00:00:00
David sax had a last minute board
00:00:01
meeting so he will not be joining us
00:00:04
I'll be David sax please do your best
00:00:06
impression can you imagine hi Jason
00:00:09
hello sister how are you Jason do you
00:00:11
know what I'm about to do I'm so excited
00:00:14
I'm so excited tell me do you remember
00:00:17
fake jth of course yes do we have the
00:00:19
login did you know who that is of course
00:00:21
right oh you're gonna reveal who fake
00:00:23
jth is I'm revealing oh wow it's a big
00:00:26
reveal years later I want that handle I
00:00:30
would like to get that handle and give
00:00:31
it to someone to be I I hand it to you
00:00:33
whoever you want well trust me there's a
00:00:35
lot of people who would love to have the
00:00:36
fake Troth handle well how do I get it
00:00:38
do I ask the TW can I ask Linda at
00:00:40
Twitter for it yeah I you know we might
00:00:43
know somebody at Twitter who can reach
00:00:45
can help me I am so credible as the
00:00:47
person who deserves that password of all
00:00:49
the people who've suffered spending time
00:00:52
with chamath you're you're at the top of
00:00:53
that list anybody has the right to mock
00:00:58
chth I mean you've had to watch his
00:01:01
growth over 20 years you've had to
00:01:04
suffer I raised him I raised jamat and
00:01:07
he raised me right
00:01:10
back let your winners
00:01:12
ride Rainman
00:01:17
David and instead we open source it to
00:01:19
the fans and they've just gone crazy
00:01:21
with it queen
00:01:25
of all right welcome back to the program
00:01:27
everybody one of the guests we've always
00:01:29
dreamed about having on the show is
00:01:30
considered one of the great business
00:01:31
operators of all time in Silicon Valley
00:01:33
for the past 20 years Cheryl Samberg was
00:01:35
a key some might say the key pece in
00:01:38
building the two largest advertising and
00:01:40
technology companies in the world Google
00:01:43
and Facebook paradoxically they they
00:01:45
don't go by those names anymore alphabet
00:01:47
and meta when she joined Google in 2001
00:01:50
it had 20 million in Revenue they were
00:01:52
private and when she left in 2008 they
00:01:55
had $22 billion in Revenue when you
00:01:57
joined Facebook in 2008 it was at2 $70
00:02:00
million in Revenue when she left it was
00:02:02
at 117 billion market caps of those two
00:02:05
companies have grown 100 billion and 950
00:02:09
billion during her ten years and today
00:02:11
both are worth over $3 trillion combined
00:02:14
and are the number four and number seven
00:02:15
market cap companies in the world
00:02:18
however to our crew she will always be
00:02:20
bestie Dave Goldberg's dream girl as he
00:02:23
once described it to me he told me he
00:02:25
pursued her relentlessly until she
00:02:27
finally gave in dated and then married
00:02:30
and started a beautiful family together
00:02:33
Dave Goldberg passed away nine years ago
00:02:35
this week uh in 2015 in an alternate
00:02:39
universe on a different timeline Goldie
00:02:40
would have been one of the four people
00:02:42
on this panel because he was the most
00:02:44
wise funny super mench of the entire
00:02:46
10-person
00:02:47
core poker group the original poker
00:02:50
group in fact he was twice the man of
00:02:53
any of us which given the low Benchmark
00:02:55
we've
00:02:56
set isn't that difficult we can get at
00:02:59
least three shows is worth of wisdom
00:03:00
from our current guest but that's not
00:03:02
why she's joining us today she made a
00:03:04
documentary and we're here to talk about
00:03:06
that and we'll have some time for
00:03:07
business talk at the end which is going
00:03:09
to be a very hard pivot uh given the
00:03:11
nature of the doc the doc she
00:03:13
co-produced is called screams before
00:03:15
silence I watched it on the flight back
00:03:17
from New York I had to take three breaks
00:03:20
and it took a lot of tissues if I'm
00:03:21
being honest it is one of the most
00:03:24
difficult hours of viewing I've ever had
00:03:26
in my life it is focused on the ual
00:03:30
violence committed by Hamas during and
00:03:31
after the October 7th attacks and which
00:03:35
tragically in all likelihood continues
00:03:37
today with the hostages who are still
00:03:40
somewhere in Gaza the documentary also
00:03:42
takes on flames in our polluted
00:03:44
journalistic conspiracy filled media
00:03:46
landscape that claim none of this
00:03:49
happens she traveled to Israel to
00:03:50
conduct interviews for it and outside of
00:03:52
comforting the victim she spends less
00:03:54
than 90 seconds speaking in it herself
00:03:56
the stories of course speak for
00:03:58
themselves now the this isn't a
00:04:00
disclaimer but some context about this
00:04:02
podcast for those of you who are here
00:04:03
for the first time might be helpful we
00:04:06
realize we're waiting into a conflict
00:04:07
that is thousands of years old and it's
00:04:09
shrouded in pain and suffering with a
00:04:12
foundation on the most deeply held
00:04:14
religious beliefs Humanity has ever
00:04:15
formed when we do podcasts like this and
00:04:17
have guests we'll be championed by one
00:04:20
side and derided by the other but as you
00:04:21
know we don't shy away from the hard
00:04:23
discussions on this podcast we go all in
00:04:25
on them equal time will always be given
00:04:28
and we welcome all sides on these
00:04:30
difficult discussions it goes without
00:04:31
saying that we're not here to be your
00:04:33
expert or final Authority we're here to
00:04:35
have a first principal discussion and to
00:04:37
personally learn alongside each other in
00:04:38
good faith in good faith this is a
00:04:41
really important concept because it's
00:04:43
hard to have these discussions in good
00:04:45
faith today so with that I'll welcome to
00:04:48
the all-in podcast our bestie Cheryl
00:04:50
Samberg well saying two things you just
00:04:53
said that Dave would have been on this
00:04:54
podcast I've thought that actually um
00:04:57
and calling me a bestie because I've
00:04:58
been friends with of you for so long
00:05:00
means a lot to me yeah uh Jason you
00:05:03
dedicated your book to Dave that meant
00:05:05
everything to me David freeberg and I
00:05:07
have been traveling around together to
00:05:08
conferences sitting in the backseat of
00:05:10
cars and shath it's a really special
00:05:13
moment to be here with you we uh we lost
00:05:15
Dave nine years ago yesterday we were at
00:05:19
our dear friend Phil Jo's 50th birthday
00:05:21
party it happened
00:05:23
suddenly uh I was in shock everyone was
00:05:26
in shock chamath sprung into action took
00:05:28
care of every logistical thing you could
00:05:30
have possibly needed but then he did
00:05:32
something you did something shath even
00:05:34
more important which is you showed up
00:05:35
for my
00:05:36
children not just for the days and weeks
00:05:39
but for the months and years afterwards
00:05:41
and one of the many things you did is
00:05:42
you taught them to play poker because
00:05:44
what you said is if Dave were alive he
00:05:46
would have taught them to play poker and
00:05:47
last night on the 9th anniversary of his
00:05:49
loss my kids were in that room playing
00:05:52
poker and that is very much to your
00:05:54
credit shth and I will always always be
00:05:57
grateful for that and grateful Jason
00:06:00
David and all of us for for Dave um so
00:06:05
the world lost something really big when
00:06:07
we lost Dave and I think a lot of people
00:06:09
know a lot of the things we lost I lost
00:06:11
an amazing husband and father to my
00:06:14
children you all lost a best friend the
00:06:17
world lost a lot of wisdom but there's
00:06:19
actually one thing that the world also
00:06:21
lost that we've never shared and I'm
00:06:24
prepared to reveal right now right here
00:06:27
right now because last night Rob gold
00:06:29
Dave's brother and I decided we decided
00:06:33
it was time to share people may have
00:06:36
known there was a fake
00:06:38
chth Twitter handle I built Facebook
00:06:40
Rock the angel world and now on the
00:06:42
Warriors my motto don't be a dag that's
00:06:44
my job and people have questioned who
00:06:46
this was I mean some people think it was
00:06:48
Jason calana some people think it was
00:06:51
Choice all right I got to say some
00:06:53
people think it was trath
00:06:55
himself but you know what number one
00:06:57
choice yeah the number one choice yeah
00:06:59
was fake
00:07:00
jam now he didn't write all the tweets
00:07:02
himself I know all of you helped him but
00:07:04
he wrote a bunch of them and he used to
00:07:06
literally lie in bed next to me write
00:07:08
something and just big Bell remember
00:07:11
Dave's big laugh he would laugh out loud
00:07:14
God and there are so many things the
00:07:15
world lost but can you guys imagine the
00:07:17
field day Dave AKA fake chth would be
00:07:21
having with this podcast oh my God fi
00:07:23
day a field day field day fi day all
00:07:27
you'd have to do is just take excerpts
00:07:29
from the show put on Twitter I mean it's
00:07:32
one of the great things about the the
00:07:34
great challenge I
00:07:35
remember workshopping some tweets here
00:07:38
with Dave with Goldie and the the the
00:07:41
the big laugh we would have and David
00:07:43
Lee from The Warriors was involved in
00:07:45
this mug I mean we just had like a whole
00:07:47
group who lived to write these tweets
00:07:49
and sometimes chat's
00:07:51
tweets were so insane and
00:07:55
deranged that we couldn't top them so we
00:07:59
tried come on like this one from fake
00:08:01
Shaman pin is the new hot company this
00:08:04
is a great one Pinterest is a new hot
00:08:06
company in the valley I don't understand
00:08:09
why a site for girls with cats is worth
00:08:11
300 million now that's something that
00:08:13
would be a benign tweet from
00:08:16
really here's a great one from October
00:08:19
29th 2011 lot of demand for me to appear
00:08:22
in commercials like others but I am
00:08:24
holding out for Cartier Mercedes is
00:08:26
beneath me I mean this predated
00:08:30
Laura Pi Laura Piana yeah free you got
00:08:33
this next one give us this next there is
00:08:34
a Laura Piana one in there yeah yeah
00:08:36
reason number 756 to go to Vegas no
00:08:39
sales tax on Laura Piana this was in
00:08:42
2012 by the way very precious if you
00:08:44
dress like me I won't initially think
00:08:46
you are a dbag and there's no way Dave
00:08:49
know what Laura piano was there's no way
00:08:51
Dave wrote this someone else wrote this
00:08:52
one for sure absolutely who was thee of
00:08:54
the time on Laura Piana at that time
00:08:56
very good I mean it's just incredible
00:08:58
people think theur thing is like recent
00:09:00
history it was 12 years ago I mean this
00:09:03
is when I Meer before we get
00:09:05
started cherl should read that last one
00:09:08
that's really good all right Char you
00:09:09
get the last
00:09:10
one my newest investment is so good jet
00:09:13
