00:00:06
Steve Bronnius, welcome to my podcast.
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>> Thanks so much. It was a pleasure to be
00:00:10
here. It's very flattering to be
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invited. Thank you.
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>> It's It's really nice to meet you. I'm
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slightly um terrified in a way, I think.
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>> Ease your terror.
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>> Really?
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>> No, because I I you probably you've done
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you do so much writing, so you probably
00:00:24
don't even remember this. And I only
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vaguely remember it because I think I've
00:00:28
tried to block it out. But you I have
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been um a subject of one of your
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columns. One of those um
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>> Secret Diary.
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>> Yeah, Secret Diary.
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>> Was it the Secret Diary of Dom Harvey
00:00:37
>> something? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I
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was on commercial radio for like a
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number of years show on a station called
00:00:42
The Edge. And I would have done
00:00:43
something oish or buffoonish and I would
00:00:46
would have deserved a public bollocking
00:00:48
and um rightfully I I got one from the
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great Steve Bronners.
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>> I'm sure it wasn't a bollocking. It
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might have been a gentle mocking,
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>> but you you have been described as
00:00:57
merciless. Merciless. What um if you
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looked up in the thesaurus, what are
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some other words for merciless? What
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does what does that mean?
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>> Um
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>> like savage.
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>> Savage, cold, unfeilling, lacking in
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empathy, ruthless. These are good
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synonyms.
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>> Is Is that fair? Are you merciless? Oh,
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I I I yeah, I would have to acknowledge
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that sometimes that that would be true.
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Um yes, uh professionally
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um that would be accurate and you know
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there's there's often not a a great
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distinction between your professional
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life and your personal life as well.
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So, um yeah, I I think that would be um
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mainly a kind of failing
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um as a person and as a as a writer and
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a journalist, but sometimes it it can
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be, you know, harnessed to good effect.
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Um, I guess I'm one of these sort of
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writers who um,
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you know, I just can't resist a lot of
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things.
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And um, you know, I'm the sort of person
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who will write something and think,
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"Yep, yeah, you you you should say
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this."
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And then, you know, subsequently regret
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it
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>> and and beat myself up. So, you sort of
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think, [ __ ] that's a little bit mean,
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but [ __ ] it. YOLO. It's funny. Send.
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>> It's It's more of a sort of a matter of
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is it um is it
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does it belong to the story and is it
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accurate to the story? And um
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yeah, it the sort of god that I that
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that I've that I've you know kind of
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worshiped over the years is this idea of
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the story. You know the story has to be
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intact and the story has to be honest
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and um it's often at the expense of the
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person who writes it which is me.
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>> Yeah. cuz there was that column I found
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that described you as merciless but um
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if you do a deep dive or you know I know
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you've got a lot of fans a lot of people
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that have probably read all your work
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like there's some columns that you've
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written which are like about your
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daughter and about your personal life
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and they're anything but uh yeah they're
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very um you're very soft and gentle.
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Yeah, it can be. Yeah. I mean, you know,
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everyone is complicated, right? uh no
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one is any one thing and so I don't I
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don't see it as any particular
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contradiction or surprise that I should
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you know spend a lot of time say writing
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about murder trials and often or
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sometimes at least quite unfeillingly
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towards say the accused and then spend
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you know a great deal of my writing life
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uh writing quite sentimental columns
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about my mom, my daughter and people who
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I love in my life. Uh, we're all like
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that.
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>> Yeah. And the crime stuff that you're
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talking about. So, this is your latest
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book. Um, which was Shroud and Secrecy.
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I had to sign an NDA to get a copy of
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this in advance. Pulking Horn Inside the
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Trial of the Century. So, that's your
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latest bit of work and I'm looking
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forward to getting into that. Um, I like
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a lot of New Zealanders, I think last
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year during the Pulking Horn trial, um,
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were had an insatiable appetite for your
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updates, your columns.
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>> Cool. Thank you.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. Um, so that's your most
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recent piece of work. In this folder
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here, I also have um one of your oldest
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pieces of work. Um, I found something
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that you wrote in 1987. Where were you
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in 1987? And how old were you in 1987?
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>> I was 27. Uh, I would been would have
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been living in Wellington.
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>> When was the last time you saw this?
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>> Cheap as creepers. Dom Harvey is holding
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up an archive issue of RTR Countdown
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magazine, New Zealand's premier music
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magazine for teenagers across the land.
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I was 14 at the time and uh I was so
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excited about this magazine coming out
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because I had an insatable appetite for
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music. All there really was in New
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Zealand at that point was a free one
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called Rip It Up, which you get from the
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record stores.
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>> Yes.
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>> Which sort of had a alternative leaning
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to it. So, in terms of um the sort of
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genre of music I was interested in at
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the time, there was like a UK magazine
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called Smash Hits that would come out
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once a month. Yes.
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>> And it would have like the lyrics to
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four popular songs in there. Um and it
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was never the song you wanted. It was
00:05:25
never Dance Exponents or the mockers or
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the NS. And then this magazine came out
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along alongside another one called Shake
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around a similar time. And I love this.
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And I found this at home the other day
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and there's an article from you in
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there.
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>> Oh gee. It's uh Dom is pointing to a
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feature story I wrote on a TV series
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called Peppermint Twist starring uh Ian
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Ray uh among other people. Yeah, it was
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a uh a teenage kind of comedy drama
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filmed in uh the wilds of Upper Hut.
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>> Yeah. Do do you Yeah. What was that like
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running for a music magazine? Very
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>> fantastic. Yeah.
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>> Fantastic. Uh yeah, I I I I really kind
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of got into journalism by writing about
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music. I had um I had attended the
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school of journalism at Wellington
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Polytenic in 1980.
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There was a class of 50. I was the only
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person to fail to graduate.
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Um
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even so you know I was alongside people
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uh like like like you know Mark
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Sainsbury and Frano Sullivan, Chris
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Ratu, people who
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had you know very long careers and uh I
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thought it was unfair you know um that
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that that should be the case. I mean I
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was I didn't I didn't I didn't graduate
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for very good reasons. I was absolutely
00:06:50
useless you know I couldn't report to
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save myself.
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Um, and I was kind of consequently
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unemployable,
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but there was a street magazine in
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Wellington at the time called um,
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InTouch,
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and uh, it covered local music scene.
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Didn't pay anybody to write anything
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about it, but it was exciting as hell.
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So, I started writing for that about
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local bands of the time.
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Um, I remember writing quite a few
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stories about a uh a band called
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Unrestful Movements.
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Uh, shocking name really. Some sort of
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bowel problem, doesn't it really? But
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they were a really good band actually.
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And the whole scene in Wellington at
00:07:34
that time, we're talking early 1980s,
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was very exciting, very thrilling, and
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quite distinct. we all sort of hated
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Oakland and this movement towards um you
00:07:45
know incandescent pop like the screaming
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meme you know Wellington was too good
00:07:50
for that we were uh underground and we
00:07:53
were um hard-edged and so I wrote about
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that scene um a lot for years and years
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and that sort of eventually kind of you
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know evolved into finding a career
00:08:06
within journalism and it and it led
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directly to writing for Countdown
00:08:10
magazine.
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>> What was your writing like then? Like
00:08:12
when you were doing um interviews with
00:08:15
pop stars, say um cuz I'm guessing it's
00:08:18
very different to the Steve Bronnas now.
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>> Um it wasn't as uh considered or as
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thoughtful. It was pretty rough around
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the the edges. It was um energetic,
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that's for sure. Um
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it was quite sarcastic, I would say.
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>> That hasn't changed. No, that hasn't
00:08:38
really changed, has it, Dom? Um, but uh
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yeah, it was it I've always had a huge
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enthusiasm for writing and and you know
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and for writing about people. I find
00:08:52
people super interesting
00:08:55
um in all sorts of ways. And I think so
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I think that was a constant back then,
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you know, uh right from the beginning. I
00:09:02
I just really um you know I read I very
00:09:06
seldom read anything I've ever written.
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You know I never sit down and um reread
00:09:11
a book or an article. I'm just always on
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the go. You know I'm running away from
00:09:17
it really because I'll be afraid I can
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see um
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you know a poorly composed sentence. Um
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and I'm a great believer too in um this
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is this is a recent sort of um very
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poorly formed philosophy I have Dom that
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everything that we do in the in and and
00:09:38
creatively like write or broadcast
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uh perform
00:09:43
um after a while you get to understand
00:09:47
that it's a really obvious x-ray of who
00:09:50
the person really is and their strengths
00:09:53
and their failings. things. Um, I see it
00:09:56
a lot quite instantly in people who do
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public speaking. Do you do public
00:10:00
speaking?
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>> The occasional keynote keynote.
00:10:03
>> Yeah. You don't want me in the audience.
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I'll be an X-ray going, "Oh, yes. That's
00:10:07
what he's really like." Um, I I do it
00:10:10
myself. I do a fair bit of it and I
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instantly knowing while I'm talking,
00:10:14
wow,
00:10:14
>> what do you what do you mean? Can you
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sort of elaborate on that? It's a as I
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say it's a very poorly formed philosophy
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but um I think the real person shines
00:10:23
through and this is what we conversely I
00:10:26
think this is what we sort of love about
00:10:28
great art that you see greatness in
00:10:30
people and this terrific for example
00:10:33
sensitivity
00:10:35
towards um feeling you know like a great
00:10:39
artist like Taylor Swift
00:10:42
um this amazing sort of sensitivity and
00:10:45
nuance that she has comes comes all
00:10:47
through in her music, you know, and
00:10:49
you're surrounded by the sort of glory
00:10:51
and beauty of what it is to be human.
00:10:54
Conversely, uh you can spot a phony a
00:10:58
mile off and um or someone who's kind of
00:11:02
dim-witted, a bit slow, maybe a bit
00:11:05
vain, a bit arrogant, hasn't thought it
00:11:07
through, but is just rushing. And uh
00:11:10
these are the kind of uh things that
00:11:12
that I um that I detect particularly in
00:11:16
sort of public speaking. And um you know
00:11:20
I I know that if I reread some of my
00:11:22
work I I'll I'll see um artistic
00:11:24
failings,
00:11:26
you know, a badly composed sentence,
00:11:29
something that was rushed um and
00:11:31
something that reveals a kind of innate
00:11:34
stupidity.
00:11:37
>> Yeah. I feel like you've got a good
00:11:39
[ __ ] detector. You don't suffer
00:11:42
fools. Would that be fair to say?
00:11:43
>> Oh, no. I love fools.
00:11:45
Love fools. Yeah, I'm very foolish
00:11:48
person myself.
00:11:49
>> You can smell one. You can smell the
00:11:50
smell of phony a mile away.
00:11:52
>> Oh, I think I don't know. I'm not sure
00:11:55
if that's true. That sounds like a sort
00:11:57
of a superior vantage point, doesn't it?
00:11:59
uh one of the sort of you know crucial
00:12:02
books that I that I read as a as a a
00:12:05
person in my 20s and I didn't really
00:12:08
read a lot before then you know at
00:12:10
school I was total idiot just real
00:12:13
stupid failed all my exams that kind of
00:12:16
thing and the only literature that I was
00:12:18
reading uh which I didn't realize at the
00:12:21
time was actually really valuable but
00:12:22
the only literature I was reading at the
00:12:24
time was uh football football magazines
00:12:27
football comics Roy the Rovers, World
00:12:30
Soccer, and football books. Um, which I
00:12:33
sort of, you know, instinctively
00:12:35
regarded as probably quite trashy and
00:12:37
wasn't literature. Quite wrong. You
00:12:39
know, a lot of great writing in that
00:12:41
genre and been a huge influence on the
00:12:43
way I write. But yeah, it wasn't until I
00:12:45
was in my early 20s that I that I I
00:12:47
really started reading. Um, I remember
00:12:51
going to um, uh, the Wellington Public
00:12:55
Library and studying an encyclopedia,
00:12:59
you know, to try and get a bit smarter
00:13:01
about things. And, um, under Alpha
00:13:05
Literature, they had a long list of all
00:13:09
the books that had won the National Book
00:13:10
Award in America since 1945. So I copied
00:13:14
them out by hand and um read those books
00:13:18
from 1945 to this must have been like
00:13:20
1982 and among them was um very
00:13:25
securitous answer to your question about
00:13:27
[ __ ] detection and phonies and among
00:13:30
them was catcher and the rye
00:13:31
>> oh JD Salinger
00:13:32
>> JD Salinger and the sort of the the
00:13:34
theme of that book is is Holden Kfield's
00:13:38
um hatred of phonies this is like the
00:13:41
the the one word which keeps coming up
00:13:43
in the book. So and so was a phony and
00:13:46
uh this is like terrifically strong
00:13:48
emotional appeal to a uh you know a
00:13:52
young guy um who likewise goes yeah you
00:13:56
know the world is full of phonies and
00:13:58
that's one thing to avoid and in other
00:14:00
people um and of course in yourself. M
00:14:06
>> yeah I believe that's um that's the book
00:14:08
that Mark Chapman read um which was the
00:14:10
catalyst for him um murdering John
00:14:12
Lenon.
00:14:13
>> Yeah he he I I guess his thesis was that
00:14:16
Lenon was a phony.
00:14:18
>> Lenon was singing about imagine and
00:14:20
imagine no possessions while being a uh
00:14:23
virtually a billionaire with a lot of
00:14:24
real estate holdings. Um you know it's a
00:14:28
kind of accurate thesis as far as that
00:14:29
goes but gee creepers what he did.
00:14:32
>> Yeah. He's still in prison.
00:14:34
>> Yeah, still incar castle right now.
00:14:36
>> Incredible. Is that right?
00:14:38
>> Yeah. No trial, no nothing. Missed out
00:14:40
on something there.
00:14:42
>> Uh, you know, I often think about, you
00:14:45
know, worldwide these uh, you know, the
00:14:47
famous murder trials and how awesome it
00:14:50
would have been and how interesting it
00:14:52
would have been to go to like, you know,
00:14:55
I was in London a few years ago, had I
00:14:58
had some business there. God knows what
00:15:00
it was, but I had a couple of days free
00:15:03
and so, you know, scanning the newspaper
00:15:05
to see what was happening in in in
00:15:07
London. Didn't exactly go to the concert
00:15:09
guide, but just to see what the what was
00:15:11
going on.
