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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello and welcome to episode 82
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer now later in today's
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episode Jonathan Clemens will be joining
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us Jonathan is is the editor and and
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probably you could say the lead author
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of The well-known humble dollar website
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uh humble dollar features really writers
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there's probably 50 plus writers at this
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point I am honored to be one of them and
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Jonathan edits all of our writing and he
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does a terrific job because I I I enjoy
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writing I'm I'm probably a reasonably
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good writer yet every single time I
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submit an article to Jonathan he is able
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to polish it into something so much
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better than what I contributed myself
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Jonathan spent many years writing for
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the Wall Street Journal he's got a very
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interesting and useful helpful personal
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finance and investing thought process
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himself but first as always I wanted to
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share a review of the week this one
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comes from Apple podcasts from a user it
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it's not exactly an English word but
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user rch LL THL richl thank you for
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submitting this very kind review
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five-star review where you said I love
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this podcast the best interest cuts
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through the noise of bad advice with
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clear research backed personal finance
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strategies for the everyday investor and
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you wrote that in from the Philippines
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according to my sources here so thank
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you rch
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lltl for those very kind words if you
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get this send me an email and as long as
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the postage to send a t-shirt to the
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Philippines isn't too outrageous I would
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be happy to send you a super soft best
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interest t-shirt and before we get to
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Jonathan Clemens today I wanted to do a
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little brief monologue interestingly
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enough this is from an article that I've
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submitted to Humble dollar and by the
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time this podcast is live most likely
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this article will be live on humble
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dollar and now for the past few years
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I've been on a radio head kick if you
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don't know radio head for the
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uninitiated they're an English rock band
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their lead singer Tom York their most
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famous song is called creep but it's
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actually it's very interesting right
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creep is the song that average person on
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the street will have heard of but so
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many of their songs are really really
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good and the more you listen to them the
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more you find that some of the lesser
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known songs are actually terrific now
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Tom York that lead singer he's known for
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his distinctive whining vocals and and I
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mean that in a good way uh whining in a
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good way and also his Innovative
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songwriting and as I've gotten to know
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the band and learn more about them and I
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I read you know I read about Tom York on
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his Wikipedia article a quote that he
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said it it leapt off the page and and it
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kind of hit me right in the face and the
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quote is when I was a kid I always
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assumed that Fame was going to answer
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something to fill a gap and it does the
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absolute opposite end quote now when I
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saw that I immediately thought of the
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financial coraly people assume that
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money will make them happier or fill
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some sort of void in their life they
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grind and they grind and they grind
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until finally they reach retirement or
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they hit their financial Independence
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number or cross whatever threshold
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occupies their mind but does money
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really make us happy now some studies
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say no a famous 2006 study by five
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academics including the late great Danny
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Conan uh concluded the belief that high
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income is associated with good mood is
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widespread but mostly ucer people with
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above average income are relatively
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satisfied with their lives but are
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barely happier than others in momentto
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moment experience they tend to be more
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tense and they do not spend more time in
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particularly enjoyable activities that
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is just to to reaffirm that people with
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high income tend to be more tense and do
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not spend more time in particularly
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enjoyable activities now Conan Danny