time you can random video chat with
00:09:15
other people who are also on their
00:09:17
private chat G55 to Hawker yeah Dave
00:09:21
Dave loved this group of friends and he
00:09:23
loved being faked jth yeah loved it
00:09:26
anyway the secrets out the secrets out
00:09:29
guess is that s that that Twitter handle
00:09:31
is about to get popular again it's gonna
00:09:33
get pretty popular and I will just say
00:09:35
as much as they've loved being fake shth
00:09:38
he he could it's like half the amount
00:09:40
chamath loves being at chth so
00:09:43
keep let's just keep that in mind here
00:09:46
folks oh my God I haven't cried oh my go
00:09:49
and laughed so hard in five minutes as I
00:09:52
did just now I mean actually in some way
00:09:54
Cheryl you're you're you're our fifth
00:09:57
bestie as well you're always welcome to
00:09:58
come on the
00:10:00
and I I just also for a little bit of
00:10:01
housekeeping here when guests come on
00:10:02
this podcast we don't prevent questions
00:10:05
no questions are off limits and nobody
00:10:07
gets to strike or or do anything
00:10:08
nonsensical uh with the product
00:10:11
everybody comes here to we're not
00:10:12
journalists we're not we're not
00:10:14
journalists we're not traditional
00:10:15
journalists we're friends talking trying
00:10:16
to understand stuff and just to be clear
00:10:19
I know a lot of commentary comes back
00:10:21
well why didn't you say this or ask this
00:10:23
and you know I I think we're just when
00:10:24
we have guests on we just want to talk
00:10:26
with them like we would in a living room
00:10:28
and have a conversation so right which
00:10:30
means no gotcha journalism although I'll
00:10:32
ask a tough question once in a while
00:10:34
that may get me in a little bit of
00:10:36
trouble but David freberg you um set
00:10:39
this all up and and I know you and
00:10:40
Cheryl have been talking about these
00:10:42
important issues and of course we're
00:10:44
going to have all sides on so you don't
00:10:46
have to email me and and say what about
00:10:49
this side what about that side all sides
00:10:50
are welcome to come on the Pod but
00:10:52
freeberg why why don't you kick us off
00:10:53
here we're going to talk about this
00:10:54
important film uh and a lot of the
00:10:57
debates going on about this horrific
00:11:00
attack on October 7th and and then
00:11:01
what's going on in Gaza today but then
00:11:04
we also are going to try to make that
00:11:06
hard pivot to business and get some of
00:11:07
Cheryl's insights on what's happening in
00:11:09
the world today of business so freeberg
00:11:11
why don't you kick us off well I just
00:11:12
want to zoom out because I think Cheryl
00:11:14
um we had I I believe a couple of
00:11:19
conversations after October
00:11:21
7th amongst other folks I've heard
00:11:26
that there's been a lot of
00:11:28
disappointment that institutions
00:11:30
organizations ideologies that have been
00:11:33
supported by folks like yourself or
00:11:36
maybe you can speak I don't want to put
00:11:37
words in your
00:11:38
mouth suddenly emerged to be something
00:11:41
quite different
00:11:43
when threads of anti-Semitism started to
00:11:45
emerge and folks began to deny certain
00:11:50
things based on their ideology about the
00:11:55
oppressor
00:11:57
oppressed concept being applied to
00:12:00
Israel and Palestine and and maybe you
00:12:03
can tell us a little bit about the
00:12:05
surprise and journey that you've been
00:12:06
through since October 7th with respect
00:12:09
to some of the groups that you've
00:12:10
supported that suddenly seem quite
00:12:12
different than what maybe we all thought
00:12:13
they
00:12:14
were prior look it's a great question
00:12:17
because I mean sorry and that's the
00:12:20
conversation Cheryl and I have been
00:12:21
having that led to saying hey why don't
00:12:23
you come on the show this week and let's
00:12:25
talk about this and and other topics
00:12:26
particularly given the timing with the
00:12:28
release the
00:12:30
film it's a great question I mean if you
00:12:32
had told me on October 6th the following
00:12:35
is going to happen terrorists are going
00:12:37
to parachute into Israel they are going
00:12:40
to kill 12200 people they are going to
00:12:43
sexually brutalize brutalize and rape
00:12:47
multiple women and
00:12:49
men I would have said you're crazy then
00:12:52
if you would have told me that people
00:12:54
were going to deny the reports were
00:12:56
going to start coming out people were
00:12:57
going to say I'm a first responder I saw
00:12:59
naked bodies I saw women
00:13:01
bloodied leg spread but then people were
00:13:04
going to deny that this happened I would
00:13:07
have said you were crazy and then if you
00:13:08
had told me that what we would be doing
00:13:10
on college campuses is not protesting
00:13:13
sexual violence as a tool of War by the
00:13:16
hands of Hamas Hamas misogynistic
00:13:20
homophobic terrorists who are right now
00:13:23
holding not just Israelis but Americans
00:13:25
hostage yet we would be protesting and
00:13:28
college kids would be screaming we are
00:13:30
Hamas I would have said you were crazy
00:13:33
and that's Hit me hard and for me as a
00:13:35
woman as a very outspoken feminist it's
00:13:38
all hard but the part that has hit me
00:13:39
the hardest is the denial of the sexual
00:13:42
violence that has just been horrible and
00:13:46
so the reports were coming out in
00:13:48
November I wrote an oped and what my
00:13:50
oped said was no matter what you believe
00:13:52
should happen in the Middle East I
00:13:53
believe in a two-state solution no
00:13:55
matter what flag you're flying March
00:13:57
you're going to you can all be United on
00:14:00
one thing which is sexual violence
00:14:02
should never be used as a tool of War
00:14:04
then I did a video that went pretty
00:14:07
viral but people are denying it and
00:14:09
they're attacking articles and attacking
00:14:12
reports and so I went to Israel and I
00:14:15
sat down myself with a video crew this
00:14:19
was generously financed by this great
00:14:22
philanthropist Joey low and his wife and
00:14:25
I sat down there and I asked people what
00:14:28
did you see
00:14:29
with your own
00:14:30
eyes we sat down with a released hostage
00:14:33
who told her
00:14:35
story and this is because people are
00:14:38
actually denying or ignoring
00:14:41
this and that is a horrible place for us
00:14:44
to be and truly shocking truly shocking
00:14:48
let's double click into that word denial
00:14:51
so it's a very heightened moment
00:14:54
everybody is taking sides everybody's
00:14:56
trying to interpret what they think
00:14:59
think is the right point of view whether
00:15:00
it's in that moment or historically in
00:15:03
the Arc of how Israel and Palestine have
00:15:06
been in
00:15:07
Conflict where does that aspect of
00:15:10
denial come from have you have you spent
00:15:12
time trying to unpack like how do you
00:15:15
start to get to a place where you say
00:15:17
clearly people were killed but then when
00:15:19
it goes
00:15:20
into war crimes and sexual violence
00:15:23
we're actually going to stop it there
00:15:25
because it basically pulls our cause
00:15:27
back so we can't agree that that
00:15:30
actually happened how how does that
00:15:32
happen why is that happening I mean
00:15:34
you're framing it exactly right shamat
00:15:36
that's exactly what happened so I mean
00:15:38
you all talk about this a lot but
00:15:39
there's huge polarization what does that
00:15:41
mean polarization means I have a view
00:15:43
that is so firmly entrenched that I see
00:15:46
the word as black and white everything
00:15:47
has to fit into my view and my narrative
00:15:49
and when it doesn't fit I don't know
00:15:51
what to do so I reject it and that's I
00:15:53
think what's happening that there is
00:15:55
there are people out there who believe
00:15:57
that October 7th was resistance I want
00:15:59
to be clear I'm not that person I do not
00:16:01
believe that I'm horrified by what's
00:16:03
happening in Gaza every life lost is too
00:16:05
much I want two states living peacefully
00:16:09
beside each other I really want that but
00:16:12
let's say you think October 7th was
00:16:15
resistance then all of a sudden you're
00:16:17
like wait a
00:16:18
second Mass
00:16:21
rape genital mutilation of men and women
00:16:25
women and
00:16:26
men women tied to Tre trees naked bloody
00:16:30
leg spread that doesn't fit your
00:16:31
narrative so what can you do you can wow
00:16:33
think maybe The World Isn't So black and
00:16:35
white maybe I have to rethink my
00:16:37
narrative or you can say this didn't
00:16:40
happen and I think it is a travesty and
00:16:43
a tragedy that anyone could say that and
00:16:46
I want to be clear Jason you started
00:16:47
this by saying you always have positions
00:16:50
you always give people room for two
00:16:52
sides and that's fantastic I think there
00:16:54
are not just two sides multiple sides to
00:16:56
the Middle East story multiple sides to
00:16:58
the history multiple sides what's been
00:17:00
going on there are not two sides on this
00:17:03
this is sexual violence there is one
00:17:06
side one side and we are against it and
00:17:08
that's relatively new in the world to
00:17:10
take you back quick history lesson which
00:17:12
you all know but I'd love for all your
00:17:13
viewers to
00:17:14
know for a long time the history of
00:17:17
mankind women's bodies were part of War
00:17:20
you got the village you got the gold you
00:17:22
got the women and it was only 30 years
00:17:24
ago after the mass rapes of the DRC
00:17:26
Bosnia the former Yugoslavia that people
00:17:29
said no rape is not a tool of War we
00:17:33
will prosecute it as a war crime and a
00:17:35
crime against humanity and the feminist
00:17:38
groups were the ones who made that
00:17:39
happen the civil rights groups the human
00:17:41
rights
00:17:41
groups they've held since then in this
00:17:44
moment if our politics drive us to give
00:17:46
that up think about what we give up
00:17:48
because as we're doing this podcast
00:17:50
right now there are hostages in Gaza
00:17:54
that we know are being sexually
00:17:55
assaulted there are women in Ukraine
00:17:58
Sudan Ethiopia around the world who are
00:18:00
being sexually assaulted right now right
00:18:03
now and we can't let that go this is the
00:18:07
one place we need to be United why are
00:18:10
the feminist groups finding themselves
00:18:13
aligning more with Hamas than they are
00:18:17
with this core what seems to be and
00:18:19
should be a core
00:18:21
ideology so look we can't paint them all
00:18:23
with one brush there are feminist groups
00:18:25
that have spoken out on this that have
00:18:26
said you know
00:18:30
now did it the new Nal did it they said
00:18:32
we are against the sexual violence care
00:18:35
did it there are groups that have done
00:18:36
it no matter what else they're working
00:18:38
on a bunch of them have said to me
00:18:40
privately I I know you're right of
