00:00:00
Runners only with dime Harley
00:00:03
Runners only with Don Harvey and Dr Paul
00:00:08
wood g'day mate how are you you're good
00:00:10
good I am
00:00:12
the most educated person I was thinking
00:00:14
about you before you're probably the
00:00:15
baddest man I've had on the show and
00:00:18
also the most educated which is um quite
00:00:20
a quite a juxtaposition between yeah
00:00:23
isn't it those two things yeah I also
00:00:25
appreciate you having me on a show
00:00:27
called Runners only because my wife
00:00:28
would uh definitely roll her eyes at
00:00:31
that
00:00:32
I've never been known for Grace or
00:00:33
beauty or speed when it comes to running
00:00:35
Dom I do like it but there you go yeah
00:00:37
well yeah that's the first thing we need
00:00:39
to take off um I think everyone in New
00:00:41
Zealand has some sort of association
00:00:42
with running even if it's that they hate
00:00:43
it and it's um traumatizes them from
00:00:45
having to do the compulsory school
00:00:46
cross-country but what about you were
00:00:49
you are you doing you're running now
00:00:50
what are you doing you're a mountain
00:00:51
biker right no my wife's an elite
00:00:54
mountain biker so I do a little bit uh
00:00:57
but to be honest with you I running
00:00:58
would be my primary form of
00:01:01
cardiovascular activity these days
00:01:03
particularly trail running because I'm
00:01:04
Wellington based yeah and we're so
00:01:06
spoiled for just awesome trails in
00:01:09
nature so you know try to get out and do
00:01:11
that just recovering from a severely
00:01:13
sprained ankle from trail running
00:01:16
because as I mentioned I'm not known for
00:01:18
Grace or beauty but I like it you know I
00:01:20
don't enjoy it at the time but I like
00:01:21
doing hard things Dom yeah sense of
00:01:24
satisfaction
00:01:26
and yeah I think running is uh you know
00:01:29
there's lots of good lessons there in
00:01:30
terms of life in general right
00:01:32
oh completely I say to people all the
00:01:34
time it's um there's so many metaphors
00:01:35
like uh you know just put one foot in
00:01:38
front of the other things get tough but
00:01:39
if you just keep going one foot in front
00:01:41
of each other you will make it through
00:01:42
and you will make it to the finish line
00:01:43
or you'll make it to the next point
00:01:44
where things aren't so tough or you
00:01:46
don't feel as bad yeah exactly it's cool
00:01:48
I heard this really cool
00:01:50
um rule of thirds the other day from an
00:01:52
Olympic coach and the idea is you know
00:01:55
if you're into your sport let's say
00:01:57
running for example a third of the time
00:01:59
you'll feel good when you do it that's
00:02:01
third of the time you'll feel pretty
00:02:03
average and a third of the time you'll
00:02:05
be miserable and that's how it's
00:02:07
supposed to be it's not supposed to be
00:02:09
going to come and that's life gone yeah
00:02:11
oh completely could not agree more could
00:02:13
have been I feel like yeah happiness is
00:02:15
a state that everyone thinks they should
00:02:16
be in the entire time right yeah which
00:02:19
is just a terrible message because it
00:02:20
just sets you up for unmet expectations
00:02:23
and it sets you up for more misery and
00:02:25
suffering than required yeah I mean look
00:02:28
running let's use that metaphor you know
00:02:30
a real key I think success factor from
00:02:33
running for me is the ability to more
00:02:36
effectively make your way through misery
00:02:38
and suffering you know carry on even
00:02:41
though it's hard persevere and that's
00:02:45
what life's about it's about being able
00:02:46
to still pursue and do what matters
00:02:49
despite the misery and suffering because
00:02:51
there'll be lots of that yeah whatever
00:02:52
that looks like for you that probably
00:02:53
leads us nicely into into what's next um
00:02:55
you um more than well qualified to talk
00:02:58
about Misery and Safari because you've
00:03:01
had um one hell of a life and and I'm
00:03:04
guessing
00:03:05
well to put it bluntly like You're a
00:03:07
murderer you're a convicted murderer I I
00:03:10
told my girlfriend she said what are you
00:03:12
doing today and I said I'm doing a
00:03:13
podcast with this guy uh this guy is a
00:03:15
murderer I'm just invited him over to my
00:03:16
house by himself it's just gonna be us
00:03:18
there hopefully it goes well oh no
00:03:21
that's what she asked she said who else
00:03:22
is going to be there fair enough Brian
00:03:24
now like okay no but you're you're a guy
00:03:26
that has completely and utterly turned
00:03:28
your life around you made a terrible
00:03:29
mistake you paid your debt to society
00:03:31
and now as I mentioned before the most
00:03:33
educated person I think we've had on the
00:03:35
podcast but do you still feel this
00:03:38
people judging you in person are there
00:03:41
people that just won't let you of course
00:03:43
and mate that's fair enough if you're
00:03:46
someone whose life has been negatively
00:03:47
impacted by violent crime it is fair
00:03:50
enough that you continue to judge me
00:03:52
it's fair enough that you don't get past
00:03:55
my background you know
00:03:56
that's just the nature of these things
00:03:58
like I've been uh attacked many times in
00:04:01
my life in prison prior to prison all
00:04:03
that sort of stuff I know what it is to
00:04:05
be on the receiving end of violence and
00:04:07
it's fair enough you know that if you've
00:04:10
experienced anything like that or your
00:04:12
family's been negatively impacted by it
00:04:14
that you judge me and that you don't get
00:04:15
past that you know all I can do with my
00:04:18
lifetime I can't go back and rewrite
00:04:20
that stuff but I can demonstrate who I
00:04:23
am through my behavior today and I can
00:04:25
make sure that I'm in a position to
00:04:28
judge myself based on what's important
00:04:31
to me what my values are and and that
00:04:33
has to be the measure rather than
00:04:35
whether Everyone likes me that's tough
00:04:37
though because I want to be liked I'm a
00:04:38
socially needy person we all do we all
00:04:41
do I'm an approval junkie yeah oh my
00:04:43
gosh I don't know what I chose a career
00:04:45
like radio where you're judged by you
00:04:48
know ratings and stuff it's terrible
00:04:51
when you're like that how do you how do
00:04:52
you get by in prison because not
00:04:53
everyone's going to like you you know
00:04:55
it's an interesting one the way like
00:04:56
prisoners what would technically be
00:04:58
called an honor culture and an academic
00:05:01
culture is basically defined as a
00:05:03
culture where your sense of self-value
00:05:05
is heavily determined by other people's
00:05:07
perceptions of you and whether or not
00:05:09
other people respect you and so it's a
00:05:11
it's a culture where if anyone
00:05:14
demonstrates disrespect towards you any
00:05:17
perceived slight if you are a moral
00:05:20
upstanding member of the community and
00:05:21
remember morality is a subjective term
00:05:24
in this context right the right thing to
00:05:27
do in prison the moral thing to do is to
00:05:30
engage in aggressive behavior towards
00:05:32
anyone who slights you in any way any
00:05:34
perceived disrespect and if you don't
00:05:36
immediately dominate physically if you
00:05:38
can't beat the other person then the
00:05:40
correct Behavior according to the prison
00:05:42
code is to escalate the level of
00:05:44
violence to go and get a weapon until
00:05:46
you do dominate so actually you know the
00:05:49
way prison works is if you are
00:05:52
considered to be an upstanding member of
00:05:54
the community
00:05:55
if people openly don't like you then
00:05:58
that will resolve itself one way or
00:06:00
another either in your favor or against
00:06:02
it but it's a society where there is
00:06:05
hyper vigilance around perceptions of
00:06:08
other people's opinion of you and uh you
00:06:11
know it's one of the things I've had to
00:06:13
sort of come to grips with in my life
00:06:14
because I spent so much of my formative
00:06:15
life in the 18 to 29 yeah and before
00:06:18
that I'd lived a criminal lifestyle with
00:06:20
the same rules applied basically but not
00:06:22
as extreme you know for me now it's
00:06:25
still one of those things where I'm more
00:06:27
sensitive to perceptions of disrespect
00:06:30
that I think a normal person would be
00:06:33
however I've got good tools and good
00:06:36
ways of coping with that not being
00:06:38
derailed by it but I feel the same the
00:06:41
difference is I don't react aggressively
00:06:43
right so if someone at the Jetstar
00:06:44
counter you know makes this night
00:06:46
comment you're not going to stab them in
00:06:47
the neck with a toothbrush no no I'm not
00:06:51
absolutely not but you know again I'm
00:06:54
I'm sensing sort of that stuff and
00:06:56
that's part of my ongoing life Journey
00:06:57
it's funny Don because I got out of
00:06:59
prison
00:07:00
what year did you get out okay so it was
00:07:04
2006. okay so I assumed 10 years 10
00:07:08
months and two days to be exact I went
00:07:11
and I was arrested on New Year's Eve
00:07:13
1995
00:07:14
um turned into 96. I was then released
00:07:18
2006 the end of that and I tell you what
00:07:21
when I went under prison no one had cell
00:07:22
phones that just wasn't something that
00:07:24
you saw other than maybe a builder with
00:07:26
a big brick or something when I came out
00:07:29
of prison there was this thing called
00:07:30
the internet and everyone had cell
00:07:32
phones like I was there through quite a
00:07:34
big change in terms of how Society
00:07:36
operated and I got out and I was
00:07:38
educated I was two years into my doctor
00:07:40
and I'd really made positive changes in
00:07:42
my life and I thought I got out
00:07:45
relatively unscathed I thought I'd got
00:07:47
out relatively undamaged but then over
00:07:49
time you start to realize more and more
00:07:51
of the things that you still carry with
00:07:53
you that are just a natural consequence
00:07:56
of being such a habitual species you
00:07:58
know we adapt to whatever circumstances
00:08:00
we're in we develop habits that are
00:08:02
useful to us what do you mean what sort
00:08:03
of things you carry with you like um
00:08:05
just the hyper vigilance or 100 let me
00:08:07
give you an example right so
00:08:08
hypervigilance is often seen as a
00:08:10
symptom of post-traumatic stress
00:08:11
disorder and it is but hyper vigilance
00:08:14
is really functional for you when you're
00:08:16
in a dangerous environment so hyper
00:08:18
vigilance is just basically means being
00:08:21
way more sensitive to perceived threats
00:08:23
or potential threats than is normal and
00:08:26
hey mate if you're in a combat zone or
00:08:28
