00:00:17
you've already started to talk about my
00:00:20
next question but maybe you have any
00:00:23
specific thoughts that maybe have some
00:00:25
specific thoughts you might share both
00:00:29
about Indian annabelle Chinese Li
00:00:31
business leadership as a general
00:00:33
phenomenon I know this is painting with
00:00:37
a broad brush what do you see as some of
00:00:40
the strengths or some of the weaknesses
00:00:43
both on the Indian side and on the
00:00:45
Chinese side of business leadership they
00:00:48
are there are some similarities as you
00:00:50
said there are also differences could
00:00:53
you evaluate them more I mean if you're
00:00:57
looking at the weakness of both the
00:01:00
Indian and Chinese system clearly they
00:01:05
have to they are trying to address this
00:01:09
issue growth faster rapid and they just
00:01:14
don't have the some of them don't have
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the experience or the the way with all
00:01:20
the in terms of resources to manage it
00:01:22
and they don't have sometimes the
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systems to manage it they are evolving I
00:01:27
think that's a weakness they leave a lot
00:01:30
on the table sometimes there are holes
00:01:31
and what they do is I'm down their
00:01:33
losses especially in China their growth
00:01:36
because there many of their companies
00:01:39
are not driven by the stock market so
00:01:42
large investments are made which are
00:01:43
sometimes wasteful so I think they are
00:01:45
struggling with that same thing happens
00:01:47
determine India where the Indian
00:01:49
government entities do the same thing
00:01:51
right at least in the private sector not
00:01:53
sure in the private side anymore you
00:01:55
know tyranny of the market driving out
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all right so I think that's where the
00:02:00
difference is China is so largely
00:02:03
government dominated in terms of their
00:02:04
growth and so they they did tend to do
00:02:07
it their view is that you know you
00:02:10
should take a longer-term arise and if
00:02:11
you're building a road or a big plant
00:02:13
they'll add capacity six times in India
00:02:15
we would do it incrementally now their
00:02:18
view is that why are you seeing at five
00:02:19
years why don't you see ten year this is
00:02:20
infrastructure and therefore they have a
00:02:22
huge infrastructure whereas we are now
00:02:25
struggling to build infrastructure so
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dear in India so this is where I think
00:02:29
the
00:02:30
difference and the way they look at it
00:02:31
so they tend to take a much longer view
00:02:33
they have the scale in mind which is
00:02:35
much larger than the way India thinks of
00:02:37
scale still staying with leadership
00:02:39
patterns in China and India it seems to
00:02:43
me one of the themes you have talked
00:02:45
about is how just as your leadership
00:02:49
pattern changed over time depending on
00:02:51
the context you were in do you believe
00:02:54
the leadership pattern of Indian
00:02:56
business or Chinese business has changed
00:02:59
for instance has there been the
00:03:02
emergence of a different kind of
00:03:03
leadership pattern in Indian business
00:03:06
after the reforms of 1991 any thoughts
00:03:10
you'd care to share in that domain well
00:03:13
I mean I used to work in India before
00:03:14
the reform and post reform so there's a
00:03:18
clear watershed there's no debate in
00:03:20
anyone's mind in India that the private
00:03:23
sector of Indian business was shaken
00:03:28
substantially when I won't turn a group
00:03:30
we had big changes so that was a
00:03:33
watershed and the mindset opened up to
00:03:38
growth competition globalization all
00:03:42
those nice things that we now talk about
00:03:44
happened with that so that was the
00:03:46
change in Asia China had it earlier but
00:03:49
they also went two phases you had the
00:03:50
Deng reform then you had zoo wrong g as
00:03:53
a prime minister and WT opening for
00:03:56
china in the 90s so there was there were
00:03:58
a lot of that china and 90s post WTO was
00:04:01
a very different china from the danks
00:04:02
china and and and subsequently you know
00:04:06
I with China having the last five years
00:04:08
clearly demonstrating superior growth
00:04:12
globally by a long shot is another
00:04:16
different China so that three phases
00:04:18
that I see of China i have seen it in
00:04:20
the dang leadership time I've seen it