00:18:42
course sexual violence isn't okay and of
00:18:44
course this happened but I can't speak
00:18:46
out because all my employees are going
00:18:47
to get upset I can't speak out because
00:18:49
the young people and that makes me
00:18:51
really sad but explain that what does
00:18:53
that mean young people will be upset to
00:18:55
know that that both things happen
00:18:59
you've got to be able to hold two
00:19:01
thoughts at the same time again not my
00:19:03
thought but if you believe October 7th
00:19:05
is resistant you can still believe
00:19:07
sexual violence happened the fact that a
00:19:09
group of feminists none I'm particularly
00:19:13
close to have actually signed letters
00:19:14
saying this didn't happen is crazy
00:19:19
absolutely crazy I mean look I'm going
00:19:21
to read this the UN special
00:19:22
representative on sexual violence prila
00:19:24
Patton traveled to Israel and here is
00:19:26
what she wrote she said Witness
00:19:28
eyewitnessed in Israel were scenes of
00:19:30
unspeakable violence perpetrated with
00:19:32
shocking brutality catalog of the most
00:19:34
extreme and inhumane forms of killing
00:19:36
torture and other Horrors including
00:19:38
sexual violence that's the UN they're
00:19:41
not exactly a pro-israel
00:19:44
group Cheryl let me ask because I I
00:19:46
think it's important to note some people
00:19:48
will counter and say look at this
00:19:50
article from gry Zone greyzone said
00:19:52
Western media concocts evidence that the
00:19:55
UN report on October 7th sex crimes
00:19:57
failed to deliver from March 7th they
00:19:59
said Western media promoted a un report
00:20:02
as proof homosexually assaulted Israelis
00:20:04
yet the reports authors admitted they
00:20:06
couldn't locate a single victim
00:20:08
suggested Israeli officials staged a
00:20:09
rape scene and denounced inaccurate
00:20:11
forensic interpretations I just want to
00:20:13
give you an opportunity to respond to
00:20:14
Grey zon's article because I think a lot
00:20:16
of folks have pointed to that article
00:20:19
and the articles that that organization
00:20:21
has put out as being representative of
00:20:24
an alternative view that the sexual
00:20:26
violence may maybe didn't happen as
00:20:28
evidence in your film maybe you can
00:20:29
address it give you a chance to do that
00:20:31
yeah well The key thing you said there
00:20:33
is where are the they're asking where
00:20:35
are the victims well let me tell you
00:20:36
where the victims are they're dead
00:20:39
they're dead that is why we called this
00:20:42
film sorry screams before silence I have
00:20:46
a story in this film this woman tally I
00:20:49
went with her to the trailer where she
00:20:51
hid she was at the Nova Film Festival
00:20:53
she's a nurse she hid in a
00:20:55
trailer I walked in with her to that
00:20:57
trailer the first time she'd been in
00:20:58
there and you could see her body like
00:21:00
shake and she we didn't this didn't make
00:21:02
the final cut of the film but she picked
00:21:03
up a black sweater and I think she might
00:21:05
have been wearing that sweater I was
00:21:06
afraid to ask her but she was like
00:21:08
shaking she hid in that trailer for I
00:21:10
don't know five six seven hours and she
00:21:12
heard sometimes she would hear like a
00:21:15
little scream like ah someone's pointing
00:21:16
a gun at you in a shot but sometimes she
00:21:19
would heard scream over and over and
00:21:20
over stop
00:21:24
stop and then for like a long period
00:21:27
like 15 minutes and then a shot and then
00:21:29
when she got out of that
00:21:31
trailer they were naked bodies where she
00:21:34
heard those
00:21:36
screams the victims are dead most of
00:21:39
them are dead there is exactly one
00:21:41
person who has an escaped to a released
00:21:43
hostage her name is amet Sana she gave a
00:21:45
video interview you all saw it we have
00:21:47
the only video interview in this
00:21:49
documentary and she tells her story very
00:21:51
clearly she was held hostage for months
00:21:54
she was chained to a bed and as she said
00:21:57
it he her C forced him to do a commit a
00:22:00
sexual act on her this woman is so brave
00:22:04
and she told me she's speaking out
00:22:07
because there are still hostages there
00:22:08
but she is the only living witness who
00:22:10
speak out we think there are a few more
00:22:13
who are in deep trauma but there were
00:22:15
1,00 people killed and at least dozens
00:22:19
of them were sexually brutalized
00:22:22
assaulted and that is why they're not
00:22:24
speaking out just as a followup what is
00:22:26
the social and political motivation of a
00:22:28
group likey Zone and other appointed
00:22:31
deniers what are they trying to
00:22:32
accomplish by denying they're trying to
00:22:35
accomplish their narrative that October
00:22:37
7th was justified
00:22:39
resistance because even they understand
00:22:43
that it is not because the sexual
00:22:45
violence taints it in a way right as
00:22:47
opposed to just being soldiers killing
00:22:48
Soldiers the sexual violence aspect of
00:22:51
it taints the Valor of the resistance is
00:22:54
that a fair way to summarize it even
00:22:57
they don't believe and it's interesting
00:22:58
saying Hamas has been proudly talking
00:23:02
about who they killed but even they deny
00:23:04
the sexual violence that wouldn't happen
00:23:05
it's against our religion the sexual
00:23:08
violence doesn't fit the narrative but I
00:23:11
want to be clear the sexual violence was
00:23:13
multiple locations
00:23:15
systematic meets the definition of a war
00:23:18
crime a crime against humanity and was
00:23:20
part of the plan if there was no sexual
00:23:23
violence would it be fair to call it a
00:23:25
resistance I would not call it a
00:23:27
resistance
00:23:29
one of the things that happened after
00:23:31
the
00:23:32
Holocaust was there was still a small
00:23:34
coh of people that denied that it ever
00:23:37
happened and I think that there was to
00:23:39
use the word systematic again a
00:23:42
systematic effort to
00:23:44
document right there's pictures there's
00:23:47
museums there's
00:23:49
memorials you can think what you want of
00:23:52
World War II or Jews in general but you
00:23:54
can't deny that that happened and the
00:23:57
documentation of it
00:23:59
is pretty unambiguous or completely
00:24:02
unambiguous when you spend time there is
00:24:05
there an effort to start doing this and
00:24:06
here's where I'm getting to which is
00:24:08
kind of a morbid question but there's a
00:24:09
moment in this documentary where this
00:24:13
woman who was the doctorine the morg I
00:24:15
guess is talking about all of these
00:24:17
bodies and unfortunately where my mind
00:24:20
went to but I think it's the kind of the
00:24:23
right thought is I hope that there
00:24:25
was rape kits done even if it's
00:24:29
poly because that's the trail of
00:24:32
evidence that allows one to
00:24:34
know squarely inside of a box this is
00:24:38
the totality of what happened as a
00:24:40
learning lesson for everybody including
00:24:43
not just the people that disagree but
00:24:44
the people that agree and then to
00:24:46
reinforce some of these basic rights
00:24:47
that we thought we've all signed up for
00:24:50
I mean it is such an important question
00:24:52
there were not rape kids done 1,200
00:24:55
people killed in one day I don't anyone
00:24:57
was people they wats were burned people
00:24:59
were trying to identify them I've
00:25:01
actually looked into this a bunch and in
00:25:02
a lot of sexual violence in war
00:25:04
situations there are no rape kits so
00:25:06
that's actually sometimes they're used
00:25:07
but often in chaos there is
00:25:10
none there are very few pictures there
00:25:13
are some and I saw them in this
00:25:14
documentary and they
00:25:17
are sorry they
00:25:20
are naked women with nails and they're
00:25:23
groin
00:25:24
like I'm sorry I saw these pictures but
00:25:27
what's interesting interesting about it
00:25:29
is the people who are the First
00:25:30
Responders are taught not to take
00:25:32
pictures particular particularly of
00:25:35
gruesome things they don't have the
00:25:36
victims the victims you know victims
00:25:40
rights yeah but the man I interviewed he
00:25:43
said 24 hours in he thought to himself
00:25:46
no one's going to believe this I got to
00:25:47
take pictures and against the training
00:25:49
he had he took the pictures and he
00:25:51
showed me on his phone he was like I
00:25:53
took this and another guy from zaka
00:25:55
they're a first responder group that
00:25:56
goes in
00:25:58
this is an unheard of situation I mean I
00:26:02
said to him you've been processing sorry
00:26:04
maybe that's not the right word you've
00:26:05
been I guess processing dead bodies all
00:26:07
over the
00:26:08
world how many times in your experience
00:26:11
are they naked and he just looked at me
00:26:13
and said never they're never naked and
00:26:16
what meets the legal criteria for
00:26:19
proving crimes against humanity are
00:26:22
witnesses eyewitnesses and what's
00:26:24
important about the
00:26:25
documentary that we did but also
00:26:27
important about the efforts Israel is
00:26:29
doing Israel is doing that documentation
00:26:32
not Israel the country a woman in Israel
00:26:34
named kav leevy who's fantastic she is
00:26:37
from a private university with private
00:26:39
funding doing that documentation which
00:26:42
at this point are mostly considered of
00:26:45
interviews but there are hundreds of
00:26:48
them and look I hope people watch in the
00:26:50
documentary I go into a field with this
00:26:52
guy Ramy I'm sure you guys remember this
00:26:55
he because he's huge right he yeah huge
00:26:57
he like this tall over me private
00:27:01
citizen this guy is the biggest hero
00:27:02
I've ever met in my life Sirens go off
00:27:04
he gets into his car takes his gun and
00:27:08
drives to where incredible bravery
00:27:11
rescued hundreds of people
00:27:14
himself
00:27:16
himself but he got to a field and I
00:27:18
stood in those trees and he said these
00:27:21
trees he thinks about 30 women were
00:27:23
there and raped or sexually brutalized
00:27:24
when he saw them they were naked tied to
00:27:28
Tre his legs readed blooded like
00:27:30
bloodied in the regions you would be
00:27:32
bloody if you were
00:27:33
raped and he what he said in the film is
00:27:36
I got there I covered their bodies so no
00:27:38
one else would see he didn't take
00:27:40
pictures I wish he had but well I I
00:27:43
guess I don't know do I wish he had I
00:27:44
don't know but you understand why but he
00:27:48
said I saw this with my own eyes and
00:27:50
what you saw in the film is this huge
00:27:52
man who's so brave fought terrorists
00:27:55
himself crying CU he didn't get there
00:27:56
early enough to save those Wom women but
00:27:58
the good news is while the victims were
00:28:01
killed the good news is the First
00:28:03
Responders are alive and their testimony
00:28:06