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Conan and a fellow scientist named Angus
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Deon they they added new findings in
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20210 suggesting that emotional
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wellbeing Rises with income but there's
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no further progress Beyond an annual
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income of roughly $775,000 low income
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exacerbates the emotional pain
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associated with such misfortunes as
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divorce ill health and being alone we
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conclude that high income buys life
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satisfaction but not happiness and that
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low income is associated both with low
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life evaluation and low emotional
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well-being okay we'll come back to
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exactly what that means but first I want
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to talk about a 2021 study that adds a
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new important wrinkle to this kind of
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research Matthew Killingsworth of the
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University of Pennsylvania's Wharton
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School he found that happiness kept
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Rising with income with no limit no
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limit for example at
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$75,000 Killingsworth wrote that it's a
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compelling possibility the idea that
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money stops mattering above a certain
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point at least for how people actually
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feel moment to moment but when I looked
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across a wide range of income levels I
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found that all forms of well-being
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continued to rise with income I don't
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see any sort of kink in the curve an
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inflection point where money stops
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mattering instead it keeps increasing
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very interesting but why we should ask
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now if Fame couldn't fill Tom York's Gap
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is money somehow different can
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Killingsworth research be right now I
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personally have a suspicion and it
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starts with a favorite phrase from one
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of my mentors and the phrase is I don't
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know if money buys happiness but it
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certainly buys flexibility it turns out
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that that idea is a key part of
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Killingsworth Theory higher earners are
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happier in part because of an increased
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sense of control over their lives when
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you have more money he says you have
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more choices about how to live your life
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you can likely see this during the covid
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pandemic people living paycheck to
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paycheck who lose their job might need
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to take the first available job to stay
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afloat even if it's one they dislike
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but people with a financial cushion can
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wait for a job that's a better fit
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across decisions big and small having
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more money gives a person more choices
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and a greater sense of autonomy more
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money equals more flexibility more
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autonomy and more satisfaction but we're
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still left with a bit of a puzzle why
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did Conan's results disagree with
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Killingsworth results now fortunately
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those two scientists got together in
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2022 to compare notes and discuss why
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their conclusions were in opposition the
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upshot is that it seems we need to view
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happiness and unhappiness not as
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opposites but as separate phenomena
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altogether the happiness Spectrum for
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example it might show the difference
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between a 10-day vacation in a luxury
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hotel versus a 4-day vacation in a motel
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now both are good additions to life we'd
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probably accept either one but more
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money buys you the better of those two
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but what about unhappiness money can put
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a roof over our heads it can put food in
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our stomachs preventing those two
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unhappy outcomes but a lot of
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unhappiness in life is is untethered
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from money you know money can't cure a
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disease it can't necessarily prevent a
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messy divorce or change the the chemical
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imbalance in your brain the $75,000
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threshold according to Conan and
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Killingworth in their final study they
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said it may represent the point Beyond
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which the miseries that remain are not
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alleviated by high income heartbreak
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bereavement and clinical depression may
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be examples of such miseries Conan and
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Killingworth their joint research allows
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us to answer two crucial questions can
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money increase happiness yes and
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seemingly without limit the nicer and
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nicer and nicer vacation those are nice
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things and we'd rather have that 10day
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vacation in the nice hotel than the
