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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello and welcome to episode 98
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of the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer later in today's episode we
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have a repeat guest doc G Jordan grummet
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who was originally here on episode 61 of
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the best interest podcast is coming back
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for round two today he's going to be
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talking to us a little bit about some of
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the research that he's been doing
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recently some of the writing he's been
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doing recently all about purpose because
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a lot of this financial planning
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personal finance investing stuff we do
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like what's it all for what's the point
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of it all well it's to live our life and
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to that we need to understand a little
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bit about purpose to understand what
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drives us there but first we have a
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review of the week from Blue Horizon
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King who left a five-star review on
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Apple podcast and wrote a crisp overview
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to your personal finance queries I got
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introduced to the best interest podcast
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by another great one the long-term
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investor hosted by Peter lazerov and
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yeah there little note from Jesse here
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that is a terrific podcast Peter's been
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here on the best interest and I've been
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on Peter's podcast now back to the
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review I love Jesse's simple yet
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thorough analysis of complex Financial
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topics which helped me a lot and I'm
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sure many others to answer some of my
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long-standing queries on ideal
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investment portfolios retirement
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planning safe withdrawal rates tax
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optimization and much more I love your
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show it's content the style of delivery
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and I'm thankful that you share your
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great knowledge with us kudos to your
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passion and all the very best to the
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best interest well Blue Horizon King
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thank you so much for those kind words
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and as always please feel free to shoot
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me an email to Jesse best bestin
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interest. blog and I'll get you hooked
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up with a super soft bestest t-shirt to
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say thank you now before Jordan comes on
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and even before that usually I would do
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a little monologue I'll do a little
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monologue today but before we get to the
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monologue I want to make a quick special
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announcement this is episode 98 which
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means we are two episodes away from
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episode 100 which you know here in our
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base 10 numerical system thanks to the
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Romans that's a big number for us so
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we're going to do something fun and
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special for episode 100 it'll be fun and
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kind of a unique content for the episode
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that I think you guys will enjoy we're
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going to do a minor bit of rebranding
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for episode 100 I don't want to give
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away the secret too soon the best
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interest will still exist in some form
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or fashion here but the podcast might
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look and be titled slightly differently
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moving forward after episode 100 and
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I'll explain why when that episode comes
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out but anyway I just want to uh do a
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little bit of advertising and marketing
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beforehand to get you listeners excited
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for what should be a fun and interesting
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and hopefully enjoyable episode and a
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celebratory episode coming up soon on
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episode 100 of the podcast now before we
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get to Jordan today I've got some
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thoughts on purpose I'm going to chime
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in with a little bit of my thoughts and
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then we're going to hear what Jordan the
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real expert has to say about it we want
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to start with The Human Condition we're
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going deep we're diving straight into
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the deep end The Human Condition it's
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one of those grand mysterious ideas that
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philosophers have pondered for centuries
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and Poets have tried to capture in verse
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but I think if we're honest with
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ourselves if you're anything like most
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of us you've probably thought about it
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more than once while lying awake at 3:00
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a.m. wondering what the heck you're
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doing with your life what is this whole
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purpose thing about anyway why do we
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wake up every morning you know we brush
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our teeth we make our coffee we we put
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our clothes on we start getting on that
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treadmill of life we drive to work we
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hustle all day we wait in line for a
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pootle bowl at night what's the point of
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it all sure we get some answers from
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books from religion maybe from a
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motivational podcast or two I'm not
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doing much motivating here on the best
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interest I'm a little more informational
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than motivational but anyway at the end
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of the day the truth is it's not always
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as clear as we'd like it to be that
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purpose the meaning of life The Human
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Condition it's not always clear as we'd
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like it to be that kind of leads us to
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this eternal as far as uh the human race
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goes this Eternal Quest for purpose
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humans are hardwired to seek purpose if
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we didn't have that drive to find
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meaning we might just be floating around
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like jellyfish drifting wherever the
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current takes us but no our brains for
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good or bad for better or worse we want
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more we want to make sense of our
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existence we want to know why we're here
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what our role is and what we're supposed
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to be doing with this crazy thing called
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life not just about the ambition and
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that search for purpose it's not just
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about personal ambition or career it's a
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question that's gwed at hum Minds for
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ages to some extent it's the question of
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why do we exist how do we exist in the
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first place and for most of us that
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search can feel like a maze it stretches
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on for Miles there's no map there's no
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GPS we chase our career goals we Chase
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relationships we seek personal growth we
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definitely seek societal approval and
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even after we tick off all of those
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success boxes we still wonder is this it
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or maybe we move the goal posts even
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further away right we have to go PA more
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boxes to tick off and if we take a
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moment and we think of all the advice
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that people throw our way to follow our
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passion or to live your truth or the
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secret to life is love and relationships
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it all sounds nice but sometimes it
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feels like those are just clever sound
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bites meant to get us to buy a self-
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health book or sign up for some pricey
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retreat in Bali to do the things that
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that really unlock the meaning of life
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or so we're led to believe or are those
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just ways to distract ourselves from
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some bigger existential Harder To answer
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question now the tricky part or one of
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the tricky Parts I suppose about purpose
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is that it's simply different for
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everybody some people find it in their