which as eyewitness testimony meets the
00:28:08
criteria of any International or or
00:28:10
Global Court absolutely crimes can be
00:28:14
proven by I by by eyewitnesses for sure
00:28:17
sure what is the response what is the
00:28:20
response in
00:28:21
Israel how do you how do you judge what
00:28:24
Netanyahu is doing both in reaction to
00:28:27
the events but then in reaction to these
00:28:31
specific aspects of the events what are
00:28:33
they
00:28:34
doing that's different or what would you
00:28:37
wish they were doing differently or can
00:28:38
you just give us a sense of how people
00:28:40
are processing this
00:28:43
aspect I mean look we need peace we need
00:28:48
two sides and two leaders that are
00:28:50
committed to peace like long-term peace
00:28:53
and there's a lot going wrong you know
00:28:56
but on this aspect
00:28:59
you violate someone said it in the film
00:29:00
you violate a woman you violate a
00:29:02
country there's a reason sexual violence
00:29:05
is used as a war crime there's a reason
00:29:08
it was used in the DRC and Bosnia and
00:29:10
it's being used in Ukraine today because
00:29:12
and I can see it in your reaction I mean
00:29:14
to humiliate it's to humiliate a people
00:29:16
right it's to humiliate a country right
00:29:18
you humiliate look at look at the three
00:29:20
of you like you all don't cry a lot like
00:29:24
this is traumatic because you all have
00:29:26
mothers and daughters like you can feel
00:29:30
what happens to a country and that's why
00:29:32
this was done this was not an accident
00:29:35
this was on purpose and unfortunately it
00:29:39
works sexual violence I I I think I
00:29:42
think a like for us to have a path
00:29:46
towards peace there has to be a
00:29:48
degree despite the pain being felt a
00:29:53
degree of empathy for the other side's
00:29:56
desires the other side's pain the other
00:29:59
side's feeling that they were enacting a
00:30:03
resistance against an oppression how
00:30:05
does one side Embrace that aspect having
00:30:08
gone through this how how do we get to a
00:30:11
point that a people can say I have
00:30:14
empathy for the resistance after feeling
00:30:18
this sort of pain and this is the
00:30:19
age-old story of War I for an ey it
00:30:22
never ends it always goes on what's the
00:30:25
right path here to hear the other side
00:30:28
to hear the kids on campuses to hear the
00:30:30
the people in Palestine uh to hear the
00:30:34
the world saying we feel free Palestine
00:30:38
um after going through this well I can
00:30:41
tell you what I believe I believe we
00:30:43
need peace I believe we need two states
00:30:45
I believe that those States need to be
00:30:47
run by peaceful leaders who want
00:30:49
prosperity for the other side look I
00:30:52
believe we should be able to look at
00:30:53
anyone anywhere in the world but
00:30:55
certainly the Palestinian people living
00:30:58
in Gaza and say any death is too much
00:31:01
one death is too much no innocent lives
00:31:03
should be killed no women no children no
00:31:05
innocent lives should be
00:31:07
killed but I think also as part of that
00:31:09
path to peace there needs to be
00:31:11
forgiveness but there needs to be a
00:31:15
clear clear articulation of what is not
00:31:18
acceptable ever and the sexual violence
00:31:22
is not acceptable ever if you were if
00:31:25
you were Netanyahu what would you do
00:31:27
differently sorry for cutting you off no
00:31:29
no I mean I don't have an answer to
00:31:31
peace in the Middle East I don't I mean
00:31:33
I wish I did but I do have a very strong
00:31:36
view that we are not going to get to
00:31:39
peace when we are apologizing or denying
00:31:42
crimes against humanity and crime Mass
00:31:43
rape of women well that is not the path
00:31:46
to peace the path to peace is not saying
00:31:48
this didn't happen the path to peace is
00:31:50
saying this happened no matter what side
00:31:53
of the fence you're on no matter what
00:31:54
side of the world you're on if you're
00:31:55
the far right the far left anywhere on
00:31:57
the world we're not going to let this
00:31:59
happen again and we're going to get to
00:32:00
peace to make sure denial is not going
00:32:03
to get us there why has the other side
00:32:05
captivated so much of the youth in the
00:32:07
United States what you're very close to
00:32:09
Harvard maybe tell us what's gone on at
00:32:10
Harvard over the last few years how did
00:32:12
we end up in this place where so much of
00:32:14
the youth is so
00:32:16
sympathetic to the Palestinian
00:32:18
cause and not as moved as you are um by
00:32:22
the trauma experienced on the other
00:32:24
side I mean y'all are I would throw that
00:32:27
question right back to I know you've
00:32:28
talked about you know narratives and
00:32:30
oppressor and oppressed and again
00:32:33
polarization is where you can only have
00:32:36
one View and you cannot tolerate
00:32:39
anything that doesn't fit one View and I
00:32:41
don't know of anything that's that clear
00:32:43
and that simple I mean I'll throw that
00:32:45
right back to you you all have been
00:32:46
articulate on this and I think have a
00:32:48
lot to say well I mean this you said it
00:32:50
earlier Cheryl this tolerance for
00:32:53
ambiguity this ability the cognitive
00:32:55
dissonance to be able to hold in your
00:32:57
head
00:32:58
that the people of Gaza are suffering
00:33:00
perhaps I guess the other side would say
00:33:02
you know they would they would start
00:33:03
down this whataboutism it's not my
00:33:05
position but what about what Netanyahu
00:33:07
is doing what about Aid to people
00:33:10
suffering Gaza you've addressed that you
00:33:11
don't believe anybody should suffer but
00:33:13
I just want to talk a little bit about
00:33:16
this conspiracy theory that it didn't
00:33:20
happen also in the
00:33:23
documentary The
00:33:25
savagery you chose not to show the
00:33:28
graphic photos that uh you saw and that
00:33:32
you're clearly traumatized by and uh a
00:33:35
lot of us New Yorkers had a similar
00:33:37
experience with 911 and watching that up
00:33:39
close it is what terrorists do
00:33:41
terrorists do these things to cause
00:33:42
massive trauma to make it impossible to
00:33:45
deescalate that is the sadism that is
00:33:48
the pure evil of of of this brand of
00:33:50
terrorism is to make it impossible for
00:33:53
the good people of the world to unwind
00:33:56
or or deescalate and and it's I think
00:33:59
part of the process is accepting what
00:34:02
happened and and coming to some truth
00:34:05
and the truth can be there are people
00:34:07
dying unnecessarily in Gaza there are
00:34:08
people starving in Gaza there are
00:34:10
children who are not getting food and
00:34:12
water all of those can be true and this
00:34:15
horrific sexual uh sadism and violence
00:34:17
that occurred is also
00:34:20
true you and in that was awesome I
00:34:23
couldn't have said that better that that
00:34:25
was exactly right Jason that is exactly
00:34:28
the point and the path sorry please
00:34:30
continue that was I mean I'm I'm trying
00:34:32
to make sense of this I I and I and I
00:34:34
come to it with humility you know uh you
00:34:37
know this podcast you know hits certain
00:34:39
notes with people and oh how can people
00:34:41
in Silicon Valley or whatever discuss
00:34:43
these topics listen we're all discussing
00:34:45
them we're all trying to make sense of
00:34:46
of a very confusing world but you made
00:34:49
two choices in the documentary one was
00:34:51
to leave yourself out of it largely your
00:34:53
role in the documentary is you know to
00:34:56
hug people and and to cry onside them
00:34:58
and to witness the stuff you talk for I
00:35:00
think 90 seconds in the whole
00:35:01
documentary I think this was a an
00:35:03
important decision you made and then you
00:35:05
made a decision which I'm not sure if I
00:35:07
agree with which is to not show the
00:35:09
photos I am of the belief that people
00:35:13
should see what happened on 911 as a New
00:35:14
Yorker who witnessed it and my brother's
00:35:16
in the power department and I had PTSD
00:35:18
from it I think people have to see these
00:35:20
things you chose not to out of respect
00:35:22
for the family should put a note at the
00:35:25
end explain this choice because I know
00:35:27
you must have struggled with it and
00:35:29
there are photos that you've seen of
00:35:32
women with their breast cut off I hate I
00:35:34
I don't want to say these things I know
00:35:35
it's very traumatic but I believe people
00:35:37
have to understand what's in these
00:35:38
photos that you saw Nails in women's
00:35:42
private parts breasts that have been cut
00:35:44
off this is undeniable if you want to
00:35:46
deny the rapes happened or whatever you
00:35:48
cannot deny the photos that you
00:35:50
saw he chose not to put them in I
00:35:53
understand that decision respect for the
00:35:54
family is there not a take us into that
00:35:57
decision because maybe there's a maybe
00:36:00
you need
00:36:01
to and the and and the woman who who
00:36:04
chose to do the interview with you she's
00:36:05
so brave she said I had to do this
00:36:08
because I wanted to combat the denialism
00:36:10
and I don't know who the gry zone is you
00:36:12
know the the I don't know why people are
00:36:14
giving it a ton of attention but they
00:36:15
you know they are considered the first
00:36:17
line the Wikipedia page is it's a fringe
00:36:19
website so just leave it at that I don't
00:36:20
know if it is or if it isn't but that
00:36:21
that's the first one on the Wikipedia
00:36:23
pitch is there not a case to be made for
00:36:27
making a version of the documentary that
00:36:30
shows exactly these things so people can
00:36:32
stop denying it because then they you
00:36:33
would have to come to the place that
00:36:36
these that the people who are one-sided
00:36:39
created fake images well that's is that
00:36:42
is that where we're we're getting to in
00:36:44
this conspiracy filled world that the
00:36:47
dozens of people you interviewed are
00:36:50
part of a grand conspiracy and the
00:36:51
photos are doctored so just talk about
00:36:54
that decision you you must have had an
00:36:56
important meeting uh about about
00:36:58
that look we didn't really have a choice
00:37:02
I agree with you I think the world
00:37:04
seeing this would probably be necessary
00:37:08
at some point I do think the deniers
00:37:10
will deny they'll say oh you can doctor
00:37:11
any
00:37:13
photo so you're going to have to believe
00:37:15
the person who took them anyway we
00:37:16
didn't have that choice these photos are
00:37:19
held by people who have taken a vow as
00:37:23
part of their work as First Responders
00:37:25
of processing and getting bodies ready
00:37:27
for burial
00:37:28
that they won't show them it also you
00:37:31
know we've made this freely available on
00:37:33
YouTube so anyone can watch it no fire
00:37:35
walls you know anyone can watch this
00:37:37
thing if you're over
00:37:39