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5-day vacation in the motel but can
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money decrease unhappiness the answer
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there is yes but only to a point now the
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armchair psychologist in me would guess
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that Fame Works similarly in Tom York's
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case well Fame might have made certain
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highs even higher It Like Money Can't
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address many of life's lows here's a
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quick ad and then we'll get back to the
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show every week I send a quick free
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email to thousands of readers that
00:08:12
shares three Simple Things One my new
00:08:15
articles and podcasts two the best
00:08:18
financial content of the week from all
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over the Internet and three a financial
00:08:23
chart that explains some important
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Concept in the news that week it's a
00:08:27
great primer to boost your financial
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know how but Jesse I don't want another
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email well this might not be for you but
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I do hear you which is why I make it
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very short sweet and full of only the
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essentials a whopping 66% of subscribers
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read my email at least once a month
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they're enjoying it and maybe you will
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too you can subscribe for free on the
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homepage at bestter interest. blog again
00:08:52
that's a free no strings attached
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subscription at bestin interest. blog
00:08:57
and with that I now want to bring on
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Jonathan Clemens to the podcast Jonathan
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is the founder and the editor of humble
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dollar he's also the author of A Fistful
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of personal finance books including my
00:09:07
money journey and how to think about
00:09:09
money both of which we talk about today
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Jonathan spent almost 20 years at the
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Wall Street Journal where he was the
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newspaper personal finance columnist
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between October 1994 and April 2008 he
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wrote 1,9 columns for the journal and
00:09:23
for the Wall Street Journal Sunday
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edition he then worked for 6 years at
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City Group where he was the director of
00:09:28
financial education for City's personal
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wealth management before returning to
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the Wall Street Journal for an
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additional 15-month stint as a columnist
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and as I alluded to earlier Jonathan now
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spends his time running humble dollar
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which is a very very educational wellone
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creative personal finance website if you
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subscribe to My Weekly Newsletter you'll
00:09:49
recognize humble dollar because I'd say
00:09:50
most weeks I end up sharing an article
00:09:53
that has Jonathan's fingerprints on it
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either because he was the author or
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because he eded it to its final form so
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without without further Ado here is
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Jonathan
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[Music]
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Clemens Jonathan thank you for joining
00:10:09
us on the best interest podcast and I
00:10:11
was looking at my money Journey your
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book and we can talk about that in in
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some detail and it includes 30 stories
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from 30 different people about their
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unique Financial paths some are smooth
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some are bumpy some are triumphant some
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have some disasters in there and I'm
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curious which of those stories actually
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had the biggest influence on you in in
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your personal financial life and and why
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well all of them had an influence on me
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to the extent that I to a degree know
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all of the contributors I mean all of
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them have also written for this website
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I run humbl dollar.com and so even
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before I received their essays I knew a
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lot about them but uh yeah to me it's s
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like hearing the personal stories of a
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colleague a lot of the details but see
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it all in one place is really
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interesting in terms of the specific
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stories I certainly saw something of
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myself in Mike Sardi M Mike Sardi is the
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youngest contributor to the book he's in
00:11:06
his mid-30s now Mike is a classic
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example of a Super Saver which I
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certainly was from very early on not as
00:11:15
early as Mike and I wasn't as successful
00:11:18
as Mike partly because I you know had
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this habit of having children and that
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that's an expensive preoccupation
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nonetheless you know Mike by the time he
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got into his early 30s had a master
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figure portfolio super impressive for
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somebody so young but even as mik
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amassed that portfolio you know he also
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became more philosophical I mean this
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big goal he set for himself let's get a
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seven figure portfolio he realized that
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maybe he hadd been too Frugal that maybe
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money in of itself is not the goal it's
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not enough and that maybe he was missing
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out on life and I found that really
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interesting it certainly made me reflect