00:15:13
That's why I ended up That's how I ended
00:15:15
up for three days at the Ralph Harris
00:15:16
trial at the uh
00:15:19
>> This is what you do. Um this is what you
00:15:22
do for fun on holidays.
00:15:23
>> That's what I did for fun. Yeah. And it
00:15:25
was such fun. It was fascinating. Ralph
00:15:28
Harris. Good grief. You know, like he's
00:15:31
like a a part of the Australasian
00:15:34
childhood.
00:15:35
>> Yeah.
00:15:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. For me growing up, he was
00:15:38
the the Trust British Paints guy.
00:15:40
>> So yeah, that endorsement,
00:15:42
>> the drumming on the lid, some of the
00:15:44
best music ever recorded.
00:15:46
>> You haven't done a lot on the way of
00:15:47
podcast. Say, I was telling you before
00:15:48
we came in, I heard one on because once
00:15:50
a podcast is published, it remains there
00:15:52
until the publisher removes it. And
00:15:54
you've done one with Simon Sweetman
00:15:55
who's a uh a writer.
00:15:57
>> Oh yeah.
00:15:58
>> Um
00:15:59
>> and there's another one with Graham Hill
00:16:00
which was like a radio segment which was
00:16:02
posted online on the podcast platforms.
00:16:04
But this is your first long form
00:16:06
platform about Steve Bronners
00:16:08
>> I guess. Is this what this is? Yeah.
00:16:09
Would be. Yeah. Yeah. I'd forgotten
00:16:11
those two. I mean they were
00:16:13
>> they were chats. Were they podcasts?
00:16:15
Were they?
00:16:15
>> Yeah. They're on the various podcast
00:16:17
apps,
00:16:17
>> right? Podcast apps.
00:16:19
>> Yeah. Like Spotify and Apple. You you're
00:16:21
playing dumb, right? You you've got a
00:16:24
your daughter's what 18 19? Yeah. You
00:16:27
know, you even mentioned Taylor Swift
00:16:28
before. You you know about podcasting.
00:16:32
>> I I I certainly know about it. I've
00:16:34
never play your character.
00:16:35
>> I've never listened to one in my life.
00:16:37
No. No. No. Actually, I listened to one
00:16:40
in a few years ago. Put me off for life.
00:16:43
Really? Um I'm not I'm not a Yeah.
00:16:46
Godmighty. The idea of this seems
00:16:49
contradictory to say because I'm
00:16:50
recording a podcast with you, but the
00:16:52
idea of sitting down to to to listen to
00:16:54
somebody chanting on Oh,
00:16:58
[ __ ] death. But, um, no, I'm
00:17:01
certainly aware of them. Um, and my
00:17:03
Yeah, my daughter, she's a huge fan of
00:17:05
them.
00:17:06
>> Yeah. Well, there's I mean, I I we
00:17:09
discussed this before we came on and I
00:17:10
do two podcasts a week and they find
00:17:12
they find their audience. So there'll be
00:17:13
people that are massive Steve Bronners
00:17:14
fans that absorb all your work, maybe
00:17:17
have bought all 14 books that will love
00:17:19
the idea of hearing you chat for a
00:17:20
couple of hours.
00:17:21
>> Oh, that's nice.
00:17:22
>> Yeah. So it finds an audience. Um
00:17:25
during the poking horn chat poking horn
00:17:27
chat, you mentioned a couple of times
00:17:28
like taking the bus home. Um so you've
00:17:30
recently become a pincher. You've never
00:17:32
driven.
00:17:33
>> Never.
00:17:34
>> 65 years old in June this year and
00:17:36
you've never driven. Why? How did that
00:17:38
happen? um just a sort of a a failing,
00:17:42
you know. I didn't couldn't figure it
00:17:44
out. Didn't know how to go about it. Uh
00:17:46
>> what do you mean?
00:17:48
>> I didn't didn't have the confidence for
00:17:50
it, you know. So, I um
00:17:54
you know, uh what's that old saying
00:17:57
about um you know, you got to get out of
00:17:59
your comfort zone.
00:18:00
>> Oh, nonsense. Let me tell you, comfort
00:18:03
zone is the best thing there is. It's
00:18:06
comfortable.
00:18:06
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:18:07
>> For a start, my comfort zone is not
00:18:10
driving. Um,
00:18:11
>> how do you know?
00:18:13
>> Oh,
00:18:14
>> you've never driven.
00:18:16
>> I've had the odd, you know, uh, the odd
00:18:20
experience of it. Uh, last time was, um,
00:18:23
my mate Shane Carter, the singer and
00:18:26
songwriter.
00:18:27
>> Oh, Straight Jacket Fitz.
00:18:29
>> Wonderful band.
00:18:30
>> Great.
00:18:31
>> I only, you know, that's one of my
00:18:32
favorite songs of all time. I was
00:18:34
devastated. I only found out about a
00:18:35
month ago that he he didn't actually
00:18:36
write it. What? Um, Down in Splendor.
00:18:39
>> Yeah, it's the other fellow, isn't it?
00:18:40
>> Wonderful song though.
00:18:41
>> True. Yeah.
00:18:42
>> It's um in a in a fair and just world it
00:18:44
would be up there with Don't Dream It's
00:18:46
Over.
00:18:47
>> Yeah, that sort of.
00:18:48
>> Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um,
00:18:52
yeah. You know, but Shane Shane gave me
00:18:54
a uh a driving lesson a few years ago.
00:18:57
He was living in Aramana. And so I went
00:19:00
down to stay with him. And yeah, we we I
00:19:02
I drove around Otago Dom. I drove around
00:19:07
Otago. It's my my one claim to motoring
00:19:09
fame.
00:19:10
>> Yeah. For like three days with his um
00:19:13
with the instructions of the man who
00:19:15
wrote She Speeds.
00:19:18
>> What were you like in Ara Moana? Was it
00:19:20
like a like a sightseeing tour for you?
00:19:22
Like with your obsession with true
00:19:24
crime?
00:19:26
Um, no. I I I uh No, I was uh I didn't I
00:19:31
didn't do a dark tourism
00:19:34
>> thing on that. No. Uh beautiful little
00:19:36
village. Just walked around it,
00:19:38
>> hung up with Shane
00:19:40
>> and drove.
00:19:42
>> But um and you know, I found it kind of
00:19:45
fun. And it was it was uh it was it was
00:19:48
a revelation to be able to
00:19:52
move something, you know, along
00:19:57
a road at at speed and at distance. That
00:20:02
was a that was a uncanny kind of thing
00:20:06
to do.
00:20:07
>> Um
00:20:09
>> and then I came home and completely
00:20:10
forgot about the experience and hopped
00:20:12
back on the bus.
00:20:12
>> Yeah. I'm just curious about how this um
00:20:15
this I suppose right of passage passed
00:20:17
you by. So you're born in Mount Monganoi
00:20:19
in 1960.
00:20:20
>> Yes.
00:20:20
>> So mid70s at the age of 15 when
00:20:23
everyone's getting their driver's
00:20:24
license.
00:20:26
>> I don't most people at that age just
00:20:27
have this insatiable desire to like
00:20:29
almost get as far far away from their
00:20:31
parents as possible or as just have that
00:20:32
sense of freedom that comes with
00:20:34
>> having a motor vehicle. Did did you not
00:20:36
or did you just have friends that could
00:20:37
drive?
00:20:39
H I I I
00:20:42
recognize the feeling about wanting to
00:20:44
get away. Uh I remember sitting in in
00:20:47
class at Mount Monganui
00:20:50
>> and
00:20:52
outside the window in the distance was
00:20:54
the Kimai Rangers and you know literally
00:20:58
thinking looking at them and going wow
00:21:00
what's what's on the other side? My life
00:21:03
is on the other side. I need to get get
00:21:06
to the other side. When's the next bus?
00:21:11
[Music]
00:21:13
>> You thought this is a comfortable way to
00:21:14
travel. I'm going to stick with this.
00:21:17
So,
00:21:17
>> and indeed, you know, I I I I left at 18
00:21:20
on the bus. I went to Wellington. That
00:21:23
that seemed to me to make perfect sense.
00:21:25
>> Yeah. So, Wellington Polytech, you go
00:21:27
there to do a journalism course. You
00:21:28
last six weeks.
00:21:29
>> I lasted the whole year.
00:21:31
>> Oh, did you?
00:21:31
>> And still failed.
00:21:32
>> Right. Why did I Why did I think you
00:21:34
dropped out after six weeks?
00:21:35
>> Ah, right. No, the previous year I I I
00:21:38
went to Victoria University and was so
00:21:41
damned stupid. I I I got out of there
00:21:43
after six weeks. Yeah.
00:21:45
>> Were you stupid or did you I mean,
00:21:47
you're clearly not stupid. Did Did you
00:21:48
just have like a different way of
00:21:49
learning that wasn't sort of recognized
00:21:51
at the time or do you know what I mean?
00:21:53
Like there's there's labels for things
00:21:55
now.
00:21:56
>> There are labels. No, there is labels.
00:21:59
The one I adhere to is that I'm damned
00:22:02
stupid. I I didn't understand anything
00:22:04
they was saying. I didn't get it at all.
00:22:07
I couldn't write an essay to save my
00:22:09
life. I couldn't Yeah. You know, it
00:22:13
didn't come as any shock. I was pretty
00:22:16
bad at um at secondary school. I got
00:22:19
English, failed everything else. M
00:22:22
>> um
00:22:24
you know at the same time I I I I knew I
00:22:27
was um fluent
00:22:30
uh as a writer and that this was um you
00:22:35
know with a with a bit of luck and
00:22:38
fortitude and cheek and g uh that this
00:22:42
was going to uh be the thing that I
00:22:44
could do. You know, it was like I was
00:22:46
just like terrified,
00:22:49
you know, upon adolescence thinking,
00:22:50
gee, what am I what am I going to do,
00:22:53
you know, fit for nothing?
00:22:56
>> Until you Yeah. you find your place in
00:22:58
the world.
00:22:58
>> Yeah. So, you were on the what was
00:23:00
called the doll for a while, the
00:23:01
unemployment benefit. Uh late '7s, early
00:23:04
80s.
00:23:04
>> Um throughout a good deal of the 1980s.
00:23:08
>> This is when unemployment was quite high
00:23:09
in New Zealand.
00:23:11
>> Yeah. There were a lot of us around. It
00:23:12
didn't seem like an anomaly. Yeah. All
00:23:15
my friends were unemployed. So I
00:23:17
regarded it as perfectly um normal. I
00:23:20
mean it was a consequence of having you
00:23:22
know done the journalism school and
00:23:24
failing uh to graduate you know
00:23:27
bizarrely. Um employers were a bit
00:23:30
loathed to take on somebody who who
00:23:32
couldn't graduate from journalism
00:23:35
school. But I managed to finally sort of
00:23:37
catch on and I I I got a job at um Radio
00:23:41
2XS which in Palmer North which is
00:23:43
something we have in common.
00:23:45
>> Um they were desperate for journalists.
00:23:48
They had to scrape the bottom of the
00:23:51
barrel to find journalists
00:23:54
uh who would agree to work there. And
00:23:56
there I was lying at the bottom of the
00:23:58
barrel.
00:24:00
>> Similar to me, they love hiring
00:24:01
unqualified people.
00:24:05
I was there from um full full-time. I
00:24:07
did work experience there while I was at
00:24:08
Palmer Boys High for a couple of years
00:24:10
and then worked there full-time from
00:24:12
right through the 90s actually.
00:24:13
>> Oh, you're from Palmer North. You're
00:24:15
local there.
00:24:16
>> Yeah, I was born in born in Levven and
00:24:18
moved to Palmer North um in 1980. So,
00:24:21
you and I we were there the same time.
00:24:23
>> What the heck? Wow.
00:24:24
>> How was your time in Palmy?
00:24:25
>> I absolutely love Palmer North. It was
00:24:27
great. Yeah, I was Yeah, the job was the
00:24:32
job was awesome. Um, being a a radio
00:24:36
news journalist was was thrilling, you
00:24:39
know, uh, didn't really know the first
00:24:42
thing about journalism, having been a
00:24:45
flop at the journalism school. And this
00:24:47
is where I learned how to do it, you
00:24:49
know. Um, really good people to work
00:24:52
with. Uh it was before the dreadful,
00:24:55
you know, smoking legislation came in
00:24:58
and it was kind of compulsory to sit at
00:25:01
your desk and chain smoke. Everyone else
00:25:03
did. That's where I learned to smoke.
00:25:06
Seemed like great fun. Everyone smoked
00:25:08
sportsman cigarettes. I thought, well,
00:25:10
that's quite athletic.
00:25:12
So we all sat there and chain smoked and
00:25:15
um
00:25:17
and yeah the the I've always seemed to
00:25:20
be a great one for looking out windows
00:25:22
at things. Mount Mongoi was the Kaimai
00:25:24
ranges at two excss it was the Ruahene
00:25:27
ranges and I thought I'm on the right
00:25:29
side. This is where life is. I don't
00:25:32
care what's on the other side. This is
00:25:34
fantastic.
00:25:36
>> And you were there for a couple of
00:25:37
years.
00:25:38
>> Yes, I was there for a couple of years.
00:25:40
I was glaring out the window one day at
00:25:42
the rangers and a starling
00:25:46
came and perched on the on the window
00:25:49
sill.
00:25:51
Beautiful bird. People don't really take
00:25:54
the time to appreciate how beautiful
00:25:56
their coloring is. And I was staring at
00:25:58
it and this um
00:26:02
uh young woman, a student intern who was
00:26:05
there at the time um said, "What are you
00:26:08
what are you looking at?" I said, "Look
00:26:10
at that bird. Isn't it beautiful?" And
00:26:13
she looked at it too and and she turned
00:26:15
to me and smiled and we fell in love.
00:26:21
>> Have you been married? Did you marry?
