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Cameron Roger managing director of entan
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New Zealand welcome to my podcast thanks
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for having me May how's things really
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really good I'm so pleased you're here
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um so full disclosure um I've got a a
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partnership starting shortly with um
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your new uh app called B um so we
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thought we'd start this partnership by
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having having you on so we can uh rip
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the bandaid off and address any concerns
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that some people may have about what you
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do fantastic yeah first of all I are you
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the bad guy I certainly don't think so
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um no no not not at all I mean look I
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think um you know uh racing obviously
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and and and and wagering has been a big
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part of our um our identity down here in
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yone for a long time but look hopefully
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today we can cover off a little bit of
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how that's all evolved I think in a way
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that maybe not everyone in the audience
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would have been across so I'm looking
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forward to getting into some of that
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yeah absolutely so first of all we we'll
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um focus on you for a little bit so um
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you you you um you went to law school
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got a law degree yeah what what was your
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intention when you when you went to did
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did you see yourself like being a
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criminal lawyer what was the plan lack
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of B idea was probably the so I was a
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horrendous student um some of my my
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peers probably who might watch this
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would still be mind blond about the fact
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I actually went to University L to law
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school but yeah I was playing I was
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playing footy and that was kind of my my
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my dream uh to be an all black like many
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young men um had the sort of slight
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disadvantage I wasn't very good um so we
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had to kind of quickly scramble to find
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a different a different sort of plan and
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yeah I guess I know it sounds a bit
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crazy but I sort of used to love arguing
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and debating with people and then
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someone sort of said why don't you try
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your hand at law school so yeah I went
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along there and bumbled my way through a
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degree and um yeah managed to get out
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the other side and and get a law degree
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so that was sort of the origin story
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there um also learned along the way that
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I would rather do basically anything
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else with my life than be a lawyer um so
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I had to kind of and find something else
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to do and yeah find my way to the ti
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actually it's funny I know maybe three
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or four people that have got law degrees
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that are redundant they get the degree
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and don't use them yeah yeah yeah yeah I
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mean were you were you um just before
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you said you're you know a lot of your
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peers would be surprised is that just
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are you being modest or were you a [ __ ]
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student no I was genuinely a very bad
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student so I went to school and only
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hunger there so I'm an Oakland boy um
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certainly to the point that it was
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almost comical when I was at school
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um yeah I don't know I thought I was a I
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was I was a bad student um you know I
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was disruptive I never did I never I was
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was late on assignments I barely scoped
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through through it school academically
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but um yeah I don't know it was it was
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an interesting time it's it's funny when
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you get um get older and you see um
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people that were you had very low
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expectations of getting to like really
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good positions and jobs I find that the
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older I get like I've got a m who's got
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the nickname doofus who's like a
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pediatric surgeon it's like yeah oh my
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God that guy I wouldn't want him
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operating on anyone's cat yeah 100% I
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mean I think maybe maybe surgery it's
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all different but I say it to my team
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all the time like there's diminishing
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returns on being clever after a while
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you know like there's certainly When I
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Look to hire people there's there's a
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lot of really smart people out there
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that's easy to find but you know looking
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for judgment a bit of um you know a bit
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of empathy a bit of like all the soft
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skills really like the soft skills are
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the hard skills you know so yeah it's
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interesting cuz yeah a lot of people who
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you might have run off at school sort of
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ended up doing doing okay depending on
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what the definition of okay is you know
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it's quite cool though it's refreshing
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to see um so you get your lord degree
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then you're you're working for the New
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Zealand racing board for like seven
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years yeah y What's um what what did
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that job involve um yeah I guess the way
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I sort of landed in it I've I've always
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loved I used to I used to tell people I
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was into racing but I was I've always
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loved punting um even when I was young
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um you know me and my we talk about all
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the time but me and my sister would
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would bet on everything against each
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other so you know who could finish first
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who could stand in the Rain the longest
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whatever it might be so you know when I
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realized that being a lawyer looked like
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basically the worst thing in the world
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to me all due respect to the lawyers out
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there I thought well what am I
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interested in and um you know the T was
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sort of it so yeah sent like a cold
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email to the I figured out how to put
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this email addresses together and sent a
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cold email to the then Co and said hey