you're in a situation of domestic
00:08:29
violence or you're in prison that's
00:08:31
incredibly helpful for you to be hyper
00:08:34
Vigilant because you are genuinely in a
00:08:36
dangerous environment the trouble
00:08:38
becomes a course is when your brain gets
00:08:40
into these habits and then you're no
00:08:42
longer in that situation but you
00:08:44
continue to have that sort of level of
00:08:46
hyper vigilance and that's problem
00:08:48
dramatic for you okay so let's get way
00:08:51
back so you're in your Tech you're in
00:08:53
your teenage years you're a bit of a
00:08:55
[ __ ] I know just a normal a normal
00:08:57
teenager that's just dabbling in drugs
00:08:59
no no no no definitely not look you know
00:09:01
I mean I was actively involved in crime
00:09:05
from probably about the age of 12. uh
00:09:08
you know I hung out with people uh a
00:09:10
number of whom came from uh
00:09:13
intergenerational gang families you know
00:09:17
where criminality was normal one of the
00:09:19
things I always say to parents who are
00:09:21
worried about their teams is this the
00:09:23
most important indicator of how your
00:09:24
teams will behave is what gives them
00:09:27
respect in their peer group what's seen
00:09:29
and valued technical term for that is
00:09:31
the prestige economy prestigious like
00:09:34
Manna it's something other people give
00:09:36
you with a place of value on you based
00:09:38
on your skills your knowledge or your
00:09:39
behavior yes and the prestige economy
00:09:41
what's respected by your peers is what
00:09:44
will drive your behavior as a teenager
00:09:47
and for me you know the prestige economy
00:09:50
of my peers was stuff that's quite a bit
00:09:52
more extreme than normal teenage sort of
00:09:55
delinquent see you know I hang out with
00:09:58
people who committed burglaries who
00:10:02
stole cars we're street fighting in your
00:10:05
capacity for violence was the ultimate
00:10:07
in terms of what got you respected and
00:10:09
that was certainly my lens on it so that
00:10:12
was more the environment I grew up in it
00:10:14
but your your trajectory though like if
00:10:17
you looked at it you weren't you weren't
00:10:18
on track to be like a violent murderer
00:10:20
yeah no you were potentially going to
00:10:23
grow through this awkward 100
00:10:24
comfortable teenage phase and find
00:10:26
yourself yeah yeah and this is the thing
00:10:28
right like I went off the rails and that
00:10:30
explicitly implies that rails were laid
00:10:33
down in the first place love my parents
00:10:35
for example you know they they weren't
00:10:37
criminogenic it's the technical term
00:10:39
they were contributing tax paying
00:10:41
members of society in my teenage years
00:10:44
you must have been a worry for them well
00:10:47
to be honest with you I certainly was I
00:10:49
think a big thing though is that you
00:10:51
know my mum was terminally ill when I
00:10:53
was a teenager and that was what
00:10:55
occupied my dad's attention and her
00:10:58
attention as you can imagine you know
00:11:00
and they didn't know half of what I was
00:11:02
up to but also it was different times
00:11:04
where there was a lot more Independence
00:11:06
so do you do you think in a way with
00:11:08
that in mind like your dad
00:11:09
um you're nursing your mum or putting
00:11:11
his attention there and rightfully so do
00:11:12
you think you were like acting out for
00:11:13
attention in a way or just enjoying the
00:11:16
unlimited Freedom that you had that you
00:11:18
probably didn't deserve or warrant at
00:11:20
that age man combination of all the
00:11:22
above I mean for a start I was uh a
00:11:26
young man attracted to chaos I loved the
00:11:29
excitement I got a lot of a lot of young
00:11:31
guys 100 and that's why one of the
00:11:33
things you so need and it's not
00:11:35
exclusively guys but it's really common
00:11:37
with them and their behavior is often
00:11:39
more problematic because of testosterone
00:11:40
and testosterone makes you able to less
00:11:43
accurately gauge risk so you're more
00:11:46
likely to engage in a high-risk behavior
00:11:48
and you know you need a positive outlet
00:11:50
you need a positive direction for that
00:11:51
energy and I didn't really have one and
00:11:54
there were different points in my life
00:11:56
where that could have changed for
00:11:58
example the local community Constable
00:12:00
I'm Andrew Saunders who I really didn't
00:12:02
like at the time but who I now look back
00:12:04
on with real respect you know he was a
00:12:07
guy who tried to do a positive ancient
00:12:09
intervention for me and my mates by
00:12:10
creating a rugby league team in our area
00:12:12
for at-risk teams so myself and my mates
00:12:15
all got into this and rugby league's a
00:12:17
great game for getting out some physical
00:12:19
energy it's the closest thing you can
00:12:22
get to like a legal Street Fighter
00:12:23
that's right I'll tell you what in
00:12:24
prison there's something called crash
00:12:26
crashes the prison version of rugby
00:12:29
league and it's generally played on
00:12:31
concrete and it is used as an ultimate
00:12:34
opportunity for people to settle scores
00:12:36
with each other but also to demonstrate
00:12:39
your willingness not to back down and to
00:12:42
engage and uh let's say contact when I
00:12:45
was in B Block in primary which is the
00:12:47
toughest block I always made sure I
00:12:50
never missed a game a crash when one was
00:12:52
on because I wanted people to know I
00:12:54
wasn't scared and I'll tell you what was
00:12:57
I used to do up there at that point as
00:12:59
they used to play these games crash in
00:13:01
the gymnasium that each block would
00:13:03
periodically have access to and one of
00:13:06
the guards used to record it then it
00:13:07
used to get played over the prison
00:13:08
system so all of the blocks could see it
00:13:10
so you want to talk about pressure to
00:13:14
step up and not back down from a
00:13:16
reputational perspective it was the
00:13:18
ultimate and until what people I
00:13:19
remember going up there and I'd been
00:13:21
used to playing Crash on the concrete
00:13:23
and that when I was in the Wellington
00:13:24
person but up here was the first time I
00:13:26
saw people get tackled and drop weapons
00:13:29
and just pick them up and carry on and
00:13:32
knowing even better than Ireland so you
00:13:34
know people would be carrying Shanks and
00:13:36
that while they're playing it was
00:13:38
intense bro what's a shinks shank and
00:13:41
Sheriff are just homemade weapons in
00:13:44
prison so Shivers generally more like a
00:13:46
homemade knife or as a shank as a
00:13:48
broader sort of like set or collection
00:13:50
of weapons that might include things
00:13:52
that are more like ice picks which used
00:13:54
to be a big one up in in Perry Max
00:13:56
because the bars had this um growing on
00:13:59
them that you could work off over time
00:14:03
that would give you a sharp metal rod
00:14:04
that then people would sharpen on the
00:14:06
concrete and term into like an ice pick
00:14:08
to stab people with you're quite
00:14:10
Innovative oh bro 100 man 100 like it
00:14:13
when I when I you know one of the things
00:14:15
I do when I go and talk to people in
00:14:16
prison these days is I always try to
00:14:19
encourage them to think of the
00:14:20
generalizable skill set they already
00:14:22
have that they can take and use in a
00:14:25
more positive way that will stop them
00:14:27
ending up back in prison and will
00:14:29
actually result in Greater Financial
00:14:31
enumeration and not having to look over
00:14:33
their shoulders all the time and you
00:14:35
know there's a lot of creativity and
00:14:36
Innovation there's also a lot of
00:14:37
Entrepreneurship within prison like if I
00:14:40
go back and then I'm like how many of
00:14:42
you have dealt drugs before the vast
00:14:43
majority of people putting up their
00:14:45
hands right you've got small business
00:14:47
experience you understand supply and
00:14:49
demand yeah yeah you know you need to
00:14:51
take that skill set and apply it in
00:14:52
other areas where you wouldn't be back
00:14:54
here
00:14:55
but anyway so you know when I was a
00:14:58
teenager they set up this rugby league
00:14:59
team and to be honest with you it's not
00:15:02
that I'm I'm like a talented person but
00:15:04
I'm a hard worker Dom and when I played
00:15:07
rugby league you know I would just make
00:15:09
as many tackles as I could and I would
00:15:11
just tackle all day I was putting second
00:15:13
row in the forwards and I just tackle
00:15:15
tackle tackle and to be honest with you
00:15:16
something like rugby league could have
00:15:18
potentially been a vehicle for me yeah
00:15:20
because I'm quite a physical person I've
00:15:22
got a good work ethic and that and if we
00:15:24
had just had someone who had said to me
00:15:26
at that point hey this could be the
00:15:28
thing for you that could have been a
00:15:31
change in my life but instead you know
00:15:33
like one of the people involved in the
00:15:35
team was one of the local drug dealers
00:15:37
further reinforcement it was like missed
00:15:39
opportunities eh yeah and I had other
00:15:41
people in my life who you know wanted
00:15:44
the best but just didn't necessarily
00:15:45
have the skills to the tools of
00:15:47
interventions yeah so the the guy that
00:15:49
you um that you murdered uh your drug
00:15:52
dealer like a bad dude you know there'll
00:15:54
be a lot of people saying that go well
00:15:55
you know one less one less Baddie on the
00:15:58
street and there's other people that go
00:15:59
no a life is 100 bro but I was a bad
00:16:01
dude as well yeah had I been the person
00:16:04
who had died that day I would have never
00:16:05
had the chance and opportunity that I've
00:16:07
had to realize I was on the wrong path
00:16:09
yeah and to change my life and I took
00:16:11
this right now that bad dude still had
00:16:12
family he still had people who loved him
00:16:15
you know and the reality is is that you
00:16:18
know
00:16:19
people were complex in the world's messy
00:16:22
Dom yeah one of the things I've learned
00:16:23
through my experience of prison and
00:16:25
particularly having heaps to do with
00:16:26
gang members because that's so common in
00:16:28
prisons for people to be gang members
00:16:29
and that is that you know I truly
00:16:32
believe that the vast majority of people
00:16:34
just trying to do the best they can
00:16:36
based on what their understanding of
00:16:38
good looks like based on what they're
00:16:40
like I would say 100 well I mean look
00:16:42
there are there are some exceptions
00:16:43
there I've got to say look you know
00:16:45
people that you've made and yeah right
00:16:46
who are like genuine Psychopaths
