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hi I'm Jeff Klein executive director of
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the MCN leadership program at Wharton
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I'm here today to talk with Mario Musa
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author of committed teams three steps to
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inspiring passion and performance
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welcome to knowledge at Wharton Mario
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great to be here so Mario I've known you
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for some time and your interest range
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from influence to negotiation to
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organizational performance this is a a
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book about teams specifically committed
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teams
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what led you to write this book now yeah
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well for the past three years my
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co-authors and I have been involved with
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EDP the executive development program
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and as you know three times a year EDP
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brings in Executives from around the
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world about 60 Executives and they come
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here um they take uh they take courses
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uh they take sessions about uh
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leadership and finance and marketing and
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so on sure and then there's a very
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intense immersive simulation and then
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the third part of the program is
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teamwork they form into teams and they
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compete with each other for two weeks
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within the simulation within the
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simulation and the environment is very
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realistic so tensions Run High there's
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Euphoria lots of competition lots of
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collaboration the ups and downs of yeah
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right exactly so EDP really is a um a
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living laboratory in which we've had the
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opportunity to observe as we like to say
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a 100 te teams forming and competing
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with each other over a 100 simulated
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years so we like to think of this uh
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living laboratory as um an opportunity
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to do a lot of field work and so over
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that time uh We've gathered lots and
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lots of data and all that data now is
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captured in our book in a framework that
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we call the 3X3 I if I'm not mistaken
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Mario your two co-authors Derek Newberry
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and mine Boer both come at this work
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from anth anthropological training yeah
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AB so it must have been heaven for them
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to watch a hundred teams forming uh and
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evolving over time you got it yeah that
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that's exactly it so uh Derek Maddie
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were trained as anthropologists cultural
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anthropologists or business
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anthropologists really and then we work
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with a number of other observers we we
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call this whole team the HPT High
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performing team team of observers and
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most of them are trained social
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scientist and most of them are
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anthropologists so what they excel in is
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observing um we love to quote that great
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philosopher Yogi Bara you can observe a
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lot just by
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watching so most of the time we're not
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watching because we're distracted so
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we've really focused in on the
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experience that these teams have had as
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I said forming and competing and we've
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learned a lot from that so you mentioned
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uh the 3X3 framework which has come out
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of these observations um can you start
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to describe that for us a little bit
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sure what we found is high performing
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teams U basically when they're getting
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started on a task focus on three things
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goals roles and Norms so that's the
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first part of the the 3X3 and if you
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look at the teams literature you'll find
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versions of those basic foundations
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again and again and again uh so I
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wouldn't say that is all new though
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we've streamlined the the framework a
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little bit in that respect but we also
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find that you need to teams need to
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continually re revisit those foundations
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in the three steps that we mentioned in
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the title so step one is to commit to
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Shared goals roles and norms and what I
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hear in that is there there's something
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about being explicit about what those
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goals roles and Norms are absolutely
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yeah explicit and having a really good
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conversation about th those three things
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and maybe we could come back to you know
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how you really good conversation and
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then given that there are all kinds of
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pushes and pulls um in the typical work
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day so you may be one may be on multiple
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teams uh you may be working on multiple
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projects you have commitments out
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outside of work how are you describing
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my life right now exactly so you're
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distracted and you're going in many
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different directions and over time
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naturally almost inevitably there's
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drift on teams around those those goals
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roles and Norms so you need to revisit
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them so we um we found that high
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performing teams check in from time to
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time what does that look like
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it's going back to those original
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commitments like what do we want to do
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how do we want to work together how
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we're going to share information make
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decisions so on and so forth are we
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still committed to those things that we
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initially talked about if not how are we
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going to close the gap between what we
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say we want to do and what we're
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actually doing which leads to the third
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step which we call close and the key
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activity there is closing the Gap
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closing the saying doing Gap as we like
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to put it MH and what we found is that
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the the most effective way to close that
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Gap is in small steps Okay small steps
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uh targeted at really specific changes
