00:00:17
any thoughts about the weaknesses
00:00:20
yes a lot of them i'm sure impatience in
00:00:23
my dna
00:00:24
sometimes people feel i'm running much
00:00:26
faster than them and
00:00:28
don't give them enough time to
00:00:30
unrealistic
00:00:31
time standards sometimes of expect
00:00:33
expectations
00:00:35
um i tend to have some of our best
00:00:37
performing people in the unit around me
00:00:40
both for coaching them and having them
00:00:43
so when you have
00:00:44
someone who's not really performing as
00:00:46
well i think he
00:00:47
he he finds it difficult working with me
00:00:49
right now that could be a signal for him
00:00:51
to improve or that could be a signal
00:00:53
to leave but i have done that i think
00:00:57
one of the things i have sometimes over
00:00:58
here seen
00:01:00
when we have to remove someone from the
00:01:02
leadership position
00:01:03
we sometimes take too much time on it we
00:01:06
sometimes dwell on it
00:01:07
think about it you know while he's this
00:01:09
and while he's that i think that
00:01:12
now i look back sometimes should have
00:01:14
been done much faster
00:01:16
is that is that something that now it's
00:01:18
come probably over years but
00:01:20
i mean i'm clinical now when i have to
00:01:22
get someone to leave
00:01:23
right right and but initially
00:01:27
it takes time you know you you think
00:01:29
about it too much and you
00:01:30
just waste that much more time well it
00:01:32
is of course a very difficult decision
00:01:34
always and and it is a natural tendency
00:01:39
to not want to
00:01:40
deliver the very bad news it's but as
00:01:43
you say sometimes it's better to get it
00:01:45
done with and move on
00:01:46
i think that's something which was a
00:01:48
weakness so one of the things just by
00:01:50
way of summary before i
00:01:51
move on to another another domain
00:01:56
it seems to me one of the greatest
00:01:58
strengths you're talking about
00:02:00
is on the one hand a concern for people
00:02:03
particularly developing your people but
00:02:06
also a strong concern for
00:02:08
results and it's not one or the other
00:02:10
but both would that be a fair summary
00:02:12
absolutely i tend to keep both in mind
00:02:15
when you are doing anything
00:02:17
indeed you had mentioned in passing
00:02:20
gerja
00:02:22
in an earlier answer role models
00:02:25
and i wondered if there is any one
00:02:28
person or more than one person either in
00:02:30
real life
00:02:31
or in the world of literature who has
00:02:33
actually been a role model for you
00:02:36
would you say who is the person or
00:02:39
persons and how that has influenced you
00:02:41
in your journey as a leader
00:02:45
yes i've had role models i suppose all
00:02:47
of us look to role models to benchmark
00:02:49
ourselves and see what we think are the
00:02:51
best
00:02:52
and in different aspects that different
00:02:54
role models really
00:02:57
i look at my father who was a very
00:02:59
successful civil servant
00:03:02
integrity and openness came from him
00:03:05
a strong believer in that um
00:03:09
when i look at some of my bosses in the
00:03:11
bank and they're in tcs
00:03:14
i i used to wonder why they became
00:03:17
bosses
00:03:18
that's where the question is to start
00:03:20
and what do they have that made them
00:03:22
bosses
00:03:23
and listening capability very
00:03:26
interesting
00:03:27
something i always saw in all my role
00:03:30
models over bosses
00:03:33
amazing the successful ones would say
00:03:36
less
00:03:37
and hear more um
00:03:40
i tried doing it many times but i think
00:03:42
sometimes i'm impatient
00:03:45
i think that has been certainly both two
00:03:47
or three of my bosses in the bank and
00:03:49
tcs have been very very good listeners
00:03:51
they're very successful people they
00:03:52
built big businesses
00:03:54
in and out of the organizations and
00:03:56
listening skills
00:03:57
and motivating skills of their people
00:04:00
getting the best out of them was really
00:04:01
where the role model was
00:04:03
well that's that's a very very fantastic
00:04:05
insight
00:04:08
