you a question because you know Trump

01:34:24

do you think he tried to overturn the

01:34:26

election and do you think given the

01:34:28

chance to overturn the election and

01:34:30

steal the election Donald Trump based on

01:34:32

your knowledge of his character for

01:34:34

multiple decades and working with him do

01:34:36

you think he would have done it do you

01:34:37

think he's that criminal minded

01:34:41

I don't think he would have any he would

01:34:43

have had any problem with the election

01:34:45

being overturned okay and I think if it

01:34:48

if it if it was he would have been more

01:34:50

than happy to have his rear end sleeping

01:34:54

in the white house tonight

01:34:56

um now

01:34:58

I think he evolved to that position in

01:35:02

this respect

01:35:03

I've had the opportunity to meet

01:35:07

um a number of different presidents

01:35:08

every president going back to Bush 41.

01:35:12

every one of them regardless

01:35:16

of my disagreements with them on policy

01:35:20

we're matured and humbled by the office

01:35:24

except for him

01:35:26

okay the office made him worse

01:35:29

it made him a worse person I've known

01:35:32

him for 22 years

01:35:34

the guy I met in 2001. would not have

01:35:38

done

01:35:39

what 2020 Donald Trump did

01:35:42

and I think he is a perfect example of

01:35:44

power having corrupted someone to the

01:35:48

point where he was willing to not only

01:35:51

engage in that conduct

01:35:53

but to essentially threaten his own vice

01:35:56

president

01:35:58

um

01:35:59

do you think Russia gay played played a

01:36:01

role in that I mean meaning here Donald

01:36:03

Trump you know he's the ultimate

01:36:05

Outsider maybe he has a chip on his

01:36:06

shoulder about not being accepted in you

01:36:09

know by certain elements of society he

01:36:11

wins the White House as this huge shock

01:36:13

and rather than accepting it the entire

01:36:15

Democratic party said his election was

01:36:17

illegitimate and they claimed that

01:36:18

basically somehow Putin masterminded it

01:36:20

and then they subjected him to two years

01:36:22

of this Mueller investigation which

01:36:24

turned up nothing but they claimed that

01:36:26

he was based agent

01:36:43

I'm talking about him asking for help

01:36:45

from Russia you're the last person to

01:36:47

live in that simulation Jason correct

01:36:49

not asking the governor a question do

01:36:51

you think the two years of this Russia

01:36:52

gate Oaks basically drove Trump to this

01:36:55

Behavior or played a role in it

01:36:58

I'll go with your with your last piece

01:37:02

not the first one I I no doubt that it

01:37:04

contributed to his feeling that people

01:37:07

were after him no doubt and I said from

01:37:10

the beginning I thought the Russia thing

01:37:11

was complete crap and the reason I

01:37:13

thought it was was because I was there

01:37:15

in 2016.