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career right they're doctors their
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Engineers their artists and that
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practician that career has paved a clear
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path for them and they're deeply
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fulfilled by it other people might find
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purpose in raising a family or in making
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a difference in their Community or
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simply in the pursuit of just personal
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peace and happiness you know some people
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find a lot of purpose in meditation of
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just calming themselves Within
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but the kicker at the end of the day is
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that it's not always immediately obvious
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what our purpose is sometimes you don't
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even know what you're looking for until
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you find it and sometimes you can spend
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years wandering aimlessly hoping
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something or someone or anything or
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anyone will give you that aha moment
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that I found it that I've found my
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purpose philosophers have long argued
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about whether life has inherent meaning
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or if we must create it ourselves on one
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end you've got an existentialist like
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Jean Paul SRA who believed that life is
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is absurd and we're just kind of thrown
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into existence with no real reason we
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have to create our own meaning sarra
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would say that sounds Bleak but for some
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people it's also a little bit liberating
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right you are the architect of your life
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you decide what's meaningful you decide
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what brings value and then there are
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people who would argue that meaning
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comes from something greater than us it
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could be religion it could be nature it
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could be the universe itself some people
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believe in a higher power and that their
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life's meaning is already mapped out for
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them waiting for them to follow it and
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hey if that's the lens you choose to
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wear then life can feel like a pretty
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beautiful tapestry of connections and
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signs and experiences that all Point
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towards something more profound than
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that day-to-day grind that you're going
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through I get it let's not forget the
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fact that the search for meaning can
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sometimes lead us to go to unexpected
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places for some people meaning doesn't
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always come in Grand Cosmic Events maybe
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meaning comes in small seemingly
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insignificant moments a shared laugh
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with a friend the sound of waves
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crashing against the shore the
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satisfaction of finishing a project
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you've poured your heart into maybe
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finishing a podcast episode hey
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personally I will say when I walk
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outside at night and it's like a cold
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snowy Upstate New York night and I look
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up and I see you know the Stars against
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the night sky it does kind of bring
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things into focus and I I feel something
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in that moment that's a little hard to
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put your finger on but it's definitely a
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unique feeling and I think it's in line
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with what we're talking about here
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whatever it is life's meaning might not
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be some elusive unreachable prize but
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it's something that's found in just the
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most ordinary moments I think that's
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something that David Foster Wallace if
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you've heard me talk about many times
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here on the podcast it's something he
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has talked about in many different ways
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including in that very famous speech
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that I love this is water now here's an
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interesting thought can the search for
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purpose and meaning itself become
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meaningful could it be that the
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searching not necessarily the finding
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becomes the most profound part of being
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a Human After All if we're handed the
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answers on a silver platter that's kind
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of boring the struggle the uncertainty
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the constant shifting of our desires and
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our aspirations that might be where the
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richness of life actually lies the
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greatest novels the most celebrated
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films the best songs they're all about
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people navigating some form of
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existential crisis Luke Skywalker at the
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beginning of Star Wars right what's he
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going to do with his life well he goes
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out and seeks Adventure okay it could be
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a hero trying to find their Destiny or
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an ordinary person figuring out just how
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to live authentically these stories
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resonate with us because they tap into
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our shared Human Experience maybe our
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search for purpose and meaning isn't
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about reaching a final destination but
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rather about embracing the journey maybe
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it's about staying curious about
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remaining open to new ideas to New
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Perspectives about diving into the
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unknown right searching for something
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new or just enjoying the ride along the
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way because let's face it if we figured
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it all out life would lose a little bit
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of its mystery a little bit of its
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glitter and we'd miss out on the joy of
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Discovery it's also worth considering
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that maybe the search for purpose and
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meaning is something that evolves over
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time right it's not a one-time thing
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that you check off your list once you
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figured it out it's kind of like a
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financial plan right it's not a onetime
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thing it's ongoing as we grow our sense
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of purpose changes what felt meaningful
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when we were 18 might not be the same as
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25 or 33 or 40 or 50 and Beyond and
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that's okay life can be fluid our
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experiences our relationships our
00:09:46
personal growth they all shift and so
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too should our understanding of what
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truly matters perhaps that's the beauty
00:09:52
of being really human the search itself
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it's an ongoing Adventure it's one that
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never really ends we evolve and as we do
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our relationship with purpose and
00:09:59
meaning it evolves too each chapter of
00:10:02
life has its own flavor of these things
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right each each season of life and
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that's something worth celebrating in
00:10:07
and of itself maybe we shouldn't stress
00:10:09
too much about finding the ultimate
00:10:11
purpose quote unquote or the meaning of
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life maybe the key to the human
00:10:15
condition is embracing the mystery the
00:10:17
uncertainty the possibility that we
00:10:19
might not ever have all the answers and
00:10:21
that's okay that's perfectly fine
00:10:24
instead just keep on searching keep
00:10:26
questioning keep finding joy in the
00:10:28
little day-to-day moments because in the
00:10:29
end it's not about having it all figured
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out it's about living fully while we
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still can and if that answer isn't quite
00:10:36
good enough for you I understand but if
00:10:38
you're ever in doubt just remember even
00:10:40
the greatest minds they haven't figured
00:10:41
it out either here's a quick ad and then
00:10:44
we'll get back to the show every week I
00:10:46
send a quick free email to thousands of
00:10:48
readers that shares three Simple Things
00:10:51
One my new articles and podcasts two the
00:10:54
best financial content of the week from
00:10:56
all over the Internet and three a
00:10:58
financial chart that explains some
00:11:00
important Concept in the news that week
00:11:03
it's a great primer to boost your
00:11:05
financial knowhow but Jessie I don't
00:11:08
want another email well this might not
00:11:10
be for you but I do hear you which is
00:11:12
why I make it very short sweet and full
00:11:14
of only the essentials a whopping 66% of
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subscribers read my email at least once
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a month they're enjoying it and maybe
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you will too you can subscribe for free
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on the homepage at bestter interest.
