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We would love to hear for starters you
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to talk a little bit about the success
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you're most proud of as a leader.
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I would say, you know, taking a roster
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when I inherited the team in 2002 and
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and turning the entire roster over and
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getting back to the playoffs in 2005,
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not the logistical accomplishment of
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turning over 25 players, but of having
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to lead a bunch of a group of an
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organization, uh, having to communicate
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that externally to a public uh, with a
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lot of skepticism and doubt out there.
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uh but finding an internal group of
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people who bought into a vision, who
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aligned behind it, uh who were bound
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together by a strong set of beliefs and
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values um of what we could accomplish
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and not being overcome by some of the
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objective challenges along the way. And
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so seeing that manifest itself into a
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central division championship, knocking
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the Yankees out of the playoffs, I'm not
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sure anything could feel t you have a
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tang a better tangible more tangible
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feeling of that that satisfaction, that
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fulfillment.
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Mark, let me ask about the many
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decisions you've made over the years,
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hundreds of decisions on players and all
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kinds of other related issues. Looking
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back on your 20 plus years now at the
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Indians, what's been one of your tougher
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decisions? And looking back on that,
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what would you have done differently
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with the benefit of hindsight on that?
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So I have my leadership moment, you
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know, to reference you that I thought
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back and I had read your book and um I I
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inherited the team at a at a juncture
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that I knew was difficult uh because I
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knew the roster was aging. I knew we had
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some market correction, but the the
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magnitude of difficulty was far greater
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than any of us internally knew
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strategically. Um and I was staring in a
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decision in the face to trade our best
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player, a guy named Bartolo Cologne, a
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well-known pitcher, um for three minor
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leaguers. So externally, three people
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that would be completely unknown. Um, as
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a leader, I knew I'd be disappointing
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pretty much every contingency out there.
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You know, our fans, our market, uh,
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people in the office that work that
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weren't tied to the baseball decision-m,
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the field staff, you know, that led our
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team on the field and our players. Every
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constituency I had would be disappointed
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and they wouldn't understand the
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decision. Yet, it was clearly
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intellectually and strategically the
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right decision. Um, and it was in my
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mind, and this is what I communicated to
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ownership who ultimately approved the
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decision. It was the only opportunity we
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had to chart a course, a true plan or
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strategy back to contention from where
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we were. Um, so we basically the
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decision was let it naturally play out
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and make it understood by everyone what
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we had to do or preempt that decline
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with a very difficult to understand
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tough decision. And I'm curious actually
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just to follow up on that. So I think
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one of the unique things about that
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approach is being willing to make a
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short-term sacrifice for a long-term
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gain. We would love to hear a little bit
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more about your unique approach to
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leadership. Is there a situation that
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stands out similar to that where you led
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in a way that perhaps might
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differentiate you from other leaders?
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Um, I'm not sure the one situation
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stands out and I I never give much
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thought to trying to differentiate
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myself. I think what I would try to do
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is uh and the old and the older I get
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and the more examples I have, the more I
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grasp towards that idea that the only
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way to sustain leadership is is to to be
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authentic. And the only way to be
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authentic is to have your leadership
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align with your values. Otherwise, you
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keep trying to determine how I should
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act in certain situations and there's no
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way to replicate that from situation to
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situation. So, I think if anything, um,
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what may differentiate me or may make me
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similar to other effective leaders that
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can sustain it is that there's got to be
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some code. There's got to be some you've
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you've got to gone through the effort
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and it's not always an easy effort.
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sometimes a painful effort to be aware
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of the things that are important to you
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and you've got to articulate those
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things to the people around you. And
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ultimately what people buy into when
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they follow you uh when they join you is
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they they buy into those values. They
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buy into that that sense of vision of
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where that that articulation of your
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vision of where you're going. They don't
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in baseball they don't buy into the
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uniform. They're not buying into the
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hat, you know, they're buying into the
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people behind that.
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Mark, going back to your college days,
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my guess is you had not openly or
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explicitly planned to become the
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president of a major league baseball
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team, but but here you are. And thinking
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about the time since your college days
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to now, was there a turning point, an
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experience, was there a mentor that
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really had a impact or all three of
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those that had a major impact on who you
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are now? Yeah, I two mentors that had an
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impact.