01:37:16

that campaign was so bad

01:37:20

and so disorganized they couldn't have

01:37:22

arranged a two-car funeral let alone

01:37:25

conspired with the Russian government to

01:37:28

interfere with the election

01:37:29

I was there

01:37:31

it was amateurish and it won because

01:37:35

they ran against the worst presidential

01:37:38

candidate in my lifetime in Hillary

01:37:40

Clinton

01:37:41

so I said from the beginning I thought

01:37:44

the Russia investigation was

01:37:45

illegitimate and was wrong do I think it

01:37:47

contributed to his attitude I think it

01:37:49

did but I don't think David it would be

01:37:51

fair to say

01:37:53

that that's what made him that way

01:37:56

yeah

01:37:56

fair enough

01:37:59

it's a lot more than contributed to it

01:38:01

than that but yeah I would certainly

01:38:03

concede that because I objected to the

01:38:06

Russia investigation at the time in real

01:38:09

time to publicly kudos to you for that

01:38:11

because I think you've been Vindicated

01:38:12

by what's happened in the last few years

01:38:14

last question for me on documents okay

01:38:17

do you think that there's a selective

01:38:19

prosecution issue here because Sandy

01:38:22

Berger stuff documents in his pants from

01:38:25

a clean room never prosecuted Petraeus

01:38:27

had a huge classified documents problem

01:38:29

slap on the wrist I mean it seems like

01:38:32

and by the way Biden had documents by

01:38:35

his beloved Corvette and in offices all

01:38:37

over the place going back many years so

01:38:40

I mean isn't this document's case it

01:38:42

seems like no one really wanted to

01:38:43

prosecute this law until Trump did it

01:38:47

and now it's like get drunk now look I

01:38:50

think Trump did this one to himself

01:38:51

David if he had turned over the

01:38:53

documents he illegally had and at any

01:38:57

point when he was being requested to

01:38:58

from February of 2021 through to when

01:39:03

the search occurred there would be no

01:39:06

prosecution well I agree with that and

01:39:08

the problem let's get these other guys

01:39:10

because they gave the documents back

01:39:12

because look

01:39:13

Biden gave the documents back I mean

01:39:16

Penn State the documents back when asked

01:39:19

what this guy did was obstructed it in

01:39:22

every way he could I don't want people

01:39:24

looking through my boxes my boxes this

01:39:28

guy is like a freak and about these

01:39:30

boxes I'm telling you he I used to

01:39:32

campaign with him he would have a box of

01:39:35

documents now back then it was 2016. it

01:39:38

was a box of documents from Trump Tower

01:39:40

no one could touch them no one could

01:39:43

look at them he'd go through them a

01:39:45

little bit but they he literally had a

01:39:47

seat for his box of documents next to

01:39:50

him on his plane no one could sit next

01:39:53

to him the box of documents went next to

01:39:55

him so there's a psychosis here on the

01:39:58

documents David that's deep all right

01:40:00

okay but maybe but maybe that is to

01:40:03

himself he did it to himself walked into

01:40:06

it I agree he totally walked into this

01:40:08

he sprinted into it with his arms wide

01:40:11

open and he screwed himself but in the

01:40:14

process he screwed the country but what

01:40:16

you're describing is an idiosyncratic

01:40:18

issue he liked his boxes he had mementos

01:40:20

in them this was not a national security

01:40:22

issue and I'm sure it was how sure it

01:40:25

was how you cannot permit the president

01:40:27

United States to be flashing around in

01:40:30

Iran War plan on the on the deck in

01:40:33

Mar-A-Lago sorry not allowed especially

01:40:37

not after your president and you know

01:40:39

what he could have Declassified any

01:40:41

documents he wanted to when he's

01:40:42

president he didn't and now he's trying

01:40:45

to say he mind melded them to be

01:40:46

Declassified come on David this stuff is

01:40:49

such it's it's it's laughable

01:40:52

but you agree the president the

01:40:53

president has an unlimited authority to

01:40:55

Declassified documents right of course

01:40:57

so he didn't do it through the process

01:40:58

he wanted but who's to say that he

01:41:01

didn't do it no

01:41:03

his attorney general said he didn't do

01:41:04

it his White House counsel said it is he

01:41:07

did it so who's to say his view he

01:41:10

Declassified other documents the

01:41:12

appropriate way these he just thought

01:41:14

about declassifying therefore they were

01:41:15

Declassified come on

01:41:18

I agree it's a bad argument but I don't

01:41:20

know it's not a bad one David will make

01:41:22

it anyway David it's not a bad argument

01:41:24

it's not an argument come back anytime

01:41:27

you want Chris it's not you gotta sit in

01:41:28

I think you got to sit in I mean look I

01:41:31

you know I I will tell you guys like I

01:41:34

am very sympathetic to Executive

01:41:36

Authority

01:41:37

I've been a governor of the state that

01:41:39

has the strongest constitutional

01:41:41

governorship in America

01:41:44

but you gotta follow the law when the

01:41:48

law empowers you to the extent that the

01:41:50

United States president is empowered

01:41:52

that should be enough you shouldn't have

01:41:54

to act outside the law and here's why he

01:41:57

did it

01:41:58

he didn't do it to sell the documents he

01:42:01

didn't do them to give them to some

01:42:02

foreign power he did them to show off

01:42:06

look what I have look I'm still really

01:42:09

the president this is the real core

01:42:13

problem with him David but doesn't this

01:42:15

pale in comparison to the crimes of the

01:42:17

Biden family I mean

01:42:19

I don't know do we have time to talk

01:42:23

