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welcome back to the Allin podcast the
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number one business technology and
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political podcast in the world I am your
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host Jay Cal Jason kakanis and with us
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today three of my besties you got David
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freeberg cackling over there he is your
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sultant of science previously known as
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the queen of quinoa but he sold the Quin
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Juan business made a killing in quinoa
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also with us back from Italy back from
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Italy shamal ptia he's at 67% button
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and uh he's not happy about it but the
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hair looks great you still got a little
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sea salt from the the yachting I think
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I'm going to try to keep my hair along
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let's see what happens did you bring any
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of the sea salt back with you from the
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Mediterranean put it in a little bottle
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to spray or no no but I do have Minal
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oil oh okay great and have you showered
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in the last week or is it still you got
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the Mediterranean glove every day I've
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showered since I've gotten back see
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that's the problem you were you don't
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you don't have the SE to use as a
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natural you know disinfectant anot
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exfoliant exfoliant also yeah look how
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many buttons he's got going I know it's
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just TR beginning I feel uncomfortable
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for your neck I mean it's like creeping
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all the way up your neck looks like a
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prisoner let your winners
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[Music]
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ride
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David we open source to the fans and
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they've just gone crazy with it Love
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Queen
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[Music]
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I walked here but I had it totally
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unbuttoned and I thought this is
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completely inappropriate for Meo Park in
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August so I buttoned two buttons back in
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business mode he's in business casual
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mode he went from casual to business
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okay and with us of course the Dark
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Knight himself yeah the Rainman David
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Sachs and we have a bestie guesty for
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you folks friend of my other pod this
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week in startups Reed Hoffman is here
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and uh you know him as a venture
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capitalist board member at Microsoft and
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you the co-founder or the founder of
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LinkedIn I don't know if you had a
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co-founder co-founder co-founder of
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LinkedIn now owned by
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Microsoft he's got his own podcast
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masters of scale and uh he he and David
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saxs work together at
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PayPal Reed give it welcome to the
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program and give us a little story what
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is your fondest memory or the most
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quirky memory David S and that all those
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weirdos I'm sorry not supposed to use
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the word weird anymore I get banned on
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all of those unique personalities at
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PayPal tell us about that moment in time
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and do you remember the first time you
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met David sex yeah I met um David uh
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because Peter had known him from
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Stanford and hired him in um and you
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know David uh very quickly because he
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you know uh has a has a strong learning
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curve as he plays these things kind of
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got the Instinct of what the game we
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were playing with PayPal was and it's
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part of the reason why why I think you
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know each of the execs have had you know
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kind of key contributions to making um
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you know kind of PayPal successful and
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and David's was this kind of like um
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maniacal focused on the kind of the the
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cycle of how the product worked on eBay
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um and like like there was just a whole
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bunch of stuff I learned from him it's
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part of how I track you know kind
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of you know people I respect is what do
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I learn from them and that was one of
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the things that I would say I learned
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from uh David at PayPal that's nice
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David tell us your first memory of
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meeting Reed Hoffman would you remember
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where you were do you remember the
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conversation and yeah yeah I think well
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we met through Peter you know and Reed I
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think Reed was on the board of was
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confinity back then and then joined
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full-time what were you like
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28 27 29 no I mean let's see um this
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would have been
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2000 I I guess it would have been 27
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when I first joined PayPal 27 28 I guess
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something like that yeah 99 so whatever
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that was yeah in any event I mean I'll
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just to return the compliment you know
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PayPal had all these existential issues
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where you had these larger entities
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trying to kill us Visa Mastercard eBay
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who else oh the let goes on City Bank
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yeah and uh Reed was was kind of our
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Emissary who kept all these dogs at Bay
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and managed to I guess be friends with
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them I guess to some degree even though
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they wanted to kill us and re was kind
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of in charge of making sure that these
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existential issues didn't blow up on us
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and they didn't so we got pretty lucky
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there it's it's the Will Rogers line
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it's politics is the art of saying nice
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doggy while you hunt for a stick tell us
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like a moment read that is incredibly
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memorable to you from that PayPal era
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you know some existential moment or one
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of the more difficult or funny moment
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moments late night moments that would be
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indicative of that era and whatever was
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in the water that Drew all that talent
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to one
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place well part of it is that I mean
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this is you know among the things I was
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learning from from Peter was that Peter
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and Max uh recruited just a tremendous
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focus on on uh like intense learning
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curves so you know it was one of the
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things that Peter later was like okay I
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guess you have to interview for being on
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sports teams and so forth because this
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teamwork thing does matter but like high
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performers and it was kind of like a
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like and that was part of the reason why
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there was such intense um you know kind
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of uh Innovation and capability um you
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know probably the most stunning memory I
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had at at at PayPal is we you know we're
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all young we're all first time we're
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we're kind of doing a startup that
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matters you know kind of uh making this
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stuff happen and we do this merger with
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XTO
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and and you know like pre the merger
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closing um you know Elon is is saying oh
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I got this CEO Bill Harris he's the best
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ever that's part of the reason why you
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should give so much percentage to the
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company deck.com and the merger You Know
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da d d d da and then after um the merger
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literally the first meeting I had with
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Elon is Bill Harris is a complete
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disaster we need to fire him right
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away like like before we get to the
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first board meeting we need him fired
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and I'm like uh Elon you need to talk to
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Peter about
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this well I mean my he is decisive
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that's for sure all right well let's get
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into we want you know we're going to go
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a little bit mullet here fredberg we're
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going to start with business and uh then
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maybe we had a we had a fun meeting
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about that topic at a place in paloalto
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that no longer exists called Antonio's
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Nut House yes exactly yes the legendary
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Antonio's n house yeah and when Bill
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eventually did meet his demise um at
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PayPal
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it was called The Nut House
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coup he got whacked at The Nut House
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where on the pool tables in the back you
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whacked him or in the boots in the front
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well it he wasn't whacked he was whacked
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at a board meeting not at the nut house
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but certain plans were formulated at the
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the back of Antonio's Nut House it's
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Antonio's Nut House is um yeah the most
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unhygienic bar in the Bay Area and then
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that's that's a pretty low Benchmark
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let's just leave it at that we'll start
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with some business here talk a little Ai
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and then since two of our panelists have
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a passion we'll do the party political
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parties at the end everybody knows re
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was a co-founder of inflection Ai and as
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a general partner at Greylock and uh one
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of the founding investors also in open
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AI there's a good story there I'm sure
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and we just got results Reed uh from
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Nvidia results were good they beat
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across the board stock was down after
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hours
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analysts said probably profit taking
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putting that aside we've never seen a
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chart like this in the history of uh
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business I would say data seter Revenue
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26.3 billion 87% of their revenue now
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you remember Nvidia started obviously
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with you know video games and and uh
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didn't have a major Data Center business
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that has exploded uh net income 16.6
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billion gross margin
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75% and uh here's your chart on a total
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basis nvidia's Revenue scale up is
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basically unlike anything we've seen But
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if you look their C quarter over quarter
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Revenue over the past couple years
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things are starting to cool off
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significantly after that giant boom R
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what's your take on nvidia's just
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incredible run here is it sustainable
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will they have competitors and do you
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think this buildout this massive
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buildout we're seeing from startups to
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sovereigns you know to Microsoft which
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you're on the board of Google Apple Etc
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is this sustainable and is this going to
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keep going well I got asked that
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question unsurprisingly by many public
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market investors over the year yeah and
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I said basically told them and say Hey
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look it's sustainable for two years
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which for you guys means
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forever yeah eight full quarters yes
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exactly so that that's Infinity right in
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terms of time um you know uh Nvidia has
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a very sharp you know kind of lead on
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the importance of the the chips for the
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training clusters um you know they're
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they're effective on inference um but I
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do think that as you kind of scale the
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demand there'll be a lot of inference
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chips uh coming in um you know I think