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um no one defining moment but I think I
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can I can maybe a defining uh path. So
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the mentors were clearly my father um
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from a standpoint of those values. You
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know just watching the way he interacted
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with people never qualifying people. You
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know my dad in a small town of
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Baltimore, Maryland would walk down the
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street and in almost mayoral sense knew
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everyone. uh the way he talked to the
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you know the guy who parked the car was
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the identical way he did talk to the
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mayor and there was never a
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qualification and every human being was
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equally as important to him um that
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sense of you know importance compassion
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you know was always a core part of who I
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am um that sense of that values are
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intertwined and I think this is kind of
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going back to the authenticity you can't
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be one person as a father friend husband
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and a different person as a leader you
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don't walk through the building and
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become president of a company. You know,
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it's not a cape you put on. You walk
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through the building and you're the same
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guy you were and how you treated your
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wife, your kids, your brother. Imperfect
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certainly, but you have to be the same
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person. So, my dad, I think, did that
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for me. John Hart, um, you know, was the
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general manager when I came on as an
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entry level no titled cubicle dweller.
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Um, he saw something in me along with
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Dan Odow, who was the assistant GM at
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that time, that empowered me. um that
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when I look back and think what they
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were how much they empowered me as a
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24year-old kid uh with relatively little
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experience um I'm amazed it didn't you
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know it was not amazing to me then um
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but it wasn't just giving me opportunity
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to lead it wasn't just giving me an area
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to be accountable and responsible for it
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was them telling me you know hey you're
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you're good you know you're a guy you
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know believe in what you're you what
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you're saying your ideas are good ideas
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now go execute them. So, how about a
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turning point experience, a a moment, a
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decision, a inflection point?
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I don't I don't know if I have one
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experience that that uh I can think of.
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I mean, I I
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think what led to me ultimately maybe
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having more opportunities in addition to
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gaining them their belief was being
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immersed in competitive environments
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like, you know, like this one, like
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Wharton, like Princeton, like the high
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school I went to, being around people
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that uh subconsciously had high
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standards uh for themselves that pulled
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me up to their level. So, I'm not sure
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that I was destined to do anything. I'm
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not sure that I know I'm not the
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smartest guy in the room now and never
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have been, but I know I'm a competitive
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guy. I know that for sure. And I know if
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you drop me into a room of a lot of
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really smart people that I'm going to
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try to figure out a way to rise to their
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level and at least hang with them. And
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if you do that enough, what you find is
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you keep asking that of yourself, you
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demand that level of excellence from
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yourself. And so I think not being one
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situation or one moment, it's it was the
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convergence of that opportunity and
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those people that believed in me with
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that approach that you know I demand a
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lot of myself. So that you know my
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thought coming in at 23 years old, 24
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years old was you know this was a very
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simple way to approach it. Every single
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thing they give me to do I'm going to do
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better and faster than they expect. That
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was I mean that's as simple as it was.
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It's all I ever said. You know I'm going
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to do it better and faster. started
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there and what happens is the
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opportunity is just kind of built off
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that. Great. So I'm I'm curious then if
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you think about those two decades that
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you spent with the Indians, how has your
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view of effective leadership changed
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over time?
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That's a great question. Um I I think
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the maturity side of things like I said
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not to be redundant as more shifted more
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towards the authenticity side that I may
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have as I came in been more drawn to and
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thought more about the inspirational
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leader. So thought about the great
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speech, thought about the singular
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moment um and I and I the great idea um
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and not the discipline, not the
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consistency, not the you know uh
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continual effort, not the clarity of
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values, the things that lead to
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sustaining it. So I think as as I have
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matured uh the areas that interest me
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are that and then probably uh how do you
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lead because this is very situational
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specific for me. How do you lead when
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you the objective intellectual side of
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you understand so clearly the magnitude
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of your challenges are so great but you
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still have to take you still have to
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lead people to overcome those
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challenges. So I've got to kind of split
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you know understanding how the cards are
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stacked against us in our current
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situation. Um and you've got to design
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your strategy based around that. So you
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better have a strong intellectual and
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objective understanding of that. But at
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the same time, you do still have to lead
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an a very diverse group of people to
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overcome those challenges. And so you
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have to be positive. You have to be
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strong. And how do you do that? That
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that's probably the one that at this
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moment in time um as in my progression,
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that's the one that I wrestle with the
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most now and and you know try to try to
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come up with strategies to personally
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deal with. Mark, when people come into
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positions of responsibility like your
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own, you almost always arrive with a
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number of preconceptions of what it's
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going to take to lead well. What turns
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out to be a preconception that didn't
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pan out, didn't turn out to be true.
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Probably that you need to be strong,
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that you need to uh and by strong I mean
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almost intimidating.