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blog again that's a free no strings
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attached subscription at bestin
00:11:32
interest. blog now those are just my
00:11:34
thoughts but to hear some more profound
00:11:37
thoughts and to be honest some thoughts
00:11:38
that I think you really can apply into
00:11:40
your life we're going to bring on Jordan
00:11:42
grummet here Jordan grummet doc G as
00:11:44
he's better known he found the spark to
00:11:46
become a doctor a medical doctor after a
00:11:48
deeply personal event reshaped his
00:11:50
life's trajectory the unexpected loss of
00:11:52
his father who was an oncologist ignited
00:11:55
a passion within Jordan to practice
00:11:57
medicine himself and it instilled a
00:11:58
unique vantage point that later melded
00:12:00
seamlessly with his financial expertise
00:12:03
this convergence of roles Financial
00:12:05
expert and doctor has spurred him to
00:12:07
explore profound Notions like wealth
00:12:09
abundance and financial independence
00:12:10
with a thoughtful and critical lens in
00:12:13
August of 2022 Jordan's literary Pursuit
00:12:15
took shape in his book taking stock a
00:12:18
hospice doctor's advice on financial
00:12:20
Independence Building Wealth and living
00:12:22
a regret-free life it was published in
00:12:24
August 22 by uh ulyses press and now his
00:12:27
second book called The purpose code will
00:12:29
be published in January 2025 in fact by
00:12:32
the time you're hearing these words as
00:12:33
I'm speaking here in December if I'm
00:12:35
being honest with you the book actually
00:12:37
might be out or it soon will be out by
00:12:38
the time you're hearing these words so
00:12:40
look up the purpose code published by
00:12:42
Herman House Press Jordan's Journey
00:12:45
intertwines medical insight and
00:12:47
financial wisdom resonating deeply with
00:12:49
those seeking a balanced meaningful life
00:12:51
and without further Ado here is Jordan
00:12:54
grummet dog for a second time on the
00:12:56
best interest podcast
00:13:03
Jordan thank you for joining us again
00:13:05
here on the best interest podcast today
00:13:07
and I want to set the stage a little bit
00:13:09
for our listeners because we we've got
00:13:10
an interesting unique topic today and my
00:13:12
understanding is that the Genesis of
00:13:14
this topic came to you in a pretty
00:13:16
unique way uh and for listeners who
00:13:18
don't know Jordan's a very popular
00:13:20
speaker at personal finance conferences
00:13:23
at investing conferences and you know
00:13:25
you you speak at in a lot of public
00:13:27
forums and you you noticed a pattern
00:13:30
that people were coming up to you after
00:13:31
some of your talks after some of your
00:13:33
speeches and sure I'm sure a lot of
00:13:35
people were thankful intrigued but some
00:13:38
people would come up to you angry and
00:13:40
and you notice this pattern over time
00:13:42
what were these people angry about well
00:13:44
let me set this up for you so for those
00:13:46
of you who don't know me I am a
00:13:49
physician who burned out in medicine
00:13:51
discovered personal finance realized I
00:13:53
could step away but only kept one part
00:13:55
of medicine which was filling me up
00:13:57
which was being a hospice doctor dealing
00:13:58
with DET terminally ill and so I dove
00:14:01
into personal finance I started a
00:14:02
personal finance podcast and I would
00:14:04
have these Financial Independence people
00:14:06
on these business people on these people
00:14:08
who are kind of Masters of their
00:14:10
Universe making lots of money and I'd
00:14:12
ask them okay what's enough and what's
00:14:15
your why behind all this and I got a lot
00:14:17
of blank stairs and what I realized is
00:14:20
that my patients on my deathbeds could
00:14:22
talk to me about regrets and all the all
00:14:24
they wish they had done in life and that
00:14:27
type of information was exactly what all
00:14:29
my personal finance people needed to
00:14:31
hear what is important in life it's
00:14:33
certainly not making millions of dollars
00:14:35
and it's not working those nights and
00:14:36
weekends what my people on their
00:14:38
deathbeds were saying is I really regret
00:14:40
that I didn't do X Y and Z I really
00:14:42
regret I didn't live a life that was
00:14:44
more unique to who I am and what I care
00:14:47
about and so I wrote a book called
00:14:49
taking stock which was all about what
00:14:50
the dying could teach us about money and
00:14:51
life and a main premise of that book is
00:14:53
that we should really put our purpose
00:14:55
first and build a financial living or
00:14:58
build the financial framework around it
00:15:01
so I went to take this message to the
00:15:03
people I went to a bunch of conferences
00:15:05
and I talked and marketed I talked about
00:15:07
and marketed in my book and people would
00:15:10
come up at the end of my talk and they'd
00:15:11
be angry and the first time this
00:15:12
happened I thought it was just a one-off
00:15:14
but it kept happening over and over
00:15:16
again and people would look at me and
00:15:17
say you know this is wonderful and
00:15:19
everything but you keep on telling me I
00:15:20
need to find my purpose and I've been
00:15:22
looking for my purpose forever I don't
00:15:24
know what it is in fact I'm so
00:15:25
frustrated I don't think there is a
00:15:27
purpose so will you please stop telling
00:15:30
me to find my purpose this of course
00:15:32
made me do a big deep dive into purpose
00:15:34
I looked at all the scientific
00:15:35
literature and information I found out
00:15:37
two things and they seem to contradict
00:15:39
each other first and foremost purpose in
00:15:42
life is associated with health longevity
00:15:45
and happiness tons of studies very very
00:15:47
clear on the other hand I found other
00:15:49
studies that show that up to 91% of
00:15:51
people at some point in their life get
00:15:53
something called purpose anxiety this
00:15:55
idea that finding their purpose causes
00:15:59
stress and causes them to be frustrated
00:16:01
and they actually end up depressed and