00:26:23
>> Mhm.
00:26:23
>> Yeah.
00:26:26
>> Yeah. Was that your your first wife?
00:26:29
>> That woman? No, I'm not describing my
00:26:30
first wife. No, I got married um
00:26:32
sometime after that. Yeah.
00:26:34
>> Just Yeah. Okay. Um Yeah. What's your
00:26:37
relationship status at the moment? I
00:26:38
found a column that you wrote a couple
00:26:40
of year January 2023. Um an age gap
00:26:43
longdistance love story.
00:26:45
>> Yeah. Which I thought I'd bring up
00:26:47
because I'm I'm in a relationship at the
00:26:48
moment with a a substantial gap. I'm 52,
00:26:50
she's 31.
00:26:53
>> What's that age gap?
00:26:54
>> Uh 20 21 years. 22 years. 21 years.
00:26:57
>> That's That's kind of substantial.
00:27:00
>> What was yours? You wrote a column about
00:27:01
it.
00:27:02
>> It was around about there.
00:27:03
>> Yeah.
00:27:04
>> Um
00:27:06
>> I mean it's around about there. Yeah.
00:27:08
>> Um Yeah. No, we are uh we we we go out
00:27:12
together.
00:27:15
>> You're still in a relationship now?
00:27:16
>> Yes.
00:27:16
>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:27:18
>> Um and you've recently turned um Yeah.
00:27:21
65. You got the gold card now. How's
00:27:23
that? I'm waiting for the gold card.
00:27:24
>> It hasn't arrived yet. Do you have to
00:27:25
apply or does it just
00:27:27
>> Yeah, you fill out these forms. I've
00:27:29
been phoning them every day. Where's my
00:27:32
gold card?
00:27:35
>> What What do you want with it? Is it the
00:27:37
Is it the buses? Is it the buses?
00:27:38
>> The ferryy to hickey.
00:27:40
>> It's I basically live my life on a bus,
00:27:42
you know. Uh yeah, I want that. I mean
00:27:46
that that's my uh one of my great ideas
00:27:48
of fun is to be on the bus and go all
00:27:51
around um Oakland. Uh my girlfriend and
00:27:54
I do that constantly. We were there the
00:27:57
other day. We went to um Panmure uh to
00:28:00
Have you been to Panmure?
00:28:02
>> Not since they had the the um famous
00:28:04
roundabout taken out.
00:28:05
>> Oh, that was sad, wasn't it?
00:28:07
>> Great area, though.
00:28:09
>> Yeah. Um, no. We go there to um it would
00:28:13
be my long-held ambition to go to
00:28:14
Peaches, which is this chicken joint.
00:28:17
You get fried chicken and a beer.
00:28:23
>> An uneasy silence over the podcast.
00:28:26
>> I was waiting for more.
00:28:28
>> What more do you need to say? I've sold
00:28:30
the hell out of it. Yeah, cuz you um you
00:28:33
you wrote one one of your books, one of
00:28:34
your 14 books, um The Man Who ate
00:28:36
Lincoln Road, uh which is a 3 km stretch
00:28:38
of road in Oakland with 55 food places
00:28:41
on and you ate you ate all of them.
00:28:45
>> Yeah.
00:28:45
>> Yes. In one year. Yeah. Um I was living
00:28:48
in Tiatu and
00:28:52
constantly being uh driven by my uh
00:28:54
partner at the time and our kid uh up to
00:28:58
Lincoln Road for various things. you
00:29:00
know, the kids always fall over. So, I
00:29:02
always was at the White Cross up there
00:29:04
and uh it's got lots of sort of big
00:29:06
boxes. So, we're up there, you know,
00:29:10
to 10 and so forth. And I was just like
00:29:13
fascinated by Lincoln Road
00:29:17
particularly. Um there was so much you
00:29:20
could eat on it. And I kept thinking
00:29:23
about it and thinking about it and how
00:29:25
we were always there and how this this
00:29:27
road seemed to me to be hold some sort
00:29:30
of secret to Oakland life
00:29:35
>> and I realized it was the food and I
00:29:38
thought to to discover the secret of it
00:29:42
would be to eat the food. Um, and so I
00:29:47
decided it would be a great writing uh
00:29:49
project and a personal kind of odyssey
00:29:52
would be to eat at every single joint
00:29:55
and uh record that experience
00:29:59
um in one year and and um called the
00:30:02
series The Man Who Ate Lincoln Road and
00:30:05
collected it into a book of that of that
00:30:09
same title. Um one of my favorite books.
00:30:13
>> A lot of food in it. Yeah, but it's it's
00:30:15
um it's an intriguing insight into your
00:30:17
mind because it's like it seems like a
00:30:18
good idea, but turn turning that into a
00:30:20
captivating um you know 80,000word
00:30:23
document that other people want to read
00:30:25
is another story altogether. Do you know
00:30:26
what I mean? Like taking taking the idea
00:30:29
and turning it into an actual full-size
00:30:32
book. It may not have seemed an obvious
00:30:34
idea for a book or a series, but um I'm
00:30:38
always like really interested in um
00:30:41
things which are right there in front of
00:30:43
us, you know. And maybe this is kind of
00:30:45
related in some ways, Dom, to not being
00:30:48
able to drive. You know, I'm not a big
00:30:51
explorer.
00:30:52
>> I go to courtrooms. You don't need to
00:30:55
drive to do that. You just sit there.
00:30:57
You're a passenger. It's my life as a
00:30:59
passenger.
00:31:01
And um with Lincoln Road, the the the
00:31:05
thing I'm trying to establish here is
00:31:08
that it was McDonald's, it was Burger
00:31:10
King, it was KFC, it was fish and chips,
00:31:12
it was Chinese, it was Indian and so
00:31:15
forth. All these things that everybody
00:31:17
eats. I really love the common
00:31:20
experience, you know. I find that really
00:31:22
interesting to read uh to write about
00:31:25
rather than obscure kinds of
00:31:27
experiences. pulking horn. Everyone was
00:31:30
interested about it. I'd like to write
00:31:32
about that.
00:31:34
>> Uh food. We all eat burgers. We all go
00:31:37
to McDonald's, you know. We all have the
00:31:40
um from cradle to grave. We have this
00:31:43
experience of the cheeseburger
00:31:47
of of of the breakfast meal.
00:31:50
>> Um let's write about that sort of thing.
00:31:54
>> Yeah.
00:31:55
>> You know, I wrote a book about birds.
00:31:57
how to watch a bird.
00:31:59
>> Um, we may not be entirely conscious of
00:32:02
them, but they absolutely all around us,
00:32:05
you know, this this this particular
00:32:08
country, too. You know, before
00:32:10
>> before there were people, there were no
00:32:12
mammals.
00:32:13
>> It was just birds.
00:32:14
>> Well, you mentioned um the stling before
00:32:16
on the the back window of the 2x
00:32:18
newsroom at 178 Broadway a but I feel
00:32:20
like you Yeah. You just have this
00:32:22
ability this uh
00:32:23
>> Did you just quote the address?
00:32:25
>> Yeah. Yeah. I'll never forget the
00:32:26
address. 178 Broadway.
00:32:27
>> There you go.
00:32:28
>> Yeah, it's a big part of my life.
00:32:30
>> Yeah.
00:32:31
>> Slither of your life. Two years.
00:32:33
>> But it was a big part of mine like over
00:32:35
a decade.
00:32:35
>> I guess good memories.
00:32:36
>> Was it a decade? Right. I guess it was a
00:32:38
sliver. It was crucial though. um my
00:32:41
first job as a journalist
00:32:44
>> um and realizing the or getting an
00:32:47
intimation of the possibilities
00:32:50
um of being able to turn journalism into
00:32:54
a kind of literature. Uh the f the
00:32:58
particular fascination with that is that
00:33:00
every story could be no longer than four
00:33:02
sentences.
00:33:04
And I I found that artistically really
00:33:07
interesting and satisfying how to
00:33:10
condense everything. So that like a poem
00:33:14
every word counted.
00:33:17
>> I found that so interesting. M
00:33:20
with your obsession with words, do you
00:33:22
when you listen to music, are you are
00:33:24
you like a a an overall sound guy or are
00:33:27
you a lyric guy?
00:33:28
>> Sound guy completely.
00:33:30
>> Yeah. Yeah. I remember reading an
00:33:32
interview with MC Jagger and somebody
00:33:35
had said to him, "Why do you slur your
00:33:37
words when you're singing?" This is like
00:33:40
a 1960s interview, I think. And he said,
00:33:43
"I don't want people to hear the words."
00:33:45
Oh, what a great answer. I don't want to
00:33:47
hear them.
00:33:50
But you mentioned Taylor Swift very
00:33:52
early on in this piece. So I'm I'm
00:33:53
guessing um from the the portrait we've
00:33:56
painted of Steve Broadier so far, you're
00:33:58
only aware that she exists because you
00:33:59
know you've got a daughter in that sort
00:34:00
of demograph. But um she's quite the
00:34:03
poet. Like some of her lyrics are just
00:34:06
goosebump worthy.
00:34:07
>> Yes, I do pick up on some of them. Yeah,
00:34:09
>> they are terrific. Yeah, she's got a uh
00:34:13
she's she's really terrific. what I can
00:34:16
what I can hear and what I can remember
00:34:18
of her lyrics. I love them, but the
00:34:20
little snatches, you know, uh I I I
00:34:24
mainly love the the sensitivity, the the
00:34:27
sound of it, the way she sings.
00:34:30
Beautiful voice. Um and you're aware
00:34:33
that this voice is sort of occasionally
00:34:35
enunciating really interesting words. Um
00:34:39
there's a song of hers called um
00:34:42
well the chorus anyway is about Romeo
00:34:44
and Juliet. What's that one?
00:34:47
>> And it's it's a sort of a standing.
00:34:49
Yeah. Love story.
00:34:50
>> Love story. Yeah. It's a standing joke
00:34:52
with me and Minka. That's my kid that
00:34:54
you know we'll we'll play it in the car.
00:34:56
She drives and and I'll sing along to
00:35:00
where she sings the word Juliet. That's
00:35:03
the only thing I'm ever picking up on.
00:35:05
Oh, I love the way she sings Juliet. and
00:35:08
she's going, you know, there's a whole
00:35:10
bunch of other words. Oh, yeah. Quite
00:35:12
aware of that. Don't know what they are,
00:35:14
though.
00:35:15
>> I was not expecting to have a chat with
00:35:17
Steve Bronny about Taylor Swift today,
00:35:19
but here we are. Just a couple of
00:35:20
middle-aged men
00:35:23
Swifties in disguise.
00:35:25
>> So, are you you're happy? So, you you
00:35:28
you're still with your your daughter's
00:35:30
the mother of your daughter?
00:35:32
>> No, no, no. We broke up and um I'm with
00:35:35
someone else. She's with someone else.
00:35:37
And um yeah, but uh Minka, our kid um
00:35:42
uh she's a huge part of our
00:35:45
>> huge part of our lives.
00:35:47
>> Yeah.
00:35:48
>> So um yeah, your brother Mark, older
00:35:51
brother, he died um last year of a brain
00:35:53
bleed
00:35:54
>> uh 69. We referenced that um Philip
00:35:56
Pinghorn sent you a text, which is the
00:35:58
Ford of the book. Um
00:36:00
>> yeah.
00:36:01
>> Can you remember? Yeah. Were you close?
00:36:04
He was an artist, right? Very good
00:36:05
artist. very good artist. Yeah, we were
00:36:07
pretty close. Um, it's a family of six.
00:36:11
I was the youngest, Mark was the next
00:36:13
youngest, but by five years. So, you
00:36:16
know, a bit of a gap there.
00:36:19
>> Um,
00:36:21
the others had, you know, pretty much
00:36:24
like left home by the time, you know, I
00:36:27
remember my own life kind of thing. And
00:36:30
it was just me and Mark.
00:36:34
And then not long after that, uh,
00:36:38
from what I remember of my own life, you
00:36:41
know, um, and I have a bad memory, like
00:36:44
super bad,
00:36:46
like shockingly bad, like Groundhog Day
00:36:49
bad,
00:36:50
>> you know, every day is like a a new day
00:36:53
to me. I can't remember the experience
00:36:56
previously. Um around about nine or 10
00:37:00
uh our dad
00:37:02
parents marriage broke up and our dad
00:37:04
left. So it was just me, my brother Mark
00:37:06
and my mom. And that's my main sort of
00:37:08
memory or or you know pattern of my
00:37:13
childhood is the three of us in this in
00:37:15
this house.
00:37:17
>> Um
00:37:20
yeah. Well gosh, you know, um I love all
00:37:24
my family, all my uh other brothers and
00:37:27
my one sister Jenny. Doesn't matter that
00:37:30
they're a lot older. Uh you catch up
00:37:32
with them as you're an adult. And it's
00:37:34
interesting, isn't it? You know, with
00:37:36
with with siblings, you I think you
00:37:38
maintain the same dynamic
00:37:41
>> as in you know, I'm always the youngest.
00:37:45
>> You still have that moment where you
00:37:46
feel like a little a little little boy
00:37:48
again.
00:37:49
>> It's it's
00:37:49
>> strange, isn't it? It is strange. You
00:37:51
you you have set roles. You know, my set
00:37:54
roles that I'm the youngest of the
00:37:56
family, even though we're all real old
00:37:58
people now.
00:37:59
>> Um but yeah, Mark, I was I was I suppose
00:38:04
I was particularly close to him being
00:38:07
the closest in age. Um
00:38:11
and uh
00:38:15
yeah, it's uh he he he he lived in
00:38:19
Kafia,
00:38:20
this very remote town on the west coast
00:38:23
of the North Island,
00:38:25
sort of what between Raglin and New
00:38:27
Plymouth, vaguely I guess you'd say.
00:38:30
And uh the family have been going there
00:38:32
quite a lot since he died to sort out
00:38:36
our affairs, mow the lawns, this sort of
00:38:38
thing.