00:16:49
but they're not normal bro they
00:16:52
literally have their brains a wired
00:16:54
differently and those are the exception
00:16:56
even in prison those people stand out as
00:16:58
unusual the vast majority of people in
00:17:01
prison they're not there because of
00:17:03
what's wrong with them they're there
00:17:05
because of what they've experienced and
00:17:07
what's happened to them and where that's
00:17:08
LED them in terms of their decision
00:17:11
making in terms of their coping skills
00:17:13
and there really is a path out and a
00:17:16
path back for people if they have the
00:17:18
right Insight supports and opportunity
00:17:20
yeah but you know like for me had I been
00:17:23
the person who died that night people
00:17:24
would have done to me exactly what they
00:17:26
did to you know Boyd who's my Victim and
00:17:28
their skull good riddance to bad rubbish
00:17:30
yeah you know one criminal kills another
00:17:32
no big loss there but as I said I've had
00:17:34
the chance to change my life and um it's
00:17:38
it's a tough one though because for many
00:17:39
years people including staff members
00:17:42
within the prison who knew my story
00:17:43
would say to me oh well hey I would have
00:17:45
done the same thing yeah which is I
00:17:48
suppose this reinforces
00:17:50
yeah yeah exactly not to take ownership
00:17:53
how long did how long did it take you
00:17:59
oh [ __ ] yeah because like at the early
00:18:02
stages of my sentence like I didn't go
00:18:03
in and see a light like the road to
00:18:06
Damascus right I didn't go in and see
00:18:07
the line change I win and then just
00:18:09
carried on doing what I had always done
00:18:11
in a more constrained environment you
00:18:14
know I did drugs I blamed everyone else
00:18:17
for my situation uh it was his fault it
00:18:20
was the polices fault it was my lawyer's
00:18:23
fault I didn't take ownership because
00:18:24
it's hard to take ownership bro it's
00:18:27
been a real journey for me and look you
00:18:29
know the reality is is that you know
00:18:32
still it's one of those things where you
00:18:34
have to really hold yourself to high
00:18:37
standards and high levels of
00:18:38
accountability because that's the only
00:18:40
path forward yeah the reality is is
00:18:42
while it's momentarily easier to feel
00:18:44
like you're the victim and by the way
00:18:46
don't get me wrong some people genuinely
00:18:48
are the victim in some circumstances but
00:18:50
it's easy to develop a victim mentality
00:18:53
where you don't take responsibility and
00:18:55
you blame others and it means you know
00:18:57
it's easier psychologically for that
00:18:59
moment but it is the least empowering
00:19:01
position you could possibly have Because
00:19:03
unless you take ownership of your past
00:19:05
Behavior then you really can't own the
00:19:08
idea that you are empowered to
00:19:10
positively impact on your future based
00:19:13
on the choices you make now no matter
00:19:15
how the situation is against you no
00:19:17
matter what bad luck you've had or what
00:19:19
other people's role might be if you
00:19:21
don't own that your decisions now can
00:19:23
positively impact your future then
00:19:25
you'll have a really disempowered life
00:19:26
why did it take you so long to get to
00:19:28
that point yeah part of it would have
00:19:30
been maturity part of it right so it
00:19:31
would have been range of reference man
00:19:33
you know it's like you only know what
00:19:35
you know yeah it's like an informed
00:19:37
Choice requires you to be aware of what
00:19:39
your options are if you don't know what
00:19:41
your options are you're not going to be
00:19:42
making the best choice for yourself it's
00:19:44
kind of like not having a sense of
00:19:46
direction you know when when you're in a
00:19:48
walker when you're on a boat if you
00:19:50
don't have a citizen Direction you just
00:19:51
go wherever the current's taking away
00:19:52
yeah but the reality is is that a lot of
00:19:54
people who are in prison who stay in
00:19:56
prison who re-offend all that sort of
00:19:58
stuff inhabit very small worlds
00:20:00
where they have a very limited
00:20:01
understanding of what life can be let me
00:20:04
give you an example right
00:20:05
when I go back into prisons I always say
00:20:07
to people if you think this is okay if
00:20:10
you think prison isn't too bad maybe
00:20:13
it's even good
00:20:14
that is a sure sign of how terrible your
00:20:16
life has been because by comparison you
00:20:19
think this is good trust me this isn't
00:20:21
good this is a terrible place to be this
00:20:25
is a terrible place to waste your
00:20:27
precious short life but a lot of people
00:20:29
think it's good because their comparison
00:20:32
is such dysfunction it's such misery
00:20:35
although reading reading your book which
00:20:37
is um your first book you're a double
00:20:39
published author how to escape from
00:20:41
prison the remarkable story of how one
00:20:43
man to fight the odds there are there
00:20:45
are times in there where
00:20:47
it sounds like having some fun days oh
00:20:49
yeah but you know again it's it's
00:20:51
whatever you're in favor what's your
00:20:53
comparison and it's like that's one of
00:20:55
the things about drug use as well and
00:20:57
you know like I did lots of drugs in
00:20:59
prison and you know anyone who's used
00:21:01
drugs will be able to relate to this
00:21:02
that drugs give you short-term immediate
00:21:05
pleasure they help you avoid you know
00:21:09
the challenge of whatever your situation
00:21:11
might be and so even in prison you know
00:21:14
drugs gave you relief from that stuff
00:21:16
the problem is though is that drugs
00:21:18
never address the underlying issues and
00:21:21
look hey lots of people take drugs
00:21:22
recreationally and that's all good
00:21:26
um you know I don't personally and
00:21:28
that's that's all good you know that's
00:21:29
just just life choices but
00:21:31
the problem is is that if you have life
00:21:36
stability issues for example you know if
00:21:39
you don't have a clear sense of purpose
00:21:40
or meaning or things to look forward to
00:21:42
in your future then why not just do
00:21:44
drugs more and more often because they
00:21:47
make you feel good momentarily right and
00:21:50
so they tell people get into trouble
00:21:51
right you know whereas you know in
00:21:53
prison oh my gosh it was definitely one
00:21:56
of those things I I would say um
00:21:59
you know for me I was really lucky that
00:22:02
I always had an accomplishment mindset
00:22:04
in my life I was always very driven to
00:22:06
try and Achieve things unfortunately
00:22:09
that energy wasn't positively focused in
00:22:11
the earlier years but it's something
00:22:13
that's really um helped me change
00:22:15
significantly in my later life because
00:22:18
I've just found a positive outlet for
00:22:20
that same energy that got me in so much
00:22:21
trouble
00:22:22
yeah had you been in jail is it like
00:22:24
before that first night when you were
00:22:26
arrested for murder had you been on a
00:22:27
holding cell oh yeah oh yeah I'd
00:22:29
definitely been arrested multiple times
00:22:31
okay so so you get arrested after you
00:22:33
murder this guy this guy Boyd but by
00:22:36
um having him with a baseball bat to the
00:22:38
point where it breaks you're high at
00:22:40
that time when do you start to become
00:22:42
aware of the magnitude oh man I was
00:22:45
aware of the magnitude you know
00:22:47
immediately after yeah you know like he
00:22:51
had attempted to attack me in my house
00:22:53
and I had gone far beyond what was
00:22:58
required of me in terms of self-defense
00:23:00
you know and I can see why you're angry
00:23:02
for like because yeah here he attacked
00:23:04
you you attacked him back you did go
00:23:06
overboard but why there wasn't even a
00:23:09
discussion of a man anyway it doesn't
00:23:10
matter doesn't matter what's going on
00:23:12
yeah I know you're not you're not
00:23:14
looking back in anger but yeah you got
00:23:16
down a raw [ __ ] hand for an 18 year
00:23:18
old well I mean you know anyway yeah I
00:23:22
don't want to get you started no no no
00:23:24
no no and I'm not by the bottom I mean
00:23:25
it was what it was I made all the
00:23:27
choices along the way that led me to the
00:23:29
situation and I I love the attitude
00:23:31
you've got now it's like one of the Navy
00:23:33
SEAL things as well it's like owning
00:23:34
your [ __ ] owning as much of any
00:23:36
situation as what you possibly can you
00:23:38
seem to like live by that ethos now I I
00:23:40
really try to but but man we're all
00:23:42
works in progress say you know like
00:23:45
again if you have an ethos if you have a
00:23:47
set of values if you have tenants to
00:23:49
live your life by it's way easier to
00:23:52
increase the likelihood that you'll be
00:23:54
moving in the direction of being the
00:23:56
person you really want to be but we're
00:23:58
all works in progress you know one thing
00:24:00
things I really learned from my
00:24:01
experience if I'm imprisonment and
00:24:03
trying to change is that the goal is
00:24:05
progress not Perfection the goal is
00:24:07
getting better rather than being good
00:24:09
all the time the problem is if you think
00:24:11
that you're supposed to achieve
00:24:12
Perfection or be good all the time in
00:24:14
terms of who you want to be as a person
00:24:15
then if you do fail to show up in that
00:24:18
way what you do is you can use that as
00:24:21
an excuse to go oh what the hell and
00:24:23
just engage in more bad behavior or to
00:24:26
just beat up on yourself rather than
00:24:28
recognizing that those failures those
00:24:30
are the real opportunities to learn and
00:24:33
grow in a way that enables you to get
00:24:35
better going forward and being who you
00:24:37
want to be I agree there's a lot of
00:24:39
power and mistakes obviously maybe not
00:24:40
not to the extreme that you took it to
00:24:42
yeah I think it was Mark Richards in the
00:24:44
New Zealand cricketer he didn't think of
00:24:46
the three ifs like um [ __ ] up fix it
00:24:49
forget about it yeah basically like just
00:24:51
make them you make a mistake that's life
00:24:53
acknowledge it and then sort of move on
00:24:55
from it I think if you're not making
00:24:57
mistakes you're not really living a full
00:24:58
life are you no well the thing is I mean
00:25:00
check this out right if you're not
00:25:02
making mistakes then you are not
00:25:04
engaging in growth and development as a
00:25:06
person because you're not going beyond
00:25:09
what you know you can succeed it and the
00:25:10
way forward is not only doing things you
00:25:13
know you can succeed at the way forward
00:25:15
is by getting out of your comfort zone
00:25:18
