00:00:00
why do you always go Christopher Watkin
00:00:02
whenever you do these outros why do you
00:00:03
do that thanks for listening to the all
00:00:06
in podcast wow David Sachs poignant
00:00:10
points about regulatory capture freeberg
00:00:15
loves mock meets not for me Chamas
00:00:20
everyone loves a Great
00:00:24
Dictator we'll see you next time oh
00:00:28
podcast w
00:00:32
love you boys so good one your better
00:00:36
Impressions everyone's got their
00:00:38
superpower that's your super nasty nasty
00:00:41
Jal butu it don'tu I'm coming on I'm
00:00:44
coming on all
00:00:46
in Let Your winners
00:00:48
[Music]
00:00:50
ride
00:00:53
David and instead we open source it to
00:00:56
the fans and they've just gone crazy
00:00:58
with it love you Queen
00:01:03
hey freeberg you want to tell them about
00:01:04
your new family members oh my god did
00:01:07
did he get more dogs is he trying to
00:01:08
Dave foro this again oh miss pacher so
00:01:12
I'm like working all day Friday I'm like
00:01:15
wiped out I'd been in I can't remember
00:01:17
oh yeah I was in Santa Cruz I made it
00:01:19
all the way back up through the traffic
00:01:21
I get up to the house I've been texting
00:01:24
and calling all afternoon no response
00:01:26
I'm like what theck is going on normally
00:01:28
she'll text me like just walk through
00:01:30
the door open the door to my car every
00:01:32
little thing so for her to not be
00:01:33
calling me back as something's up I walk
00:01:35
in the house the kids are there they're
00:01:37
jumping up and down daddy daddy we got
00:01:39
two new dogs and I'm like what the
00:01:41
are you talking about we didn't get two
00:01:42
new dogs what are you think mommy's got
00:01:44
two new dogs and then Mommy took him to
00:01:47
the vet she'll be back in a few minutes
00:01:48
I'm like no way and I had some friends
00:01:50
coming over for dinner they walk in the
00:01:52
house the kids are jumping up and down 2
00:01:54
minutes later walks in the house these
00:01:56
two dogs that sh someone found in a
00:01:59
parking lot and Jose and they couldn't
00:02:01
find a home for these dogs and they were
00:02:02
like the dogs don't have a home decided
00:02:05
I'll take them into my home and I'm like
00:02:07
you this is why you didn't call me you
00:02:09
didn't text me I walked out the room I'm
00:02:11
like it's over it's been nice knowing
00:02:13
you the kids are screaming daddy you
00:02:15
can't get rid of the dogs they're our
00:02:16
dogs now these are the best dogs so now
00:02:18
we have four dogs how much was the vet
00:02:21
belt and then I come down that night
00:02:22
huge in the dining room like multiple
00:02:25
diarrhea plopped all over the floor I
00:02:28
walked downstairs the whole house was
00:02:29
smelling of poop oh my God my house has
00:02:32
become like you know those Carnival
00:02:33
trains that used to go from City to City
00:02:35
back in the 19th century if one of those
00:02:37
trains like fell over and Spilled open
00:02:39
that's basically what my house has
00:02:40
become it just smells like poo and hay
00:02:44
and there's clowns and children running
00:02:46
around and I live in there did I ever
00:02:48
tell you the the story of Chuck Norris
00:02:50
the
00:02:52
Chihuahua no no no so I'm going to a
00:02:55
wedding I'm in like Arizona I'm driving
00:02:58
like on one of these giant like like
00:03:00
Arizona streets and a Chihuahua
00:03:02
runs across this like eight Lane
00:03:05
Boulevard whatever and I'm like oh my
00:03:08
God I'm like dodging around it and it
00:03:10
goes into the other side of traffic and
00:03:11
I see a car and he just the dog Ducks he
00:03:15
misses the car I'm like oh thank God my
00:03:17
wife is screaming her head off the dog
00:03:20
gets whacked by another car and it goes
00:03:22
rolling down the highway I make a U-turn
00:03:25
I block it the dog's knocked out on the
00:03:27
side of the road I run up to the dog I
00:03:29
pick it up I'm like a this dog's gonna
00:03:31
die you know and I I get in the car I
00:03:35
said let's just take it to a vet
00:03:37
whatever and I'm saying goodbye to the
00:03:39
dog the dog's like looking up at me it's
00:03:42
in bad shape we go to a vet I give it to
00:03:45
the vet we go to the wedding my wife who
00:03:48
is like got this big heart uh decides
00:03:52
she's gonna stay with the dog so I go to
00:03:54
the wedding I go to the you know opening
00:03:55
night party she's with she's at the
00:03:57
24-hour vet sitting with this dog
00:04:00
waiting for it to die in hospice oh my
00:04:02
God the dog doesn't die the dog survives
00:04:06
sorry now it's
00:04:08
Monday and I get the alert on my credit
00:04:11
card
00:04:12
$122,000 yeah
00:04:14
yeah 12 yeah ,000 on this dead dog I'm
00:04:20
like the dog survives I bring the dog
00:04:24
back to the Bay Area the dog's fine I
00:04:28
can't believe it but you know it's got
00:04:29
like a broken leg all the stuff but you
00:04:30
know he's generally he the dog's alive
00:04:33
so I put him on social media I'm like
00:04:35
anybody want Chuck Norris a dog that
00:04:36
cannot die this is like the toughest
00:04:38
Chihuahua you ever
00:04:40
seen some of these rich people uh in San
00:04:43
Francisco living on like a certain
00:04:45
Street uh on Broadway or something like
00:04:48
that turns out they're
00:04:50
like they're heirs to something
00:04:54
famous they live in like three states
00:04:56
they got a private jet all this nonsense
00:04:58
they say we'll take the dog they're
00:05:00
friends with a couple of our
00:05:01
mutuals so I'm like this is great I'm
00:05:04
going to get the 12 Grand from
00:05:10
them CU I looked these people up they
00:05:12
got a private jet I don't got a private
00:05:14
jet they got three houses so they come
00:05:17
down to pick up the dog with their
00:05:18
driver and everything and we're
00:05:20
delivering the dog and I tell Jade hey
00:05:22
can we let them know about the $122,000
00:05:25
Bill maybe they'll pick it up or we can
00:05:28
split it it's like a Larry DAV
00:05:31
and my wife is like if you bring that up
00:05:32
with them I'm divorcing you we have to
00:05:34
pay the 12,000 so I pay the 12,000 they
00:05:36
proceed to then send us pictures of
00:05:39
Chuck Norris on private jets you know
00:05:42
for years to this day Chuck Norris
00:05:45
living this life and I paid 12 Grand to
00:05:47
save this freeberg told me this story I
00:05:49
found it so
00:05:51
hilarious but I told him you know after
00:05:54
we got Joker when Jason when you came to
00:05:56
visit us in for of theadom me Joker had
00:05:59
like jaria so he was just everywhere and
00:06:03
you know we got through it and then
00:06:06
three months ago when you guys were at
00:06:08
my house for poker Shawn made octopus
00:06:12
and left some raw octopus in a garbage
00:06:13
bag outside and Joker and Joker ate it
00:06:17
and he got such terrible poisoning we
00:06:19
had to take him to the to the emergency
00:06:21
animal hospital where he stayed for like
00:06:23
a week that was by the way
00:06:25
[Music]
00:06:26
17K but ever since he came back he's
00:06:29
been completely incontinent so I was
00:06:31
telling freeer that Nat and I now just
00:06:33
wake up half an hour early and what we
00:06:35
do now from 6:30 to usually 645 is we're
00:06:38
cleaning up some form of feces that he's
00:06:41
left somewhere in the house we have to
00:06:43
go and find where did he take a let's go
00:06:46
clean it up and the worst one was he
00:06:48
once pooped through one of the
00:06:50
greates with this really bad poo and I
00:06:53
had to go and just fetch it all out it
00:06:55
was just disgusting oh right in the gr
00:06:57
fantastic right in the gr yeah so there
00:06:58
you have it folks go adopt a pet uh
00:07:00
there's your ringing endorsement 4 to
00:07:04
$177,000 in Veterinary bills and
00:07:07
cleaning up all day long and replacing
00:07:10
carpets listen we got a big docket today
00:07:13
I know it's a bit early in the year but
00:07:15
I am going to add a new category or I'm
00:07:18
proposing a new category would love to
00:07:20
hear your feedback on it for the 2024
00:07:22
besties most based CEO lots of options
00:07:26
to choose from right now which we'll get
00:07:28
into in a minute but there seems to be a
00:07:29
bit of a Vibe shift happening in t
00:07:31
during Peak Zer and cancel culture 2019
00:07:34
to
00:07:35
2021 era seemed like CEOs were a little
00:07:39
Vigilant about what they would say you
00:07:41
know the Tim Cooks the Sundar but
00:07:42
something has clearly changed Tech CEOs
00:07:44
have gotten radically candid and fired
00:07:47
their comms group two great examples
00:07:49
this week that we were talking about
00:07:52
Jensen Wong the CEO of Nvidia had this
00:07:55
awesome clip when speaking at Stanford's
00:07:57
Graduate School of Business I think one
00:07:59
of my great advantages is that I have
00:08:01
very low expectations and I mean that
00:08:03
most of the Stanford graduates have very
00:08:06
high expectations people with very high
00:08:08
expectations have very low resilience
00:08:10
and unfortunately resilience matters in
00:08:13
success I don't know how to teach it to
00:08:15
you except for I hope suffering happens
00:08:17
to you to this day I use the word the
00:08:19
phrase pain and suffering inside our
00:08:20
company with great Glee boy this is
00:08:22
going to cause a lot of pain and
00:08:23
suffering and I mean that in a happy way
00:08:25
because you want to train you want to
00:08:27
refine the character of your company you
00:08:29
want greatness out of them and greatness
00:08:30
is not intelligence greatness comes from
00:08:32
character and character isn't formed out
00:08:34
of smart people it's formed out of
00:08:36
people who suffered and then next up
00:08:38
paler CEO Alex karp called out the coked
00:08:41
up short sellers on
00:08:45
cnpc I love burning the short sellers
00:08:47
like almost nothing makes a human
00:08:50
happier than taking the lines of cocaine
00:08:52
and away from these short sellers who
00:08:56
like are going short on a truly Great
00:08:58
American company not just ours but I
00:09:00
just love pulling down Great American
00:09:02
companies so that they can pay for their
00:09:03
Coke and the best thing that could
00:09:05
happen to them is we will provide we
00:09:08
will lead their Coke dealers to their
00:09:10
homes after they can't pay their bills
00:09:13
that's like one of my surely all short
00:09:15
sellers yeah well you know go ahead do
00:09:17
your thing we'll do our thing there you
00:09:19
have it folks of
00:09:21
course we we uh
00:09:24
had elon's
00:09:26
great good for you at uh some New York
00:09:30
Times conference always candid and even
00:09:33
Zuckerberg he's been getting a little
00:09:34
based he did a whole video about how the
00:09:37
Apple Vision Pro was when compared to
00:09:40
meta Quest 2 he he's getting a little
00:09:43
frisky on the social media
00:09:46
freeberg is the vibe shift real it seems
00:09:49
like a lot of people are less worried
00:09:50
about cancel culture as they were three
00:09:53
years ago so I don't know if it's just
00:09:56
in Silicon Valley broadly in Media and
00:09:59
broadly culturally there seems to be a
00:10:01
move away from cancel culture mentality
00:10:04
and people are speaking their mind
00:10:07
more which is yeah I think obviously
00:10:09
positive and
00:10:11
refreshing saak you're a big fan of uh
00:10:14
freedom of speech your thoughts on this
00:10:17
Vibe shift is it is this related to
00:10:19
cancel culture kind of ending and
00:10:21
journalists just not being able to
00:10:23
cancel people because they misspoke or
00:10:26
were a little spicy in their takes well
00:10:28
I like the fact that these CEOs are all
00:10:31
being colorful in their remarks and
00:10:33
candid and interesting and that that's
00:10:35
always a good thing and in each of these
00:10:38
cases I kind of like what they had to
00:10:40
say but I think that you might or we
00:10:44
collectively might be reading a little
00:10:45
bit too much into this I mean at the end
00:10:48
of the day what sacred cows are they
00:10:50
really challenging what
00:10:52
real dangerous truths are they speaking
00:10:55
what real risks are they taking I just
00:10:57
don't put any of the things that they're
00:10:59
saying are doing in the same category as
00:11:02
say what Elon has been doing in terms of
00:11:04
taking on the powers that be in terms of
00:11:06
rolling back censorship and promoting
00:11:10
free speech on on X I mean Elon I think
00:11:13
has taken some real risks in doing that
00:11:16
and you see that he's paying the price
00:11:18
with all these government investigations
00:11:20
and the voiding of his compensation
00:11:23
package that I think is just in a
00:11:25
slightly different category of True
00:11:28
risk-taking by speaking truth to power
00:11:31
or allowing the masses to speak truth to
00:11:34
power compared to what these other guys
00:11:36
are doing and I'm not disparaging any of
00:11:37
them but you know look at them one by
00:11:39
one I mean Alex Kart made a colorful
00:11:41
joke at the expense of short Traders I
00:11:44
agree but it's not really a risky remark
00:11:48
Jensen Wang is giving some tough love to
00:11:51
Stanford students he's giving them I
00:11:53
think a good lesson of stop being so
00:11:56
entitled go get some real life
00:11:58
experience
00:11:59
be resilient okay great message I saw
00:12:02
the Zuckerberg clip liked it as well
00:12:04
he's basically speaking from a place of
00:12:07
passion about his own product and
00:12:09
comparing it to Apple okay great that's
00:12:11
what he's supposed to do I don't see any
00:12:13
of those CEOs take again if you want to
00:12:15
compare it to Elon taking a really
00:12:18
dangerous political stance in fact
00:12:20
remember when Zuckerberg got dragged to
00:12:22
cap Hill and gave that testimony and
00:12:25
they demanded that he give that apology
00:12:28
he did it I mean genu flected I thought
00:12:30
that word was banned on this pod only
00:12:33
one applied to
00:12:35
me anybody else can be genu I mean I I
00:12:38
thought he was just showing some
00:12:40
Humanity which is you know kind of
00:12:42
paradoxical look I I get it in that
00:12:44
moment but I'm just saying that like if
00:12:46
you want to put it in the same category
00:12:47
as Elon the thing to do would have been
00:12:49
to punch back and I think in that moment
00:12:52
it was who it was Josh Holly the thing
00:12:53
to do would have been to say no it's
00:12:55
it's you who are exploiting the misery
00:12:57