sometimes i myself have been the
00:04:10
beneficiary of this sometimes
00:04:13
when we are getting along with our lives
00:04:16
getting along with our careers from time
00:04:19
to time some of us are fortunate enough
00:04:21
to find someone
00:04:23
who actually takes on the role of a
00:04:26
mentor it's really a two-way choice
00:04:29
in a sense you seek to be mentored and
00:04:32
he or she seeks to mentor
00:04:36
did you ever have any mentors and and
00:04:39
again
00:04:39
what was the role this mentor or mentors
00:04:43
played in your career
00:04:46
i think i was lucky in having bosses
00:04:50
some bosses who were very keen to
00:04:52
develop me
00:04:54
i think they saw in me a potential
00:04:57
and they naturally became the mentors in
00:05:00
the organization
00:05:02
and i have my had my share of mentors
00:05:06
i have had respect for them i think in
00:05:09
mentor it's a two-way street of you know
00:05:11
developing mutual respect for each other
00:05:13
understanding the
00:05:15
the the the council as it is given
00:05:18
whether it is uh good or bad you know
00:05:21
the trust that the mentor develops with
00:05:23
you so i've had mentors
00:05:25
and i think they have developed my
00:05:27
leadership styles
00:05:28
very substantially i don't think
00:05:31
no one ever comes with a leadership
00:05:33
style that evolves
00:05:34
and mentoring helps the leadership
00:05:38
style to develop especially managing
00:05:40
people so you see
00:05:41
really multiple mentors over time few
00:05:45
mentors
00:05:45
over time and they have helped develop
00:05:49
the leadership style
00:05:50
is it that no one particular person
00:05:52
stands out above the others or
00:05:55
i know there are two or three of them
00:05:57
who have been my mentors in different
00:05:59
phases of life and i have learned a lot
00:06:03
from them all right as you went through
00:06:06
your leadership journey
00:06:08
as i said you know we are talking today
00:06:11
at a
00:06:12
phase in your career where you've
00:06:14
already achieved a great deal and you're
00:06:17
uh you still have many good years ahead
00:06:20
of you
00:06:22
do you ever remember making conscious
00:06:25
decisions based upon your experiences
00:06:28
based upon role models of mentors
00:06:32
to consciously change your leadership
00:06:33
style uh
00:06:35
if if you did would you talk about that
00:06:37
a little bit
00:06:40
i think some of the changes come with
00:06:42
age as well
00:06:43
and the role that you play i think when
00:06:46
i was
00:06:48
running an organization at a middle
00:06:51
management level
00:06:53
there was a different leadership style
00:06:56
just short term
00:06:58
as i became heads of units
00:07:02
because i became heads of a whole
00:07:03
business which i had to create like when
00:07:05
i created the mutual fund
00:07:07
in india as a executive chairman
00:07:11
uh clearly the leadership style you know
00:07:13
you're starting with
00:07:14
zero is just white
00:07:17
it's challenging where do you start
00:07:19
you're going to convince your people who
00:07:20
are going to join you that this will be
00:07:21
a great business
00:07:22
but also very exciting as you're and
00:07:24
also excited so you you got to actually
00:07:26
get them to see your vision
00:07:30
why are you so excited and if they're
00:07:31
not excited that business won't take off
00:07:34
so i think the leadership style changes
00:07:36
when you are doing
00:07:37
at different levels roles of different
00:07:40
levels
00:07:41
and the the most challenging aspect of
00:07:43
it is when especially when you're doing
00:07:45
a ground up
00:07:47
new business that is the crux of any
00:07:50
leader can he build a new business from
00:07:52
scratch
00:07:54
i have done about four or five like that
00:07:56
that's
00:07:57
something which i always think has been
00:07:59
the high point when i look at not
00:08:02
what my titles were but where we built
00:08:05
from scratch
00:08:05
businesses and that perhaps is where
00:08:07
your
00:08:09
the inner entrepreneur comes out and
00:08:12
plays a role
00:08:13
let's switch gears a little bit garja i