00:16:02
not happy so this was a paradox and I
00:16:05
set out to resolve this Paradox and I
00:16:07
came to the conclusion that we just
00:16:09
totally get purpose wrong it's not one
00:16:11
thing it's most likely two and one of
00:16:13
those is more associated with anxiety
00:16:15
and the other is more associated with
00:16:17
health happiness and Longevity and so I
00:16:19
set out to write this book The purpose
00:16:20
code to help people pursue the right
00:16:22
version of purpose uh so they could be
00:16:24
happier I know in the book you call them
00:16:26
kind of the capital P and the Little P
00:16:28
purpose and you explained them really
00:16:30
well in the book but can you talk to us
00:16:31
a little bit about maybe some examples
00:16:33
of or just think of someone going
00:16:35
through life what's the two examples of
00:16:37
those different types of purpose I can
00:16:38
give you 100% example based on me right
00:16:41
so let's talk about the two different
00:16:43
types of purpose they are big p purpose
00:16:45
and Little P purpose big p purpose is
00:16:47
Big audacious purpose Associated mostly
00:16:50
with goals usually because we live in
00:16:53
America these are Big audacious goals
00:16:55
like if you can think it you can build
00:16:56
it so we're talking about becoming a
00:16:58
billionaire we're talking about curing
00:17:00
cancer we're talking about traveling to
00:17:01
the Moon all these big things we dream
00:17:03
that we can build usually they're very
00:17:05
goal oriented They're All or Nothing
00:17:07
they're very easy to fail and the
00:17:09
problem is most of us don't have agency
00:17:11
to actually achieve them we're not the
00:17:12
right people at the right time saying
00:17:14
the right things with a good deal of
00:17:16
luck and maybe the right genetics so the
00:17:18
problem with this kind of purpose is
00:17:19
it's really easy to fail and therefore
00:17:20
it's more scarcity mindset oriented only
00:17:23
a few people are going to get there
00:17:25
let's compare that to Little P purpose
00:17:27
which is process Orient ented not goal
00:17:29
oriented therefore it is very abundant
00:17:31
think about the million things you can
00:17:32
enjoy the process of doing instead of
00:17:34
all or nothing this is all or all it's
00:17:37
almost impossible to fail so let me give
00:17:39
you an example me and podcasting let's
00:17:42
compare and contrast I love podcasting
00:17:45
it is my little p purpose when I get
00:17:47
behind the microphone and get to
00:17:48
interview someone it lights me up even
00:17:51
if I produce that episode put it out
00:17:53
there and no one listens to it I still
00:17:55
think it was a really good hour that I
00:17:58
spent interviewing someone but let's
00:18:00
turn that into big p purpose let's say I
00:18:02
decide that I want to get a million
00:18:04
downloads every month that is big
00:18:07
audacious purpose that's really really
00:18:09
difficult the problem is How likely is
00:18:12
it that I'm going to get there to do
00:18:14
that I have to be the right person at
00:18:15
the right time saying the right things I
00:18:16
probably have to put a decent amount of
00:18:18
money and time into it I probably have
00:18:20
to be a little bit lucky like did I get
00:18:21
interviewed by someone big or did I get
00:18:23
mentioned in the newspaper that's big
00:18:26
audacious purpose and the problem is to
00:18:28
get there I might have to start doing
00:18:30
things I don't like so I'm not a big fan
00:18:32
of social media but if I really want to
00:18:34
have a million downloads a month I'm G
00:18:36
to have to get on social media all the
00:18:37
time maybe I'm G to have to write a
00:18:39
newsletter and you know what I don't
00:18:40
want to write a newsletter I don't enjoy
00:18:41
doing that so I could spend my time
00:18:44
doing things I really don't like doing
00:18:46
to get to this goal it's big p purpose
00:18:49
if I don't get to the goal I'm going to
00:18:51
be frustrated and I'm going to film my
00:18:53
time with activities I don't love so
00:18:54
it's not going to feel very great but
00:18:56
let's say I get there so I spent 90% my
00:18:59
time abandoning what I love which is
00:19:01
that 1 hour of interviewing and instead
00:19:03
doing social media and writing
00:19:04
newsletters all these things I don't
00:19:05
love so I spent all this time doing
00:19:07
things I don't love I get to the million
00:19:09
downloads and I'm happy but how long am
00:19:11
I happy for a day a week a year at some
00:19:14
point I habituate back down to my level
00:19:16
of happiness I was at before and then
00:19:19
I'm back to figuring well what am I
00:19:21
going to now get two million downloads a
00:19:22
month and then I'm back on that
00:19:24
treadmill doing things I don't like what
00:19:26
happens is I end up spending most of my
00:19:28
time I'm not enjoying myself in pursuit
00:19:30
of this goal that only makes me happy
00:19:32
for a short period of time and so that's
00:19:35
the difference between big p purpose and
00:19:36
little PE purpose and I hear people
00:19:38
saying yeah but don't you want to
00:19:39
improve yourself don't you want to grow
00:19:41
and so I'd say certainly and while doing
00:19:44
my little p purpose I love interviewing
00:19:46
people I can go and try to make
00:19:48
incremental gain things that I have
00:19:50
agency over so maybe I want to become a
00:19:53
better interviewer so I can listen to
00:19:55
all sorts of really good interviewers on
00:19:56
podcast I can take a class on
00:19:58
interviewing people I can read up on the
00:20:00
blogs and listen to the podcast about
00:20:02
interviewing people and I probably will
00:20:03
make some incremental gain so that's
00:20:05
something I have agency over but if I
00:20:07
say I want a million more downloads I
00:20:09
have much less agency over that and in
00:20:11
fact the activities I need to do to
00:20:13
achieve that are probably not as joyful
00:20:15
and so that's a good example of what big
00:20:18
p purpose looks like versus Little P
00:20:20
purpose and just so I'm clear maybe so
00:20:22
the listeners are clear it sound if my