00:38:39
And um
00:38:42
it's a bittersweet kind of thing. You
00:38:44
know, we go there a lot and I really
00:38:47
appreciate it uh being able to spend
00:38:50
this time with my um
00:38:53
various members of my family who go
00:38:55
there. You know, I love them to bits.
00:38:57
And um
00:38:59
you know, I'd have to sort of say that
00:39:01
not being able to drive means that I'm
00:39:05
you know, a kind of a remote figure. and
00:39:08
go, "Oh, you know, I'm I'm going to
00:39:10
drive to the mount, see everybody. Can't
00:39:13
do it, you know." Um,
00:39:16
and so, yeah, spending this time has
00:39:19
been great, but of course, we're doing
00:39:21
it because Mark's no longer there. And
00:39:23
that's that's a,
00:39:25
you know, has a definite sort of quality
00:39:27
of melancholy with every visit. Um I I
00:39:32
the the others uh they get B&Bs
00:39:36
or the motel in Kia and I I sleep in the
00:39:41
house.
00:39:42
>> Yeah. I sleep in Mark's house which is a
00:39:44
former
00:39:47
>> former bank.
00:39:48
>> Yes.
00:39:50
>> Bank of New Zealand. Dear old Mark, he
00:39:53
was a special guy. Very I think he's an
00:39:56
outstanding artist. He's been
00:40:00
Yeah, it's been a real revelation like
00:40:02
going through his work and my two nieces
00:40:05
have been cataloging it and so you're
00:40:07
developing this physical intimacy with
00:40:09
the work,
00:40:11
taking them out, cataloging them,
00:40:14
sending them to an art facility in
00:40:16
Cambridge and just realizing, you know,
00:40:19
how good he was, like just terrific. And
00:40:22
the
00:40:23
>> I always knew he was really industrious,
00:40:27
you know, this was his mission. He took
00:40:29
it really seriously. I guess it's
00:40:32
something, you know, I I I flatter
00:40:35
myself. I like to think that I can
00:40:37
relate to.
00:40:38
>> Yeah,
00:40:39
>> I take writing very seriously. I'm very
00:40:42
prolific, a very hard worker.
00:40:44
>> It's one thing you can't you can't, you
00:40:47
know, say that I'm not. I do work real
00:40:50
hard and Mark worked harder and he was
00:40:54
obviously much more of a pure artist
00:40:57
>> than than I am. He was relying entirely
00:41:00
on his imagination to come up with these
00:41:02
things.
00:41:05
>> Can you remember can you remember the
00:41:06
last conversation?
00:41:08
[Music]
00:41:11
>> Yeah. Yeah. He'd u he was a chatter box
00:41:15
that's for sure.
00:41:18
my chatter box.
00:41:20
>> You are today for a long form podcast.
00:41:22
That's the the opposite is far worse. I
00:41:24
had um at the beginning of this year I
00:41:26
had um Opie Bossam on famous jockey who
00:41:29
announced his retirement and he's he's
00:41:30
not a chatterbox and um it was like it
00:41:34
ended up being under under an hour like
00:41:35
the conversation was just exhausted
00:41:37
because he
00:41:37
>> did you did you talk a lot to
00:41:39
compensate? I found myself doing I there
00:41:43
there's this little I shouldn't call it
00:41:45
a hack because um that makes it seem
00:41:46
very transactional but I found with a
00:41:48
lot of guests um there's a thing called
00:41:50
a vulnerability exchange so if I leak
00:41:52
out a little bit of information about
00:41:53
myself it often promotes the guest to
00:41:55
open up um yeah so I found myself doing
00:41:58
that with OP like talk about some of my
00:42:01
you know things that I've been through
00:42:03
in the hope that it would open him up
00:42:04
and
00:42:04
>> a vulnerability exchange
00:42:07
dreadful person really where did you
00:42:10
come up with that termful self-help
00:42:12
book.
00:42:14
>> A vulnerability exchange ashamed of
00:42:16
yourself.
00:42:17
>> Yeah,
00:42:17
>> that's manipulative.
00:42:18
>> Yeah, it does. Yeah, actually, you're
00:42:20
right. In this sort of um in this sort
00:42:22
of environment, like I find in real
00:42:23
life, it's actually a very good thing
00:42:24
with close friends, like especially male
00:42:26
friends the same age. And yeah, someone
00:42:28
has to be the the person that starts
00:42:30
talking vulnerability to get the other
00:42:32
person to open up. But as soon as
00:42:33
there's microphones here, there is a
00:42:34
performative aspect to it. Yeah, you're
00:42:36
right. I'm I'm a piece of [ __ ]
00:42:37
>> You do it in real life, too, with your
00:42:39
friends. Do you?
00:42:40
>> Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:42:42
>> Are you the one who initiates these
00:42:43
things? Uh
00:42:44
>> I ideally not. I still find it very
00:42:46
difficult, but I've learned Yeah. from
00:42:47
some therapy and stuff. It is good to
00:42:49
have these conversations and try and
00:42:51
Yeah. allow yourself to be more
00:42:52
vulnerable.
00:42:53
>> Yeah. Yeah. I I can I just say I I I've
00:42:56
really enjoyed this interview. I like
00:42:58
the way you interview. You've got a a a
00:43:00
good mind.
00:43:02
>> Yeah. I think it's lively. Yeah. M
00:43:06
>> and you have the actually the main sort
00:43:08
of thing about you I think is that you
00:43:09
have this um and I really admire you
00:43:12
have this terrific sincerity about you.
00:43:15
>> Well yeah from my my uh extensive radio
00:43:18
career it was like 5 minute 10-minute
00:43:20
interviews. So, you go to a junket, you
00:43:22
have 10 minutes with Ed Sheeran or
00:43:23
Justin Bieber, whoever, and our goal is
00:43:25
to try and get some sort of a king hit,
00:43:27
you know, some something that's gonna
00:43:30
>> going to something beyond, oh, have you
00:43:31
tried Vegemite or what do you think in
00:43:33
New Zealand? Something that's going to
00:43:34
get you some external press coverage.
00:43:36
Um,
00:43:37
>> which put me in a a sort of corner where
00:43:39
I had to Well, well, I sort of I didn't
00:43:41
have to. I was a smartass, I guess. But
00:43:43
now with the long form, I can just be
00:43:45
more genuine and sincere and honest. So
00:43:48
would you for instance have
00:43:50
provocations?
00:43:52
>> What does that mean? How do you mean?
00:43:53
>> In your small what five minute whatever
00:43:56
interviews would you sometimes provoke?
00:43:58
>> Oh. Oh yeah. Like a like a Dennis Connor
00:44:01
Paul Holmes walk out. Oh, that would be
00:44:02
a dream scenario.
00:44:05
>> Someone throwing a glass of water over
00:44:06
you would be. Yeah.
00:44:11
>> But I look back now from the Yeah. at
00:44:13
the point of view of a 52-y old man and
00:44:14
it's like h
00:44:17
it's terrible.
00:44:18
>> Yeah.
00:44:19
>> Scoundrelous way to live your life.
00:44:21
>> Yeah. Have you had a glass of water
00:44:22
thrown over?
00:44:24
>> Never happened. Never happened.
00:44:26
>> Oh, I had a terrible one. Um was when I
00:44:29
was writing for Countdown magazine for
00:44:31
the teenage Dom Harveys of New Zealand.
00:44:34
Uh, I got sent to Sydney to cover a
00:44:38
concert by MLY crew when they were in
00:44:40
their palm
00:44:42
>> and yeah got escorted backstage to
00:44:45
interview Vince Neil
00:44:48
and the interview went kind of really
00:44:50
badly and he uh erupted into a a rage
00:44:56
and we were sitting down and he raised
00:44:59
himself to his full height which I think
00:45:00
is about 5'1. So, not exactly towering.
00:45:05
>> He's the original sex [ __ ]
00:45:08
>> Malignant, too. He picked up my tape
00:45:11
recorder and smashed it against the
00:45:12
wall.
00:45:13
>> Wow.
00:45:13
>> Yeah. And and I went over to and he
00:45:17
stormed off swearing and I I had good
00:45:21
instincts. I scured over to get the
00:45:23
tape. The tape recorder was a goner, but
00:45:26
I went over to scurry to to get the
00:45:28
tape. And these two security guards went
00:45:30
over and uh hit me and dragged me up.
00:45:36
>> Wow.
00:45:37
>> Wow. How how was that for you at the
00:45:38
time? Were you shaking?
00:45:40
>> Yeah, I was really upset. Yeah. I didn't
00:45:42
really enjoy the concert.
00:45:45
>> Not a fan of the music or just You were
00:45:47
a fan of the music before that point.
00:45:49
>> Oh yeah. Good band.
00:45:51
>> Yeah, undoubtedly. Gee, they were good
00:45:53
at that time. Um terrific. They were um
00:45:56
had just been eclipsed by GNR,
00:45:59
>> but you know, they could raise a mighty
00:46:02
racket,
00:46:04
>> uh in their own in their own right, but
00:46:06
yeah, I didn't enjoy that concert. I was
00:46:08
quite upset.
00:46:09
>> Do you have any other stories like that?
00:46:11
Who else through working on RTR
00:46:13
magazine, RTR Countdown magazine? Yeah.
00:46:16
Any other junkets? It's it's crazy to
00:46:18
think in the year 2025 that there was a
00:46:20
time where a magazine journalist would
00:46:22
be sent overseas to speak to someone.
00:46:25
>> Oh yeah, you're right. You know, I mean,
00:46:27
I was I was really I've been really
00:46:29
lucky with the timing as a as a
00:46:31
journalist. You know, I I was there for
00:46:33
the good years when print was king,
00:46:38
>> you know. I I remember when I I worked
00:46:40
at the Listener magazine, which is
00:46:41
probably just about the happiest uh job
00:46:45
I've ever had. I worked with my best
00:46:47
friend uh Finley McDonald. He was the
00:46:49
editor and I was the deputy editor. And
00:46:52
what a what a joy and what a pleasure it
00:46:54
was to to work there together. He's so
00:46:57
funny, you know. I was like weeping with
00:47:00
laughter at him at his jokes every day.
00:47:03
And um I remember one day uh
00:47:07
you know we were we were we were on
00:47:09
deadline
00:47:11
and um I was in I was sitting in with
00:47:15
Finn and uh in his office and we were
00:47:18
like it was Wednesday morning about to
00:47:20
put the paper to bed,
00:47:22
you know, and we were um we'd had like a
00:47:25
there was like a four-page story, a
00:47:28
really good one that we were just sort
00:47:29
of finessing
00:47:31
>> and a an ad rep came and he said, "Oh my
00:47:34
god, great news. You know, I've just got
00:47:37
this um double page spread from I think
00:47:40
it was like Sharp Electronics and it was
00:47:42
worth a fortune,
00:47:45
you know." Right? You know, and the only
00:47:48
things of been gone to the printers
00:47:50
apart from the story. Can you cut it
00:47:52
back and we'll put in this ad? And we h
00:47:56
you're out of your mind. [ __ ] off. You
00:47:59
know, this story is a piece of art. No,
00:48:01
not taking your money. Fair call. Fair
00:48:05
enough. And that was the way it was. You
00:48:08
know, you were turning down staggering
00:48:10
amounts of money because, you know,
00:48:13
editorial came first. We had the we had
00:48:15
the whip hand. Crazy to think about it,
00:48:18
>> you know, just crazy. And that wasn't
00:48:21
that long ago. We're talking about like
00:48:23
200, it's probably 2002,
00:48:27
>> guess 23 years ago is a while. But um
00:48:30
certainly at that time, you know, I I
00:48:32
had no idea. I guess other people might
00:48:35
have. I I had no idea that a revolution
00:48:38
was a coming
00:48:40
>> and it was going to change everything
00:48:43
completely. You know, magazines were
00:48:47
king back then. You know, they were
00:48:50
everywhere. They were thick with ads.
00:48:53
They sold a lot. you could um publish
00:48:56
really really
00:48:59
long stories
00:49:01
um from a a you know written by a a
00:49:05
staff of many
00:49:07
>> you know we're quite a big staff metro
00:49:09
did north and south
00:49:12
[Music]
00:49:13
none of those titles all of those titles
00:49:16
are still going and still doing really
00:49:18
good work but none of them have one
00:49:21
full-time journalist on staff
00:49:24
>> yeah and the readership numbers would be
00:49:25
considerably smaller than what they once
00:49:26
were. Have you thought about doing like
00:49:28
um like a a a like a your own sort of
00:49:30
payw wall thing like a substack or
00:49:32
something like that?
00:49:33
>> I thought you were going to say your own
00:49:34
podcast.
00:49:36
>> Well, you could.
00:49:37
>> You weren't going to go that far.
00:49:38
>> You could. Yeah. No, you could. Yeah,
00:49:40
but but I think I think a written
00:49:41
written word is more your your thing.
00:49:43
You'd probably do very well out of it.
00:49:45
>> I I've thought about it. Yeah. Someone
00:49:47
Yeah. Someone has uh mentioned it to me
00:49:50
and I thought, "Oh, gee. Um, what's a
00:49:53
substack? What what are what are what
00:49:55
are they? What are you doing?
00:49:56
>> I don't know if that's um it's kind of
00:49:57
like a blog.
00:49:58
>> Oh, yeah. I've got the a vague idea of
00:50:00
them. I've even read some actually, I
00:50:04
guess. But I I haven't I haven't sat
00:50:07
down to try and
00:50:09
figure it out. Yeah.
00:50:12
>> Get your daughter to set it up for you.
00:50:14
It'll be be second nature for her. She
00:50:16
>> There you go.
00:50:16
>> She'll watch a YouTube tutorial and have
00:50:18
it up. Well, I bet he could sort out a
00:50:20
gold card for me, too, and and and draw
00:50:22
up a list of podcasts to listen to.
00:50:25
>> You mentioned um Fin Lane McDonald
00:50:27
before uh as your best friend. I I um I
00:50:31
used to live just around the corner, I
00:50:32
think, from him and his um wife, Carol.
00:50:34
I seen at the cafe most weekends.
00:50:36
>> Yeah. Yeah. Um what would he say about
00:50:39
you as a best friend?