00:08:15
had mentioned to you right in the
00:08:16
beginning
00:08:18
that the study which this interview will
00:08:21
be a part of
00:08:23
is of indian and chinese business
00:08:26
leadership
00:08:29
obviously this is something that has
00:08:30
influenced you as well but if you
00:08:32
focus on
00:08:36
indian business leadership or chinese
00:08:38
business leadership
00:08:40
and i'd want you to talk about both what
00:08:42
are some of the most
00:08:44
unique or even most distinctive
00:08:47
aspects of this indian
00:08:50
or chinese business leadership style
00:08:54
and what have been some of the main
00:08:56
sources of influence for
00:08:57
each country i'm sure you have a
00:09:01
vast amount of rich in experience in
00:09:04
both countries
00:09:05
but just start laying it out for each
00:09:07
country
00:09:10
yeah let me just take one of the common
00:09:13
aspects to both
00:09:14
you know i see that in china as well you
00:09:17
know we built a business from scratch
00:09:18
there
00:09:20
and of course india where i work
00:09:21
sometimes
00:09:25
both countries over the last 15 to 20
00:09:28
years
00:09:31
have taken growth for granted
00:09:36
a given in the mindset of leadership
00:09:39
double digit triple digit that doesn't
00:09:41
matter in particular areas
00:09:43
so both are highly aggressive
00:09:47
in terms of growth parameters
00:09:51
in when i look at our budget numbers a
00:09:54
15
00:09:54
growth in our jargon is called flat line
00:09:58
interesting anyone who says that we said
00:10:00
this is a flat growth and a lot of
00:10:02
chinese say the same thing
00:10:05
you don't hear that in the west
00:10:07
naturally because there's a slow growing
00:10:08
economy
00:10:09
so both countries and the manager
00:10:11
leadership i have to struggle with
00:10:13
growth
00:10:14
high growth and these high growths then
00:10:16
require you to do many things
00:10:18
for it to happen orderly orderly growth
00:10:20
you do not want a disorderly growth
00:10:22
so one is that both are struggling with
00:10:25
growth
00:10:26
second both are also globalizing
00:10:29
i'm not talking about those companies
00:10:30
which are globalizing not everyone is
00:10:32
globalizing but the big companies and
00:10:33
both countries are globalizing because
00:10:35
they are seeing
00:10:36
and tcs and we of course are in 45
00:10:38
countries so
00:10:39
right so globalization is i'm seeing it
00:10:41
in china now
00:10:42
many of our customers are going global
00:10:45
and the questions we ask them
00:10:46
how will you support me globally that's
00:10:49
the question i'm asked all the time yeah
00:10:52
what are the challenges you faced when
00:10:53
you went global because you're kind of
00:10:55
ahead of others in doing it so
00:10:56
both countries organizations are looking
00:10:59
to global
00:11:00
globalize both countries are looking at
00:11:03
aggressive growth so that's that's
00:11:04
common in that
00:11:06
also at least in india and to some
00:11:09
extent because private sector is not so
00:11:11
dominant in china as yet
00:11:14
concern for all stakeholders
00:11:18
entire group we of course have a huge
00:11:20
corporate social responsibility story
00:11:21
which is part of our dna
00:11:22
so looking after other aspects so
00:11:25
there's a stakeholder management which
00:11:26
is more comprehensive
00:11:28
i hear the same thing in china
00:11:32
there are there are issues of labor
00:11:34
there are issues of government there are
00:11:36
issues of poverty there are issues
00:11:38
we have to look at it it is not just a
00:11:40
bottom line driven
00:11:42
q and q growth of eps that is only one
00:11:45
part of the story and not just
00:11:47
shareholder wealth maximization either
00:11:48
that is good yeah
00:11:49
so both sides look at that
00:11:54
we are also short of people on both
00:11:55
sides meaning and we're not short of
00:11:57
people we've got one and a half billion
00:11:58
people each and both countries but
00:12:01
qualified
00:12:02
leadership qualified management ranks
00:12:05
are scarce in both countries
00:12:06
because bo or the rest of the world has