trying stuff out learning from your
00:25:21
failures so that you can become more
00:25:23
successful that is literally how you
00:25:25
grow and develop and I tell this right
00:25:27
now as a species we are all inherently
00:25:31
motivated by a sense of progress in the
00:25:34
areas of our life that matter to us the
00:25:37
pursuit of Mastery is what we talk about
00:25:39
in Psychology and hey look what people
00:25:41
are into look it's different things for
00:25:43
different people right for some people
00:25:45
it might be career aspirations for other
00:25:47
people it might be
00:25:48
being at more peace with themselves but
00:25:51
we all fundamentally have this need to
00:25:53
feel a sense of progress that we're
00:25:54
getting better at what matters to us
00:25:56
so if you live a safe life in terms of
00:25:59
never failing then you are not engaging
00:26:02
in progress and growth and you will have
00:26:04
a life of less meaning and satisfaction
00:26:07
than someone who actually fails but
00:26:10
fails and learns and recovers I think
00:26:13
the key for me is that you know I try my
00:26:16
best these days for my failures to not
00:26:18
negatively impact on other people any
00:26:20
more than they need to yeah that's a
00:26:22
good one you know it's interesting like
00:26:23
I was telling you how I caught up with
00:26:26
um you know uh my friend Richie hardcore
00:26:28
today and we're having a bit of a chat
00:26:29
about stuff and that and I was saying to
00:26:32
him you know like I don't regret
00:26:33
anything that I've been through in terms
00:26:35
of it making me who I am today the only
00:26:38
thing I regret about it is the damage
00:26:40
that was caused to other people yeah for
00:26:43
my learning to occur but I've had some
00:26:46
relatively hard times in my life you
00:26:49
know um compared to what a lot of people
00:26:50
have
00:26:51
but even then I still consider myself
00:26:53
blessed compared to what some people go
00:26:56
through people I know and have come
00:26:58
across so it's all relative a so so the
00:27:01
the incident happened on New Year's Eve
00:27:02
and your mum died three days before that
00:27:04
so you had Christmas your mum died then
00:27:06
this happens so you you weren't able to
00:27:08
go to the funeral no
00:27:10
no
00:27:11
um no and and I'll tell you it was an
00:27:13
interesting thing eh because uh grief as
00:27:17
such uh an interesting and individual
00:27:21
process you know like there are the
00:27:23
stages of grief that people talk about
00:27:25
and and that's interesting the rest of
00:27:27
it but grief is something where we all
00:27:30
have our own journey in that respect
00:27:32
yeah and and things can surprise you at
00:27:35
different points you know and you just
00:27:36
got to sort of like accept whatever your
00:27:38
journey is but I never really had the
00:27:39
opportunity to properly grieve I suppose
00:27:42
you were dealing with your own new
00:27:43
surrounds your own new reality 100 but
00:27:46
also as well you know like oh
00:27:49
it was interesting I like I remember
00:27:51
early on in my sentence
00:27:53
maybe a year and having the stream of
00:27:56
like my mum coming to see me like
00:27:59
visiting me and telling me I was on the
00:28:00
wrong path
00:28:02
and and you know been really impacted by
00:28:03
that my mum was a really nice person
00:28:06
definitely the nicest person in my life
00:28:08
growing up in that
00:28:11
um and yeah and yeah it really it was
00:28:15
not until I was about
00:28:17
nine and a half years into my sentence
00:28:20
that I was able to get permission to
00:28:21
have any score to leave to go and visit
00:28:24
my mum's grave right and then the
00:28:27
Journey of of trying to grieve more
00:28:29
effectively has been an ongoing one
00:28:31
since then and you know I look I I still
00:28:34
definitely agree for I think anyone
00:28:35
who's lost a parent understands how hard
00:28:37
it is I swear I suppose I wonder if um
00:28:40
that's part of you like your driving
00:28:41
force now like to make her proud with
00:28:42
what you do I tell you what the most the
00:28:45
thing that impacts me most I reckon is
00:28:47
when I speak at conference and I do
00:28:48
heaps of speaking about different you
00:28:50
know things but always using sort of my
00:28:52
own experiences none depending sort of
00:28:54
like story to communicate important
00:28:56
ideas but when people come up to me and
00:28:59
say to me oh your mum would be proud of
00:29:01
you oh my gosh that's the thing that I
00:29:04
think has the biggest impact on me
00:29:06
emotionally I wouldn't say it's
00:29:08
something that's at the front of my mind
00:29:10
as a conscious driver but I definitely
00:29:13
live my life for I think you know as
00:29:16
long as I'm done doing stuff where she
00:29:18
would be proud then I'm probably on the
00:29:20
right track yeah and what about your dad
00:29:22
is he still around oh yes fantastic he's
00:29:25
um
00:29:26
86 still around still active still
00:29:29
constantly doing manual labor around his
00:29:31
property and that yeah I mean you read
00:29:33
your book he he was there constant
00:29:35
visits never gave out on you well I mean
00:29:37
he was the person who paid for my study
00:29:39
out of his pension so I could study I
00:29:41
mean at that point you couldn't get
00:29:42
student loans or anything in prison I
00:29:44
literally wouldn't have been able to
00:29:46
study if it wasn't for him
00:29:47
and I only really get how hard it must
00:29:50
have been for him now my parent myself
00:29:51
and understand how much you love your
00:29:53
kids and don't want them to suffer I
00:29:55
mean in the early years he'd often come
00:29:57
and visit me and I'd be a non-contact
00:29:59
visits
00:30:00
glass perspex glass because you're too
00:30:03
high security for physical contact with
00:30:05
civilians
00:30:06
and you know like I'd get I'd black eyes
00:30:09
stuff like that when I was in prison and
00:30:11
he'd come to those visits and then he'd
00:30:13
obviously have to walk away from those
00:30:14
known there was nothing he could do to
00:30:15
change my circumstances and there was no
00:30:18
end in sight to the storm I mean my God
00:30:20
it must have been hard for him yeah
00:30:21
that's one thing I wanted to ask you so
00:30:23
um so so you get arrested on the New
00:30:25
Year's Eve and then um you know you
00:30:27
you'll be worlded you're dealing with
00:30:28
the stuff but then that settles down and
00:30:30
you're on remand then there's the trial
00:30:32
and that's when you find out the next 10
00:30:35
years from like 19 to 29 or whatever is
00:30:38
and bear in mind so you're 19 years old
00:30:41
so this is like 50 of your life to date
00:30:43
yeah so what seems like a [ __ ] long
00:30:46
time well the thing is you you can't eat
00:30:49
you haven't at that age so I went into
00:30:51
18 right and then I by the time I was in
00:30:53
since I was 19. yeah but I always knew
00:30:55
that there was a liking sentence even
00:30:57
from 18 and at that age when you're a
00:30:59
teenager you haven't had enough enough
00:31:00
life experience to contextualize what 10
00:31:03
years is do you think so I would have
00:31:05
thought it'd be the opposite
00:31:07
when I was reading your book I remember
00:31:09
I remember being like 18 or 19 and if I
00:31:11
met someone that was 30 like when you
00:31:13
you were when you came out I thought
00:31:14
they were [ __ ] old yeah exactly
00:31:15
that's what I mean though so like I'm 45
00:31:17
now if you said to me 10 years I've had
00:31:19
enough life experience to go okay I know
00:31:21
what 10 years feels like as an adult I
00:31:24
know how quick that can go and that
00:31:26
you've got all this life eating but as a
00:31:28
teenager 10 years is forever being 30 is
00:31:30
unimaginable unimaginable and so for me
00:31:33
you know I was just like there was
00:31:35
literally a point after I've been since
00:31:36
I was just like right this is my new
00:31:38
life this is it I gotta I've just got to
00:31:40
forget about the outside world I've just
00:31:43
got to focus on this and you know I
00:31:45
think everyone goes through the
00:31:47
consideration of whether or not to kill
00:31:48
themselves from those circumstances I
00:31:51
think that's a very normal thing to
00:31:53
consider and lots of people in prison do
00:31:55
yeah you know it's it's a
00:31:57
disproportionate problem within the
00:31:58
prison of our age you can well imagine
00:32:00
oh that's understandable it's a very
00:32:01
hard environment what keeps you going
00:32:04
especially in the other thing after you
00:32:06
get sentenced in those early days where
00:32:07
you think okay the next 10 birthdays at
00:32:09
least next 10 Christmases yeah three
00:32:12
thousand four thousand days 120 months
00:32:14
that's 10 years eh you know I suppose
00:32:18
just never had it and you just never had
00:32:20
that well no I think we all have it in
00:32:22
us to be honest in some respect but I
00:32:25
think you know maybe I still had stuff
00:32:28
to look forward to that kept me going
00:32:30
because I wasn't putting stuff like
00:32:32
getting drugs like getting drugs but
00:32:35
also as well in the early years I had
00:32:36
aspirations to escape and that kept me
00:32:38
going as well you know like if you look
00:32:40
at the photo on the back of that book
00:32:42
how to escape from prison right that's a
00:32:43
mug shot that was taken when I was 18
00:32:46
and
00:32:48
that was the first photo that took me in
00:32:50
prison these days it's all you know
00:32:51
high-tech digital digital photos that
00:32:54
was the first mug shot taken of me and
00:32:56
if you have a look at the back of it
00:32:57
have a look at how tall it says I am on
00:32:59
that 190 180 centimeters okay so I'm
00:33:02
about 186 right but when that photo was
00:33:05
taken I was thinking of Escape so I
00:33:06
deliberately shrunk behind the wall a
00:33:08
little bit so when they were looking for
00:33:10
me and giving description of me they'll
00:33:12
be looking for someone
00:33:13
so I was very much geared towards Escape
00:33:16
in those early years and and the
00:33:17
prospect of Escape gave me hope to be
00:33:20
honest Dom okay because it gave me
00:33:21
something to focus and look forward to
00:33:23
and there were situations like there was
00:33:25
one situation where I very nearly
00:33:27
escaped and I'm very glad that I didn't
00:33:29
and that I chose not to follow through
00:33:32
um but to be honest with you by the time
00:33:34
Escape came easy I was far enough into
00:33:36
my sentence where I had started to have
00:33:39
other interests like education and other
00:33:41
things that stopped me from doing it and
00:33:43
I'd reached a level of maturity as well
00:33:45
where
00:33:46