00:50:41
>> Oh, I I hope he'd be kind. I mean, we're
00:50:43
very close. So, I'm the godfather of his
00:50:46
son Will, who uh is now some sort of
00:50:51
avatar in in copyrightiting and
00:50:53
advertising. He won something at KHN.
00:50:56
>> Wow.
00:50:57
>> Recently, I haven't won an award in KHN.
00:50:59
How you doing with Khan, Tom?
00:51:01
>> Never been to Khn.
00:51:02
>> No.
00:51:03
>> I'm pretty sure I haven't won an award
00:51:05
there, though.
00:51:06
>> Uh oh, I hope he'd be I hope he'd be
00:51:09
kind. Yeah.
00:51:10
>> Are you
00:51:11
>> What would your best friend say about
00:51:12
you? He's not going to He's not going to
00:51:14
say anything mean, is he?
00:51:15
>> No. Well, no. No.
00:51:16
>> Who's your best friend?
00:51:19
>> Oh, I got a couple actually. A couple
00:51:21
both called Robert. There's a guy called
00:51:22
Robert Scott that worked at the Breeze
00:51:24
for a number of years and another guy
00:51:25
called Robert Dicki who's also in media.
00:51:28
>> Yeah.
00:51:28
>> What would they say? Complicated guy,
00:51:31
interesting guy.
00:51:33
>> I'd like
00:51:34
>> sincere guy.
00:51:35
>> I'd like to think um I don't know. I
00:51:38
don't know. It's hard, isn't it? It's
00:51:40
hard. This is a question I ask a lot of
00:51:42
my a lot of my um guests like towards
00:51:45
the end of the podcast. It's like what
00:51:46
three words would you like you know
00:51:48
people your friends friends and family
00:51:49
to say to you at your funeral like to
00:51:51
sum up your life.
00:51:52
>> Um but I I don't know if I could answer
00:51:54
it myself. Happy to ask it but don't
00:51:56
know if I could answer it.
00:51:57
>> What would you want them to be?
00:51:59
>> Three is it? Is that the parameter?
00:52:02
>> Um
00:52:11
Guess it's an exercise in sort of
00:52:12
flattery and conceit, isn't it? Uh,
00:52:16
>> well, it's just your best qualities, I
00:52:18
guess.
00:52:20
>> Oh,
00:52:22
fun, I guess. Sweet would be nice.
00:52:27
>> Um,
00:52:34
interesting.
00:52:36
>> Is that what your your daughter would
00:52:37
say? What would she say? You seem to
00:52:38
have a really good relationship with
00:52:39
her. E I talked about this at the
00:52:41
beginning. Some of the columns you've e
00:52:43
>> Yeah, we're pretty close.
00:52:44
>> Yeah.
00:52:45
>> Um
00:52:48
>> yeah, I was thinking about it when you
00:52:50
when you when you put the question,
00:52:52
which is a good one, isn't it? Um
00:52:55
yeah, I'd hope she'd say something like
00:52:57
sweet. Yeah.
00:53:00
>> Are you you a sweet guy? The guy sitting
00:53:02
in front of me today has been a sweet
00:53:04
guy. But the um yeah, sometimes with
00:53:07
that pen, you know, there is that
00:53:08
saying, the pen is mightier than the
00:53:09
sword and you have um stabbed a few
00:53:12
people with your pen.
00:53:13
>> The pen is mightier than the sweet. Um
00:53:17
>> Oh, I can be. I I I hope. Yeah.
00:53:20
>> How do you feel about the um about aging
00:53:22
and the aging process, I suppose,
00:53:24
especially it sort of crystallizes how
00:53:26
>> how um finite things are like when you a
00:53:29
sibling passes, I guess.
00:53:31
>> Real real good. Yeah. Real good. Uh
00:53:33
yeah. Yeah. It's It's nice. I like it.
00:53:36
Um I like it. Um I suppose the only sort
00:53:41
of thing I might say about it is that um
00:53:44
I'm um I'd be very loathed to ever be
00:53:50
become or to be thought of as grumpy. I
00:53:54
couldn't stand that. Hate that. And um
00:53:59
I've always thought though for a long
00:54:00
time that the the sort of enemy of of of
00:54:03
of anyone really of any age, but
00:54:09
particularly as you get older is um
00:54:12
bitterness.
00:54:13
>> I find that I find that
00:54:17
yeah, I'm scared of that actually. I I I
00:54:20
I when I detect that in other people, I
00:54:23
I'm upset by it. And um
00:54:28
yeah, it's it's like it's like the main
00:54:30
thing that I want to avoid in life other
00:54:34
than you know physical infirmity and so
00:54:36
on.
00:54:37
>> I think if you're that aware of it, you
00:54:38
will definitely be able to avoid it.
00:54:41
>> I think that's key, right?
00:54:42
>> Don't know. Not necessarily. You know,
00:54:44
uh you Yeah, not necessarily, but I hope
00:54:48
so. Yes.
00:54:49
>> There's um a quote I found from yours in
00:54:51
one of your columns which um which yeah,
00:54:53
I thought I'd highlight. I seem to
00:54:55
prefer the agitated life. Always put
00:54:57
myself in situations where happiness is
00:54:59
happiness seldom remains stable and I
00:55:01
find ways to complicate it.
00:55:03
>> God almighty. Really? Did I write that?
00:55:05
That's so accurate.
00:55:07
>> Why?
00:55:08
>> Criy.
00:55:09
>> Why? I I think um what troubled me about
00:55:11
that line is I'm I'm 52 now, so you've
00:55:14
got 13 years on me, which is going to it
00:55:15
sounds like a long time, but it's going
00:55:16
to creep up alarmingly quick. Um and I
00:55:19
can see parts of parts of myself in that
00:55:23
phrasing there. And I'd like to think by
00:55:25
by the time I get to 65, there'd be like
00:55:27
more of a sense of, you know, calm, I
00:55:29
guess.
00:55:33
>> You know what I mean?
00:55:34
>> I I I do know what you mean. And I'm
00:55:36
looking at you with narrowed eyes
00:55:38
because what I want to say to you is
00:55:40
that yes, I
00:55:43
to tell you the truth, I find a bit of a
00:55:45
bond between you and I. I'm sort of
00:55:47
recognizing something in you. Um, and I
00:55:51
would predict for you that uh, yeah, I I
00:55:54
think you will uh, will come to a
00:55:57
greater calmness,
00:55:58
>> but I I also think that if you think
00:56:01
you're going to put your own personal
00:56:03
sense of agitation behind you, dream on,
00:56:06
baby.
00:56:10
>> Yeah.
00:56:11
>> You you have a kind of a volatility
00:56:13
about you, which I like, but um, I don't
00:56:15
think it's going to go away.
00:56:16
>> Yeah.
00:56:16
>> What do you think? Fear.
00:56:20
Yeah, I guess so. But I'd like Yeah.
00:56:23
Yeah. I don't know. I feel you're just
00:56:24
always looking for this sense of calm,
00:56:25
but there's always going to be, you
00:56:27
know, I don't know. I don't know. You
00:56:30
just feel like you're going to reach a
00:56:31
certain point, but maybe that point is
00:56:33
just like a mirage.
00:56:34
>> It's a mirage.
00:56:36
>> Now, your daughter Minka, uh, who we've
00:56:38
mentioned a couple of times, so she's
00:56:39
you're an empty neester now.
00:56:41
>> Yeah.
00:56:41
>> Yeah. So, she's studying in Deneden.
00:56:44
>> Yes.
00:56:44
>> How you wrote about the how how anxious
00:56:47
you were about the airport farewell. How
00:56:48
was it?
00:56:52
>> About as about as bad as I I' I'd
00:56:56
thought. Yeah,
00:56:57
>> it was real sad. I uh
00:57:00
>> Did you hold it together for her or
00:57:02
>> No, no, I don't think so.
00:57:05
Um,
00:57:09
oh, I'm what I remember is is
00:57:12
immediately afterwards and um
00:57:16
h
00:57:18
as she went down the the thing to board,
00:57:21
I went and sat down
00:57:24
and this very nice woman was was sitting
00:57:26
there and she she's about your age, I
00:57:31
suppose, and she said, "Look,
00:57:34
I it gets easier. And she knew exactly
00:57:37
what was going on. She'd been must have
00:57:39
been watching, you know,
00:57:41
>> and I was weeping away. And she said,
00:57:43
"Look, it gets easier. I've sent two of
00:57:45
mine away. Um it never it's never not
00:57:49
hard, but it gets easier."
00:57:52
>> And she was so comforting. She was like,
00:57:54
"The the the comfort of strangers is a
00:57:57
true thing. People are so nice, you
00:57:59
know. People have got such sort of
00:58:01
>> mercy and grace about them." And um it's
00:58:04
one of the kind of lessons to tell you
00:58:06
the truth Dom of of what I found in in
00:58:09
journalism
00:58:11
is um
00:58:14
you know you you might not think it
00:58:16
because journalism is partially at least
00:58:18
a kind of a combative
00:58:21
kind of pastime
00:58:23
>> and that you know a definition of it is
00:58:26
that you're always going up to complete
00:58:28
strangers and asking them really pointed
00:58:30
and personal questions. There's almost a
00:58:33
kind of a hostility to it. But one of
00:58:36
the lessons I I think I have found in
00:58:38
journalism is
00:58:40
it's no more complex than this is just
00:58:42
how damn nice people are. People like to
00:58:44
talk.
00:58:46
People like to um
00:58:49
people like being people like being with
00:58:52
other people and and being approached
00:58:55
pretty generally.
00:58:58
And uh they um yeah, it's um
00:59:04
I wouldn't have like a a hit list of,
00:59:06
you know, the worst people I've ever
00:59:08
like interviewed or worst people I've
00:59:10
ever talked to.
00:59:13
You know, when I when I sort of have a a
00:59:15
general sort of amorphous idea of, you
00:59:18
know, interview subjects and people I've
00:59:21
interviewed, I just sort of get this
00:59:22
general sense of gee, people have been
00:59:24
really great. M
00:59:26
>> yeah there's um a quite I don't know if
00:59:28
it was originally from Michelle Obama
00:59:30
but um a variation of it at least that
00:59:32
she's got is um most people are hard not
00:59:33
to like up close
00:59:36
>> um now you you've been up close to some
00:59:38
terrible human beings like I'm thinking
00:59:40
Mark Lundy for example
00:59:41
>> oh Mark
00:59:43
>> oh I like I mean you know I mean is he
00:59:46
terrible we we don't know that I
00:59:49
>> I think it's been well well established
00:59:50
hasn't it
00:59:51
>> no well I mean two juries He's
00:59:59
>> how many Supreme Court appeals?
01:00:01
>> Yeah. Well, he, you know, he's he's done
01:00:04
his time certainly and he's, you know,
01:00:06
he's he's been parrolled and he's,
01:00:08
>> you know,
01:00:09
>> back with his back with his family. Um
01:00:12
Oh, you know, no, I I'm sorry. I won't I
01:00:16
won't I won't let that one rest. I I I
01:00:18
thought the um
01:00:20
I thought the prosecution of him, the
01:00:23
two prosecutions of him
01:00:26
>> um were uh were worrying. And I've
01:00:30
always thought that there were uh
01:00:31
considerable grounds
01:00:34
uh for a um not guilty uh verdict or not
01:00:39
guilty situation for that that there I'm
01:00:42
getting ahead of myself. Although there
01:00:44
were considerable doubt that he that he
01:00:46
was the person who caused the death of
01:00:49
his wife and child. Yeah. Yeah. Um
01:00:52
>> interesting. And no, not not you know, I
01:00:55
hung out with him uh a few times at one
01:00:58
one particular summer in between his two
01:01:00
trials. And while I didn't find him the
01:01:02
most sort of likable or most pleasant,
01:01:05
you know, of of men, um, he was an
01:01:08
interesting guy and he certainly wasn't
01:01:10
a a terrible person to behold. You know,
01:01:13
if anything, I thought he would
01:01:15
>> kind of inevitably damaged by the years
01:01:17
he had already
01:01:19
>> spent in in in prison.
01:01:21
>> Um, yeah, that's a that that
01:01:25
that's a you you will never know
01:01:28
>> kind of thing. Most of them are, you
01:01:30
know, Dom, um,
01:01:33
you know, Watson, Scott Watson, that's a
01:01:36
kind of a never know.
01:01:39
Bane, I guess, is a never know. You
01:01:42
know, a lot of them are. It's almost
01:01:44
been like a relief when you have the
01:01:47
very rare case
01:01:50
where it's not
01:01:53
open or it's not a you never know where
01:01:56
it's fairly freaking unequivocal that
01:02:00
yes,
01:02:02
they killed them.
01:02:05
>> There's only two that I can think of
01:02:07
that I've covered. Um Malcolm Raya
01:02:10
>> M
01:02:11
>> he was finally convicted
01:02:14
after serving you know an currently
01:02:17
serving an enormously long sentence for
01:02:19
being a multiple rapist. He was finally
01:02:21
convicted for the murder of Susan Budet
01:02:24
which you know who as we know Tayapora
01:02:26
was falsely
01:02:28
uh found guilty and sentenced and did
01:02:30
all that jail time when in fact it was
01:02:32
it was it was Raya and I went to that
01:02:35
particular trial. In fact, I went to the
01:02:37
poorer one, too.
01:02:40
But I went to the Raya one where he was
01:02:42
finally,
01:02:44
you know, faced with that charge.
01:02:48
And yeah, it was unlike any other trial
01:02:51
where it where it wasn't, you know, the
01:02:54
sort of tension of, oh gee, you know,
01:02:56
maybe they didn't do it. There's
01:02:58
reasonable doubt here. It was like never
01:03:00
a second. It was like, wow, bad guy. M
01:03:04
>> you really are a bad that what did you
01:03:06
call Lundy? Uh which I you know tried to
01:03:09
hold you up on a terrible person.
01:03:11
>> Yeah.
01:03:12
>> Yeah. Um Ray were
01:03:16
>> I mean even even Raya had like you know
01:03:18
redeeming qualities honestly. Um but
01:03:22
yeah what a what a
01:03:24
you know let's just say it like it is.