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chamath here invested in one of those oh
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um and um I think there's going to be a
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bunch of those kind of coming in and and
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and the bulk of the demand will be on
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the inference side and then Nvidia will
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have this challenge of do I try to keep
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my prices and my margin or do I do what
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what we like competition do I have to
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respond to the competitive market and
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that I think will will play out you know
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start playing out probably in a year two
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at the latest and then kind of go so I
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think it's not sustain the the the pure
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heat is not sustainable um but I think
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it's you know nvidia's got a very strong
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position and and um you know I
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definitely I would recommend people not
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be short on
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Nvidia yeah today so yeah there's growth
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left competition is coming and this is
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probably not the type of stock you would
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want to short at this moment in time
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yeah uh freeberg what are your thoughts
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on this buildout uh as well as the
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software buildout that's occurring and
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when do you think we're going to see
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some competition come into the space I
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don't know if this competition and the
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buildout I think we talked about this in
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the past I don't know if you guys saw
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these quotes this week or recently on we
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don't think about this build out in
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terms of Roi Gavin Baker in conversation
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on invest like the is that the name of
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podcast y I think referen some been with
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the leaders of these regarding the
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buildout is so important because
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ultimately if you create this quote
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digital God the you know return is how
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many trillions so it doesn't matter how
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many tens of billions you're spending
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each quarter right now you have to get
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there you have to make sure you don't
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miss the boat I guess Reed a question
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for you you're on the board of Microsoft
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still right like yes indeed as Microsoft
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SAA publicly talked about how they
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rationalize the investing principles
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associated with building out AI
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infrastructure in the cloud is it Roi
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based like hey in the next two years
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we're going to make this much additional
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incremental operating profit ory we got
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to get this thing working right right to
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be more precise is the investment driven
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by Roi or does everyone just say this is
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so strategic we just have to win it and
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we'll throw all the resources we have to
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at this well so um what well one board
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members speaking for Microsoft is you
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know is forbidden so I'm not speaking
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for Microsoft just speaking for me right
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um two all all cloud computing platform
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companies how are yeah what's your s on
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how they're thinking it's just one of
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the principles in the Microsoft thing is
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the company speaks for itself board
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members don't don't don't speak for them
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um but you know I think SAA is like the
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best public market CEO of our uh
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Generation Um I think he is
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stunning um in kind of blending com
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combination of strategic Insight with
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also kind of being you know kind of
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return on Capital you know sensible
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risk-taking Etc and so the actual thing
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between your guys questions in terms of
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because I can comment on how SAA thinks
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with this stuff is he's both thinking
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about like it's a platform change and
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you have to be there for the platform
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change for productivity for cloud Etc
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and okay let's rationalize the capital
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to when are we expecting Revenue how do
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we get Revenue sooner to to have that as
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a good productive cycle how do we um you
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know be not trying to you know just uh
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spend like drunken Sailors which is easy
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to do right but but to to be targeting
00:13:07
you know kind of business outcomes and
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it's part of the reason why you know
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like like like you know he's very
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focused on what are we doing with office
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what are we doing Cloud what are we
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doing with you know as opposed to like
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you you you rarely hear him talking
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about AGI or never digital Gods because
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it's kind of the question of I am I am
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focused on this in a business sense and
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I think that's that's kind of the way
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he's doing it but there is obviously a
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you know kind of a it's hard to predict
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the future when it's novel and unknown
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in platforms and it's part of the reason
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why you have all the hyperscalers now
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you know kind of fully engaged and
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intelligently engaged because you say
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well if even it's just a new platform by
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which you know kind of software
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everything with with with a computer
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unit in it whether it's a a phone or a
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speaker or a computer or anything else
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anything with a with a with a with a
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with a kind of a CPU or a GPU gets more
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intelligent like you can't miss out on
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that platform um and so that's that's I
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think the the thing that's motivating
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everybody but it's obviously you know
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how to do that smart is one of the
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things that uh you know everybody is I'd
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say obsessing about every
00:14:17
week what do you think about the open
00:14:20
source movement versus closed Source you
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were one of the original donators to
00:14:24
open aai you were originally on the
00:14:26
board and there's a couple of ways to go
00:14:28
with this question but I just want to
00:14:29
start with forget about the corporate
00:14:31
structure over there we'll get to that
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in a second but I want to talk
00:14:34
specifically about open source met is T
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met is obviously far behind open aai far
00:14:40
behind Google Microsoft so they went
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open source when you're behind you go
00:14:44
open source I guess is the idea here um
00:14:47
but they're making some big progress who
00:14:49
do you think is going to win this
00:14:50
ultimately an open- Source uh provider
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of llms or proprietary closed Source
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like open AI is and it's confounding to
00:15:00
say open AI is closed but closed
00:15:04
AI yeah um look from the very founding
00:15:07
open AI was never claiming it was going
00:15:09
to be open source was claiming it was
00:15:10
going to be one safety Open Access um
00:15:14
and not differential or controlling
00:15:16
access uh for that and I think that's
00:15:18
they stayed true to that principle which
00:15:20
is I think what the Genesis of the word
00:15:22
open is there and um look I think the
00:15:25
key thing is there's going to be winners
00:15:26
all over the place I think there's going
00:15:28
to be winners in the open source side um
00:15:31
and you know I don't I don't know if
00:15:32
llama's going to win from its open
00:15:34
source thing as much as it's just TR
00:15:35
saying hey we're training these models
00:15:36
so we're going to you know uh put them
00:15:38
out there because our closed system
00:15:40
closed loop you know doesn't require
00:15:42
selling for tokens and so forth but
00:15:44
there's also you know Mr all and other
00:15:46
folks who were doing competent models um
00:15:48
and then I think that the uh the but you
00:15:52
know there'll be wins in different ways
00:15:54
so it's not like I think like for
00:15:55
example you know I think there's going
00:15:57
to be a bunch of different startups
00:15:58
they're win whether it's coding agents
00:16:00
or you know kind of very specific
00:16:03
applications within medical or other
00:16:05
kinds of things and I think they will
00:16:07
you know generate big companies and I
00:16:09
think large companies like you know the
00:16:11
hyperscalers are going to are going to
00:16:13
succeed as well now in the pure model
00:16:15
competition the question is when do we
00:16:17
start seeing a a a a Asm toote to scale
00:16:22
and um and my guess is and you know kind
00:16:25
of the gbt landmarks is each order of
00:16:27
magnitude my guess guess is the soonest
00:16:30
will be
00:16:31
gpd6 um and it might not even it may
00:16:33
even be after that and that's part of
00:16:35
what the the bet that open Ai and
00:16:37
anthropic and the hyperscalers are all
00:16:39
making is that that that return to scale
00:16:42
and then that has a lot of Downstream
00:16:44
effects because even if you say we can
00:16:45
train smaller models uh to do effective
00:16:48
things part of what's going to be really
00:16:50
instrumental for training those smaller
00:16:51
models is the larger models so like even
00:16:55
if there's a bunch of smaller models
00:16:56
that are specifically capturing other
00:16:57
kinds of Market opportun ities which is
00:16:59
part of what I've been doing and
00:17:00
investing in AI since you know 2014
00:17:04
2015 um you know there's a there's a
00:17:07
there's going to be a a set of those
00:17:09
things that are all a whole bunch of
00:17:11
startup opportunities so I think it's
00:17:12
that the the a versus B is is is is a
00:17:15
good dramatic framing um but it's really
00:17:18
on which specific opportunities because
00:17:20
there's going to be wins and
00:17:21
opportunities across
00:17:22
them uh sorry just real quick do you
00:17:25
think there's one um llm or one found
00:17:29
AAL model read that effectively does
00:17:32
everything like a meta model that starts
00:17:34
to take most of the market or does
00:17:37
different versions of smaller models or
00:17:40
small agents that kind of network
00:17:42
together end up being the best solution
00:17:45
for specific applications and verticals
00:17:47
like how does this evolve over time like
00:17:49
everyone's got this concept that there's
00:17:51
a God model that does everything and
00:17:52
wins and whoever gets the god model wins
00:17:54
everything but the reality of software
00:17:58
and principles of biology would indicate
00:18:00
that you'll see like smaller Network
00:18:01
things that are better at doing things
00:18:03
than any one big thing and I'm to hear
00:18:06
your point of view on the philosophy of
00:18:08
that yeah I think the mistake that
00:18:09
people make is they think precisely it's
00:18:11
like the one model to rule them all it's
00:18:13
like sauron's ring and actually in fact
00:18:17
um already today like for example one of
00:18:20
the things that happens with all the
00:18:22
model providers at Microsoft and open
00:18:24
eye which I've seen is all sometimes Sub
00:18:26
in like GPD 3.5 as opposed to four to
00:18:29
see what the answers are because there's
00:18:30
a cost of compute even as you learn to
00:18:33
bring the cost of the compu of the
00:18:34
larger models down the larger models are
00:18:36
always going to be a lot more expensive
00:18:37
and by the way they're going to be more
00:18:39
expensive kind of probably Loosely on
00:18:42
the order of magnitude right so it's
00:18:44
like well it's 10x larger it's 10x more
00:18:45
expensive totally and and so when you're
00:18:47
trying to say hey I'm trying to make
00:18:49
business models work the language
00:18:51
translation right if I just want to do
00:18:52
language translation I don't need a
00:18:54
massive model I just need a model that's
00:18:55
really good at language translation
00:18:57
exactly and so think you're going to see
00:18:59
is is is networks of models and like
00:19:02
kind of traffic control and escalation
00:19:04
and all the rest and agents are not
00:19:06
going to be one model they're going to
00:19:07
be blends of models and that's one of
00:19:09
the reasons why you say well there's
00:19:11
actually in fact a lot of a lot of room
00:19:12
for startups because it's not like we
00:19:14
say well we we take gbd 7 and we just
00:19:16
serve it for everything it's like well
00:19:18
it's going to be super expensive and
00:19:19
there's a whole bunch of things about
00:19:21
like serving it more cheaply and like
00:19:23
for example one of the the the really
00:19:24
great technical papers that I love for
00:19:26
Microsoft is you know all you need is
00:19:27
textbooks it's like you can you can
00:19:29
train very specific models on kind of
00:19:32
like high quality data um along with by
00:19:36
the way the larger model helping train
00:19:37
it that all of a sudden you have a
00:19:39
functional smaller model and you know
00:19:41
the the question will be a blends of
00:19:43
these things so I think the the the the
00:19:45
multimodel model approach is I think
00:19:48
going to be you know quickly Universal
00:19:51
what is your take on I in this new era
00:19:54
we uh see open Ai and you're not on the
00:19:56
open AI board anymore right you're so
00:19:58
you're dependent of that even though you
00:20:00
made a big donation at some point
00:20:02
donation and investment I led the the
00:20:04
first commercial series first commercial
00:20:06
so you're an investor in it and you
00:20:07
donated to it but actually let's start
00:20:10
there what's up with that corporate
00:20:14
structure how do we make sense of that
00:20:17
something's a nonprofit you donated to
00:20:19
it and then you invested in it and
00:20:21
everybody's making money and selling and
00:20:22
secondary at 100 billion how does that
00:20:24
work in the world so um so it's it's a
00:20:29
51 C3 is the governor thing that's what
00:20:31
started and you know when you know kind
00:20:34
of Elon and Sam were starting this and
00:20:37
said look we need you know philanthropic
00:20:38
support and we're we're trying to make
00:20:40
sure that there's like open access to AI
00:20:43
which is going to be an instrumental
00:20:44
technology and we've got some great
00:20:45
technologists who want to come do this
00:20:47
we started as a as a you know kind of as
00:20:50
a 501c3 for doing it that that that
00:20:53
persists as far as I know till today
00:20:56
then you know one of Sam Alman 's you
00:20:59
know pieces of Genius was that he kind
00:21:01
of said look we're going to need scale
00:21:03
capital and I'm trying to go out to
00:21:05
raise and Commercial round was 600
00:21:07
million I'm trying to raise 600 million
00:21:09
philanthropy and is not working right so
00:21:12
so I have this idea which is the 501c3
00:21:15
which is doing this kind of research
00:21:16
mission of you know AGI for Humanity is
00:21:19
also producing commercial benefits and
00:21:22
we can create initially an LP which has
00:21:24
a a kind of a a a a a revenue right on
00:21:27
the commercial things that investors can
00:21:30
invest in and you know um you know Reed
00:21:33
it be really helpful if you led this um
00:21:36
because you know and I was like well but
00:21:38
you don't have a go to market plan you
00:21:39
don't have a product plan you don't have
00:21:41
a business plan like yeah yeah but you
00:21:45
know like we we need to show that we're
00:21:46
actually serious with the business I
00:21:48
said all right fine I will I will lead
00:21:49
it for my Foundation um you know because
00:21:52
even though none of these things we like
00:21:54
to see as investors were there but I was
00:21:56
like look okay I'll lead it as inv I'll
00:21:59
manage it as an investment but I'll do
00:22:00
as an investment for my Foundation um in
00:22:03
