00:00:08
Hi. Thanks so much for joining us, Mike.
00:00:10
Erika Thank you.
00:00:11
It's a privilege to be here.
00:00:13
So I thought I'd start with this age
old adage
00:00:17
or debate
whether or not leadership can be taught.
00:00:21
It's probably something
to do with our family, our
00:00:24
maybe friends and school culture,
too, along the way.
00:00:29
But I don't think anybody is born
with the leadership gene
00:00:32
or the teamwork gene or the creed,
the culture gene.
00:00:37
And if not and I actually think not,
00:00:40
then it's up to us to find ways
to help people.
00:00:43
Grade school on influence, parents
help people develop.
00:00:49
And it takes a long time.
00:00:50
It's a it's a hard road to begin
00:00:54
to master fairly early on.
00:00:57
The key elements, the key capabilities
00:01:01
of helping other people
to get to a more promised land.
00:01:05
It's learned.
00:01:06
Tell us your professional origin story
of how leadership
00:01:10
became so ingrained in something
that you wanted to do professionally.
00:01:14
Here's the origin story.
00:01:16
And like many origin stories, I'm
the accidental guy.
00:01:21
So I'm on the faculty here
at the Wharton School.
00:01:23
I was asked to join a committee
that was then going to bring
00:01:27
a new curriculum at the time into the MBA
program for executives.
00:01:33
Long story made sure we had no faculty
member to teach a newly
00:01:37
required course on leadership and teamwork
and the head of the committee.
00:01:42
I compliment the head of the committee
of being excellent
00:01:45
at strategy and negotiation.
00:01:48
I had pointed out that we don't have
anybody to teach the horn course,
00:01:52
and he looked at me and said, Well, Mike,
I guess you're going to have to do it.
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I said, I can't do it.
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I don't know a thing about the topic.
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And he said, Perfect.
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You won’t have any prior prejudice or bias.
00:02:03
So he was good.
00:02:04
Next thing I knew,
I was walking into a leadership classroom.
00:02:09
But like every topic that any of us
00:02:11
teach here at the Wharton School,
we weren't born with that.
00:02:14
We had to learn it. And I had to.
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I had to sit down and think about it.
00:02:18
Learn about it. I read about it.
00:02:20
I spent time with people like yourself.
00:02:22
Gradually,
I learned a little bit about leadership,
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enough to teach
and teach really well over the years.
00:02:29
If you can remember that
first year, the first couple of years
00:02:33
when you were teaching leadership
00:02:34
and you're learning it
along with your students in many respects.
00:02:38
Walk us through what that class was like.
00:02:40
What were some of the topics
that you covered?
00:02:42
How did you bring these issues to life
and get the students
00:02:47
to enact leadership,
not just read about it theoretically.
00:02:51
You know, Erika, it began with a head
start in the sense that the students
00:02:57
in the executive MBA
program, the MBA program for executives
00:03:02
average age 34, 35, as you know well,
00:03:06
they, without putting it quite in
00:03:08
these words, had an enormous hunger
for learning,
00:03:13
mastering, developing,
strengthening their own leadership, often
00:03:17
because they had taken over a team,
maybe a division, maybe a clinic,
00:03:22
because so many were in medicine,
some had become heads of law firms.
00:03:28
And they said,
I can't believe the mistakes I made.
00:03:32
Can you help us out?
00:03:34
And so in a sense,
I had a head start in that
00:03:38
the classroom did not need
a proof of concept.
00:03:42
The people in the class,
and that's true for our students now
00:03:45
when they arrive,
they've seen great leadership.
00:03:48
They've seen deplorable leadership.
00:03:51
So the first point I would make
is that went into a classroom.
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And even then
and unequivocally these days,
00:03:59
you you'd know that because
you go into classrooms to teach leadership
00:04:03
the interest and hunger for
00:04:07
the that the principals, the concepts, the
00:04:11
the capabilities of leadership
00:04:13
cannot be overstated.
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With that said, the classroom itself
00:04:19
was good, but not great
for the mastery of leadership,
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the classroom as a venue,
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returning the concepts and the action
00:04:31
can be subpar.