01:03:26
He was a terrible person. And the other
01:03:28
one was Jesse Kempson.
01:03:29
>> Oh the Grace Main.
01:03:31
>> Yeah the Grace Main. I mean The you know
01:03:34
the terrible thing about him was the
01:03:37
parallel with pulking horn. It was this
01:03:41
it was
01:03:42
>> what same lawyer the death of death.
01:03:45
>> Oh there is that it was the after
01:03:46
deathath conduct they call it what we
01:03:48
know did
01:03:50
>> with with grace and which he never
01:03:52
denied was just so awful so terrible. Um
01:03:57
and and one of the terrors of the
01:04:00
Pulkinghorn trial was what the the
01:04:03
prosecution were basically saying
01:04:06
>> what he you know in their version of
01:04:09
events what he must have done with
01:04:10
Pauline after she had died and this
01:04:13
whole sort of rigmarole of of
01:04:16
transporting the body and maneuvering
01:04:18
the body which we know Kempson did cuz
01:04:21
he never denied that. And of course,
01:04:23
Phil Pulking wants you, well, I didn't a
01:04:25
I didn't kill my wife and b I I didn't
01:04:28
do all these gruesome things to stage a
01:04:31
suicide.
01:04:32
>> But yeah, that was the parallel.
01:04:34
>> What sort of if I mean it may not have
01:04:36
had any, but what sort of impact has has
01:04:38
all following all these cases so closely
01:04:40
had on your mental health? Like I'm
01:04:42
thinking of like jurors that get
01:04:44
selected for a big case, they generally
01:04:46
get like a an exemption for maybe life
01:04:48
after that to be called up for jury
01:04:49
service ever again. And you're sort of
01:04:50
willingly
01:04:51
>> putting yourself in these positions.
01:04:55
>> None.
01:04:56
>> No.
01:04:57
>> None. Negligible. No. Uh
01:05:02
you know um
01:05:04
>> cuz you're just able to separate
01:05:06
yourself from the
01:05:08
>> you do separate yourself. You you are
01:05:10
you are separate from the story. You are
01:05:13
not the story. It would be um a terrible
01:05:16
sort of arrogance in a way to think that
01:05:19
you were you know you're sitting in
01:05:21
courtroom with people you know the
01:05:24
families or closely tied widows people
01:05:28
like that of of the accused and the and
01:05:31
the victim
01:05:33
>> they're the ones who are living it. It
01:05:35
would be remiss of me to to say that I'm
01:05:38
living it too.
01:05:40
>> So you know it's had negligible effect.
01:05:42
There was there had been a time
01:05:45
uh fairly quite recently where I thought
01:05:47
ah
01:05:50
I just couldn't do it anymore. It was
01:05:51
just quite a bit too bleak. It wasn't it
01:05:54
wasn't derailing me in any sense. I just
01:05:57
thought I need to do something else.
01:06:00
>> Um and then just as I thought that
01:06:02
poking horn came along.
01:06:04
>> You're like one more. One more.
01:06:06
>> Yeah.
01:06:08
>> There's always going to be one more,
01:06:09
isn't there?
01:06:10
>> I don't think so. I know it's a good
01:06:12
point to make, but no, I don't think so.
01:06:14
This was and and that's a that's a
01:06:18
comment on the unusuality and uniqueness
01:06:22
of this particular trial.
01:06:24
>> You know, there had never been anything
01:06:26
like that one before.
01:06:28
>> Mhm.
01:06:28
>> Nothing.
01:06:29
>> Yeah.
01:06:30
>> You know, like sometimes you like catch
01:06:32
yourself thinking, "Oh, am I imagining
01:06:34
it?" you know, am I am I just like some
01:06:36
sort of news hack who is inflating it or
01:06:41
conflating it into something bigger than
01:06:43
it is? And then, you know, you'd be
01:06:45
having a yarn with a prosecutor or
01:06:47
somebody or someone like that and they
01:06:48
go, "Criy, you know, never been anything
01:06:51
like this, has there?" And you go, "Wow,
01:06:52
you think that, too?" And everybody
01:06:54
thought it
01:06:56
>> who was involved with the case. Um,
01:06:59
so highly unlikely there will be, you
01:07:02
know, another one like it. Yeah, there
01:07:05
will always be another murder trial.
01:07:07
>> Um,
01:07:09
>> nothing like this one. Nothing. Nothing.
01:07:12
It was um
01:07:16
it was so vivid
01:07:18
and so um
01:07:23
so middle class.
01:07:25
>> Middle class.
01:07:26
>> Yeah.
01:07:27
I would have thought more sort of upper
01:07:29
class
01:07:30
>> like you talk in the book about him
01:07:32
selling um like a is it a Macan a Colin
01:07:35
Macan painting to pay for the legal fees
01:07:37
which were a couple of million dollars
01:07:39
and it does make me wonder like you
01:07:40
mentioned you talk about Lundy before if
01:07:42
if he had the access to pay for say a
01:07:44
Ron Mansfield or I suppose it would have
01:07:46
been a Greg King at the time or Mike
01:07:48
Mike Bang whoever it happened to be like
01:07:50
would he have
01:07:51
>> no he had access to
01:07:53
>> perhaps the first trial lawyer was a bit
01:07:56
lacking But in the retrial, he had a guy
01:07:59
called David Hisop,
01:08:00
>> then a QC,
01:08:03
um, New Zealand guy who was living in
01:08:04
London. And man, did that guy fight. He
01:08:08
put up a really good defense of him. I
01:08:10
thought it was a sterling job. And, um,
01:08:14
he must have come close,
01:08:17
>> you know, to getting that one over the
01:08:18
line.
01:08:20
>> Um,
01:08:21
don't think he could have done better at
01:08:23
that time really. Uh, I thought he was
01:08:25
superb, his lop. He did such interesting
01:08:28
things, you know. He I often think about
01:08:31
this one particular thing, Dom, where um
01:08:36
it was it was I've never I'd never seen
01:08:38
anything quite like that.
01:08:41
They the prosecution
01:08:46
called one of the witnesses and it was
01:08:49
the office off officer in charge of the
01:08:52
murder investigation.
01:08:54
So he arrives
01:08:57
in court and he's got like a lackey with
01:09:00
him and the lackey's job he's got one of
01:09:03
those sort of wheelbarrows
01:09:05
with all these documents thousands of
01:09:08
documents
01:09:10
you know he's rides in full uniform
01:09:13
sits himself there in the witness box
01:09:16
the lackey is there stacking these boxes
01:09:18
so he can refer to them
01:09:21
you know
01:09:23
prosecution examines him. Doesn't take
01:09:26
that long. You know, there we got to say
01:09:30
just a few things, few damning things
01:09:32
and that's it.
01:09:35
Reason he's brought them in is for the
01:09:36
defense cross exam. He's knows he's
01:09:38
going to get flailed within an inch of
01:09:40
his life and he's come prepared
01:09:43
and his lop goes up to him strokes.
01:09:49
How's it going? Yeah, pretty good.
01:09:53
Thank you. H Okay. And uh you were
01:09:58
officer in charge, weren't you? Yes.
01:10:00
Yes, I was.
01:10:03
Right. Oh, thank you for coming in.
01:10:09
It's a condensed version,
01:10:12
but that is pretty much it. The lackey
01:10:15
reappears. Have to whistle him out. He'd
01:10:18
left the courtroom for the day. whistle
01:10:20
him back in to stack these things again.
01:10:23
And the guy was out and and um you know
01:10:27
you his lot was not doing a terrifically
01:10:30
good job of concealing a little smirk,
01:10:33
>> you know. And I said, "What'd you do
01:10:35
that for?" He said, "I didn't need him.
01:10:38
We didn't need him, you know."
01:10:41
>> And uh but he loved the comedy of it. He
01:10:44
loved the drama of it. Everyone was like
01:10:46
prepared for days and days.
01:10:51
I wouldn't then say that it backfired
01:10:53
because he didn't get the verdict that
01:10:54
he wanted, but um yeah, sorry. The point
01:10:58
is um
01:11:00
um Lundy was able to engage him and he
01:11:03
did a great job and it made no
01:11:05
difference that he was a workingclass
01:11:07
stiff as opposed to
01:11:09
>> to to Phil who um could afford um Ron
01:11:14
Mansfield and Mansfield did do a great
01:11:16
job.
01:11:18
Um, all the same. Uh, I called him
01:11:20
middle class. I mean, I don't He's not
01:11:23
like rich list rich.
01:11:25
>> No,
01:11:26
>> you know,
01:11:26
>> no, no, no. But if you've if you've got
01:11:30
artwork that you can sell to pay for
01:11:31
your millions of dollars of legal fees,
01:11:33
you're doing better than most.
01:11:34
>> He's doing pretty well.
01:11:36
>> He is doing pretty well.
01:11:39
>> But, um,
01:11:40
>> he can afford that sweet puff.
01:11:45
>> There's the slogan on his meth pipe,
01:11:47
right? The slogan on the meth pipes.
01:11:49
>> Well, Pauline's Pauline's meth pipe, but
01:11:51
he never smoked it.
01:11:53
>> That's right.
01:11:54
>> Yeah. So, what do you what do your days
01:11:56
look like now?
01:11:57
>> What's an average day for Steve Bronny?
01:11:59
>> Oh, I work hard.
01:12:00
>> Yep. Just write.
01:12:01
>> Oh, yeah. I write and I interview. I
01:12:04
work from home.
01:12:05
>> Uh been a slight sort of change in my
01:12:08
career setup. Um
01:12:11
>> uh was made redundant by the Herald back
01:12:13
in April, May or something like that. Um
01:12:18
but it was it's not a vast sort of
01:12:20
difference. Uh the entire time I had
01:12:22
been with them which was for 10 years uh
01:12:25
I worked for them three days a week not
01:12:27
the whole five so I could do other
01:12:29
things. Um I'm the books editor of a
01:12:32
section called newsroom and that takes
01:12:35
up a lot of my time. Um this book uh
01:12:41
took up a lot of time and continues to
01:12:43
do so mentally. You know, I think about
01:12:44
it a lot honestly. Uh, and so yeah, I I
01:12:49
uh now do um freelancing.
01:12:51
>> Think about it a lot
01:12:52
>> for the listener magazine.
01:12:53
>> Think about it a lot in what way?
01:12:56
>> Like the book itself or the trial?
01:12:57
>> Both. Both.
01:13:00
>> Um, yeah, it's um
01:13:06
it's h it's never far away from my
01:13:10
thoughts. And I don't mean that in any
01:13:12
kind of like I'm haunted. M
01:13:14
>> way
01:13:16
um
01:13:18
just you know the role that you have
01:13:21
that I I had to play in in in that as uh
01:13:25
watching the trial and writing about it
01:13:27
for the herald at the time and then
01:13:29
writing this book subsequently
01:13:32
>> that's you know it's a I don't know if
01:13:36
it's an important role
01:13:38
>> but certainly a responsible one
01:13:41
>> you know Um,
01:13:44
and it's a test.
01:13:47
>> Um, it's a test and and I often sort of
01:13:51
think about how did I go
01:13:55
with that test? You know, I I I have a
01:13:58
sort of a uh
01:14:01
totalitarian
01:14:03
view of life in some ways that I think
01:14:07
it's like a constant test
01:14:10
and
01:14:12
You know, we're passing or we're failing
01:14:14
each godamn day, which sounds like a
01:14:17
rather joyless existence when I put it
01:14:19
like that.
01:14:20
>> Yeah, it does.
01:14:22
>> How are you doing? Are you passing
01:14:25
>> today?
01:14:26
>> In general.
01:14:28
>> Oh, I never think about the in general.
01:14:30
It's always it's always like day by day.
01:14:32
>> Right now. Right now. And um
01:14:38
>> you know after I go home from this I
01:14:41
I'll I'll be worrying about how did how
01:14:44
did I get on with the test of this
01:14:46
podcast with Dom? Gee, I shouldn't have
01:14:48
said that. And oh, he probably thought I
01:14:50
was a total phony when I said that. Uh
01:14:53
right now though, um I'm enjoying it
01:14:55
tremendously.
01:14:57
>> I'm enjoying it too. I'm loving it. Um I
01:15:00
don't know how we got to the London
01:15:01
stuff. We took a detour before. Yeah, we
01:15:03
were talking about your daughter. There
01:15:04
there was another line actually a couple
01:15:06
of lines from a couple of columns um
01:15:08
which which I loved. Um yeah, lately
01:15:12
I've I've taken to wandering into her
01:15:13
bedroom to experience the really great
01:15:15
feeling of my heart breaking into little
01:15:17
pieces. So what's what's in the bedroom
01:15:19
now?
01:15:20
>> Is it still is it like a is it still
01:15:22
made up the way she left it or have you
01:15:25
commandeered it as a an office or
01:15:28
it
01:15:29
>> No, I haven't commandeered it. It's
01:15:30
still her bedroom and um it's it's not a
01:15:34
shrine or anything like that. Uh
01:15:39
you know it's pretty much as as she left
01:15:42
it
01:15:43
>> but um
01:15:45
was the breaking my heart breaking into
01:15:48
little pieces. Was it was that in the
01:15:50
context of she's left home now?
01:15:52
>> I think that was before she left home.
01:15:54
So you're just imagining how it's going
01:15:55
to feel.
01:15:56
>> Oh gee. Really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, well
01:15:58
that that prediction came to pass.
01:16:03
>> How um the these these these columns,
01:16:05
they're lovely. It's like a a snapshot
01:16:07
of um your your relationship with her
01:16:09
through the years.