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um with attention paid to the
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environment in which the team is working
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and and attempts made to create an
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environment that supports taking those
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small steps and then being realistic
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about what you can do and what you can't
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do uh we like to say realistic optimist
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better than pure optimists because
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realistic optimists think ahead about
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what can get in the way of doing what
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they want to do so um the 3X3 you know
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in some uh is initial conversation about
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goals roles and norms and then checking
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in from time to time and then working to
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close the gap between what you're
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actually doing and what what you say you
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want to do and then doing that again and
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again and again and that's an iterative
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process and the and the key to doing
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that well is having a really good
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conversation or really paying attention
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to what's happening on the team and it
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turns out that it's really hard to pay
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pay attention yeah absolutely I mean as
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I think about it um you know the teams
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that I'm a part of now the teams that
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I've been a part of kind of flash
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through my mind and I'm I'm aware that
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in some of those teams those
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conversations felt like they were easier
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they were expected in other teams they
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were much harder right um what
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suggestions do you have for for for
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leaders of teams for teammates who want
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to make sure that they're able to have
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these kinds of check-in conversations
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yeah yeah so three things that um that I
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would offer as guidelines uh one is pay
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attention to style so we all have
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different styles of different kinds like
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some of us are extroverted some
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introverted some of us love conflict
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some of us don't and and so on so I'm
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going for kind of a rustic Dabber style
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uh and you you pull it off very well uh
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so have a conversation about Styles um
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two have one-on ones you know the best
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way to build relationships or a very
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helpful way to build relationships is
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through one-on-one uh dialogue not that
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you don't want to have group dialogue as
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well but if you just have group dialogue
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sometimes the group dynamics become so
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complex yeah uh it's just hard to manage
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so you're building trust more on a
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one-on-one basis uh and then uh I would
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say uh focus on a few things versus a
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lot of things right uh and you know
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teams typically get overwhelmed or often
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get overwhelmed because they're just
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trying to do too much or their goals are
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too big uh so keep it simple keep it uh
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keep it manageable and that helps then
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uh that if you do all those things you
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tend to have a better conversation uh
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than if you're you're not paying
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attention to how you talk to each other
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and you're not simplifying the things
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that you talk about as you uh as you and
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your colleagues observe teams within the
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executive development program did any um
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any ratio or relationship between kind
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of working time and check-in time emerge
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is there you know do you have guidelines
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uh for team leaders SP how to think
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about that yeah really good question uh
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so I want to give the answer the classic
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uh consultant answer it depends all
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right you heard it here uh so it really
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does depend uh some teams have a huge
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appetite for process and talking and
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have a huge need for that uh so they'll
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probably take more time with with
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check-ins uh some have more of a get it
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done sort of attitude and maybe are a
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little bit impatient and they're going
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to take less time for the for the
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check-ins but the really important point
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is to have check-ins yeah uh and then
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use your judgment as to what's most
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helpful you know how much time you want
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to spend on the check-ins now Mario I'd
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imagine
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um over a 100 teams that that you and
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your colleagues have observed uh I'd
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imagine that you witnessed some common
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errors or common mistakes that teammates
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teams can fall into do you want to maybe
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outline a few of those yeah sure uh a
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few yeah and uh yeah we've we've
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identified a few and we talk about them
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in in the book but one would be relying
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too much on one person okay uh we call
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that the you the great person Theory uh
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so there may be one person who has a
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really strong Vision who has a dominant
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personality or for one reason or another
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uh sends the message they can do it all
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uh it's uh it's you it's almost always a
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big mistake to focus too much on on one
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person uh another mistake that teams
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commonly make is focusing too much on
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simply a plan and not thinking about how
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to execute the plan and organizing
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people uh around that around that plan
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and that I imagine ties right right back
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into the discussion around roles
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absolutely yeah in fact you anticipated
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something that the next thing that I
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wanted to say which is that uh another
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mistake that teams make is not paying
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enough attention to roles uh so let's
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say they have a good discussion about
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their goals they're all behind their
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their goals and then they say let's go
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off and and do it if they don't have a