00:04:33
With that, said Ryan, as I do on cases
00:04:36
examples, I bring leadership speakers
into the classroom.
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It I also concluded it's really important
00:04:43
to take students mid-career
or even undergraduates.
00:04:47
iSchool students for that matter,
00:04:50
into settings where they can feel
and see the leadership moment.
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They can feel the moment
where their own leadership
00:04:58
is being tested or it's needed.
00:05:01
And for that, we began to experiment
very gingerly
00:05:06
with taking our students out to the great
Civil War battlefield, Gettysburg.
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This, of course, is July one,
00:05:14
two and three, 1863,
a kind of turning point in the Civil War.
00:05:19
And as you stand,
we're at some of the history making
00:05:23
locations were to appreciate,
00:05:26
for example, how critical
it is to be prepared ahead of time,
00:05:31
to be resilient when the time has come
to make a decision to be ready to act.
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You come to appreciate all that much more
00:05:39
how vital it is to be prepared
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to have thought through strategically
what you're going to do to have
00:05:46
people animated, motivated to follow you
when you go into battle.
00:05:51
So the Gettysburg battlefield
proved a kind of an experiment.
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I didn't know it was going to work.
00:05:57
A worked in my own experience very well
00:06:01
in helping people become more
00:06:04
committed to engaging with the ideas
00:06:07
and above all, more committed to then
applying the ideas that they the concepts,
00:06:13
the principles to the workplace,
or if they're still a student
00:06:17
and in the student organizations
they may be maybe part of.
00:06:20
Since then, working now with what
we call the McNulty Leadership program,
00:06:25
we have rolled out a series
or a comparable experiences.
00:06:31
So, Erika, as you know well,
00:06:33
we take students for a day
with the New York Fire Department
00:06:36
at its great training center on Randall's
Island, East River of Manhattan.
00:06:41
And our students go through
00:06:44
a day of direct engagement and survey.
00:06:48
Now equipment and all around them
and a helmet on their head,
00:06:55
serving in small teams,
going in to fire combat.
00:07:00
You have to be safe.
00:07:01
Risk is considerable.
00:07:02
We don't put our students
in a risky circumstance there.
00:07:06
So we have developed a program
that emphasizes, for example, teamwork
00:07:10
and risk abatement and working
with the New York Fire Department.
00:07:14
We have a program going back,
I think, about 20 years now with the U.S.
00:07:18
Marine Corps
officer, candidate School, Quantico,
00:07:23
the base in Virginia, about 45 minutes
south of Washington.
00:07:27
And there are students
that I've been through the program
00:07:31
under the extremely effective instruction
00:07:34
of Marine Corps officers and drill
sergeants.
00:07:38
Our students
I've been on a team down there.
00:07:42
I put myself through.
00:07:43
I learned the vital importance of here
and a small team
00:07:48
of everybody contributing
to the team of the team leader run
00:07:54
the best
00:07:55
out of
all four or five people on the team.
00:07:58
If you're ultimately
going to meet your objective and I think
00:08:01
all of that is just so representative
of what makes Wharton's approach
00:08:07
to leadership really distinctive
00:08:09
and helps us
then put out into the world really strong
00:08:14
leaders, regardless of their professional
background and over the last 30 years,
00:08:19
this school, your school now as Dean
00:08:23
has in my view, pioneered
00:08:26
the provision of leadership,
learning opportunities in class work,
00:08:30
extracurricular settings to high school
00:08:33
students, to undergraduates, MBA
students, executive MBA
00:08:37
students and mid-career
people for a good reason.
00:08:41
And that is
00:08:44
the world that we live
in, I think has learned
00:08:48
that the difference
between a prospering company,
00:08:50
a company
that is going to grow but not grow as fast
00:08:54
as it should, or a company
that can adopt new technologies.
00:08:57
And one that does not depends
critically on the quality
00:09:01
of the leadership at the top
and actually through out the links.
00:09:05
So our engagement
now with all of our constituencies
00:09:09
in providing leadership
development opportunities
00:09:12
I think is just a direct product
to how the world is calling for it.
00:09:16
And we are trying to deliver it.
00:09:18
I was hired to be Dean of Wharton
as an external hire.
