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uh this is Mike Yim I'm with uh my
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colleague Adam Grant and today we're
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going to talk with Alex Gorski chief
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executive and chair of the board of
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Johnson and Johnson a company with about
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130,000 employees it's part of the Dow
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Jones industrial average annual revenue
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somewhere North of$ 70 billion in 250
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companies around the world uh Alex uh
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welcome and today I'm going to just jump
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right in with a question about uh some
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of the tougher decision you've made in
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fact let me make it the toughest
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decision that you've made in the last
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year or so if you could just describe
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the decision what what were the
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conflicting concerns and then how did
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you work that one through uh given the
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fact that you lead a rather large
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company well hey Mike and Adam thank you
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first of all very much for having me
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here and on behalf of all the employees
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of Johnson and Johnson I'm really proud
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to be here to be able to talk to you
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about some of the issues and thank you
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for all the things that you're doing
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here at Wharton know Mike fortunately or
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unfortunately during my career I've had
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a chance to be part of some pretty
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significant decisions along the way be
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it strategic business
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operational uh but I've got to say I
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think some of the most challenging and
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probably the most challenging has been
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as it relates to very significant
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organizational and people changes within
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our company and um particularly when you
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know that uh this is something that can
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impact employees future uh that can
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affect families those are things that uh
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you always want to to do with a lot of
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thought with a lot of care and a lot of
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empathy um and so th those types of
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decisions for me personally have always
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been some of the most challenging and um
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you there's a few things that we try to
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do obviously the first is make sure that
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you've got the right team around you um
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you know so many of the decisions that
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ultimately end their wind their way to
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me have by and large been decided by a
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great group of leaders who have a
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tremendous amount of responsibility in
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terms of their businesses and the
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organizations that they represent two
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it's to make sure that as you're going
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through and making those decisions that
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you provide an atmosphere where you can
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really have debate where you can really
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have challenge where there's not just a
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pre-ordained
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recommendation and frankly where 1 plus
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one can equal four or five in the whole
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decision-making process uh and I've
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always found that encouraging A
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diversity of opinion by different
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members sometimes even challenging
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people to come in and argue the opposite
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of the direction that we're heading uh
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to really make sure that you've thought
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through the implications and then last
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but not least it's once you've made that
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decision recognizing that there's going
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to be different points of view of
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getting full alignment around your
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leadership team so that you have you're
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speaking then in one voice and in a
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common Direction and um you know that's
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what I've seen be some of the one of the
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biggest challenges but that's the way
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that we tried to deal with it to make
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sure that um you know we're ultimately
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making the best decisions for the
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company and all of our stakeholders
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great thank you Alex Alex is there an
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example that stands out particularly
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when it comes to challenging people to
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bring different opinions or maybe even
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argue for the opposite of what they
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believe where you were able to stimulate
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that and it had a positive effect yeah
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you know there's I've had a number along
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the way but I think you know one in
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particular stood out for me you know
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related to you know one of our products
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where we were making a specific
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recommendation about it on the market
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and there was a lot of pressure tied to
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the issue and right before we actually
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made that decision I remember calling
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our chief counsil that night and I said
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you know I'd like you to talk to a law
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firm and actually have them argue the
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opposite point of view so we actually
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went outside the company you know and
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had them and what I found through that
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process was we we ended up staying in
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the right decision but it made sure that
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I think we had much more confidence and
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conviction in the particular position
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that we took uh by taking that pause you
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know I think that as a senior executive
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yes you want to be decisive but you also
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have got to realize the impact that your
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decisions can have and so I think taking
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that extra moment having that extra
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challenge is good
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practice Alex you came out of the US
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Military Academy at West Point took a
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job pretty much at the ground level in a
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unit at Johnson and Johnson and in your
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first job as I recall you led nobody you
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were pretty much on your own uh but you
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moved up 3300 3,000 and now3 30,000
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question about how you've had to change
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your leadership style going from nobody
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to a few then a lot and now over a
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100,000 how was your thinking about
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leadership evolved what's different now
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from the way you would have led say 10