and suffering of all of these people by
00:12:59
trying to score political points so
00:13:02
anyway I super based yeah yeah that
00:13:04
would have been super based so all I'm
00:13:06
saying is that it's one thing for these
00:13:09
Founders and CEOs to be colorful and
00:13:12
candid or whatever that's all great but
00:13:15
have they really taken political courage
00:13:18
your thoughts jamath on based CEOs well
00:13:22
I think Jason the the takeaway I think
00:13:24
you're almost on the right point but not
00:13:27
quite I don't think this is based or not
00:13:29
based I think the point is everybody is
00:13:32
exhausted with the multiple layers of
00:13:36
word scrambled gymnastics that people
00:13:39
have had to play and they're like
00:13:41
enough's enough I think the more
00:13:43
interesting way to look at this is that
00:13:46
there was a fewe period where a lot of
00:13:49
companies were under a lot of
00:13:51
pressure and folks felt that they
00:13:54
couldn't say what was on their mind to
00:13:56
really fix the problems that they saw
00:13:59
now you have you know both of the
00:14:00
companies and the CEOs you pointed out
00:14:02
are firing on all cylinders as far as
00:14:04
anybody can tell from the outside and
00:14:06
there's a certain level of political
00:14:08
Capital that comes with that and they're
00:14:10
choosing to spend it and I think that's
00:14:12
the interesting takeaway which is as
00:14:14
these companies become successful again
00:14:17
as Tech reemerges again from this
00:14:20
multi-year malaise are folks going to
00:14:24
find their voice or not and I think
00:14:27
that's the big point which is that it
00:14:29
seems at least that we can see this next
00:14:31
generation of winning companies seems to
00:14:34
have CEOs that
00:14:36
will take a different path they'll be
00:14:38
maybe closer than Elon then closer to a
00:14:41
politician yeah it's I loved Wong's
00:14:44
comments just about his secret weapon is
00:14:47
he has incredibly low expectations by
00:14:49
the way if you had said if you had said
00:14:50
that comment a few years ago the whole
00:14:53
pain and suffering thing would somebody
00:14:55
would have said I felt triggered it
00:14:57
touched my childhood trauma you know I
00:14:59
had X Y and Z happen to me and it's not
00:15:02
that those people don't have valid
00:15:04
claims but they would have aired it in a
00:15:06
way that tried to get him cancelled
00:15:09
effectively yeah he would be out of
00:15:10
touch he would be talking down to people
00:15:12
he'd be a billionaire telling people
00:15:15
like to suck it up what and by the way
00:15:16
in In fairness I bet you there are
00:15:19
people that felt that way even today
00:15:20
when listening to his clip the thing
00:15:22
that is different though was the rest of
00:15:24
us who also have had pain and suffering
00:15:26
in our lives retweeted it and was just
00:15:28
like this is 100% awesome yeah I mean
00:15:31
finally candid
00:15:34
advice Elon used to always
00:15:36
say happiness equals this was his
00:15:39
happiness formula happiness
00:15:42
equals expectation reality minus
00:15:45
expectations and so if your expectations
00:15:48
are really high and reality doesn't hit
00:15:50
it you're going to be sad and if you
00:15:51
keep your expectations low and reality
00:15:53
is you know okay or good yeah you you
00:15:55
could be happy in life but freberg I
00:15:58
just love
00:15:59
of those quotes uh maybe some thoughts
00:16:02
about suffering and how hard it is
00:16:04
you're back in the CEO's
00:16:06
seat how's that been going for you
00:16:09
generally speaking how hard is it
00:16:11
compared to being a capital allocator
00:16:12
I'm curious I was going to talk to you
00:16:14
about that offline anyway I probably
00:16:16
have an
00:16:18
unhealthy affinity for suffering I think
00:16:23
that if you come
00:16:26
from certain backgrounds you're sort of
00:16:30
trained that that's the place that your
00:16:34
unconscious tends to want to
00:16:36
be and I think that that also some
00:16:39
people call it chips on shoulders some
00:16:42
people call it motivation I mean look at
00:16:44
your friend Elon how much suffering he
00:16:47
puts his himself
00:16:49
through I think it's a requisite to to
00:16:52
Greatness is you have to really find
00:16:54
ways to sacrifice now if I've said this
00:16:56
a lot there's a reason a lot of people
00:16:59
that have had success in their career
00:17:01
don't end up being great entrepreneurs
00:17:04
because as soon as you're faced with
00:17:05
failure for the first time it doesn't
00:17:08
pattern match to what's happened to you
00:17:10
historically I go to a good school I get
00:17:12
good grades I go to Stanford I get a
00:17:14
degree everything about every step you
00:17:16
do you're told if you do X you will get
00:17:18
Y and then you do X and you get Y and
00:17:21
you repeat and at some point you're
00:17:23
considered successful in your education
00:17:25
in your career and so on if you then
00:17:28
decide that on entrepreneurship is the
00:17:29
path for you you realize that
00:17:31
entrepreneurship is that there is no ifx
00:17:34
then y there is ifx maybe y maybe Z
00:17:39
maybe a hundred other things that'll
00:17:40
smack you in the face and that
00:17:42
experience is shockingly different for
00:17:44
people that have historically followed a
00:17:45
path of success of what's defined as
00:17:47
success culturally socially and I think
00:17:50
that that's really what he's speaking to
00:17:52
if you've grown up where all of your
00:17:53
expectations have not been met or many
00:17:55
of the expectations have not been met
00:17:57
you realize that persistence grit
00:17:59
perseverance relentlessness these are
00:18:01
the necessary traits to be successful in
00:18:04
entrepreneurship and I think that I find
00:18:06
myself much happier in that condition
00:18:08
than in any other condition and it's why
00:18:10
I'm actually very happy in the work I'm
00:18:11
doing right now yeah I I think it that
00:18:15
resonates a lot with me and all the
00:18:18
entrepreneurs that I back they all have
00:18:20
that chip and you got to be careful not
00:18:23
to get caught up in the trappings and
00:18:24
really focus on solving problems if you
00:18:26
think about what a CEO does all day you
00:18:28
hire the smartest team you know you give
00:18:31
them the biggest challenges as much
00:18:33
autonomy as you can and then they return
00:18:35
back to you with all the problems the
00:18:37
smartest people you could find to join
00:18:38
your team can't fix so then your life
00:18:41
becomes essentially you know what's left
00:18:44
over that is the most brutal to solve
00:18:47
and you know there's only a certain
00:18:49
percentage of people who can do that day
00:18:52
and and day out just relentlessly be how
00:18:54
do you reconcile how do you reconcile
00:18:56
that statement Jason with
00:18:59
the proposition that people should
00:19:01
become entrepreneurs generally I think
00:19:04
that this really res this really
00:19:06
challenges me whenever people say I'm
00:19:08
thinking about starting a company my
00:19:09
first response is no don't like you have
00:19:12
to be told over and over again to not
00:19:14
start a company to test if they actually
00:19:17
have the resilience and grit necessary
00:19:18
just to take the first step of starting
00:19:20
the company I notion that everyone
00:19:22
should be encouraged to start a company
00:19:24
and entrepreneurism is a is a career
00:19:26
choice I think is a false notion I think
00:19:28
that most most people are not
00:19:30
psychologically equipped for being
00:19:31
successful in entrepreneurship yeah
00:19:33
you're 100% right and I've gotten in my
00:19:35
later years as we run like found
00:19:37
University of these programs when people
00:19:39
are applying and we only accept 10% into
00:19:41
the programs and then only invest in 10%
00:19:44
of those so net net like less than 1%
00:19:46
get funded you know I'll ask them
00:19:48
they're like oh can you give us money so
00:19:50
I can get a
00:19:51
co-founder and I'm like you know what
00:19:53
you failed the first test of being an
00:19:55
entrepreneur you know the first test of
00:19:57
being an entrepreneur is can you
00:19:59
convince two or three people to go on
00:20:00
this crazy Journey with you because it's
00:20:02
important and without money and you know
00:20:05
people expect oh you're going to just
00:20:06
give them the money because they have an
00:20:08
interesting idea and then I asked them
00:20:09
what's your skill what do you do at the
00:20:11
startup do you sell the product do you
00:20:12
build the product and a lot of people do
00:20:14
not have the wherewithal to add a skill
00:20:19
that the world needs being a developer a
00:20:21
ux designer A salesperson whatever it is
00:20:24
right they don't have any skill and then
00:20:27
they also have no ability to convince
00:20:29
somebody else with skills to start a
00:20:31
company you if you if you can't have
00:20:34
marketable important skills yourself
00:20:36
that you taught yourself on your own
00:20:39
through sheer force of motivation and
00:20:41
will and opening up YouTube which really
00:20:43
is not hard people like anybody can
00:20:46
learn to code to be a ux designer to be
00:20:48
a salesperson all this is on some
00:20:51
online course some book some YouTube
00:20:53
video some podcast so just learn some
00:20:55
marketable skills that a startup needs
00:20:57
and if you can't do that you shouldn't
00:20:59
be a Founder I think the point is that
00:21:02
everybody's capable of being a founder
00:21:04
and anybody can and should start a
00:21:06
company it's just that very few can
00:21:07
finish a company and that is the
00:21:10
resilience part where there's just so
00:21:13
many ups and downs and you have to be
00:21:15
able to roll and survive and you have to
00:21:18
just problem solve constantly and yeah
00:21:20
there are very few people that are cut
00:21:22
up for it you have to be comfortable
00:21:24
with failure you have to be comfortable
00:21:25
with expectations not being met that's
00:21:28
the important Point that he's making I
00:21:30
can't tell you how important it was
00:21:31
early in my career I had several cold
00:21:33
calling jobs where I cold called college
00:21:35
kids I cold called alumni I cold called
00:21:38
CEOs I had three different cold calling
00:21:39
jobs and getting rejection after
00:21:42
rejection failing in my life I didn't
00:21:44
get into any schools except for Berkeley
00:21:46
because Berkeley didn't take teacher
00:21:48
recommendations teachers I did not do
00:21:50
well in school and then playing poker
00:21:52
taught me a lot because playing poker
00:21:54
you lose hands you lose hands you lose
00:21:56
hands you lose hands you have to just
00:21:58
make sure that you're making the right
00:21:59
decisions and over time the money will
00:22:00
come to you the positive EV will be
00:22:02
there but failure and persisting through
00:22:04
failure I think was one of the most
00:22:05
important traits I had to develop before
00:22:08
I was even ready to start a company
00:22:10
because all that's happening every day
00:22:12
is failure when I had my first magazine
00:22:14
I didn't understand I had just printed
00:22:15
photo copies of and I had like 2,000
00:22:17
copies of this magazine silicon Aly
00:22:19
reporter and I didn't know how to get
00:22:21
them in people's hands so I just got a
00:22:23
luggage cart like a literal luggage cart
00:22:27
I put them in the luggage cart and I
00:22:28
walk walked around Lower Manhattan and I
00:22:30
just dropped them off at internet
00:22:32
companies and I dropped them off at
00:22:34
cafes and then I went to all the Village
00:22:36
Voice boxes and I just slotted them in
00:22:39
in between the village Ro and
00:22:40
miraculously people found it and then
00:22:42
they would subscribe and you know
00:22:44
whatever it took was the approach all
00:22:47
right everybody let's get to our second
00:22:49
topic it's a mini topic but did open AI
00:22:51
just get caught with their hand in the
00:22:52
cookie jar or the training data cookie
00:22:55
jar open AI CTO was interviewed by The
00:22:59
Wall Street Journal this week during the
00:23:00
interview you probably saw this if
00:23:02
you're on X it trended she was asked
00:23:04
what data did opene use to train Sora if
00:23:06
you don't know what Sor is we talked
00:23:07
about it here it's that
00:23:09
incredible you know video create you
00:23:12
know type in a text prompt get a video
00:23:14
back model and uh let's watch this clip
00:23:17
and then discuss it what data was used
00:23:20
to train Sora we used publicly available
00:23:24
data and licensed data so on
00:23:31
YouTube I'm actually not sure about that
00:23:34
okay videos
00:23:35
from Facebook
00:23:38
Instagram you know if they were publicly
00:23:42
available um available yet publicly
00:23:45
available to use um there might be that
00:23:49
data but um I'm I'm not sure I'm not
00:23:51
confident about it let me start with you
00:23:53
chath what are your thoughts here
00:23:56
and just her not being super prepared
00:23:59
there to answer a question or is this a
00:24:01
cookie jar situation what do you think I
00:24:04
mean you got to think the CTO of an
00:24:06
organization that whose job it is to
00:24:08
build models based on training data
00:24:10
knows where the training data is
00:24:12
from my interpretation of that answer is
00:24:16
that she is hesitating because she
00:24:18
doesn't want to make a statement against
00:24:20
interest right I want to show you guys
00:24:22
something I had a friend of mine
00:24:25
somebody we all know who's deep in the
00:24:28
heart of this AI
00:24:30
stuff he was he came to my office and he
00:24:33
showed me this one really interesting
00:24:35
thing which is when you launch chat GPT
00:24:38
and if you go into the microphone but
00:24:41
you say nothing so just wait a few
00:24:42
seconds turn on the microphone wait a
00:24:44
few seconds and turn it off I'll just do
00:24:45
it right now just to show you it comes
00:24:47
back and it says thank you for watching
00:24:49
which is typically what it shows you
00:24:53
when you Auto watch a bunch of YouTube
00:24:55
videos now why is that interesting well
00:24:59
if you say nothing right the model has
00:25:02
clearly then is guessing that whenever
00:25:04
you see you hear
00:25:06
silence that probabilistically the next
00:25:09
best thing to translate that into is
00:25:11
thank you for watching which would mean
00:25:12
that the training happened on a bunch of