00:09:22
How how should companies
think about succession planning
00:09:26
for leadership when it comes to
internal or external hiring?
00:09:32
It was a great question
00:09:33
because it always comes up
when almost anybody is hiring.
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There is always a
00:09:38
let's look over our shoulder
and there's some outsiders that are good.
00:09:42
But when you know the data, 90%
00:09:45
of let's make it the S&P 500 companies,
when you have a succession
00:09:50
event in 90% of the cases
they hire internally
00:09:55
and that's a good sign that usually points
00:09:58
to, in fact, a very good indication
00:10:01
that the company has been concerned
about leadership development.
00:10:05
30 years ago, a very few companies,
except GE,
00:10:08
had a whole lot of leadership development
going on today.
00:10:11
Everybody does and does one product
00:10:16
of a great internal leadership
development,
00:10:19
a specific educational program,
or helping people move around the company
00:10:23
to learn all the different functions
before they are ready to become
00:10:28
a totally general manager.
00:10:31
These kinds of endeavors have become
00:10:33
not only widespread,
but they're commonplace snow and ice.
00:10:38
In saying that, I do point to the fact
that I think companies have become,
00:10:43
with the prodding of their boards,
much better
00:10:46
at internal leadership development,
which partly explains the 90%.
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There are great people
00:10:53
appreciate the person
that you just brought up at your company.
00:10:57
It's great.
00:10:58
Looks like a very promising future.
00:11:01
That said,
there is also great academic research
00:11:04
on the fact
that if a company is in trouble,
00:11:07
kind of strategically misdirected
00:11:10
or maybe just poorly managed,
00:11:13
showing up in the stock price
or whatever metrics you use,
00:11:16
it's good to take a look
over your shoulder
00:11:20
and ask yourself
whether great people out there
00:11:23
that can make up for the cultural
shortcomings or the strategic shortcomings
00:11:28
that have become endemic
within our company.
00:11:31
So quick summary is companies
much better leadership development.
00:11:36
So I expect that 90% to stay pretty high.
00:11:39
We're looking at on the inside.
00:11:40
But it is, you know, this
the duty of director is to make certain
00:11:45
you're getting the best out there
and of a company has been in trouble.
00:11:49
It's languishing, it's underperforming.
00:11:52
It's an especially good time
to take a look around.
00:11:55
So I have been fortunate
to have been invited by you
00:11:59
on several occasions to teach in some of
your programs at the Wharton School.
00:12:03
And as you know, my own area of expertise
is in crisis leadership.
00:12:07
As you
00:12:08
see what's happening in the world,
there are all sorts of dynamics
00:12:12
that make it increasingly difficult
for companies to be successful.
00:12:17
How do you think about leadership
00:12:22
in a time of crisis versus
in sort of more strategic growth
00:12:27
context?
00:12:29
Well, to take a step back on that,
to establish a baseline,
00:12:33
good to ask yourself
00:12:36
as a leader of an academic institution,
has the leader
00:12:40
of a private sector company,
00:12:43
under
what conditions does your leadership have?
00:12:45
It has to impact.
00:12:47
Good way to sum that up.
00:12:49
Not talking.
00:12:49
Now we're really talking when
00:12:52
this comes out again, University research
00:12:56
has when the university,
the company, the the hospital,
00:13:01
the community group is facing
00:13:03
a difficult period when uncertainty
is high, it's unclear which way to go.
00:13:09
Leadership has greatest consequence
00:13:12
in a period of uncertainty and change.
00:13:15
And not only that,
00:13:17
if we look very carefully, it's hard
research to do, but has been done.
00:13:22
If we look very carefully at
how much difference one person could make
00:13:26
who is elevated from the inside
or maybe brought in from the outside.
00:13:30
The statistic that for me says it all
00:13:34
is that if we hire the right person
00:13:36
as opposed to the wrong person,
00:13:39
the right person can make as much as 20
to 30% difference
00:13:43
within 1 to 3 years.
00:13:46
Same finding for collegiate sports,
00:13:50
same finding for professional football.