01:16:10
>> Um yeah. Does she does she is she at
01:16:13
that does she like them or is she at
01:16:14
that age where she's
01:16:16
>> Oh, yeah. She's been she's been reading
01:16:18
them for years. Yeah, she's she's she's
01:16:20
quite conscious of them. Um
01:16:23
>> I think she likes them. Um
01:16:28
yeah. Yeah, I think she likes them. She
01:16:31
um she's studying law at at Otago and
01:16:35
I'm sure she's going to be very good at
01:16:36
that. But um
01:16:41
you know there's a there's a it's not a
01:16:43
disappointment
01:16:45
but yeah it's not that strong but I you
01:16:49
know I definitely wished
01:16:52
I I I had hoped
01:16:54
I had wishes that she would go into
01:16:56
writing because you know everybody who
01:17:00
reads
01:17:01
avidly and she was you know she's a big
01:17:04
reader likes to write
01:17:06
>> and her own writing at school was was
01:17:09
sensational honestly.
01:17:12
Yeah. I remember once I took her aside
01:17:14
and said, "Look, we need to have a
01:17:16
serious talk here. Um,
01:17:19
this thing you've written is so good
01:17:23
that you've plagiarized it, haven't you?
01:17:25
You've it's someone else's writing." And
01:17:28
she said, "What are you talking about?"
01:17:30
And it was it was Yeah, it was
01:17:32
chillingly good. She's very very gifted,
01:17:34
very fluent,
01:17:36
um, thoughtful, good words, good
01:17:39
sentences.
01:17:40
Well, you know, I I guess that's all
01:17:42
going to come in in in very effective
01:17:45
use as a lawyer.
01:17:47
>> What sort of law does she want to do?
01:17:49
>> She doesn't know quite yet. Yes, just
01:17:50
first year.
01:17:52
>> Interesting. Um, this is probably over
01:17:54
analyzing or
01:17:55
>> possibly criminal.
01:17:56
>> Yeah, possibly. Well, in in a in a sense
01:17:58
like this again probably overthinking
01:18:00
it, but um yeah, maybe that's something
01:18:02
to make you proud
01:18:03
>> cuz she knows what a you know what a big
01:18:06
interest it is for you.
01:18:07
>> Yeah, I guess. Yeah, I I've introduced
01:18:10
her to the odd um prosecutor,
01:18:13
>> you know, uh she's come into court
01:18:17
>> not during a trial. Um just so happened,
01:18:20
you know, I said, "Oh, come in. Come in
01:18:21
and see what it's like." And you know,
01:18:24
she did a couple of times and both times
01:18:26
it was like in recess or something like
01:18:28
that.
01:18:28
>> Um, but she got a little feel of it. Um,
01:18:32
oh, you know, she what whatever you
01:18:34
know, whatever she does or whatever she
01:18:36
doesn't, you know, I'm terrifically
01:18:40
proud of my kid. Yeah. Love it to
01:18:42
pieces.
01:18:43
>> Doesn't have to do anything.
01:18:46
>> What would you say your best and worst
01:18:47
habits are?
01:18:50
best habit would be um my work ethic.
01:18:56
>> Um and my general sort of busyiness, you
01:19:00
know. Um
01:19:02
uh my girlfriend refers to it as tasks.
01:19:06
Oh, there you are doing your tasks.
01:19:11
So I never I basically almost never sit
01:19:14
still. I'm like doing tasks around the
01:19:16
house, the housework, various bits and
01:19:18
pieces.
01:19:19
>> Active relaxer it's called these days.
01:19:20
>> Yeah, pardon.
01:19:21
>> It's there's a label for it. It's called
01:19:22
active relaxing.
01:19:24
>> Active relaxing.
01:19:25
>> Yeah. It's like a form of uh often um
01:19:27
yeah considered a form of like ADHD.
01:19:30
>> You and your phrases.
01:19:33
>> Is that a Michelle Obama one?
01:19:36
>> No, it's well known actor.
01:19:37
>> Terrible. I really like you, but I do
01:19:39
seem to be giving you digs every now and
01:19:41
then, but they're affectionate. I assure
01:19:43
you.
01:19:43
>> I like that. I like it.
01:19:45
>> Um
01:19:47
uh so that that would be my my best
01:19:49
habit that I'm manically busy
01:19:52
>> and and like to achieve things. Worst
01:19:54
habit. Oh, I guess it's related really.
01:19:58
Uh anxiety. I'm very anxious person.
01:20:00
>> Yeah. Is that a habit?
01:20:03
>> It's a trait, I guess.
01:20:04
>> It's a trait or a defect.
01:20:06
>> Yeah. What's your like what's your inner
01:20:08
voice in a critic like?
01:20:09
>> Oh, worst habit would be losing things.
01:20:11
That that's a that's a habit. Yeah. I
01:20:13
can't find anything. Yeah, I I you know,
01:20:15
I said before that, you know, I have
01:20:17
like no memory.
01:20:19
>> Oh, where did I put that thing a minute
01:20:21
ago? And I can't even picture it.
01:20:24
>> No memory.
01:20:25
>> You don't even drive, so you don't even
01:20:26
have car keys to lose.
01:20:28
>> That's one less thing. One less thing,
01:20:31
isn't it?
01:20:31
>> Yeah.
01:20:33
>> Are you um When was the last time you
01:20:35
cried? Was it when you dropped your
01:20:36
daughter off at the airport? Are you Are
01:20:38
you quite an emotion? Do you find you're
01:20:39
getting yourself more emotional as you
01:20:40
get older? cried five minutes ago.
01:20:44
>> Um,
01:20:46
yeah. I'm very emotional. I'm very weepy
01:20:48
person.
01:20:48
>> Always been that way or is that
01:20:49
>> Yes.
01:20:50
>> Yeah.
01:20:50
>> Yes. Yes.
01:20:52
>> Very weepy.
01:20:54
>> What about fears? What are you afraid
01:20:55
of?
01:20:57
>> Oh, a lot.
01:20:59
>> Back to the anxiety.
01:21:02
>> Oh, a great deal. Um, no fears of uh the
01:21:07
bigger things like like death
01:21:10
>> or whatever. Um oh lots of fears you
01:21:13
know um
01:21:16
[Music]
01:21:17
it's an anxiety slashfear of of
01:21:22
a moment's inattention
01:21:24
>> and a moment's forgetfulness and what
01:21:27
consequences of that might be
01:21:30
>> that's got to be related to why I don't
01:21:32
drive right
01:21:34
>> I I I I sometimes like dream
01:21:37
>> about oh I'm driving
01:21:40
And the next thing, you know, I'll I'll
01:21:44
I'll forget what I'm doing. I, you know,
01:21:46
my mind will wander and and I'm steering
01:21:49
off the road in in the dream and killing
01:21:53
someone.
01:21:54
>> Jeez.
01:21:55
>> Yeah.
01:21:57
>> Do you have any regrets?
01:21:59
>> Oh, tons.
01:22:02
>> Yeah.
01:22:04
>> Well, I think you got anyone that says
01:22:05
they they don't have any hasn't lived
01:22:07
much of a life.
01:22:08
>> The too few to mention
01:22:10
line. Um, oh yes, no. Lots from from
01:22:15
from
01:22:17
since whenever.
01:22:20
>> What about future goals?
01:22:22
>> H
01:22:25
yes.
01:22:26
Yes. Um,
01:22:36
I um I have this like probably
01:22:40
unachievable ambition or goal that I'm
01:22:44
living in a um extremely small town
01:22:49
and all I'm doing is reading,
01:22:53
gardening, which I absolutely love
01:22:56
indoor plants, vegetable patch, and
01:23:01
sleeping. And I'm not writing anything.
01:23:06
That's a that's a goal. That's me like a
01:23:10
like a um
01:23:14
like a uh like I've fixed
01:23:17
the curse. I've lifted the curse of
01:23:21
writing.
01:23:22
>> Is it a realistic dream?
01:23:23
>> No.
01:23:25
>> No, probably not. M
01:23:27
>> oh, you never know. Um, so I have that
01:23:30
goal. That's something to sort of look
01:23:32
forward to. You know, it's like a even
01:23:34
if it's unattain unattainable, it gives
01:23:37
me a a kind of a piece.
01:23:39
>> Um, because, you know, I mean, obviously
01:23:42
I, you know, I I I love writing. I like
01:23:46
it a great deal. I enjoy it. It's so
01:23:48
interesting.
01:23:50
It's you know the continual puzzle
01:23:54
of it
01:23:56
and you never solve it but you um find
01:24:00
some nice arrangements
01:24:03
>> I think but apart from all that you know
01:24:06
it is agitating
01:24:10
you know it's agitating
01:24:13
because the form in which I writing
01:24:15
which which is journalism it's about
01:24:16
real life and real people
01:24:20
It's not fiction. It's not made up.
01:24:23
It's not talking about people who don't
01:24:25
exist. It's talking about people who
01:24:27
damn well do exist.
01:24:30
>> And often in very extreme circumstances
01:24:34
and private circumstances which have
01:24:36
been made public, i.e. murder trials.
01:24:38
>> Yeah.
01:24:39
>> All sorts of things. All interviews are
01:24:41
you know obviously do with people
01:24:43
>> and and so that's agitating you know.
01:24:46
And I I have this sort of um
01:24:51
um urge to um
01:24:57
make the writing uh um
01:25:01
as kind of uh if this is the right way
01:25:03
of putting it, it's kind of lifelike
01:25:06
>> uh as possible.
01:25:09
So it's lifelike to what I actually
01:25:12
think
01:25:13
about someone or something
01:25:16
and the way uh that that person
01:25:22
um
01:25:24
is is is seen I suppose and um
01:25:29
you know you're inviting a whole world
01:25:30
of trouble in in that you know like you
01:25:35
know some sometimes the consequences are
01:25:37
nice though and it's not like like I'm a
01:25:39
bad guy always writing bad things. Not
01:25:41
at all. But um and you know there are
01:25:43
nice consequences. The other day I wrote
01:25:45
a uh
01:25:48
I have this weekly series called The
01:25:50
Secret Diary
01:25:52
>> and you're essentially choosing the one
01:25:54
person who's been in the news most that
01:25:57
week who's done something remarkable.
01:26:00
Last week was pretty easy. Uh the big
01:26:03
news maker of the week was that fell Ian
01:26:05
Taylor. open letter to just ad which you
01:26:08
know it was huge.
01:26:11
um oh wow I'll write a secret
01:26:15
uh letter that he's written as a satire
01:26:20
and uh get this email few days later
01:26:27
uh from Ian Taylor
01:26:30
and he oh
01:26:33
is open up the attachment
01:26:35
and um what he did is that he wrote a uh
01:26:39
a response
01:26:41
to my um parody of him
01:26:44
>> and it's it's
01:26:47
put it this way. He's been a really good
01:26:49
sport about it and the thing he's
01:26:51
written is it it's like an open letter
01:26:54
to me like dear Steve.
01:26:58
>> It's pretty funny. I have to I give him
01:27:00
credit for that. It's pretty funny.
01:27:03
>> He uh he totally took it on the chin.
01:27:06
He's laughed it off. uh he's responded
01:27:08
to it in in very good kindness, you
01:27:12
know, and uh yes, I've published it
01:27:16
>> as a result at Newsroom.
01:27:18
>> Fantastic.
01:27:19
>> Do Yeah. Do do you people that you write
01:27:21
about, do you with your anxiety, do you
01:27:23
worry about what they're going to say
01:27:24
like this this Pinghorn book, like do
01:27:26
you worry about what Pauline's family or
01:27:28
friends or Philip himself will think of
01:27:30
it?
01:27:30
>> Yes.
01:27:31
>> Yes.
01:27:32
>> Yes. Um
01:27:34
>> well, it's good that you keep putting
01:27:35
yourself out there in spite of that.
01:27:38
Yeah,
01:27:39
>> because it could be really debilitating.
01:27:41
>> Yeah, I um
01:27:45
it is worrying. Um you know, in a in a
01:27:48
in a a book in particular, you know, um
01:27:53
seems to have a greater sort of
01:27:55
concentration of worry about it,
01:27:58
>> you know, with something that you write
01:28:00
for the newspapers.
01:28:02
At least it's like
01:28:05
it's there and then it's gone.
01:28:06
>> Mhm.
01:28:08
>> You know, the agenda moves on,
01:28:11
yesterday's papers, all that kind of
01:28:13
thing. Um,
01:28:16
you know, I I had this series once. I
01:28:18
was at the Sunday Star Times and I was
01:28:20
writing a profile of somebody every
01:28:23
week, the news maker of the week. and
01:28:27
they'd be quite long form sort of
01:28:29
interviews and that I'd write them up
01:28:32
and send them in on a Friday, they'd be
01:28:36
published on a Sunday and the Saturday
01:28:38
was just hell.
01:28:40
>> You know, the story had gone. It was
01:28:42
about to be published. You couldn't stop
01:28:44
it.
01:28:45
>> So, every Saturday, and I think it went
01:28:46
on, I did the series for maybe 18
01:28:49
months, 20 months,
01:28:51
>> was just a nightmare of like worrying
01:28:54
like why did I do that? Why did I write
01:28:56
that
01:28:58
>> about this person? And um I don't
01:29:02
remember what the consequences were. I I
01:29:04
don't know if anyone like went ballistic
01:29:06
or or whatever. Um
01:29:09
I think I got sued. I probably remember
01:29:12
that, wouldn't I?
01:29:14
>> Unless you were shielded. Shielded by
01:29:16
the company.
01:29:17
>> Yeah. Oh, it's not much of a shield
01:29:19
actually. You'd get dragged into it if
01:29:21
they were. I don't think the company
01:29:23
ever got sued as a result of those those
01:29:25
profiles. But um
01:29:29
yes, you did well to pick out that quote
01:29:31
about um was it I live an agitated life.
01:29:35
>> Was that what it was?
01:29:36
>> Yeah. Where was that?
01:29:37
>> That was a good one.
01:29:38
>> Yeah. I seem to prefer the agitated
01:29:40
life. Always putting myself in
01:29:41
situations where happiness seldom
01:29:42
remains stable and I find a way to
01:29:44
complicate it.
01:29:44
>> Bloody hell.
01:29:45
>> Yeah.
01:29:46
>> Yeah. This this this young man here.
01:29:48
>> Yeah. How how is he the same and how is
01:29:50
he different to the man sitting in front
01:29:52
of me today?
01:29:53
>> Uh Dom's just handed over a photograph
01:29:56
of me at the age of 28.