about the two billion dollars that Jared

01:42:25

Kushner has gotten from the Saudis and

01:42:28

why he got that money is it because he's

01:42:30

such an expert investor the guy who

01:42:33

bought 666 Fifth Avenue and nearly

01:42:36

bankrupted his entire company

01:42:38

I mean he's actually a pretty smart guy

01:42:40

I mean oh yeah oh no he's a genius he's

01:42:44

an absolute genius David and that's why

01:42:46

the Saudis gave him two billion dollars

01:42:48

he was out of office

01:42:57

collecting money David what why would a

01:43:02

president of the United States

01:43:04

when he has somebody like Mike Pompeo as

01:43:06

his secretary of state who's been a

01:43:08

congressman a West Point graduate member

01:43:12

of the military

01:43:13

CIA director Secretary of State

01:43:16

why is he sending Jared Kushner over

01:43:19

grift to negotiation results she got the

01:43:22

Abraham records

01:43:24

wait no no he gets the oh so now we're

01:43:28

not giving Pompeo the credit for the

01:43:30

Abraham Accords it's Jared Kushner look

01:43:34

in the end

01:43:35

Abraham Accords were a good idea or a

01:43:37

bad idea great idea great I want you to

01:43:40

give Kushner credit he was totally

01:43:42

involved no no he's involved

01:43:44

congratulations

01:43:46

why was he set in the first place

01:43:48

because of his extensive his extensive

01:43:50

foreign policy experience

01:43:54

apartment buildings in New Jersey

01:43:58

that's what he was doing so look

01:44:01

I absolutely believe that as I answered

01:44:04

your question very directly before that

01:44:07

the only reason Hunter Biden was hired

01:44:08

for these things was to get influence

01:44:10

with his father absolutely and I think

01:44:13

he should go to jail

01:44:14

but we can't look at the Jared and

01:44:17

Ivanka making 40 plus million dollars a

01:44:19

year while they were in the white house

01:44:21

getting two billion from the Saudis to

01:44:24

invest after they leave the White House

01:44:26

and say that's not a grift as well not

01:44:29

to mention the fact that he's spending

01:44:32

campaign money to pay his legal fees

01:44:34

when he's supposed to be a billionaire

01:44:37

how about you sell the Trump Tower

01:44:39

apartment since you don't live there

01:44:40

anymore and pay your legal fees with

01:44:42

that or how about sell one of your

01:44:45

friggin golf courses to pay your legal

01:44:47

fees with that but instead and a 100

01:44:50

average donation from Americans who

01:44:53

donated to something called save America

01:44:55

which was supposed to fight the steal of

01:44:59

the election is now being spent to pay

01:45:01

his legal fees because he took

01:45:03

classified documents illegally out of

01:45:05

the White House

01:45:06

and by the way that same organization

01:45:08

paid Kimberly Guilfoyle 60 Grand to give

01:45:12

a three-minute speech on January 6th and

01:45:14

paid 208 thousand dollars to Melania

01:45:17

stylist as political strategy she looks

01:45:21

great there's plenty of grift to go

01:45:23

around yeah and I'll tell you this the

01:45:24

grift is deep the Christie

01:45:26

Administration no member of my family

01:45:28

will make money off the fact that I'm

01:45:30

president you can't say that about Trump

01:45:32

or Biden okay this has been an amazing

01:45:43

all right I have no voice

01:45:45

final question when you did this karaoke

01:45:48

with David freyberg yes did you do

01:45:51

Thunder Road Living on a Prayer Rosalita

01:45:55

what was the song or did you guys I

01:45:58

don't remember duet I don't remember

01:46:00

which song David and I did together

01:46:03

but I did do Thunder Road carry on

01:46:05

fantastic in in that small bar in that

01:46:09

little town in Idaho beep event

01:46:11

like I do

01:46:12

also remember there being

01:46:15

um a karaoke on a Backstreet Boys song

01:46:19

oh that's definitely Freeburg yeah and I

01:46:23

don't think Freiburg was in that one I

01:46:24

don't think do you remember David which

01:46:26

song we did yeah and listen I remember

01:46:34

yeah there's got to be one in there

01:46:36

listen uh Governor we really appreciate

01:46:38

you coming on uh we wish you great

01:46:40

success congratulations on New Hampshire

01:46:42

and uh really really thank you um did a

01:46:46

great job today thank you for being so

01:46:47

forthright thank you guys for giving me

01:46:50

the uh look I love the opportunity to be

01:46:52

able to go into more depth about this in

01:46:54

anything other than UFOs so it's really

01:46:57

good really good oh wait we have another

01:47:00

hour of UFO questions

01:47:02

I would really encourage you to to

01:47:04

spread this Gospel of the most

01:47:07

thoughtful way to beat back corruption

01:47:08

is something like zero-based budgeting

01:47:11

across the entire front area I like that

01:47:13

too that was a great one nobody says it

01:47:15

people are I think RFK and Vivek

01:47:19

scratch it but I think you could nail it

01:47:22

if you take it and want to run with it

01:47:23

and

01:47:25

there's just a lot of money that's

01:47:27

probably sloshing on the sidelines that

01:47:29

needs to get reallocated I'm sure you

01:47:32

saw how viral Jon Stewart's interview

01:47:34

with the under secretary of defense for

01:47:35

Budget went that was an incredible

01:47:37

interview and obviously it hits a nerve

01:47:40

with a lot of people so it's a really

01:47:41

important point it speaks a lot to the

01:47:43

broader issue nice well I'm I'm glad to

01:47:46

be here I'm I'm I'm I'm happy that I did

01:47:49

not take my son's briefing

01:47:51

um but I can guarantee you that he's

01:47:52

going to be listening he's very stressed

01:47:54

he's actually he works for the New York

01:47:56

