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I'm Adam grant I'm here with Amy Chua
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the yale law professor who wrote the
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Battle Hymn of the tiger mother now
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she's the co-author of the triple
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package with her husband Jed Rubenfeld
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Amy welcome thanks so much for having me
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Adam tell us about the triple package
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what's it about well the triple package
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refers to three qualities that basically
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propel individuals and groups to high
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achievement and disproportionate success
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the first element is what we call a
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superiority complex that is a kind of
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sense of your specialness or
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exceptionality the second is kind of the
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opposite of that that's a sense of
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insecurity a feeling that you were what
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you've done is not good enough and the
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third is impulse control by which we
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mean self-discipline self-control the
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ability to resist temptation and it's
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really the combination of the first two
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elements that I think is so unusual and
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an interesting you know I mean how does
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somebody simultaneously feel superior
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and insecure and yet that's really the
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key that's what generates drive this
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feeling like I'm not respected enough
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you know I need to show everybody I need
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to work harder than everybody else so I
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can get this recognition that I deserve
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so I was actually wondering that when I
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read the book how do you hold these two
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beliefs simultaneously where does the
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sense of superiority and inferiority
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come from and how do they how do they
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hang together
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well actually if you interview or just
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read the bios of very successful people
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it's amazing how often it just comes up
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over and over from henry's Kissinger to
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Alexander Hamilton I mean their BIOS are
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they you know have this enormous sense
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of that they could change the world that
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they were brilliant or confident you
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know great things that can be instilled
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by a parent you know actually that's
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what Sonia Sotomayor on the Supreme
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Court said is she said it was her
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grandmother that gave her this sense
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that she was destined for great things
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but if you just have the sense of
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superiority then you could be complacent
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you're much more likely to be hey yeah
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I'm great so it's only when that sense
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of superiority is combined with the
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sense of hey I'm not being respected
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enough you know I don't quite fit in and
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that sense of insecurity can in the case
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of groups come from being an immigrant
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you know if you're an immigrant
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that's almost class
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being insecure here that you're the
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quintessential outsider people are
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making fun of my accent I'm insecure
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about whether I can make it in this
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country I'm insecure about whether I can
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be accepted so that combination of maybe
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very feeling very proud about it could
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be your group it could be you know
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you're just proud about yourself you
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have a strong sense of self but when you
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combine that with a little edge like I
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just a dash of insecurity then that's
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when you kind of get this goading the
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catalyst that makes people you know
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motivates people and you use that lens
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to explain the rise of some cultural
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groups how did you end up connecting
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these qualities to culture well we
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actually work the other way we started
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looking at the most successful groups in
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America again by just very conventional
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metrics income professional and
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educational attainment without saying
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that that's the best way to live your
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life but whose doing really really well
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and kind of using straight census data
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and we isolated you know big methodology
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but we isolated eight groups that seem
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to be really hitting it out of the park
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right now and they include two non
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immigrant groups Jews and Mormons but
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then Indian Iranian of Lebanese
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Americans Chinese Americans and then
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Nigerian and Cuban Americans so then we
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were studying them like you know we
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thought we were gonna write about maybe
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different cultural pathways and instead
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once we put together this research team
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it took us like three years we found
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something surprising basically a really
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remarkable pattern which is that all
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these groups actually share these three
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qualities a deep sense of their own
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exceptionality whether it's a chosen
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people narrative or you know Mormons
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have a very powerful sense of both
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religious and moral superiority or you
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know my own group Chinese Americans my
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mother always said we come from the
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greatest oldest most ancient
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civilization we invented everything you
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know and there are other sources too and
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in many of those cases the insecurity
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comes from being an outsider whether it
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from up being a persecuted minority or
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you know again being an immigrant how
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much does it matter if the sense of
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superiority is at the group level or the
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individual level so do I have to be part
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of some larger narrative or can it just
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be I think I have the potential to be
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really great
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it's absolutely at the individual level
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and I think that's the biggest
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misunderstanding about the book because
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people are focused on these
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oops but at the end of the day any
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individual of any background you know
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it's can have the triple package and
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again if you look at Barack Obama you
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know almost by his own language he
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almost describes this insecurity and
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chip-on-the-shoulder that pushed him and
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his mother who actually made have given
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at 5:00 in the morning a lot of
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self-discipline actually but that's
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what's so interesting about the book is
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I actually think the most exciting
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applications are for America's poorest
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groups because the triple package it's
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very very fluid one of the things we
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found is that groups rise and they fall
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very predictably you know so after
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immigrants usually after the second
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generation you see a very sharp fall-off
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with the Jews being the only exception
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and I think the triple package explains
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that that persisting insecurity from a
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long history of persecution and then the
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Holocaust but what we are hearing from
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educators around the world including two
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of the country's largest inner city
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charter networks is I can't believe it
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these three triple package qualities are
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exactly what we are trying to instill in
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our underprivileged kids you know we're
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trying to do much more impulse control
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self-discipline sit down be able to do
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this Saturday hours in security the
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sense of higher expectations you're
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amazing but you can do better you
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haven't done you're better than you