18 it wouldn't make YouTube standards so
00:37:42
that would be taken down I mean we we
00:37:43
can't show them right now for those two
00:37:45
reasons but I think over time we the
00:37:48
world may have to see some of them but I
00:37:50
also want to go back to what shamat said
00:37:52
because there are not that there are
00:37:53
photos there are clear photos and there
00:37:55
are clear Witnesses but story he took no
00:37:58
photos and he will tell you why he took
00:38:00
no photos he covered those bodies so no
00:38:03
one would see yeah so it's traumatic and
00:38:07
and and that's why Israel is documenting
00:38:09
this or not Israel actually I shouldn't
00:38:11
say it someone in Israel is documenting
00:38:13
this but again no matter what else you
00:38:16
believe I love the way you said it Jason
00:38:18
you can absolutely believe I absolutely
00:38:21
believe that every single person
00:38:24
particularly the private citizens not
00:38:26
the terrorists in Gaza should live in
00:38:29
peace and Harmony they they should of
00:38:30
course get aid but they shouldn't need
00:38:32
Aid because they should have a thriving
00:38:34
economy and a state that's their
00:38:37
own that doesn't mean sexual violence
00:38:40
didn't happen because it is clear it did
00:38:42
and the denial is crazy I was in France
00:38:44
I did a I took some of the witnesses to
00:38:47
to different parliaments including in
00:38:49
the French Parliament and um Maurice
00:38:52
Levy hosted this beautiful lunch for us
00:38:55
and there were all the people who work
00:38:57
in civil society and this woman stood up
00:38:58
at this lunch and she stood up and she
00:39:00
said I'm French I'm not Jewish I run a
00:39:04
nonprofit that works on sexual violence
00:39:06
and conflict I've done this work for 30
00:39:09
years no one's ever questioned my work
00:39:13
ever until now and she said I think it's
00:39:17
anti-Semitism you look at that New York
00:39:19
Times article and I know there's
00:39:21
different views of the New York Times
00:39:22
I'm not defending the paper but that
00:39:24
article written by Jeff Gelman and
00:39:26
others he has covered sexual violence
00:39:29
for decades he want a Pitzer for his
00:39:31
coverage of this in Somalia a Pitzer I
00:39:35
did a search no one's ever questioned it
00:39:38
before something is going on here and it
00:39:40
is a combination of narratives and
00:39:42
polarization and
00:39:44
anti-Semitism which is getting us to a
00:39:46
place where we lose yeah sorry let's
00:39:49
explore that for a second so when you
00:39:51
see the videos what you
00:39:53
see are young people but you see a lot
00:39:57
of young women and many of the leaders
00:40:00
of
00:40:01
these of these movements on campuses now
00:40:05
the spokes people are women the
00:40:06
leadership seems mostly to be
00:40:10
women do you have a reaction to that do
00:40:12
you have a thought on that when you see
00:40:14
these folks and that that they should be
00:40:17
closer to this realization maybe than a
00:40:21
man could theoretically Overlook it or
00:40:24
try to block it out but it's actually
00:40:27
the leadership of these organizations
00:40:28
tend to be mostly women L and they're
00:40:30
basically like let's keep going and it's
00:40:32
about this resistance how do you react
00:40:34
to that when you see that it really
00:40:36
depends what I see like when I see
00:40:38
someone peacefully protesting and saying
00:40:40
free Palestine sure why not that's
00:40:43
that's good I want free Palestine when I
00:40:46
see people protesting and saying you
00:40:49
know we need peace on all sides we need
00:40:51
a ceasefire of course we need we need a
00:40:54
permanent ceasefire that lasts I'm for
00:40:55
that ready when I see people saying the
00:40:58
rapes didn't happen that's unacceptable
00:41:02
you know you saw a student at Colombia I
00:41:03
saw it in video I'm sure you did too
00:41:05
screaming at a Jewish kid go back to
00:41:08
Poland right I saw or October 7th's
00:41:12
going to happen to you over and over
00:41:13
that's not okay and so it really depends
00:41:16
what they're saying but again I'm hoping
00:41:18
people watch this documentary so they
00:41:20
can see it for their own eyes I'm hoping
00:41:22
people wake up and realize that they are
00:41:25
capable of holding two thoughts at the
00:41:26
same time they just are what's going to
00:41:28
happen at Harvard what's going to happen
00:41:30
at the IV leagues I don't know what's
00:41:32
going to happen at any of these schools
00:41:33
but I'll tell you I'm a parent of
00:41:36
college age kids you know I've got a kid
00:41:39
who was in college for a year I've got a
00:41:41
kid going off this year in the fall
00:41:43
colleges have a responsibility to keep
00:41:45
our kids safe full stop and protect them
00:41:49
from hate full stop and they have the
00:41:52
ability to do this they have the ability
00:41:55
to do this it's up to them do you think
00:41:57
Colombia has done a good job well if you
00:41:59
were president of Harvard what would you
00:42:00
have done differently sh I I'm not close
00:42:03
enough it's all merging together in my
00:42:05
mind I don't know exactly which protest
00:42:06
has happen at which schools but here's
00:42:08
here's what I would do yeah I would have
00:42:11
very clear rules which by the way all
00:42:13
the schools have it's a question of
00:42:14
enforcing them right the schools that
00:42:16
are letting this happen are not
00:42:17
enforcing their own rules schools are
00:42:20
actually I think look free and open
00:42:21
dialogue is important college is the
00:42:23
place you should go to talk about the
00:42:26
issues from all sides
00:42:27
to have thoughtful conversations to have
00:42:30
deep conversations even maybe to have
00:42:32
Angry conversations yeah but not I went
00:42:35
to Berkeley it wasn't lunch without a
00:42:37
protest I mean that's like the daily
00:42:39
thing you do there you know you go grab
00:42:40
a sandwich and you go protest you go
00:42:42
back to class like that was great and I
00:42:44
bet you had thoughtful conversations
00:42:46
because that's what's made you you look
00:42:47
how look how complic look at your views
00:42:49
David you're able to articulate multiply
00:42:52
complex views and I bet some of that was
00:42:54
from Berkeley where you probably sat
00:42:55
with your fellow students and talk to
00:42:57
them
00:42:59
right that's not what's happening I
00:43:01
think things are very different yeah I
00:43:02
think things are very different these
00:43:04
colleges have rules some of the colleges
00:43:07
there most colleges have a rule that you
00:43:09
can't protest in the president's office
00:43:11
there are colleges where the faculty and
00:43:13
administration when people are
00:43:14
protesting in the president's office
00:43:16
they're serving them food there are
00:43:18
colleges that say you're not allowed to
00:43:19
protest here go outside but if you feel
00:43:22
if you feel deep down in your heart that
00:43:24
it's a matter of life or death don't you
00:43:26
feel Justus ified that having an
00:43:28
encampment setting up a tent living
00:43:29
there showing that that degree of
00:43:32
conviction is necessary because you're
00:43:34
saving lives versus hey I think
00:43:36
something is a good idea let me go
00:43:38
protest for an hour during lunch and
00:43:39
then I'll leave it's never going to move
00:43:40
the needle the question I'm asking as a
00:43:43
young person is how do I move the needle
00:43:45
and there's not a lot of ways that
00:43:46
people feel empowered to move the needle
00:43:48
so it seems rational to me to some
00:43:50
degree that they want to go into these
00:43:52
encampments and they want to do
00:43:53
something strong and show their
00:43:55
conviction but again I think that
00:43:58
there's a question on how much truth or
00:44:00
is anyone willing to see how much are
00:44:02
folks willing to embrace the other side
00:44:03
how much are they willing to listen I I
00:44:05
see very little listening very little
00:44:07
dialogue going on because then you put
00:44:09
up a list of Demands that are
00:44:10
unmet and you know you deny anyone to
00:44:14
have a conversation and you deny
00:44:15
listening to the other side and you take
00:44:18
this hardened view that doesn't allow
00:44:20
for progress and I think it's the
00:44:22
hardened views on all sides that's
00:44:23
limiting progress entirely unfortunately
00:44:26
the youth have been sub by this and it's
00:44:29
really frustrating to see because I
00:44:30
worry about what that it's not
00:44:33
necessarily the youth meaning I think
00:44:36
you're seeing it in some very specific
00:44:38
places that cater to a very specific
00:44:40
kind of Youth you see them at colia
00:44:43
Harvard there are these specific
00:44:45
Berkeley UCLA that are bastions of
00:44:48
privileged kids for the most part these
00:44:50
are extremely Elite institutions that
00:44:53
typically allow in kids that have been
00:44:57
coached their entire lives to get into
00:44:58
those schools and I think that they're
00:45:00
coming there with a lack of fulfillment
00:45:04
and it reminds me at some level of how
00:45:08
people reacted to Occupy Wall Street
00:45:11
meaning there were a whole bunch of
00:45:13
young people there that probably didn't
00:45:15
even know what the whole Occupy Wall
00:45:17
Street movement was about well they said
00:45:19
themselves chth it was a platform for
00:45:21
whatever your grievance was that was
00:45:23
their state in Mission yeah and I think
00:45:25
what they found a decade and a half ago
00:45:27
or so was community in this weird way
00:45:30
yes right the physical interaction of
00:45:31
other people where you had this intimacy
00:45:34
around a thing I'm not condoning Occupy
00:45:35
Wall Street just like I'm not condoning
00:45:37
what's happening on campuses but I think
00:45:39
psychologically what kids are looking
00:45:41
for is that level of attachment and to
00:45:44
your point David something that they can
00:45:45
feel strongly about and I think they end
00:45:48
up getting to the age of 18 and 19 not
00:45:51
having felt strongly about anything
00:45:52
because they were working on playing
00:45:54
Nine Sports and 14 instruments and all
00:45:56
this other bullsh to go to these schools
00:45:59
and then they get there and they feel a
00:46:01
little empty and sometimes negative
00:46:03
things can fill the void what I was
00:46:05
going to say is I think the the answer
00:46:06
lies in what you're in what we're saying
00:46:09
David you started out by saying how are
00:46:10
we going to get to progress well
00:46:12
screaming at each other is not going to
00:46:13
get to progress I don't have an answer
00:46:15
for peace in the Middle East but we're
00:46:16
you know universities play roles in
00:46:18
getting there thoughtful hard
00:46:21
conversations let's look at the real
00:46:23
history let's look at who the leadership
00:46:25
could be let's let look at what kind of
00:46:27