Mets he's down in Dominican Republic

01:47:58

today and he calls me from the Dr and he

01:48:01

said is today the all-in day and I said

01:48:04

yes today's the day he goes call me

01:48:06

right afterwards so he's gonna tell him

01:48:08

what are you gonna I'm gonna tell him it

01:48:10

was great we had a great two hours and

01:48:11

he's gonna enjoy listening to it and

01:48:13

yeah now anytime you guys want me back

01:48:15

I'm back

01:48:17

thank you very much I'm on the board

01:48:19

there too yeah I think that's a little

01:48:21

bit of a problem that may be worse than

01:48:23

zero-based budgeting I don't know at

01:48:25

least the next look like they built a

01:48:26

nice Foundation here don't give up on

01:48:29

the Mets yet wait till next time you're

01:48:30

not giving up we'll get there all right

01:48:34

two hours with the governor going around

01:48:35

the horn here Friedberg uh your thoughts

01:48:37

after two hours with Governor Christie

01:48:39

where was he strong where do you

01:48:42

disagree with him what do you think of

01:48:43

his presidency after two hours of

01:48:45

intimate discussion here on all in

01:48:47

podcasts

01:48:48

I don't know if I've got a huge shift in

01:48:52

opinion he's a very personable guy he

01:48:55

has a good command of the the subject

01:48:57

he's got good experience running a state

01:48:59

so those are good qualifying criteria

01:49:01

obviously this is a very challenging

01:49:03

race for him I'm not sure if he hits any

01:49:05

zingers that really helps accelerate him

01:49:07

past the momentum that Jose has and

01:49:10

obviously the lead that Trump has with

01:49:13

the you know Conservative Party Support

01:49:15

with DeSantis so it seems like it's

01:49:17

going to be a tough campaign and a tough

01:49:19

race for him and I'm not sure he brings

01:49:21

anything today that shows how he's going

01:49:23

to kind of get ahead of this problem so

01:49:25

that's the campaign let's talk about for

01:49:27

you

01:49:28

if you were to contrast him to other

01:49:30

Republican candidates DeSantis Halley

01:49:34

Vivek where does he fall for you

01:49:36

personally yeah I remain of the concern

01:49:39

that there's a giant meteor

01:49:41

hitting a fiscal meteor hitting the

01:49:43

United States okay and everyone's

01:49:45

talking about a lot of other stuff okay

01:49:47

and it's the don't look up documentary

01:49:49

to me okay and he's the most attuned to

01:49:52

that in your mind or Nikki he has a good

01:49:53

point of view I think his alignment

01:49:55

around keeping military spending and you

01:49:59

know this this discussion around

01:50:00

corruption it's it's such a

01:50:03

a micro problem relative to the macro

01:50:05

condition

01:50:07

again 31 of U.S debt coming up

01:50:10

for refinancing this year uh it's going

01:50:12

to be you know and we're already seeing

01:50:14

by the way this year interest expense on

01:50:16

the debt is greater than the military

01:50:18

spending if you had to pick uh two

01:50:21

candidates on the Republican party that

01:50:22

were most intriguing to you for your

01:50:24

vote which too would they be I'm going

01:50:26

to skip that question for now okay

01:50:28

chamoth I'll go to you post this to our

01:50:30

discussion he he I thought he was great

01:50:33

I'm curious how you thought were the

01:50:35

strong points in this discussion uh and

01:50:37

then

01:50:38

I guess we can talk about his campaign

01:50:40

as Freeburg just did but then we could

01:50:42

also talk about how he resonates with

01:50:44

you and in terms of getting your vote

01:50:46

maybe where he sits I don't think my

01:50:48

opinion has changed much before

01:50:51

or after I mean I think that he's a he's

01:50:54

a very personable Charming guy but I'm

01:50:57

not sure that he says anything that's

01:50:59

different from

01:51:01

The Establishment wing of the Republican

01:51:03

party and I think that the winning

01:51:05

candidate whether I agree with it or not

01:51:08

is irrelevant at this point but the

01:51:10

formula has been laid bare for everybody

01:51:12

to see and I think that you have to have

01:51:14

radical ideas

01:51:16

and so when you think about the people

01:51:17

that are getting the most attention on

01:51:20

both the Democratic and the Republican

01:51:22

side

01:51:23

but they're essentially pushing back on

01:51:25

is all of this Orthodoxy

01:51:29

and if he really wants to win he has to

01:51:32

embrace being unorthodox and heterodox

01:51:36

and he doesn't have enough heterodoxical

01:51:39

policies to cut through so he just

01:51:41

cannot win

01:51:43

as a practical matter so

01:51:45

if he Embraces those heterodoxies

01:51:48

Because he believes in them

01:51:49

he's he has a chance but if he doesn't

01:51:51

it's going to be Trump versus Vivek so

01:51:55

if uh it winds up being Biden

01:51:58

Vivek Trump

01:52:00

Christy Nikki in this sort of like final

01:52:04

you know race towards Finish Line which

01:52:06

two candidates do you find most

01:52:07

appealing right now not not saying

01:52:10

you'll vote for them but which two are

01:52:11

resonating with chamath polyhapatia most

01:52:15

I'm still pretty open-minded I haven't

01:52:17

decided I know who doesn't resonate with

01:52:18

me okay tell me is DeSantis okay so

01:52:21

DeSantis is off the table everybody else

01:52:22

is still yeah I mean and I was very

01:52:24

clear early on that his campaign was DOA

01:52:27

and I think that that's probably just

01:52:28

gonna he's going to have a

01:52:30

a withering

01:52:32

kind of embarrassing end to the campaign

01:52:34

unfortunately for him but I think the

01:52:37

the heterodoxical rhetoric is going to

01:52:39

get ramped up both by

01:52:41

RFK and by Vivek and I think it's going