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on my financial Journey which early on
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did involve some pretty severe frugality
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partly out of necessity because I was I
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was a poorly paid journalist in New York
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City but also you know even now now that
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I have plenty of money learning to spend
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has been a struggle for me and I can see
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that it's certainly been a struggle for
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Mike it's not only a struggle for you
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and Mike it's funny I know on humble
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dollar which by the way I think many
00:12:22
listeners are going to be familiar with
00:12:23
because humble dollar articles often
00:12:25
make it into the the best interest
00:12:27
newsletter that goes out weekly dollar
00:12:30
there will be people writing about
00:12:31
financial Independence retirement is a
00:12:33
very very frequent topic on humble
00:12:35
dollar and in both those ideas whether
00:12:37
it's the financial independence movement
00:12:38
or just retirees who are have been
00:12:41
saving and saving and saving forever
00:12:43
switching from saver to spender is this
00:12:46
constant theme in personal finance and
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you know in your time of editing you
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know you created humble dollar and now
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you're the editor and you see all the
00:12:53
Articles have your fingerprints on them
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I I assume is that some sort of
00:12:56
recurring theme that you either see from
00:12:58
your writer
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or just from the readers who are
00:13:01
frequently commenting on humble dollar I
00:13:03
see it in both and there's a reason that
00:13:06
people are financially successful and
00:13:08
it's a you know a reason it's a theme
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that runs through the book my money
00:13:13
Journey which is that you know people
00:13:15
who are financially successful normally
00:13:17
aren't great investors they often make a
00:13:20
lot of financial mistakes but the one
00:13:23
common trait is they are great great
00:13:26
Savers they've saved diligently for
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three or four decades that's how they've
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amassed enough for financial
00:13:33
Independence but having been so diligent
00:13:36
about saving for all those decades it's
00:13:38
awfully hard to turn around and start
00:13:41
spending that money I mean for 80% of
00:13:43
Americans spending money is not a
00:13:46
problem it is not a big issue in this
00:13:48
country being able to spend but for
00:13:50
those people who are Frugal who have had
00:13:53
this lifetime habit of soaking away
00:13:55
money month after month year after year
00:13:58
turning around and starting to spend
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that Nest tic is a struggle yeah there's
00:14:02
there's a bit of a goldilock situation
00:14:04
going on is there where it's too hot too
00:14:06
cold and and not many people are able to
00:14:08
strike that perfect balance in their own
00:14:10
lives too much spending too much saving
00:14:12
but it's it's hard to find that that
00:14:13
right balance and I think one of the
00:14:15
things that people discover as they get
00:14:17
older is two things happen I mean one is
00:14:19
they reach a point where they realize
00:14:21
there's no way you're going to spend all
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of this money so hey I might as well
00:14:24
spend some of it on myself two as you
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get older and I'm 61 so I sort of you
00:14:30
know I look ahead to the people around
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me who are my age and somewhat older and
00:14:34
I realize that come the mid to late 70s
00:14:37
a lot of people lose their taste for
00:14:40
this sort of Exotic Travel that we think
00:14:43
is part of retirement by the time you
00:14:45
get to 75 80 climbing on a plane to make
00:14:50
a transatlantic trip becomes a big deal
00:14:53
I mean even for me now at 61 you know
00:14:56
sitting upright and coach for six or
00:14:58
seven hours on an overnight flight to
00:15:00
London or Paris is a daunting Prospect
00:15:04
and the other thing that you know people
00:15:06
come to appreciate is the joy of giving
00:15:08
away money not just to charity but also
00:15:10
to their family and certainly for me and
00:15:14
certainly for a lot of the readers of
00:15:16
humble dollar and the contributors to it
00:15:19
giving away money becomes a great source
00:15:21
of Joy it's certainly something that is
00:15:23
probably my biggest expenditure in 2024
00:15:26
is giving away money and I think that
00:15:29
also true for a lot of people who are
00:15:30
involved with the site it's really
00:15:31
interesting too because I I would assume
00:15:33
that many of the younger listeners right
00:15:35
now maybe in their 20s and their 30s
00:15:38
that's not something on their radar at
00:15:39
all or if if it is it's maybe a pretty
00:15:41
small budget line item but it just uh
00:15:44
shines a light on the fact that as we
00:15:46
grow older our priorities change whether
00:15:48
it's spending spending priorities maybe
00:15:50
it's lifestyle priorities like the TR
00:15:52
the travel priority that you just
00:15:53
mentioned but it is important for
00:15:55
long-term Savers long-term investors
00:15:57
anyone planning for the long run to be
00:15:59
self-aware to the fact that what you
00:16:02
think you is important right now might
00:16:03
not be important in 10 or 20 or 30 years
00:16:06
you know Jesse that is such an important
00:16:08
point we are very bad at anticipating
00:16:12
what we will want in the future I mean
00:16:15
the life that I envisaged at this age
00:16:18
and what I thought I really wanted is
00:16:21
totally separate from what I what I want
00:16:23
now and this is almost laughable but I
00:16:25
came across to the States from London
00:16:27
1986 you know I was in my early 20s and
00:16:30
I started learning about us personal
00:16:32
finance stop market returns what it
00:16:35
takes to retire and so and I had this
00:16:39
very simple notion and this very simple
00:16:41
dream which was I imagine that if by the
00:16:44
time I was 40 or so I had amassed
00:16:49
$250,000 and I put that in the stock
00:16:51
market and I could Notch seven
00:16:54
percentage points a year more than
00:16:55
inflation that I would have a million
00:16:58
dollars at retirement and I would have
00:17:00
be financially free and then over those
00:17:03
final 20 years while I was earning those
00:17:05
S percentage points a year you know
00:17:07
above inflation like clockwork I would
00:17:09
be able to do pretty much whatever I
00:17:11
want as long as I had a little money
00:17:13
coming in I mean the naivity of that to
00:17:15
imagine that one retirement is All About
00:17:18
The Money Two that the stock market is
00:17:20
going to clock seven percentage points a
00:17:21
year above inflation like clockwork and
00:17:24
three that I was really going to be
00:17:26
happy for a couple of decades basically
00:17:28
not have a career just making a little
00:17:30
bit of money I just I was out of my head
00:17:32
I mean as i' got older what I've
00:17:35
discovered is doing nothing which seems
00:17:38
so tantalizing when you're in your 20s
00:17:41
and 30s you know that thing I can't wait
00:17:43
for the weekend I can't wait till every
00:17:45
day is a weekend and I don't have to go
00:17:47
to the office and I have to don't have
00:17:48
to do any work when you get to my age 61
00:17:51
it's like hey you know doing that work
00:17:54
is actually pretty fulfilling and doing
00:17:56
nothing is really pretty boring yeah and
00:17:58
and you need a sense of purpose you need
00:18:00
a reason to get out of bed in the
00:18:02
morning and I'm at the point where I'm
00:18:05
not sure I'm ever going to retire I
00:18:07
certainly want to work less but I'm not
00:18:09
sure I will ever call it quits entirely
00:18:12
yeah well that's why I think the title
00:18:13
of your book my money Journey it is
00:18:15
Journey right and I think back you're
00:18:17