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years ago in the way you operate sure
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Mike well your leadership does need to
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evolve As you move through an
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organization and uh I think there's a
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lot of lessons you learned some that
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I've learned along the ways number one
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is learning the importance of it's not
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really what I do but it's about what the
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people who you work with do and working
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through others I think that's one of the
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biggest challenges facing man is
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learning that skill where you're no
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longer the individual contributor but
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you're contributing by bringing together
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a group of people who have different
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skills different capabilities and
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working through them to accomplish a
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particular task um and uh I see that as
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you know being a a significant challenge
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facing many leaders as they move through
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an organization that was certainly one
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for me the second one is really
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understanding the global impact of your
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decision when you're starting in one
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particular area and you have a rather
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local impact to today where every
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decision you have can have an impact
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globally you know from Mumbai to
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Minneapolis uh from Warsaw uh you know
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to Miami and always considering what
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that true Global impact of a particular
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decision can be and I would say last but
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not least it's about you know always
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trying to predict uh what the Strategic
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implications are so what are the second
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or third order consequences of a
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particular decision versus the immediate
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impact um you know Johnson and Johnson
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fortunately is a company that's been
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around for over 126 years and I'm always
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trying to think about what is it over
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the next 10 years not the next just one
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year or two years and certainly there's
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always an issue toour that we're working
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on but I'm trying to think about what is
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what are the decisions that we can make
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what are the directions we can go that
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is going to continue our track record of
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sustainability for the next decade for
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the uh for the next 100 years right Alex
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you're known not only as somebody who
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cares a lot about developing leaders but
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also about your leaders developing
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leaders below them how do you figure out
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one who those people are that are likely
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to be good at leadership development and
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and two what do you actually teach them
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yeah that's a great question and I do
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believe that one of the best indicators
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of leadership is a Leader's track record
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in developing leaders and um I uh I will
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frequently focus on three areas when I'm
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interviewing or when I'm talking to
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people and one is certainly on
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performance because you always want to
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have leaders who are committed to high
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performance and good markets bad markets
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diverse Global markets handling a wide
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range of different
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scenarios secondly I always focus on
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what's their track record of developing
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Future Leaders and uh one of my favorite
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question questions is to ask people you
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know name the three or four leaders that
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if I went out and asked you know them
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who had the biggest impact on their
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career and how they do that who are
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those four people that you would name
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and at a senior level if they can't name
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three or four fairly senior level people
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then immediately I question their
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wherewithal in people development and
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last I'll ask how did they move their
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businesses how did they develop Talent
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with our Credo in mind and uh so for me
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it gives me an indication of how
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committed they are to developing
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individuals to developing teams you know
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and frankly figuring out how to work
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through others to get their jobs done
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you know Alex as people look at a high
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office whether Community the mayor a
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company chief executive the country the
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president uh people are looking in and
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sometimes their perceptions are on the
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money and sometimes they're wrong being
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inside that room at Johnson and Johnson
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what do you think is the perception of
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leadership in general maybe leadership
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in particular in your own experience
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that turns out to be most incorrect
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where do people looking at leaders often
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not see what's really there the way they
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ought to well I think that one of the um
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one of the most significant myths about
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leadership is that you know the the top
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leader is there than to just make the
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decision versus taking much more of a
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service oriented approach that in fact
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know you are in service to many of those
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who in fact are going to be impacted by
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your decision and um you know and I can
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tell you right now that I I definitely
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um approach the job from the latter and
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uh always trying to understand the
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consequences the implications that your
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decisions are going to have on your
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different stakeholders ranging from
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customers the communities that you work
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in your shareholders your employees all
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the people that you know that might be
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touched and and learning at the end of
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the day we're really in service to them
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and that uh the jobs that we do the
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roles that we hold uh have got to be
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ultimately to helping all of those
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stakeholders realize their objectives
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and um and I think you know frequently