you know I I had more more perspective
00:33:49
and and more long-term thinking you
00:33:52
asked why it took me so long as well to
00:33:53
sort of change when I was in prison part
00:33:55
of it was just my age you know like the
00:33:57
party of growing up yeah part of your
00:33:59
brain responsible for evaluating
00:34:00
consequences you know long-term decision
00:34:03
making impulse control and all of that
00:34:05
is your prefrontal cortex and for males
00:34:07
it doesn't finish developing until your
00:34:09
mid-20s so I literally didn't have the
00:34:12
neurological capacity for that kind of
00:34:14
stuff until I was a bit older and also
00:34:17
as well you know I was just living my
00:34:19
life according to what my previous
00:34:20
experience had been and when I did
00:34:23
started to educate myself man it wasn't
00:34:25
with any great aspirations or for any
00:34:27
Noble reason you know I started studying
00:34:30
psychology because I thought that would
00:34:32
be really useful for being more
00:34:34
effective as a criminal and also as well
00:34:37
and this is just me being honest with
00:34:38
you right yeah but also as well
00:34:41
for avoiding the attacks of other people
00:34:43
in prison they've been better at mind
00:34:45
reading so when I was an and Perry and
00:34:48
maximum security when I was 20. I
00:34:50
thought okay well when I get out of
00:34:51
prison when that eventually happens you
00:34:53
know I'll import drugs that'll be what I
00:34:55
do because you know that's a viable
00:34:57
career choice for me I can't do anything
00:35:00
that's not criminal because my
00:35:02
imprisonment my criminal record will
00:35:04
count against me forever so I'll do this
00:35:07
this is what I'll do you know I think
00:35:09
one of the most important things that
00:35:11
education did for me is it made me aware
00:35:13
of the other options available to me the
00:35:15
original word for educate means to lead
00:35:16
out of to lead out of the darkness of
00:35:18
your own ignorance that's what it did
00:35:19
for me and to be honest with you one of
00:35:21
the most important things I do for other
00:35:22
people in prison today
00:35:24
is I provide a reference point for them
00:35:27
where they can look at me and go there's
00:35:29
someone who's a convicted murderer I
00:35:32
hate even saying that Dom I hated
00:35:33
hearing you it's just the nature it's a
00:35:35
heavy thing eh but that's the reality of
00:35:38
of my past
00:35:40
and they can point to me and go even
00:35:42
though people know that about them he is
00:35:44
an accepted member within Society not
00:35:47
everyone may like me Don but I live a
00:35:48
good functional life where I am a
00:35:51
contributing member of society and that
00:35:53
is important for giving other people
00:35:54
hope that it's worth trying to change
00:35:56
absolutely and as you know now that like
00:35:59
the money you can make on the corporate
00:36:00
circuit better than being a drug dealer
00:36:02
100 you know and I mean the thing is as
00:36:05
well and there's no there's no risk of
00:36:08
imprisonment associated with that either
00:36:10
because if you look at what people
00:36:11
actually make in terms of the length of
00:36:14
time they spend in prison for
00:36:15
involvement with drugs it just doesn't
00:36:16
work out when I go to prison I always
00:36:18
say to people hey look you know if
00:36:19
you've had this experience of small
00:36:21
business there's stuff you can do where
00:36:23
you'll make more money than this
00:36:24
literally have to deal with it yeah I
00:36:26
mean let me I I tell you what when it's
00:36:29
talking about speaking right so I do a
00:36:30
lot of speaking one of my favorite
00:36:32
contrasts I've had Dom as I did this
00:36:35
this corporate speaking engagement at
00:36:37
the Royal Yacht Club down the road from
00:36:39
here and it was for a real estate
00:36:42
company a very high-end and the amount
00:36:45
of Rolexes in that room mate
00:36:47
unbelievable every type you can think of
00:36:49
right the next day I'm going into the
00:36:53
prison environment to talk to people in
00:36:55
there about one of the programs I'm
00:36:57
involved in and to you know encourage
00:36:58
people to sign up and go along
00:37:00
and I end up going into a high security
00:37:05
non-compliant block so this is basically
00:37:08
the prison within the prison where
00:37:09
people end up here when they get kicked
00:37:11
out of other parts of the prison worse
00:37:12
to the worst worse of the worst
00:37:13
non-compliance right and I go in there
00:37:16
and the staff member who's in charge of
00:37:17
it goes look we can't have people
00:37:19
unlocked while you're in here because
00:37:21
it's too big a risk of security breaches
00:37:25
in terms of intergang rivalry but also
00:37:27
hostage situations we never have more
00:37:29
than four people unlocked at a time and
00:37:31
we can't have them unlocked when you're
00:37:33
around so look I'm not really sure we
00:37:35
can do this but after a bit of
00:37:37
negotiation and a bit of chat what they
00:37:39
decide is they agreed that okay well
00:37:41
what they would do is they'd have
00:37:42
everyone locked up but they would open
00:37:44
their meal slots and theirselves and
00:37:46
your meal slots about halfway down the
00:37:48
door and that way people can put their
00:37:50
ears to the meal slot and listen to you
00:37:52
while you stand in the middle of this
00:37:54
block and just yell if you want to do
00:37:57
that it really had to like read a room
00:37:59
and engage how you're doing
00:38:02
hey look I don't know how this is gonna
00:38:05
go I think to be honest people will
00:38:06
shout you down and that it's a
00:38:08
non-compliant blockage you know
00:38:10
and I said okay well look I can't find
00:38:12
this I really want to give it a go but
00:38:14
also as well man I've been a Mexican
00:38:16
security person and and when you're in
00:38:17
Mexican security person you are always
00:38:19
treated as a risk to be mitigated and
00:38:22
you've earned that right through your
00:38:23
previous bad behavior but I also know
00:38:26
from personal experience how powerful it
00:38:29
is to have someone treat you as a normal
00:38:32
human being and to give you expectations
00:38:34
to live up to that was some of the most
00:38:36
seminal moments for me in my prison
00:38:37
experiences having people treat me with
00:38:40
respect and with expectations that I was
00:38:43
a normal person and so what I did is I
00:38:45
said look okay we'll do this but before
00:38:48
I speak
00:38:49
is it okay if I go around all the cells
00:38:51
and say hello to everyone
00:38:53
because what I want to do Dom is I want
00:38:56
to make sure that people know that I'm
00:38:58
treating them as a human being that I
00:39:01
respect them and that I accept them and
00:39:03
I want to connect with them on an
00:39:04
individual level before I speak to them
00:39:06
as a group by yelling why they're at
00:39:08
their meal slots yeah and a bit socially
00:39:10
immediately there's a little certain
00:39:12
level of respect knowing what you've
00:39:13
been through and that you've come out
00:39:14
the other way yeah it's true but also
00:39:16
not everyone's going to know who I am or
00:39:17
anything about me there you know again
00:39:20
people inhabit these small worlds and so
00:39:22
this is standard operating procedure
00:39:24
right you never put your hand inside a
00:39:27
meal slot right because then you're at
00:39:31
the mercy of the prisoner who can just
00:39:33
grab your arm break your arm very easily
00:39:35
but what I think to myself is
00:39:38
I'm gonna give everyone expectations to
00:39:40
live up to here so what I do is I walk
00:39:43
up to the food there's a lot of trust
00:39:45
well I'll tell you what it is I know I'm
00:39:48
engaging in Risk but I also know that
00:39:50
this might be one of the most powerful
00:39:51
experiences that someone in this
00:39:53
situation has in terms of people
00:39:55
treating them as a human being and
00:39:57
giving them expectations to love up to a
00:39:59
lot of them have never experienced that
00:40:01
level of Trust on and you can't expect
00:40:03
people to learn to be independent
00:40:05
functioning members of society if you
00:40:07
don't give them opportunities to stuff
00:40:09
up if you don't give them a little bit
00:40:12
of trust yeah and so I walk up to this
00:40:14
first cell and I'm like oh my gosh okay
00:40:16
here we go and the first cell is this uh
00:40:19
gang member with full facial gang tattoo
00:40:21
Jose
00:40:22
and I walk up to the cell and I
00:40:24
immediately go hey my bro shove my hand
00:40:26
in the meal slot right and shake hands
00:40:29
with them and here's the funniest thing
00:40:31
within the first like five seconds he
00:40:33
goes hey and then straight away he does
00:40:36
the ultimate prison thing to do which is
00:40:37
to go
00:40:38
hey Chuck your shoes in here give me
00:40:41
your shoes
00:40:46
the ultimate prison thing to do because
00:40:47
shoes are the only things that you can
00:40:50
get which are personalized right prison
00:40:52
uniforms and everything else and it's
00:40:54
just what were your shoes bro some Nikes
00:40:57
I couldn't see them though until yeah
00:40:59
okay yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah but even
00:41:00
then if it could it wouldn't have
00:41:02
mattered right you know but he's like
00:41:04
immediately I Chuck your shoes in there
00:41:06
and I just cracked up laughing and said
00:41:09
no chance of that bro and then I kid you
00:41:13
not within 10 seconds he's immediately
00:41:14
onto this oh hey you know what it's like
00:41:16
to be in here hey um can you give me an
00:41:19
address on the outside that I can send
00:41:21
to get a stash sent to that you can
00:41:22
bring in this is within like the next 10
00:41:25
seconds
00:41:26
and I just laughed and just said to the
00:41:30
sky bro you got so much hustle if you
00:41:34
use the same amount of energy and hustle
00:41:36
towards something legal you wouldn't be
00:41:38
sitting in here and you would be cashed
00:41:40
up yeah and he thought that was
00:41:42
hilarious and I went around every cell
00:41:46
and shoved my hand and said g'day to
00:41:48
people and no one abused their trust and
00:41:51
people were so appreciative of the
00:41:53
effort that was made there Dom yeah and
00:41:56
then after that you know I went and
00:41:57
spoke in the middle of the block but the
00:41:59
contrast between those two audiences the
00:42:02
Rolexes at the Royal Yacht Club versus
00:42:04
the non-compliant prisoners and high
00:42:06
security you know couldn't be more
00:42:08
different but bro we are all people hey
00:42:11
absolutely you know the struggle's real
00:42:13
I don't care what your life looks like I
00:42:15