leaders we need on both sides let's look
00:46:29
at what the International Community
00:46:31
could be doing those answers could come
00:46:34
at a universities some of those college
00:46:35
students if they weren't reading five
00:46:38
things they don't understand could help
00:46:39
us get there and I think these protests
00:46:42
are getting in the way of the thoughtful
00:46:45
dialogue and I honestly think part of
00:46:47
what happens with cancel culture I don't
00:46:50
want to listen to another view on all
00:46:53
sides really why don't you say I want to
00:46:57
listen my friend Adam Grant wrote a
00:46:58
great book called think again I wish
00:47:01
everyone in the whole world would read
00:47:02
that damn book think again think again
00:47:04
means you like might not be right about
00:47:06
everything think again means you need to
00:47:09
like listen to the other side we're
00:47:11
never going to get there without that
00:47:13
kind of thoughtful dialogue well yeah
00:47:14
and that's that's exactly where I wanted
00:47:16
to go with the cherl which is if you if
00:47:18
you steal man if you look at their
00:47:20
perspective and you look at the beauty
00:47:23
of feminism and femininity uh and you
00:47:27
wrote a book lenan and you are an expert
00:47:29
on this
00:47:31
and having compassion for people who are
00:47:33
suffering is absolutely beautiful it it
00:47:36
is the best of humanity and and I think
00:47:37
it's the best of femininity and women is
00:47:41
that they have this Incredible Gift of
00:47:43
of empathy that as men maybe we we are
00:47:45
so far behind and so it does not
00:47:48
surprise me that women lead these
00:47:49
organizations when they see suffering
00:47:51
and if you see children suffering women
00:47:53
are in a unique position in their life
00:47:55
experience to understand the value of
00:47:57
children of family and of suffering and
00:48:01
you know I can understand an
00:48:02
impressionable young person seeing the
00:48:05
videos coming out of Gaza of a baby
00:48:07
dying in a bombing and collateral damage
00:48:09
and being devastated and saying you know
00:48:10
what I have to fight for these poor
00:48:13
children it is completely Noble in their
00:48:16
mind in fact it might be Noble uh I mean
00:48:19
to to fight for peace and so you know I
00:48:24
can understand their their positions and
00:48:26
I don't actually disagree with them but
00:48:29
then you you start looking at the
00:48:30
reality of getting the hostages back and
00:48:35
if this was an American situation and
00:48:38
and we actually have a coral are
00:48:40
911 we we didn't go to Afghanistan to
00:48:43
get hostages we went there to get
00:48:46
retribution so if America went there to
00:48:49
eliminate
00:48:51
this threat and and we also took out
00:48:54
another country just for good measure
00:48:56
that that wasn't even involved in it you
00:48:59
know it's such a complex issue and we're
00:49:01
in the fog of War I think everybody
00:49:03
pausing for a second here and just
00:49:04
remember how confusing it was after 911
00:49:07
how confusing it was and and we had to
00:49:09
figure out wait a second these were
00:49:11
Saudis these were this radical group the
00:49:14
Splinter Group like it takes a while to
00:49:15
figure out what's going on here and I I
00:49:19
do think on these campuses they should
00:49:21
allow them to protest but there's
00:49:22
outside agitators that seems to me to be
00:49:24
completely unacceptable to have 40506
00:49:26
are Lifetime agitators on these campuses
00:49:30
allow these kids to
00:49:32
to protest but to chase Jewish kids
00:49:35
around the campus and then surround them
00:49:37
and threaten them in
00:49:39
2024 I I mean I AG I I can't understand
00:49:43
what's happening and how how we got How
00:49:45
Could An Administration Cheryl allow
00:49:48
students to threaten other students and
00:49:50
not immediately snap a snap decision
00:49:54
it's a decision you just said it it's a
00:49:57
a decision absolutely expelled if a Jew
00:50:00
a set of Jewish students surrounded a
00:50:02
Palestinian student an Islamic student a
00:50:06
Muslim and chanted at them about what
00:50:09
happened October 7th and made them feel
00:50:10
threatened expelled them as well there's
00:50:13
just some basic basic rules of the game
00:50:15
they're not enforcing it's absolutely
00:50:17
infuriating uh but I just want to make
00:50:18
sure I steal them on that other side and
00:50:20
and you did you know I think very
00:50:22
eloquently say you also agree with the
00:50:25
suffering Palestine needs to end I know
00:50:28
we're out of time can I say one thing I
00:50:31
really want to saying Cheryl as much as
00:50:32
you like you have time I really want to
00:50:34
thank you all for this because two
00:50:36
things happened in the last hour with
00:50:39
you one is that you were really
00:50:42
passionate against this sexual assault
00:50:44
and really clear and as much as we need
00:50:47
women to believe this we need male and
00:50:49
male leaders and so your voices like I
00:50:52
could feel the passion on this and I'm
00:50:55
really grateful because that that gives
00:50:56
me hope like I am it's such a dark
00:50:59
moment it's such a dark moment for
00:51:00
democracy it's such a dark moment for
00:51:02
Jews it's such a dark moment for women
00:51:04
but this really gave me hope and the
00:51:07
second is um your tears for
00:51:10
Dave
00:51:12
thanks it's been nine years a lot of
00:51:15
we've moved on you have
00:51:17
friends um I have a wonderful life that
00:51:19
I'm so grateful for um but the world
00:51:22
still
00:51:23
lost a really really really special
00:51:26
person and I I can see how much that
00:51:30
means I knew this but there there are
00:51:32
very few things as you gr older that you
00:51:34
realize in life that matters and thank
00:51:37
you um friends are that's it just
00:51:41
friends you know at the end of the day
00:51:43
trath what family and your friends
00:51:44
that's all you have I I I I I think
00:51:47
about Dave frequently and um I just
00:51:50
think at the end of the your life what
00:51:53
you have is but a collection of memories
00:51:57
and the memories we have with Dave the
00:51:59
laughter The Joy the fake chth fake just
00:52:04
his wit his insights you know we would
00:52:07
be sitting at that poker table and it
00:52:09
was like we're all like 15 16 year olds
00:52:12
and we got this big brother who's
00:52:14
20 and you know we'd be bickering and
00:52:17
laughing whatever he'd come in and say
00:52:18
hey
00:52:19
guys how about this and this so chath
00:52:22
and I would be drawing each other he'
00:52:23
hey guys let's calm it down a little bit
00:52:26
and let's have a good time whatever
00:52:27
thank you guys so much I have to go to
00:52:28
my board meeting this was this was like
00:52:32
as deeply meaningful as it could have
00:52:35
been seriously we we didn't get to talk
00:52:37
about anything business I I you to come
00:52:40
back to the either come to the summit
00:52:42
and are shorten video we just need to
00:52:44
know it's a
00:52:46
hard hard also what's your view on
00:52:51
crypto uh if you were to change any
00:52:54
paragraph of the Leaning book we'll save
00:52:57
all this for the Sun come on really big
00:52:58
hug thank you guys and thank you for
00:53:01
watching thank
00:53:03
you wow I need to take a deep breath
00:53:05
here chth freeberg this was um super
00:53:08
emotional for me man I didn't know if I
00:53:11
could do it I'll be honest I have so
00:53:12
many emotions jamath about Dave I have
00:53:15
so many feelings about this situation
00:53:17
when I watch the
00:53:19
documentary I thought the most important
00:53:21
thing is there are these you said it
00:53:23
Jason in the fog of War there are things
00:53:25
that happened that are just wholly
00:53:29
unacceptable I
00:53:31
remember when I was getting older and I
00:53:34
was curious why did my
00:53:37
family not go back to Sri Lanka and what
00:53:41
do the tamils which is a small minority
00:53:43
Hindu minority in the majority Buddhist
00:53:46
population why did they feel so out of
00:53:48
sorts and we were part of the Buddhist
00:53:50
majority and when you insert yourself
00:53:53
into that struggle and understand where
00:53:55
they're coming from
00:53:57
it's jarring because you have to really
00:53:59
like re underwrite okay what are we
00:54:02
fighting for what are they fighting for
00:54:04
and the most important thing that I got
00:54:05
to is what is
00:54:06
allowed because then you would see
00:54:09
things and the unfortunate part of Sri
00:54:11
Lanka Sri Lanka's history was in the
00:54:14
final parts of the war that ended it
00:54:17
there were some incredible atrocities
00:54:19
that were committed and you know the
00:54:21
United Nations and international court
00:54:24
system tried to find Justice for the
00:54:27
Tamil minority population in what
00:54:29
happened in those Final hours of that
00:54:31
war I I don't think that they did for
00:54:34
for for the most
00:54:35
part but it's just to show you that
00:54:38
these things leave deep wounds that
00:54:41
frankly can be
00:54:43
reopened in a moment so it's very
00:54:46
important that I think these things are
00:54:48
and I hate to say it so unemotionally
00:54:50
but documented absolutely absolutely for
00:54:54
those that have that don't even
00:54:56
understand Holocaust if you go to the
00:54:57
Holocaust Museum if you're lucky enough
00:54:59
to do it in Israel I would encourage you
00:55:00
to do it but even in
00:55:03
Washington you know the totality of what
00:55:05
happened there's there's certain places
00:55:07
that document these important moments in
00:55:09
history and if and if this is one of
00:55:11
those moments to the Israeli people I
00:55:13
just encourage them please make
00:55:15
sure that you minimize the Miss and
00:55:19
disinformation as complicated as that
00:55:21
may be to do it is incredibly important
00:55:24
so that you can create and doing so
00:55:26
does not dissolve empathy for the other
00:55:30
side's cause or for the other side's
00:55:33
motivations or objectives having empathy
00:55:36
for the circumstances that happened here
00:55:38
is the equivalent of having empathy for
00:55:40
the plight of the Palestinian people and
00:55:42
what they're dealing with today
00:55:44
following October 7th and I think that
00:55:46
we need to recognize that both things
00:55:48
can be true we can have empathy for both
00:55:51
sides yeah and by the way humans have a
00:55:54
way of making decisions which I think is
00:55:57
pretty predictable which is once you
00:55:59
have a point of
00:56:01
view there are things that you believe
00:56:03
are facts and then there's all this
00:56:05
other stuff that you have degrees in
00:56:07
which you believe that are essentially
00:56:10
conjecture the most important thing in
00:56:12
really important debates is to move
00:56:15
something from that Gray Zone into the
00:56:17
box of facts so to speak and that is the
00:56:20