01:52:45

to put a lot of pressure and by Trump

01:52:46

and I think it's going to put a lot of

01:52:48

pressure on Biden and it's going to put

01:52:50

a lot of pressure on the other

01:52:51

republican nominees uh to come through

01:52:53

the noise here it's an interesting point

01:52:54

to moth because if the chorus becomes

01:52:57

this heterodox

01:52:59

point of view it's it looks really bad

01:53:02

Biden is almost in this truly defensive

01:53:05

mode because then you have multiple

01:53:06

parties speaking similarly about the

01:53:08

establishment I think there's a very

01:53:10

good chance that Biden's son he's

01:53:12

indicted this week he's in jail by the

01:53:14

time the election comes around which I

01:53:18

think also speaks very poorly

01:53:20

to the risk that there is some clear

01:53:24

links of corruption that come out and I

01:53:28

think that that's going to put the

01:53:29

election under severe pressure

01:53:33

and I think you can you can bet that

01:53:35

every single Republican Mega donor is

01:53:40

going to come out of the woodwork to

01:53:41

fund the Super PAC that's going to blast

01:53:43

the airwaves all across the country with

01:53:45

that content so that's I think a

01:53:49

foregone conclusion if it looks like

01:53:51

there is fire where there looks right

01:53:53

now is smoke and if David Weiss hacks

01:53:56

this decisively and it moves the trial

01:53:59

quickly which I suspect it will this is

01:54:01

all bad news for Biden and so you know

01:54:05

you have that on that side the

01:54:06

Republicans have the red meat that they

01:54:08

need

01:54:09

the heterodoxy on both sides is what's

01:54:11

getting all the attention

01:54:12

so you know I think I think what Donald

01:54:15

Trump did in hindsight was really break

01:54:16

the glass on being able to say

01:54:19

the things you couldn't say and that

01:54:22

will now be the formula for candidates

01:54:24

to win yeah and just for folks who

01:54:27

haven't been watching the news

01:54:29

um justice department is believed to

01:54:31

indict Hunter on the gun charges this

01:54:33

month I think they're still

01:54:34

investigating

01:54:36

the potential corruption where there's

01:54:38

smoke maybe there's fire

01:54:40

and if it leads to Biden and so this

01:54:42

whole race could be totally flipped

01:54:43

upside down at any moment same with

01:54:45

Trump and his induction gun charges are

01:54:47

nothing charged just so everyone

01:54:49

understands what that is when he applied

01:54:51

to get a firearm you know you have to

01:54:53

take you have to check off these check

01:54:55

boxes on the form yeah and one of them

01:54:57

is I apparently that you don't have a

01:54:59

drug problem yeah and so he lied on that

01:55:03

form I guess

01:55:04

but that that's the kind of charge that

01:55:07

I I personally don't believe they should

01:55:09

be going after him for because I don't

01:55:10

think they would prosecute an ordinary

01:55:12

person for that yeah and in his defense

01:55:14

Hunter said I have no problem scoring

01:55:16

drugs so I don't have a drug problem I

01:55:17

can get them anytime I need them it's

01:55:19

one of these weird kind of almost again

01:55:21

like a paperwork charge and remember

01:55:23

that what the doj tried to do was a

01:55:27

settlement with Hunter Biden where he

01:55:29

would plead guilty on that same gun

01:55:31

charge because it's kind of a nothing

01:55:32

charge but then buried deep in that

01:55:35

settlement was a broad Immunity on all

01:55:37

the foreign lobbying he was doing the

01:55:40

Pharaoh act violations and then it came

01:55:42

out and the judge said wait a second

01:55:44

like that's too much like what are you

01:55:46

doing and they reject the judge rejected

01:55:48

the settlement so frankly I view the

01:55:51

charges by the doj on the gun charge as

01:55:54

a misdirection of what the real issue is

01:55:56

with Hunter Biden he was running around

01:55:57

the world collecting money

01:55:59

with being an unregistered foreign agent

01:56:02

foreign lobbyist yeah that's the Crux of

01:56:05

the issue is that's the corruption

01:56:09

but the point is that's what the doj

01:56:11

should be looking at not these laws

01:56:13

that's what they are looking at yes did

01:56:15

Hunter use drugs David I think I think

01:56:17

looking at the tax evasion tax fraud

01:56:19

charges that is their way of looking at

01:56:21

that so I think it's going to come out I

01:56:22

think at this point they're they're

01:56:24

looking at both everybody will have the

01:56:26

truth if if the bidens are truly not

01:56:29

guilty that will be clearly established

01:56:31

now in this process but if he was acting

01:56:34

as an unregistered agent of these

01:56:36

foreign governments that is also going

01:56:37

to come out and if there were links

01:56:39

between him and his father and

01:56:41

Communications that's also going to come

01:56:43

out I think that but he hasn't even been

01:56:44

indicted on that yet right yeah I

01:56:46

understand I think it takes time I think

01:56:49

they will thoughtfully put it together

01:56:50

but I'm not confident about it given

01:56:52

that they wanted to give him broad

01:56:54

Immunity on those charges I think no but

01:56:56

I think I think David Weiss is under

01:56:58

such a microscope right now idea that

01:57:00

she doesn't act conclusively here I

01:57:02

think would be a huge problem and then

01:57:04

the next president if it's Republican

01:57:05

will reopen it so whatever happens here

01:57:08

will need to be definitive and I think

01:57:09

the special prosecutor probably

01:57:11

understands that at this point yeah so

01:57:13

let's go back to your impressions before

01:57:15