00:04:22
post WTO when 1998 I think the zoo wrong
00:04:26
she was a prime minister and he opened
00:04:29
up China to the world in a much bigger
00:04:31
way and then in the last three or four
00:04:33
years where China has grown so
00:04:35
substantially in every aspect the eight
00:04:39
and a half nine and a half percent
00:04:40
growth rates are astronomical for a
00:04:42
country of that scale and size so what
00:04:44
are the child
00:04:44
at that rate right I totally different
00:04:46
so let me invite you to just extend that
00:04:49
logic and think about the future both
00:04:52
India and China currently on very
00:04:55
impressive growth trajectories or also
00:04:58
of course some potential constraints to
00:05:01
this impressive growth continuing
00:05:03
indefinitely at this rate is the
00:05:07
availability of skilled leaders going to
00:05:09
become one of the important gating
00:05:12
factors in either India or China or both
00:05:15
I think that's an issue which worries us
00:05:19
every day where are we going to find
00:05:22
people and more importantly good leaders
00:05:24
who are going to take handle this group
00:05:26
because we see this growth continuing
00:05:27
for some time in both countries it's not
00:05:30
going to taper off in re unless so
00:05:33
availability of leadership which is
00:05:37
global in nature now because now we are
00:05:40
globalizing both of us and china i think
00:05:43
has a bigger challenge in finding global
00:05:45
leaders than india to some extent
00:05:48
because they start a little late and
00:05:50
their global companies are mostly the
00:05:52
public sectors which are and resources
00:05:54
the state-owned enterprises the internet
00:05:57
but i think what both of us will do will
00:06:00
use a we will develop leadership through
00:06:05
accelerated systems I think China is
00:06:09
using it better than India I think they
00:06:11
tend to use their non residents who are
00:06:14
coming back to Chinese many of them were
00:06:16
in this country to use them and get them
00:06:20
back into and I have seen some very good
00:06:22
talent which is coming back into China
00:06:24
so they have a pool of talent which is
00:06:27
outside which they are drawing on then
00:06:29
they have a pool of talent around Hong
00:06:30
Kong and on Taiwan and some of the
00:06:32
Southeast Asian countries which have the
00:06:36
Chinese ethnic ethnic Chinese who that
00:06:40
so they have that big pool to draw from
00:06:42
that's about 50 million has to say India
00:06:44
has this 20 million pool outside India
00:06:46
many of them in this country doing well
00:06:48
so I think we have to start using that
00:06:50
pool better especially in global affairs
00:06:53
they have started a little faster
00:06:55
because they are running short of good
00:06:57
talent but both of us will have this
00:07:00
issue of how do we wanna get it isn't it
00:07:03
starting to happen in India as well it
00:07:05
is Indian government has made efforts
00:07:07
and individual companies have started
00:07:08
doing that but it's not in the same
00:07:11
scale as China's not so if you actually
00:07:14
think of two or three action steps that
00:07:18
either business might take or government
00:07:21
might take or both might cooperate in
00:07:24
increasing this availability of skilled
00:07:26
business leaders what would it be for
00:07:29
China and for India to build these know
00:07:33
what steps my business or government
00:07:36
take to increase the supply of skilled
00:07:39
leaders of the kind that you believe are
00:07:43
really needed I think what will happen
00:07:46
is what will need to be done in both
00:07:48
countries is to the one will be in
00:07:51
company development where companies will
00:07:54
have to develop themselves through
00:07:56
mentoring through training leadership
00:07:58
training and most Indian companies the
00:08:01
big good ones have started leadership
00:08:03
training in a big way there's no debate
00:08:05
a lot of budgets are going into that and
00:08:07
that is a reflection of the shortage
00:08:09
that we foresee high attrition rates etc
00:08:13
that are going on so that the companies
00:08:16
have to do but they can do all of it
00:08:17
together the government have to build
00:08:19
this this infrastructure of Basic
00:08:23
Education and then thereafter management
00:08:26
education technical education
00:08:27
certification processes which has to be
00:08:30
done leadership at all levels so there's
00:08:33
a part of government which I think both
00:08:35