01:30:01
>> I am sitting in a chair wearing a
01:30:04
sleeveless pullover, thinking very hard
01:30:07
and pressing the rubber end of a pencil
01:30:11
against my forehead.
01:30:14
Um,
01:30:15
>> thanks for that by the way for
01:30:17
>> for sure
01:30:18
>> for the listeners.
01:30:19
>> Um,
01:30:22
and I'm very thin thinner even than now.
01:30:27
>> You look look a bit like Art Garcle.
01:30:29
>> Do you think so?
01:30:31
>> Um,
01:30:33
yes. I was uh
01:30:36
yeah, editor of a a small newspaper in
01:30:38
Wellington called Capital Times. We had
01:30:41
our our offices in a uh building in
01:30:46
Mount Victoria and above the offices
01:30:52
uh the landlord had uh a bowling alley
01:30:56
which he'd abandoned
01:30:58
and um when I was stuck for a story I
01:31:02
would do two things. one caught there in
01:31:05
the act of pressing a pencil against my
01:31:09
head to think about things deeply or I
01:31:11
would go upstairs and bowl by myself and
01:31:14
um after really late hours and I'd be
01:31:18
bowling at 3:00 a.m.
01:31:23
>> deserted ghostly bowling alley.
01:31:27
>> Um but your question was what was I like
01:31:30
then?
01:31:30
>> Yeah. How are you the that guy there in
01:31:33
his 20s?
01:31:34
>> How is he the same as you now? And how
01:31:35
is he different?
01:31:40
[Music]
01:31:41
>> Still the same work ethic.
01:31:43
>> Yeah, I was real busy then.
01:31:45
>> Yeah, that's that's that's the same. Um
01:31:49
Oh, he had a cat. I have a cat. He was
01:31:53
crazy about that cat. I'm crazy about my
01:31:56
cat.
01:31:58
um he was a um
01:32:01
a lot more uh hostile
01:32:06
>> character than than I am with with age.
01:32:10
Um
01:32:12
you know, I'm often like consciously
01:32:14
saying to myself, uh don't pick that
01:32:17
fight,
01:32:19
>> put that axe down, walk away from that
01:32:23
knife
01:32:24
>> constantly.
01:32:26
Whereas previously that guy like where's
01:32:29
the axe?
01:32:31
>> I know it's already I left it somewhere.
01:32:33
Damn it.
01:32:34
>> Got to go for it. Um it's, you know, I
01:32:38
justified it. There's no justification
01:32:40
for whatsoever really, but I justified
01:32:42
it because it seemed to fit the um what
01:32:44
I thought then of the spirit
01:32:46
>> of the times. Wellington in the 1980s
01:32:49
was a pretty um tough, edgy
01:32:52
>> kind of place. Uh unemployment was high.
01:32:56
They were forever knocking down
01:32:57
buildings that seemed to be like a hobby
01:32:59
of property developers. So there was
01:33:01
always this sort of sense of
01:33:02
uncertainty. You were being screwed over
01:33:05
by by Moldun, the Spring Bach tour. Of
01:33:08
course, everyone, it seems sort of
01:33:11
mandatory to hate the cops back then. I
01:33:13
don't now. I'm big fan of them. As a
01:33:16
matter of fact, this guy would be
01:33:17
appalled at me in so many ways.
01:33:20
>> Um
01:33:22
>> just anti-establishment in a way.
01:33:24
>> Yeah. Yeah, just anti anti a lot of
01:33:29
things, you know. Um yeah. Um I was very
01:33:33
un unsettled.
01:33:36
Um
01:33:37
sort of person. Um
01:33:41
now I'm more sort of settled and um
01:33:46
content and plump.
01:33:49
>> Oh, that's uncharitable. I think um
01:33:52
that's a perk of getting older. to if
01:33:54
you choose to get soft around the edges,
01:33:56
which is a nice way to live your life.
01:33:58
>> Oh, it is. It it it it is. Yeah. Um
01:34:02
I don't know. I mean, I still haven't
01:34:06
by any means given up on the um acts of
01:34:11
um unexpected hostility
01:34:15
really in my writing in particular.
01:34:17
Yeah.
01:34:17
>> Yeah.
01:34:18
>> Yeah.
01:34:19
>> Yeah. I was often getting in like fights
01:34:21
as well, physical fights. Mhm.
01:34:24
>> Yeah. That's never good. Never good in
01:34:25
your 60s.
01:34:26
>> Not a good
01:34:27
>> And actually at any age. At any age. Um,
01:34:29
last one. Steve Bronny. Are you proud of
01:34:31
yourself?
01:34:35
[Laughter]
01:34:36
>> That's not a resounding yes, is it? Uh,
01:34:40
>> no. I I I I I um
01:34:46
I have a body of I have a body of work.
01:34:49
What a pompous phrase. H 14 books is a
01:34:52
body of work.
01:34:55
>> I've written a ton of stuff and um I
01:34:59
think some of it's okay, you know. Um
01:35:05
I think one of the things that I I've
01:35:07
realized uh with my writing is that
01:35:11
you I've I've tried to write the things
01:35:14
that I wanted to read. you know, I
01:35:19
wanted to read about Poking Horn, for
01:35:21
instance,
01:35:23
and the best way I could go about that
01:35:26
was to write it,
01:35:29
you know. I liked the way
01:35:32
>> um I read what I was writing about it.
01:35:36
Of course, I admired the the the
01:35:39
standard daily news reporting of it,
01:35:40
very good summaries and all that,
01:35:44
>> but I wanted something else. And so I
01:35:46
wrote it
01:35:47
>> and I quite like reading it, you know.
01:35:51
>> Um
01:35:53
so yeah, I I I've I've come some way
01:35:56
towards um writing the kinds of things I
01:35:59
wanted to read.
01:36:01
>> And I wasn't doing that for a long time.
01:36:03
I was trying and trying and you just got
01:36:06
to kind of get a little bit more mature
01:36:09
and a bit more wised up, a lot more
01:36:11
tolerant and um a lot less um reactive
01:36:17
>> to things too and to sort of think about
01:36:19
things a bit more.
01:36:22
>> Um
01:36:23
>> that was a largely career-based answer.
01:36:26
Are you proud of yourself as as a
01:36:28
person? H
01:36:33
>> I had Michael Galvin, you know, Chris
01:36:34
Warner from Shortland Street. I had him
01:36:36
on the podcast.
01:36:36
>> Teric fell beginning of the year. Yeah,
01:36:38
I asked him that question. He was like,
01:36:40
"Well, not ashamed of myself." Which was
01:36:42
an interesting answer. But yeah, I bring
01:36:44
him up because there's parallels with
01:36:45
you and him. He's just become a empty
01:36:47
neester. His daughter uh recently left
01:36:49
home and it was just heartbreaking the
01:36:51
way he spoke about about that occasion.
01:36:54
>> What's he like? Is he a sweet boy? I
01:36:56
mean, I know he's he's my age. What is
01:36:58
he
01:36:58
>> your age?
01:36:59
>> Mid-50s, late 50s.
01:37:01
>> Lovely. Yeah.
01:37:03
>> I met him at the suppose the height of
01:37:05
his fame
01:37:06
>> in the first 10 years of Chris Warner.
01:37:08
What a sweet boy.
01:37:10
>> Really nice fell.
01:37:11
>> Um, what did he say? I'm not ashamed of
01:37:13
myself.
01:37:14
>> Yeah. Yeah, that was his answer. Which
01:37:16
Yeah.
01:37:20
>> I wouldn't even go that far. Mhm.
01:37:22
>> Um
01:37:24
[Music]
01:37:25
Oh, I I'm I'm um
01:37:32
I think I'm a I think I'm a good
01:37:35
good dad.
01:37:37
>> You know, I love my kid to bits.
01:37:39
>> Yeah,
01:37:40
>> I adore seeing her.
01:37:42
Um
01:37:46
um I guess I've realized uh well not
01:37:50
realized but come to think of myself
01:37:52
maybe uh with with Mark's death and
01:37:55
spending a lot of time with family is
01:37:57
that I'm not a bad brother,
01:38:00
>> you know. Um
01:38:04
Oh yeah, that's that's one thing. Since
01:38:06
since Mark died, uh I've become the um
01:38:11
administrator of his estate,
01:38:14
which has a sort of a another dimension
01:38:17
to it because he's an artist and so kind
01:38:20
of administering his his his art career
01:38:24
postumously.
01:38:26
And um
01:38:29
I'm guided this by
01:38:33
what would Mark want? What would Mark
01:38:35
like? This is this is doing good by Mark
01:38:38
and I'm trying to trying to keep within
01:38:41
those those guidelines of what what he
01:38:44
would think. And occasionally I'll I'll
01:38:46
do something or make a decision and
01:38:47
he'll I'll hear him going bloody stupid
01:38:52
idiot.
01:38:55
But um I I'm I'm I'm taking some pride
01:38:58
in that. I think I'm doing an okay job
01:39:01
honestly with with Mark and his artistic
01:39:04
legacy. Um,
01:39:08
and yeah, I I I I'm I'm now a sort of a
01:39:11
at 65.
01:39:14
Uh uh you may think this is like a me
01:39:18
assessing my professional situation,
01:39:21
>> but at 65 I I I think I can regard
01:39:25
myself as an elder
01:39:29
elder figure in New Zealand uh
01:39:32
journalism
01:39:34
and um I have a certain kind of pride in
01:39:40
that and as much you know I'm I'm still
01:39:43
writing
01:39:45
Uh I think I'm still writing. Okay.
01:39:49
>> And that is um I don't make any
01:39:53
distinction between that being a a
01:39:55
certain kind of professional pride and a
01:39:59
personal pride. You know, I I've managed
01:40:02
to sort of hold it together
01:40:04
as a person who can function
01:40:09
emotionally with all my sort of
01:40:11
agitations and anxieties.
01:40:14
and shames and fears and regrets
01:40:19
to be able to not so much set all that
01:40:21
aside but for that to be part of the way
01:40:26
>> that I write and the way I approach
01:40:28
things. It's with a sort of an
01:40:30
understanding of all these um
01:40:33
fragilities that I have.
01:40:35
>> Um
01:40:36
>> I think yeah I think you're doing some
01:40:38
of the best work of your career.
01:40:40
It's like a lifetime of experience.
01:40:42
That's you're going into the words now
01:40:44
in a way.
01:40:47
>> They used to have this thing at the uh
01:40:48
the journalism awards. Done away with
01:40:51
it. Really cruel. It's called a lifetime
01:40:54
achievement award, you know, and and
01:40:57
after I turn 60, I go along think, oh,
01:41:00
you know, love to win that one. Um
01:41:05
it's a shame they've canned it, but um
01:41:07
>> You never got one?
01:41:08
>> No. was I was kind of they was giving it
01:41:11
to people in their 80s and oh they're
01:41:13
too bloody old. I don't really
01:41:16
appreciate it. Um no I'm being silly but
01:41:19
um I I I really did have ambitions to um
01:41:23
>> to win that one because you know it's
01:41:25
been a what is it 40 45 years
01:41:29
>> in the in the trade and um
01:41:33
uh you talked about goals before. Well,
01:41:35
I suppose I I I have I I I do nurse
01:41:38
goals that
01:41:41
I will write a a memoir
01:41:44
>> and I want it to be published in um 2030
01:41:50
by which stage I'll be uh what's that?
01:41:53
70, right?
01:41:54
>> Yep.
01:41:55
>> And uh it'll be my 50th year
01:41:59
uh in journalism. This is all assuming
01:42:01
that a I'm alive and b I'm still, you
01:42:04
know, employed or being paid to write
01:42:07
>> uh things within that genre. And yeah, I
01:42:09
want I want to be able to call it 50
01:42:11
years a hack. I think it's a really good
01:42:14
title.
01:42:15
>> It's wonderful. I'd buy it.
01:42:17
>> You'd buy that?
01:42:17
>> A lot of people would. Yeah. Really?
01:42:19
100%.
01:42:20
>> Hey, this has been fun today. We've been
01:42:22
Jeez, I just looked at the time and
01:42:23
we've been going for two and a half
01:42:24
hours.
01:42:24
>> I know. Crazy, right? Yeah. Blimey.
01:42:27
>> How's it been for you? Is it is it um is
01:42:29
it like extracting teeth, talking about
01:42:31
yourself for this length or is it has
01:42:33
been cathartic?
01:42:35
>> None of those things.
01:42:36
>> Oh, all of those things and other things
01:42:39
too. It's been very confronting. M
01:42:42
>> um
01:42:44
um you sort of pivoted not quite halfway
01:42:47
but after halfway uh to talking about
01:42:50
myself
01:42:52
>> and um
01:42:54
you do it in such a way with your sort
01:42:56
of natural sincerity that I can tell
01:42:59
you, you know, you you don't do it as a
01:43:03
phony. You're not after a sound bite.
01:43:04
you're actually wanting to have some
01:43:06
sort of conversation and and and
01:43:10
trying to get at who I am and the way I
01:43:12
express myself. And with all that, it it
01:43:15
has made me feel extremely vulnerable.
01:43:18
And I've uh tried to kind of uh respect
01:43:22
that and meet that and um talk to you
01:43:27
in more sort of open and honest ways
01:43:32
than I normally talk to people.
01:43:35
>> Well, I appreciate that. It's been
01:43:37
really nice to meet. This is the first
01:43:38
time we've met, but I'm very familiar
01:43:40
with your work, having been a victim of
01:43:42
it and
01:43:44
a well-deserved victim of it and just a
01:43:45
a fan of your work as well.
01:43:48
I wasn't sure how we were going to get
01:43:49
on today, but um I've loved it. It's
01:43:51
been really cool.
01:43:54
>> Thank you, Dom.
01:43:54
>> Steve Brorius, thank you so much for
01:43:56
being a guest on my podcast. We're going
01:43:58
to hug when we stand. Are you a hugger?
01:43:59
>> Yeah.
01:44:00
>> Yeah. We When we stand up, we're going
01:44:02
to we're going to hug
01:44:02
>> for sure. Get into it.