order to do this and um and what you
00:22:06
know you know kind of that was kind of
00:22:08
as we were beginning to get in a you
00:22:10
know like kind of we we hadn't seen
00:22:13
anything they were still doing DOTA and
00:22:15
and robot hands and bunch of those so
00:22:16
it's like we're betting on the scale
00:22:18
thesis of generating something magical
00:22:20
and so we hadn't seen gbd3 yet um and of
00:22:23
course once that started coming then it
00:22:25
was like well we need a bunch more
00:22:26
Capital let's do a strategic you know
00:22:28
you know um you know connection and
00:22:31
let's talk to all the hyperscalers and
00:22:32
let's work out a deal by which one of
00:22:34
them invest in us and and and then you
00:22:36
know the the Microsoft openi deal came
00:22:38
together with you know converting the lp
00:22:42
into a subsidiary of the nonprofit you
00:22:45
know kind of saying look um there's all
00:22:47
kinds of benefits that both open Ai and
00:22:49
Microsoft can get from a business deal
00:22:51
um and so that's that's that that's
00:22:53
what's led to you know the structure um
00:22:56
you know that I was familiar with before
00:22:58
the board do you what did you think of
00:23:01
elon's first lawsuit and then he dropped
00:23:04
it and then he refiled where where do
00:23:06
you think he's coming
00:23:08
from well
00:23:11
um what what is the uh you know I'm not
00:23:15
very charitable about those lawsuits um
00:23:18
you know I would like to be because you
00:23:19
know elon's one of the entrepreneurial
00:23:21
Heroes of our time and generation but I
00:23:25
think it's the I think it's you know
00:23:27
frankly I think probably the most thing
00:23:28
to say is sour grapes um because you
00:23:32
know for example I know Sam offered him
00:23:34
as much of the investment round as he
00:23:36
wanted right like he could have done the
00:23:38
whole thing he could have let it you
00:23:40
know it was kind of like hey look we
00:23:41
still love you we still and like and he
00:23:43
was like no it's not a company that I
00:23:44
control it's going to fail so I'm not
00:23:46
interested in investing and I was like
00:23:48
okay right and so now you're getting
00:23:50
these lawsuits that are like you know um
00:23:53
like I was misled it was like you were
00:23:56
offered everything at every opportunity
00:23:58
other than converting open AI into a
00:24:00
company that you you completely owned
00:24:02
and so um you know I think it's without
00:24:06
without basis without Merit but why do
00:24:08
you think he would have dropped it and
00:24:09
then refiled where do you think that
00:24:11
comes from is was is there new
00:24:13
information do you think or I think it
00:24:14
was a jurisdiction issue
00:24:16
Jamal oh that makes sense I got fact
00:24:19
that but Reed I mean Elon put in the
00:24:20
first what $44 million and he doesn't
00:24:22
have any
00:24:23
shares yeah I by the way put in 10
00:24:26
million at the same time and I don't
00:24:27
have any shares from those 10 million
00:24:30
but do you think that he kind of got
00:24:31
screwed because he doesn't have any
00:24:32
shares I mean at the time he put in the
00:24:34
44 million it was never going to be a
00:24:36
for-profit now it's a for-profit a lot
00:24:38
of people are profiting you know
00:24:41
assuming the paper Mark ends up being
00:24:43
realized so he doesn't own anything I
00:24:46
mean if you the seed investor and put up
00:24:48
44 million and something and then
00:24:50
everyone's making money and you don't
00:24:51
have any shares forget about the legal
00:24:53
technicalities wouldn't you have a
00:24:55
feeling of being
00:24:56
screwed well I look I can understand the
00:24:59
emotion of that but like it's not like
00:25:00
elon's short of money right and so if
00:25:03
you go look I'd like to have shares like
00:25:05
I did invest in the other thing I didn't
00:25:07
get any shares for the 10 million that I
00:25:09
put in and by the way it's not just
00:25:10
legal technicalities it's actually
00:25:12
really important that you're not doing
00:25:14
private enrichment off philanthropic
00:25:15
donations and so you know it's it's but
00:25:19
isn't that what's
00:25:20
happened um no from a Viewpoint of
00:25:25
they're held separate right um and so
00:25:29
you know and the 501c3 continues to to
00:25:32
control the um you know kind of control
00:25:36
the kind of the the the the mission and
00:25:38
Destiny and so forth and so the question
00:25:40
are its mission is still is still
00:25:42
guiding things and you're essentially
00:25:43
investing in that mission and you
00:25:45
recorded you recruited people you know
00:25:47
on that mission and so um you know I
00:25:50
think that the you know um you know I
00:25:53
think like I said sour
00:25:55
grapes uh okay so let's get into some
00:25:58
political stuff first I want to uh get
00:26:01
the IP question then I want to talk
00:26:03
about lenina con so how do you think
00:26:05
about IP in this you know briefly in
00:26:07
this new world open Ai and New York
00:26:10
Times can't come to terms New York Times
00:26:12
caught them red-handed cookie jar
00:26:13
according to their lawsuit having
00:26:16
indexed a ton of their content it's
00:26:17
pretty crystal clear that their
00:26:19
content's behind a pay wall and that's
00:26:20
how they make money I also subscribe to
00:26:23
chat GPT I give them 20 bucks a month
00:26:25
maybe 30 bucks a month for every
00:26:26
employee in my firm and and I get New
00:26:29
York Times content from there all the
00:26:31
time I will ask it what does the wire
00:26:33
cutter think is the best choice in chat
00:26:34
GPT I get that and then I get the answer
00:26:37
and I don't need my New York Times
00:26:38
subscription I don't visit the New York
00:26:39
Times anymore um feels pretty clearcut
00:26:43
to me but how do you think about IP
00:26:45
should uh an llm be able to ingest
00:26:48
whatever they please or should they be
00:26:50
required to get permission in advance
00:26:52
and pay a royalty to content creators
00:26:55
Reed
00:26:56
Hoffman huh well as a content creator
00:26:59
too look I
00:27:01
think I think that it tends to be a
00:27:04
little bit of
00:27:05
a look we do want content creators to
00:27:08
benefit economically from the work it's
00:27:10
part of the reason why we have copyright
00:27:11
it's part of the reason why we have
00:27:12
payrolls you know other kinds of things
00:27:14
that I think are are very important and
00:27:16
I think it's it's a complicated thing
00:27:18
that needs to be sorted out now that
00:27:19
being said I think we also want to say
00:27:22
that we can train these models like you
00:27:24
know like training is like reading and
00:27:26
like reading things is you know like
00:27:29
when something's available to be read
00:27:31
and you've engage in the right economic
00:27:32
thing for reading it I think that's a
00:27:34
kind of a reasonable fair use thing now
00:27:36
maybe we update the terms of service
00:27:38
maybe we update you know copyright law
00:27:39
or other things to say okay that now
00:27:41
changes you know I think we don't want
00:27:43
to forbid changes in the future you know
00:27:46
um this is like one of the problems we
00:27:48
get with it blocks Innovation when we do
00:27:50
that it blocks Innovation and you know
00:27:52
kind of Hollywood it blocks Innovation
00:27:53
and music it blocks Innovation so you
00:27:55
want to allow some new chain you know
00:27:59
changing landscape and I think this is a
00:28:00
changing landscape that arguably is
00:28:02
reading so I think that like both of
00:28:04
those things are true in terms of what
00:28:06
do we what do we want to sort through I
00:28:09
think that one of the reasons why this
00:28:11
is kind of like you know over like when
00:28:13
I give advice to you know various news
00:28:15
organizations and so say look don't try
00:28:17
to hold out for money on the training
00:28:19
side of things because you know we're
00:28:22
going to create synthetic data we're
00:28:23
going to do all kinds of other things
00:28:24
that are going to mean that no one's
00:28:26
particular data is really going to
00:28:28
matter what you should be is on
00:28:30
freshness on brand on other things and
00:28:33
we should work out ongoing sustaining
00:28:35
economic Arrangements like that that
00:28:36
would be my two cents you know
00:28:39
suggestion for it and I do think we want
00:28:40
to design an ecosystem that includes
00:28:43
that and you know when I was involved in
00:28:44
those Co conversations at open AI they
00:28:47
they agreed with that Microsoft
00:28:48
certainly agrees with that in terms of
00:28:50
you know how do we make sure that
00:28:51
economics are fairly apportioned and so
00:28:53
forth for you know what we're doing for
00:28:56
you know this phase of you know and
00:28:58
ongoing but like you know there's a
00:29:00
current Tech new technological wave
00:29:02
that's coming and how do you do that so
00:29:04
you know that's a messy answer but
00:29:05
unfortunately it's a messy subject it
00:29:07
it's pretty messy subject yeah before we
00:29:09
move to politics I just wanted to
00:29:11
actually ask you about inflection so is
00:29:14
it still running yeah and so what
00:29:17
basically happened there was like some
00:29:19
transfer payment from Microsoft and a
00:29:21
couple of the people like and then it
00:29:23
seems like whatever that deal was a
00:29:25
little bit seems to have been copied by
00:29:27
Google when they did this character AI
00:29:29
thing so just trying to get a sense from
00:29:30
you are these deals to structurally
00:29:33
avoid FDC scrutiny in terms of the
00:29:35
building blocks of it or how how did you
00:29:37
think about it and what is the what is
00:29:40
the pattern and the trend on these
00:29:42
things well the thing I think this
00:29:44
happened was you know very early days
00:29:46
you had things like you know we're doing
00:29:48
an agent and if Pi had launched before J
00:29:50
gbt it'd probably be in a different
00:29:52
circumstance but like chat gbt got the
00:29:55
oh my God high is the inflection AI the
00:29:58
inflation agent yeah and so so by the
00:30:00
time that Pi we got the the the trend
00:30:03
right and the and the interest of the
00:30:05
market right but we got the timing you
00:30:07
know too late happens with startups so
00:30:10
it's like okay we need to Pivot we need
00:30:11
to Pivot from a b Toc model to a B2B and
00:30:14
we have a unique model but let's sell
00:30:16
that to other people who already have
00:30:17
audiences because we're not going to be
00:30:18
able to easily grow our audience and
00:30:20
then you know once we had that as a
00:30:21
conversation there were employees are
00:30:23
like well we want to do the direct agent
00:30:24
thing and that's what we want to do and
00:30:26
maybe we'll go somewhere in order to do
00:30:27
that and we're like okay how do we fund
00:30:29
this and how do we make that work and
00:30:30
how do we make it work for investors and
00:30:32
we said hey there's a deal structure
00:30:33
that could work which is you know with a
00:30:36
you know kind of outside party you can
00:30:38
get paid enough in a non-exclusive IP
00:30:40
license and an ability to selectively
00:30:43
hire folks and then you can dividend
00:30:45
some of that out to investors so
00:30:47
investors you know get back a you know
00:30:49
kind of a 1x um and then kind of a a an
00:30:52
ongoing position so you know as
00:30:54
investors it's great to have a kind of
00:30:56
optionality on its B2B business
00:30:58
um in order to play that out and this is
00:31:00
a structure that works for everybody in
00:31:02
this pivot to be to be and that's
00:31:04
essentially the the the structure that
00:31:06
we did I see great pivot chth into Lena
00:31:10
Khan I think one of the things that is
00:31:13
quite Paradox paradoxical about your
00:31:16
relationship with David saak is you both
00:31:17
agree on something in politics which is
00:31:19
Lena Khan and her Concepts around future
00:31:23
competition and maybe how she's running
00:31:27
uh this issue for the United States is
00:31:29
leading to basically a freeze on the
00:31:32
market we're seeing weird deal
00:31:34
structures like some of the ones we're
00:31:35
talking about here that could have just
00:31:37
been
00:31:38
Acquisitions and I'm curious your
00:31:41
thoughts on what she you know this sort
00:31:44
of breakup of Google now we're seeing
00:31:47
that emerge at the same time that
00:31:50
they're facing the biggest existential
00:31:52
crisis of their career which is language
00:31:54
models competing with them and me I
00:31:56
would say half of my Google Searchers
00:31:58
have already moved to you know uh you
00:32:01
know chat GPT like services so what's
00:32:04
your take on Lena Khan's approach to m&a
00:32:07
and what impact if it's continued and
00:32:10
sustained will that have on Capital
00:32:12
allocation because I I don't know what
00:32:14
happened to the single and double m&a
00:32:16
Market but it seems to be completely
00:32:18
gone everything from Adobe and figma to
00:32:22
other uh mergers that could be happening
00:32:24
are essentially Frozen so what's your
00:32:26
take
00:32:28
so it was funny because I kind of made
00:32:30
an off-the-cuff you know kind of remark
00:32:32
about Lena Khan which turned into a
00:32:33
whole news cycle I I saw you on CNN
00:32:36
where they were like are you telling
00:32:38
Kamala and Biden what they have to do
00:32:40
and I'm like no because I don't believe
00:32:42
in that kind of Corruption of of of
00:32:44
Politics the only way she's gonna learn
00:32:46
about it is either she asked me or she
00:32:47
watched this television show um and um
00:32:51
and so so she's done a good job on the
00:32:54
price cartel she did a good job on the
00:32:55
anti competes both of which I think are
00:32:56
very very good for you know competitive
00:32:58
markets the problem is I think she has a
00:33:00
misunderstanding of these uh large tech
00:33:03
companies and um for example on the m&a
00:33:06
thing you know her theory is you got to
00:33:09
prevent the aggregation of power so you
00:33:10
got to you got to fight every
00:33:12
acquisition of note and the problem of
00:33:15
course is that actually quells venture
00:33:17
capital investment because it's like
00:33:18
okay um part of the the returns is if
00:33:22
I'm going to invest in something that
00:33:24
might be competing with you know one or
00:33:27
more of the large tech companies I need
00:33:29
to have acquisition exits as part of
00:33:32
being able to to fund enough Capital to
00:33:34
really make that acquisition you know
00:33:36
that that that that investment possibly
00:33:38
work because if it doesn't work I want
00:33:39
to be able to at least return recover my
00:33:41
Capital by an investment so the right
00:33:43
way to look at it is is there
00:33:45
competition amongst the top tech
00:33:47
companies because you know if one of
00:33:48
them is like squashing all the other
00:33:50
ones that's a problem if we're if we're
00:33:53
five large tech companies heading to
00:33:54
three then I'm much more sympathetic to
00:33:56
our point of view but we're actually
00:33:57
five heading to 10 right or five to
00:34:00
seven heading to 12 because like Nvidia
00:34:02
is now in the mix and and others I think
00:34:04
coming Mi is you now over 500 billion
00:34:07
yeah so yes and so you have this ability
00:34:10
so the thing is is they're competing on
00:34:12
the Acquisitions just like they're
00:34:13
competing in the Mar in the marketplace
00:34:15
and if you're trying to quell the whole
00:34:17
thing because your theory is like like
00:34:20
they should just you know the startup
00:34:21
should just be able to grow up to
00:34:22
compete that actually means that those
00:34:24
will never get the capital that they
00:34:26
need in order to do that which means
00:34:28
you're actually having the opposite of
00:34:30
your intent right what you're doing is
00:34:32
you're actually in fact making there be
00:34:34
less competition because you know
00:34:36
capitalists can't say if I'm going to
00:34:38
put a 100 million 500 million a billion
00:34:40
dollars into this company I at least
00:34:42
have a chance of getting my Capital back
00:34:44
or I can possibly create a competitor
00:34:46
and that's that's the reason I was
00:34:48
speaking out against it as an expert um
00:34:51
was like interesting you I saw you I
00:34:53
think it was a jake taper Tapper who uh
00:34:56
you kind of grilled I thought you did an
00:34:58
exceptional job of just saying listen I
00:34:59
made a donation this is how I feel about
00:35:01
it but obviously she's going to do what
00:35:03
she wants to do and and that's just how
00:35:06
politics works so uh I thought that was
00:35:08
actually pretty well done and I actually
00:35:09
appreciate you fighting for more m&a
00:35:11
because it would be great for the
00:35:13
industry Sak you wna you want to throw
00:35:16
up a political topic here or you want me
00:35:17
to no just just to stick on Lena Khan
00:35:20
for a second so I I agree that her
00:35:22
approach has been uh overly Broad and
00:35:25
has had a chilling effect on m&a and so
00:35:28
Jal like you said we've lost those base
00:35:30
hit Acquisitions that I think are
00:35:33
important to the Venture Capital Market
00:35:34
that help new stars get funded I mean if
00:35:37
the Returns on risk Capital go down
00:35:39
there's going to be less of it that
00:35:41
me'll be less be less inovation yeah so
00:35:44
I agree with Reed on that the area where
00:35:45
I'm not sure we agree is and and where I
00:35:48
do agree with Lena Khan is I do think
00:35:49
the big tech companies have too much
00:35:51
power I do think that they are
00:35:54
monopolies or have monopolies and I do
00:35:56
think they need to be controlled I just
00:35:58
think that you know I wouldn't prevent
00:36:00
them from doing any m&a whatsoever I'm
00:36:02
curious if Reed like agrees with that
00:36:05
that the big tech companies have too
00:36:06
much power or agrees with Lena Khan on
00:36:09
that and I guess specifically do you
00:36:11
think any big tech company should be
00:36:12
broken up if so which ones I mean I I
00:36:15
would actually entertain that idea of of
00:36:18
of deong glomera or breaking up some of
00:36:20
these big tech companies do you do you
00:36:21
think do you agree that big Tech has too
00:36:23
much power or
00:36:24
not um I think it's
00:36:28
TBD um but the reason I'd say look take
00:36:31
the opposite point of view we would say
00:36:33
no uh the thesis for no is that they are
00:36:38
very strong American comp companies that
00:36:40
get you know in the most cases over half
00:36:43
the revenue from
00:36:45
overseas they create uh technology
00:36:48
platforms that beneficially
00:36:50
differentiate the
00:36:51
US um versus you know many other uh
00:36:55
countries in kind of global
00:36:56
circumstances like the inter and other
00:36:58
kinds of things um I think that they are
00:37:00
competing ferociously with each other I
00:37:02
mean uh you know Jason just mentioned
00:37:05
that you know it's kind of like look
00:37:06
we've already got like chat GPT
00:37:08
competing with Google search and other
00:37:10
kinds of things and I think it's
00:37:12
competitive pressure right this is I
00:37:13
think what capitalism is about is
00:37:15
competitive pressure that essentially
00:37:17
creates the thing and that's the reason
00:37:18
why like if it's if if we were shrinking
00:37:21
like it was Google Uber Alis or I
00:37:23
actually frankly think that the you know
00:37:25
Everyone likes to talk about you know
00:37:27
Google you like I think the the prime
00:37:29
candidate is likely to be and I'm
00:37:31
speaking as an individual and as a
00:37:32
venture capitalist here is apple with
00:37:34
the app store right okay so wait so so
00:37:37
that brings up an interesting point one
00:37:38
of the things we've talked about in this
00:37:39
pod is that we shouldn't shut down m&a
00:37:41
but the the uh FTC should limit
00:37:45
anti-competitive tactics by these big
00:37:48
tech companies yep Apple really good
00:37:51
example because they drive everything
00:37:53
through the App Store you're not allowed
00:37:54
to do side loading they want to take
00:37:57
what is it 30% piece of any sales you're
00:38:01
not even allowed to have a link inside
00:38:02
an application to drive except to the
00:38:05
website yeah yeah Europe up now you can
00:38:09
would you at least want to crack down on
00:38:11
those anti-competitive tactics yeah no
00:38:13
for sure and look especially when is you
00:38:15
know we all know it's nonsense it's like
00:38:17
look you could just give the consumers
00:38:19
the option to to to allow side loading
00:38:22
you could just say it's technically very
00:38:24
simple to do and you could say look uh
00:38:27
we we don't want you to Sid load because
00:38:29
we view it to be Safety and Security but
00:38:32
we're giving you the option right fine
00:38:36
give people the option right Reed were