don't care how big your TV is how
00:42:17
attractive your partner is you know how
00:42:21
how flash your car is or anything we all
00:42:23
experience misery and suffering eh yeah
00:42:26
and I think that's a really useful thing
00:42:28
to know absolutely yeah and have a bit
00:42:30
of compassion 100 yeah but also as well
00:42:33
a bit of bloody self-acceptance it's
00:42:35
like what we're talking about earlier
00:42:37
it's not all going to be infinity pools
00:42:39
and mocktails can't read what the
00:42:41
Instagram influencers would have you
00:42:43
believe your life well contain
00:42:47
challenges that will contain struggle it
00:42:49
will contain misery and suffering part
00:42:51
of the journey is getting better at
00:42:53
making your way through that while
00:42:55
accepting that it's not always going to
00:42:57
be easy you know you're talking about
00:42:59
the Navy Seals earlier I love their
00:43:00
motto which is you know the only easy
00:43:02
day was yesterday you know there's a
00:43:05
there's a lot of wisdom in that yeah and
00:43:07
you know we really want to savor the
00:43:09
periods in our life when things are
00:43:10
going well we really want to be grateful
00:43:13
for the things that are good in our
00:43:14
lives because there will be so many
00:43:16
slings and arrows that come our way that
00:43:19
we want to appreciate times when they're
00:43:20
good and appreciate the things that
00:43:22
actually are 100 like you can't
00:43:24
appreciate you you talked before about
00:43:26
um mocktails and infinity pools unless
00:43:28
you've got something to compare that to
00:43:30
then that becomes the normal and it's
00:43:33
not something that's flash anymore yeah
00:43:34
yeah and I mean that's the thing I like
00:43:36
it's all about your benchmark so you
00:43:39
know from that second book I wrote as
00:43:41
you know like had the distinct pleasure
00:43:43
of getting to do some uh work and
00:43:45
observe the New Zealand they say it's an
00:43:47
action there and some of their trains
00:43:49
that's the the mental Fitness book yeah
00:43:50
yeah one of the key things is about you
00:43:53
know mental toughness that's what you're
00:43:54
trying to develop yeah like what they
00:43:56
use in the Defense Force particularly in
00:43:58
the Special Forces is called stress
00:43:59
exposure training it's exactly like
00:44:01
running mate the idea is you expose
00:44:04
yourself to incremental increases and
00:44:07
stress in order to build your capacity
00:44:10
to cope with future demands and
00:44:12
challenges that's how you get physically
00:44:13
further that's how you get mentally for
00:44:15
that you don't get physically fitter by
00:44:17
sitting on the couch you don't get more
00:44:19
mentally tough and resilient by not
00:44:21
going out and putting yourself under
00:44:22
stress and pressure the key thing is to
00:44:25
do it to the right amount and then have
00:44:26
recovery right so you don't damage
00:44:28
yourself and one of the things we talk
00:44:30
about in mental toughness and psychology
00:44:31
is that your ability to cope with
00:44:34
current misery and suffering depends
00:44:36
upon your previous Benchmark so if I go
00:44:39
and do a half marathon I've run a
00:44:41
marathon before so I know the half isn't
00:44:43
as bad as the hole that I've run do you
00:44:45
see how those this works absolutely and
00:44:47
and that's what you do and so for me you
00:44:50
know my experience of imprisonment
00:44:52
leaves me eternally grateful for how
00:44:54
good my life is now but this is also
00:44:57
something we have to watch out for
00:44:58
because we're so habit forming as a
00:45:00
species it's really as easy to adapt to
00:45:03
whatever your circumstances are and to
00:45:04
start to take them for granted and I've
00:45:06
gone through periods like that after
00:45:08
being imprisoned but these days I'm very
00:45:11
conscious what do you mean by that
00:45:12
exactly well what I mean is you know if
00:45:15
if you have a life where things improve
00:45:17
for you like I talk about this in my
00:45:19
book it's called the hedonic treadmill
00:45:20
was the technical name for it but
00:45:22
basically what it refers to is this
00:45:23
whatever our circumstances are how much
00:45:26
however much they improve or however
00:45:28
much they diminish
00:45:29
very quickly we get used to that and we
00:45:32
return to whatever our prior level of
00:45:35
sort of like happiness and well-being
00:45:36
was if you win a lottery within six
00:45:40
months to a year you'll be back to where
00:45:41
you were before in terms of your
00:45:43
standard level right and well-being if
00:45:46
you become a paraplegic the same is true
00:45:48
there's good research around this you
00:45:50
know so one of the things that we need
00:45:52
to do is we need to be really conscious
00:45:53
and deliberate about cultivating the
00:45:55
mindset and practicing the habits that
00:45:59
actually continue to boost and improve
00:46:02
yeah you know our level of happiness and
00:46:04
our levels of well-being and one of the
00:46:07
things that's really important is really
00:46:09
consciously and deliberately focusing on
00:46:11
the things that are good in all your
00:46:13
life that you can be grateful for it's
00:46:15
really interesting like if you talk
00:46:16
about neurotransmitters you know which
00:46:18
are just the electrochemicals that our
00:46:21
brain uses to communicate with itself
00:46:22
there are two primary ones that relate
00:46:24
to well-being there's dopamine which is
00:46:27
about happiness with what you can get
00:46:29
it's about mood motivation and movement
00:46:31
but happiness with what you can get is
00:46:33
the key thing to think about it's goal
00:46:35
focused right whereas serotonin is about
00:46:38
happiness with what you have yeah now
00:46:40
all of us have both of those if we have
00:46:42
normally functioning brains but you have
00:46:44
some people who are more dominant
00:46:45
towards one or the other serotonin
00:46:48
dominant people are those sort of more
00:46:49
chill relaxed people who are just really
00:46:52
good at appreciating things how they are
00:46:54
but perhaps lack a little drive and
00:46:56
ambition right whereas dopamine dominant
00:46:59
people are more those what's next what's
00:47:01
next what's the goal push myself kind of
00:47:04
people and you know they get heaps done
00:47:06
but the risk for them is that they rush
00:47:08
through their life pursuing the next
00:47:10
goal never appreciate the journey and
00:47:11
then they're dead and they're really
00:47:13
intense for other people to be around
00:47:15
because it's kind of like great it's the
00:47:16
weekend time to relax what's my task
00:47:18
list for the weekend you know whereas
00:47:20
one of the things we know from the
00:47:21
research is if you want to boost your
00:47:23
general levels of Serotonin your general
00:47:25
levels of happiness with your life
00:47:28
and how how things are at the moment and
00:47:30
appreciate the journey along the way you
00:47:32
know the most evidence-based approach to
00:47:34
do that is to cultivate a deliberate
00:47:36
sense of gratitude and that's where you
00:47:38
you focus on hey what are the things I'm
00:47:40
grateful for now check this out the
00:47:43
research out of Harvard suggests if you
00:47:44
practice a gratitude diary otherwise
00:47:46
known as the three good things this is
00:47:47
where you go once every 24 hours you go
00:47:49
what are three small and different
00:47:50
things I'm grateful for for the last 24
00:47:52
hours within 21 days you will notice a
00:47:54
significant increase in your general
00:47:56
sense of happiness and well-being but
00:47:58
guess what this is even more useful for
00:48:00
dopamine dominant people who are more
00:48:02
likely to be focused on the next thing
00:48:04
because it boosts that well-being to
00:48:06
compensate for the drive towards
00:48:09
achievement that they otherwise have
00:48:11
they don't lose that but it builds that
00:48:13
General well-being in the meantime
00:48:15
happiness for what you have but check
00:48:16
this out as well most people who try the
00:48:18
stuff out quit way before the 21 days
00:48:20
and the reason they do is they go well
00:48:23
what are three three things I'm grateful
00:48:24
for well I'm grateful for that coffee I
00:48:26
got before coming and I'm grateful for
00:48:28
your dog and its awesome name I'm
00:48:31
grateful for this conversation and then
00:48:32
they go well I don't feel massively
00:48:34
uplifted when I do this I'll stop doing
00:48:36
it but what they fail to realize is it's
00:48:38
like jogging Dom what you do today isn't
00:48:41
about immediate returns it's about
00:48:42
investigating
00:48:44
exactly it also forces you to forces you
00:48:47
to think about those things that
00:48:48
otherwise you may not there's a saying I
00:48:50
really like it's that um comparison is
00:48:51
the theft of joy and I believe it but
00:48:53
that's only if you and this is I never
00:48:55
really thought of this until I read your
00:48:57
book but you talk about comparing down
00:48:58
yeah which is something you got from the
00:49:00
Victor Frankel book man search for me
00:49:01
it's a fabulous book and and it is it's
00:49:03
like and I suppose like comparing down
00:49:06
as much like gratitude it's just 100
00:49:08
think about how worse things could be
00:49:10
yeah exactly and it's not for everyone
00:49:12
either comparing down if you're really
00:49:13
already prone to anxiety and depression
00:49:15
if you start comparing down and going oh
00:49:17
how much worse could things be then you
00:49:18
might start obsessing about that
00:49:20
worrying about it yeah that's true it's
00:49:21
really good for me because then I I'm
00:49:23
always like well things can be worse but
00:49:26
when you okay but how do you how do you
00:49:28
compare down when you've just been
00:49:30
sentenced to life mate there's so many
00:49:32
more worse things than that let me give
00:49:34
you an example I don't do workshops
00:49:36
around the stuff and I remember a woman
00:49:37
after we'd been talking about this
00:49:38
coming to me during the morning tea
00:49:39
break and telling me she'd just been
00:49:41
diagnosed as being terminally ill but
00:49:43
she really agreed with this because
00:49:44
she's got six months to a year to live
00:49:46
at this point and she's really grateful
00:49:48
that she knows so she has the
00:49:50
opportunity to prioritize spending time
00:49:52
with people who matter to it if that can
00:49:54
be the attitude you have when you are
00:49:55
terminally ill then man I got no
00:49:58
complaints about spending some time in
00:49:59
prison you know I mean there is always
00:50:02
people who who are worse off than you
00:50:04
there is always a situation it could be