00:25:15
content where thank you for watching was
00:25:17
the next obvious thing so that when
00:25:19
there's silence and the most obvious
00:25:22
place where that happens is in YouTube I
00:25:24
don't know I thought that was an
00:25:25
interesting little thing that he pointed
00:25:26
out to me I don't know if anybody's
00:25:27
actually explored this but if it is true
00:25:31
and Google decides they have an issue
00:25:32
with it that's not good for these folks
00:25:35
freberg your thoughts I I think it's
00:25:38
fine I I don't know why this is a
00:25:39
controversial thing wellow I mean it's
00:25:41
obvious she's kind of lying on camera
00:25:44
she definitely knows where the training
00:25:45
data came from and it feels like c c i
00:25:48
mean I mean what YouTube is public so
00:25:51
what's wrong with watching YouTube to
00:25:53
teach a model stuff well you'd have to
00:25:56
get a license to make a derivative
00:25:58
working because we've seen open AI has
00:25:59
been doing that they're in a lawsuit
00:26:01
right now with the New York Times and
00:26:03
they failed to negotiate their license
00:26:05
so is they're making a derivative
00:26:08
work model they've licensed other
00:26:10
people's data
00:26:11
right yeah to get access to it that's
00:26:14
not publicly available you can go to
00:26:15
YouTube downloader and download all this
00:26:17
data you know what's crazy I heard from
00:26:19
someone at Google that under the terms
00:26:21
of service Google's not allowed to train
00:26:23
on YouTube data remember my I made this
00:26:25
point a couple weeks ago about how
00:26:26
important YouTube data is I think
00:26:28
there'd be this really ironic handicap
00:26:30
that Google's done to itself where
00:26:32
anyone else can access and download and
00:26:34
watch YouTube data to train models but
00:26:37
Google cannot I don't know if there's
00:26:39
any Clarity on that but it's a pretty
00:26:40
crazy fact pattern but yeah YouTube's on
00:26:42
the internet and I feel like anything
00:26:43
that's on the open internet should be
00:26:45
watchable by these models I don't
00:26:46
consider training models to be
00:26:48
generation of derivative work that's my
00:26:50
position and that's a position that
00:26:53
opening eye is taking the other side of
00:26:54
that position CU they're going around
00:26:56
licensing data sax any other thoughts
00:26:57
here about this corrup level well look I
00:27:00
kind of agree with both you and freeberg
00:27:03
in terms of the part that I agree with
00:27:04
freeberg I think that this issue is kind
00:27:06
of more of the same of what we've been
00:27:08
talking about for a while which is
00:27:10
clearly open AI trained its model on
00:27:12
publicly available data that was
00:27:14
available on the on the internet I agree
00:27:16
with freeberg that uh fair use Doctrine
00:27:19
should be applied to that I know that
00:27:20
you have a different point of view on
00:27:21
that Jal I don't know if we need to
00:27:23
rehash that I I understand that you
00:27:25
don't think fair use should apply in any
00:27:27
event
00:27:28
I think it's pretty clear that open AI
00:27:31
train Sora using you know available data
00:27:34
on the internet and that probably
00:27:36
included YouTube the part where I agree
00:27:39
with you jcal is that I don't know if I
00:27:41
would say that she's lying per se but I
00:27:45
think she's probably
00:27:47
concerned that if she comes right out
00:27:50
and and answers the question as directly
00:27:52
as she could that it could be a problem
00:27:54
for them in all these lawsuits that
00:27:56
they're now facing you know again think
00:27:58
that I would take the side in those
00:28:01
lawsuits that fer should be allowed but
00:28:03
I think that probably she is being
00:28:05
careful here because they are facing so
00:28:08
many lawsuits about this training data
00:28:09
it's going to be pretty clear chth I
00:28:11
think what the courts will decide here
00:28:13
which is who's opportunity is it to make
00:28:16
a SORA in the world if Disney owns a
00:28:19
massive collection of Ip and somebody
00:28:21
should be able to use that IP to make
00:28:23
derivative Works should it be Sora or
00:28:25
should it be Disney itself and so I
00:28:28
think the journalists know full well
00:28:31
what they're doing and now the
00:28:32
journalists have their hooks into this
00:28:34
for a very real reason the journalists
00:28:37
are also content creators so now we're
00:28:39
going to have this you know two sides
00:28:41
forming journalist I just worry that
00:28:43
these folks are not technical enough to
00:28:44
make this decision and you know when it
00:28:46
goes into a court how is a judge really
00:28:49
going to understand the nuances of this
00:28:51
to make a to make a call on this or the
00:28:53
jury it's going to be a big education
00:28:56
process yeah yeah or the jury yeah
00:28:58
speaking of AI vertical AI startups are
00:29:00
starting to Make Some Noise we all know
00:29:03
about large language models we've talked
00:29:05
about them here if you listen to this
00:29:06
program you know about open AI Google's
00:29:09
Gemini previously known as Bard
00:29:11
anthropic Claude all this stuff their
00:29:13
general purpose they've been trained on
00:29:15
the open internet as we were just
00:29:17
discussing so they can answer questions
00:29:19
about almost anything and yeah sometimes
00:29:21
it's correct sometimes they're incorrect
00:29:24
but it's showing promise there is
00:29:25
another school of thought here that's
00:29:28
emerging in startups vertical AI these
00:29:30
companies are kind of taking a job title
00:29:33
a role in society and they are building
00:29:37
vertical apps Harvey is AI for lawyers a
00:29:40
bridge is doing an AI notaker for
00:29:42
doctors saves them hours a day according
00:29:45
to them tax GPT is an AI tax assistant
00:29:49
NC is AI for customer support that's
00:29:51
Brett teller's new startup this week a
00:29:54
startup called cognition debuted a tool
00:29:56
called Devon they're calling it an AI
00:29:58
software engineer the demos went viral
00:29:59
on X uh you probably seen them all over
00:30:01
the place and in the news if you watch
00:30:03
it you can see Devon fixing bugs in real
00:30:06
time fine-tuning an AI model building
00:30:08
apps end to end and people are
00:30:10
speculating Devon was built on GPT 4
00:30:14
from open AI That's not
00:30:16
confirmed but according to the CEO Devon
00:30:18
was built by tweaking reasoning and
00:30:20
long-term planning into an existing llm
00:30:24
here's how it ranks against other major
00:30:26
models on coding benchmarks they're
00:30:28
building all these benchmarks to test
00:30:30
each language model and as you can see
00:30:32
it's according to this chart and
00:30:34
according to their data doing much
00:30:37
better than just a generic language
00:30:39
model kind of makes sense jamat did you
00:30:41
see these demos this week I think I saw
00:30:43
you on the group chat talking about it
00:30:46
and what was your take on these
00:30:48
role-based vertical startups oh I think
00:30:51
this is so powerful I mean it's
00:30:54
incredible because we're measuring this
00:30:55
progress in like what week over week
00:30:58
feels like that yeah I think the point
00:31:01
that you should take away is that
00:31:04
the
00:31:06
most of these very difficult in
00:31:09
impenetrable job types for the average
00:31:12
person if this if you said to them hey
00:31:13
become a developer that's like a
00:31:15
complicated Journey
00:31:18
right it's just going to be now
00:31:22
like a command line interface where you
00:31:24
just kind of describe in English what
00:31:26
you want to do and all all of this stuff
00:31:28
will just happen behind the scenes and
00:31:30
it'll be totally automated so that'll
00:31:32
grow the number of people that can use
00:31:36
these tools at the same time it'll make
00:31:38
the developers I think even more valued
00:31:41
because you're going to need people in
00:31:42
the guts of these models and in the code
00:31:46
that it generates because it's not
00:31:47
always going to work perfectly there's
00:31:48
always going to be some kind of
00:31:49
hallucination some stuff is not going to
00:31:51
compile now the demos that they did
00:31:53
though were incredible they were able to
00:31:55
find errors they were able to remediate
00:31:56
errors in code
00:31:58
that's I mean I just I think it's really
00:32:01
really special you've been on co-pilots
00:32:04
for the past year talking about that
00:32:06
this is slightly different we're moving
00:32:08
from hey here's a co-pilot somebody
00:32:10
helping a developer to hey here's a
00:32:12
developer working and now they have a
00:32:15
supervisor so what do you think of these
00:32:17
sort of role-based agents and how
00:32:19
quickly we went from year one
00:32:21
co-piloting to okay now they're the
00:32:24
pilot and we're sitting in the co-pilot
00:32:26
seat watching them fly the plane
00:32:29
yeah well look F first of all everyone's
00:32:30
working on autonomous coding or working
00:32:32
towards that this is like one of the
00:32:34
core most obvious use cases of llms
00:32:38
because code is text and it can also be
00:32:40
run through a compiler to debug it so
00:32:43
you can also get to in theory you can
00:32:45
get to high levels of accuracy yet
00:32:47
although in the example that you gave
00:32:49
Jason this new product was only at 133%
00:32:52
so there's still a long way to go but
00:32:54
the potential is clearly there so a lot
00:32:57
lot of companies are working on some
00:33:00
variation of this
00:33:02
idea Devon is I guess you could call it
00:33:04
an agent first approach and I think
00:33:08
that's very cool for generating new
00:33:11
software projects but where I think this
00:33:13
gets much trickier and is much more
00:33:16
difficult is when you're working in
00:33:17
existing code bases and just to talk my
00:33:20
own book for a second we're an investor
00:33:22
in a company called Source graph they
00:33:24
have a product called Cody and their
00:33:26
whole approach is context first as
00:33:27
opposed to agent first it's all about
00:33:29
getting the co-pilot to work inside of
00:33:32
existing code bases so different
00:33:34
companies are coming at this from
00:33:35
different approaches GitHub co-pilot I
00:33:36
think is kind of more like Cody where
00:33:39
it's all about making an existing code
00:33:41
base more useful whereas Devon again is
00:33:44
starting with I think net new code bases
00:33:47
but that's going to demo really well and
00:33:49
so that's what you're seeing is like
00:33:50
these really cool Demos in any event the
00:33:52
larger picture here is that we are going
00:33:54
to get better at better at COD cing
00:33:58
autonomously I guess you could say and I
00:34:01
don't know if it gets ever gets to 100%
00:34:03
where you don't need coders anymore but
00:34:05
it's going to make coders much more
00:34:07
productive over time you're going to get
00:34:08
this huge multiplier effect on the
00:34:11
ability to write code and that's really
00:34:13
exciting for a bunch of obvious reasons
00:34:16
free BR we've been tracking this
00:34:18
Evolution from you know Gmail guess the
00:34:20
next word guess the next phrase guess
00:34:23
the next sentence to co-pilots now we
00:34:26
have these role-based agent
00:34:29
based solutions that startups are
00:34:32
pursuing what's next if we follow this
00:34:36
thread what would the next Evolution
00:34:38
here be well the big push has been for
00:34:40
this notion of AGI to replace a
00:34:42
human and I think what we're seeing
00:34:47
is software that replaces a specific
00:34:53
human doing a specific thing like being
00:34:55
a lawyer being an accountant
00:34:58
being an art director if you think about
00:35:00
the internet when the internet which was
00:35:03
like networking software and the
00:35:04
capabilities that arose from the
00:35:06
connection of all these computers during
00:35:08
the internet era The Innovation was
00:35:09
everyone tried to create a business
00:35:11
model which was how do you take an
00:35:13
existing vertical business and put it on
00:35:15
the internet I think what we're seeing
00:35:17
in this era is everyone's taking a
00:35:19
vertical human and creating a vertical
00:35:21
version of a human um in the AI era and
00:35:25
so um I think like the the success will
00:35:29
probably ACR to one company that
00:35:32
replaces one set of core human services
00:35:35
like being a lawyer being an
00:35:37
accountant you know being an artist in
00:35:40
whatever way and that that ends up being
00:35:44
the specific vertical tool that people
00:35:46
will use to automate and scale up their
00:35:50
ability to do that task in an automated
00:35:52
way because I think that there's like a
00:35:53
great deal
00:35:55
of capability that emerges in the fine
00:35:57
tuning and the unique data that certain
00:35:59
people may have to make that one tool
00:36:01
better than the rest and therefore
00:36:03
everyone will end up using this one
00:36:04
lawyer service or this one Accounting
00:36:07
Service or what have you so I definitely
00:36:08
think that's kind of what we're seeing
00:36:10
yeah I think it's pretty obvious where
00:36:12
this is going you got co-pilots
00:36:14
assisting a developer or a lawyer then
00:36:17
the next or a writer then they got the
00:36:19
next phase okay you've got a peer so
00:36:21
you're doing peer programming or
00:36:22
somebody's kind of working alongside you
00:36:24
you're checking their work hey maybe
00:36:26
they're even checking your work seeing
00:36:27
if you have bugs where this is going to
00:36:29
be next year is there's going to be a
00:36:30
conductor there's going to be somebody
00:36:32
who has a role or a piece of software
00:36:35
has a role where you say hey you're a
00:36:37
CEO of a company you're a Founder a
00:36:39
product manager here's your lawyer
00:36:41
here's your accountant here's your
00:36:42
developers here's your designer and now
00:36:45
you will coordinate those five people
00:36:48
now imagine how that changes startups
00:36:50
when you as an individual have a
00:36:52
conductor working with you and says you
00:36:54
know what I don't know if I agree with
00:36:56
this legal advice that's coming in in
00:36:57
relation to the tax advice and maybe we
00:37:00
should not even add this feature to the
00:37:02
program let's talk to the product
00:37:04
manager the agent product manager about
00:37:06
taking that feature out so we don't have
00:37:07
these Downstream legal issues and we