00:38:39
you surprised that then the first Target
00:38:41
where there was like some successful
00:38:43
antitrust push back was against Google
00:38:45
versus Apple and then second do you
00:38:47
think that there's a chance like a
00:38:50
meaningful chance that the government
00:38:52
tries to break Google up or do you think
00:38:54
it looks something maybe more similar to
00:38:57
what happened to
00:38:58
Microsoft so I think in mandating
00:39:02
breakups you know like I think is a um
00:39:06
look I think we should operate through
00:39:07
competitive networks and competitive
00:39:09
ecosystems I think it's part of what
00:39:10
smart about capitalism and I think
00:39:12
mandating breakups is only when
00:39:13
essentially capitalism is failing uh on
00:39:16
specific things you want to do the the
00:39:18
least the least you can to get back to
00:39:22
competitive networks in terms of how
00:39:23
you're operating and so you know when
00:39:25
you say hey look I iOS has this kind of
00:39:28
Monopoly and you say there's no side
00:39:29
loading you have to use app store you
00:39:30
have to use the payment mechanism you
00:39:32
know etc etc it's like well that quells
00:39:34
a ton of startup Innovation we all know
00:39:36
this as investors because we look at
00:39:38
anyone who's perspectively doing a
00:39:40
business like this and say no chance
00:39:41
it's you know you're you're not going to
00:39:43
succeed and so so then you say well
00:39:46
what's the least thing that we can do
00:39:48
right and you know a classic antitrust
00:39:50
like well let's break off the App Store
00:39:52
from Apple as well right unclear that
00:39:55
that would really fully work you know
00:39:57
that's like socialism mandating how the
00:39:59
thing should work let's try to get it so
00:40:01
that we allow competition uh to
00:40:03
determine these things and like for
00:40:04
example saying hey like you have to
00:40:07
allow consumers the option of side loing
00:40:09
you have to allow consumers the option
00:40:11
of installing an alternative app store
00:40:13
right like that kind of stuff I think
00:40:15
you know what's the minimal stuff I
00:40:16
think that's the kind of intervention we
00:40:18
want to have because I think there's all
00:40:20
kinds of benefits that come from why but
00:40:22
why do you think that the the case
00:40:24
against Apple has made less progress
00:40:26
than the case against Google
00:40:28
uh I think it's kind of it's less
00:40:30
politically easy right like it's kind of
00:40:32
like everybody loves their iOS phone and
00:40:35
you know there's there's there's less of
00:40:37
a blue and red you know kind of combo
00:40:41
tackle um where you know the the blue Fe
00:40:44
people are like hate big companies less
00:40:48
offensive basically you're saying yeah
00:40:49
yes more stylish they're they're
00:40:51
prettier I I kind of like your approach
00:40:54
though with the app store if you were to
00:40:55
think of least harm to the ecosystem
00:40:59
epic games has their own App Store for
00:41:00
games they charge 88% they give they
00:41:03
give I'm sorry they give developers 88%
00:41:05
they only take 12 and forcing Apple to
00:41:09
allow you know a startup to do an app
00:41:11
store would solve the entire problem and
00:41:14
it seems like that's where it's going to
00:41:15
go and all five of us would invest
00:41:17
instantly in an App Store that would say
00:41:20
0% take rate and all Advertising based
00:41:23
what a great idea that would be yeah GRE
00:41:26
I have a question
00:41:28
a few weeks ago you said something to
00:41:31
the effect very publicly that you had
00:41:32
had a one-h hour or multi-hour lunch
00:41:34
with Biden and he just seemed like super
00:41:37
on his game and then he was kind of
00:41:41
dumped was that just a moment in time
00:41:44
where he was really great with you or
00:41:47
how do you reconcile that with Pelosi
00:41:50
and all of these other folks and what
00:41:51
happened to
00:41:53
Biden well like most of us um I was
00:41:57
pretty dismayed by the debate
00:41:59
performance um because when I talk to
00:42:02
him like detailed thoughtful analysis
00:42:05
with no notes on Gaza questions about AI
00:42:08
you know and what kinds of things you
00:42:10
know what did I think about what the
00:42:11
progress you know the thing they were
00:42:13
doing with the volunteer commitments the
00:42:15
executive order and you know what kinds
00:42:16
of things should happen in the future
00:42:18
and all that kind of stuff being on the
00:42:19
game a little slower right than than you
00:42:22
know a a 50-year-old would be but but
00:42:25
you know like cogent and totally worth
00:42:28
and then you kind of uh looked at the
00:42:30
debate thing oh my gosh this is this is
00:42:33
this is a disaster um and so um it was
00:42:38
like look is the debate a one-off thing
00:42:39
is it did you were you ill you know like
00:42:42
trying to reconcile the two and you know
00:42:44
spent a little bit of time trying to
00:42:45
figure that out uh to to what was going
00:42:48
on because it was it was the first time
00:42:50
I'd seen something like that and you
00:42:53
know um you know I don't you know I'm
00:42:56
not enough of a DC Insider to know
00:42:59
exactly what the set of conclusions were
00:43:01
other than I you know I plotted you know
00:43:03
Biden for having the kind of Integrity
00:43:05
go look I'm maybe I'm Ill maybe I'm old
00:43:07
maybe I'm slower but you know the it's
00:43:10
about the country more than it's about
00:43:11
me because I'm you know not um you know
00:43:14
it's it's it's important to be about the
00:43:16
country not about yourself I'll I'll
00:43:18
step aside and ultimately his decision
00:43:20
there's nothing that anyone could force
00:43:21
Pelosi couldn't force it anyone else
00:43:23
it's ultimately his decision he came to
00:43:24
that decision so um you know
00:43:27
do you think that they should have run
00:43:29
an Open Primary after that and would
00:43:32
kamla have won an Open
00:43:34
Primary well it's hard to know I mean I
00:43:37
think they were definitely leaning
00:43:38
towards an Open Primary and then all the
00:43:39
people who would be the most natural
00:43:41
contenders all endorsed Kamala so um and
00:43:44
by the way you say what kind of
00:43:45
democratic process it was like well
00:43:47
there was a democratic process that
00:43:48
picked the Biden Harris ticket which
00:43:49
turned into the Harris Walt's ticket and
00:43:51
so that's not anti-democratic but I
00:43:54
think if you look at the sequence of
00:43:55
events it was kind of like well you know
00:43:57
we're we're going to sort out you know
00:43:59
what we're going to do and then you know
00:44:01
all of the key folks you know Shapiro
00:44:04
and and Whitmer and every else all
00:44:06
endorsed K I was like okay let's just
00:44:08
let's get back to you know kind of the
00:44:11
the choice of two candidates and so I
00:44:13
you know do you feel the voters felt
00:44:16
Reed do you think the voters felt left
00:44:18
out um the Democratic um
00:44:23
voters well I mean from Posta seems not
00:44:26
right with the level of kind of energy
00:44:28
and all the rest it seems that that that
00:44:31
um um that the uh that you know like the
00:44:37
with the pure polling and kind of level
00:44:38
energy and kind of what's going on
00:44:40
they're happy with what they got yeah
00:44:42
they're happy with what they got I would
00:44:43
have liked to have that speedrun do you
00:44:44
think it sets a bad
00:44:46
precedent that there were these back
00:44:49
room conversations
00:44:51
obviously the staff of Whitmer Moore
00:44:55
Shapiro their office speaks with
00:44:57
Democratic party leadership speak with
00:44:59
big donors and there was effectively a
00:45:01
coalescing that took place over a period
00:45:03
of time that said we should all stand
00:45:05
behind and endorse one person instead of
00:45:07
infighting and creating a split in the
00:45:09
party and does that not set a bad
00:45:12
precedent that there is a small group of
00:45:14
people in either party that in a primary
00:45:17
process effectively get to nominate
00:45:19
their candidate get their candidate to
00:45:21
become the nominee and therefore there's
00:45:23
only two people for the country to
00:45:24
choose from and as we have seen recently
00:45:27
with RFK Jr and the lawsuits against him
00:45:29
in being on the ballot in different
00:45:31
states it makes it very difficult maybe
00:45:33
for the people to have their choice and
00:45:36
is that a bad way for democracy to work
00:45:38
and I just love your philosophical view
00:45:39
on this on like what's the best way for
00:45:41
democracy in the United States to
00:45:43
work
00:45:45
so for the president for the president
00:45:47
yes we do live in a republic all right
00:45:49
and there there is various like you know
00:45:52
some people have much more influence
00:45:53
than others um whether it's media
00:45:55
platforms whether whether it's um you
00:45:58
know economics and ability to spend
00:46:00
whether it's you know a history and a
00:46:02
brand and and and other things and so
00:46:05
you know this melee and and and kind of
00:46:08
you know whole integration set of things
00:46:10
now ultimately you know voters are going
00:46:13
to decide in November right so you know
00:46:15
people do have a you know and I think
00:46:17
that that that staying to our Democratic
00:46:20
process is what's really key like you
00:46:22
know people going to the polls you know
00:46:24
I think we should want to live in a
00:46:25
country where everyone does you know
00:46:27
everyone who is who is legally allowed
00:46:29
to vote does vote um and I think that
00:46:32
that's you know ultimately good thing
00:46:33
now you know are there things that I
00:46:35
would like to change sure I'd like to
00:46:37
change I'd like to have rank Choice
00:46:39
voting you know I'd like to have open
00:46:41
primaries there there's a set of things
00:46:42
like like actually my principal
00:46:44
frustration in all of this stuff is you
00:46:46
know what's what's one of the
00:46:47
fundamental things the two parties agree
00:46:49
on that that that that shouldn't be is
00:46:53
that there should be only two parties
00:46:55
right and I think that's uh I think
00:46:57
that's something that you you need to
00:46:59
fix and you can't fix it unfortunately I
00:47:01
think with independent candidates
00:47:02
because because the whole system is
00:47:04
really set up uh for you know kind of
00:47:06
two parties and independent candidates
00:47:08
are almost always spoilers one way or
00:47:10
the other I mean like on the RFK stuff I
00:47:12
understand there was a bunch of
00:47:14
Democrats who were trying to you know
00:47:16
prevent him from getting on the ballot I
00:47:17
actually prefer him on the ballot
00:47:18
because I actually think his his his
00:47:20
antiva stance you know really fit very
00:47:23
well with with Trump and so I think he
00:47:26
was do you want to address that Reed
00:47:28
because I think there was a rumor that
00:47:29
you were funding some of these lawsuits
00:47:32
to keep him off the ballot or whatever
00:47:34
like have you spent any money to try to
00:47:36
impact RFK one way or the other I
00:47:38
wouldn't be surprised if we look at all
00:47:41
the money that goes to all the different
00:47:43
organizations if organization X kind of
00:47:45
had some kind of ballot thing my in my
00:47:49
voice and instruction was always like no
00:47:51
no no no don't do that that's
00:47:53
anti-democratic but you know you can't
00:47:55
control everything just like you invest
00:47:56
in a company and Co sometimes the
00:47:58
dumbass [ __ ] that you can't do anything
00:48:00
about because you give you give money
00:48:02
you give money to to folks that then
00:48:04
execute their own strategies so you
00:48:06
can't control on the ground tactics
00:48:08
right yeah so there's there's that
00:48:10
happens that you're like no don't do
00:48:12
that right well okay that's a good um
00:48:14
that's a good segue because let's talk
00:48:16
about the five cases against Trump there
00:48:19
are five lawsuits hold on jcal I don't
00:48:22
can we just stay on this top for a
00:48:23
second I think this okay so in in
00:48:26
Michigan Wisconsin you had Democratic
00:48:29
groups they fought RFK Jr's bid to get
00:48:32
on the ballot okay they failed now he
00:48:35
wants to get off the ballot but they
00:48:37
won't take him off now that they think
00:48:39
that his presence hurts Trump and at the
00:48:42
same time Michigan's trying to remove
00:48:44
Cornell West and Wisconsin's trying to
00:48:47
remove Jill Stein so I'm curious do you
00:48:49
think there's any principle on display
00:48:51
here besides naked partisan hackery I
00:48:54
mean basically the Democrats fought
00:48:58
having third parties on the ballot when
00:49:00
they thought it would hurt Biden and now
00:49:04
they want to keep them on the ballot
00:49:06
when they think it's going to hurt Trump
00:49:08
except for those third party candidates
00:49:10
who they still think will hurt Harris so
00:49:12
what is there any principle here or is
00:49:13
this just partisan hacker I I think it's
00:49:17
you know I I frankly you know think that
00:49:19
everyone who follows the legal process
00:49:21
to get on the ballot should be on the
00:49:22
ballot and you know we should follow the
00:49:24
legal process I'm very much of a legal
00:49:27
process kind of person what I'm opposed
00:49:29
to is like you know calling
00:49:30
raffensberger and asking for 11,000
00:49:32
votes right which is not legal right so
00:49:35
so like yeah sure is that is that bad
00:49:38
and and do I advocate against it the
00:49:40
answer is absolutely yes um but it's you
00:49:43
know follow the legal process if the
00:49:45
secretary of state of Colorado throws
00:49:47
Trump off the ballot for example is that
00:49:49
legal process if it's then overruled by
00:49:51
the Supreme Court or could we just say
00:49:53
substantively that states shouldn't be
00:49:55
removing candidates from the ballot
00:49:57
that's
00:49:58
anti-democratic uh well but you want
00:50:01
them to remove RFK from the ballot no
00:50:04
that's not what I saw I okay I'm just
00:50:06
trying to figure out no the the rule is
00:50:08
that well first of all I don't think
00:50:10
that Democratic groups should be suing
00:50:13
RFK to keep him off the ballot and
00:50:15
that's what he said is that Democratic
00:50:17
groups were suing to keep him off the
00:50:18
ballot and they were trying to exhaust
00:50:19
his resources so he couldn't mount an
00:50:21
effective campaign and some of those
00:50:23
groups you funded right so maybe you
00:50:25
didn't know what they were doing but in
00:50:27
any event I consider that to be
00:50:29
anti-democratic RFK is now trying to
00:50:31
remove his name from the ballot I think
00:50:32
as a candidate you're allowed to do that
00:50:34
and those same groups that once fought
00:50:37
to keep him off the ballot are trying to
00:50:39
keep his name on the ballot because now
00:50:41
they perceive yeah because now they
00:50:43
perceive the political calculation to be
00:50:44
a little different so my so I don't see
00:50:47
any of this as being Democratic this to
00:50:49
me is just partisan hackery isn't it so
00:50:52
can't youe that look yes fundamentally
00:50:55
from a Viewpoint of like like for
00:50:57
example my my direct actions and yes
00:50:59
there was you fund a whole bunch of
00:51:01
different groups and you have different
00:51:02
groups doing different things but you
00:51:04
funded them to do this thing that you
00:51:05
were thinking of and things happen it's
00:51:07
just like companies you know my thing
00:51:10
was actually in fact making people aware
00:51:13
of of rfk's antix you know statement his
00:51:16
anti-science stuff because I thought
00:51:18
that would be relevant in the polls in
00:51:20
November that that was the the actual
00:51:23
strategy that that I believe and I think
00:51:25
that would differ entially you know hit
00:51:28
Trump more and so therefore would be a
00:51:30
spoiler right as these independ are I I
00:51:33
have no problem with drawing attention
00:51:35
to issues but I I do think fundamentally
00:51:37
it's anti-democratic to sue third party
00:51:39
candidates to the point where they can't
00:51:41
be on the ballot okay let me ask you
00:51:43
directly Cornell West um there's an
00:51:46
effort right now to remove Cornell West
00:51:48
from the ballot in Michigan do you
00:51:51
support that or would you oppose that I
00:51:53
mean is that democracy but by default I
00:51:56
would oppose it I don't know any of the
00:51:57
details okay fair enough Reed I have a I
00:52:00
have a question for
00:52:01
you it's more of a statement actually
00:52:03
maybe I just left to get your
00:52:05
reaction one of the most divisive issues
00:52:08
that we have right now is people's
00:52:11
position on October 7th Israel
00:52:15
Palestine there is a sense that there's
00:52:18
a growing kind of like virent strain of
00:52:22
anti-Semitism in America a lot of people
00:52:24
point to the extreme left as as where
00:52:27
that's really
00:52:28
gestating there was thoughts that Josh
00:52:31
airo would have been an exceptional
00:52:32
candidate but one of the large reasons
00:52:34
why he was not really meaningfully
00:52:37
considered was his religion I just want
00:52:40
you to comment on the broad issue and
00:52:42
whether you see it in the Democratic
00:52:43
party whether you see it in the
00:52:45
Republican Party whether you see it at
00:52:46
all just give us a sense of where we
00:52:48
stand culturally on this
00:52:51
issue well so like I know Josh airo I
00:52:54
think he's great um you know I've had
00:52:56
I've broken bread with him um and you
00:52:59
know he was meaningfully considered um
00:53:02
you know I think that the um you know I
00:53:05
think we should be so lucky that he
00:53:06
would you know run for presidency
00:53:09
someday uh some year um you know I
00:53:12
actually didn't know Waltz at all and
00:53:14
and and you know was initially kind of
00:53:17
surprised because you know I was like Oh
00:53:20
I thought I was probably going to be
00:53:21
Shapiro and I was like well you know I
00:53:22
think it was you know probably a close
00:53:24
call down to those two and and it looks
00:53:26
like you know you know in making
00:53:28
decisions I think uh you know Harris you
00:53:31
know made a good decision with Waltz so
00:53:34
you know I think it's a um you know now
00:53:37
on the on the anti-Semitism topic I do
00:53:39
worry that you know broadly um we're
00:53:43
seeing you know kind of more rise of
00:53:47
anti-Semitism and that's extremely
00:53:50
important to fight um you know because I
00:53:53
think and I think there are people in in
00:53:55
the you know it's it's a weirdly like
00:53:57
like uh there's some lefties who are
00:53:59
doing it and there's some righties who
00:54:01
are doing it's both a blue and a red
00:54:03
issue in different different shape and I
00:54:05
think it's very important that we you
00:54:07
know we stand against that uh as a
00:54:10
country and so um you know I've been uh
00:54:14
you know kind of mostly just trying to
00:54:15
say hey look we gota we got to be anti
00:54:18
anti-racism anti-Semitism and also
00:54:20
anti-genocide and we got to figure that
00:54:22
out what do you think of kamala's uh
00:54:24
handling of that issue in her speech she
00:54:27
basically seemed to I don't know say
00:54:30
both sides it but she said hey you can
00:54:32
uh believe that the people of Gaza
00:54:34
should be treated more humanely and that
00:54:36
uh you know Israel has a right to defend
00:54:38
herself what do you think of her
00:54:39
handling I think that's rational right
00:54:41
like you should be anti- genocide both
00:54:43
of Palestinians and of Jews right and
00:54:47
and like like it's obviously a very very
00:54:50
thorny topic yes right so um so I think
00:54:53
you know saying that I'm going to try to
00:54:55
protect civilians both sides anti
00:54:57
genocide I think that's a human Caring
00:55:01
Place to be looking out for people Reed
00:55:03
do you think that generally speaking
00:55:05
Marxist socialist principles are taking
00:55:08
a firmer hold on the the the Democratic
00:55:11
party and kind of those principles are
00:55:14
starting to Showcase not just in the
00:55:16
cultural phenomena that that chamath is
00:55:18
referencing but also in some of the
00:55:20
policymaking that's going on and um
00:55:23
concepts of
00:55:25
equity rooted in concepts of social
00:55:28
justice ultimately rooted in Marxist
00:55:31
principles emerging from the Industrial
00:55:32
Revolution what about price fix so so as
00:55:34
an example the price gouging you know
00:55:37
price caps on food
00:55:39
proposal the concept of a wealth tax not
00:55:42
necessarily the unrealized capital gains
00:55:43
tax but separately a tax on wealth all
00:55:46
of these concepts of the degradation of
00:55:48