00:12:09
also assumed that there is some good
00:12:11
talent in these countries
00:12:12
that they also pick them up so it's a
00:12:14
hunting ground for everyone a lot of
00:12:15
multinationals run by good people from
00:12:17
these countries
00:12:18
so trying to develop management and
00:12:21
leadership
00:12:21
becomes a big challenge for senior
00:12:23
leadership you can't
00:12:25
divorce it you will not grow orderly
00:12:29
and the metrics that you seize unless
00:12:31
you develop your team
00:12:32
simultaneously this is so hr
00:12:35
and developing of people and leadership
00:12:37
takes a long time
00:12:38
and it takes a lot of time of ours in
00:12:40
both countries
00:12:42
china has a bigger problem sometimes
00:12:44
because they are growing so far so much
00:12:45
faster
00:12:46
and this is a challenge that we hear
00:12:48
from them and i when i talk to our
00:12:49
customers and our own team
00:12:51
in china talks to me about this problem
00:12:53
and i talk to them a lot about this so
00:12:55
these are the two
00:12:55
these are three or four common things
00:12:58
what about the different things
00:12:59
the differences are obviously as you
00:13:02
would
00:13:03
expect a little bit of history and a
00:13:05
little bit of culture
00:13:07
so in india both of us have common sort
00:13:11
of colonial experiences
00:13:13
and and then you know we roughly both of
00:13:16
us came out of the colonial experience
00:13:17
as independent countries around the same
00:13:19
time
00:13:20
um and and the the the difference
00:13:24
in in india is that our uh uh
00:13:27
the the commonwealth system of
00:13:29
government allowed us to
00:13:31
internationalize much faster our legal
00:13:33
systems or government
00:13:35
whereas they for a long time were part
00:13:37
of a very different
00:13:38
philosophy so we are different in the
00:13:41
way we think
00:13:43
and different the way they think it's
00:13:46
like the question once i was in one of
00:13:48
the
00:13:49
mayor in one of the cities asked me the
00:13:50
question he said in china in china
00:13:53
and we were they were going to give us
00:13:54
some award or the other and during the
00:13:56
lunch time the first question he asked
00:13:57
so mr pandey
00:13:59
how did you like slum dog millionaire so
00:14:02
i said yeah good he said he also liked
00:14:04
it and he saw it twice with his family
00:14:06
the third question he asked me how did
00:14:09
the government allow it
00:14:11
allow the film allow the film to be
00:14:13
produced so i kind of looked
00:14:14
puzzled i said you know frankly i know
00:14:16
the company knew about it
00:14:18
government may not have been aware
00:14:19
they're not even aware of it and even if
00:14:21
they were aware of it there was precious
00:14:22
little they could do about it that's
00:14:24
right
00:14:24
so you got a mindset which is different
00:14:27
in these
00:14:28
matters second
00:14:32
the confusion thinking which dominates
00:14:35
chinese mindset in everything they do
00:14:40
has a lot of respect for authority
00:14:43
and a lot of respect for a certain
00:14:46
restraint
00:14:47
on leadership so it's a very top-down
00:14:50
driven
00:14:51
issue there are no arguments
00:14:55
and i always have a challenge when i'm
00:14:57
in with our chinese team
00:14:59
i want them to argue i encourage them to
00:15:02
argue
00:15:02
i say to them all knowledge does not
00:15:05
reside in me
00:15:06
in fact the least resides in me i am
00:15:08
here to listen
00:15:09
hear from you it's difficult in india
00:15:12
you open a room
00:15:13
full of young people and you don't have
00:15:14
a chance to talk you you don't have it
00:15:16
you don't have to invite them to
00:15:18
challenge your
00:15:18
chance yeah so that's two different
00:15:20
styles it is not to say that
00:15:23
there are not great ideas coming out in
00:15:24
china but it's just
00:15:26
the way you have to address it is
00:15:28
different they maybe sometimes you have
00:15:30
to do it individually in smaller groups
00:15:32
and they come out with as good as yes i
00:15:34
have no issues of one is better than the