only way that causes people to rewrite
00:56:23
their principal views it doesn't matter
00:56:25
what topic we're talking about so the
00:56:28
more that we're able to document and
00:56:30
actually make these things unambiguous I
00:56:32
think it actually has a really important
00:56:35
role to play in how these young people
00:56:37
view what it is that they're part of I'm
00:56:40
totally Pro protesting I'm totally in
00:56:42
support of you know standing up for the
00:56:44
things that you believe in I'm not in
00:56:47
support of overlooking
00:56:49
atrocities I mean it's it's well said
00:56:52
chamat and you know the response I I can
00:56:55
tell you to you know this this episode
00:56:57
and the response I got for just tweeting
00:57:00
you know hey this is important
00:57:01
documentary to watch is you know the
00:57:03
whatow baptism the other side and
00:57:06
documenting what's happening in Gaza and
00:57:08
you know we we have this search for
00:57:10
truth right now which is very difficult
00:57:13
because
00:57:14
institutions have a lot of
00:57:17
self-inflicted wounds we live in an age
00:57:19
of conspiracy
00:57:20
theory you know and and there are
00:57:23
reports of Crisis actors you know in
00:57:27
Gaza creating fake deaths and fake
00:57:31
videos so you know now you have one side
00:57:33
saying oh the the people of Palestine or
00:57:36
Hamas are the numbers aren't correct of
00:57:39
the number of people died the the
00:57:40
suffering is not correct these images
00:57:41
aren't correct the fog of war is going
00:57:43
to be thick for a while here folks and
00:57:45
it's going to take us a while and
00:57:46
Shaman's exactly right you got to
00:57:47
document this you got to get to some
00:57:48
ground truth you got to get to some
00:57:50
common facts so we can all objectively
00:57:54
look at those common facts and you know
00:57:55
listen um it's it's a shame David sax
00:57:57
couldn't make it today but it would have
00:57:58
he's really missed here because you know
00:58:00
we have that same thing with the the the
00:58:02
war in Ukraine and it's very hard
00:58:06
for us in this current media landscape
00:58:08
where we're quoting from new sources and
00:58:12
Anonymous Twitter accounts fake videos
00:58:15
it's going to get worse with AI it's
00:58:17
going to be harder and harder to find
00:58:18
the truth and this is where your own
00:58:20
personal morality ethics and and I'm not
00:58:22
sure who brought this up during our talk
00:58:25
cuz I'm emotionally spent I got to be
00:58:27
honest um it's a little hard for me to
00:58:29
collect myself here but man you know it
00:58:32
you you have to have some basic moral
00:58:35
principles
00:58:36
here children women rape sexual assault
00:58:41
we we all can agree on this you said
00:58:43
this in the week after October 7th
00:58:46
freeberg you had a very powerful moment
00:58:47
on the show that that you don't want to
00:58:50
have to decide between between October
00:58:54
7th being horrific
00:58:56
and children dying in Gaza being
00:58:58
horrific and you don't want to have to
00:59:00
be painted with one side or the other
00:59:02
you want to believe as a moral person
00:59:06
that all suffering needs to end and we
00:59:09
collectively as a species in 2024 on
00:59:13
this planet can work together to to just
00:59:17
agree that certain things should never
00:59:20
happen and and to try to resolve these
00:59:22
horrible conflicts I'm I'm I'm so spent
00:59:25
right now and it was very difficult for
00:59:26
me to watch that documentary I don't
00:59:28
know where we go from here gentlemen I
00:59:30
I'm fine ending the show here or taking
00:59:32
a 10-minute break and then maybe doing
00:59:33
one or two news stories take a break
00:59:35
we'll come back let's take five 10
00:59:39
[Music]
00:59:44
minutes all right everybody welcome back
00:59:47
to the
00:59:48
program yep it's not easy to do a pivot
00:59:51
here but we collected ourselves took a
00:59:54
deep breath and you've all been asking
00:59:56
for a science corner and so there's a
00:59:59
really important story that freeberg has
01:00:02
been educating us about on the group
01:00:04
chat there's a startup that just open
01:00:05
sourced an AI Gene editor Yes you heard
01:00:07
that right open source Gene editor
01:00:09
powered by AI it's called profluent bio
01:00:13
am I correct profluent uh yeah Berkeley
01:00:15
based startup profluent bio great have
01:00:18
we talked about crisper and Gene editing
01:00:19
before on the show or no I think we have
01:00:21
mentioned it it would be good as a
01:00:23
primer for you to just explain from
01:00:25
first principal what is crisper why it's
01:00:27
important and then get into this so
01:00:29
there's debate around who discovered
01:00:31
crisper cast systems first and found
01:00:33
their application but but generally who
01:00:35
side are you on the Jennifer Duda side
01:00:37
or the MIT is it is I'm an open source
01:00:41
guy which is why I'm excited about this
01:00:42
topic today because I I don't give a sh
01:00:44
I think things that are in nature are in
01:00:45
nature and I don't think you should be
01:00:47
able to Pat I don't think you should be
01:00:48
able to patent stuff that you discover
01:00:49
in nature so let's step back for a
01:00:51
second freberg explain what crisper is
01:00:53
to somebody who's heard the term but
01:00:54
doesn't actually know in your ability to
01:00:56
explain science yeah crisper C crisper c
01:01:02
c c proteins Cas proteins are proteins
01:01:07
that can go in to a cell and they have
01:01:11
what's called a guide RNA little piece
01:01:14
of RNA attached to them that allows that
01:01:17
protein to find its way to a specific
01:01:20
point in DNA in that cell in the nucleus
01:01:22
of that cell and when that protein hits
01:01:25
that specific location it cuts it like
01:01:27
scissors and so the protein finds the
01:01:30
part of the DNA it's looking to cut
01:01:32
attaches itself cuts the the DNA and a
01:01:34
cut is made and so this capability was
01:01:37
discovered actually in bacteria and it
01:01:40
was an evolved system that bacteria
01:01:43
developed to actually protect themselves
01:01:45
from viruses so the crisper Cass complex
01:01:49
emerged through Evolution where bacteria
01:01:52
started to figure out that they could
01:01:54
cut up viral DNA so they made these
01:01:56
proteins these proteins would attach to
01:01:58
viral DNA and destroy the viruses that
01:02:00
came into the the um the bacteria cells
01:02:04
so scientists arguably from Harvard from
01:02:06
Berkeley and from other places around
01:02:08
the world in the early 2010s started to
01:02:11
do research and identified ways that we
01:02:14
could leverage these proteins that we
01:02:15
were discovering in nature to do
01:02:18
targeted DNA editing in human cells and
01:02:21
plant cells and other cells so rather
01:02:23
than them just being used as a defense
01:02:25
mechanism by bacteria that we could
01:02:27
harness these proteins and make them
01:02:29
useful to go in and do specific Gene
01:02:32
editing now why would we want to do Gene
01:02:33
editing Gene editing if
01:02:37
done precisely enough and efficiently
01:02:39
enough would allow us to go in and fix
01:02:42
genetic diseases in humans for example
01:02:44
it would allow us to take tea cells and
01:02:47
reprogram them to go and attack cancer
01:02:51
cells back in the human body it would
01:02:52
allow us in the case of Agriculture
01:02:54
which I'm very close to and what I work
01:02:56
on every day to figure out ways to make
01:02:58
specific changes to the genes of a plant
01:03:01
to make that plant grow in higher yield
01:03:03
or change itself to be disease resistant
01:03:06
or drought resistant or other features
01:03:08
that might be helpful to Agriculture and
01:03:10
to humanity so Gene editing became this
01:03:12
amazing toolkit that emerged around 2012
01:03:16
2013 and just blew up on the market and
01:03:18
the main original foundational patents
01:03:21
which are now mostly held after a lot of
01:03:23
litigation by the broad Institute which
01:03:26
is you know there's this kind of joint
01:03:27
patent arrangement with the broad and
01:03:29
MIT and
01:03:31
Harvard are being used in medical
01:03:33
applications they're being used in
01:03:34
agriculture applications they're being
01:03:36
used in all these different tools but
01:03:37
they're patented there's royalties
01:03:39
there's fees all this stuff and in the
01:03:41
years that followed many other cast
01:03:44
proteins started to get discovered all
01:03:45
these different types of proteins were
01:03:47
discovered and the reason you want to
01:03:49
use different proteins is you want to
01:03:50
improve the efficiency so how frequently
01:03:52
or how good are these proteins at
01:03:53
editing the cell and
01:03:56
eliminate off Target effects meaning the
01:03:58
protein isn't making Cuts or making
01:04:00
changes to other parts of the DNA that
01:04:02
you don't want it to so there's been the
01:04:04
search underway for the last decade for
01:04:06
new cast proteins and developing new
01:04:07
cast proteins and dozens have been
01:04:10
discovered people are trying to patent
01:04:11
them people are trying to make them uh
01:04:14
do special things they can only change
01:04:16
one letter all these different tools are
01:04:18
emerging so we went from having
01:04:20
absolutely no ability to do Gene editing
01:04:22
just over a decade ago to suddenly
01:04:24
having all of these different tools that
01:04:26
could do Gene editing really efficiently
01:04:29
really cheaply really really affordably
01:04:31
really scalably and more precisely so
01:04:33
this company profluent they actually
01:04:35
used an AI model what they call a
01:04:38
protein language model to create and
01:04:40
train an entirely new library of cast
01:04:44
proteins that do not exist in nature
01:04:47
today so they basically took 26 terabase
01:04:50
so 26 trillion letters of assembled
01:04:54
genomes and genomes this is from other
01:04:57
from various species and start to
01:04:59
simulate new cast proteins that could be
01:05:02
useful to replace the ones that are on
01:05:04
the market today or improvements on
01:05:06
what's in the market today and they
01:05:08
found one that they called open crisper
01:05:10
one and they made it publicly available
01:05:13
under an open- Source license so any
01:05:16
startup any research lab any individual
01:05:19
any scientists can use this particular
01:05:22
cast protein to go in and make without
01:05:26
having to deal with patent and IP and
01:05:28
claims on who owns what that they found
01:05:30
in nature and this particular protein
01:05:34
that they identified is 400 mutations
01:05:37
away from anything that they've seen in
01:05:40
nature so basically the AI model started
01:05:43
to learn what sequence of DNA generated
01:05:47
what structure of protein that was
01:05:49
really good at being a gene editor and
01:05:52
they started to discover and iterate on
01:05:53
building new ones and AI started to