we go down the Biden Biden Biden uh

01:57:17

Rabbit Hole here

01:57:18

what are your thoughts after two hours

01:57:20

with Chris Christie anything change in

01:57:22

your outlook on him and then I'm curious

01:57:24

are you still team DeSantis all the way

01:57:27

okay so on Christy I like talking to him

01:57:31

more than I thought I was going to

01:57:34

um I think he was easy to talk to I

01:57:36

think the two hours went by pretty

01:57:37

quickly I think he brought his energy

01:57:39

level down to the right place for a

01:57:43

podcast I mean it was a little different

01:57:44

than when he's very pugnacious on the

01:57:47

debate stage and can kind of grandstand

01:57:49

and he you know engaged in a discussion

01:57:51

with us so I thought that was positive

01:57:54

the only time his energy really changed

01:57:55

was basically in the last five minutes

01:57:57

when he went on to a full-on like Trump

01:58:00

diatribe and it was almost like you know

01:58:04

a little bit of TDS kicked in that being

01:58:06

said his position on Trump was a little

01:58:08

bit more nuanced than I was expecting

01:58:11

first of all he admitted the whole

01:58:12

Russia gate thing was total baloney

01:58:14

second he said that with respect to

01:58:16

these State charges the Alvin Bragg in

01:58:19

New York and the Fannie Willis and

01:58:21

Atlanta those charges should not have

01:58:22

been brought yeah I thought that was

01:58:23

pretty good I kind of agree with him on

01:58:25

those I I agree with his ass I thought

01:58:27

that was intellectually honest did you

01:58:28

feel intellectual honesty from him yeah

01:58:30

I think he really believes this yeah

01:58:32

third I took a couple of tries by

01:58:34

chamoth and then me to to get him to say

01:58:36

this but he said he would not put Trump

01:58:39

in jail he's too old for that and I

01:58:41

thought that was I I wasn't sure where

01:58:43

he was going to come out on that I

01:58:44

didn't know if he was going to say Trump

01:58:46

deserves a life sentence who would

01:58:48

pardon him if he was President he said

01:58:50

he said I wouldn't pardon him but I

01:58:51

commute his sentence he didn't have to

01:58:54

spend time in jail so I thought that was

01:58:56

new information and again a more nuanced

01:58:59

view than I was expecting on the

01:59:01

documents case he said that Trump ran

01:59:03

into the charges which frankly I agree

01:59:05

with I think yeah could have avoided

01:59:07

that easily however Christy said he did

01:59:09

it for eosyncratic reasons he loves this

01:59:11

box of mementos yeah he didn't really

01:59:14

address them there you and I have yeah

01:59:16

yeah and you know who else loves their

01:59:18

mementos I have I have a handful of kids

01:59:20

under the age of five who love blankets

01:59:22

and yes

01:59:24

pacifiers Teddy yeah I would just go a

01:59:28

little further and just say listen if he

01:59:29

did this for idiosyncratic reasons

01:59:31

rather than nefarious reasons like

01:59:33

selling State Secrets then I think you

01:59:35

apply the same standard of prosecution

01:59:37

as they did to petrayeus or to Biden

01:59:40

himself or the thing you keep missing is

01:59:43

that those people gave those back you

01:59:45

keep missing those acts I don't know why

01:59:46

you have that blind spot because he

01:59:48

basically said that Trump has an anxiety

01:59:50

complex and he su he sells suits with

01:59:52

that box of documents that's what he

01:59:54

said

01:59:59

Trump the same way as Sandy Berger I

02:00:02

mean come on those guys

02:00:06

moving on uh the last point was on the

02:00:10

Jack Smith charges where

02:00:13

he admitted that Jack Smith has to prove

02:00:16

Beyond a reasonable doubt that Trump

02:00:17

knew that his election denial argument

02:00:22

was false and I think he pretty much

02:00:24

admitted that that would be a very very

02:00:26

hard thing to prove but he said he

02:00:28

wanted to wait to see what evidence they

02:00:30

had to me that kind of begs the question

02:00:32

of why you bring that case in the first

02:00:34

place any event so that's on Trump I

02:00:36

think what I saw there was a little bit

02:00:38

of TDS but a more nuanced overall

02:00:40

perspective when he got into the details

02:00:42

on foreign policy

02:00:44

I think we had a lot of interesting

02:00:45

conversation there about the

02:00:48

mismanagement of the military-industrial

02:00:51

complex and I think shmoth had some

02:00:53

really interesting questions there that

02:00:55

then I followed up on and really you

02:00:57

couldn't get him to say anything other

02:00:59

than he wouldn't necessarily increase

02:01:02

the size of the defense budget until you

02:01:04

did the efficiency survey but he kind of

02:01:06

had to be pushed to even get there and

02:01:09

what I would just say is that on that

02:01:11

question on military spending combined

02:01:13

with the question of Ukraine he pretty

02:01:16

much has the standard establishment

02:01:18

Republican position which is the only

02:01:20

thing Biden has done wrong is not move

02:01:23

aggressively enough on Ukraine that you

02:01:25

know giving mixed messages not being

02:01:27

hawkish enough I'm sorry but Biden has

02:01:30

had the most hawkish policy on Ukraine

02:01:32

that any president's ever had and the

02:01:35

only reason there's been hand ringing

02:01:36

about giving them f-16s is because it

02:01:38

could start World War Three and I

02:01:40

personally want Biden thinking about

02:01:42

that you know so again I think think

02:01:44

this neocon Republican position that

02:01:47

involves Chris Christie and Haley and

02:01:50

Pence and Mitch McConnell you know

02:01:52

basically the whole Republican

02:01:53

establishment they basically believe