00:20:25
definitions are correct you were saying
00:20:27
that a lot of the anxiety we feel over
00:20:29
our purpose is tied to the big p purpose
00:20:32
because it is so much out of our control
00:20:33
is that right it is it is and we all
00:20:36
have purpose anxiety because of this and
00:20:38
so a lot of people question well why do
00:20:40
we get purpose anxiety like why is it so
00:20:42
common MH well if you look at it our
00:20:44
society is pushing us towards big p
00:20:47
purpose let me give you three examples
00:20:49
yeah influencers if you watch Tik Tok or
00:20:52
Instagram you're going to see a bunch of
00:20:54
influencers and what are they going to
00:20:55
show you images of they're going to show
00:20:57
you images of pack abs and wearing the
00:21:00
most expensive clothes and traveling to
00:21:02
Exotic countries and running seven fig
00:21:06
businesses they're not doing that for
00:21:08
you they're trying to get you to co-opt
00:21:10
their version of purpose so they can
00:21:11
sell you something so you'll either
00:21:13
follow them or you'll buy whatever
00:21:15
they're advertising it's not meant for
00:21:18
you but it is selling you this version
00:21:20
of purpose let's look at marketing and
00:21:23
advertising same thing it used to be we
00:21:25
watched TV and there were commercials
00:21:26
but now there's commercials on
00:21:27
everything but what are advertisers
00:21:29
trying to sell you they're putting these
00:21:30
images in front of your face of people
00:21:32
doing these fantastic amazing things to
00:21:35
sell you a lifestyle so you will co-opt
00:21:37
that version of purpose so you'll buy
00:21:39
the thing but it's not just social media
00:21:42
not just inter influencers and
00:21:43
advertisers it's even your family in
00:21:45
society your family is trying to sell
00:21:47
you this vision of your parents are
00:21:49
trying to get you to become a CPA or a
00:21:50
doctor or a lawyer or some kind of big
00:21:53
version of career achievement or they're
00:21:57
trying to get you not to make the same
00:21:58
mistakes they made and so they're giving
00:22:00
you this big audacious purpose it is
00:22:03
very stressful for your average young
00:22:06
person because we're being sold this
00:22:07
version of purpose and it's coming from
00:22:10
everywhere but the problem is most of
00:22:13
the time that version of purpose is very
00:22:15
hard to achieve and usually it's someone
00:22:17
else's version of purpose and not yours
00:22:20
and because of that that's very
00:22:22
anxiety-provoking it's pervasive in
00:22:25
society today here's a quick ad and and
00:22:28
then we'll get back to the show one of
00:22:30
the more common questions I hear is
00:22:32
Jesse what do you like in use books
00:22:34
blogs podcasts even Banks and brokerage
00:22:37
firms what are your recommendations so
00:22:40
to answer that question I put together a
00:22:42
web page you can check it out at bestter
00:22:45
interest. blogrecommended
00:22:51
to check out how I'm improving my
00:22:54
financial life what are some experiments
00:22:57
or I don't to say lessons or I'm
00:22:59
thinking of something actionable that
00:23:01
someone can take and maybe you dive into
00:23:04
this in the book a little bit about okay
00:23:06
let me try to sit down here as I am
00:23:08
before you Jordan and and let me try to
00:23:09
identify what I think my big p purpose
00:23:12
is or at least what I've told myself so
00:23:14
far what my big p purpose is but then
00:23:16
ideally especially if it is
00:23:19
anxiety-provoking I want to hone in on
00:23:22
something that is much more my true big
00:23:25
p purpose or or perhaps it's less
00:23:27
audacious it's more reasonable and
00:23:29
therefore it it just naturally will be
00:23:31
less anxiety-provoking is there anything
00:23:32
we can do on that front first and
00:23:34
foremost there's nothing good about big
00:23:35
PE purpose so you do not want big p
00:23:37
purpose because big p purpose is very
00:23:39
goal oriented and enough and is very
00:23:41
frustrating what you really want is
00:23:42
Little P purpose so the question I get
00:23:44
all the time is how do I find my purpose
00:23:47
so the first thing I say is you don't
00:23:48
find your purpose you build or create it
00:23:50
so this is a very active process where
00:23:53
you actually have to do the work so you
00:23:56
don't find it you create it but a lot of
00:23:59
people say well I don't know what
00:24:01
excites me so it is true you have to
00:24:03
have an idea of what those inklings
00:24:05
those beckoning are to things that you
00:24:07
might find Joyful and then build purpose
00:24:09
around those those are what I call
00:24:11
purpose anchors so what people really
00:24:13
want to find out is well how do I
00:24:15
identify my purpose anchor so I can
00:24:17
build a life of purpose around them and
00:24:20
they're really some basic easy ways to
00:24:22
do this when you lower the stakes when
00:24:25
it's not like I have to find this one
00:24:27
big thing that's either going to make me
00:24:29
a happy person or I won't find it and
00:24:31
everything else fails when we lower
00:24:33
those stakes and say no you're just
00:24:35
looking for a few things you might enjoy
00:24:36
doing and then you're going to build
00:24:37
purpose around them it becomes really
00:24:40
easy so let me give you three or four
00:24:42
examples of an easy way to find your
00:24:44
purpose anchors I always talk about with
00:24:47
my hospice patients the Life review it's
00:24:48
a structured series of questions we ask
00:24:50
them about their lives this is biggest
00:24:52
successes biggest failures helps them
00:24:54
come to terms with their life but a big
00:24:56
part of that is regrets and so for young
00:24:58
young people I'd really love to look at
00:24:59
regrets what does regret feel like to
00:25:02
you when you're on your dying bed it's
00:25:04
really disappointing because you don't
00:25:05
have the energy time or ability to
00:25:07
really change things you don't have
00:25:08
agency but what does regret look like to
00:25:10
a young healthy person who has years and
00:25:12