00:37:09
don't even have to file taxes in this
00:37:11
you know area it's going to get really
00:37:12
interesting next year when they have a
00:37:14
conductor the other way it may go Jason
00:37:16
is you have a lawyer that has 50
00:37:20
Associates working for them through the
00:37:21
AI so you don't replace the lawyer you
00:37:24
don't replace the software engineer the
00:37:26
software engineer level up and now the
00:37:28
software engineer has 50 Engineers
00:37:30
available 50 agents running doing tasks
00:37:32
for them you do still you do still need
00:37:34
humans with domain expertise and
00:37:37
creativity to Think Through architecture
00:37:38
to Think Through process and to make
00:37:40
sure that the AI agents are doing their
00:37:43
job so I think what it creates is
00:37:45
extraordinary leverage for people and
00:37:46
organizations which is why generally
00:37:48
economic productivity goes up people
00:37:50
don't lose jobs they level up in this
00:37:52
phase the the Opex of companies will
00:37:55
probably be cut in half mhm
00:37:58
at the limit I think Jason is actually
00:38:01
absolutely right I think you find that
00:38:03
there'll be millions of companies with
00:38:05
one person and then a whole layer of
00:38:07
software and conductors and agents and
00:38:09
Bots that's the future yeah so you won't
00:38:12
have these engineering people that
00:38:14
person should be running their own
00:38:15
company and so you'll just have millions
00:38:17
and millions and millions and maybe
00:38:19
billions of companies and I think that
00:38:20
that's really exciting not all of them
00:38:23
will work many of them will fail and a
00:38:25
few of them will be ginormous
00:38:27
and it'll be up to the person who can
00:38:30
navigate and be a conductor as you said
00:38:32
you know yeah be really interesting the
00:38:35
solo entrepreneur movement of the last
00:38:36
couple years there were all these kind
00:38:38
of like independent hackers building one
00:38:40
item like Phil Kaplan did with um drro
00:38:43
kid he just had like two or three people
00:38:44
working on that got very big you know I
00:38:47
was telling you guys about that slopes
00:38:49
app I showed you I I I reached out to
00:38:50
the founder of that I was like hey tell
00:38:51
me about the business like it's enough
00:38:53
of a business to support one person or
00:38:55
two people like there will be a lot of
00:38:56
these app apps or Services one
00:38:59
conductor and you know it makes what
00:39:01
half million a year three million a year
00:39:02
whatever it's enough to support one two
00:39:04
three people working on it but
00:39:06
previously you know you going to the
00:39:08
Venture Community like oh what did it
00:39:10
take a modern app company Sachs to kind
00:39:13
of build an Android and a an IOS app
00:39:17
just you know five 10 years ago if we
00:39:18
were funding one 10 years ago what would
00:39:21
the footprint look like for you know a
00:39:24
consumer app company if you're going to
00:39:26
go all the way back to like the late 90s
00:39:29
during theom era I remember that with
00:39:32
PayPal just to launch really what was an
00:39:35
MVP we had I'd say a dozen developers
00:39:38
and it was pretty expensive and we had
00:39:40
to set up our own Colo there was all
00:39:42
this infrastructure that all got
00:39:44
distracted away with AWS then you moved
00:39:46
to the mobile er uh and the app stores
00:39:50
provide there there's just a lot more
00:39:52
developer tools lot more apis yeah well
00:39:54
as well as distribution but it's just
00:39:56
it's far easier to code these apps so
00:39:58
definitely things have gotten easier and
00:39:59
easier that's the trend if that's the
00:40:01
point you're trying to make it's
00:40:03
certainly never been easier to get
00:40:05
started in creating something if you're
00:40:07
a solo developer yeah that being said I
00:40:10
think that depending on what you're
00:40:12
trying to do it's still usually the case
00:40:16
that if you're trying to do something
00:40:17
interesting and profound you're going to
00:40:19
need a small team of developers and a
00:40:22
couple million bucks to get you started
00:40:24
yeah it used to be rul of themb I think
00:40:26
12 people for an app company you got two
00:40:28
or three working on each platform a
00:40:29
couple designers couple of
00:40:32
testing and uh design ux yeah you get to
00:40:35
10 12 people to to run a modern one all
00:40:38
right everybody next issue the house
00:40:41
just passed a bill that would either ban
00:40:44
Tik Tok or force a sale talked about
00:40:46
this bill being proposed last week and
00:40:49
things had moved really slowly on the
00:40:51
Tik Tock band now they're moving really
00:40:53
fast on Wednesday the house passed the
00:40:55
bill with a bipartisan vote of 350 2 to
00:40:58
65 making this one of the few subjects
00:41:01
that members of Congress can agree on
00:41:03
Biden has also signaled his intent to
00:41:05
sign the bill into law should it pass
00:41:07
the Senate passing the Senate that could
00:41:08
be an obstacle Democratic Majority
00:41:10
Leader Chuck Schumer has signaled a lack
00:41:13
of interest in the subject instead he'll
00:41:14
review the bill with committee chairs
00:41:16
before deciding on the path forward
00:41:17
Arguments for and against the bill have
00:41:19
centered around a few main points
00:41:21
reciprocity we talked about that here
00:41:23
you can't use Instagram X or any of our
00:41:26
domestic social networks in China and if
00:41:29
they won't allow us in their country why
00:41:31
should we give them unrestricted access
00:41:32
to ours stifling debate progressives
00:41:35
fear this isn't really about National
00:41:37
Security uh their position is mainstream
00:41:41
politicians are hoping to shut down
00:41:42
political discourse particularly among
00:41:45
the youth who are mostly on Tik Tok
00:41:48
particularly Pro Palestinian and
00:41:50
anti-israel discourse which seems to
00:41:52
flourish on Tik Tok versus other
00:41:54
platforms
00:41:55
coincidentally Joe Biden launched a Tik
00:41:58
Tok account last month and his comments
00:42:01
were instantly flooded with Pro
00:42:02
Palestinian remarks some calling him
00:42:05
genocide
00:42:07
Joe third argument overreach some sax I
00:42:11
think you've pointed out that the
00:42:12
language in this law is a bit vague it
00:42:14
needs to be tightened up maybe uh the
00:42:17
president could go after companies
00:42:19
supposedly aligned with foreign interest
00:42:21
who aren't our esteemed Patriot and
00:42:23
friend Keith raboy argued with you saxs
00:42:26
on this on X and then there are guys
00:42:28
like Trump and VC who I believe are
00:42:31
flip-flopping based on securing bags VC
00:42:33
called ticktock digital Fentanyl and
00:42:36
Trump issued an executive order calling
00:42:38
for bik dance to divest Tik Tock in 2020
00:42:41
now they're both opposing the ban and
00:42:45
interestingly both Trump and VC have
00:42:47
ties to the Republican megad Dona
00:42:49
Jeffrey Yas who is a major shareholder
00:42:52
in bite dance with a reported 15 to30
00:42:56
billion do stake he gave VC 5 million
00:42:59
bucks who knows what Trump's gotten but
00:43:02
they said they're back in love Sach you
00:43:04
had this big back and forth with Keith
00:43:06
raboy on X are you in support of the
00:43:10
divestiture or not I haven't been able
00:43:13
to track exactly where you're at at
00:43:15
this well I think my take on this and
00:43:18
I'm GNA have to revise and extend my
00:43:20
remarks from last week cuz I didn't know
00:43:21
as much about the bill I hadn't actually
00:43:23
read the language yet and now I have and
00:43:26
my take on this
00:43:27
is that the bill poses a significant
00:43:30
risk of being Patriot Act 2.0 so in
00:43:33
other words you know a threat to the
00:43:36
security of the United States is
00:43:38
basically hyped up some part of it may
00:43:40
be real some of it may be threat
00:43:42
inflation and then we give the
00:43:44
intelligence community and the
00:43:45
government new powers which can then be
00:43:48
abused and that's exactly what happened
00:43:50
with the Patriot Act they ended up
00:43:51
spying on Americans now what is the
00:43:53
potential abuse here this is a thing
00:43:55
that I've debated with Keith and there's
00:43:59
also other people who I respect a lot
00:44:02
and Keith by the way is a very talented
00:44:03
lawyer in addition to other things being
00:44:05
a successful founder and investor an
00:44:10
investor and then you know I saw that
00:44:12
sear and and Jetty whose show I was just
00:44:14
on thinks that the bill is just fine so
00:44:16
look there are people very legit people
00:44:19
who disagree with me about this but I
00:44:21
went last night and I read this bill
00:44:23
like four times to try and like parse
00:44:25
the language and I've just come away
00:44:27
concluding there's no the way I see it
00:44:30
there's no way to argue that this
00:44:32
language isn't vague and could invite
00:44:35
abuse and you really have to dig into it
00:44:38
but let me just kind of walk you through
00:44:40
I think a key part of it so first of all
00:44:44
this bill doesn't just ban or Force the
00:44:47
destor of Tik Tok it goes after what it
00:44:51
calls foreign adversary controlled
00:44:54
applications now what is a foreign
00:44:55
adversary there there are four countries
00:44:58
that are defined as foreign adversaries
00:45:00
it's basically Russia China Iran and
00:45:03
North Korea I'm not super worried about
00:45:06
that list of foreign adversaries growing
00:45:08
because that does take a bunch of
00:45:10
procedural Hoops to go through it what I
00:45:12
am concerned about is when the bill
00:45:15
talks about what makes a company
00:45:18
controlled by a foreign
00:45:20
adversary and if you go to that language
00:45:23
which is then definition so you know
00:45:25
what frequently happens with these bill
00:45:27
is a lot of the meat is actually in the
00:45:28
definitions you have to look at this
00:45:29
very carefully it says here the term
00:45:32
control by a foreign adversary means
00:45:34
with respect to a covered company that
00:45:36
such company or entity is and then
00:45:38
there's three categories the first
00:45:39
category is a foreign person which can
00:45:42
also mean a foreign corporation that's
00:45:44
domiciled in or is headquartered or has
00:45:46
his principal place of business or is
00:45:48
organized under the law of foreign
00:45:49
adversary country so that would be like
00:45:51
bite dance okay bite dance is a Chinese
00:45:53
company okay then it says or it can be
00:45:57
an entity where 20% of the ownership
00:46:00
group is in that foreign person category
00:46:03
so that would be like you let's say you
00:46:05
had a US company but 20% of the company
00:46:08
was owned by I don't know Chinese VCS or
00:46:12
by bite dance okay that would also be a
00:46:16
controlled by a foreign adversary then
00:46:18
you get to the provision that I think is
00:46:20
the most problematic which is it's a
00:46:23
person subject to the direction or
00:46:25
control of of a foreign person or entity
00:46:28
the novel language here is where it says
00:46:31
subject to the direction of okay it's
00:46:34
not just saying under the control of
00:46:36
it's saying subject to the direction of
00:46:39
in my view that's very vague and a
00:46:43
creative prosecutor a creative attorney
00:46:45
general could try to say well wait a
00:46:47
second if Elon has a major uh Tesla
00:46:51
Factory in Shanghai is he subject to the
00:46:55
direction of the Chinese Communist party
00:46:58
because they could influence him they
00:46:59
could leverage him if Donald Trump is
00:47:03
Accused on virtually a daily basis of
00:47:05
being a Russian asset is he subject to
00:47:08
the direction of Vladimir Putin David
00:47:11
from just tweeted very recently that he
00:47:13
said not only Trump but the entire
00:47:15
Republican party that works for Trump is
00:47:18
under the direction of Russ partisan
00:47:21
hack though like that's not like actual
00:47:23
factual in a court right so this would
00:47:25
have to be proven factual in a for it
00:47:27
okay do you think or no well the AG
00:47:31
could open an
00:47:32
investigation based on the theory that
00:47:35
for example Trump owns true social and
00:47:38
Trump is under the direction of a
00:47:40
foreign adversary I.E Putin because the
00:47:42
mainstream media continues to normalize
00:47:45
this idea and spread this idea on
00:47:47
virtually a daily basis so the point is
00:47:50
that look first the AG would open an
00:47:52
investigation you think about the
00:47:54
sledgehammer type of remedy here that an
00:47:58
Elon or a trump or a uh you take Rumble
00:48:03
for example which is also accused of
00:48:05
being a Russian agent they could be
00:48:07
forced to devest the company or to to
00:48:10
have it be banned so it gives huge I
00:48:13
think new powers to the executive branch
00:48:17
to pursue political opponents and
00:48:19
political enemies whether they actually
00:48:21
win in a court of law down the road is
00:48:24
kind of secondary because they can Vex
00:48:27
and harass their political enemies using
00:48:29
this power so my point is that at a
00:48:31
minimum I think this language needs to
00:48:33
get cleaned up I think it is way too
00:48:36
vague and you still have the issue of
00:48:39
whether it's a good idea or not to force
00:48:42
the Banning or divesture of Tik Tok but
00:48:44
this bill goes Way Beyond it again it
00:48:46
creates this novel category of foreign
00:48:50
adversary controlled applications which
00:48:52
also like I said includes websites and
00:48:54
that means not just foreign compan
00:48:57
but domestic companies as well that are
00:48:59
said to be under the direction of a
00:49:01
foreign actor so again I I don't know
00:49:04
how anyone can look at this language and
00:49:06
not say it's too vague yeah it's easy
00:49:09
enough tighten it up and if it was
00:49:10
tightened up you'd be in favor of the
00:49:12
Tik Tok man I take it sax or divesture I
00:49:15
should say keep I keep saying ban You'
00:49:16
still want the Chinese government to not
00:49:18
have control of this or or bite dance
00:49:20
yeah I still have very mixed feelings
00:49:22
about the idea of just the the Tik Tok
00:49:25
band because look you're talking about
00:49:27
an app that 100 million Americans
00:49:30
use for something like 90 minutes a day
00:49:33
so people obviously get a lot of value
00:49:34
out of this I've yet to see the the hard
00:49:38