are realizing the government and the big
00:08:37
role in this it can't just abdicate this
00:08:40
to the private sector and finally I
00:08:43
think there will be select mobile hires
00:08:45
whether they are Indians are non in
00:08:47
resident indians are non
00:08:49
Chinese or global people I mean in
00:08:52
dollar group we have just hired x-gen
00:08:54
what is person to run tata motors i did
00:08:57
see that so yeah and the same thing in
00:08:59
Terra hotel's run by chinese american so
00:09:04
select global hires a lot of indian
00:09:07
companies are going to do that same
00:09:08
thing with detour china as you know
00:09:09
lenovo used to be run by the ex tell
00:09:11
person so they are both companies will
00:09:14
countries will do select global hearts
00:09:16
but those can be large numbers there
00:09:18
will be at leadership levels who can
00:09:20
bring a level of globalization into the
00:09:22
organization so just you mentioned
00:09:26
education and it occurs to me that
00:09:29
recently i have read in the news that
00:09:33
the current human resource development
00:09:36
minister in india mr. Sibal kapil sibal
00:09:40
is leading some interesting initiatives
00:09:43
in trying to bring foreign universities
00:09:46
into india this bill has been passed by
00:09:51
the cabinet and will be tabled before
00:09:53
Parliament what you see is the role of
00:09:55
foreign universities going forward in a
00:09:58
country like India how might they
00:10:00
contribute to this need for skilled
00:10:03
business leaders of course this will
00:10:04
take time what are your thoughts on that
00:10:06
I didn't that is what is driving this
00:10:09
this the two things that are driving it
00:10:10
if from economics point of view a good
00:10:13
economics that eighteen ninety thousand
00:10:16
people come here to this country to
00:10:17
study to the University of the US yeah
00:10:20
surely we can have the US universities
00:10:23
coming to India and doing the same thing
00:10:25
so there is an economic logic for that
00:10:27
second of course is to build a skill
00:10:29
base Indian India does not have other
00:10:32
than a few T's and ims does not have
00:10:34
good university structures and nothing
00:10:37
if these can catalyze good university
00:10:39
education that could be a great story
00:10:41
for India I think that's necessary is
00:10:43
needed we have taken too long debating
00:10:46
on this very narrow parochial
00:10:49
nationalistic view which I think an open
00:10:51
society in India has gone through the
00:10:53
debate I think the debate is over
00:10:55
clearly a lot more people want it to
00:10:57
happen there will be always naysayers
00:11:00
who would not want to see that happen
00:11:01
but I think this is
00:11:03
great idea and you are up to mistake
00:11:05
that it I think it'll go through yeah
00:11:06
there is no debate there is a consensus
00:11:08
behind it indeed any comparable comments
00:11:12
about china china has also done it some
00:11:16
of the universities have already tied up
00:11:18
with a lot of euro US universities a
00:11:20
european university so there they
00:11:22
understand the value these universities
00:11:23
bring they haven't yet fully opened it
00:11:26
up to have a complete University I think
00:11:29
some of the pedagogy is kind of
00:11:31
controlled right so but they have some
00:11:34
large arrangements with most of the
00:11:36
large US universities I see that all the
00:11:38
time so they have done the same thing
00:11:41
let's return for a moment to the
00:11:43
question of Chinese and Indian business
00:11:45
leaders I know we talked about the
00:11:47
future and what the gating factors might
00:11:51
be but do you see the very nature of the
00:11:56
requirements changing I know you
00:11:57
mentioned for instance growth has been a
00:12:00
top priority in Asia but either for
00:12:03
China or for India do you see any
00:12:07
different kinds of leadership challenges
00:12:09
coming up in the next few years let's
00:12:11
say the next 10 years or so will it be
00:12:15
more of the same no I think what we find
00:12:20
is that every five years the market
00:12:23
change substantially and either this
00:12:28
technical innovation or social societal
00:12:32
reorganization which throws up
00:12:33
challenges for organizations you know
00:12:36
sometimes the change is five years and I
00:12:38
was ten years seven but if we saw the
00:12:40
internet movie so before that every so
00:12:43
we are expecting something else will
00:12:44
happen as well so we are going to see