power structure through policy and in
00:55:51
part some have argued that the
00:55:54
anti-Semitism arises from these
00:55:56
principles and that the Jews are
00:55:57
considered a privileged and Powerful uh
00:56:00
cultural class is that is that not being
00:56:03
observed you not do you not think that
00:56:05
there's some tendencies that are
00:56:06
emerging in the Democratic party and may
00:56:08
be influenced by a louder far-left and
00:56:10
that far-left is becoming more loud and
00:56:12
and better represented in the party look
00:56:15
I think we should speak out against both
00:56:17
the far left and the far right um I
00:56:20
think it's important to do both and so
00:56:22
you know since you know uh I'm I'm I I'm
00:56:25
playing the Democrat here on this
00:56:27
conversation I'll ask you guys to play
00:56:29
the the the or especially Sachs play the
00:56:32
Republican and and speak out against the
00:56:35
the far right too um but the the the
00:56:38
short answer is yes there are amongst
00:56:41
the extreme left that's not everybody in
00:56:42
the Democratic party but the extreme
00:56:44
left there is um some like you know
00:56:47
misunderstandings about you know why
00:56:49
it's important to to defend you know
00:56:51
kind of anti- genocides like from the
00:56:53
river to the Seas like yeah that's a
00:56:54
genocidal statement don't use that one
00:56:57
right that understand what language
00:56:58
you're
00:56:59
using and and to be like look the you
00:57:02
know we've had a great genocidal moment
00:57:04
with you know World War II and we're
00:57:06
still trying to recover from it um two
00:57:08
you know questions around like like what
00:57:10
I think is a a a a foolish wealth tax
00:57:14
even though it's by the way narrow to
00:57:15
like 80% and then on like the the price
00:57:18
gouging stuff um you know one of the
00:57:21
things as I started scratching at it you
00:57:22
know was interesting I think this week
00:57:24
Kroger said yes we did actually
00:57:25
artificial raise prices to profit from
00:57:29
the pandemic you know and yeah you
00:57:31
should stop price gouging it's not quite
00:57:32
the same thing as price capping and
00:57:34
apparently there's laws that affect even
00:57:36
in Florida right or in Texas uh where
00:57:39
some of you know uh you guys are living
00:57:42
so like it's kind of um you know it's
00:57:45
like okay I need to understand this
00:57:46
issue in more depth but I don't think
00:57:47
it's as simplistic as the political
00:57:50
headlines are having it well but the
00:57:52
reason why Comm Harris proposed the
00:57:54
price fixing proposal price G whatever
00:57:56
you want to call it was in response to
00:57:58
inflation in other words we've had 20%
00:58:01
erosion and purchasing power over the
00:58:02
last four years Harris needs a response
00:58:04
to that so she came forward with this
00:58:06
new economic proposal so it's in that
00:58:09
context this came up this wasn't some
00:58:10
proposal by the far left of the party
00:58:13
unless you consider K Harris to be far
00:58:15
left I actually do but okay fair enough
00:58:18
but my point is just this is her
00:58:20
proposal and it's in response to
00:58:22
inflation I mean you don't you
00:58:24
understand what causes inflation right
00:58:26
it's like the government printing too
00:58:27
much money it's not it's not greedy
00:58:29
corporations raising their prices too
00:58:31
much I mean do you agree with that look
00:58:33
I agree that you have to have good
00:58:34
monetary policy and so I think we we
00:58:36
probably agree on that and I think some
00:58:38
printing of money is part of the normal
00:58:40
functioning economy but too much is is
00:58:43
bad and I don't think look I think Price
00:58:46
look part of the reason why we just
00:58:47
talked about antitrust stuff earlier you
00:58:50
do have to look at places where there's
00:58:52
a there's a possibility of kind of
00:58:54
commanding stuff from your
00:58:56
you're a privileged position and like
00:58:58
you know the like I want we all agree we
00:59:00
all agree that monopolies have to be
00:59:01
controlled no no no debate there but
00:59:03
that's not what's caused the inflation
00:59:05
right because we've had inflation of
00:59:06
Commodities not just Monopoly products
00:59:08
but Commodities like just food Staples
00:59:11
eggs you know chicken stuff like that
00:59:14
driven driven by Fuel and labor and all
00:59:17
the other inflationary you know
00:59:18
underpinnings of those markets and I
00:59:21
think we tried to highlight that I don't
00:59:22
know if you saw Elizabeth Warren's
00:59:24
interview on CNBC where she got taken
00:59:25
apart
00:59:26
she made some claims about profiteering
00:59:28
by Craft Hind and the CNBC anchor has
00:59:30
pointed out you actually incorrect craft
00:59:33
hin has seen a reduction in profit over
00:59:35
this period of time and so like there
00:59:37
were factual inaccuracies in these
00:59:39
belief systems but you know for me it
00:59:41
feels a lot like the government setting
00:59:43
prices in free markets is one of those
00:59:45
steps towards socialist principles that
00:59:48
worry me the most yeah and look I
00:59:50
generally speaking as I was saying
00:59:52
earlier I'm like like make sure the
00:59:55
network sets sorts it out versus you
00:59:57
know centralized control totally totally
01:00:00
so so it's kind of like you have to look
01:00:02
at is there a place where you're like
01:00:03
going okay that's the reason I like
01:00:04
focused her words were price gouging and
01:00:07
if you're focused on the kind of gouging
01:00:09
side of it is like there might be a
01:00:10
marketting efficiency that you're
01:00:12
essentially correcting then that's I
01:00:14
think the same kind of thing we were
01:00:16
talking about with like the FTC and the
01:00:18
Apple App Store and so forth if it's
01:00:20
like I'm just going to set a fixed price
01:00:22
on eggs right that's a bad idea and by
01:00:25
the way there's there bad ideas like the
01:00:27
wealth tax thing that I that I disagree
01:00:29
with her her economic thing also had
01:00:31
housing which I think is a you know a
01:00:32
good you know kind of thing to kind of
01:00:34
lower cost for Americans and you know
01:00:37
kind of make that kind of uh stable work
01:00:40
like I think she's she's been good on
01:00:42
immigration um I think this the The
01:00:45
Langford Cinema bill which was from you
01:00:47
know the the the Republican side was
01:00:50
something they were fully prepared to
01:00:51
endorse and you know Trump killed it
01:00:53
because he wanted to campaign on it it's
01:00:55
like look we care about the actual
01:00:56
running in the country and so you look I
01:00:59
think there's a bunch of good things but
01:01:00
if you said do I defend price capping
01:01:02
the answer is not as an independent
01:01:05
principle by itself and by the way are
01:01:06
there people lefties like you know a lot
01:01:09
of what Elizabeth Warren says about
01:01:10
capitalism I disagree with right I mean
01:01:13
I could disagree with you on the border
01:01:14
I think you know kamla Harris used to be
01:01:16
considered the borders are that's gotten
01:01:18
scrubbed I don't think she's done a
01:01:19
great job on that but whatever that I
01:01:21
want to go back to issues that affect
01:01:22
Silicon Valley 25% unrealized gains tax
01:01:26
uh it seems like most of Silicon Valley
01:01:28
almost all of it is either disagrees
01:01:30
with this or is up in arms about this I
01:01:31
think jcal you would you said that this
01:01:34
is disqualify line in the S it's
01:01:35
disqualifying for me for sure yeah so
01:01:37
absolutely I mean do you agree that a
01:01:40
large unrealized gains tax 25% would be
01:01:43
a disaster for Silicon Valley and the
01:01:45
whole startup ecosystem or I mean how do
01:01:47
you come down on that well as I
01:01:50
understand it uh on that tax as it's
01:01:52
proposed is you have to have um 80% % of
01:01:56
your net worth that's right liquid yeah
01:01:58
if 80% or more is
01:02:01
illiquid then no you get to defer the
01:02:03
tax but there's a penalty yeah you get
01:02:06
to defer the tax there's a penalty
01:02:07
that's right look I think it's
01:02:08
definitely a quelling impact and it's
01:02:10
definitely stupid and definitely
01:02:11
shouldn't happen okay you know so we get
01:02:15
your I think we got your position on it
01:02:17
it's stupid yeah we all that but then
01:02:21
but then why isn't it dis why isn't it
01:02:23
disqualifying the way that jcal says are
01:02:25
we just supposed to hope that Comm
01:02:28
doesn't do what she is saying she going
01:02:29
to do I'll tell you why I think that
01:02:32
both the Republicans and the Democrats
01:02:34
have realized that there's actually very
01:02:37
little difference on a lot of the major
01:02:39
things that they actually talk about so
01:02:42
what they're both being forced to do is
01:02:45
realize that because the centrality of a
01:02:48
bunch of the things they say are the
01:02:49
same they each have to go to their
01:02:51
flanks to get the N plus one vote and so
01:02:54
comma goes to the left and spouts all
01:02:56
this stuff that seems Marxist or
01:03:00
socialist or communist because she has
01:03:02
to get those people to vote for her
01:03:05
ultimately I think what ends up
01:03:07
happening is most of the stuff in the
01:03:09
middle has a decent chance of happening
01:03:11
the stuff at the fringes I think they
01:03:13
get put up Sachs almost as like a
01:03:15
sacrificial lamb a good example I think
01:03:17
is like all of the stuff that's
01:03:19
happening with the student loan reform a
01:03:22
half a trillion dollar plan it gets shot
01:03:24
down by the Supreme Court this new plan
01:03:26
another hundred billion dollar not even
01:03:29
being heard yet by the Supreme Court so
01:03:31
I think they know this I mean it's not
01:03:32
like the Biden Administration is dumb
01:03:35
the Trump Administration is not dumb
01:03:36
either so I think what they're doing 10
01:03:38
million people would be an example on
01:03:39
the right and taking away a woman's
01:03:41
right to choose would be the other one
01:03:43
yeah and by the way Trump has said you
01:03:45
keep bringing that up but Trump has said
01:03:47
that he would veto he would not support
01:03:49
a national B oh no I'm talking about
01:03:51
already doing he already he already
01:03:52
overturned Rie wi I'm talking about that
01:03:54
yeah and by the way issue to the states
01:03:56
it's not outlawing abortion and by the
01:03:58
way at the state people in
01:04:01
Austin Texas well but
01:04:04
that's not had a ballot initiative they
01:04:07
have not had a ballot initiative there
01:04:08
just about everywhere there's been a
01:04:09
ballot initiative the pro-choice forces
01:04:11
have won and besides that's a state
01:04:13
issue now jcal not federal yeah no it's
01:04:15
a state issue and Trump succeeded in
01:04:16
taking away a woman's right to choose in
01:04:18
Texas but one thing by the way look in
01:04:20
the spirit of the all-in podcast I
01:04:22
wanted to be clear about like there's
01:04:23
there's there's stuff on the on the Dem
01:04:26
and some of their economic policy for
01:04:28
the far-left people that you know kind
01:04:29
of you know they're advocating for that
01:04:31
I'm opposed to you know Saks I'd love to
01:04:33
hear from you what parts of Trump's
01:04:35
things you're opposed to here we go well
01:04:38
look I mean I have been consistent on
01:04:40
this pod for years that I thought that
01:04:43
the let's call it the like extreme
01:04:46
pro-life side was not good for the
01:04:48
Republican party and I've been opposed
01:04:50
to it um I don't think it's what J Cal
01:04:52
says I think that overturning roie way
01:04:55
did not abortion it basically returned
01:04:56
the issue to the states and if you look
01:04:58
at the referenda that have happened
01:05:00
they've pretty much all gone the
01:05:01
pro-choice Direction so I think that the
01:05:04
overturning of Ro weight has actually
01:05:05
allowed the country to sort of sort out
01:05:08
that issue although it's not completely
01:05:09
sorted out but look I would not support
01:05:13
a National Abortion I would not support
01:05:15
redering the
01:05:16
issue I think there's a lot of issues on
01:05:19
about you know War and Peace where I do
01:05:22
not support the you could say the
01:05:24
establishment con strand within the
01:05:27
party I do not support all these
01:05:28
interventions I do not support these
01:05:30
forever Wars and there is a big debate
01:05:33
in the party about that now one of the
01:05:35
reasons why at the end of the day I
01:05:36
support Trump is I know this will strike
01:05:40
some people as counterintuitive but I
01:05:44
think he is the moderate within the
01:05:46
Republican Party he's a moderate on
01:05:48
abortion I know Jak C you're still
01:05:49
bitter about that Supreme Court case
01:05:52
however he's been very very clear that
01:05:54
he will not support National Abortion
01:05:56
ban moreover he took the abortion
01:05:58
language out of the Republican platform
01:06:00
I think he's the moderate on um on
01:06:03
issues of of War he's he was the first
01:06:06
Republican candidate to run opposing
01:06:08
Bush's forever Wars so I give him credit
01:06:11
on those things on style he may not come
01:06:14
across as a moderate but those are style
01:06:16
points I think on issues he is the
01:06:18
moderate the the issue I have with KLA
01:06:21
Harris is I don't think she's a moderate
01:06:23
you know so like just to take this 25%
01:06:26
unrealized gains tax first when this
01:06:28
issue came up we were assured well she
01:06:30
doesn't really believe that even though
01:06:32
it was in the Democratic platform and it
01:06:34
was in the Biden Harris budget then
01:06:37
people said well maybe it's part of her
01:06:39
platform but it's not a priority for her
01:06:42
and we just had one of her like top
01:06:44
economic advisers come out on I think it
01:06:46
was CNBC defending it and her campaign
01:06:50
confirmed that she supports it okay so
01:06:53
now the argument has become well she
01:06:55
support it it is really part of the
01:06:57
platform she would do it if she could
01:06:58
but she's not going to be able to do it
01:07:00
I just don't think that's a ringing
01:07:01
endorsement of a of a candidate I don't
01:07:04
think you want to support a candidate
01:07:05
because they're not going to be able to
01:07:07
do what they really want to do do you
01:07:09
think she's a moderate or do you think
01:07:10
she's a socialist you know uh gonna take
01:07:14
the country very far left
01:07:16
way yeah but what saaks didn't address
01:07:18
is Trump's tariff policy which is also
01:07:21
inflationary almost equivalent to the
01:07:23
price gouging uh you know food price C I
01:07:25
think that they're both inflationary and
01:07:27
they're both bad policy that's my
01:07:28
personal Point View where I thought it
01:07:30
was going to go but anyway yeah honestly
01:07:33
I'm not I'm not sure what I what I think
01:07:35
of that proposal um you know I guess it
01:07:37
depends on the details I'm not endorsing
01:07:40
I'm not opposing it but but but just
01:07:41
just back to this point that should we
01:07:43
support KLA Harris even though we oppose
01:07:47
all the policies that her campaign says
01:07:49
she
01:07:50
supports because it seems like that's
01:07:52
the argument now is that Silicon Valley
01:07:54
is expected to support Harris even
01:07:56
though she wants and her campaign is
01:07:58
confirmed she wants a 44% capital gains
01:08:01
tax she wants a 25% unrealized gains tax
01:08:04
these are things that I think the vast
01:08:06
majority of silk Valley considers to be
01:08:08
disastrous for the startup ecosystem
01:08:11
should we support her in spite of those
01:08:13
things well and why look the information
01:08:16
did a an actual data poll as opposed to
01:08:19
us being talking head saying we say that
01:08:21
Silicon Valley does X or Y and you know
01:08:24
the information poll showed that There
01:08:26
Was You Know Much broader support for
01:08:28
the Democratic ticket than the
01:08:29
Republican ticket is that is that the
01:08:31
thing that Ron Conway just tweeted he
01:08:33
might have I don't know if he just no
01:08:36
that's that's
01:08:37
different AET that's that's a that's a
01:08:40
different group that's a group to
01:08:41
counteract you and chamath uh throwing
01:08:44
as fundraiser for Trump was like I think
01:08:47
where that came from so so but the
01:08:50
information a news source that that that
01:08:52
ran a poll you know did it objectively
01:08:54
ran the whole thing to to try to answer
01:08:56
the question came out with more folks in
01:08:58
favor of you know the Biden Harris
01:09:01
ticket than I believe why do you think
01:09:03
that is I think that is well because
01:09:05
because look taxes is an important issue
01:09:07
and I think if you ask any any silon
01:09:08
Valley business person they say look
01:09:10
lower capital gains promote long-term
01:09:12
investment ask me that's what I would
01:09:14
say too but you know you kind of go well
01:09:16
what actually in fact you most need for
01:09:18
business is stability uh rule of law not
01:09:22
grifter capitalism where it's like you
01:09:23
know give me a ability to my own nft uh
01:09:27
you know etc etc you know that's what
01:09:30
they go we want that and by the way we
01:09:32
can navigate a higher tax rate it'll be
01:09:35
less fast on growth and everything else
01:09:36
but we can still invest create
01:09:38
businesses you know etc etc but we can't
01:09:41
do it with you know kind of a uh
01:09:43
corroding the rule of law right like you
01:09:46
know I think both uh David both you and
01:09:49
chamath spoke out against the January 6
01:09:51
stuff I'm curious where you're on that
01:09:52
now it's still top of mind for me that's
01:09:55
the reason why the kind of the rule of
01:09:56
law thing is my red line not a tax
01:09:59
policy well let me ask you about that
01:10:00
formally here there are five cases
01:10:02
against Trump you have uh the
01:10:04
Insurrection case you have the New York
01:10:06
taxes case you have the hush money case
01:10:08
you have the EG and Carol Case uh and um
01:10:12
one am I missing there oh and the uh
01:10:14
documents case you funded like Peter
01:10:16
Teel funded The Gawker case uh the EG
01:10:19
Carol Case uh which Trump lost and uh
01:10:23
just to ask you why did you choose to
01:10:25
fund that and do you believe Trump
01:10:27
sexually assaulted Eugene
01:10:30
Carol well it's kind of not relevant
01:10:32
whether or not I did or not what I
01:10:34
funded was an ability to have you know
01:10:37
kind of a woman who doesn't have power
01:10:39
who's being threatened by a rich man
01:10:41
with a lot of money and power to try to
01:10:43
silence her to have her day in court
01:10:44
where 12 everyday Americans right can
01:10:48
come to a judgment and their judgment
01:10:50
was uh that there was an assault and
01:10:52
there was slander about the assault um
01:10:55
and they did it twice and so that was
01:10:57
the reason I funded it and you know I
01:11:00
think that that's important we you know
01:11:02
the laws apply more importantly to Rich
01:11:04
and powerful people than it does to poor
01:11:07
people um that's that's the important
01:11:09
about the the thing I love about America
01:11:11
is a rule of law system and I think
01:11:13
that's what's most important and that's
01:11:15
what's really fundamental that's my red
01:11:17
line relative to kind of lines and the s
01:11:19
that we're talking about um and you know
01:11:22
that's uh you know that's the reason why
01:11:25
the various kind of lawsuits where that
01:11:27
seem to be that that's what's being
01:11:29
emphasized then you know I'm I'm I'm
01:11:32
happy to support them well
01:11:33
you I don't see how it's rule of law
01:11:36
when you have a uh district attorney
01:11:38
Alvin brag who's elected on a promise to
01:11:41
get Trump he then takes what are at most
01:11:45
uh a a bookkeeping misdemeanor that's
01:11:48
past the statute of limitations that's
01:11:50
expired and he turns into 34 felony
01:11:53
charges on a legal Theory that was never
01:11:55
explained to the jury and then basically
01:11:59
Trump is convicted in a sham trial by a
01:12:06
hyperarcs can then run what do you think
01:12:08
of that on The Branding on The Branding
01:12:09
that he's a quote convicted felon so
01:12:11
there are there are four other trials we
01:12:13
got your first one think rule of law
01:12:16
hold on I don't think feedback I don't
01:12:18
want to get re feedback too but mean
01:12:19
finish my point I don't think it's rule
01:12:21
of law when Trump is prosecuted on a
01:12:24
documents charge Biden himself is guilty
01:12:26
of he's got all these documents in his
01:12:28
garage for decades which the the judge
01:12:31
has thrown out and we've seen a bunch of
01:12:33
these lawfare cases where Trump has
01:12:36