years ahead of them that looks like a
00:25:14
purpose anchor to me find what you
00:25:16
regret turn it around think of that as
00:25:18
an anchor of purpose and then build a
00:25:20
life of purpose around it so regret is a
00:25:23
great way to start thinking about
00:25:24
purpose aners the joys of childhood
00:25:27
often when we're kids kids we have all
00:25:29
these things we love doing we go out
00:25:31
into the world and do these joyful
00:25:33
things all day we lose track of time
00:25:34
we're not worried about the goal we just
00:25:36
like to play and then all of a sudden we
00:25:38
get older and we start talking about
00:25:39
career and we drop all those things so
00:25:42
think about what your childhood room
00:25:44
look like what were the trophies what
00:25:46
were the drawings what were the posters
00:25:49
usually we kind of know what we like as
00:25:51
a kid and eventually drop it but if
00:25:53
you're looking for a sense of purpose in
00:25:55
your adult life think about what you
00:25:56
liked as a kid I loved B cards even
00:25:59
today every time I look on Facebook or I
00:26:01
read an article that has anything to do
00:26:02
with baseball or baseball cards my brain
00:26:04
lights up now I'm so busy with other
00:26:06
versions of Little P purpose I just
00:26:08
don't have time but if I was really
00:26:09
looking to build a life of purpose
00:26:11
around something baseball cards would be
00:26:13
a great purpose anchor for me so regret
00:26:15
is one the joys of childhood another one
00:26:17
I like to look at is work a lot of
00:26:19
people don't enjoy the work but there is
00:26:21
a little piece of work they do like
00:26:23
maybe it lasts for an hour every week
00:26:25
find those things in work you like even
00:26:27
if you don't love your job and start
00:26:29
thinking about those as purpose anchors
00:26:31
I got tired of being a doctor but I
00:26:33
loved hospice work and I was doing it
00:26:34
for about 10 hours a week but that
00:26:36
became a major purpose anchor for me and
00:26:38
last but not least an easy thing to do
00:26:40
is if nothing else Works use the
00:26:42
spaghetti method throw a bunch of things
00:26:44
against the wall see what sticks that
00:26:46
means trying things you don't normally
00:26:47
do hanging out with people you don't
00:26:49
normally hang out with maybe doing
00:26:50
something that makes you feel slightly
00:26:52
uncomfortable and if it's a day well
00:26:54
spent that might be the beginning of a
00:26:56
purpose anchor for you so there's
00:26:58
abundance here a million things and
00:27:01
every time I coach people on purpose and
00:27:03
I go through the pro process of finding
00:27:05
purpose anchors we usually find about 15
00:27:06
or 20 and then I get the exact opposite
00:27:09
question I don't have nearly enough time
00:27:11
to do all this and then I say take a
00:27:12
dart and throw it up against a dartboard
00:27:14
and whatever two or three things you hit
00:27:16
upon decide that those are going to be
00:27:18
your purpose anchors it's not about what
00:27:20
your purpose anchor is it's about the
00:27:21
life of purpose you build and create
00:27:23
around those ideas you're reminding me
00:27:26
of uh a fairly well-known Charlie Munger
00:27:28
quote I might not get the quote exactly
00:27:30
right but one thing he says is the key
00:27:32
to happiness is low expectations that
00:27:35
that's paraphrase is Charlie Munger
00:27:37
quote is that lined up with what you're
00:27:39
thinking here and especially when I
00:27:41
think of some of the big p purpose which
00:27:43
we want to avoid it sounds like some of
00:27:46
that is as a society maybe just as
00:27:49
humans I don't know you know just the
00:27:51
the human brain with us we're Strivers
00:27:53
but especially when you put us inside of
00:27:55
the society that you and I live in it's
00:27:57
a society where yeah there are
00:27:58
expectations laid upon us to do great
00:28:00
things and to change the world and it's
00:28:03
it's just kind of removing some of those
00:28:04
high expectations a net positive for our
00:28:07
lives so here's what I like to say
00:28:09
you're saying high expectations but what
00:28:11
we're really saying is impact in Legacy
00:28:13
so when people say I don't want to give
00:28:15
up big p purpose because that's how I
00:28:17
change the world what they're really
00:28:18
saying is big p purpose is associated
00:28:20
with impacting Legacy and Little P
00:28:21
purpose isn't and that's why I have all
00:28:23
these big audacious goals here's my
00:28:26
answer and the best answer I can give to
00:28:27
you is in the the form of a story so I
00:28:30
like to talk about my maternal
00:28:31
grandfather my maternal grandfather died
00:28:33
in the 1960s 10 years before I was born
00:28:36
my maternal grandfather loved math it
00:28:38
was his little p purpose he didn't want
00:28:40
to solve the world with it he just loved
00:28:42
it so what did he do he became a CPA now
00:28:45
back in the 1950s when my mom was a
00:28:47
little girl she used to sit on his lap
00:28:49
and he would take out his all of his
00:28:51
charts right cuz they didn't have
00:28:52
computers and you know electronic
00:28:54
spreadsheets at that point they had pen
00:28:56
and paper so we'd have all the little
00:28:58
and he showed her the numbers he would
00:28:59
put in each of the little boxes and he
00:29:01
loved it and so she saw him doing this
00:29:04
thing that he loved this little be
00:29:05
purpose that Lit him up and as most kids
00:29:07
do she decided to try on that identity
00:29:10
do I love math would I like to be a CPA
00:29:12
the answer ended up being yes and she
00:29:15
became a CPA too when I was a little kid
00:29:19
I had a learning disability and I
00:29:20
couldn't read while all my classmates
00:29:22
were in their beginning readers I was
00:29:25
coloring with crayon in a coloring book
00:29:27
I would have thought that I was lost
00:29:29
that I just wasn't smart enough but you
00:29:31
see I had taken on my mom's identity I
00:29:33
love math too and in fact my math scores
00:29:35
were among the highest and so I knew
00:29:38
that even though I couldn't read it