reminding me Jonathan of Fritz Gilbert
00:18:19
do you know Fritz Gilbert the retirement
00:18:21
Manifesto is his blog but he he writes a
00:18:23
lot about retirement topics and and one
00:18:26
thing that stuck from my conversation
00:18:28
with Fritz is this idea that a lot of
00:18:30
retirees face whether you want to call
00:18:31
it depression or a little bit of malays
00:18:33
or just a little bit of they're they're
00:18:35
a little kind of unored in their life
00:18:37
and their Direction and often it's just
00:18:39
tied back to this fact of careers gave
00:18:42
us so much Direction and so much purpose
00:18:44
and then but going from 100 down to zero
00:18:47
just flipping that switch off is really
00:18:49
hard and and they don't have anything to
00:18:50
retire to so maybe it's work maybe it's
00:18:54
just side Hobbies or just uh
00:18:56
volunteering it it's some sort of
00:18:58
Direction in retirement because I think
00:19:00
I don't I'm not a psychologist but I
00:19:02
know enough people to know that a lot of
00:19:04
people enjoy doing stuff you you need
00:19:06
something to do something to give you a
00:19:07
purpose something to occupy your time
00:19:09
the idea of retiring to just the the
00:19:11
proverbial Beach and Mojitos I don't
00:19:14
think as many people actually are going
00:19:15
to enjoy that as they might think one of
00:19:18
the things that a lot of us have in our
00:19:19
heads is that you know life is going to
00:19:21
be nasty budish and short that we're
00:19:23
going to kill over at any moment and so
00:19:26
we tend to not only run our financial
00:19:28
lives that way but we also plan the rest
00:19:31
of our lives that way that I mean I'll
00:19:33
be here tomorrow so I better you know
00:19:35
one make sure I'm out of the way of any
00:19:37
potential stock market decline but two
00:19:40
you know I better enjoy today in that
00:19:42
sort of conventional fun way you know I
00:19:45
better party I better go out to dinner I
00:19:48
better do this traveling now because I
00:19:50
may not be here to do that next year but
00:19:54
at my not so Grand age of 61 it's
00:19:57
entirely possible
00:19:59
and if this doesn't happen you know
00:20:01
you'll be playing this clip and people
00:20:03
be laughing their asses off but it's
00:20:05
entirely possible that I can live
00:20:06
another three decades am I Really Gonna
00:20:08
spend three decades
00:20:11
relaxing right I mean that would be all
00:20:15
you know half of my adult life spent
00:20:18
doing nothing is that really what I want
00:20:21
to do and the answer is no of course not
00:20:24
I mean if I knew that I was going to
00:20:26
make it to my 90s I would be completely
00:20:29
motivated to keep working or keep
00:20:32
working part-time I would take on longer
00:20:35
term projects I would think about
00:20:37
self-improvement why wouldn't you launch
00:20:39
a new B business in your 60s if you knew
00:20:41
you're going to make it to your 90s and
00:20:43
yet we have this mentality well it's
00:20:45
could all be over tomorrow so not going
00:20:47
to do that I'm gonna go and have you
00:20:49
know fun and I think it's a big mistake
00:20:52
I don't obviously some people do ke over
00:20:54
tomorrow but for for most people they
00:20:57
are going to make it into their 80s if
00:20:59
they're in their 60s they're going to
00:21:00
make it into their 80s and they should
00:21:02
be thinking with a longer term Focus
00:21:06
that's probably a Danny Conan thing
00:21:07
where it's much easier for us to focus
00:21:09
on the proverbial tiger in the grass you
00:21:11
know that that giant risk that's waiting
00:21:13
just around the corner and it occupies
00:21:15
too much of our brain space and and we
00:21:17
forget the fact that actually the
00:21:18
probabilities are in our favor and we're
00:21:20
going to live longer than the most risk
00:21:22
ofse of us might think going back to to
00:21:24
my money Journey Jonathan I was I was
00:21:27
looking onlineer earlier and I found
00:21:29
this list of of eight traits that I I
00:21:31
want to say you put together as you were
00:21:33
writing the book but it's a list of
00:21:34
eight traits that successful investors
00:21:37
tend to have in common can can you walk
00:21:40
us through either some or all of that
00:21:42
list well Jesse the first one I want to
00:21:44
mention is is the obvious one and the
00:21:46
one that we've already talked about
00:21:47
which is the key to Financial Freedom is
00:21:50
good savings habits and it's so obvious
00:21:54
and yet it can't be said often enough I
00:21:57
mean if you want fincial Freedom you
00:21:59
need to be able to control your spending
00:22:01
and you need to suck Away Great gobs of
00:22:04
money you know if you haven't heard that
00:22:06
lesson if you haven't embraced it
00:22:08
embrace it now because that is going to
00:22:10
be the key to Financial Freedom if you
00:22:12
can't control your material desires your
00:22:14
entire life is going to be a struggle so
00:22:17
for goodness sake get a grip on your
00:22:18
spending the other one that I think is
00:22:21
important particularly from my
00:22:24
perspective at the other end of the
00:22:26
journey is it's important to have some
00:22:28
sense for what is enough most of us
00:22:31
spend our lives focusing on having more
00:22:35
more this more that but when you get to
00:22:38
my age you need to look at your
00:22:41
portfolio and say yeah that is enough
00:22:44
that is enough for me and all in favor
00:22:48
of trying to set goals and write them
00:22:51
down so you don't keep moving the
00:22:53
goalpost so if you think your magic
00:22:56
number is 1.5 million when you are age
00:22:59
45 you should write $1.5 million on a
00:23:03
piece of paper and stick it on the
00:23:04
refrigerator so that 15 years later you
00:23:08
don't think hey I really need $4 million
00:23:13
I really need $5 million because if you
00:23:15
have that mentality if you keep moving
00:23:18
the gold poost you will never be
00:23:20
satisfied and I would actually also say
00:23:23
this about Career Success as well you
00:23:27
know at some point we should all step
00:23:30
away from the corporate ladder pursuing
00:23:33
those pay raises and promotions and say
00:23:36
I have had enough success as defined by
00:23:40
society and what I really want to focus
00:23:42
on is things that I find personally
00:23:45
satisfying hopefully things that can
00:23:47
also make you a buck or two but things
00:23:49
that you find personally satisfying so
00:23:51
both in terms of career and in terms of
00:23:54
money you need to have goals where you
00:23:57
say that is enough and then allow
00:24:00
yourself to move on and focus on what I
00:24:04
would argue are more important matters
00:24:05
well there's a phrase in in retirement
00:24:07
planning one more year syndrome is what
00:24:09
they call it right where where and I've
00:24:11
heard it both in traditional retirement
00:24:13
planning and also in in financial
00:24:15
Independence where people set their
00:24:17
goals they know their fi number or they
00:24:19
work with a cfp who's laid out with them
00:24:22
based on your lifestyle here's where you
00:24:24
need to be and they get there and
00:24:26
technically speaking the math works out
00:24:28
I think it goes back to some sort of
00:24:30
psychological hitch for lack of a better
00:24:32
term where the math can work out all
00:24:34
good but something in in these people's
00:24:36
brains says I'm just too worried there's
00:24:38
an anxiety it's what if I quit now what
00:24:41
if there's a market crash a sequence of
00:24:43
returns problem and then I need to go
00:24:45
back to work I'd rather just work one
00:24:47
more year were there any specific
00:24:48
stories or specific writers in the book
00:24:51
that was just a a really poignant part
00:24:53
of their story that's a good question I
00:24:56
actually edited the book two years ago
00:24:59
at this point Jesse totally fair I
00:25:01
cannot actually remember all the stories
00:25:03
in the level of detail where people said
00:25:05
I'm GNA do one more year but certainly
00:25:08
this has actually become a bit of a a
00:25:10
hobby horse for me now I wrote an
00:25:12
article earlier this year and the
00:25:14
headline was fire meets Ice so fire of
00:25:18
course is financial Independence retire
00:25:20
early and ice is an acronym I created
00:25:23
which stands for I'll continue earning
00:25:26
and I think that continuing to earn a
00:25:29
little bit of money through part-time
00:25:31
work through your early retirement years
00:25:35
is psychologically enormously comforting
00:25:39
it's really is hard as we've already
00:25:41
discussed to turn around and start
00:25:43
spending down this heap of savings that
00:25:45
you've amassed and it's comforting to
00:25:49