ultimately prevailed the judge has thr
01:12:38
it out or he's went on appeal so I don't
01:12:41
that seems to me like abuse of the legal
01:12:43
system for a partisan political goal not
01:12:45
rule of law okay so Reed there's four
01:12:47
other cases two of them Trump's been
01:12:49
convicted in two of them are outstanding
01:12:51
what's your take on the four cases
01:12:52
you've heard Sax's take so what's the
01:12:55
two that he's been convicted J Cal
01:12:57
what's the other one besides the Alvin
01:12:59
there's three there Alvin brag was
01:13:01
convicted uh and then the um Trump
01:13:04
organization with the CFO uh committing
01:13:07
tax fraud he was convicted in that one
01:13:09
as well or the Trump organization was
01:13:11
convicted and people say that's law fair
01:13:13
by Laticia James so guilty guilty guilty
01:13:15
and those three of five so what's your
01:13:17
take on the four that we haven't
01:13:19
discussed you had and heard your opinion
01:13:20
on Huffman so look I think it's you know
01:13:24
it's definitely possible to have some
01:13:27
versions of laware although I think most
01:13:29
people use the term when it's the legal
01:13:32
process and law enforcement that they
01:13:33
don't like um you know I think that in
01:13:36
the brag case you had you know uh you
01:13:40
know indictment and 12 jurors there's
01:13:42
jurors I think as I recall one of the
01:13:44
jurors said he got uh that juror got
01:13:47
their principal news from TR truth
01:13:48
social it was a unanimous conviction um
01:13:52
I think that you know you you have Vice
01:13:55
president uh Pence you know comes out
01:13:57
and says you know Trump asked me to
01:14:00
overturn the election illegally right
01:14:03
that's your own vice president so I
01:14:05
don't think that that kind of suggests
01:14:06
that there's this just rampant political
01:14:09
persecution that there's a lot of fire
01:14:11
where there's all this smoke doesn't
01:14:12
mean that every single thing uh you know
01:14:15
kind of Democrats are trying to put
01:14:16
Trump in jail for 700 years these cases
01:14:19
are still outstanding they want to put
01:14:20
him in jail Reed do you think Trump
01:14:22
should go to jail uh I think if he broke
01:14:25
laws that say he should go to jail I
01:14:27
think the laws apply to powerful people
01:14:29
as much as they apply to Everyday People
01:14:31
right so I think that's why were these
01:14:33
cases why did they wait for two years on
01:14:36
these cases so they could bring them in
01:14:37
an election year actually I don't think
01:14:40
if you look at the like look speaking
01:14:42
factually Trump's lawyers are always
01:14:44
trying to delay the stuff right I think
01:14:45
they were trying to follow every legal
01:14:47
process and Trump's lawyers keep asking
01:14:48
for want to campaign this year instead
01:14:50
of being stuck in a courtroom look after
01:14:52
January 6 this was this was last year
01:14:53
and the year before asking for deferral
01:14:55
setting out trial times like all of the
01:14:58
stuff was from his side trying to delay
01:15:01
it if it got delayed into this year
01:15:03
that's a bad judgment on his his part
01:15:06
Jack Smith just filed new charges new
01:15:08
charges and all this stems from January
01:15:10
6 in the wake of January 6 mayor
01:15:12
Garland's justice department did an
01:15:14
analysis of whether Trump could be
01:15:16
prosecuted for incitement whether he
01:15:18
incited that mob and the legal memo came
01:15:21
back and they said no we don't have a
01:15:22
case here it does not meet the legal bar
01:15:23
for incitement then it was reported by
01:15:25
the New York Times that Biden thought
01:15:28
that mer Garland was basically being a
01:15:30
wimp and they need to go after Trump so
01:15:32
the hyper partisan da or prosecutor Jack
01:15:35
Smith was hired and he came up with a
01:15:37
novel legal theory that somehow Trump
01:15:39
had perpetrated a fraud on the American
01:15:40
people never been seen before and since
01:15:43
then he's been Prosecuting Trump and
01:15:44
seeking to put him in prison and and
01:15:46
when the Supreme Court just kicked the
01:15:48
legs out from under his case with a
01:15:49
recent decision he just refiled charges
01:15:52
I don't understand anyone can look at
01:15:54
this and say yeah look what happened on
01:15:55
January 6 wasn't great but the doj
01:15:57
looked at it it wasn't Criminal but yet
01:15:59
they've been pursuing this guy seeking
01:16:01
to put him away for the rest of his life
01:16:03
seeking to interfere with this election
01:16:06
seeking to deprive the American people
01:16:07
of a choice on a separate track you've
01:16:10
got Democrats in States like Colorado
01:16:13
literally removing Trump from the ballot
01:16:15
okay Reed your
01:16:17
thoughts so look the first thing is um
01:16:21
January 6th I think is a red line I
01:16:24
think it's he did incite a riot whether
01:16:26
or not the legal for it let's let re
01:16:29
finish yeah you know I was fair enough
01:16:32
go ahead sorry right um so I think it
01:16:35
was the you know there was an incitement
01:16:37
of a riot um I think the the riers went
01:16:40
in and you know killed police officers
01:16:44
were looking to kill vice president
01:16:45
Pence you know from the court testimony
01:16:47
courts are the best proxy that we have
01:16:49
for finding truth and stuff it's one of
01:16:51
the reasons why you know by the way and
01:16:53
when for example the Supreme Court says
01:16:55
no that's great that's legal process I
01:16:57
just have to fact check that no police
01:16:59
officers were killed where are you
01:17:01
getting that from uh I think there were
01:17:03
there was the one died from his injuries
01:17:06
and you know very soon after and then no
01:17:08
no no there there was one cop who had a
01:17:10
seizure later it wasn't part of the the
01:17:12
riot no police officers were killed as a
01:17:15
part of the riot I just have to fact
01:17:16
check that it's just not true well and
01:17:18
then there's the the one who committed
01:17:20
suicide too which is a question of you
01:17:22
know I don't know how you that yeah so
01:17:25
so anyway so you got the you know the
01:17:28
the the storming of the capital um you
01:17:31
know he says these people are uh
01:17:34
American Heroes he's going to Pardon
01:17:35
them he's going to hire them into his
01:17:37
administration right and if that's not
01:17:39
encouragement for other people doing
01:17:41
similar things you know wa he's hire
01:17:43
January 6 riers he's gonna hire them
01:17:45
yeah I hav heard that well we we'll
01:17:48
we'll get you the the the the the Trump
01:17:50
speech there's all kinds of wonderful
01:17:51
things in Trump speeches if if you
01:17:53
listen let me let me just move to one
01:17:56
thing so Reed I think this has been an
01:17:58
amazingly robust conversation and I
01:18:01
think you as
01:18:02
always as long as I've known you now for
01:18:04
20 years have been really intellectually
01:18:07
honest I want to ask you a favor which
01:18:10
is can you stay for 10 extra minutes and
01:18:12
talk with us to Bobby Kennedy and the
01:18:14
reason I want you to do that is I think
01:18:16
that there is a bunch of misinformation
01:18:18
I asked you about these things I think
01:18:20
it's important to hear maybe from Bobby
01:18:22
and just for him to know what you
01:18:25
because I do think it's important to
01:18:26
hear from the horse's mouth can you just
01:18:27
give us like 5 10 minutes so that we can
01:18:29
do that because I think it would be an
01:18:31
important thing to do so when is that no
01:18:33
just right now just we're gonna yeah
01:18:35
we're rolling into an interview
01:18:37
with last it's just last minute RFK Jr
01:18:41
who's on vacation said that he would
01:18:43
talk to us about what it was like to
01:18:44
kind of withdraw and all this sort of
01:18:46
stuff and it got so we booked it right
01:18:48
after you but he's in the waiting room
01:18:50
I'm fine to do it I mean it's totally
01:18:53
your choice it's one of the things I
01:18:55
like about your your all-in podcast is
01:18:59
you know kind of like let's let's try to
01:19:01
speak truth okay right so hey uh Bobby
01:19:04
Kennedy is here Mr Kennedy it's great to
01:19:05
have you on the all-in podcast for a
01:19:07
second time uh may I introduce you to uh
01:19:10
Reed Hoffman who you may know of but I
01:19:12
don't think you two have ever met we
01:19:15
have not pleasure to meet you likewise
01:19:19
pleasure Mr Kennedy you dropped out of
01:19:21
the race uh perhaps you could tell us
01:19:23
and I was quite disappointed about it I
01:19:26
really wanted to see a third party
01:19:28
candidate getting into double digits
01:19:29
again and I just want to commend you on
01:19:31
the effort that you put into it maybe
01:19:33
you could tell the audience why you as a
01:19:36
reported never Trumper joined the Trump
01:19:38
team and dropped out so Jason I you know
01:19:42
I'm not actually I haven't actually
01:19:44
terminated my
01:19:46
campaign I suspended it um we've taken
01:19:49
ourselves or we're trying to take
01:19:52
ourselves off the ballot in the in about
01:19:54
11 states so we'll remain on the ballot
01:19:57
in 39
01:19:59
States um and the all red all blue
01:20:02
States will be on the ballot in the
01:20:05
states where we felt we were going to
01:20:08
hurt president Trump with a polling show
01:20:11
that we're we're uh getting off there
01:20:14
mainly the Battleground stat ironically
01:20:17
now the same people whove been trying to
01:20:20
get me off the ballot for a year or
01:20:23
since October
01:20:25
are now fighting to keep me on the
01:20:27
ballot in those States so that's one of
01:20:30
the S of ironies um I you know it became
01:20:35
clear when about two months ago when the
01:20:42
um when it it became clear that I was
01:20:44
not going to be allowed on the debating
01:20:46
stage and I I pretty much had a shut out
01:20:51
in the mainstream media so the
01:20:53
mainstream media uh ABC NBC CBS CNN
01:21:00
MSNBC in 16 or 17 months I had only two
01:21:06
live
01:21:07
interviews um Ross perau during his
01:21:11
10-month campaign had 34
01:21:13
interviews and then you know all of them
01:21:16
were very very much aligned with the
01:21:19
Democratic National
01:21:20
Committee and so when they did mention
01:21:23
my name which was pretty and it was
01:21:25
accompanied by a lot of defamations and
01:21:28
pejoratives and um mischaracterizations
01:21:32
Etc I never really had a chance to reach
01:21:36
those audiences the audiences that I was
01:21:38
reaching I was dominating in I was
01:21:41
beating all the candidates among
01:21:43
Independents which is now the largest
01:21:45
demographic I was beating them among
01:21:48
young people so your audience was
01:21:51
supporting me um the audience that were
01:21:55
listening to long form interviews I was
01:21:58
dominating but in the older audiences
01:22:00
which is a critical Baby Boomers people
01:22:03
who really should have been for me
01:22:06
because they are people who from my
01:22:08
generation who remember the Kennedy
01:22:11
administration they were part of
01:22:13
Camelot they also I was uh very very
01:22:17
popular with them for many years when I
01:22:19
was the environmental Champion
01:22:22
alone and I should have had good inroads
01:22:25
but I was never able to communicate with
01:22:27
them because they watch they get their
01:22:29
news from from the mainstream media and
01:22:33
if you're living in that information
01:22:35
ecosystem you're going to have a very
01:22:37
very low opinion of me I mean if I was
01:22:41
getting my information from those
01:22:43
networks I wouldn't vote for
01:22:45
myself and uh and then uh president
01:22:50
Trump you know reached out to me through
01:22:53
this guy call meanss who a food Advocate
01:22:58
say food
01:22:59
Advocate 3 hours after the shoot after
01:23:03
the shooting at
01:23:04
Butler I got a call from
01:23:07
him and he asked me if I was still
01:23:11
interested
01:23:12
in the specifically in the VP um uh slot
01:23:18
and I said no which I would not have
01:23:22
taken vice president
01:23:25
uh
01:23:26
slot and um he said would I talk to be
01:23:31
willing to talk to the
01:23:33
administration um to president Trump
01:23:36
rather and at first I said
01:23:39
no and and I talked with some of my
01:23:42
family
01:23:44
members and uh including my kids and I
01:23:48
then sent CI means and not saying you
01:23:51
know I'm interested in talking and and
01:23:54
and I got a call almost immediately from
01:23:57
president Trump I spent about I don't
01:24:00
know 30 minutes on the phone with him
01:24:02
and we met the next day in um in
01:24:07
Minneapolis and then we met again more
01:24:10
recently we had continuing talks with
01:24:13
them and we met again more recently for
01:24:16
a very very intensive and long meeting
01:24:18
at marlago with some of his family
01:24:20
members and during those meetings during
01:24:23
the first meeting
01:24:25
we talked about the idea of having a
01:24:27
Unity ticket where I would remain on the
01:24:30
ballot where we would Ally
01:24:33
ourselves on certain critical
01:24:36
issues but we would be able to continue
01:24:39
to criticize each other on the issues
01:24:41
and that we didn't add a line on and
01:24:45
president Trump was very happy with that
01:24:48
Arrangement um and the issues the
01:24:51
critical issues on which we agreed and I
01:24:54
was
01:24:55
really stunting to see the level of his
01:24:57
commitment to those issues was one
01:25:00
anding there are the three issues that
01:25:02
really got me into the presidential
01:25:04
campaign one was uh ending the war in
01:25:09
Ukraine uh the second issue was ending
01:25:12
the
01:25:13
censorship and the third issue and most
01:25:16
important to me was addressing the
01:25:19
childhood chronic disease epidemic and
01:25:22
the you know the these connected issues
01:25:26
about soil health and the corruption in
01:25:29
our Regulatory Agencies by usdaa and FDA
01:25:33
NIH
01:25:35
CDC and HHS which have become sock
01:25:38
puppets for these for the big
01:25:41
pharmaceutical big EG big food
01:25:43
processing industries that they're
01:25:45
supposed to be
01:25:46
regulating um he was very very much
01:25:49
aligned on those issues and it gave us
01:25:53
essentially a beach head um in which to
01:25:57
construct you know this uh an alliance
01:26:00
Bobby let me ask you a question I just
01:26:01
want to go back a little bit because I I
01:26:03
just want to make sure I heard it
01:26:04
properly when Cali called
01:26:07
you was it to be the VP on the Trump
01:26:10
ticket and did you was that asked and
01:26:14
did you consider it and why did you say
01:26:16
no to that but then said yes to this
01:26:19
well I had no interest in being a vice
01:26:22
president if you're vice president it's
01:26:25
a you know I've grew up in politics and
01:26:27
vice president is a worst job in
01:26:30
Washington you have no budget you have
01:26:32
no staff except what that your budget
01:26:35
actually all comes through the White
01:26:36
House so if the Pres if you do something
01:26:39
that uh offends the president he can
01:26:42
literally you know he can take away your
01:26:44
plane he can take away your staff and he
01:26:48
can the only thing you really have is
01:26:50
the Naval Observatory which is the
01:26:53
official presidence to the vice
01:26:55
president and he can essentially put you
01:26:56
under house
01:26:58
arrest and you know I have very strong
01:27:00
views on issues and I you know I felt
01:27:03
like if I took that job I'd be on house
01:27:05
arrest probably on day
01:27:07
three so I you know I um I was not I was
01:27:13
never interested in that Reed had to run
01:27:15
but let's just thank him for appearing
01:27:17
on the Pod and I thought good
01:27:19
conversation and but I thought thought
01:27:22
he approached it in in good faith kudos
01:27:24
to him for stepping into the lion's den
01:27:26
so he was great yeah sorry Bobby keep
01:27:29
going so Bobby let me ask you a question
01:27:32
um you are reportedly a never
01:27:35
Trumper you there's massive Fallout you
01:27:38
cited personally for you as a resident
01:27:41
of Malibu uh the extremely talented
01:27:44
woman you're married to based on
01:27:47
everything I can tell maybe not a fan of
01:27:49
trump so this is maybe causing some
01:27:51
domestic and some local Town issues for
01:27:53
you tell me about your journey from a
01:27:55
never Trumper all your friends are I
01:27:57
think never trumpers to now joining with
01:28:00
Trump that's got to be a hard decision
01:28:02
no yeah it was a very hardw wrenched
01:28:05
decision but you know I I would my whole
01:28:07
kind of Journey was over the
01:28:10
past uh 17 months was uh was just was
01:28:15
kind of a series of
01:28:18
um a very very
01:28:22
difficult uh transition
01:28:24
you know away from the Democratic party
01:28:26
the Democratic party
01:28:28
was you know the party my my family is
01:28:31
one of the central pillars of the
01:28:34
democratic party my family has been in
01:28:37
the Democratic party since 1848 since my
01:28:39
great grandparents came over and my
01:28:43
great-grandfather honey Fitz was the
01:28:45
first Irish Catholic mayor at
01:28:47
Boston his contemporary Patrick Joseph
01:28:50
Kennedy was a state senator and
01:28:52
political boss in Massachusetts it's my
01:28:55
grandfather Joseph Kennedy was you know
01:28:58
FDR's
01:28:59
Treasurer he was the first head of the
01:29:01
secc he was the Ambassador uh to to uh
01:29:06
the court of St James deeply deeply
01:29:08
immersed in Democratic Party politics
01:29:12
all of my uncles Joe Kennedy who was a
01:29:14
delegate to the 1940 uh
01:29:17
convention who spoke there a featured
01:29:19
speaker and then was killed in World War
01:29:21
II my uncle John Kennedy was first Irish
01:29:24
Catholic President of of um um of uh the
01:29:29
United States my other uncle Ted Kennedy
01:29:33
who's one of the longest I think the
01:29:35
second or third longest serving member
01:29:37
of of the United States Senate is is uh
01:29:41
his name on more bills than any other
01:29:43
senator in the United States history and
01:29:45
then of course my father who was
01:29:47
attorney general and I sort of walk away
01:29:51
from that party
01:29:54
was uh you know I guess it was very very
01:29:57
difficult for me and I was actually the
01:30:00
last person in my
01:30:01
campaign to see that to understand the
01:30:05
necessity of that that the Democratic
01:30:07
party was not going to allow me to uh to
01:30:11
compete fairly that they you know they
01:30:13
had rigged the system against us in ways
01:30:16
that were really quite
01:30:18
extraordinary they had just walked away
01:30:20
from democracy they were cancelling
01:30:22
primaries they had
01:30:24
uh they had chosen their candidate and
01:30:26
it was going to be uh President Biden
01:30:28
and they and I was really a nuisance to
01:30:31
them and so my voice was not allow out
01:30:36
there and uh and so that was difficult
01:30:41
and then um uh and then leaving you know
01:30:45
I I declared independence in
01:30:48
October and then uh joining Trump
01:30:51
president Trump was yeah that
01:30:54
I I burnt a lot of bridges I burnt my
01:30:56
boats let me put it that way clearly
01:30:59
clearly is definitely um a challenging
01:31:01
thing to to go from your family being
01:31:04
the Bedrock of the democratic party and
01:31:07
Trump being you know uh obviously seen
01:31:09
as an existential Risk by the Democratic
01:31:12
party so what what should Americans know
01:31:16
about the state of politics and fairness
01:31:20
in America based on what you've learned
01:31:22
what what what do you want the American
01:31:24
people to know about the process of
01:31:26
selecting a
01:31:27
president well and you know I do want to
01:31:30
say that I
01:31:31
feel like I didn't really re leave the
01:31:34
Democratic party the Democratic party
01:31:36
left me and left the um and left the
01:31:40
ruins of uh uh the the infrastructure
01:31:45
that I think my uncle and father had
01:31:48
that had made them
01:31:49
Democrats if you went on a list of all
01:31:52
of the priorities that Robert Kennedy
01:31:54
that John Kennedy had I would check
01:31:57
every box you know they were antiw War
01:32:00
they were anti
01:32:02
censorship they were they were against
01:32:04
the corporate control of of our country
01:32:08
um the this this corrupt merger of state
01:32:11
and corporate power that now has emerged
01:32:14
as the dominant governing model in our
01:32:17
country um the Democratic party has
01:32:20
changed
01:32:21
demographically uh when I grew I grew up
01:32:24
in a Democratic party that was the party
01:32:26
of the working class in our country that
01:32:28
was party of um small businesses that
01:32:32
was the party of the
01:32:34
poor um in the last
01:32:37
election President Biden got roughly
01:32:40
half of the country voting Forum but