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it's it's not about the the quote boss
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making a certain decision is about the
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decisions we make in service of those
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stakeholders that's really important so
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Alex building on that what is the
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success or accomplishment over your
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career that you're most proud
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of you know I think the the the thing
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that I'm most proud of uh um uh are the
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great leaders that I've had a chance to
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work with along the way uh who have gone
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on to take great positions of
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responsibility and frankly make a
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difference uh within J&J and of course
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in other areas as well um you know I've
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had a a the opportunity to work with a
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broad number of people through my you
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know several decades now and frankly
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starting with my time in the military uh
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starting with my time uh as a coach uh
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with my son's te teams to my time at
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Johnson and Johnson sometime at naris as
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well there's nothing that gives me
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greater satisfaction than knowing that
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people have been able to go on and
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frankly do a lot of good things uh for
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patients for consumers along the way uh
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that's a great deal of satisfaction and
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of course most importantly just knowing
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that the products and the services that
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we're offering every day hopefully are
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helping people live longer healthier and
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happier lives um that uh that's a great
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sense of
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satisfaction Alex a question for people
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who are just coming into leadership
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responsibilities so think about the
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first job when you had responsibility
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for others I think maybe even later on
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but especially for those who are first
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taking on a significant leadership role
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from your own experience what are the
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one or two lines of advice that you like
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to pass on to them so they can get to
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where they want to get to and taking on
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that leadership
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obligation look I think a couple of
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things one would say is what's really
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important for early leaders is to be
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themselves you know so often leaders get
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into a role and they maybe have some
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ideal of what it is to be a leader that
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they try to be and I think the most
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important thing that a new leader can
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have stepping into a role is humility is
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understanding that they're going to
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learn that they're going to make
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mistakes and uh to you know approach the
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scenario something where they're going
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to have to grow into and and um and I
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think having that kind of a
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mindset uh will immediately endear the
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people who are working with you and
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around you they're not looking for a
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perfect leader they want a leader that
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cares about them and who's going to help
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them try to be better and I think as a
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new leader if you remember that uh that
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they expect you to be human that you're
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going to make mistakes uh and that as
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long as you learn and and care for the
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people who are wicked with you I think
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that's the most important thing that you
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can do quick final add-on question on
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that um as you come to lead more and
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more people uh height touch becomes more
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difficult you've got people all over the
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world and thus the tone you set at the
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top the culture the ethics the values
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become critical Johnson and Johnson has
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a very famous CR 300 a few words that
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say we're here on Earth to serve people
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that need our products great Community
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great employment setting and then we
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work for shareholders as well when I was
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in your headquarters a couple years ago
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I noticed that that K is carved in stone
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on the main floor of headquarters what
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happens if you want to change the
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kedo well look Mike as you know that the
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the KRDO is our aspiration of Johnson
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and Johnson you know written over 70
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years ago by General Robert Wood Johnson
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himself it's been a great source of
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inspiration and uh it does outline our
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responsibilities to our different
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stakeholders all that you mentioned
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customers employees communities as well
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as
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you know shareholders ultimately and um
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and and Through the Years there have
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been a few times when it has been
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updated uh but the core principles are
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something that we don't think should
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change and um you know as I stepped into
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this role just as my predecessors I
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think one of the first things we've
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always tried to do is reaffirm our
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commitment to those core principles
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embodied in that document now I think as
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as we what's more important for me Us in
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the organization how we bring that crdo
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to life and how do you make sure that
00:14:03
every day when decisions are made in
00:14:06
many different areas around the world
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and different business organizations
00:14:11
that the crle remains kind of our moral
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compass the glue that holds us together
00:14:16
and that's something that we constantly
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reinforce through town hall meetings
00:14:20
through Outreach programs in fact just
00:14:22
this year it's the 70th anniversary of
00:14:24
our kedo we're having a CREDO challenge
00:14:26
sessions where every Board of the 250
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companies that you mentioned earlier is
00:14:30
challenging the relevance of our CR and
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going through it line by line and I
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think it's through that as you keep that
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alive in the organization again which we
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think is incredibly important to make
00:14:42
sure that we do the right thing it's all
00:14:44
about leading people it's all about
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leading values and it's all about
00:14:48
sustaining the culture so Alex thank you
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for joining us today we really
00:14:52
appreciate it thanks very much thank you
00:14:54
Mike thank you Adam thanks Alex
00:14:58
[Music]