have a little bit of money continuing
00:25:51
come in and that's why I think parttime
00:25:53
work early in retirement is a great idea
00:25:56
hopefully it's part time work where you
00:25:57
have the flexibility to do the traveling
00:25:59
you want and so on but remember you know
00:26:02
one of the reasons why people are
00:26:04
reluctant to leave the workforce isn't
00:26:06
just because they give up the paycheck
00:26:09
they also lose their identity and if you
00:26:12
continue to do some work and get paid
00:26:14
for it you have an identity I mean
00:26:17
nobody wants to walk around a cocktail
00:26:20
party say hey I'm a
00:26:22
retiree that is not a label that any of
00:26:25
us want you know what what we want to do
00:26:27
is say yeah hey yeah you know I'm a I'm
00:26:29
a freelancer I do this I have this
00:26:32
little business where I do X you know I
00:26:34
do some Consulting whatever it is we all
00:26:37
want an identity and what we do for a
00:26:40
living provides that identity well
00:26:42
speaking of part-time work I found an
00:26:44
article that you wrote I want to say it
00:26:46
was last year Jonathan but you might you
00:26:48
might know better than me but it's
00:26:49
called Jonathan's retirement is that
00:26:51
relatively new maybe the last 12 or 18
00:26:53
months so actually that part of the site
00:26:57
is part of what I call the money guide
00:26:59
so there's a this backbone of the site
00:27:01
is this money guide with little writeups
00:27:05
on a host of different topics everything
00:27:08
from how much you should save to
00:27:09
something you mentioned sequence of
00:27:11
return risk and so on so Jonathan's
00:27:13
retirement is simply a recap of my
00:27:16
retirement strategy which is ever
00:27:18
evolving but it should it is reasonably
00:27:21
accurate got okay so so if it's okay I
00:27:24
actually wanted to share some some of
00:27:25
the high level details from that but
00:27:27
then I want to dive into a few of those
00:27:29
ideas because I think they're very
00:27:30
interesting and and it kind of brings
00:27:31
about some topics that we don't talk
00:27:33
about too much here on the best interest
00:27:35
podcast so we we were talking earlier
00:27:37
about part-time work you you say that
00:27:39
you're semi-retired right now humble
00:27:41
dollar keeps you as busy as ever you've
00:27:42
reduced some of your spending mainly
00:27:44
through a move from the New York City
00:27:46
area to outside of Philadelphia you plan
00:27:48
on delaying Social Security until age 70
00:27:50
which is you know common for people who
00:27:52
are in in a comfortable Financial
00:27:54
circumstances and are likely to lead a
00:27:56
long life which we talked about now your
00:27:58
portfolio even though you're
00:27:59
semi-retired you said you're 61 years
00:28:01
old you're about 80% stocks 20% bonds
00:28:04
right now you don't plan on using the
00:28:06
traditional 4% rule but instead plan on
00:28:09
using a a roughly 5% rule although
00:28:12
you've mentioned in the article that
00:28:14
you're very willing to be flexible in
00:28:15
bad markets and the last one perhaps the
00:28:17
most interesting one from my point of
00:28:19
view is you're considering buying
00:28:20
immediate fixed annuities to provide
00:28:22
lifetime income to supplement social
00:28:25
security income so I'd love to dive into
00:28:28
the those last three ideas as I said
00:28:30
they aren't retirement thoughts that you
00:28:31
hear every day maybe let's start with
00:28:33
the lifetime annuity could you explain
00:28:35
what a fixed lifetime annuity is and
00:28:37
what some of your thought process is
00:28:39
behind that so an immediate fixed
00:28:40
annuity simply involves handing a sum of
00:28:43
money over to an insurance company and
00:28:45
in return they'll cut you a check every
00:28:48
month on occasion it's for a specified
00:28:50
period of time like five or 10 years but
00:28:52
what I'm talking about our lifetime
00:28:54
income annuities the best income annuity
00:28:57
of course is Social Security and that's
00:28:59
why I'm planning to delay Social
00:29:01
Security until age 70 so I get the
00:29:03
largest monthly check possible according
00:29:06
to the Social Security website if I
00:29:07
delay till 70 I will get
00:29:10
$55,500 a year which will easily cover
00:29:13
my fixed living Cost Plus that goes up
00:29:16
with inflation every year to supplement
00:29:18
that I plan to buy some income annuities
00:29:22
to provide additional income on top of
00:29:24
that cover travel expenses and stuff
00:29:26
like that so people say oh well that's a
00:29:28
super conservative strategy you know
00:29:31
you're basically turning this money over
00:29:33
to an insurance company and return for
00:29:36
you know lifetime income but I would
00:29:39
argue that actually what this does is
00:29:41
free me up to be super aggressive I mean
00:29:44
I've carried a high stock allocation
00:29:47
throughout my life and well it says on
00:29:50
the website that you know my target is
00:29:52
80 right now I'm actually closer to 90%
00:29:55
in stocks and people say how can you be
00:29:58
61 years old and have 90% in stocks well
00:30:01
one is because I know that between
00:30:04
Social Security and these income
00:30:06
annuities when I buy them that I W need
00:30:08
to rely on my portfolio for income every
00:30:10
year I will have plenty of money if the
00:30:13
market knows Dives 50% moreover on top
00:30:17
of that Social Security on top of those
00:30:20
income enties I do have a portion of my
00:30:23
portfolio allocated towards short-term
00:30:26
bonds and people say well why is your
00:30:28
Target only 20% work with me here I mean
00:30:31
there is this thing called the 4% rule
00:30:33
right and according to the 4% rule you
00:30:35
know you can withdraw 4% inflation
00:30:38
adjusted from your portfolio every year
00:30:41
and over a 30-year retirement according
00:30:44
to Market history you will not run out
00:30:47
of money no matter how bad the sequence
00:30:49
of return is in the markets while I
00:30:52
don't plan to follow the 4% rule I do
00:30:54
think it is a useful guidepost so let's
00:30:57
say that I want enough money in my
00:30:59
portfolio to make it through a terrible
00:31:02
5-year Market well you take 4% you
00:31:05
multiply it by five and that gives you
00:31:07
20% so that's why I Target 20% of my
00:31:11
portfolio for short-term bonds because
00:31:14
that way I know I can go five years
00:31:16
without pulling any money out of the
00:31:18
stock portion of my portfolio now a lot
00:31:21
of people when they create their stock
00:31:22
Bond mix you know go by rules of thumb
00:31:25
oh you know I'm a balanced investor I
00:31:28
should have 60% stocks 40% bonds and so
00:31:30
I don't work that way I drive it based
00:31:33
on how much cash I'm think I'm going to
00:31:35
need for my portfolio over the next five
00:31:36
years right now I don't need any because
00:31:39
I'm still earning money but if and when
00:31:41
I decide to retire the most I'm going to
00:31:44
be pulling over a 5-year period is going
00:31:45
to be 20% and so that's why I only
00:31:49
allocate 20% to short-term bonds I like
00:31:52
that a lot that's that's a Bottoms Up
00:31:54
portfolio construction very much
00:31:56
math-based which I'm a fan of we've
00:31:58
talked around words on the podcast
00:31:59
before goals-based investing or
00:32:02
something I've called the bucket method
00:32:03
although the problem is other people
00:32:05
have a bucket method that has a
00:32:06
completely different definition so maybe
00:32:07
the bucket method isn't great verbiage
00:32:09
but goals-based investing is good
00:32:11
verbiage or a Bottoms Up portfolio is
00:32:13
good verbiage which is to say let's give
00:32:16
our dollars a job let's give them a
00:32:18
timeline which is most important and
00:32:20
then based on that timeline we can back
00:32:22
into what the appropriate amount of
00:32:24
investment risk we can take is and then
00:32:27
we can back into based on that
00:32:29
investment risk what kind of asset class
00:32:31
is appropriate and absolutely it's it's
00:32:33
something whether it's four years or
00:32:34
five years in your case Jonathan maybe
00:32:36
the more conservative person would say
00:32:37
eight years those kind of near-term
00:32:39
assets should be allocated to bonds
00:32:41
anything in the long run should be all
00:32:44
allocated to something heavier in Risk
00:32:46
stocks being kind of the most common
00:32:48
example and it's very understandable for
00:32:50
someone essentially what I'm saying is
00:32:52
it shouldn't be based on age right just
00:32:54
because you can say well I'm 60 years
00:32:56
old I should therefore be 6040
00:32:58
certainly not we have to talk about the