00:15:36
other i'm just saying that
00:15:38
the mindset of the two management and
00:15:42
teams
00:15:42
are slightly different when they come to
00:15:44
solving problems and which would mean
00:15:46
you'd have to
00:15:47
use different leader behaviors to elicit
00:15:50
that is true
00:15:51
to elicit the ideas true and then if you
00:15:53
were
00:15:54
implementing something if everyone has
00:15:56
agreed to implement
00:15:58
a china team would execute it perfectly
00:16:00
absolutely perfectly
00:16:01
not the same in india not the same in
00:16:03
india because they would argue
00:16:04
continuously
00:16:05
interesting and i always remember
00:16:08
mathias book the argumentative indian
00:16:10
right they would continuously argue and
00:16:12
you have to
00:16:13
keep on arguing with them while you're
00:16:15
doing it third
00:16:18
i think over the years chinese have
00:16:19
realized the value of delivering on time
00:16:22
it is sacrosanct in that country to
00:16:25
sacrifice you don't miss deadlines
00:16:28
whether they're building a bridge or
00:16:30
they're building a
00:16:31
i.t system and a customer is expected
00:16:36
i i was asked we were building a huge
00:16:38
system for the central bank of china
00:16:40
id system massive trading system
00:16:43
they wanted an hour to hour project plan
00:16:46
hour two hours in some key what was the
00:16:49
length of the whole project two and a
00:16:51
half years my god the main trading
00:16:53
system for the chinese yuan
00:16:54
training that is how they have built
00:16:58
bridges
00:16:58
that's how they're built large
00:17:00
organizations and cities
00:17:02
with an amazing amount of what i call
00:17:04
military precision
00:17:06
indian organizations don't yet know the
00:17:09
value of that
00:17:10
i think they're learning but if you ask
00:17:12
me the difference
00:17:13
the execution capability in china is
00:17:15
absolutely outstanding now
00:17:17
is there any potential downside to this
00:17:19
command and control
00:17:20
military precision as you're talking
00:17:22
about
00:17:23
i think they are realizing that there
00:17:26
are downsides
00:17:27
creativity doesn't flower easily new
00:17:30
ideas
00:17:31
are not expected from people who face
00:17:33
customers
00:17:34
that easily and i think many of them are
00:17:38
are also understanding that while there
00:17:40
are upsides to this
00:17:41
strategy in terms of project
00:17:42
implementation
00:17:44
there could be downsides in in india we
00:17:47
find lot more of ideas coming out
00:17:49
some crazy some work while worthwhile
00:17:52
but they're coming out all the time
00:17:55
um because i think we we either allow it
00:17:58
or it's part of our
00:18:00
dna argument and the leader has to
00:18:02
actually
00:18:03
address those arguments you you you
00:18:05
cannot just say
00:18:06
i am the leader that is unacceptable
00:18:10
to an open style that you are diverse so
00:18:11
you have to argue with all of them takes
00:18:13
much longer
00:18:14
let me bounce something off you it seems
00:18:15
to me based on my knowledge of both
00:18:18
china and india
00:18:20
and most recently you know my years in
00:18:22
singapore
00:18:24
the whole notion of social order in the
00:18:27
chinese world is really quite different
00:18:29
than in the indian world do you have
00:18:32
views on that
00:18:37
as i said there is a much larger
00:18:41
emphasis given to order right
00:18:46
i was once telling a chinese senior
00:18:48
chinese official
00:18:50
about how the indian trinity of gods of
00:18:53
creation destruction
00:19:01
and that's a very unusual concept to
00:19:03
them
00:19:05
very unusual concept because order is so
00:19:08
much part of the preserving order
00:19:10
and running it and not only so much part
00:19:11
of that like so i think it's it's
00:19:13
it's around us this the different
00:19:16
experience that they've had
00:19:18
the confusion the style uh
00:19:21
uh and the whole confusion mindset
00:19:25
along with the 50 years of a very hard
00:19:28
driven
00:19:29
communistic system has
00:19:32
probably brought that
00:19:48
you