00:13:53
So as they bring in a new general manager
or a new coach,
00:13:57
everything else, the same same players,
same fan, same venue,
00:14:02
right Coach versus the wrong coach,
the right general manager versus
00:14:06
the wrong one can make
as much as 20 to 30% difference.
00:14:10
So we've really got to get it right.
00:14:13
And I think that's increasingly
so because of this uncertainty.
00:14:17
Markets in
00:14:18
a way,
a capital follows these days in the U.S.
00:14:21
and abroad.
00:14:23
So to put this a little bit
more normatively or prescriptive play,
00:14:28
really important to get the formula right
for the kind of leader
00:14:31
that's going to make a difference.
00:14:33
Every institution is different.
00:14:34
That is true because the impact is a,
00:14:39
it's subscale.
00:14:41
It certainly is.
00:14:42
And I think also about what's happening
just in our country
00:14:46
and what many people would describe
00:14:49
as a void of leadership at every level.
00:14:52
And how do we move as a society
from what we're seeing.
00:14:58
You know, the House had trouble finding
a new speaker for a period of months
00:15:02
that was leaderless.
00:15:03
There are so many examples of ineffective
or troubled leadership.
00:15:09
How do we, with credibility,
teach our students at Wharton
00:15:15
that leadership actually matters
when all around them
00:15:18
they're seeing such a vacuum of leadership
in some respects,
00:15:23
and with the proviso
which I should have referenced earlier,
00:15:28
that the impact of the
00:15:30
the coach at a professional NFL team,
the impact of a dean or a president
00:15:35
of university is especially consequential
in a period of uncertainty.
00:15:41
Change, and in particular during a crisis.
00:15:45
So that itself
00:15:47
tells me, as I've looked at the research
literature that supports that,
00:15:51
it is vital to
00:15:54
reiterate that point.
00:15:56
The conceptual framing that we can offer
00:15:59
and then provide opportunity is
00:16:02
where people will come to our shores
or undergraduates or MBA students.
00:16:07
Last time I checked,
I think we have about 2000 MBA students
00:16:11
and several thousand
undergraduates, 15,000 mid-career people,
00:16:16
a couple million people
who were coming into our programs online.
00:16:21
Really important, really important
00:16:24
for us
to get the content of those programs right
00:16:28
and to make them available to everybody
who was looking to strengthen
00:16:31
their ability to make a difference
and get us all
00:16:35
to a born promised land.
00:16:39
So I want to switch the conversation
back to you for a minute.
00:16:42
As you think about your career at Wharton
00:16:46
and and beyond.
00:16:49
Was there any particular student
that stood out for you
00:16:53
as someone who helped
you think about your own work
00:16:58
and life and responsibilities
around leadership differently?
00:17:00
Who, Who has impacted Mike Useem?
00:17:05
I'm going to name two students,
and I'm actually going to name them.
00:17:08
They're their public figures.
00:17:09
So I think this is appropriate.
00:17:12
One is Tricia Griffith,
00:17:15
who is the chief executive
of Progressive Insurance.
00:17:20
By the way, a couple years ago,
she was the star on the front of Fortune
00:17:24
magazine
as the Fortune 500 CEO of the Year.
00:17:29
I've met her.
00:17:29
I understand why
she received that designation.
00:17:33
And she is a terrific performer
and she's just a wonderful person.
00:17:38
She's an alumnus who came out of our
what we call
00:17:40
our advanced management program
that you teach in.
00:17:44
And just to make an observation on her
that has
00:17:49
forever affected how I think about what
you do, what our President does,
00:17:54
what the President of the United States
does is.
00:17:58
I had asked to follow her around for a day
at her
00:18:01
headquarters outside of a little bit
to the east, to Cleveland, Ohio.
00:18:05
He said, yeah, come on out.
00:18:08
We walked
00:18:09
into a room that was already filled up
with 300
00:18:13
new hires, a progressive insurance
there, huge 40,000 employees.
00:18:18
They're always hiring.
00:18:20
So income in comes Tricia Griffith, CEO.
00:18:24
She stopped on the way
to the front of the room.
00:18:28
Stuck out a hand and had a conversation
00:18:31
with maybe a dozen people
on the way to the front.