02:01:55

that Biden who says we need to support

02:01:57

Ukraine for as long as it takes as much

02:01:59

as it takes he's still not doing enough

02:02:01

I just don't fundamentally buy that

02:02:03

argument you still teams DeSantis here's

02:02:05

my view on it so look I I would support

02:02:07

DeSantis I also would support Vivek for

02:02:10

for me oh whoa whoa whoa this is new

02:02:11

information so you're saying you are now

02:02:14

equally open-minded to the vague and

02:02:17

DeSantis it's not equally minded but

02:02:18

look for me most

02:02:21

here's the way I divided I divide

02:02:23

Candace at this point into acceptable

02:02:24

versus unacceptable okay and for me the

02:02:28

number one issue is whether the

02:02:29

president the next president will seek

02:02:32

to de-escalate or end the Ukraine war or

02:02:34

they will seek to escalate it guys

02:02:37

Christie along with all these others by

02:02:39

saying that Biden has been too dovish on

02:02:41

Ukraine is effectively saying he wants

02:02:44

to do even more on Ukraine so we're not

02:02:46

going to take I'm not willing to live

02:02:49

for the next four years on the knife's

02:02:51

edge of World War III I don't want so

02:02:54

that's what you're doing to put well I

02:02:56

don't want the Sword of War Three camp

02:03:00

well no I think that the candidates who

02:03:02

said that they would either end or

02:03:04

de-escalate Ukraine or Vivek DeSantis

02:03:07

and Trump has said it they're the only

02:03:09

three oh and sorry Robert F Kennedy Jr

02:03:11

okay but you're not going to vote for

02:03:13

him so that puts you in Vivek well I

02:03:16

don't know I mean he might be my

02:03:17

favorite to be honest would you pick him

02:03:19

over Trump I would certainly take

02:03:20

Kennedy over Trump you would wow this is

02:03:22

incredible for sure breaking news folks

02:03:24

this is this is all incredible wow look

02:03:27

for me this is the Little Miss test

02:03:28

issue is are you going to escalate or

02:03:30

de-escalate the Ukraine war

02:03:32

and I think that these hawkish

02:03:35

Republican candidates pose an

02:03:37

unacceptable risk of war three what do

02:03:39

you think Jason yeah Jason what do you

02:03:40

think I thought he broke your heart

02:03:42

there in a couple of places no actually

02:03:44

um I don't expect all candidates to line

02:03:46

up with my belief system perfectly

02:03:49

obviously it's well spoken obviously

02:03:51

he's qualified

02:03:53

I'm looking for a moderate like Freeburg

02:03:55

I think the existential crisis of the

02:03:56

balance sheet is my top issue I voted

02:03:59

Republican about 25 and Democrats 75 I'm

02:04:03

literally a moderate and an independent

02:04:06

and

02:04:07

uh right now I really don't think Biden

02:04:09

can be president or Trump so that leaves

02:04:11

me with RFK on one side

02:04:13

and it leaves me with Nikki Halley and

02:04:16

um Christy on the other side and Nikki

02:04:18

Haley and Chrissy are really into

02:04:19

balancing the budget and so I'm I'm

02:04:22

leaning towards voting Republican if

02:04:24

those are the two candidates now the

02:04:26

thing that I think handicapping this

02:04:29

election is not being talked about all

02:04:31

that much because we have the Trump

02:04:33

Biden rematch taking while they are out

02:04:35

of the room is I don't know that Biden

02:04:37

makes it to the starting line nor do I

02:04:38

think Trump makes it to the starting

02:04:39

line and so that changes everything and

02:04:42

who knows what percentage chance that is

02:04:43

I don't think any of us can give it a

02:04:45

perfect

02:04:46

uh handicap but let's say that is the

02:04:48

case

02:04:49

um then I think it's you know there's

02:04:50

there's a lot of lanes open here and I

02:04:52

think the election will be once again

02:04:53

determined by moderates and I think

02:04:55

women who are still very much upset

02:04:58

about

02:04:59

the Roe v Wade issue and I think those

02:05:01

two things are going to play a

02:05:02

significant role and that's where I

02:05:03

think Nikki Halley and Chris Christie

02:05:05

believe it's a state's issue and they're

02:05:07

not into the national ban

02:05:09

for abortion I think moderates are not

02:05:11

into Biden I think they or I don't think

02:05:14

they're going to be into RFK I think

02:05:15

they're going to be into Nikki Haley and

02:05:17

I think Nikki Haley could happen and I

02:05:18

think Chris Christie would happen so I

02:05:19

hope we get Nikki Haley on here because

02:05:21

I don't know her enough but I would like

02:05:22

to have that to our discussion so I'm

02:05:24

leaning towards Haley Christie if they

02:05:27

make it all right this is Ben another

02:05:28

amazing episode of the all-in podcast we

02:05:31

went for over two hours enjoy the one

02:05:34

and a half times episode everybody

02:05:36

because next week is the all-in summit

02:05:38

and we're not going to tape next week so

02:05:39

you get a week off from the Pod while we

02:05:41

uh Bank

02:05:43

I think like 20 amazing amazing guests

02:05:47

from Ray dalio to Elon Musk to Mr Beast

02:05:51

I mean the list of people Gwyneth

02:05:53

Paltrow that free version has put

02:05:56

together is extraordinary

02:05:58

congratulations to freeberg on

02:06:00

a program even better than last year's

02:06:03

program is it unprecedented success here

02:06:05

so great great job Friedberg and the

02:06:08

team over at the production board

02:06:10

the parties might be fun too I got my

02:06:13

tux I'm ready to go we will see you all

02:06:16

in Los Angeles or some portion of you

02:06:18

about one percent of you in uh Los

02:06:21

Angeles next week sorry for the fomo

02:06:23

everybody but Freeburg will be releasing