00:50:06
worse than the current one you're in and
00:50:08
I just want to just close the loop on
00:50:10
that three good things thing as well and
00:50:12
you know again the idea is not that
00:50:15
after 21 days you start to feel
00:50:16
massively uplifted when you recount
00:50:18
these things but just you shift your
00:50:20
brain's radar so you start to notice
00:50:22
more of those things as they happen in
00:50:23
the day whereas previously you wouldn't
00:50:25
have paid attention to them and when you
00:50:27
notice them boom boom that's when the
00:50:29
serotonin goes off in your brain you
00:50:31
know you're retraining your brain to
00:50:33
notice the good stuff because we've
00:50:35
evolved as a species to pay a lot more
00:50:37
attention to the stuff we are worried
00:50:38
about which makes us feel unpleasant
00:50:40
emotions because that helped keep our
00:50:42
ancestors alive it was really useful
00:50:45
from an evolutionary perspective but it
00:50:47
just reduces our levels of well-being
00:50:50
and our ability to flourish in Modern
00:50:51
Life so we need to do things to counter
00:50:54
it is this all stuff that you learned
00:50:56
through your various degrees and your
00:50:59
study yeah it is it is so okay so you're
00:51:02
gone so you're sentencing lower Hut you
00:51:05
do time in Wellington then you get the
00:51:06
bus up to parimarima maximum security
00:51:08
you do some time there then you go back
00:51:10
to Wellington then you go into I think
00:51:12
with a unit what's a unit describe a
00:51:15
unit I mean like there are enough
00:51:17
minimum security yeah it's medium to
00:51:20
minimum right and that's where you start
00:51:21
your studying Journey yeah and I wanted
00:51:23
to start it when I was in Maximum
00:51:26
Security Prison but I couldn't get
00:51:27
permission to do something right and
00:51:29
then I was transferred out it's probably
00:51:30
not the in hindsight probably wasn't the
00:51:32
right environment well it depends I know
00:51:34
people who have done really well we've
00:51:35
started studying Mexican security prison
00:51:37
yeah wherever you're motivated to do it
00:51:39
it's the right environment Dom it really
00:51:41
is and I mean to be honest I think a
00:51:43
positive Focus for your energy is
00:51:45
crucial in prison and perhaps more so in
00:51:47
Maximum Security Prison than anywhere
00:51:49
else but anyway so you know prisoners
00:51:52
are structured in different ways the the
00:51:54
three basic uh types of structure you
00:51:56
have is you have units you have pods and
00:51:59
you have blocks those would be the most
00:52:01
common iron wings as well there you go
00:52:04
and it just depends on the physical
00:52:05
structure of the prison
00:52:07
like a block is a more historic sort of
00:52:10
way of describing places like Perry
00:52:12
which are based off a super max design
00:52:14
out of the US where you've got like a
00:52:17
single reticular building like a block
00:52:19
like an office block or like an
00:52:21
apartment block it is literally designed
00:52:23
in that way like in Perry and maximum
00:52:26
security there are multiple blocks a
00:52:27
Block B Block C block and d block I was
00:52:30
in B Block so in the middle of a and C
00:52:32
block and you never ever saw anything
00:52:34
like grass or anything else like that I
00:52:37
remember when I used to go in the yard
00:52:38
sometime you know if there was like a
00:52:40
weed growing up through the concrete I'd
00:52:42
be like oh wow look at that
00:52:45
nature nature yeah because either side
00:52:48
of you you just see the other blocks and
00:52:49
they've been in the yards like a giant
00:52:51
the Olympic-sized swimming pool whereas
00:52:53
pods is a more recent design for higher
00:52:55
security and they're more like sort of
00:52:58
like you know just an offshoot like uh a
00:53:02
sort of like an I don't want to say an
00:53:06
octagon but kind of of like you have
00:53:07
these long Pathways that lead to these
00:53:10
individual more sort of circular kind of
00:53:12
like blocks that they now just refer to
00:53:15
as pods more commonly and then wings as
00:53:18
well you know that can be different
00:53:20
parts of higher security but there's
00:53:21
often associated with lower security as
00:53:23
well in older prisons and these days as
00:53:26
well units and then you've got self-care
00:53:28
as well so units is where you go to when
00:53:30
you are in lower security and there's
00:53:33
more freedom there's less security you
00:53:35
know you won't have bars on the fronts
00:53:37
of the windows as a general rule that
00:53:39
sort of stuff and then self-care is
00:53:40
where you like in your own little uh
00:53:43
sort of like flattened situation within
00:53:46
the perimeter of the fence still but
00:53:49
you're responsible for your own cooking
00:53:50
and other stuff like that whereas a
00:53:52
normal prison you are yeah right right
00:53:54
yeah because like the unit thing um you
00:53:56
you just in your book you describe like
00:53:58
growing plants and you sell and well now
00:54:01
but you still at least your nose broken
00:54:02
and you're getting some hella fights
00:54:04
there yeah but those days are gone mate
00:54:06
you know like these days that I I can't
00:54:09
imagine there's anywhere where you're
00:54:10
allowed to grow your own plants or that
00:54:11
sort of stuff right because over the
00:54:13
years that sounded like weed was real
00:54:15
easy to get in and get hold of when you
00:54:16
were here I feel like and I could always
00:54:18
well being the president do you think so
00:54:19
100 I'll tell you why that is and one is
00:54:21
is that prisons are always comprised of
00:54:24
different levels of security and people
00:54:27
are very motivated to access drugs for
00:54:30
their own use but also you know if
00:54:31
you're a drug dealer in order to you
00:54:33
know make money and so if you've got
00:54:36
people who are lower security who are
00:54:38
going and working outside the wire on a
00:54:40
regular basis you know who are
00:54:42
performing the equivalent of community
00:54:43
service and then coming back in there's
00:54:44
always going to be an opportunity for
00:54:46
drugs to be accessed there yeah people
00:54:48
are always thinking of creative ways to
00:54:49
get things in and that's because they
00:54:51
have nothing but time on their hands but
00:54:53
also there'll always be a level of risk
00:54:55
for corruption yeah because you know
00:54:57
like being a prison officer that is a
00:54:59
hard thankless job it's not a well
00:55:02
remunerated job
00:55:03
and also you know there will be some
00:55:06
people who who just find themselves
00:55:08
falling victim to corruption in that
00:55:10
respect or who go in who Could equally
00:55:13
have been on the other side of the wire
00:55:15
and just engage in corruption is just
00:55:17
you know just half the course and I just
00:55:19
want to let you know that is the
00:55:20
exception rather than the role but it
00:55:22
definitely happens yeah risk happening
00:55:24
you know actually I thought of you last
00:55:26
night there's another ad campaign on TV
00:55:28
at the moment for recruiting for um
00:55:30
Department of Corrections for prison
00:55:31
guards and the guy on the TV ad he's had
00:55:33
a barbecue and he says oh I would do
00:55:35
this job because I want to make a
00:55:36
difference I want to help these people
00:55:37
and blah blah and I thought about you
00:55:39
and your experience most prison guards
00:55:42
that way wide or that way worked for the
00:55:44
job or there's some real bad bugs in my
00:55:46
experience if you go in there very uh
00:55:51
idealistic and very committed to helping
00:55:54
people change your spirit will be broken
00:55:56
quite quickly
00:55:58
and you know like just systemically it's
00:56:01
not set up for that Dom it's a bloody
00:56:04
hard environment
00:56:05
you know it's under resourced it's it's
00:56:09
you think it just gets cynical after all
00:56:11
in a very short time in general but also
00:56:14
as well you know it's an environment
00:56:16
where
00:56:17
it's easier to control focusing on
00:56:21
containment and security than it is on
00:56:24
Rehabilitation sure and because it's
00:56:27
like it has these real natural tensions
00:56:29
right like the protection of the public
00:56:31
as its primary driver so not having
00:56:34
people escape not having people you know
00:56:37
be a risk to the public but then it's
00:56:39
got this other driver of Rehabilitation
00:56:41
and the problem is is the way you
00:56:43
protect the public is by maximizing
00:56:46
security but the way you maximize
00:56:50
Rehabilitation is by maximizing
00:56:52
opportunities for people to take
00:56:54
responsibility for themselves and learn
00:56:56
which is the opposite of security yeah
00:56:57
the vast majority of people are going to
00:56:59
end up released at some point and I want
00:57:02
people where everything possible has
00:57:04
been done to increase the likelihood
00:57:06
that they will be contributing members
00:57:07
of society and not rear feet I don't
00:57:09
want people in my neighborhood who have
00:57:11
come straight from serving years or
00:57:12
decades in prison straight out the door
00:57:14
where there's been no reintegration
00:57:17
where there's been no sort of bridging
00:57:19
that Gap because those people are super
00:57:21
high risk of reoffending and you know I
00:57:24
mean you're an example of someone that
00:57:25
can flourish about I feel like most of
00:57:27
that's come from within well I think
00:57:28
you're mistaken in that right really 100
00:57:30
look I think this is the fight about it
00:57:34
no absolutely not I would like to cuddle
00:57:37
about it okay I would like to hug it I
00:57:39
don't want to fight I'll get a house
00:57:42
that's something I learned from your
00:57:44
book you tighten your shoelaces because
00:57:45
if you have to have to kick someone you
00:57:47
know when you shoot for it yeah and you
00:57:48
learn all sorts of things like that I
00:57:50
actually learned that from my oldest
00:57:51
brother who was a very accomplished
00:57:54
Street Fighter right back in the days
00:57:55
but anyway
00:57:58
thoughts so so you think um because I I
00:58:01
said I thought your Rehabilitation oh
00:58:02
yes they came from within and you
00:58:04
disagree yeah and I think this is the
00:58:06
thing we often attribute to the
00:58:08
individual their success or failure
00:58:10
whereas actually man we all operate
00:58:12
within an eco system a it's like if
00:58:16
you're in an environment where there are
00:58:18
expectations of you to live up to and
00:58:21
there are also options and opportunities
00:58:23
and support available for you to
00:58:25
progress to do things differently to
00:58:28