proof that this app is under the control
00:49:41
of the CCP I mean I know that allegation
00:49:43
is made I can understand why on
00:49:45
journalists already yeah but uh it's
00:49:48
it's very unclear to me that they have
00:49:51
the goods on that and I do think that
00:49:53
depriving Americans of the right to use
00:49:56
the app that they clearly enjoy and love
00:50:00
based on a threat that has yet to be
00:50:02
proven that makes me I'm deeply
00:50:05
ambivalent about that shth if we were to
00:50:07
look at say media channels newspapers
00:50:11
there's been rules about foreign
00:50:13
ownership of those do you believe Tik
00:50:15
Tok kind of falls into that as sack said
00:50:17
Americans are enjoying this in a massive
00:50:20
way 100 million plus 90 minutes a day
00:50:22
and the statistics are crazy that
00:50:23
actually I think argues for you know not
00:50:27
having a foreign adversary own this or
00:50:29
have access to it we wouldn't allow them
00:50:31
to own
00:50:31
CNN Fox New York Times Washington Post
00:50:34
Etc we have rules against that already
00:50:36
so are you in favor of this Tik Tock
00:50:39
divesture yes or
00:50:42
no yeah okay you have it uh freeberg uh
00:50:48
would love to have you hold on I'd like
00:50:49
to hear I'd like to hear him expand on
00:50:51
that um I'll I'll tell you before I tell
00:50:54
you why I'll tell you a quick story
00:50:57
two or three months ago after Joker was
00:50:59
sick we started to make his own dog food
00:51:02
right so to have like a super bland diet
00:51:05
and we had the service that was sending
00:51:07
us food and we got rid of it and we
00:51:09
would just make it ourselves and part of
00:51:12
the
00:51:13
meal was like some raw apples and
00:51:16
carrots that I that I would cut up and I
00:51:18
would always complain to that I'm like I
00:51:20
hate peeling these apples or whatever
00:51:23
slicing them and taking the core out
00:51:25
just just said that for the next month
00:51:29
and a half all I got was Apple coring
00:51:32
utensils on Tik Tok and she was like oh
00:51:35
you know we should get rid of XYZ food
00:51:37
service and she would just get plastered
00:51:39
with these ads and it was just a
00:51:42
reminder to me that these apps are
00:51:44
constantly listening now that's a benign
00:51:46
example but my phone is on my desk when
00:51:49
I'm talking about some really important
00:51:51
stuff again important related to me both
00:51:54
personal and professional there's lots
00:51:57
of money on the line there's moments
00:51:59
where for certain parts of my business
00:52:02
like with crypto we have like 19 layers
00:52:05
of people that have to you have
00:52:08
passwords upon passwords upon passwords
00:52:09
to do stuff the phone is always
00:52:12
there it was just a reminder to me so I
00:52:14
deleted Tik Tok it's gone which sucks
00:52:17
because I would relax with that app at
00:52:20
night like you know I would have 15 20
00:52:22
minutes where I would de impressed it's
00:52:24
super fun it's a great app I have to be
00:52:26
honest with you I love it but as a
00:52:31
consumer that was the decision I made as
00:52:33
a business person what I'll say
00:52:36
is it is inconceivable to me that our
00:52:42
voice signatures aren't being mapped and
00:52:46
there isn't a massive sort of file and
00:52:49
repository that is understanding what
00:52:52
we're all saying and it's then further
00:52:55
inconceivable to me
00:52:57
that there isn't a service that's in
00:52:59
identifying that this is probably
00:53:00
davidaks and this is Cham and this is
00:53:03
freeberg and we're not really all that
00:53:05
important but let's take a better
00:53:07
example this is Elon Musk this is the
00:53:09
president of the United States this is
00:53:11
or the waiter that works for the
00:53:13
president who has his phone in his
00:53:14
pocket while he's sitting inside the you
00:53:18
know the the the residences of the white
00:53:20
house so I think it's happening I think
00:53:24
they're not the only one though I think
00:53:25
there's America companies that are doing
00:53:27
it
00:53:28
too and so I think that we need to start
00:53:32
somewhere until we can have our apps in
00:53:35
a
00:53:36
market they shouldn't have their apps
00:53:39
here and I think that should be the end
00:53:41
of it completely reasonable I think I'm
00:53:43
going to disagree I think a couple
00:53:46
points I don't believe in the notion of
00:53:50
like Reciprocity for reciprocity sake
00:53:53
China blocks access to us content does
00:53:56
that mean that the US government should
00:53:57
block access to International content I
00:53:59
think the answer is no because this
00:54:01
country is different than China we have
00:54:04
afforded ourselves freedoms and
00:54:06
Liberties that don't exist in other
00:54:08
countries Freedom of Choice freedom of
00:54:10
speech freedom of the press and so on so
00:54:13
I don't think that the government should
00:54:14
be restricting access to content because
00:54:17
another country restricts access to our
00:54:19
content I think that we should make
00:54:20
decisions based on what's right for the
00:54:23
citizens what's right for the country
00:54:24
what's right for National Security what
00:54:25
about spying apps so that's a that's
00:54:28
that's my my next point so I do think
00:54:30
that if there is a case to be made that
00:54:33
there is spying or data acquisition
00:54:34
that's going on through these apps we're
00:54:36
not talking about rice noodles over here
00:54:38
you know we're talking about spy so I
00:54:41
think if if that's true then I would
00:54:43
imagine that there are multiple paths to
00:54:45
alleviate that like move all the servers
00:54:47
to the US and separate the entity force
00:54:49
a sale you know like I I think I I don't
00:54:51
think that it's necessarily appropriate
00:54:54
to say that there aren't other coures or
00:54:56
other options available to try and
00:54:59
prohibit what should generally be
00:55:01
prohibited which is spying on American
00:55:04
citizens and capturing data that people
00:55:07
you know haven't opted into being
00:55:09
captured I do believe that citizens and
00:55:11
people should have the right to decide
00:55:13
if they want to have their data used to
00:55:15
be able to access an app I actually am
00:55:17
not a big believer that we should be
00:55:19
paternalistic in the government sense
00:55:20
and saying having the government come in
00:55:22
and say Here's an app and we have
00:55:25
determined that that it is not good for
00:55:27
you because this data is being used in a
00:55:28
manipulative way against you I think
00:55:30
that citizens should be afforded
00:55:32
transparency and make a decision about
00:55:33
whether or not they want to participate
00:55:35
I don't think I don't think citizens
00:55:37
have the sophistication to understand
00:55:38
what foreign adversaries again we only
00:55:41
have four so they were named there for a
00:55:43
reason are doing with our data and I
00:55:45
don't think that they
00:55:47
should have to be forced to choose I
00:55:49
think that you know this is not
00:55:50
dissimilar to how the FDA says you're
00:55:53
not qualified to decide whether this
00:55:54
drug is good we will tell you and people
00:55:57
are okay with that because you are
00:55:59
saying this is part of the government
00:56:00
infrastructure that's full of experts
00:56:02
who know the totality of a subject and
00:56:05
so the problem is in order for anybody
00:56:06
to make a reasonable decision you'd have
00:56:08
to share so much as to just completely
00:56:10
blow up a bunch of National Security
00:56:12
which is not going to happen well look I
00:56:13
think we can have audit rights and we
00:56:15
can have rights that protect our
00:56:16
citizens I think that that's appropriate
00:56:18
I I I'll also say my my final point on
00:56:20
this I think that whether it's
00:56:22
intentional or not this sort of action
00:56:25
leads to inevitable cronyism and
00:56:27
Regulatory capture who does this benefit
00:56:30
if Tik Tok gets banned in the US it's
00:56:31
going to benefit meta it's going to
00:56:33
benefit Instagram it's going to benefit
00:56:35
a few other you know social n it's going
00:56:37
to benefit Elon at Twitter there's a few
00:56:39
folks that are going to benefit pretty
00:56:41
significantly if Tik Tok is banned
00:56:43
because all those users are going to
00:56:44
migrate I will also say by the way that
00:56:46
many thousands of people make their
00:56:47
living on Tik Tok like it or not it's a
00:56:50
big income stream for a lot of people in
00:56:51
the US and a really important part of
00:56:53
their livelihood and just to be clear
00:56:54
here this is not about Banning Tik Tok
00:56:57
this is about divesture then if it's not
00:56:59
divested then it gets banned so if you
00:57:02
just think from first principles here
00:57:04
why wouldn't they divest it why would CP
00:57:08
keep this the reason is this is a
00:57:11
incredibly powerful tool under no
00:57:13
circumstances would the Chinese
00:57:16
government ever allow us to have this
00:57:18
kind of reach into their populace and if
00:57:19
you want to judge a person you can just
00:57:21
look at their behavior citizens in China
00:57:24
live either in a complete police state
00:57:27
where everything they do is tracked
00:57:29
every transaction facial recognition
00:57:31
every step they take every purchase they
00:57:34
make is tracked or you're in a literal
00:57:36
concentration camp that's how the people
00:57:39
of China live today we are their
00:57:41
adversary they have noted that we're
00:57:44
their adversary under what circumstance
00:57:46
would you think they would treat us any
00:57:48
differently than they treat their own
00:57:50
citizens it is absolutely insane that
00:57:53
anybody would take the side of the CCP
00:57:56
on this you are asking them to divest
00:57:58
you're not asking them to shut it down
00:58:01
that is a partisan sort of angle on this
00:58:04
and there's a lot of partisanship going
00:58:06
on on the edges on this but what we have
00:58:08
to realize is they would never allow us
00:58:10
to do this to their citizens and how
00:58:12
they treat their citizens is obvious as
00:58:15
an example we've tried you know we tried
00:58:16
to export sugar via McDonald's and Coke
00:58:20
and actually they have domestic brands
00:58:21
that they were able to support and prop
00:58:23
up so they have more control of that too
00:58:24
so even even even our Downstream
00:58:26
attempts to actually send products that
00:58:29
theoretically over long periods of time
00:58:31
aren't necessarily beneficial they've
00:58:33
act they're smart enough to actually
00:58:34
blunt yeah and they don't let their kids
00:58:36
play video games or use Tik Tok well
00:58:38
even video games they saw video games
00:58:40
are bad it's not like they're like oh
00:58:41
Activision come on in the doors are open
00:58:43
they're like you can use it an hour no I
00:58:45
think it's like three hours a week and
00:58:47
certain kids and on the weekends and
00:58:49
certain kids are totally ban they have
00:58:51
an ability to make strategic decisions
00:58:53
that benefit their population and I
00:58:55
think that we
00:58:56
have never attempted to I'm not saying
00:58:58
that this law is going to be great but
00:59:01
you'd have to be extremely naive to
00:59:03
assume that there is nothing bad going
00:59:05
on here with this app it doesn't mean
00:59:07
that there's nothing bad going on with
00:59:09
all the other apps I am assuming that
00:59:11
all these apps have foreign actors that
00:59:13
have infiltrated them I think that's the
00:59:15
right posture to have I don't have
00:59:17
Instagram on my phone I don't have
00:59:19
Facebook on my phone I don't have Tik
00:59:21
Tok anymore on my phone the only thing
00:59:23
that's left is
00:59:24
X and at some point if those apps can
00:59:29
prove that there's a chain of custody so
00:59:31
for example you know one thing that I
00:59:32
thought of you could do is you could put
00:59:35
some kind of like itar regulations
00:59:37
around this so that only US citizens
00:59:39
could work on these apps any app that is
00:59:42
ambiently observing you I think the
00:59:45
overwhelming majority of people there's
00:59:47
it's very benign implications but the
00:59:50
whole point is that if you have 300
00:59:52
million people that are being observed
00:59:54
you're going to get also the the a
00:59:57
thousand or 10,000 that are super
00:59:59
important and you're going to catch
01:00:01
stuff that you're not allowed to
01:00:03
know already doing this pull up the
01:00:06
article Nick Tik Tok has already
01:00:09
admitted to and been caught with their
01:00:11
hand in the cookie jar spying on
01:00:12
journalists we know that they're doing
01:00:15
this already and we know their track
01:00:17
record for spying on their own people
01:00:19
this is the no-brainer of no-brainer
01:00:22
decisions just divest and if they won't
01:00:24
divest it tells you every you need to
01:00:26
know this is super valuable to them and
01:00:29
that algorithm is so valuable that they
01:00:31
know they can program the US citizen I
01:00:34
think the other problem is I'm not sure
01:00:36
that the people with the technical
01:00:38
sophistication will have the time to
01:00:41
then actually go and audit the codebase
01:00:43
to really know that there aren't any
01:00:44
Easter eggs in here and there aren't
01:00:46
real back doors and they won't let us
01:00:48
this is my point I think divesture
01:00:50
should not be allowed I actually just
01:00:51
think unfortunately this app should just
01:00:52
be shut down and the people will migrate
01:00:55
to Instagram and the people will migrate
01:00:57
to YouTube and new prodcts and or new
01:01:00
products and the thing there is that at
01:01:02
least these are American controlled and
01:01:05
are there data leaks happening in those
01:01:06
apps probably but it's at least not so
01:01:10
brazenly obvious Sach your thoughts I'm
01:01:13
a little confused here are you guys
01:01:15
saying that the Chinese government uses
01:01:17
Tik Tok to spy on its own population or
01:01:19
they ban it because they think it's
01:01:21
harmful no they ban Tik Tock bear
01:01:23
because it's harmful no they have
01:01:25
complete control over Tik Tok yes and
01:01:26
they control that in their country they
01:01:29
use camera sacks and you know this full
01:01:31
well on every single corner with facial
01:01:34
recognition and every one of their
01:01:36
phones is tracked you know this full