00:18:34
She said as she then took the microphone,
she says, I'm Tricia Griffith.
00:18:39
I started here at Progressive
as an adjuster many years ago.
00:18:45
I realized sometimes you had to lift
cars up to see underneath.
00:18:49
So I became a certified lift operator,
00:18:53
forklift operator, where you can pick
large objects up, including cars.
00:18:57
And I'm thinking, Whoa.
00:18:59
So she is Lucy's CEO.
00:19:02
She's the CEO as they come now,
00:19:05
But she has a blue collar past.
00:19:08
And I could sense in the room
when I talked to a few of the participants
00:19:11
that at the end of that,
Tricia Griffith had just given me a lesson
00:19:17
on the vital importance of being in touch
to the extent that you can.
00:19:21
She's got 40,000 people
00:19:24
with always their
00:19:25
last way to illustrate the same point.
00:19:29
There is a lunch room
00:19:30
at the headquarters where it must be
hundreds of people will come to take
00:19:35
a table.
00:19:37
And Tricia Griffith happened
the habit of walking into the lunch room,
00:19:41
looking to a table that haven't had five
people seated, not six.
00:19:46
And she would come over and say,
Do you mind if I step down,
00:19:49
sit down with you for lunch?
00:19:51
Everybody is looking at their neighbors,
texting their partner.
00:19:56
I can't believe I'm
sitting next to the CEO.
00:19:59
But with that repeated effort
00:20:03
to personalize her relationship,
00:20:07
her ability to lead the company
00:20:11
put her under front of Fortune magazine
as the best CEO of the year.
00:20:16
So here is a second example.
00:20:17
Just a very quickly
get back to your question.
00:20:21
Here a person I knew, you know well named
Alex Gorsky had been chief executive
00:20:27
at Johnson
00:20:27
Johnson for the better part of a decade.
00:20:30
He now serves,
as you well know, also on the board
00:20:33
of Apple of IBM and JPMorgan Chase.
00:20:37
So he's moved from
00:20:39
running companies to now
helping helping the governance countries.
00:20:42
I personally have known Alex.
00:20:45
He was an executive MBA student
quite some time ago.
00:20:48
We've kept in touch.
00:20:50
He has come in many times.
00:20:52
He's a great supporter
of the Wharton School, as you know.
00:20:56
I've had him come in many times
as a guest instructor, and
00:21:02
the who's impact on students
is just extraordinary
00:21:06
as he and his case places
an almost emphasis
00:21:11
on what Johnson & Johnson
has always called the credo,
00:21:15
the 302 words that provide a
00:21:18
almost a blueprint on serving patients,
00:21:22
first families, communities and,
of course, shareholders are there.
00:21:27
And as Alex Gorsky comes into
00:21:29
the classroom, you know
better than anybody I've ever seen.
00:21:33
He helps us understand the power
of company culture to get the job done.
00:21:39
And I'm proud that I have had an
opportunity to interact with both of them.
00:21:43
So great examples.
00:21:44
So we're almost out of time,
and I want to just have this end
00:21:50
on how you think about your own legacy.
00:21:53
And you spent years at the Wharton School.
00:21:57
We all know your impact.
00:21:58
How would you most like to be thought
about when
00:22:01
people reflect on your role with Wharton?
00:22:05
We all have a purpose.
00:22:06
We all have a calling,
and let's get clear
00:22:10
minded about what it should be
was focused on that.
00:22:14
Let's get really determined
00:22:17
to make the best possible impact we can.
00:22:20
And for me personally, it's
been a gift to be a faculty member here,
00:22:24
a privilege
and a gift to be here as a faculty member.
00:22:28
But being drawn as an external professor
into a course on leadership,
00:22:33
I came to appreciate that
wherever my legacy may be,
00:22:38
I'm going to try as hard as I can
00:22:40
to help high school
00:22:41
students, undergraduates,
MBA students and mid-career people
00:22:44
and strengthen their ability
to make the world a better place.
00:22:50
Well, you have done that with
00:22:52
aplomb, and we are fortunate to
have had you part of the Wharton School.
00:22:56
Thank you.
00:22:57
Mike Useem thank you so much.