safely export explore to you know to
00:58:31
discover what you're capable of you're
00:58:33
way more likely to do that the biggest
00:58:34
difference between me and so many people
00:58:36
in prison is that I had a supportive
00:58:38
father who paid from education who
00:58:40
believed in me who was pro-social so
00:58:42
when I was released I didn't go
00:58:43
immediately back into you know a crime
00:58:45
family and also as well I had an
00:58:48
opportunity for employment on release
00:58:50
within a year of being released 80 New
00:58:52
Zealand prisoners are still unemployed
00:58:53
now that is because some of them are
00:58:55
difficult to employ but that's a whole
00:58:56
lot because also as well people don't
00:58:58
give them Second Chances New Zealand I
00:59:00
don't know if it's just New Zealand but
00:59:03
um I feel like it is it is very hard to
00:59:05
get redemption in New Zealand isn't it
00:59:07
bro I'll tell you what we follow the US
00:59:09
model which is the least effective model
00:59:11
possible we are literally only second
00:59:13
into the US in terms of the amount of
00:59:15
people we imprison per capita but also
00:59:17
how bad our reoffending rates are our
00:59:19
reimbursement rates only behind the U.S
00:59:21
because we follow the model that doesn't
00:59:23
work we follow the model which is a
00:59:26
political football which is about
00:59:28
winning votes based on emotional appeal
00:59:31
rather than logic rather than data
00:59:34
rather than facts rather than having
00:59:36
actual meaningful debate around this
00:59:39
stuff whereas you know there are other
00:59:41
models that work but we just haven't
00:59:42
bought in them and I'll tell us right
00:59:43
now I know that is something where we
00:59:46
are different than many parts of the
00:59:47
world because I've traveled
00:59:48
internationally a lot and you know New
00:59:51
Zealand is one of the few countries that
00:59:54
won't let people come into it if they
00:59:57
have been imprisoned for more than 12
00:59:59
months or being arrested or charged with
01:00:01
something where they could be in prison
01:00:02
for more than 12 months I remember when
01:00:04
I first went to Europe
01:00:06
I was on Parole at the time and you
01:00:09
needed to have permission to leave the
01:00:11
country
01:00:12
from the parole office as well before
01:00:14
you could and so they required evidence
01:00:16
that you'd be allowed to visit the
01:00:18
countries you were planning on going to
01:00:19
and I remember contacting the embassies
01:00:21
from the Greek Embassy the Italian
01:00:23
Embassy the French Embassy all to find
01:00:26
out from them hey would I still be able
01:00:28
to visit without a Visa even though I've
01:00:30
had a serious you know conviction as a
01:00:33
teenager in a long period of
01:00:34
imprisonment
01:00:35
and I tell what all of those countries
01:00:37
have the attitude that if you have done
01:00:39
the crime and done the time and your
01:00:42
country is okay with you leaving we
01:00:45
don't have an issue with you unless
01:00:46
you've already been kicked out of our
01:00:48
country the places that carry on this
01:00:51
lifetime of punishment this lifetime of
01:00:54
never being able to get past what you've
01:00:56
done you know that's the US that's
01:00:59
Australia that's uh Canada and Brazil
01:01:03
other places I've visited Asia visited
01:01:05
Elizabeth places they don't even ask you
01:01:06
about that stuff because if you've
01:01:09
served your sentence then as far as
01:01:11
they're concerned you're starting again
01:01:13
you've got a second chance we have this
01:01:15
very puritanical approach to this and
01:01:17
again look hey you can make the best
01:01:18
business case I understand why and I've
01:01:21
got to say I've visited Australia
01:01:22
multiple times and they're really good
01:01:23
about letting me in but I have to jump
01:01:25
through hoops in order to do so and
01:01:27
that's fine I accept that but most
01:01:29
countries in the world
01:01:31
have the attitude that once you've
01:01:32
served your sentence you are now given a
01:01:35
clean slate and an opportunity to redeem
01:01:37
yourself that doesn't mean they let you
01:01:38
go and work in higher risk roles with
01:01:40
vulnerable people without it being a
01:01:42
consideration but they do maximize your
01:01:44
opportunity to be a normal contributing
01:01:47
civilian yeah how good is that well it's
01:01:49
fantastic something I've learned from
01:01:51
this podcast this year is everyone's
01:01:52
carrying around a bag of [ __ ] and it's
01:01:54
just um the the size of the bag of [ __ ]
01:01:57
that varies from person to person and
01:01:59
everyone struggles with like I don't
01:02:02
know I suppose guilt shame regret but
01:02:05
your your baggage is probably heavier
01:02:06
than most so you do your time you pay
01:02:09
your time to the government but then how
01:02:11
do you how do you get over that stuff
01:02:12
are you are you over that stuff I mean
01:02:14
it's not about getting over it it's
01:02:16
about using those emotions as the fuel
01:02:20
in your tank to go forward and make a
01:02:23
contribution you know let's just talk
01:02:25
about the difference between shame and
01:02:26
guilt briefly I feel guilt about what
01:02:29
I've done in the past that's hurt other
01:02:30
people I don't feel Shame about it
01:02:32
because shame is something you feel when
01:02:34
you think there's something
01:02:34
fundamentally wrong with you shame is
01:02:36
what you feel when you think this
01:02:38
happened because I'm a bad irredeemable
01:02:40
person that's when you feel shame guilt
01:02:42
on the other hand is when you go I
01:02:44
behaved in a way that I regret and that
01:02:48
guilt is my motivation to do different
01:02:50
going forward that guilt is the fuel in
01:02:53
my tank and the more consistently I live
01:02:55
my life in a way which is in line with
01:02:59
who I want to be and how I can make a
01:03:01
contribution the lesser the impact of
01:03:03
that guilt I still feel it like when I
01:03:06
think about you know my victim's family
01:03:07
you know I definitely still feel guilt
01:03:09
do you how often do you think about it
01:03:11
now does it get less and less does it
01:03:12
get easier for you look it definitely
01:03:14
gets less and less but also as well it
01:03:16
becomes something you can face more
01:03:18
effectively like I really didn't want to
01:03:20
give my victims family any thought for
01:03:23
many many years because it was too hard
01:03:25
these days I'm equipped to be able to
01:03:28
think about them and about the pain I
01:03:30
have caused them and the whole in their
01:03:31
life as a result of my actions you know
01:03:34
I'm equipped to deal with that and again
01:03:36
it's just a reminder to me that I need
01:03:39
to be really focused going forward on
01:03:42
bringing my a game on trying to get
01:03:45
better at being the person I want to be
01:03:46
but also at using my mistakes in the
01:03:51
past in order to positively influence
01:03:53
other people who want to find a way
01:03:56
forward for themselves and who need a
01:03:58
bit of motivation to know there is
01:04:00
always a path back you can no matter
01:04:03
what you've done you can always find a
01:04:05
way forward to a better life and there's
01:04:08
always the option of being re-accepted
01:04:10
by Society the comparing down thing that
01:04:12
we were talking about before you're
01:04:13
probably a good example like if you're
01:04:14
talking to a room of real estate agents
01:04:15
with Rolexes the The Guild or saying
01:04:18
they're carrying is probably infidelity
01:04:19
or I don't know it's not as heavy as
01:04:22
your burden yeah and my burdens nothing
01:04:25
compared to
01:04:26
yeah for sure you know I look back on my
01:04:29
life and think I have been blessed in
01:04:30
terms of how easy my life has been
01:04:32
compared to a lot of people I have come
01:04:34
across and you know again it's like
01:04:37
you know a lot of people who have had
01:04:40
extremely traumatic experiences
01:04:43
unfortunately you know they don't have
01:04:46
the reference point they don't have the
01:04:47
Insight they don't have the skills they
01:04:48
don't have the support in order to not
01:04:50
repeat some of that stuff themselves but
01:04:53
you know that's something we've got to
01:04:54
look to do as a society is get better at
01:04:57
providing people with you know some of
01:05:00
those indicators of what the path
01:05:02
forward could look like for them and
01:05:03
some of the support and opportunity that
01:05:05
helps them take that rather than you
01:05:08
know repeating the cycle rather than
01:05:10
just inhabiting that same space that
01:05:13
maybe they've experienced yeah man we're
01:05:15
glad I could talk to you for days
01:05:16
likewise bro I want to go for a run
01:05:18
sometime yeah yeah you'll have to be
01:05:20
injured when we do it oh 100 at the
01:05:22
moment so you're good so is that
01:05:24
something you were in jail for a long
01:05:26
time but you've been out now for longer
01:05:27
than what you were in yes you see you're
01:05:29
saying at the beginning of this chat
01:05:30
that you like running on the trails when
01:05:32
you're out there in nature in the free
01:05:34
share running on the trails do you think
01:05:36
about that weed I do regulate like when
01:05:40
I run on the trails man well like I
01:05:41
always touch the trees and the ferns and
01:05:44
that on the side of the trail not all
01:05:46
the time of course but I'll be running
01:05:47
past off and I'll just touch it and I'll
01:05:49
be like yes because I'll tear this right
01:05:52
now I remember how much I longed just to
01:05:55
be in nature when I was in prison when I
01:05:57
was in lower security at rheumataka
01:05:59
prison I used to just look out the
01:06:01
window and be able to see the hills and
01:06:04
I used to just long just to be in there
01:06:06
and now I get to be in there bro you
01:06:09
know I get to experience that and I am
01:06:12
so bloody grateful and I am aware of it
01:06:15
you know I am conscious of it and I am
01:06:17
appreciative of it and I love you know
01:06:19
being in this country with second
01:06:21
chances are a real thing you know had I
01:06:23
been arrested and convicted somewhere
01:06:25
like China I would have been executed my
01:06:27
family would have been sent the invoice
01:06:28
for the bullet used you know this is a
01:06:30
great nation it really is and I'm super
01:06:32
grateful for the the chance to have a
01:06:35
second chance yeah well
01:06:38
I reckon that's probably a good place to
01:06:40
him sign it off okay bro that's awesome
01:06:42
and um your mum she would be proud thank
01:06:45
you I really do appreciate that cheers
01:06:48
Dr Paul wood thanks