00:12:46
though even though coming even though
00:12:48
it's difficult it may not be in the
00:12:49
horizon yeah I mean you you have to be a
00:12:52
very big optimist to think that life
00:12:55
will remain as it is I mean the only
00:12:57
change change is the only constant as we
00:12:59
say especially in our business with
00:13:01
technology you can't even think of not
00:13:03
having change so I think we are all
00:13:06
anticipating change how ready we are
00:13:08
going to be all of us is going to be
00:13:09
different it'll that would determine the
00:13:11
victor no winners and losers really in
00:13:13
those
00:13:13
nations so there are going to be game
00:13:16
changers there will be people who are
00:13:18
going to come and kill your business we
00:13:19
are paranoid I mean Lee as Andy Grove
00:13:21
said you got to be paranoid to survive
00:13:24
returning to you again yourself as we
00:13:28
come to the toward the end of our very
00:13:31
enjoyable interview is there anything
00:13:35
that you can identify in your own
00:13:38
leadership style that is particularly
00:13:40
Indian or for that matter were you
00:13:43
influenced by being in China in a
00:13:45
certain way well certainly my growing up
00:13:50
years were in India you know it's kind
00:13:52
of steeped in Indian tradition and
00:13:55
mythology I think it it allows me to
00:13:59
really revel in the world of uncertainty
00:14:02
much better the world of uncertainty
00:14:05
making order out of what is commonly
00:14:09
seen by many as chaos I think our
00:14:13
mythology and the sum of our part of our
00:14:18
religious ethos is around that it is you
00:14:22
know the from the sublime to the
00:14:25
ridiculous if you can handle these two
00:14:27
ends of an issue you have this ability
00:14:31
to move without getting confused i think
00:14:34
india has taught me that in the
00:14:36
leadership style in china i have always
00:14:39
appreciated the level of order
00:14:42
orderliness and the confusion view which
00:14:46
goes around family respect for elders
00:14:49
order face from china can we bring the
00:14:54
two together to get the best out of
00:14:57
these two is really the challenge of
00:14:59
companies which are managing both
00:15:01
countries do you see that as desirable
00:15:05
trying to sort of create a take the best
00:15:08
of both and try to get soaked white
00:15:11
polar opposites as you they are very
00:15:13
different yeah one creates innovation
00:15:16
and ideas and the other creates a huge
00:15:18
powerful execution machine I remember
00:15:23
when the Chinese prime minister visited
00:15:24
TCS in bangalore and he said
00:15:26
you are good in software and we have
00:15:28
gotten hardware together two of us can
00:15:29
be leaders I remember he made that
00:15:31
statement in our Center in China in
00:15:32
bangalore and i think that's what it is
00:15:35
the software side of thinking clearly is
00:15:41
an indian strength and it comes out of
00:15:44
the seesaws of our backgrounds and the
00:15:47
execution capability of china is and
00:15:52
their ability to stink scale and big is
00:15:55
is advantage if you can combine the two
00:16:00
I think it's a can we combine the two is
00:16:02
the question I all very often think
00:16:04
about very interesting of course not
00:16:06
only do corporations need both I think
00:16:09
each country needs both so there is much
00:16:12
to learn in India from China and vice
00:16:16
versa oh yes oh yes both of them were
00:16:19
asking Lee learn from each other as I
00:16:21
always say we have been neighbors for
00:16:23
5,000 years we have given them some of
00:16:29
our their spiritual background to
00:16:31
Buddhism we have taken from them a lot
00:16:33
of things about innovation that they had
00:16:36
in the early parts of the history just
00:16:41
before the end I would tell you that in
00:16:44
my travels in China there was a one
00:16:48
incident that really stood out at which
00:16:51
I was talking with the Dean of a
00:16:54
prominent business school in Shanghai
00:16:56
and we were talking about the
00:16:59
possibility i introduced the possibility
00:17:01
of doing a three-vehicle aberration
00:17:04
between singapore and china and india
00:17:07
and after a pause my chinese host
00:17:11
returned to it and said something which
00:17:14
I found pretty astonishing and the
00:17:16
statement was Professor saying we in
00:17:21
China are deeply aware of the
00:17:23
civilizational contributions that India
00:17:27
has made to Chinese culture and society
00:17:29