01:01:38
well saxs they are spying Tik Tok or not
01:01:41
no they have banned Tik Tok they have a
01:01:43
different version called they a
01:01:44
different version yeah and in that
01:01:47
version and they push ma dian's
01:01:50
algorithms are very different they push
01:01:52
educational content there's so basically
01:01:54
like on the on the bike dance board what
01:01:57
happened with this whole thing is the
01:01:59
the CEO and the founder had to step down
01:02:02
effectively right they brought in
01:02:04
effectively new management and in that
01:02:06
the CCP H is a board a board director
01:02:10
and has what's called the Golden vote so
01:02:12
they effectively decide and so what you
01:02:14
saw were the algorithms morph over time
01:02:16
from pure entertainment to things that
01:02:20
pushed a lot of educational content they
01:02:22
also then imposed broadly speaking Li on
01:02:26
content that they didn't like they would
01:02:28
only allow in other apps experiences
01:02:32
where they also have a board seat now
01:02:33
and a golden vote as Jason said games
01:02:36
can only be played in certain apps for
01:02:38
certain amounts of time so they've made
01:02:40
their own decisions about what's good
01:02:42
for their own population the flavor of
01:02:45
the app that's here my my biggest point
01:02:47
is that again you have to pick the
01:02:49
Lesser evil I think it's pretty
01:02:52
reasonable to assume that all these apps
01:02:53
are
01:02:54
infiltrated
01:02:56
but this one is more Brazen because it
01:02:58
is really the only one that's completely
01:03:00
and obviously foreign
01:03:02
control and I don't think that if you
01:03:04
tried to divest
01:03:06
it you will get any assurance that that
01:03:09
code is reliable and so you'd have to
01:03:10
build the whole thing from scratch all
01:03:12
over again for what it's worth the
01:03:13
company has said that they're willing to
01:03:14
move all of their hosting in the US to
01:03:19
Oracle data centers in the US David you
01:03:22
and I know what that means like could
01:03:23
you imagine a migration like that who is
01:03:26
going to look at every single endpoint
01:03:28
every single line of code that is a joke
01:03:30
that's meant to elay people who are
01:03:31
non-technical right y 100% I kind of
01:03:34
agree with that all right seems like
01:03:36
we're I don't know if we're 2v2 here but
01:03:38
look are you Bann or not Bann sax with
01:03:41
the language is corrected are you ban or
01:03:42
divest or what I'm ambivalent about it
01:03:45
because I'm open to the idea wow of
01:03:48
banning a foreign app in this way but
01:03:53
the reason why I'm a little bit
01:03:55
ambivalent about it is because a I think
01:03:58
that what they're doing has to be proven
01:04:01
as opposed to just a bunch of hand
01:04:02
waving over it and when you start
01:04:04
talking about what's happening to the
01:04:05
Wagers and concentration camps and
01:04:07
spying that has nothing to do with this
01:04:09
particular app and in fact you've
01:04:11
revealed this app doesn't even function
01:04:13
in China I think there just a lot of
01:04:14
hand waving going on not a lot lot of
01:04:16
hard proof and I don't think that one
01:04:18
little story in the New York Times I
01:04:21
would consider hard proof I agree with
01:04:22
saxs yeah so that's number one is I'm
01:04:25
open to to this idea but I want to see
01:04:26
hard proof number two is I don't think
01:04:29
you're going to get it I think the NSA
01:04:31
and the CIA will read in the the
01:04:33
intelligence committee and there's a
01:04:35
subcommittee that's probably been read
01:04:37
in but I can guarantee you the American
01:04:38
public will not get rid in on what and
01:04:40
Mansion said on CNBC today by the way
01:04:42
that you know he has based on his
01:04:45
information he believes strongly that
01:04:47
they should divest whether it's to his
01:04:48
group or another group but these guys
01:04:50
have lied so many times about so many
01:04:52
things I mean I just think the public
01:04:54
has a right to know look if 100 million
01:04:56
Americans are going to be deprived of
01:04:57
using an app they love why can't we get
01:04:58
a little bit more information exactly
01:05:01
what that app has done wrong they're
01:05:03
saying it they're saying it's in control
01:05:05
it's it's being controlled by a foreign
01:05:07
adversary they are saying it the the
01:05:08
bill says
01:05:10
it what is debatable they're telling you
01:05:12
all that means all that means is that
01:05:15
the app is owned by bite dance which is
01:05:17
here's what's unique about this bill
01:05:19
Incorporated here's what here's what's
01:05:21
unique about this bill it got out of
01:05:23
committee 50 to zero
01:05:26
it was overwhelmingly approved by both
01:05:28
sides of the house and it looks like in
01:05:30
the Senate there may be some refinements
01:05:32
that happen but it's going to get
01:05:34
largely overwhelmingly approved there as
01:05:35
well it's Patriot Act hold on it's a
01:05:38
very unique moment in time where you see
01:05:41
in today's political
01:05:44
landscape such uniformity and again I'm
01:05:48
not going to go and defend these folks
01:05:50
but except to say
01:05:51
that where there's smoke there's
01:05:54
probably fire and I think that in this
01:05:56
specific narrow case again we're not
01:05:58
talking about food stuffs or Lumber
01:06:01
right we're talking about a
01:06:02
technological application that is
01:06:04
observing a lot of people on a
01:06:06
continuous 24x7 basis I suspect this
01:06:10
this law would not have gotten out of
01:06:12
committee 50 to zero had they not been
01:06:14
read in by the NSA and the CIA and that
01:06:17
will never see the light of day because
01:06:19
we will never be disclosed that
01:06:21
information okay so it could have been
01:06:23
49 to1 David you know what I mean
01:06:25
another
01:06:28
ideological I could see it being 40 to
01:06:30
10 if it's ideological I could be seeing
01:06:32
it 35 to 15 48-2 it was 50 to zero so
01:06:37
was the Patriot Act look there's an old
01:06:39
saying in Washington that the worst
01:06:41
ideas are bipartisan these guys were all
01:06:43
being stampeded into this act they
01:06:46
brought it up and passed it with hardly
01:06:48
any debate I've already shown you how
01:06:50
the language of the bill is overly broad
01:06:52
it's not just a Tik Tock ban it says
01:06:56
that any app or website did you know
01:06:58
that any app or website domestically
01:07:01
that's subject subject to the direction
01:07:04
of a foreigner from one of these count
01:07:07
countes four countries North Korea
01:07:09
Russia China IR I said a foreigner from
01:07:10
one of those countries yeah I'm trying
01:07:12
to make clear for the audience all you
01:07:13
got to do is make that argument if
01:07:15
you're an AG who wants to go after one
01:07:18
of our domestic platforms that's all you
01:07:20
got to do to bring them under your thumb
01:07:21
what would be the proper route if a US
01:07:25
platform was in fact compromised by the
01:07:27
Chinese North Koreans or Iran what would
01:07:31
be the proper path in your mind wouldn't
01:07:32
that concern you if an app is sharing us
01:07:36
data in a way that it shouldn't then why
01:07:38
wouldn't it just be
01:07:40
prosecuted this is saying right the AGS
01:07:42
would go no it's not it's not it's not
01:07:44
even it's Banning Tik Tok okay subject
01:07:46
to maybe divesture happens but there's a
01:07:48
lot of people who think that the six
01:07:50
months they're giving for this is just
01:07:51
not going to work and the Chinese
01:07:52
government may not go for the idea of
01:07:54
allowing Tik Tok to be bought by an
01:07:57
American company because they may not
01:07:58
like the prent that creates so again I
01:08:01
think you're answering your own question
01:08:02
I think you're making a very important
01:08:04
and good point which is there's so much
01:08:06
body of business law here and there's so
01:08:09
many state AGS who would want to make
01:08:11
their bones and you see the state AGS
01:08:14
trying to build their credibility going
01:08:16
after Facebook for sexual exploitation
01:08:19
and all of this stuff there to your
01:08:20
point David there is such a body of
01:08:23
lawsuits and law and precedent
01:08:26
that Tik Tok could have been proseed
01:08:27
under it's very odd and rare that
01:08:30
there's been a complete dant where this
01:08:33
thing came on from up above and
01:08:35
everybody just got on board and all I'm
01:08:36
saying is in these very rare and unique
01:08:39
instances where somebody sheld their own
01:08:42
personal political
01:08:44
aspirations probably opposite that we
01:08:47
don't know my alarm Bells go off when DC
01:08:50
acts with this kind of unanimity because
01:08:52
the only time they ever do that when
01:08:54
they become a unip part
01:08:56
is when the National Security State
01:08:57
wants some new power I agree with you
01:08:59
this how we got into the almost
01:09:02
unanimous this is how we got into the
01:09:03
Patriot Act saying it's right I'm not
01:09:06
saying every dumb idea that gives the
01:09:08
federal government more
01:09:10
power ends up being almost unanimous in
01:09:13
you're absolutely right and I'm agreeing
01:09:15
with you they were read in at a national
01:09:17
security level that got them to become a
01:09:19
unip party on this topic we are never
01:09:21
going to get and I'm just you know
01:09:23
responding to freeberg we are never
01:09:24
going to get read in we the people
01:09:26
because of this like phony concern about
01:09:29
they always like classification when
01:09:31
they don't want the public to know
01:09:32
something now by the way important
01:09:33
shouldn't be secret give us the proof
01:09:36
why can't they give us the proof I don't
01:09:37
think it needs to be proof it's the
01:09:39
potential damage here that they're
01:09:40
saying is the problem Sachs they could
01:09:43
wake up this algorithm at any point in
01:09:45
time and they could steer people's
01:09:47
thinking they have already steered it
01:09:49
your party has talked incessantly about
01:09:53
how Tik Tock has steered cultural issues
01:09:56
in a certain direction thus Libs of tick
01:09:59
tock all this kind of stuff there is
01:10:01
ample evidence that these social
01:10:04
networks and these videos do influence
01:10:06
young people so if young people are
01:10:08
addicted to this which they clearly are
01:10:10
and if young people are influenced by
01:10:12
this which they clearly are those are
01:10:14
just facts that are indisputable the
01:10:16
Chinese could wake this up at any time
01:10:19
and steer political issues Left Right
01:10:21
Center cause chaos it is the potential
01:10:23
harm here Sachs that is is the concern
01:10:26
it's not just that they're doing it now
01:10:28
it's that they could do it in the future
01:10:31
and if you were to take this and you
01:10:32
were to put let's say this was North
01:10:34
Korea or Iran would your would you allow
01:10:37
North Korea or Iran to own this app in
01:10:40
the United States of course he wouldn't
01:10:42
I think my my point would be the same
01:10:44
which is I want to see some proof hold
01:10:46
on let me make a couple of points number
01:10:47
one I want to see some proof that this
01:10:50
is actually spyware that to me has been
01:10:52
alleged and if it's as such a SL on
01:10:55
cases you say why is there no proof of
01:10:58
this so that's Point number one and and
01:11:01
by the way if if the phone is just
01:11:03
sitting there passively listening to you
01:11:04
and that's the spyware Apple should
01:11:06
really address that because app
01:11:08
shouldn't be able to do that right so
01:11:10
that's like Apple's problem with respect
01:11:13
to the data supposedly being leaked to
01:11:15
the Communist party again I want to see
01:11:18
what data are we talking about like like
01:11:21
what Tik Tok videos I like what what's
01:11:24
important about that data there are
01:11:26
bundles of data that are available on
01:11:28
the open market that they can buy about
01:11:30
users I don't think that's what it is
01:11:32
these these microphones are on 247 these
01:11:35
apps are allowed to passively listen in
01:11:37
the background then why don't we just
01:11:38
tell Apple not to allow that I think
01:11:41
that that could be a partial solve too
01:11:43
well what about Android your phone
01:11:44
should not be passively listening to you
01:11:45
you should have to like stick it in your
01:11:46
face and talk to it if you want to
01:11:49
activate the micr the the problem is
01:11:50
when you download these apps you create
01:11:52
these settings and so you try to you
01:11:53
have to try to convince a 100 million
01:11:55
people that hey you shouldn't do that
01:11:58
maybe you should only do it when you use
01:11:59
the app in a specific way and it kills
01:12:02
the usability and so people get lazy and
01:12:04
they're like ah default on look what
01:12:06
what I'm saying here is that the way the
01:12:07
microphone should
01:12:09
work on Apple products is that I think
01:12:13
it that yeah it should I think it does
01:12:16
work that way I I don't know if that the
01:12:18
listening in like the key issue here
01:12:21
well I mean who knows what's possible in
01:12:23
terms of hacking and spyware
01:12:25
you know those are all you know unknowns
01:12:29
so okay so so one by one we're kind of
01:12:31
knocking knocking out all these issues
01:12:33
it's not passively listening the data
01:12:35
that it's collecting doesn't does seem
01:12:38
that important with respect to steering
01:12:40
I agree I guess that's a theoretical
01:12:42
problem but you could say that about any
01:12:44
of these apps and you're on a slippery
01:12:46
slope to basically a First Amendment
01:12:48
problem because they're not letting
01:12:49
users get the content that they actually
01:12:52
want all right I guess we disag and then
01:12:55
and then look and then one final point
01:12:57
about the reciprocity argument is if you
01:13:00
want to make this about reciprocity then
01:13:02
put it in a trade
01:13:05
bill that's where you deal with
01:13:06
reciprocity is you say okay these
01:13:10
products from China get to to play in US
01:13:12
markets our products from the United
01:13:13
States get to play in Chinese markets
01:13:15
you do it through a trade bill this is
01:13:16
not a trade bill this gives a new power
01:13:18
to the government to Define foreign
01:13:20
adversary controlled applications and
01:13:23
websites free just want to give you a