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um that you need that that fear is even
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plays any role in leadership that uh
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that effort spent trying to act like a
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leader or you know becomes unauthentic
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and becomes artificial. It becomes
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something that people see through pretty
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quickly. Um so I think you know my
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earlier visions of leadership um
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perceptions of leadership might have
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been more built on some youthful
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understanding that it's hierarchial um
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that you know it's superior that there's
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some elevated stance and you know the
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further I go the more I understand that
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you know the humility is that is just
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such a important part and so I don't
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think I ever really understood um that
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that I do I think I heard a a a another
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leader talking recently about the scale
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of humility and confidence and I I am
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fascinated by you know being on that
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spectrum of humility and confidence
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because do I do think to effectively
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lead you can't be all the way to the
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humility side because then you really
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don't earn anyone's respect but you
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can't be too far on that confident side
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because then you lose all the respect so
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there is somewhere in that spectrum
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where I just think it has to be genuine
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self-confidence it can't be fabricated
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or artificial thanks yeah it's really
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interesting It reminds me of of a very
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old idea from Aristotle that you always
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wanted to be in in the mean or the
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midpoint between humility and arrogance.
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Okay. Well, that's maybe where that that
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person was speaking from. But yeah, I
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kind of just looked at it like there's
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that spectrum. And a lot of times when
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I'm sizing up, you know, potential
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leaders in the organization in my own
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mind, you know, I find myself he
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articulated or Aristotle articulated
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that's what I'm thinking about. I'm
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thinking about those things. So, how do
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you strike a a balance? I think that,
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you know, when when people are arriving
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in major leadership positions for the
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first time, you know, they often end up
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sort of falling off the spectrum at one
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end or the other and you're talking
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about sort of being in this this
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critical middle middle range. How do you
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get there? Well, humility is very easy
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to come by in my field.
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All you have to do is pick up a
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newspaper or turn on the radio and you
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can be humbled very quickly. Um, so I
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would just say aware, you know, that
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self-awareness is the key to having that
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balance. Um it's something that uh I
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think about all the time that we talk
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about internally that I think effective
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leaders have to be before anything else.
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If you look at you know kind of building
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um the foundation of what it takes to be
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an effective leader that starts with
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that self-awareness. You've got to be
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aware of your strengths but you've got
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to be keenly aware of your limitations
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and you've got to be aware of your
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insecurities. Every single one of us has
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insecurities. Every person has them.
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People that manage their insecurities
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prevent them from derailing them. To me,
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almost every single time I see someone
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derailed in an effort to lead,
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insecurities are at the root of that of
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being derailed. And so, again, we all
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have them, every single one of us, but
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they're easily managed if you take the
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time to be aware of them and then you
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talk yourself through them and ensure
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they don't derail your efforts. Mark,
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I've got a final question for you here.
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as you bring people into the ball club
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and mentor them, coach them, develop
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their leadership, what's the maybe the
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most important line of advice you would
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have for them? And to broaden it out a
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bit, speaking to undergraduate students
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back at your alma mater talking with MBA
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students here, what general advice would
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you have for people who do want to take
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responsibility for not necessarily a
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ball club, but working for an
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organization? So, what what's your
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advice? Well, the first thing I would
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say is to to do the work to take the
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time to get to know themselves. Um to
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you can call it whatever you want. You
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know, you can call it, you know, to
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understand what values are important to
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you. To me, it's defining the things
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that, you know, going back and searching
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for when they're in the cultures, when
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they're in the environments that they're
00:13:56
happiest and most fulfilled. Why is
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that? And when there's a dissonance,
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when they're not happy, when they're
00:14:01
finding that something's not correct,
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you know, what are the things that are
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not present? Because I think if they
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really do the work and it's not easy
00:14:08
work, but if they take the time to to
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establish, understand and identify and
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and have a clarity to their value system
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that they'll be surprised how many more
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things are out there that are
00:14:19
opportunities to lead that allows them
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to align themsel with the right leader
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and the right culture. And I think that
00:14:25
path to development is going to come
00:14:28
from being aligned with the right leader
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and in the right culture. The right
00:14:31
culture and the right leaders are going
00:14:32
to be obsessed with development. We
00:14:34
obsess about developing our people. If
00:14:36
you're in the wrong culture and and
00:14:38
you're not aligned, then ultimately
00:14:40
you're going to be exe, you know, you're
00:14:41
going to be asked to execute a task or a
00:14:43
role and there's not going to be much
00:14:45
concern about your development. And I
00:14:46
think, you know, to me personally, I
00:14:49
think that's what I'd say is do the work
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to to really identify the things that
00:14:52
are important to you. You'll be amazed.
00:14:53
Open your mind up to the number of
00:14:55
people you could be you could learn from
00:14:56
and work with that you're aligned with.
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And uh it all starts there. That's
00:15:00
great. Mark, we thank you for joining
00:15:01
Knowledge of Wharton today. Thank you
00:15:03
very much. Thank you guys. Thanks. Thank
00:15:04
you.
00:15:07
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