00:33:00
unique circumstances in someone's life
00:33:02
and the unique needs for money over time
00:33:04
and even their risk tolerance and and
00:33:06
something you've outlined is that your
00:33:08
annuities give you the ability to be
00:33:10
more risk tolerant and going back to the
00:33:12
annuities just for one quick second
00:33:14
whether it's the annuities that that
00:33:15
you're looking at specifically or just
00:33:17
your general knowledge of these fixed
00:33:19
lifetime annuities what kind of payout
00:33:21
do you receive from the annuity once it
00:33:23
start once it's annuitized and roughly
00:33:26
speaking what kind of fees are involved
00:33:28
there annuity is a dirty word and it
00:33:30
deserves to be a dirty word I mean there
00:33:32
are all kinds of atrocious annuities out
00:33:35
there there are these you know index
00:33:36
link annuities there are these variable
00:33:39
annuities this is not what I am talking
00:33:41
about right if somebody tries to sell
00:33:44
you a variable annuity run in the
00:33:46
opposite direction if somebody tries to
00:33:48
sell you an index link annuity run in
00:33:50
the opposite direction but really really
00:33:52
fast annuities as a rule are not a good
00:33:55
product but immediate fix sties are
00:33:58
completely different in the academic
00:34:00
World Finance professors are a huge fan
00:34:02
of them you essentially what it is is
00:34:04
just pulling your money with other
00:34:06
investors in order to provide lifetime
00:34:08
income same as with any other insurance
00:34:11
that you might buy when you buy
00:34:12
homeowners insurance you're all
00:34:14
contributing to a pool of money out of
00:34:17
which the people who have a disastrous
00:34:19
year their home burns down whatever it
00:34:21
is they're the ones who collect so
00:34:23
similarly with an immediate fix andity
00:34:25
what you're doing is contributing to a
00:34:26
pool of money out of which the various
00:34:29
people who participate are then paid and
00:34:31
the people who live longest get the
00:34:33
payments for the longest possible time
00:34:35
it's a way of pulling risk and hedging
00:34:37
the danger that you live to a ripe old
00:34:40
age there are no explicitly listed fees
00:34:45
in an immediate fixed annuity these are
00:34:47
also not a product that insurance
00:34:49
salesmen tend to push because the
00:34:52
commissions on an immediate fixed
00:34:54
annuity tend to be tiny I mean typically
00:34:56
from what I gather if an insurance
00:34:58
salesman sells an immediate fixed
00:35:00
annuity they will make maybe 1% of the
00:35:03
amount that you're investing whereas
00:35:04
I've seen Equity indexed annuities where
00:35:06
the commission is like 14 15% is
00:35:08
completely absurd so mediate fixed
00:35:11
annuities are a very reasonable product
00:35:14
you should avoid nties generally but
00:35:16
this is one that I think deserves a
00:35:18
second look here's a quick ad and then
00:35:21
we'll get back to the show serious
00:35:23
question why do podcasters constantly
00:35:26
ask for ratings and reviews yes they do
00:35:28
help highlight our shows to new
00:35:30
listeners they help strangers find us on
00:35:32
Apple podcast and Spotify it's totally
00:35:34
true and a good reason to ask for
00:35:36
ratings and reviews but I have something
00:35:38
more important at least more important
00:35:40
to me I want to know if you like this
00:35:42
stuff I want to know if you like my
00:35:44
podcast episodes my monologues my guests
00:35:47
the information I share with you and the
00:35:48
stories I tell I want to improve and
00:35:51
make your listening more enjoyable in
00:35:52
the process so yeah I would love to read
00:35:55
your reviews and sure if you throw a
00:35:57
rating in there too that's great if you
00:35:59
like what I'm doing please share it with
00:36:01
me it's such a great feeling to read
00:36:03
your feedback I'd love to read your
00:36:05
review or see a rating on Apple podcast
00:36:08
or Spotify thank you let me hijack the
00:36:11
conversation a little bit more Jesse and
00:36:12
talk a little bit about this High Equity
00:36:15
exposure that I have one I just want to
00:36:18
make it clear that while I'm comfortable
00:36:19
doing this I've always had a high stock
00:36:22
exposure I realized that this is not the
00:36:25
sort of equity exposure that most people
00:36:28
will be comfortable with particularly
00:36:29
when they they reach my age but I've
00:36:31
been very used to you know Market
00:36:33
downturns I've lived through 2000 to
00:36:35
2002 2007 to 2009 the covid crash and so
00:36:40
on I mean none of that has beted me I
00:36:42
mean in each case when the market was
00:36:45
dropping like a rock you know I was
00:36:46
increasing my allocation to stocks I
00:36:48
don't know why I'm wired that way but I
00:36:50
am so to use uh phrase that's popular
00:36:53
why if I've won the game and am I
00:36:56
continuing to play and the reason is
00:36:59
this I want my two kids to inherit a
00:37:03
healthy sum well they already are
00:37:04
working so it's not like I'm going to
00:37:07
leave them enough so they never have to
00:37:09
work another day in their life but I
00:37:10
believe for S middle class upper middle
00:37:13
class families there is this chance to
00:37:16
pay it forward to make sure that your
00:37:20
kids and your grandkids are able to stay
00:37:23
within the middle class and you if you
00:37:26
manage your your money properly and you
00:37:29
not only teach them well about money but
00:37:32
also them a healthy sum you will be able
00:37:35
to replicate your position in the middle
00:37:37
class and that is sort of my goal it's
00:37:40
to make sure that my kids and my
00:37:42
grandkids continue to be financially
00:37:46
successful and I do that not only by
00:37:49
talking to my kids about money on a
00:37:50
regular basis talking to them about how
00:37:52
much they can expect to inherit trying
00:37:54
to make sure that they have good
00:37:56
financial habits but also by leaving
00:38:00
them a decent sum of money it's very
00:38:01
important to me well and getting back to
00:38:03
the topic of timelines I mean it's it's
00:38:05
very interesting that you bring that up
00:38:06
Jonathan because now it's important for
00:38:09
every investor to understand in your
00:38:11
particular case that your timeline for
00:38:14
at least a portion of your assets it's
00:38:15
not really your timeline per se it's
00:38:17
your children's timeline and that adds
00:38:20
decades on to whatever your timeline
00:38:23
would have been and an analogous
00:38:25
scenario is when someone has the hopes
00:38:27
of leaving a large sum of money to say
00:38:29
charity or to an endowment the
00:38:30
University of X changed my life and so I
00:38:33
plan on leaving a million dollars to the
00:38:35
University of X well that's probably
00:38:37
going to be a gift that the university
00:38:39
uses in perpetuity or it might be and in
00:38:42
that case there's a very long timeline
00:38:44
on that particular sum of money and so
00:38:46
if the university had its way they would
00:38:48
probably say we want you to invest it in
00:38:50
the long long run I mean no bonds right
00:38:53
essentially what we're getting back to
00:38:54
here is no bonds and so that that for
00:38:56
that portion of your particular assets
00:38:58
that you plan on leaving to your
00:38:59
children again that's where the the
00:39:01
asset allocation conversation comes back
00:39:03
into play because we'd say yeah it
00:39:05
probably doesn't make sense for any
00:39:06
bonds to be there you want to be in kind
00:39:08
of the longest duration assets you could
00:39:10
find and in your case that leads back to
00:39:13
this 8020 mix that might not seem normal
00:39:16
for every 61y old but for you is very
00:39:19
well thought out you're very comfortable
00:39:20
with it and that really is ultimately
00:39:22
important in the individual investor
00:39:25
conversation so just something else to
00:39:28
think about here and again I think your
00:39:30
audience is probably somewhat younger so
00:39:32
this is maybe aspirational at this point
00:39:34
but I was a father at age 25 which is
00:39:36
ridiculously young nobody should be a
00:39:38
father that that young but I was and so
00:39:41
my kids are in their 30s now and by the
00:39:45
time I check out they will be retirement
00:39:47
age they may will be retired so at that
00:39:50
point my money is not going to be that
00:39:53
useful to them so one of the things that
00:39:56
I've taken to doing in years is starting
00:39:58
to make gifts to them because I realized
00:40:01
the money is going to be much more
00:40:03
useful to them now than it will be later
00:40:05
on you know I'm obviously I'm not going
00:40:07
to be Reckless about it but I am