and the point was he says we would be
00:17:34
very happy to cooperate in your travels
00:17:36
through China is this something that you
00:17:38
have noticed that
00:17:40
rather deep level there is a recognition
00:17:43
of India's contributions to china in the
00:17:48
past there is also a recognition that in
00:17:51
the contemporary present china is in
00:17:54
many fields ahead of india although in
00:17:56
some fields india does have the edge my
00:18:00
travels a lot of i have traveled the
00:18:01
length and breadth of china made a lot
00:18:03
of people government individual students
00:18:06
or employees one thing is very clear
00:18:11
nearly ninety nine percent of them would
00:18:14
have a huge respect for what they call
00:18:18
indian wisdom this has been the southern
00:18:22
neighbor and they have respected over
00:18:25
5,000 years there is no debate on this
00:18:28
issue and I I said the anonymity of this
00:18:31
issue indeed no that's as far as the
00:18:34
historic issues come up what I think
00:18:39
that has we translated into present
00:18:43
present no I think Indians are on the
00:18:46
other hand are a little wary of the
00:18:50
growth of China in terms of the scale
00:18:54
and size that they are so when we look
00:18:55
at I've let business delegations of
00:18:57
China as you say can we do something
00:18:59
Indian businesses is a scared of being
00:19:02
able to operate in China in the scale
00:19:04
and the competitive message I that is a
00:19:07
very competitive industry in markets
00:19:09
extremely competitive market very
00:19:10
entrepreneurial people so the Indian
00:19:13
businesses are scared of putting a foot
00:19:15
in there and I keep telling them you
00:19:17
want to do it the way we did it which is
00:19:19
built brick by brick there is no
00:19:21
shortcut so this is going to be a huge
00:19:23
marker of the future so they are scared
00:19:26
of the scale and size the China builds
00:19:28
and I give this example to everyone I
00:19:30
went on the ningbo bridge which is for
00:19:32
the shanghai expo they're built 28
00:19:35
kilometers over the over the sea over
00:19:37
learning sbobet in three years flat
00:19:39
six-lane highway it has taken us 15
00:19:43
years in Bombay to build a ceiling of
00:19:45
two and a half kilometers indeed I still
00:19:47
not done or still a fail hahahaha so
00:19:50
very interesting
00:19:52
is there anything else you would like to
00:19:55
add just an open-ended invitation to say
00:19:58
anything you want about the subject we
00:20:00
have been talking about I think we've
00:20:03
covered a lot of ground we've talked
00:20:04
about leadership we've talked about how
00:20:07
leadership's are developed a mentoring
00:20:09
we've talked about of course India and
00:20:11
China later baby see the coop titian
00:20:14
cooperating and competing we talked
00:20:18
about management style I think we live
00:20:20
in very exciting times sometimes in when
00:20:24
you are sitting in the West it looks a
00:20:26
little more slower than we see it in our
00:20:28
part of the world so we live in exciting
00:20:30
times we are the lucky continent as I
00:20:34
say to our people where growth is at
00:20:36
least underwritten now for the next few
00:20:38
years by the growth of these two charts
00:20:42
there is a very interesting picture
00:20:44
which defines the growth of Asia in the
00:20:48
Copenhagen seventh where you had the US
00:20:51
president dealing with the Indian Prime
00:20:53
Minister and the Chinese Prime Minister
00:20:55
as one photo the Brazilian President
00:20:57
there were just four of them doing the
00:21:00
Copenhagen deal very interesting that
00:21:04
was a world challenge that is how it was
00:21:08
may not be everyone's not happy with it
00:21:10
but I'm just saying to you that I think
00:21:13
the role of Asia is going to be critical
00:21:17
Asia are more mature economies in terms
00:21:20
of maturity of thought and leadership we
00:21:22
are learning a lot technology and
00:21:24
management styles from here a lot of our
00:21:27
people are trained here and it's a great
00:21:29
story so it's an exciting time for our
00:21:32
younger people in both countries because
00:21:35
they are going to see growth they
00:21:38
haven't seen too much of a recession as
00:21:40
yet but one day you will have cycles
00:21:43
there are business cycles which will be
00:21:45
the next challenge we can talk about you
00:21:48
Japan day thank you very much this has
00:21:50
been very enjoyable thank you very much
00:21:53
attended thank you for having me here