02:06:24

the episodes on Twitter X and YouTube

02:06:28

are the exclusive uh locations so you're

02:06:30

not going to get in your podcast feeds

02:06:32

flooded with the 20 talks you gotta go

02:06:34

to x follow all in podcasts on x

02:06:38

and search all in podcasts on YouTube

02:06:41

you can subscribe and then there's a

02:06:42

bell there you put on the alert I think

02:06:44

you're going to drop them every day or

02:06:45

every two days Freeburg something in

02:06:47

that sort of pace so you got 20 days of

02:06:49

content coming at you coming at you for

02:06:51

the dictator himself the Sultan of

02:06:54

science David Friedberg chair person of

02:06:57

deal in Summit 2023 great job and Rain

02:07:01

Man the architect himself

02:07:03

with that incredible Gordon Gekko hair

02:07:05

wow looking great sex I am the

02:07:08

Undisputed world's greatest moderator

02:07:11

according to the YouTube comments and

02:07:13

we'll see you next week bye-bye

02:07:16

we'll let your winners ride

02:07:18

Rain Man

02:07:20

[Music]

02:07:23

we open source it to the fans and

02:07:26

they've just gone crazy

02:07:27

[Music]

02:07:29

I'm going

02:07:31

[Music]

02:07:32

to do it besties

02:07:35

[Music]

02:07:50

it's like this like sexual tension that

02:07:52

they just need to release somehow

02:07:58

[Music]

02:08:05

[Music]

02:08:09

I'm going all in

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Episode Highlights

Governor Christie on the Deficit
Christie emphasizes the importance of addressing the national deficit and spending cuts.
“Kicking the can down the road is not an option.”
@ 06m 04s
September 08, 2023
Biden's Influence in Ukraine
Biden's role in approving the new Ukrainian government shows his significant influence.
“Biden clearly has enormous influence over that country now.”
@ 20m 45s
September 08, 2023
The Mystery of Burner Accounts
The use of burner accounts raises questions about transparency and intent in communications.
“Burner accounts always raise my eyebrows.”
@ 24m 11s
September 08, 2023
Military Spending Concerns
Despite a massive military budget, the U.S. faces shortages in key ammunition.
“We're getting ripped off; the military-industrial complex is royally screwing the American taxpayer.”
@ 37m 14s
September 08, 2023
Military Spending Waste
Discussing the significant waste in the military budget, the speaker emphasizes the need for accountability.
“There's no doubt that when you see us spend the 877 billion, there's waste.”
@ 42m 10s
September 08, 2023
Fentanyl Crisis in San Francisco
The open-air drug market in San Francisco is spiraling out of control, with promises of reform unfulfilled.
“This is absolute chaos.”
@ 01h 02m 36s
September 08, 2023
Successful Criminal Justice Reform
New Jersey's bipartisan criminal justice reform has led to a significant drop in crime.
“We did it smartly and in a way that was balanced.”
@ 01h 10m 17s
September 08, 2023
Indictment of Donald Trump
A nuanced view on the indictments against Trump, suggesting some may be politically motivated.
“I wouldn't have indicted him on the documents case.”
@ 01h 18m 52s
September 08, 2023
Political Prosecution Debate
Discussion on whether Trump's legal challenges are politically motivated, with insights on the aggressive nature of the January 6th case.
“It's an aggressive prosecution.”
@ 01h 30m 02s
September 08, 2023
The Grift Debate
Discussion on the financial dealings of Jared Kushner and Hunter Biden during their time in office.
“The grift is deep.”
@ 01h 45m 23s
September 08, 2023
Engaging Conversation
The hosts reflect on their engaging two-hour discussion with Chris Christie.
“I think he was easy to talk to.”
@ 01h 57m 31s
September 08, 2023
The Ukraine War Debate
Candidates are divided on whether to escalate or de-escalate the Ukraine conflict.
“Are you going to escalate or de-escalate the Ukraine war?”
@ 02h 03m 28s
September 08, 2023

Episode Quotes

Key Moments

Fiscal Responsibility06:04
Leadership Philosophy10:33
Biden's Approval20:45
Fentanyl Crisis1:02:36
Federal Prosecution1:03:16
Beach Controversy1:25:30
Hunter Biden's Charges1:55:51
Christie's Perspective1:58:30

Words per Minute Over Time

Vibes Breakdown

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01:20:35

In conversation with President Trump

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January 20, 2025

01:44:38

Inauguration Interviews: Trump's Talent, Dem Rebrand & more w/ Whip Emmer, Reps Swalwell & Khanna

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02:10:17

In conversation with Vivek Ramaswamy

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August 30, 2024

02:11:44

In conversation with Reid Hoffman & Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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January 25, 2025

02:05:33

Trump's First Week: Inauguration Recap, Executive Actions, TikTok, Stargate + Sacks is Back!

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September 05, 2025

01:07:53

Senator Rand Paul: Tariffs, Debt, China, and a Warning for America

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September 20, 2023

39:14

All-In Summit: In conversation with Graham Allison

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November 19, 2022

01:47:51

E105: Tech culture wars: Elon vs. SBF, Sabotaging Republicans with Trump

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September 12, 2023

34:49

All-In Summit: Ro Khanna on China, political reform, major challenges facing the US and more

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October 14, 2022

01:29:53

E100: Reflecting on the first 100 shows, fan questions, nuclear threat, markets, Amazon & more

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02:01:47

In conversation with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

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November 17, 2023

01:56:19

In conversation with Dean Phillips