00:40:09
starting to make Financial gifts to them
00:40:12
within the uh the gift tax limit and you
00:40:16
know it's it means a lot to them it
00:40:18
gives them a sense of Financial Security
00:40:20
I mean they they're both very smart
00:40:22
about money they're they have good jobs
00:40:25
and so on and so on so I'm not really
00:40:26
worried about it somehow corrupting them
00:40:28
um but it does give them an added sense
00:40:30
of Financial Security and I think that's
00:40:31
great well that makes me think of
00:40:33
another interesting topic Jonathan that
00:40:34
just I I would think your career might
00:40:37
have you have you really well positioned
00:40:39
for it and then here you are with two
00:40:40
grown children and now all of a sudden
00:40:42
there is a pretty significant transition
00:40:44
of of assets going on and and the topic
00:40:46
really is just conversations with your
00:40:48
children and and maybe these are
00:40:50
conversations that you would have had
00:40:51
with them growing up and for some of our
00:40:53
younger listeners it's conversations to
00:40:55
have with your eight or 10 or 12
00:40:56
year-old kids but for other listeners
00:40:58
and and for you right now Jonathan it's
00:41:00
conversations to have with your adult
00:41:02
children about the money you're earning
00:41:05
the the wealth of the family how you
00:41:06
choose to spend your money in your case
00:41:08
how you're choosing to gift them money
00:41:10
does that idea does that topic bring
00:41:12
about any interesting thoughts from from
00:41:13
you and your experience so one yes I
00:41:16
think that having an ongoing
00:41:19
conversation about money with your
00:41:21
family from a young age is really
00:41:24
important but let's let's throw in a big
00:41:26
caveat here which is kids are not stupid
00:41:28
you know they will learn not just from
00:41:30
what you say but also from what you do
00:41:32
so if you spend every evening on the
00:41:35
computer online shopping if the Amazon
00:41:39
guy is your best friend that's the
00:41:41
lesson they're going to learn it doesn't
00:41:43
matter what you tell them about
00:41:44
frugality if you don't live those words
00:41:47
they will learn from what you're doing
00:41:49
not from what you're saying so for
00:41:50
goodness sake model good financial
00:41:53
behavior because that is what they will
00:41:55
learn from and and how about on the top
00:41:57
topic of gifting I'm just curious you
00:41:59
know are there any not strings attached
00:42:01
that's the wrong way of saying it but
00:42:03
what is the conversation like when as
00:42:05
you're making these gifts I don't know
00:42:06
is there is there any sort of Greater
00:42:08
kind of estate planning conversation
00:42:10
that you're having with the kids at this
00:42:11
point any sort of dialogue that goes
00:42:13
along with here's this pretty
00:42:15
significant gift from me to you because
00:42:17
it's probably useful more useful to you
00:42:19
right now than it will be in 30 years so
00:42:21
a couple points here one is I have been
00:42:24
giving my kids money from relatively
00:42:27
early on and so they are used to
00:42:30
handling sums of money they've shown to
00:42:32
me that they're not going to be
00:42:35
propagate with it so I don't feel like I
00:42:38
need to sort of give them money with
00:42:40
strings attached I know they're going to
00:42:42
use it sensibly we've got over that
00:42:44
hurdle I mean obviously if if you give
00:42:46
money to your kids and they immediately
00:42:48
squander it the alarm Bell should be
00:42:50
going off and you should be more careful
00:42:52
with the next gift I mean that's why if
00:42:54
you're going to give Financial gifts to
00:42:55
your kids you want to St small and work
00:42:59
up over time so that you see how they
00:43:02
handle it but too you I'm super open
00:43:05
with my kids I mean they know the size
00:43:06
of my portfolio when I revise my will I
00:43:09
immediately you know scan it and email
00:43:12
the PDF to them you know they know who
00:43:14
the beneficiaries are on my IRAs and so
00:43:18
on and so on I'm totally open about it
00:43:20
and I think you know everybody should be
00:43:22
in fact I this may not sound like a
00:43:24
wonderful experience but in February I
00:43:26
flew down down to Florida to B Ron where
00:43:29
my mother lives in a Continuing Care
00:43:30
retirement community she's 84 years old
00:43:33
about to turn 85 and the explicit reason
00:43:37
I went down was to spend time touring
00:43:41
her apartment at the Continuing Care
00:43:42
retirement community so that she could
00:43:44
show me where everything was what's
00:43:46
really important to her who she wants to
00:43:48
get what I realize you know many
00:43:51
families you know money is a taboo topic
00:43:53
and it they're on conversations like
00:43:55
that but in the case of my mother you
00:43:56
know she's modeling great Behavior there
00:43:58
she's showing that she's completely open
00:44:01
about money and you when she goes things
00:44:05
should be super easy in fact my mother
00:44:07
is so concerned that her paring will be
00:44:10
super easy that my sister and I joke
00:44:12
that if she could she'd figure out a way
00:44:14
to bury herself I mean she's just she is
00:44:17
so determined that it'd be as easy as
00:44:19
possible for us well well thank you for
00:44:21
for sharing that with us Jonathan thank
00:44:23
you for sharing your money Journey your
00:44:25
family's money journey and and doing so
00:44:28
I mean this is going to be very punny
00:44:29
but doing so very humbly today if they
00:44:31
want to find a copy of my money Journey
00:44:33
your book if they want to read your work
00:44:36
and and the amazing roster of author's
00:44:38
work at humble dollar how can listeners
00:44:41
reach out to you or or find the various
00:44:43
pieces of work that that you've
00:44:44
contributed to check out humbled
00:44:46
dollar.com huge number of Articles
00:44:49
available including you know countless
00:44:51
articles by me we're putting up a couple
00:44:53
new pieces of content every day if you
00:44:56
dig into the ite you'll find that
00:44:58
articles are organized by writer so you
00:45:01
if there's a writer you like you can go
00:45:02
back and read their past articles I mean
00:45:04
one of the things that you know Jesse is
00:45:06
that personal finance tends to be pretty
00:45:08
Timeless you know people get wound up
00:45:11
because the market went up or down today
00:45:13
you know what's it going to do tomorrow
00:45:14
blah blah blah blah blah but the fact is
00:45:17
the principles of sound personal
00:45:20
financial management are pretty Timeless
00:45:22
and if you come to humbl doll.com and
00:45:24
you read a bunch of the the articles
00:45:27
you'll get a lot of wisdom including
00:45:29
some wisdom from this guy called Jesse
00:45:30
Kramer who's you know written up one
00:45:32
piece for the site and we got another
00:45:33
one on Deck by you in terms of my books
00:45:37
obviously they're all available from
00:45:39
amazon.com if you're going to read any
00:45:41
of what any of them yes my money journey
00:45:43
I think is a good read the other book
00:45:44
for which I'm best known is a book
00:45:47
called How to think about money which
00:45:48
came out in 200 16 and it's really a
00:45:52
book about how to think about money
00:45:55
about my financial philosophy
00:45:57
it has been the the bestselling book
00:45:59
that I have written It's relatively easy
00:46:01
read it's not a long book and if you
00:46:04
want to see how I think and learn a bit
00:46:07
more about managing money I would
00:46:08
encourage folks to pick up that one
00:46:09
wonderful we'll make sure we will throw
00:46:11
links not only to Humble dollar but
00:46:13
direct Amazon links to your books in the
00:46:15
show notes listeners you can check them
00:46:17
out there and Jonathan Clemens thank you
00:46:19
for joining us on the best interest
00:46:21
podcast hey Jesse it's been a lot of fun
00:46:23
thank
00:46:24
you thanks for tuning in to this episode
00:46:26
episode of the best interest podcast if
00:46:29
you have a question for Jesse to answer
00:46:30
on a future episode send him an email at
00:46:33
Jesse bestter interest. blog again
00:46:36
that's Jesse at bestter interest. blog
00:46:39
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00:46:50
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00:46:53
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the best interest podcast is a personal
00:46:59
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00:47:00
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00:47:03
Financial advice and is not prescriptive
00:47:05
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