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think you are and I think the most
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interesting thing is where does that
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sense of exceptionality come from it's
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it's the best kind it is a sense of
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exceptionality that these schools are
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trying to instill that it's not based on
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belonging to a certain group or a
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certain religion but rather a sense of
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pride that any individual can take from
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hard work and persevering and kind of
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beating the odds and you know overcoming
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life's challenges and and that's
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actually you know what you see a lot of
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these schools trying to do and they're
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having great success with a you know
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incredible graduation rates so I think
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the impulse control part is probably the
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least controversial piece of the triple
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package right I think the the
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superiority and insecurity piece is the
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the trickier part of the equation and
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I'm reminded of some research on
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self-esteem that psychologists have been
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doing over the last few decades and
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Android by my sirnas colleagues had this
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great review where they asked
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essentially is high self esteem
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associated with
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anything good not really maybe a little
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bit with happiness but it doesn't buy
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you a lot for success interpersonal
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relationships or much else and I guess I
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worry a little bit about you know if we
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combine superiority and insecurity do we
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get people who not only have high
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self-esteem but unstable or fragile
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self-esteem where they're constantly
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protecting themselves in shielding
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themselves from the slings and arrows of
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life as opposed to just developing a
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realistic sense of obligation or duty to
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try to do something meaningful with
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their lives well yeah actually this this
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captures one of the I think the most
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important parts of the triple package we
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have a whole chapter exploring the
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underside so I think the book isn't just
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the celebration of success in the triple
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package because we deliberately chose
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these terms you know we could have
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called it you just need confidence and
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grit and big dreams but we chose a
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superiority complex that's a kind of a
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negative concept shades into intolerance
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insecurities you know that's that's
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clearly a negative term but I think a
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couple of important points first all the
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studies show now that actually the
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students who have the lowest self-esteem
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you know reported self-esteem in these
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big high schools you know how do you
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feel about yourself do you are Asian
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Americans they have the lowest reported
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self-esteem but they have the highest
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achievement in terms of at least grades
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and test scores and I think what that
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shows is that if you feel that you're
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just perfect you're amazing there's
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nothing more you need to prove you're
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not gonna work hard right you you you
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need that little edge but the dark side
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is so important right like that feeling
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like I'm not good enough yet
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I have to prove myself whether to
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society or to my parents can be
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incredibly unpleasant and we have all
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these interviews and quotes in the book
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from you know Amy Tan the famous
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novelist said I I mean she's incredibly
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successful but she said I was miserable
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all my childhood I felt I could never
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ever please my parents said there were
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times I wanted to die and she had to
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break free from the triple package that
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as her parents want to do the typical
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academic things and she had to break
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free of them only the director said the
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same thing his dad kept wanting him to
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be a professor you know he wasn't even
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happy when he won the Academy Award so I
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think there are downsides because this
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kind of need to prove yourself to
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society or to your family or the Kim
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tends to channel people into kind of
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conventional forms of success now that's
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not necessarily bad if it makes you
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happy but if it's not what you want to
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do with your life it can be very
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imprisoning I think that's a totally
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fair point I guess is the last word on
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this
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you've mentioned parenting a few times I
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can't ask or I have to ask I should say
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you know what about what is the role of
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Tiger mothers and maybe also a Lombardi
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dads in the triple package well it's
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definitely the triple package is
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definitely not a parenting book but
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there are some overlaps I mean in some
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ways both books are about how do you
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motivate your children how do you
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inspire your children and you know it
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battled him with the tiger mother that
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was supposed to be a self-parody memoir
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so it's be funny
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just kind of my own story but I ran up
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against this you know individual
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personalities a second daughter who just
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didn't want to do what I wanted her to
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do and the lesson the book in some ways
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is you have to find how to harness her
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strengths and her confidence but allow
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her to apply it in a way that fits her
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personality and fits her dreams and it's
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still a work in progress actually I mean
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we're really good friends but you know
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it's never easy
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it's never easy and I think that's the
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thing about the triple package I think
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it's ultimately an attempt to present
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it's a book that tries to be honest
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about what it takes to be successful
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even in a conventional way you know what
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it takes to have drives because if you
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think about it to be driven something
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has to be missing something has to be
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pushing you I think you know I mean if
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you just feel completely perfectly fine
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everything is you don't need anything
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more I think we'd all love to feel that
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way but your why would you then wake up
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at 6:00 in the morning why would you
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work till 7 why do you write another
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book I think something has to be pushing
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you and we're trying to figure out that
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balance and how can we combine that in a
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way that you know allows this person to
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thrive and be happy and be healthy and
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have meaning in their lives but also you
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know also of you know basically achieve
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your goals I mean if you were to ask me
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what is the definition of success it's
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very simple it's to achieve your goals
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whatever those goals may be you know
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whether it's writing a novel or making a
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film or or becoming a doctor and I do
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think that proper
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titrated and kind of combined with
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friendship and and generosity would you
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write about the triple package actually
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can help people achieve their goals well
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I hope you're right about that thank you
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for joining us today thanks for having
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me
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you