01:32:43
that half controlled 70% of of
01:32:47
GDP and president Trump got about half
01:32:50
the country voting for him and that half
01:32:53
repres represents about 30% of
01:32:56
GDP so we've had this
01:32:59
inversion where the Democratic party has
01:33:02
become the party of wealth of
01:33:05
Elites um and I would say very insular
01:33:10
Elites and the um and the Republican
01:33:13
party is now the party of the poor the
01:33:15
working class and uh it's been you know
01:33:18
for me to watch that I've been on the
01:33:20
front
01:33:21
lines of watching it and um you know the
01:33:27
values that held the Democratic party
01:33:29
together are no longer there it's held
01:33:32
together by uh a a sense of tribalism a
01:33:36
sense of and a great great sense of what
01:33:39
I would say orchestrated fear of Donald
01:33:42
Trump it's the only value that really
01:33:44
dominates any
01:33:46
discussion if I talk about censorship to
01:33:49
a Democrat they'll say yes but Donald
01:33:53
Trump is going to become a
01:33:55
dictator if you talk about Children's
01:33:57
Health they'll say never mind that
01:33:59
Donald Trump is the only thing we can
01:34:01
worry about if you talk about you know
01:34:04
about the history of the democratic
01:34:06
party's opposition to
01:34:08
war'll say forget all that the only
01:34:11
thing we can focus on is Donald Trump
01:34:13
and uh that's a very very dismaying and
01:34:18
I would say dangerous form of um
01:34:22
orchestrated tribalism and one of the
01:34:24
other features of the democratic party
01:34:26
is this um this need to control this
01:34:29
mistrust of the of the pleite mistrust
01:34:33
of the demos you know demos is a Greek
01:34:37
word for people and the Democratic party
01:34:39
doesn't trust the people that's why they
01:34:41
have to get rid of Elections that's why
01:34:43
they had to get me off the Bel I
01:34:45
got um I I did something everybody said
01:34:48
all the pundits said could never be done
01:34:51
so I got on the ballot in every state I
01:34:52
got a million people that sign their
01:34:55
sign signatures petitioning me on the
01:34:57
ballot and the Democratic party strategy
01:35:00
rather than to use the3 billion doar it
01:35:03
had to amplify a message and inspire
01:35:06
people and and talk about a vision and
01:35:08
and the virtues of its candidates
01:35:11
instead use them money to try to get me
01:35:14
off the ballot get Cornell off the
01:35:16
Cornell get Jill Stein to use the courts
01:35:20
to use the the uh enforcement agencies
01:35:23
including the Secret Service the CIA the
01:35:26
FBI to try to rig the election and it's
01:35:30
EXA and It ultimately comes down to this
01:35:33
mistrust of the
01:35:35
people which we're seeing now all over
01:35:38
we're seeing the kind of two big forces
01:35:40
emerge one is a populist
01:35:42
force and the other is a force of
01:35:45
control of Ironclad control we saw
01:35:47
Europe has already fallen you know you
01:35:50
saw the arrest of paval durov last week
01:35:54
which was
01:35:55
extraordinary you know the the arrest of
01:35:59
the the the guy who founded
01:36:02
telegram um because he was
01:36:05
hosting uh political
01:36:08
descent and and and you know the
01:36:10
European commission is already openly
01:36:13
censoring content so they did not need
01:36:16
to arrest him they can take off you know
01:36:18
whatever they
01:36:19
want but they went through the to the
01:36:22
trouble of actually and probably with us
01:36:26
encouragement you know catching him when
01:36:28
he happened to land for a refueling stop
01:36:31
in France France has this extraordinary
01:36:34
tradition of free speech that you know
01:36:36
began with the French Revolution and
01:36:38
then again in the 1880s they passed all
01:36:40
these incredible laws their commitment
01:36:43
to free speech is as robust as that in
01:36:45
the United States and yet now you know
01:36:49
and then and then two weeks before that
01:36:52
you had this crazy European commissioner
01:36:54
jry uh
01:36:56
Britton saying that uh ordering ordering
01:37:00
Elan musk not interview Donald Trump a
01:37:03
former president of the United States
01:37:06
the the nominee of of one of the two
01:37:09
major political parties and the world is
01:37:12
not allowed to hear his point of view
01:37:14
yeah it's extraordinary but that is
01:37:16
what's coming to this country and you
01:37:18
can already and a Democratic
01:37:20
party is that the party of control and
01:37:23
it's party of not trusting the people
01:37:26
let's Bobby let's talk about something
01:37:28
then let's assume that this
01:37:30
election goes in the direction of now
01:37:33
your preferred Direction which is Donald
01:37:35
Trump wins what role would you play and
01:37:40
what is your agenda what is it that you
01:37:42
want to accomplish and explain make
01:37:45
America healthy again in that context
01:37:48
maybe yeah I mean I it's the three
01:37:51
issues ending censorship and that's
01:37:53
pretty easy to do you can do it with a
01:37:56
series of executive orders ending the
01:37:58
Ukraine war which is complex but I think
01:38:02
can be done very very
01:38:04
quickly and uh and then you know the
01:38:06
food issue now it's the food it's
01:38:09
medicin it's corruption in the
01:38:11
Regulatory Agencies but would you be a
01:38:13
secretary in that Administration would
01:38:15
you be a special advisor there's no I
01:38:18
you know there there is
01:38:21
no deal in terms of me getting a
01:38:24
particular post so there's just an
01:38:28
understanding that there would be some
01:38:30
kind of co-governance
01:38:32
and the Trump people have already
01:38:35
demonstrated their good faith by um
01:38:39
inviting me to be on the transition team
01:38:42
you know as one of the co-chairs and and
01:38:44
they've done something really wonderful
01:38:46
which is um to bring Tulsi Gabbert in
01:38:51
who shares a lot of my views on this
01:38:53
issue as the other
01:38:55
co-chair and I think that's a signal
01:38:57
that they're sending that they are
01:38:59
sincere
01:39:01
about um I'm you know making a
01:39:03
commitment to these
01:39:05
issues what what should parents know
01:39:07
about uh your thoughts on how to raise
01:39:11
kids in a healthy way make America
01:39:13
healthy again are there any vaccines
01:39:15
that you would say you would advise
01:39:16
parents to take for their kids and how
01:39:18
should they look at the industrial food
01:39:20
complex you know if you were sitting
01:39:23
with us as parents you know uh just
01:39:26
having lunch what would you tell us we
01:39:28
should do with our own kids I mean the
01:39:31
big problem is you can't really trust
01:39:32
the government to tell you the
01:39:34
truth the agencies are all compromised
01:39:37
they all have very very bad uh conflicts
01:39:40
almost all the people for example on
01:39:42
the on the food on the um food
01:39:47
recommendation committees at
01:39:49
FDA are people who are part of the food
01:39:53
industry and the same is true on you
01:39:55
know the on pharmaceutical side the
01:39:59
people are making decisions about what's
01:40:02
good for you are actually people who are
01:40:05
making huge amounts of profit on those
01:40:07
recommendations and so you can't really
01:40:09
trust the recommendations
01:40:11
are um are in your best interest and you
01:40:16
know what we know is that uh there is no
01:40:20
more profitable there's no bigger profit
01:40:23
Center or industry in this country than
01:40:26
a sick child you know they and a sick
01:40:30
child is a lifetime customer lifetime
01:40:32
consumer of very very expensive
01:40:35
products and you have this alliance
01:40:37
between the food industry and the
01:40:39
pharmaceutical industry to keep our
01:40:42
children sick to get them addicted you
01:40:44
know in the 70s and
01:40:46
80s um the the the tobacco industry was
01:40:51
under attack and the two biggest tobacco
01:40:54
companies and out um and bought all the
01:40:58
big food companies R jrisco you're
01:41:00
referring to you yeah and craft and you
01:41:03
know so you had Philip Morris by Craft
01:41:07
and they took a lot of the scientist
01:41:09
from the tobacco industry who are
01:41:11
experts on making products
01:41:13
addictive and they put them to work on
01:41:15
making food addictive on making Ultra
01:41:17
processors so adding AG greed
01:41:20
inset um that make food uh uh that
01:41:24
destroy the the the sa ability of food
01:41:27
so that food doesn't fill you up so
01:41:29
you're always craving
01:41:31
more um and those products many of them
01:41:34
are products you know we have almost a
01:41:37
thousand chemicals in our foods that are
01:41:39
banned in Europe and banned in other
01:41:41
countries um and
01:41:45
uh and those products
01:41:48
are are products that were have been
01:41:51
introduced by by
01:41:54
chemist that did not exist before and
01:41:56
the body does not handle them well well
01:41:58
and you know we're seeing this explosion
01:42:01
chronic disease when my
01:42:02
uncle was President 6% of Americans had
01:42:06
chronic disease you know what the budget
01:42:08
was for chronic disease and when my
01:42:10
uncle was President zero there wasn't
01:42:13
any drugs for it there was no uh there
01:42:16
was no expenditures on chronic disease
01:42:19
today it's $4.3 trillion it's five times
01:42:22
our military budget and the people who
01:42:25
are making money are the the
01:42:27
pharmaceutical companies the uh the
01:42:30
insurance companies which actually you
01:42:32
would think insurance companies would
01:42:34
want people to be well they actually
01:42:36
make more money if they're
01:42:37
sick on the uh the hospital is the
01:42:41
medical cartel the people we trust to
01:42:44
make advice to us about our health are
01:42:46
actually compromise and that's the
01:42:49
difficult part you've got to unravel
01:42:51
that corporate capture freeberg when you
01:42:53
hear this some people might say uh this
01:42:56
sounds like a grand conspiracy theory uh
01:42:58
but much of it rings true to I think
01:43:01
many of us who are parents watching kids
01:43:03
you know uh and watching the prevalence
01:43:05
of obesity watching pharmaceutical drugs
01:43:08
to counter that and all the money that's
01:43:10
made from it and then seeing when people
01:43:11
eat clean and they're healthy maybe
01:43:14
there there's less there so freeberg
01:43:16
when you hear Bobby's uh position here
01:43:20
as a scientist who sold the company to
01:43:22
Monsanto climate.com and who's working
01:43:24
on food today what Rings true about what
01:43:27
Bob's saying and what do you disagree
01:43:29
with if anything yeah there there are
01:43:31
aspects of industrialized food and
01:43:32
processed food that are bad for people
01:43:34
and I I do agree should
01:43:37
be should be
01:43:39
changed I don't I know a lot of people
01:43:42
that work at the USDA a lot of people
01:43:43
that work in other government
01:43:45
organizations that don't make a lot of
01:43:47
money um they may or may not have worked
01:43:50
at other companies but I think that
01:43:51
there's no economic incent for them to
01:43:53
do harm or wrong I think that the real
01:43:56
and so I don't think that there's a
01:43:57
constructive design on doing bad things
01:44:00
by any individual I think that there is
01:44:02
an unfortunate circumstance where people
01:44:04
eat bad stuff stuff that tastes better
01:44:08
they like it more it sells better and
01:44:10
the economic incentive in capitalism is
01:44:12
to make more of that stuff and sell more
01:44:13
of it and as a result the stuff that
01:44:15
people like that isn't good for them
01:44:17
they buy more of and the companies make
01:44:18
more money and so they continue to
01:44:20
invest in selling more and more of that
01:44:22
stuff and this goes most processed foods
01:44:24
it's terrible it's not good and so I do
01:44:26
agree that much of this processed food
01:44:28
industry is um uh very adverse to health
01:44:32
but I don't think that there's a grand
01:44:33
design by individuals that are malicious
01:44:35
and their intent and trying to do it I
01:44:37
think that there are people that are
01:44:38
doing their job on hey this is what the
01:44:39
market want government right yeah in the
01:44:42
government talking about in government
01:44:42
and Private Industry you don't think
01:44:44
people in Private Industry are trying to
01:44:46
make addicting Foods no no I think that
01:44:48
yeah the point is like if people buy
01:44:49
more of it they're like let's sell more
01:44:50
of it you know okay and I I you know and
01:44:52
if that were illegal if it was illegal
01:44:54
to say hey this sort of food product
01:44:56
should not be made but look alcohol fits
01:44:58
the bill too right and we we keep making
01:45:00
alcohol and sugar fits the bill the more
01:45:02
sugar Coca-Cola did a study years ago
01:45:05
where they um they kept increasing the
01:45:07
amount of sugar in Coca colola until
01:45:10
they
01:45:11
maximally uh got sell through so uh some
01:45:14
kids liked 60 grams of sugar and 12
01:45:15
ounces of coke some kids like 30 but the
01:45:18
perfect level was at 42 G and so that
01:45:21
study was done by the scientist that
01:45:23
worked at Coca-Cola and then they said
01:45:25
that's the product it sells it'll sell
01:45:26
the most and that's the incentive inside
01:45:28
of that company that's how that company
01:45:29
operates now you could ask yourself the
01:45:31
question is that evil is that bad we now
01:45:33
know that sugar in general is bad the
01:45:35
executives at Coca-Cola at AB inbev at
01:45:37
other places are trying to make
01:45:38
alcohol-free sugar-free Alternatives so
01:45:41
there's a lot of push by these people
01:45:42
Unilever has tried to make a big push
01:45:45
towards good food Nestle's tried to do
01:45:46
the same they've all made these stated
01:45:47
commitments to improve the health of the
01:45:49
food that they produce but it is quite
01:45:51
difficult to be successful in doing that
01:45:53
and returning money to shareholders the
01:45:55
shareholders are like where's the money
01:45:56
so I me I think this is the key Point
01:45:59
you're making chath I think you're clean
01:46:01
food effort and I took me a decade to
01:46:03
unravel me eating everything in sight
01:46:06
and lose the 40 pounds but shamat when
01:46:08
you hear you know sort of this uh back
01:46:11
and forth between Bobby and fredberg
01:46:13
what's your take on it in terms of and
01:46:16
and also the European lifestyle that you
01:46:17
live for 10 weeks of the Year what's
01:46:20
your take on what should happen here and
01:46:22
how Bobby can be successful I think what
01:46:24
Bobby says Rings true in the way that I
01:46:26
live my life and I just see it
01:46:27
demonstrated on my own body you're right
01:46:30
Jason you know my wife's Italian she
01:46:32
runs an Italian
01:46:34
company we she works Italian and
01:46:37
American hours for 10 months out of the
01:46:39
year and for those 10 weeks we go there
01:46:42
and we flip schedule but when I'm there
01:46:44
I'm consuming Italian produce that isn't
01:46:46
packed in plastic I go to a a local
01:46:49
fruit store I go to the local fish
01:46:50
vendor
01:46:53
and my body changes and I know that
01:46:56
because the people that see me when I
01:46:57
get back they always comment oh did you
01:47:00
lose weight oh do you look you look
01:47:02
thinner or this or that and what's
01:47:04
interesting is I actually do a body
01:47:06
composition before I leave and after
01:47:08
I've done this for seven years now and I
01:47:11
can tell you that my weight doesn't
01:47:12
change that much but my body composition
01:47:15
is completely different and I don't know
01:47:18
what it is except the things that I'm
01:47:20
putting in my body that's different and
01:47:21
so I see it and I'm running a Ab test
01:47:24
every day you know the price what's the
01:47:26
price of the food chamar like is it more
01:47:28
in Italy like do you pay more do you
01:47:29
think well I've already commented on the
01:47:32
fish is outrageous joke yeah um but but
01:47:35
there are ways to eat at a materially
01:47:37
lower price than there is here and the
01:47:40
access to the ultra processed food is
01:47:43
different there you can't get the stuff
01:47:45
and when you and when you do find that
01:47:48
stuff it doesn't have the same you know
01:47:51
glycemic and metabolic Lo on your body
01:47:53
I'm curious what you think of you know
01:47:55
OIC and this category of
01:47:57
drugs breaking the cycle I think you've
01:48:00
been against them or they certainly
01:48:03
helped me uh with half of my weight loss
01:48:05
I know sack's had a good experience as
01:48:06
well and he's been public about it what
01:48:08
are your thoughts on that because it
01:48:09
does seem when people take the take the
01:48:11
glps which exist in your body that they
01:48:15
I'm sure there's more research that
01:48:16
needs to be done they do break this
01:48:18
habit I know anecdotally with me I don't
01:48:20
crave the foods I craved previously and
01:48:22
it did kind of rewire my brain and how I
01:48:25
look at Food even when I'm off of it so
01:48:27
your thoughts on those and and those
01:48:29
potentially being a way to break the
01:48:31
cycle yeah so and this goes to David's
01:48:34
point that you know this is we need to
01:48:37
have cheap food and that that is kind of
01:48:40
a an outcome that is an admirable or
01:48:43
virtuous outcome the problem is the food
01:48:46
isn't cheap it it it's cheap on the self
01:48:49
on the Shelf but it imposes costs on the
01:48:51
rest of us that were the externalities
01:48:54
that were paying elsewhere so when I was
01:48:57
a kid the typical pediatrician would see
01:49:01
one case of juvenile diabetes in his
01:49:04
lifetime over a 40 or 50y year career
01:49:07
one case it was essentially non-existent
01:49:10
disase today one out of every three
01:49:13
children who walks through his office
01:49:16
door is diabetic or
01:49:19
pre-diabetic um when I was a kid the the
01:49:22
autism rates were between 1 and
01:49:24
1500 to 1 and 10,000 Americans and that
01:49:28
is still true in my generation
01:49:30
70-year-old men and my kids generation
01:49:33
according to CDC is one out of every 34
01:49:36
kids some states like California it's
01:49:39
one out of every
01:49:40
22 um 77% of Americans are out or 74%
01:49:46
adults are obese half our kids
01:49:50
obesity when when you know 100 years ago
01:49:54
if you were obese you could get a job in
01:49:56
the surf circus it was so
01:49:58
unusual so we're now and and who's
01:50:02
making profit now OIC oic's not going to
01:50:05
you can obesity is absolutely and
01:50:08
diabetes are absolutely treatable by
01:50:10
good
01:50:11
food that's the cause now
01:50:15
oamic is a good profit Center for it had
01:50:19
for um for Pharma there's a now which
01:50:23
has been paid for by the company that
01:50:25
makes it which is the biggest company in
01:50:27
new Europe no
01:50:28
nordis that in in Denmark where that
01:50:32
company is they do not recommend it it
01:50:35
it the the uh uh the treatment of
01:50:39
diabetes the standard of care is diet
01:50:43
and
01:50:44
exercise but that company's entire value
01:50:47
is based upon the projections of what is
01:50:50
going to sell in the United
01:50:51
States and it has and that company is
01:50:54
pouring tens of millions of dollars into
01:50:56
lobbying to pass this bill that will
01:50:59
make Medicare pay for it for every
01:51:02
American who obese that could be 74% of
01:51:05
people are now eligible I think it's
01:51:08
$1,500 a week the cost of that will be
01:51:11
three trillion a year if you took three
01:51:14
trillion a year a tiny fraction of that
01:51:16
you could buy organic food three meals a
01:51:19
day for every human being in the United
01:51:21
States so wouldn't that be a better
01:51:24
expenditure of our money and you know I
01:51:29
what I would say is the you know the
01:51:31
food producers it's not a conspiracy
01:51:33
it's just people following perverse
01:51:36
incentives and there are conspiracies I
01:51:39
mean when I sued um Monsanto we got
01:51:42
emails that showed that the head of the
01:51:44
pesticide division Jess Roland for a
01:51:47
decade at EPA was secretly working for
01:51:51
Monsanto the entire time
01:51:53
sabotaging studies creating false
01:51:56
science that hide the cogenic nature of
01:51:59
Roundup so there are those kind of
01:52:02
instances throughout the federal
01:52:03
government but mainly it says perverse
01:52:05
incentives almost all almost close to
01:52:09
100% of our of our food agricultural
01:52:13
subsidies go to process food I mean go
01:52:16
to commodity agriculture which is the
01:52:18
feed stock for processed food so and
01:52:21
then if you look at mostly mostly for
01:52:23
mostly for
01:52:24
meat the
01:52:26
industry controls through lobbying and
01:52:30
through you know all these other