01:13:24
chance to answer the two questions are
01:13:26
you in favor of divestiture if it was
01:13:28
Iran who owned the app would you feel
01:13:31
differently I don't know about
01:13:36
divestiture until to Sax's point I just
01:13:39
I I haven't heard a clear point of view
01:13:41
or clear like piece of information about
01:13:45
what this app uniquely does that other
01:13:47
apps don't do that creates a threat I
01:13:50
it's just not clear to me so in general
01:13:53
I'm not in fan of like forcing companies
01:13:55
to divest and forcing things to be shut
01:13:58
down and taking away human consumer
01:14:00
choice I just don't think those are good
01:14:01
things generally okay and I'm not to sa
01:14:03
this point I'm just not compelled that
01:14:05
there's something here based on what
01:14:07
I've seen and then like if Iran owned
01:14:09
Tik Tok I don't care who owns it based
01:14:12
on my prior statement I I think people
01:14:13
should have choice to use what they want
01:14:16
to use provided that there is no spying
01:14:18
if there's spying I want to know that
01:14:19
there're spying and how it's happening
01:14:21
we need to technically fix that if
01:14:22
someone can passively turn on a
01:14:24
microphone on an app and listen to
01:14:26
people in a room pretty smart scientists
01:14:29
we've proven that it's possible they can
01:14:30
also we should fix also that's a bigger
01:14:33
problem then you need to shut down all
01:14:35
the iPhones we have there's an Israeli
01:14:36
software company we all know what it's
01:14:38
called we all can go and license a
01:14:40
software from them okay they they will
01:14:43
help you do this so I'm sorry patch but
01:14:46
that's
01:14:47
not Apple needs to patch it that's
01:14:49
exactly right that's problem I don't
01:14:52
want a domestic app to be able to do
01:14:53
that to me yeah exactly it is happening
01:14:56
and it hasn't been fixed and it's not
01:14:58
that it hasn't been fixed the point is
01:15:00
when you have a large technical surface
01:15:02
area you guys know this there are bugs
01:15:04
all the time like we deal with for
01:15:06
example threat factors all the time into
01:15:09
like Microsoft has dealt with these for
01:15:11
50 years right every new update of
01:15:13
Windows every little thing has all these
01:15:15
little back doors and little threads
01:15:17
that weren't cleaned up properly so this
01:15:19
is an ongoing whack-a-mole problem and
01:15:21
the reality is that a very small
01:15:23
technical team has and always been able
01:15:26
to stay a few steps ahead of apple and
01:15:30
many of these apps and all I'm saying is
01:15:32
you should just not be so naive as to
01:15:34
assume that this apple is something that
01:15:36
that this is something Apple can fix I
01:15:38
think that a small talented team of
01:15:40
hackers whoever they work for will
01:15:42
always be able to find these back doors
01:15:44
in every single new release of every
01:15:45
single operating system and they will be
01:15:48
a few steps ahead so but then we're
01:15:50
screwed anyway because all the data is
01:15:51
already out there so I think the point
01:15:53
is so knowing that if you want to maybe
01:15:57
minimize the surface area of how bad
01:15:59
this data leaks to just the foreign
01:16:02
actors that have infiltrated our
01:16:03
American companies you can ban Tik Tok
01:16:06
okay if you want to just open the door
01:16:08
to it keep it around look I I like I
01:16:11
said at the beginning I'm ambivalent
01:16:12
about this because if you can prove to
01:16:13
me that there's really a national
01:16:15
security threat and that your remedy for
01:16:17
dealing with it is narrowly tailored
01:16:20
then I'm potentially on board with this
01:16:21
but I don't believe the threat has been
01:16:23
proven and I certainly don't think the
01:16:25
remedy is narrowly tailored in fact it's
01:16:27
expansive and it's going to lead to
01:16:28
weaponization and I don't trust the
01:16:30
government to Define new new uh
01:16:33
categories of foreign controlled
01:16:36
applications and websites I think you're
01:16:38
probably right which is the unfortunate
01:16:39
part but I I do think that there's
01:16:42
enough of these folks that have been
01:16:44
read into something that we're not being
01:16:45
told and I have zero faith in that yeah
01:16:49
I'm not I'm not going to say that it's
01:16:51
accurate or not but I'm saying I suspect
01:16:54
that some body of work from a
01:16:57
three-letter agency has made its way to
01:16:59
enough of these people under
01:17:02
confidentiality where they've all agreed
01:17:05
the National Security state has a secret
01:17:07
reason for wanting to expand his powers
01:17:10
that this doesn't fill me with any
01:17:12
confidence again Patriot Act 2.0 that's
01:17:14
where I started with this I don't think
01:17:15
this is the Patriot Act because the
01:17:16
Patriot Act was like I'm gonna have now
01:17:18
a broad license to probe anything I want
01:17:21
this is about saying this thing that is
01:17:23
here can no longer be here
01:17:25
so but it's not focused on Tik Tok it's
01:17:28
focused on again first foreign controll
01:17:32
applications which includes websites the
01:17:34
the Patriot Act was about the government
01:17:36
being able to go proactively wherever
01:17:39
they wanted when they weren't allowed
01:17:41
that is not what this bill says this
01:17:43
bill is more reactive and saying uh okay
01:17:46
you out out of the sandbox and all I'm
01:17:49
saying is you're right that that could
01:17:50
be abused but that's very different than
01:17:51
the Patriot Act which was very AGG
01:17:56
aggressive all right so there you have
01:17:58
it folks uh two people looks like agree
01:18:01
with the divesture two people have a
01:18:04
difference of opinion let's no I don't
01:18:06
agree with the divest I I think it
01:18:07
should be shut down okay shut down yeah
01:18:09
so shut down divesture looks like lots
01:18:11
of opinions that's good lots of opinions
01:18:13
that's good okay I think we just had
01:18:14
more debate over this than the entire US
01:18:16
Congress did perhaps I mean I think
01:18:19
that's why people listen to this program
01:18:20
is because we're literally getting into
01:18:22
the absolute finest details and asking
01:18:25
really probing questions saxs that you
01:18:27
love 100 million people are soon gon to
01:18:29
be asking when Tik Tok gets shut down
01:18:31
100 million people who used it every day
01:18:33
are going to be like why did this happen
01:18:35
I'm gonna say something about that one
01:18:38
of my kids and I'm not going to say who
01:18:39
it is we recently had them tested for
01:18:42
ADHD they weren't doing particularly
01:18:44
great in school the response by some of
01:18:48
the folks in the school was oh there's
01:18:51
meds for that we're like no
01:18:53
meds and what we did was we took away
01:18:57
their
01:18:58
iPad and we completely deprived them of
01:19:02
all these apps and video
01:19:04
games I cannot describe to you the
01:19:07
magnitude of the turnaround in this
01:19:10
kit
01:19:12
grades incredible where they were
01:19:15
getting 60% and 70% now getting
01:19:19
90% totally engaged interesting Charming
01:19:23
kid that had lost a little bit and I
01:19:27
think that there was a little bit of a
01:19:28
Daz and I just want to say that in
01:19:30
general as a parent whether the app is
01:19:33
banned or not who cares my lived
01:19:35
experience right now is that video games
01:19:38
and these apps are horrible for kids
01:19:42
this is a known fact actually jamat I
01:19:45
looked into this as well it turns
01:19:47
out students who used iPads and digital
01:19:50
media many times a day they show the
01:19:52
exact signs of ADHD in attention and
01:19:55
Hyper activity and impulsivity
01:19:58
so whether you think ADHD is a real
01:20:01
diagnosis or not it's inducing those
01:20:03
symptoms I'm willing to say that my
01:20:05
child probably had a very light form of
01:20:07
it maybe it was exacerbated by these
01:20:09
video games and the iPad and these apps
01:20:12
and you know they were getting all the
01:20:14
Tik Tok content but they were getting it
01:20:17
on
01:20:18
YouTube alerts all this anyways went to
01:20:22
zero not like you can have a little bit
01:20:24
here or there zero and the
01:20:25
transformation in this last month and a
01:20:27
half two months has been incredible I
01:20:30
don't know if other parents are dealing
01:20:31
with this but what I'll tell you is
01:20:33
the's apps are not good so this whole
01:20:35
consumer Choice thing I think my view is
01:20:38
a little tainted because I get agitated
01:20:39
as a responsible parent I'm like just
01:20:41
get this app out of here and I already
01:20:43
know that I'm addicted to it and it's
01:20:44
not good for me I have no idea what it's
01:20:46
doing to my my kids and I just don't
01:20:49
want to deal with it if you um if you
01:20:51
look at the correlation between all of
01:20:53
these symptoms showing growing up in
01:20:55
kids it's basically the introduction of
01:20:56
the iPhone and so people are kind of
01:20:59
reaching consensus that the iPhone and
01:21:01
distraction ADHD spiking depression all
01:21:05
this stuff anxiety and kids is
01:21:06
correlating with too much screen time
01:21:08
you can do your own research folks um
01:21:10
maybe it correlates with prescription of
01:21:13
ssris maybe
01:21:17
it with um schools going totally woke
01:21:20
and bananas I cor a lot of things Co
01:21:23
coely
01:21:26
exacerbated it when you look at the the
01:21:27
trend lines for sure and the ssris and
01:21:31
those kind of things
01:21:33
being prescribed is probably as a result
01:21:37
of these ADHD symptoms coming from
01:21:38
screen time and then it's probably
01:21:41
unnecessary I think people just got a
01:21:42
lot more um prescription happy like
01:21:45
they're just definitely that over
01:21:46
prescription they're willing to put kids
01:21:48
on drugs for I mean you talk about ADHD
01:21:51
for young boys that's kind of like just
01:21:53
normal behavior
01:21:55
yeah no absolutely like kids running
01:21:57
around outside and having energy if I
01:21:59
had to pick an age I would say 16 17 18
01:22:01
years old for social media and for
01:22:03
phones I would say 15 or 16 you know
01:22:06
with a very controlled phone so that's
01:22:08
that's just one person's opinion all
01:22:10
right Florida is on the verge of banning
01:22:12
lab grown meat freberg can you tee this
01:22:14
up for us yeah so Florida's been
01:22:16
debating a
01:22:17
bill in their state legislature since
01:22:20
November and it just passed the house
01:22:22
and the Senate a vote of 86 627 in the
01:22:25
house 2820 in the Senate to prohibit the
01:22:28
manufacturing sale holding or
01:22:31
distribution of cultivated meat and it
01:22:33
basically makes the sale or ownership of
01:22:35
cultivated meat a second-degree
01:22:37
misdemeanor this is lab grown meat and
01:22:40
this
01:22:41
bill is now on desantis's desk for
01:22:45
signing you know I'll kind of highlight
01:22:47
a little bit of the motivation and and
01:22:49
and some of the technical background and
01:22:50
my point of view on it if that's okay do
01:22:53
do you see him eating the meat while
01:22:54
you're talking about did you see him
01:22:56
eating the me I'm paying attention
01:22:58
unlike you guys he's got this like
01:23:00
Flintstone size ham hog we listen goad
01:23:04
it feels like a like a non-issue to
01:23:06
folks who eat meat and don't care but I
01:23:08
just want to point out how much this is
01:23:10
generally a challenge
01:23:12
to enabling choice in new Innovative
01:23:15
technology which you know we've seen
01:23:17
attempts at this in the past but what is
01:23:20
the reason what is the reason to ban lab
01:23:23
grown meat to ban in Florida the
01:23:26
motivation is that Florida ranchers felt
01:23:28
threatened the guy who just has been
01:23:30
advocating for Banning Tik Tok this
01:23:33
whole show is now accusing Florida of
01:23:35
being into Banning are you your boy s
01:23:37
loves to I'm the only person on
01:23:39
this pod who actually freeberg is too
01:23:42
who are skeptical of like does knee-jerk
01:23:44
Banning everything ban everything I
01:23:46
would not ban this I didn't say to ban
01:23:49
everything where where's that coming
01:23:50
from joke we're joking don't don't label
01:23:52
me with your jcal brush
01:23:55
that a bad
01:23:57
everything I just it's definitely
01:23:59
becoming a minority position to be
01:24:01
against government intervention in free
01:24:05
decision making and commerce by
01:24:06
individual citizens Florida ranchers
01:24:09
felt that their livelihood was
01:24:10
threatened they have a billion dollar
01:24:12
ranching business a year in Florida good
01:24:14
for them they should go ahead and
01:24:16
compete with whatever new technology is
01:24:17
emerging I would say try a little role
01:24:20
reversal imagine if you know governments
01:24:22
and States tried to ban the use of the
01:24:24
track
01:24:24
for fear of putting agricultural workers
01:24:27
out of business or you know software
01:24:29
companies that did accounting software
01:24:31
got banned because it could put
01:24:33
accountants out of business or electric
01:24:35
car production and use got banned
01:24:36
because it could put traditional
01:24:38
Automotive manufacturers out of business
01:24:40
you could go down the list and you could
01:24:41
create this position on nearly any new
01:24:43
or emerging technology that feels
01:24:45
threatening to an incumbent industry and
01:24:47
ultimately it really only yields to
01:24:50
regulatory capture and to a lack of
01:24:53
choice and oper opportunity for new
01:24:55
innovation and for consumers to make
01:24:57
decisions about what they want and the
01:24:58
irony here is that so much of what's
01:25:01
being consumed in the market space Today
01:25:03
part of their their their
01:25:04
rationalization is oh well it's new
01:25:06
technology we don't know if it's good
01:25:07
for you we don't know if it's going to
01:25:08
work the truth is there are federal
01:25:10
regulatory bodies that have oversight on
01:25:12
the sort of thing 20 years ago almost
01:25:14
all the cheese that we ate in the United
01:25:16
States was made from renet renit is an
01:25:19
enzyme that converts the protein and
01:25:20
milk into cheese we got renit from the
01:25:23
stomach of cat we would scrape it out
01:25:25
and sell rent it and it would be used to
01:25:27
make cheese then Rec combinant
01:25:29