01:05:56
predict hey this would be a good Gene
01:05:57
editor this would be a good Gene editor
01:05:59
and they came up with dozens of new Gene
01:06:01
editing molecules that don't exist in
01:06:03
nature today they identified one that
01:06:05
they then sequenced they created it they
01:06:08
put it in a lab they tested it and it
01:06:10
turned out to be much better than cast n
01:06:13
so the one so they use an AI model
01:06:17
to find a new guide RNA to find a new
01:06:21
cast protein so the guide RNA is just
01:06:24
RNA that's like that's like the
01:06:26
key think about a crisper cast system
01:06:30
has two components one is the cast
01:06:32
Protein that's the giant protein that
01:06:35
goes in and cuts DNA and it attached to
01:06:37
it is what's called a guide RNA that
01:06:39
guide RNA is the specific letters and
01:06:42
those specific letters are like a key
01:06:43
and a lock they go attached to a
01:06:44
particular part of the DNA and then that
01:06:46
giant protein Cuts in that exact spot
01:06:49
and so what they what everyone's been
01:06:50
working on is new proteins and they've
01:06:52
been trying to find new cast proteins
01:06:54
that aren't going to go do of Target
01:06:55
cutting they aren't going to make
01:06:57
mistakes that are going to be perfect at
01:06:58
making the exact cut you want to make so
01:07:00
everyone's always trying to improve the
01:07:02
efficiency and reduce the off Target
01:07:04
effects of these systems and so what
01:07:06
they did is they tried to create a new
01:07:07
protein that doesn't exist by learning
01:07:10
from all of these other cast proteins
01:07:11
that exist in nature today and
01:07:13
identifying the three-dimensional
01:07:14
structure of them and allow the model to
01:07:17
predict a cast protein that might
01:07:18
actually be better than anything that's
01:07:20
found so it works around every single
01:07:22
existing
01:07:23
patent well that's going to be t in the
01:07:25
courts later I'm sure but they open
01:07:27
sourced it so they they're not claiming
01:07:28
any IP on it they're not making any
01:07:30
claims on it with the patent office and
01:07:32
they're saying look it's free and
01:07:33
available I'm on the same page as you if
01:07:35
this is if this was occurring billions
01:07:37
of years
01:07:38
ago and it just took us billions of
01:07:40
years to actually observe it occurring
01:07:42
naturally in nature it's absolutely
01:07:44
ridiculous that a patent would be
01:07:45
granted on that now the implementation
01:07:47
of that in a commercial use case that's
01:07:49
fine be able to this is happening I
01:07:51
guess in the Psychedelic space with s
01:07:55
thin MDMA some of those such a that's
01:07:58
such a leap no no I'm just saying there
01:08:00
are drug companies now that are real
01:08:02
realizing the efficacy at Johns Hopkins
01:08:04
Stanford where they're doing these and
01:08:05
then they're trying to figure out how do
01:08:07
we take something that's occurring
01:08:08
naturally so cent in
01:08:10
mushrooms referred to colloquially as
01:08:12
magic mushrooms and then how how do we
01:08:14
get our how do we bear hug this so that
01:08:15
we can patent it how can we own the
01:08:17
implementation of it as you're saying
01:08:19
and so there it's fascinating to me
01:08:22
taking nature and trying to patent
01:08:24
nature right there's a simple truth to
01:08:26
all this which is every single life
01:08:29
sciences lab on Earth is using this
01:08:32
technology today it has absolutely
01:08:35
revolutionized Life Sciences it has
01:08:37
changed everything it has reset the
01:08:39
trajectory of human health of
01:08:41
Agriculture and of industrial
01:08:42
biotechnology those are the three major
01:08:44
markets where Gene editing is useful it
01:08:47
is changing everything and so it is
01:08:49
already a ubiquitous tool we basically
01:08:51
created software engineering for DNA for
01:08:54
life capability and so this system that
01:08:57
these guys just published on I think is
01:08:59
a really wonderful manifestation of how
01:09:02
AI is allowing us to open source and
01:09:04
create improved
01:09:06
tools and uh it's uh it's really
01:09:10
important for Humanity and so I think
01:09:11
it's just great to to see happen yeah
01:09:13
okay two questions for my baby brother
01:09:15
with the with the science brain number
01:09:17
one the llms
01:09:19
here how maybe you speak to the efficacy
01:09:22
of llms when applied to this
01:09:25
vertical because it's a constrained data
01:09:28
set I believe so it feels to me
01:09:30
analogous to code whereas like human
01:09:33
language images videos you know building
01:09:35
an llm around them you have like pretty
01:09:38
large
01:09:39
Corpus it seems to me code is contrained
01:09:41
a video game's contrained and of course
01:09:43
maybe maybe Gene editing is contrained
01:09:44
I'll let you answer that and and the llm
01:09:47
component here and then maybe you could
01:09:48
speak to what this will do to the
01:09:51
startup Community being able to leverage
01:09:54
this open source tool have have startups
01:09:56
started to pop up around this yet is
01:09:58
there a. org.com kind of equivalent here
01:10:01
where you have wordpress.org open source
01:10:04
version of Wordpress wordpress.com the
01:10:06
hosted paid version and are we going to
01:10:07
see a bunch of Doc versions of this in
01:10:10
different startups take it whichever way
01:10:11
you like the two questions I'm not super
01:10:15
familiar I've met the profluent guys a
01:10:17
couple times I'm not super familiar with
01:10:18
what their business models going to be
01:10:22
MH but I hate
01:10:26
that startups are worried or feel
01:10:29
encumbered
01:10:31
by the patent
01:10:34
landscape associated with crisper cast
01:10:37
systems and that they can't build novel
01:10:39
products and move Humanity forward okay
01:10:41
so it's a blocker for Humanity I'm
01:10:44
hopeful that we do see more of these
01:10:45
open source like tools become available
01:10:47
in ubiquitous it's almost the equivalent
01:10:50
of having Linux where everyone can now
01:10:54
you know as an operating system or HTML
01:10:57
being you know standard uh code I don't
01:10:59
know if you remember to use um before
01:11:02
HTML 5 a lot of people were using
01:11:04
macromedia flash of course it was a huge
01:11:07
blocker yeah it was a huge blocker so
01:11:09
you had to pay the license fee to to
01:11:11
create flash content and then you had to
01:11:13
I don't know if they sold consumer
01:11:15
plugins well yeah and then you could get
01:11:16
rug pulled right they could change their
01:11:18
mind trying and they were trying to make
01:11:19
money on both sides and so in order to
01:11:21
show Microsoft did to try to be a
01:11:24
blocker and own the open so in order to
01:11:26
put yeah in order to put multimedia on
01:11:28
the internet you have used to have to
01:11:29
pay license fees and then HTML 5
01:11:32
basically created multimedia
01:11:34
capabilities native to the HTML which is
01:11:36
open sourced and so everyone could do it
01:11:39
and I think that it's really important
01:11:40
that we see that happening with Gene
01:11:42
editing I think all the applications of
01:11:43
Gene editing should be patentable and
01:11:45
protectable but the core tools are so
01:11:47
powerful and important that I think it's
01:11:49
very difficult and hard to see how we
01:11:53
are accelerating Humanity's progress
01:11:55
by keeping these things at Bay and it's
01:11:58
really great to see open sour tools like
01:12:00
this hit the market and I think it's
01:12:03
really important to and I think it's
01:12:04
really
01:12:05
amazing cre yeah tell me about the llm
01:12:08
side here the large language model being
01:12:09
built around this data how how what's
01:12:12
the efficacy of that going to be like
01:12:13
and is my analogy of a constrained data
01:12:17
set meaning it'll be able to perform at
01:12:19
a higher level like we see with code and
01:12:21
then co-pilots for code well they
01:12:23
created their their own llm they call it
01:12:27
a a protein language model so they took
01:12:30
all of this genome data that is
01:12:32
generally very publicly available
01:12:34
there's a lot of the stuff published in
01:12:36
open genome databases you can download
01:12:38
it ingest it and use it for whatever
01:12:40
purposes you want as a life sciences
01:12:42
researcher so they took 26 trillion base
01:12:46
pairs of data and
01:12:48
basically use that to train their model
01:12:52
and then using that train model they
01:12:53
then started to run inference on it to
01:12:56
say come up with cast systems that are
01:12:57
are novel that could theoretically have
01:13:01
efficacy greater than what we see in
01:13:02
nature with the natural cast systems and
01:13:05
then the model started to Output all of
01:13:06
these novel proteins then they started
01:13:07
to test them and they found that this
01:13:10
one worked really really well after
01:13:12
testing in the lab so actually here's a
01:13:14
great image so here you can see
01:13:16
basically in training the model so it's
01:13:18
it's a little bit technically
01:13:19
complicated what they did in the steps
01:13:21
to generate this system but ultimately
01:13:23
the system yielded something that they
01:13:25
could then create put in a lab
01:13:27
environment and in the lab environment
01:13:29
test how well it worked and what they
01:13:31
showed was that it actually worked
01:13:32
better than cast 9 which is the primary
01:13:35
Gene editing protein Ed today so you
01:13:37
know pretty powerful set of steps and
01:13:39
all unlocked by again freely available
01:13:42
data and building their own model and
01:13:45
now ultimately open sourcing the best
01:13:48
output of it so cool amazing job if you
01:13:52
missed any of those Graphics you're
01:13:54
listening to the podast
01:13:55
go to YouTube and search for all in
01:13:57
podcast if you want to see those
01:13:58
Graphics all right gentlemen this has
01:14:00
been another amazing episode of the all
01:14:03
in podcast 4 your Sultan of science
01:14:05
David freeberg the chairman
01:14:08
dictator uh and David saaks who could
01:14:10
make it today I am the world's greatest
01:14:12
moderator rest in power Dave Goldberg
01:14:16
Goldie we love you we miss you and we'll
01:14:18
see you all next time on the all podcast
01:14:20
love you boys besties
01:14:23
byee let your winner
01:14:26
ride Rainman
01:14:30
David and instead we open source it to
01:14:33
the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:14:34
with it love queen
01:14:40
[Music]
01:14:43
of
01:14:46
Besties my dog taking
01:14:51
driveway oh man my habiter will meet me
01:14:54
at should all just get a room and just
01:14:56
have one big huge orgy cuz they're all
01:14:57
this useless it's like this like sexual
01:14:59
tension but they just need to release
01:15:01
[Music]
01:15:07
somehow we need to get mer
01:15:12
[Music]
01:15:16
our I'm doing all
01:15:19
[Music]