01:52:31
mechanisms for corporate capture
01:52:33
controls the expenditures in the food
01:52:37
stamp program so 70% of the food stamp
01:52:39
program goes for processed food
01:52:42
10% goes for sugar drinks like
01:52:44
Coca-Cola which are just diabetes
01:52:47
machines so why are we poisoning poor
01:52:50
kids in this
01:52:51
country the school lunch program the
01:52:54
same thing almost 80 I think 77% of food
01:52:57
food lunch program is terrible foods
01:53:00
that are actually poisoning our children
01:53:02
and you know don't we you know don't we
01:53:05
care enough about our kids to
01:53:07
say we need you know we we want to care
01:53:10
about them we want to make sure that
01:53:12
they're not sick they are the most
01:53:15
precious things in our country shouldn't
01:53:17
that be the focus and you know whatever
01:53:19
we're doing to make them so sick
01:53:22
when I was a kid 6% of American kids had
01:53:26
chronic disease today 60% is that not an
01:53:29
alarm is that not you know something
01:53:31
that we should all be concerned about I
01:53:34
will I will agree on um an important
01:53:37
Point uh you know the the the food stamp
01:53:39
program the snap program provides food
01:53:42
stamps to support 42 million Americans
01:53:46
42 million people rely on food stamps it
01:53:48
costs $20 billion dollar of federal
01:53:51
money per year
01:53:53
and as um as Bobby said the number one
01:53:56
product bought on the food stamp program
01:53:57
is soda canned soda and there was an
01:54:01
important debate a few years ago about
01:54:03
whether or not canned soda by the way
01:54:06
Bobby you and I probably agree on a lot
01:54:07
of things there definitely a lot of
01:54:08
things we don't agree on but like these
01:54:10
aspects I think are just no brainers uh
01:54:13
there was a debate a few years ago about
01:54:15
whether or not canned soda should be
01:54:17
allowed as a purchase on the food stamp
01:54:18
program or whether it should be fresh
01:54:20
fruits and vegetables and Grains and
01:54:22
other
01:54:23
and ultimately there was a food lobbying
01:54:25
effort made uh that kept uh caned soda
01:54:28
on the food stamp program and it is uh
01:54:30
again $120 billion of annual federal
01:54:33
spend with the biggest line item going
01:54:35
to can soda to you know feed 42 million
01:54:38
Americans and and the the the the
01:54:40
connection is completely direct high
01:54:42
sugar high glycemic index diabetes and
01:54:45
other chronic health conditions arise
01:54:47
from that connection so um definitely
01:54:50
aligned with you on the Mis incentives
01:54:53
and the disincentives in these programs
01:54:55
that have been created and they only
01:54:56
expand every year Bobby can you comment
01:54:58
on when people talk about revamping the
01:55:01
food supply one of the things that
01:55:04
sometimes is not allowed to be said is
01:55:06
that focusing on organic food and
01:55:09
produce can exclude certain communities
01:55:13
and so there's like this Dei filter that
01:55:15
preferring that is almost racist in some
01:55:17
way like can you just comment on that
01:55:19
whole vein of thinking and your thought
01:55:20
on that
01:55:22
yeah I mean I think feeding people
01:55:24
poisonous food is racist and by the way
01:55:27
the NAACP gets huge amounts of money um
01:55:31
every year from the food industry it may
01:55:33
be one of the biggest I think I think
01:55:35
Coca-Cola is the biggest um supporter V
01:55:38
ACP so a lot of the NGS that are
01:55:41
supposed to
01:55:42
be concerned about the the
01:55:45
disproportionate uh impact on minority
01:55:48
communities of federal policies have
01:55:50
actually been bought off and bought into
01:55:51
the pro says and you know a lot of times
01:55:54
those are the voices you hear saying
01:55:56
this is racist what's really racist is
01:55:59
po poisoning black Americans because
01:56:02
these are communities that are food
01:56:05
deserts um the school lunch program is
01:56:08
the you know often times those
01:56:09
communities the biggest access that they
01:56:11
have to food and we're giving them
01:56:13
poison food we're you know they many of
01:56:16
these communities have no Grocery
01:56:18
Stores um they you know they no big like
01:56:22
they definitely don't have uh Whole
01:56:24
Foods they don't have access to to those
01:56:27
kind of foods shouldn't we have National
01:56:30
policies that that make sure our people
01:56:34
are healthy and you know they use of
01:56:37
course Market uh Dynamics but also
01:56:39
supports we're we're
01:56:41
giving billions of dollars in
01:56:43
agricultural subsidies for Farmers to
01:56:47
addict Farmers to to to Growing
01:56:50
commodity agriculture which is bad food
01:56:52
food it's low in nutrients it's high in
01:56:54
chemicals it's high in
01:56:57
pesticides and you know we need to
01:56:59
change these perverse incentives so that
01:57:02
uh and and feed
01:57:04
America I you know we what how can
01:57:07
anybody argue with this how can anybody
01:57:09
say that we should not have healthy
01:57:11
children that we should be giving people
01:57:13
food that is hurting them it's just it
01:57:15
doesn't make any
01:57:16
sense sax any questions for you for
01:57:19
Bobby about democracy
01:57:23
what went down with Biden the fairness
01:57:25
of the democratic party I know you've
01:57:27
got some strong feelings on it so I just
01:57:28
wanted to give you your red meat and
01:57:29
your window here I'm I'm sure a lot of
01:57:32
his confirming for you what he's saying
01:57:34
um and you know I'll be honest I think
01:57:36
what the Democratic party did to you Mr
01:57:39
Kennedy was absolutely abhorent and
01:57:41
disgusting and it it really is um
01:57:43
infuriating to me especially what the
01:57:45
mainstream media did um and I'm glad
01:57:48
that we got to have you on early on our
01:57:51
podcast at least to some of your ideas
01:57:53
get out there but uh let's give Sax's
01:57:55
red meet here because you joining Trump
01:57:58
is a a wild card I don't think any of us
01:58:00
saw coming well let me pick up on those
01:58:02
themes jcal uh first of all I want to
01:58:04
commend Bobby on running an upbeat and
01:58:06
positive campaign you know you were and
01:58:09
I still are the most articulate and
01:58:12
Powerful champion of free speech over
01:58:14
censorship civil liberties over the
01:58:17
surveillance State peace over War you've
01:58:20
spoken about the issue of chronic Health
01:58:22
which it to be honest is an issue I
01:58:24
didn't know that much about but I think
01:58:25
you've put it now on the political radar
01:58:27
screen in a way that it's not going away
01:58:29
uh so I think you ran a a very Noble and
01:58:33
effective campaign and I think like you
01:58:36
said it was a campaign for the soul of
01:58:37
the democratic party you know I think
01:58:40
you represented issues that in the days
01:58:44
of your father and President johnf
01:58:46
Kennedy these would have been Democratic
01:58:48
party issues how did the Democratic
01:58:50
party respond they effectively ran you
01:58:52
out they did not give you the chance
01:58:54
they conducted law fair to keep you off
01:58:56
the ballot they didn't let you debate I
01:58:59
heard your running mates say they even
01:59:00
tried to infiltrate your campaign and
01:59:03
all the while this party was claiming to
01:59:05
be the party of democracy find that
01:59:07
incredibly
01:59:10
hypocritical I think that if they had
01:59:13
given you the opportunity to debate I
01:59:15
think we now know what would have
01:59:17
happened I mean we saw what happened
01:59:19
when Biden actually debated Trump is
01:59:21
there's a complete
01:59:22
implosion of Biden's campaign we
01:59:25
discovered that indeed the Democratic
01:59:27
party had been hiding his condition for
01:59:30
a long time and when he was finally
01:59:32
forced to debate didn't have a
01:59:35
teleprompter or a script it became
01:59:37
extremely obvious what happened then
01:59:39
they basically put in a new nominee
01:59:42
who's never been voted on K Harris has
01:59:45
never received one primary vote it was
01:59:48
done through a process that was opaque
01:59:50
we still don't know how it went down I
01:59:53
have to disagree with Reed that um Biden
01:59:55
did it in a voluntary way Biden went
01:59:58
Kicking and Screaming I mean he
01:59:59
basically said publicly over and over
02:00:01
again I'm not leaving the race I'm in
02:00:02
this race he tweeted it he said it he
02:00:04
said only God Almighty could get me out
02:00:06
of the race and then it was reported
02:00:08
that Nancy Pelosi went to him and said
02:00:09
we can do this the easy way or the hard
02:00:11
way you said God
02:00:13
Almighty she might be God Almighty she
02:00:15
might
02:00:16
Bey but the point is there was nothing
02:00:18
Democratic about this and now we have a
02:00:20
new Democratic Party nomy who refuses to
02:00:23
do press conferences refuses to do solo
02:00:27
interviews refuses to take questions
02:00:29
from the Press who's hiding herself
02:00:31
effectively and yet this party again
02:00:34
claims to be the party of democracy I
02:00:36
find it just almost um maddening or or
02:00:40
ging again in its hypocrisy and I just I
02:00:42
don't see how everybody can't see
02:00:45
through
02:00:46
this it's just not the way that
02:00:48
democracy is supposed to work and I
02:00:50
certainly don't think that the people
02:00:52
engaging these tactics can be cloaking
02:00:55
themselves in all this High fluing
02:00:57
rhetoric of of democracy it's just
02:00:58
absurd and so I feel like I'm in the
02:01:01
place that you are Bobby you know as
02:01:03
viewers of this pod know I did not start
02:01:05
off supporting Trump in the primaries I
02:01:08
supported you in the Democratic primary
02:01:09
and I did fundraisers for DeSantis and
02:01:12
V and that was in large part because I
02:01:15
think of the job that DeSantis did as
02:01:17
Governor but when it came to the general
02:01:19
the realization that I came to is that
02:01:21
Trump is the indispensable figure in our
02:01:24
current politics for marshalling this
02:01:26
populist energy to resist this
02:01:31
hypocritical Elite
02:01:33
authoritarianism that wants to engage in
02:01:35
censorship over debate that seems to
02:01:39
want to protect and defend this um
02:01:42
surveillance State over anything it
02:01:43
wants to do that wants to keep all these
02:01:45
wars going uh even when they don't make
02:01:47
sense when we could have found a way to
02:01:49
negotiate a diplomatic end to them and
02:01:52
so I'm kind of delighted that you've
02:01:54
kind of come around to this opinion too
02:01:55
I know you have your reservations about
02:01:56
Trump I'm not saying that Trump is
02:01:58
perfect I mean I think he's a uh he's
02:02:00
human I mean he's a flawed vessel but at
02:02:02
the end of the day he is the the choice
02:02:05
that represents again these populist
02:02:07
forces resisting authoritarianism sorry
02:02:09
this is more of a statement than a
02:02:10
question but I'll let you react to all
02:02:11
of that well let me react the last thing
02:02:15
you said about President Trump I
02:02:17
think if president Trump wins um that
02:02:21
people are going to see very different
02:02:23
president Trump than they did during the
02:02:24
first term um I think he's changed as a
02:02:27
person uh and I've known him for you
02:02:30
know 30 years I've sued him I've
02:02:32
litigated against him and and had a
02:02:34
friendship with him even when I was
02:02:36
litigating against
02:02:37
him and by the way successfully against
02:02:40
him but I I think he is um he's focus on
02:02:46
his legacy he said many interesting
02:02:48
things to me about what he did wrong the
02:02:50
last time and about how
02:02:53
he filled his you know he had no idea he
02:02:55
was going to win he had no idea how to
02:02:57
govern and people descended on him the
02:02:59
day that he got elected and said you got
02:03:01
to appoint this guy appoint this guy and
02:03:03
he said you know I I appointed a lot of
02:03:06
people I shouldn't appointed I know who
02:03:07
they are now he also said something
02:03:10
interesting to me he said uh because the
02:03:13
Democrats one of the big sort of fulgums
02:03:16
of their Terror of trump is that he's
02:03:20
going to implement this Heritage
02:03:21
Foundation
02:03:22
you know uh blueprint which is called uh
02:03:25
project
02:03:26
2025 and he brought this issue up to me
02:03:28
and he said you know they always telling
02:03:30
me I'm I'm for project 2025 I never read
02:03:33
project 2025 until they started accusing
02:03:35
me of it he said that was written by a
02:03:39
right-wing ass this what he what he said
02:03:42
he said there are leftwing [ __ ] and
02:03:44
there was there right-wing assh and it
02:03:46
was a right-wing [ __ ] who wrote that
02:03:48
thing and then he started going through
02:03:50
it so I you know I think there there's a
02:03:54
lot and I think he's interested in his
02:03:56
legacy now he wants to leave behind some
02:04:01
accomplishments and he wants to make our
02:04:03
country better and I think he's um you
02:04:07
know he's listening to a wider range of
02:04:09
voices and has he's preparing to govern
02:04:13
right now and you know I'm going to be
02:04:15
on the transition committee picking the
02:04:18
people who are going to
02:04:19
govern to he's going to be there there's
02:04:21
going to be a wide diversity of of
02:04:24
stakeholders but he's listening to more
02:04:26
than just that kind of narrow right-wing
02:04:28
band that people are terrify it would be
02:04:30
great if you could get to him because
02:04:31
you know he he really did present well
02:04:33
on this podcast and had like a very good
02:04:35
moment in that first half of the RNC and
02:04:38
then he started defaulting back to and I
02:04:40
know a lot of moderates like myself hate
02:04:42
this about him and it's a big part of
02:04:44
why we don't like him is he goes back to
02:04:46
Insel Comics goes back to race goes back
02:04:48
to gender you know and it's just like
02:04:51
dude we that Trump 1.0 is what people
02:04:54
don't want they don't want chaotic Trump
02:04:56
they want you know post assassination
02:04:59
attempt Trump and it's just so
02:05:02
infuriating well a lot of people feel
02:05:04
that way J con I think at the end of the
02:05:05
day you and others are going to have to
02:05:08
decide do you want to support the
02:05:09
candidate who has the right policies but
02:05:11
maybe there's style points that you
02:05:13
don't like about him because I think
02:05:15
that the things you're talking about the
02:05:17
Mean Tweets and so forth at the end of
02:05:19
the day I think they're stylistic things
02:05:22
I don't think they go deep to to policy
02:05:24
or how he would govern or do you want to
02:05:27
support a campaign that is running on
02:05:30
Vibes and joy you know that has this
02:05:33
superficiality that you like but there's
02:05:35
nothing underneath it and when we do
02:05:37
learn something underneath that when we
02:05:39
actually learn a policy then all the the
02:05:42
people who are supporting her have to
02:05:44
say oh well she's not really going to do
02:05:45
that she's not going to do that so the
02:05:47
best thing you can say about her
02:05:49
campaign is that she's not going to be
02:05:51
able to accomplish the things that she
02:05:52
says she wants to accomplish good news
02:05:55
basis on which to vote for a president
02:05:57
good news is I'm in Texas so I can put
02:05:59
in my my Bobby Kennedy vote as a protest
02:06:01
vote and it doesn't make a difference
02:06:03
and I can I can I respond to the other
02:06:05
part of David's question to me sure they
02:06:09
um and you know I think to me the most
02:06:11
troubling thing about what's happening
02:06:13
now you have you've had two Democratic
02:06:15
candidates who've not been able to give
02:06:18
unscripted interviews which is
02:06:19
extraordinary I mean my father
02:06:22
and Uncle we're so proud of you know the
02:06:25
United States our capacity to engage in
02:06:27
debate to defend who we were in the
02:06:29
world to defend a vision of our country
02:06:31
to articulate it to the rest of the
02:06:32
world to be the leaders of the Free
02:06:35
World and um and have a command of the
02:06:38
facts and of knowledge and to be
02:06:40
eloquent and um how can you be a leader
02:06:43
in the world what does the rest of the
02:06:45
world think of us right now I mean what
02:06:48
could they possibly think we have two
02:06:50
Democratic party candidates
02:06:52
were not able to explain themselves in
02:06:56
an
02:06:58
interview the other day something yeah I
02:07:01
really I think point in which is if you
02:07:04
want to if you want the job of handling
02:07:06
the nuclear codes you got to do an
02:07:08
interview first and you know how can you
02:07:11
go 30 39 days without talking to the
02:07:15
Press without being able to defend your
02:07:19
record to explain who you are to the
02:07:21
American people and if you talk to
02:07:23
Democrats about this and you can get
02:07:26
past the anger and past the vi on this
02:07:28
kind of wall of of
02:07:30
tribal resistance to any new knowledge
02:07:33
coming in what they or any con contrary
02:07:37
facts what they'll say is well we're not
02:07:40
really voting for comma we're voting for
02:07:43
the
02:07:44
apparatus then you ask the next question
02:07:48
how has that apparatus serve you you
02:07:50
know has the open border surve you has
02:07:53
the $35 trillion debt surve you has all
02:07:56
the endless war surve you has the
02:07:59
destruction the American middle class
02:08:02
highest inflation rate in a
02:08:04
generation has any of that actually you
02:08:07
know has that apparatus produced
02:08:09
something for the United States that
02:08:11
you're so proud of that you want to
02:08:13
blindly vote without knowing who you're
02:08:15
voting for anyway that that I mean and
02:08:19
and uh KLA and Waltz will do an
02:08:21
interview Dana Bash tonight uh the night
02:08:23
we're taping this on Thursday so we'll
02:08:25
see maybe she'll miraculously do 10
02:08:27
podcasts and she'll be dynamic but it
02:08:30
certainly doesn't look good that they
02:08:32
filibustered with Biden and gave them
02:08:34
only most favored nation interviews I do
02:08:36
respect the fact that we've had so many
02:08:38
great candidates come on this pod and
02:08:40
have 90minut two-hour discussions I'm
02:08:42
very proud of the work we've done here
02:08:44
and and Bobby you were a keep piece of
02:08:45
that and we really appreciate you coming
02:08:47
on early and having these debates and
02:08:48
coming here today to talk about it just
02:08:51
me means the world for you to come back
02:08:52
and talk about this wish you great
02:08:53
success with make America healthy again
02:08:55
I think it's incredibly Noble
02:08:56
independent of how I feel about Trump
02:08:58
January 6 abortion any of those issues I
02:09:01
respect the fact that you want to make
02:09:02
America healthy again uh and I wish you
02:09:05
great continued success with that and we
02:09:08
will see you all next time on the
02:09:10
podcast
02:09:12
byebye let your winners
02:09:14
ride Rainman
02:09:19
David and said we open it to the fans
02:09:22
and they've just gone crazy with
02:09:23
[Music]
02:09:32
it
02:09:33
[Music]
02:09:35
besties myg
02:09:39
driveway oh
02:09:42
man we should all just get a room and
02:09:44
just have one big huge orgy cuz they're
02:09:46
all this useless it's like this like
02:09:48
sexual tension that they just need to
02:09:49
release somehow
02:09:51
what
02:09:55
your we need to get mer
02:09:59
[Music]
02:10:05
our
02:10:06
[Music]
02:10:08
going and now the plugs the all in
02:10:11
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University lunch. closeapply to apply
02:11:15
for funding from your boy jcal for your
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startup and check out Athena wow.com
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this is the company I am most exced
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excited about at the moment Athena
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wow.com to get a virtual assistant for
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but $3,000 a month I have two of them
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thanks for tuning in to the world's
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number one podcast you can help by
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telling just two friends that's all I
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ask forward this podcast to two friends
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and say this is the world's greatest
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make you smarter it'll make you laugh
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laugh while learning we'll see you all
02:11:42
next time bye-bye