00:29:39
wasn't that I was dumb it was that I
00:29:41
needed more help and that gave me the
00:29:42
confidence to eventually get over my
00:29:44
learning disability I went into medicine
00:29:46
a highly mathematical field and one day
00:29:49
when I was a new doctor I was Runing at
00:29:51
the hospital and this guy kept on
00:29:52
getting him M of the hospital on death's
00:29:54
doorstep dehydrated and I noticed the
00:29:56
mathematical connection between two of
00:29:57
his lab results and we diagnosed him
00:29:59
with a very rare disease we put him on
00:30:01
the right medicine and he got better and
00:30:04
he was a pastor at a local church and he
00:30:06
took in homeless kids and fed them and
00:30:09
got them social services and helped them
00:30:10
find jobs so let's think about this one
00:30:13
guy practic practicing his little PE
00:30:15
purpose in the
00:30:17
1950s changed the world such that 60
00:30:21
years later and hundreds and hundreds of
00:30:23
miles away some kid was getting
00:30:26
supported after he ran away from an
00:30:28
abusive home that's Legacy that's impact
00:30:31
like a stone Dropped In The Water my
00:30:34
maternal grandfather displaced just a
00:30:36
little bit of water and that became a
00:30:38
wave and at times that wave came
00:30:41
together with other waves to be big and
00:30:42
mighty and massive and at other times it
00:30:44
dissipated to just a small little wave
00:30:46
but 60 years later it's still coming up
00:30:48
on various Shores throughout the world
00:30:51
and touching people's lives Little P
00:30:54
purpose changes the world and so I think
00:30:58
it's a moot discussion it's not that I
00:31:00
either do big p and have impact or do
00:31:02
little p and don't have impact I think
00:31:04
Little P purpose actually in many ways
00:31:06
changes the world more you're reminding
00:31:08
me of of something I wrote I'm trying to
00:31:10
remember the title Jordan because I I
00:31:11
wasn't anticipating thinking about this
00:31:13
during this interview I'll find it I'll
00:31:15
throw the link in the show notes I might
00:31:16
even make it my monologue before this
00:31:18
conversation so for those listening it
00:31:20
might feel like I'm I'm speaking
00:31:21
backwards in time here but the gist of
00:31:23
this article I think I called it impact
00:31:24
Theory or something like that but the
00:31:26
whole idea is I just noticed it's so
00:31:29
funny how as you interact with the world
00:31:31
you never know what the impact of your
00:31:34
interactions with people might be and
00:31:36
you never know you know 90% of these
00:31:39
interactions especially like mundane
00:31:40
basic interactions that Ripple to use
00:31:43
your metaphor is going to dissipate and
00:31:46
pretty much nothing's going to come of
00:31:47
it but there are other times where that
00:31:49
Ripple is going to be so consequential
00:31:52
for generations to come or you'll you'll
00:31:54
meet someone who gets you your dream
00:31:55
career you'll meet someone who
00:31:57
introduces you to your spouse and now
00:31:59
you're having kids and you can kind of
00:32:01
connect these dots backwards and say if
00:32:02
I had never done X then the world as I
00:32:06
know it would be completely different so
00:32:08
here's the thing they call that another
00:32:10
term for that is the butterfly effect MH
00:32:13
when you do things that deeply light you
00:32:15
up little p purpose that really get you
00:32:18
excited you attract people to you like a
00:32:21
moth to the flame they see you lit up
00:32:23
and they want to interact with you and
00:32:24
you become collaborators if they have
00:32:26
something to teach you they want to
00:32:27
teach you if they have something to
00:32:28
learn from you they want to become your
00:32:29
student they want to become mentor and
00:32:31
mentee so if you want to move the needle
00:32:34
towards that impact dying out versus
00:32:37
growing and affecting the world for
00:32:40
longer and long longer periods of time
00:32:42
deeply engage in things you love and you
00:32:44
will impact people more around you we
00:32:48
all know there's this thing called
00:32:50
generational trauma and the financial
00:32:52
world we talk about money scripts we
00:32:53
talk about our parents end up with money
00:32:56
trauma and they de velop these bad money
00:32:58
scripts like money is bad so I have to
00:33:00
spend it the moment I get it and they
00:33:02
pass that on to their kids and their
00:33:04
kids then believe money is bad they have
00:33:06
to spend it the moment they get it and
00:33:07
they keep passing that on we talk about
00:33:09
generational trauma all the time we
00:33:10
don't talk about generational growth the
00:33:13
exact opposite when you deeply engage in
00:33:15
things that are meaningful to you and it
00:33:17
lights you up we also pass on those
00:33:20
things to our kids and our family and
00:33:22
our friends and they carry those with
00:33:25
them and keep passing them on so again
00:33:27
if if we want to move the needle towards
00:33:29
impactful versus dissipation do things
00:33:32
deeply important to you and the
00:33:33
likelihood is that those waves will
00:33:35
travel much much farther I I want to
00:33:38
Circle back to the idea of Legacy or
00:33:40
maybe not Circle back I suppose it's all
00:33:42
we've been talking about here for the
00:33:43
last few minutes in question and answer
00:33:44
but you know that word legacy sticks out
00:33:47
in my mind and maybe it has a different
00:33:49
definition to different people what I
00:33:51
think about myself it's like to some
00:33:53
extent I I do want people to recognize
00:33:56
that I've led a life well lived
00:33:58
I do want people to say you know what
00:33:59
Jesse added something to my world and
00:34:01
I'm glad about that but I don't think I
00:34:04
care after I die if strangers
00:34:06
essentially out there are saying like
00:34:08
wow I'm still reading or listening to
00:34:10
the words of Jesse Kramer that's just my
00:34:12
personal thoughts on Legacy but what has
00:34:14
your research found when it comes to how
00:34:17
our listeners today can or should or