engineering where we could put we could
01:25:32
get bacteria or Yeast cells to make
01:25:34
proteins this technology unlocked the
01:25:37
opportunity to make renit more
01:25:38
affordably so rather than go and
01:25:40
Slaughter calvs and get the ren out of
01:25:42
their stomach we engineer the bacteria
01:25:44
or the yeast cell to make the exact same
01:25:45
protein and that is now the entirety of
01:25:48
the ren industry is recombinantly
01:25:50
produced renit and the entirety of
01:25:52
cheese that we all consume is made using
01:25:54
this genetically modified yeast that
01:25:56
makes this enzyme that converts milk
01:25:58
into cheese the same is true across
01:26:00
other Industries we used to use animal
01:26:02
fat for laundry detergent turned out it
01:26:04
was a lot cheaper to make enzymes using
01:26:06
the same process I just described
01:26:08
instead of making animal fat and now all
01:26:09
of our laundry detergent is Rec common
01:26:11
in enzymes so I think like this notion
01:26:13
that um we're going to ban this stuff is
01:26:16
a regulatory capture incumbency moment
01:26:18
it's totally wrong it denies consumer
01:26:21
choice and frankly it flies in the face
01:26:23
of what has historically been a real
01:26:25
Economic Opportunity to bring cost down
01:26:28
to bring new innovation to Market and to
01:26:29
try and stall that Innovation is going
01:26:31
to leave this state or this country in a
01:26:34
real kind of challenge compared to other
01:26:35
countries I just think it's wrong I
01:26:37
think it's really on this topic you are
01:26:39
100% right you're right this is a dumb
01:26:42
thing to legislate and it is meaningless
01:26:45
and unimpactful and people should just
01:26:47
decide based on what tastes better is
01:26:51
that's different than a listening device
01:26:53
or cheap
01:26:54
freeberg is
01:26:56
it is the criticism of this that it's
01:26:59
regulatory capture or it's part of like
01:27:01
this anti-woke kind of Vibes in Florida
01:27:04
there's a conservative movement in
01:27:05
Florida which has taken hold which I
01:27:07
think this is key
01:27:09
to now in some ways I would argue that
01:27:12
conservative movement has really
01:27:14
important sociological points of view in
01:27:17
other cases I think it denies necessary
01:27:21
Innovation it denies necessary
01:27:23
advancement to move industry forward
01:27:25
versus social change and I think the the
01:27:28
the ability to kind of auscap the two
01:27:30
that oh you know transgenderism in
01:27:32
schools and elementary schools is the
01:27:34
same as the woke leftists from
01:27:36
California making you know lab grown
01:27:38
meet and they all get kind of jammed
01:27:40
together as one big tribal group and
01:27:42
therefore we should ban it all what will
01:27:44
likely end up happening here is this
01:27:45
will find its path to Federal
01:27:47
preemption historically when we've seen
01:27:49
States try to impose these sorts of bans
01:27:53
the companies that are ultimately
01:27:54
affected the innovators that are
01:27:55
affected go to the federal government
01:27:57
and they try and legislate for a bill
01:27:59
that says this stuff is legal and should
01:28:01
be broadly available that Federal
01:28:03
preemption then stops State's rights on
01:28:05
having a ban in place and so it's very
01:28:07
likely that we'll end up seeing some
01:28:09
legislation here over the next couple of
01:28:10
years if this technology is ultimately
01:28:12
beneficial the problem is now that
01:28:13
Florida's done this I guarantee you're
01:28:15
going to see Texas which is a huge
01:28:17
ranching State and many other states
01:28:19
step up to do it it creates a really bad
01:28:20
precedent for all other disruptive kind
01:28:22
of Industries to be blocked by their
01:28:24
local economies that that believe that
01:28:26
they're under threat and you know it
01:28:28
just creates like a lot of unnecessary
01:28:30
chaos so SX what is desantis's beef with
01:28:33
fake
01:28:34
meat I don't know I don't know I don't
01:28:36
know what he's gonna do in this case but
01:28:38
let me let me State clearly what I think
01:28:41
which is I think it's really terrible
01:28:43
when a bunch of incumbents in an
01:28:45
industry get together and try to shut
01:28:48
out the Innovative Solution by inventing
01:28:50
some unproven threat that they turn into
01:28:53
some sort of about Tik Tok right but
01:28:56
exactly but enough about Tik Tok about I
01:28:57
see around the corner from that's why I
01:29:00
wanted to talk about this because I
01:29:01
think the two are so similar they're not
01:29:04
similar at all well they're not sim go
01:29:06
ahead SE no regulatory capture is
01:29:08
regulatory capture but this is a far
01:29:10
that's just a term of art we're just you
01:29:12
fair enough yeah yeah we disagree on
01:29:13
yeah that's fine fair enough I think you
01:29:15
guys have to have the intellectual
01:29:16
honesty to say these are different
01:29:17
issues one is lab grown meat versus
01:29:19
ranchers in America this is typical
01:29:22
corruption and cronyism fine whatever
01:29:25
okay oh yeah but you don't think you
01:29:26
don't think that the um the other tech
01:29:29
companies that compete with Tik Tok are
01:29:31
secretly Banning together to basically
01:29:33
Jin up this bill I don't think they're
01:29:36
secet I don't think they're secretly
01:29:37
Banning I think that they're being over
01:29:38
they're overtly
01:29:40
organizing just like the Ranchers but
01:29:43
again that typically still always gets
01:29:45
cut on partisan lines and what I'm
01:29:47
saying is this is totally different than
01:29:49
lab grown me versus ranchers I just want
01:29:51
to say one thing the intellectual
01:29:55
the similarities I think I just want to
01:29:57
make a point here I think the
01:29:58
intellectual discourse on this program
01:30:00
is second to none I mean we are getting
01:30:02
into the most refined details of this
01:30:05
issue and you just don't hear this
01:30:06
anywhere else so I just want to give
01:30:08
myself and the rest of the crew a patter
01:30:09
in the back you just want to masturbate
01:30:11
I yeah I just want to yeah no I mean we
01:30:14
really did get in Pretty in the weeds
01:30:16
here jel do you agree that the Florida
01:30:18
bill is ridiculous and that it sets a
01:30:20
terrible precedent uh I didn't read it
01:30:23
but I
01:30:24
would think that that's exactly what
01:30:26
there's nothing special about it I can't
01:30:28
imagine why somebody would want to ban
01:30:31
mock meat other than crony capitalism of
01:30:33
course and my question to you is when is
01:30:36
this going to taste good when are you
01:30:37
gonna make this mock me well by the way
01:30:38
this film makes no sense because the
01:30:40
only reason they would do it is if they
01:30:41
were afraid that the lab grown meat was
01:30:44
just so much cheaper and frankly so much
01:30:48
tastier than what they make and freeberg
01:30:50
you you've said this many times like we
01:30:52
are so like orders of magnitude away
01:30:55
from yeah we're 10 years but but by the
01:30:58
way why try and stop it from competing
01:31:00
let the VCS that want to throw money at
01:31:02
it throw money at it let the scientists
01:31:03
pursue it let the let the thing that's
01:31:06
made America so successful be successful
01:31:08
by the way imagine Elon got the Starship
01:31:12
up today you guys saw this thing it went
01:31:13
into orbit it was unb incredible imagine
01:31:17
if Boeing and a bunch of Defense
01:31:18
contractors got together 10 years ago
01:31:20
and said we got to stop SpaceX these
01:31:22
guys are trying to do stuff in an
01:31:25
they tried and they tried and they will
01:31:27
keep trying and the freedom that we AFF
01:31:30
people and buses in the United States of
01:31:32
America is what allows us to have our
01:31:34
Unique Edge and our unique ability to
01:31:36
create progress that you don't see
01:31:38
anywhere else on planet Earth and this
01:31:40
is the sort of sh that takes us
01:31:41
backwards you just said the key word we
01:31:43
US America America back to back to the
01:31:46
Tik Tok thing that's not an us thing
01:31:47
that's a Chinese thing I get the point I
01:31:50
I'm not like I'm not pro CCP but yeah I
01:31:53
get the point anything American God
01:31:55
bless us let's go American
01:31:57
exceptionalism no I saw the headlines I
01:31:58
think CNBC reported that uh the rocket
01:32:01
uh blew up on Entry
01:32:03
re-entry they I they didn't say that did
01:32:06
they I saw one headline where they had
01:32:08
to put a little neag in the end of the
01:32:10
sentence there was Starling Starling
01:32:12
video for like an hour it's nut the
01:32:14
video was so Crystal Clear it was like
01:32:17
HD of this rocket coming back down to
01:32:19
earth it was Bonkers so congrats to e
01:32:22
can I show you guys the most incredible
01:32:25
tweet related to this uh I'm just G to
01:32:27
send this to you Nick friendly reminder
01:32:29
that Google's annual catering budget is
01:32:32
72 million about twice the cost of sh
01:32:35
I mean it isut today today Elon
01:32:39
made the entire human race
01:32:42
multiplanetary yeah and it costs half as
01:32:45
much as what Google spends on
01:32:48
food that's incredible it does seem like
01:32:51
doesn't seem like a lot of money to
01:32:52
spend on food I I it does seem like
01:32:54
these Rockets take two or three the new
01:32:57
each time there's a new platform it
01:32:58
seems to take Elon exactly like two or
01:33:00
three to nail it and here we are again
01:33:02
you know you know so congrats to our boy
01:33:05
great job uh this going back full circle
01:33:07
the persistence and the resilience that
01:33:09
was needed to get this thing to happen
01:33:11
it's just like 20 years of stepbystep
01:33:15
iterative nothing about the initial kind
01:33:18
of instantiation or concept of you know
01:33:21
what SpaceX needed to walk to get here
01:33:23
was right everything had to change along
01:33:25
the way Starling came along etc etc and
01:33:28
here he is at the end of this period of
01:33:30
time with this incredible craft the
01:33:32
largest object to ever fly in outer
01:33:34
space it really is like an incredible
01:33:36
moment in human history and it took the
01:33:38
degree of persistence resilience that
01:33:40
was I think marks what makes American
01:33:42
entrepreneurship so powerful it really
01:33:44
is an incredible day it was an amazing
01:33:46
thing to watch I don't know if any of
01:33:47
you guys have ever gone watch and watch
01:33:49
any of the old Saturn Launches on
01:33:51
YouTube but I think this is a new era
01:33:53
it's really Inc I think this was like
01:33:54
five or six years
01:33:56
ago I got cleared to
01:34:00
basically
01:34:01
fly and hug renberg when they were doing
01:34:04
a launch and so I was able to see it as
01:34:07
the thing like kind of like tried to
01:34:09
approach Max Q it's one of the most
01:34:12
incredible things I've ever done so I
01:34:14
think we made some uh progress if you
01:34:15
look at the Google News links a lot of
01:34:18
praise for this launch
01:34:21
so yeah looks like people are kind of
01:34:24
getting it yeah just incredible I mean
01:34:27
this thing is so huge I don't know if
01:34:29
you've ever been inside of one of these
01:34:31
things but the the Starship yeah I've
01:34:34
been inside I was inside the first one
01:34:36
they built it is so large the capacity
01:34:39
of this thing is like I think you could
01:34:41
fit like three four 500 human beings
01:34:43
inside of it maybe when we do our our
01:34:45
Austin poker KN night we can stop over
01:34:47
and see it be really fun Bonkers and
01:34:49
when you see it stacked the height is
01:34:52
like it almost feels like you're looking
01:34:56
at CGI in real in the real world it is
01:34:58
incredibly tall like incredibly tall all
01:35:02
right listen this is your favorite
01:35:03
podcast in the world episode 170 of the
01:35:05
Allin podcast we never asked for this
01:35:08
but if you have a chance we we do the
01:35:10
show on video so if you're listening to
01:35:11
audio just type in all-in podcast in
01:35:14
YouTube and you can see the four of us I
01:35:16
don't know if that's a bonus feature or
01:35:19
not but we do all the graphs and the
01:35:20
charts and everything here all right uh
01:35:22
four David saxs the
01:35:25
Rainman David freeberg your assulted of
01:35:28
science shth
01:35:31
potia chairman dictator I am the world's
01:35:35
greatest moderator as David saxs will
01:35:37
attest with all those incredibly always
01:35:40
go Christopher Walkin whenever you do
01:35:41
these outs why do you do
01:35:43
that thanks for listening to the Allin
01:35:46
podcast wow David sacks poignant points
01:35:51
about regulatory capture freeberg Wes
01:35:56
mock Meats not for me Chamas everyone
01:36:01
loves a Great
01:36:04
Dictator we'll see you next time all in
01:36:09
podcast
01:36:11
wow love you boys so good your better
01:36:17
impression everyone's got their
01:36:19
superpower that's your super nasty nasty
01:36:21
Jal butu it I'm coming on I'm coming on
01:36:25
all in all right sax inv Saxy poo
01:36:27
invited me walk's better than your Trump
01:36:31
I got to work on I I turned the Trump
01:36:32
off for three years give me a break I'm
01:36:33
gonna can you a Joe pesi can you do a
01:36:35
Joe peshy do I have a Joe pesi in
01:36:38
me uh I feel like you do a good Joe PES
01:36:41
I do I do I'll bring you a Joe pesi next
01:36:44
I take request I'll do a Joe pesi next
01:36:45
week sure why not he only does the peshy
01:36:47
involuntarily when he gets in the
01:36:49
chopper everybody you got a short I'm
01:36:51
running for I'm running for president
01:36:53
you got to change the
01:36:57
laws Trump you have to change it so a
01:37:00
German can be president Austrian
01:37:02
Austrian Austrian yeah all right
01:37:05
we oh yeah rate and subscribe and all
01:37:07
that other if you want
01:37:12
byebye let your winners
01:37:15
ride Rainman
01:37:19
David and instead we open source it to
01:37:22
the fans and they've just gone crazy
01:37:24
with it love you queen
01:37:29
[Music]
01:37:32
of Besties
01:37:35
are that's my dog taking a your
01:37:40
driveway oh man myit meet we should all
01:37:44
just get a room and just have one big
01:37:46
huge orgy cuz they're all just us it's
01:37:48
like this like sexual tension that they
01:37:49
just need to release
01:37:51
somehow what
01:37:55
[Music]
01:37:57
we need to get mer
01:38:01
[Music]
01:38:05
our I'm going all
01:38:08
[Music]
01:38:10
in