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conversation about who's going to do
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what in other words roles uh then
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usually they just don't maximize the
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their efforts uh you know so um roles uh
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not paying enough attention to execution
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focusing too much on one person those
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are some common errors that we see it in
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the book you describe uh a a trend that
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we see in the workplace that we see uh
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certainly in universities as well and
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that is this Reliance on teams to get
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things done um we are all members of
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multiple teams now so what's the kind of
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work that's really well suited to a team
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and and are is there a kind of work that
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maybe maybe a team's not best suited
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yeah yeah great question um I think um
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that's a really important question and I
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think probably it's not asked enough uh
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these days so there's lots of evidence
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that generally speaking groups don't
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maximize their their potential because
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they you know because they don't
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organize well and often groups take on
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tasks that should be done by individuals
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you know for example tasks that require
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specialized expertise or highly creative
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tasks um let's say uh writing a like
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writing a poem or a symphony but in a
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work setting it might be writing a
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report right uh so those sorts of tasks
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probably should be done by an individual
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and then also when time is really short
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you may want to have one person just do
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a task because individuals tend to be
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more efficient than than uh than groups
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on the other hand when you're working on
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a problem that requires multiple
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perspectives uh multiple sources of
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expertise that's probably when you want
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to work with a team and and you know
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apply the basic steps that we've been
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talking about right there's such
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pressure uh within organizations today
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to achieve um yet at the same time we
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know that teams need to be building
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capacity for the future uh what did you
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find and what advice do you have about
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how to manage that tension yeah no when
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to go fast and no when to go slow okay
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uh you know Dan can Dan canaman
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published a great book a few years ago
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called Thinking Fast and Slow absolutely
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and uh we like to say there's a lot of
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wisdom in that so uh when you need to go
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fast maybe don't pay so much attention
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to team process uh but when uh when team
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process is really important you know
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when you need to pull in multiple
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perspectives for example that's when you
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want to slow down and be deliberate
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about how the team forms and how the
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team has its conversations right and and
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I I want to take us as we start to wrap
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up our time here um back to the
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beginning of the conversation where you
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were talking about this this process of
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committing and checking in um within the
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book you talk about the concept of
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psychological safety for team members um
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why is that what is that first of all
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and then why is it important to uh to
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this 3x3 framework sure yeah most of the
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time uh people do not speak their their
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minds we know that from lots and lots of
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research so you know well over half the
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time people are not sharing what they're
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thinking and feeling even on
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camera maybe maybe not
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uh so um you know the more information
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you have the better your decisions are
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going to be the better your
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collaboration is going to be so creating
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an environment where people feel uh that
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they're able to share their thoughts in
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other words where they feel safe in
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other words where their psychological
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safety turns out to be really important
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and if I were going to focus on one
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thing um I think it would be that
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creating an environment of psychological
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safety and how do you do that that goes
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back to some of the things we were
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talking about earlier building trust
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having good one-on-one relation uh
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conversations uh listening uh showing
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empathy showing that you care um so this
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apparently soft factor of psychological
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safety uh plays a big role in delivering
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results I like to say that the soft
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stuff is the hard stuff absolutely
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absolutely now um you in my final
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question um want to ask you to do a
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little bit of reflection if I can sure
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um you wrote about teams in a team right
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and and so how did your partnership with
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Derek and meline um how did that evolve
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and how did you use the check-in process
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time sure yeah well being on a team is
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like being in a committed relationship
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uh you can't just phone it in it never
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works so um we were clear about what we
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wanted to do we wanted to write a book
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that was helpful to leaders making
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decisions in a in a in a team
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environment we were clear we wanted to
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speak to a wide audience
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uh we liked how each other wrote um we
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have compatible Styles and when things
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weren working out we talked about
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it so it's always nice when we get to
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live our work absolutely absolutely well
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Mara thank you so much for being here
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today with knowledge at work thank you
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it was a lot of
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fun
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[Music]