00:34:19
maybe should not think about or consider
00:34:22
their own legacy we have a finite time
00:34:25
on this Earth and so our ability to
00:34:28
change people connect with people touch
00:34:30
people's lives feels very finite so
00:34:34
here's the thing with generational
00:34:35
growth and the impact in Legacy I'm
00:34:37
talking about I'd like to leave you with
00:34:39
this idea that your goodness what you
00:34:42
create and those things you put in the
00:34:44
world Outlast you they Outlast you far
00:34:47
past the time where anyone is saying
00:34:49
your name or reading about you in the
00:34:51
textbooks my maternal grandfather has
00:34:54
been dead since the 1960s his name is
00:34:56
Morris Adler probably no one said his
00:34:58
name this year and yet his impact lives
00:35:02
on a piece of him and what he loved and
00:35:05
what he thought was important is still
00:35:07
shaping the world today what else could
00:35:10
we ask for it's the closest we get to
00:35:13
immortality it's this idea that we
00:35:16
weren't just a drop in the ocean that
00:35:18
disappears but that we actually do
00:35:21
displace some of that water and that
00:35:22
displacement continues long after we're
00:35:25
gone that to me is Legacy it's that
00:35:28
piece
00:35:29
ofie of us that's and purpose for us
00:35:34
stays in the universe and still has
00:35:36
effect and I think that's magical I've
00:35:39
got a follow on question but it's a hard
00:35:41
question and I I don't know if there's
00:35:43
an answer to it maybe maybe you do
00:35:44
Jordan and the question is if your
00:35:46
maternal grandfather Morris Adler how
00:35:49
aware he was of this when he was living
00:35:52
now obviously he couldn't be aware of
00:35:53
what 50 years in the future could be but
00:35:56
you know maybe somewhere in the back of
00:35:57
him mind he knew that he was sharing his
00:36:00
enthusiasm and his love of numbers with
00:36:02
your mother his daughter and maybe he
00:36:04
knew that you know what that's got to
00:36:06
have a positive effect in some way and I
00:36:07
guess the the real question and I think
00:36:09
about the actionable thoughts as we can
00:36:10
take away from this conversation is is
00:36:12
there anything that we can do in our
00:36:14
lives to just be more aware of the fact
00:36:17
that we are doing positive things we are
00:36:19
having positive impacts we are striving
00:36:22
to be a positive role model for someone
00:36:24
and you know what it's certainly not
00:36:26
going to have a negative long-term
00:36:27
effect and it all it can do is have posi
00:36:29
positive ripples into the future here's
00:36:32
the great thing it's a happy side effect
00:36:34
don't even go for legacy don't go for
00:36:37
impact just do things that light you up
00:36:41
follow your little PE purpose look at
00:36:44
the calendar of your life all the days
00:36:46
weeks months and years and start taking
00:36:49
an accounting of how much of that time
00:36:51
is filled up with things you love and
00:36:53
how much of that time is filled with
00:36:55
things you loathe and every month I want
00:36:57
you to look at that calendar and work on
00:37:00
creating more things you love and get
00:37:02
getting rid of more things you loathe
00:37:05
practice more Little P purpose because
00:37:07
we have no control over time we can't
00:37:08
buy it we can't sell it we can't
00:37:10
exchange it it passes no matter what we
00:37:12
do the only thing you can do is take an
00:37:15
accounting of what activities that fill
00:37:17
that time that you're involved in don't
00:37:20
worry about impact don't worry about
00:37:21
Legacy do things that let you up and I
00:37:24
promise all of that will happen anyway
00:37:27
it did with my maternal grandfather it
00:37:28
was never his plan it can happen for you
00:37:31
too well Jordan I think the listeners
00:37:33
are going to be able to just feel the
00:37:35
little PE purpose in your life coming
00:37:37
through the headphones their headphones
00:37:39
today and uh if not they're going to be
00:37:40
able to see it for themselves when the
00:37:42
purpose code hits bookshelves and now
00:37:44
once listeners are hearing this where
00:37:47
can they go get a copy of the purpose
00:37:48
code and and what are some of the things
00:37:49
that they can really look forward to
00:37:50
taking away so basically you can go to
00:37:52
Jordan grommet.com j o r
00:37:56
dgme.com there you can get links to both
00:37:58
my books taking stock in the purpose
00:38:00
code as well as where I create content
00:38:02
on the web the most common place the Ern
00:38:05
invest podcast but there's the purpose
00:38:06
code substack as well as links to my old
00:38:10
financial and medical blogs and what you
00:38:13
should expect from this book is an
00:38:15
actual version of purpose that you can
00:38:18
touch and feel and use and manipulate
00:38:22
we're not talking about Pie in the Sky
00:38:23
Theory when you're done with the purpose
00:38:25
code you should have a distinct plan for
00:38:27
how you can build more purpose into your
00:38:29
life it is straightforward it is
00:38:32
abundant and it is something we can all
00:38:33
strive for that sounds simply amazing
00:38:36
doc G Jordan grummet thank you so much
00:38:38
for joining us here on the best interest
00:38:40
podcast thank you for having me on the
00:38:43
show thanks for tuning in to this
00:38:45
episode of the best interest podcast if
00:38:47
you have a question for Jesse to answer
00:38:49
on a future episode send him an email at
00:38:52
Jesse bestter interest. blog again
00:38:55
that's Jesse bestest . blog did you
00:38:58
enjoy the show subscribe rate and review
00:39:01
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00:39:03
helps others find the show and invest in
00:39:06
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00:39:08
appreciate it we'll catch you on the
00:39:09
next episode of the best interest
00:39:14
podcast the best interest podcast is a
00:39:17
personal podcast met for education and
00:39:19
entertainment it should not be taken as
00:39:21
Financial advice and is not prescriptive
00:39:24
of your financial situation