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like I'm got this law degree I don't
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like um but you know I've always been
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interested in the tab B is there
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anything that I might be able to do over
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there and um yeah the the one upshot I
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had at the time was I actually started
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my life um when I was at Uni working in
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a retail store for the tab so I was I
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was an operator at the the cace I guess
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and um yeah they sort of liked the that
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I'd reached out and and whatnot and they
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just found something for me to do for a
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few years so I was kicking around there
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sort of writing strategy docs for them
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as a graduate um and yeah that was sort
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of my start my way in if that makes
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sense where did where did your um like
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love of um pting come from um you
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mentioned the competitive thing with
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your sister but like was a parent or a
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grandparent yeah I mean probably not too
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dissimilar to what other people will
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tell you like track side was sort of the
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the soundtrack of my childhood um not so
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much my parents but my uncles and
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cousins and everyone they were always
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into racing and yeah I guess you just
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that's what they're doing so you you
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form an interest in it and um they're
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always punting you know and so I got the
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same kind of um habits I suppose picked
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up and yeah just never stopped I've
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always it's always been a part of kind
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of my my world if that makes sense so um
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you become head of legal at tab in 2020
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finally the Lord agree gets some use
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yeah that's exactly right what what does
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that mean what does that job mean well
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it's funny because I had um I was
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kicking around sort of writing these
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strategy docs and I loved it you know
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because I'd always been into hting and
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whatnot and I wasn't having to do the
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law thing so that was a plus but then I
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met a woman called J me who was the
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general counsel at The Tib so the chief
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legal honcho and she kind of found out I
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had a law degree which she I think she
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thought was quite funny at the time um
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and so I had a cof with her and she said
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well why don't you come and do some work
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and I sort of said well I didn't really
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ever plan on using it and she's like
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look it's different in the in-house
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world you know and I said oh okay so I
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sort of started doing a bit of work uh
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around the edges with her and yeah I
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started to really enjoy it I think she
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was right it is a very different
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experience being a lawyer within a
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business as opposed to like a corporate
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lawyer at one of the big firms you know
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you are sort of my experience was you
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you're part of the team you know you are
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working on Commercial kind of stuff but
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you just have that legal lens that sits
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over the top of it so yeah I managed to
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work for her and sort of climb the ranks
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as an in-house lawyer for a while and
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that was my my background as a lawyer
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yeah yeah so so um like head of legal at
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TB like what what are you sort of
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dealing with on a day-to-day basis is
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are you are you dealing with like
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Banning people or are you dealing with
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complaints or what what is that well
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it's a good question I mean so the thing
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people maybe don't realize about the tab
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is that it's it's a really big business
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so you know we're the second largest
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retailer in New Zealand for example um
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really yeah yeah who's number one uh I
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well it used to be Lotto um so
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potentially they are number one but when
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you think about our retail business we
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have Standalone stores of which there
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are 45 or so uh and then we also have I
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guess uh pub and club tabes that are
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part of another person's store so if you
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add all those together I mean we're in
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we're in 500 plus venues around New
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Zealand which is the biggest the biggest
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retailer and then uh we're also the
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biggest broadcaster so we actually
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broadcast more live Sport and form of
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racing than than anyone else um and then
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of course we run the wagering business
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we have big corporate function so we're
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kind of a massive business I think maybe
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not everyone properly connects um all of
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these things together but you know in a
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business of that size there's always
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legal things that need to be dealt with
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you know contract contracts that need to
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be read and signed and disputes with
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operators and um um you know commercial
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Partners customers whatever it might be
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um rights agreements with you know big
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offshore um Sports and racing providers
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all that sort of stuff came into play so
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yeah there was more than enough work to
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go around for the sort of three of us in
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the legal team and um yeah it sort of my
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day-to-day my day-to-day work so since
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since you've been managing director um
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there's been a huge change it's gone
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from tab to inan yeah um so what is what
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is inan where's inan from yeah so look
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inan is um you know in's a global sort
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of global business um the parent compan
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is based in the UK um but the inan that
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people probably hear a bit more about
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down here is a little bit of an offshoot
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of that so uh we call it inan AZ so so
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um intang Global as part of its team has
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um has this business intan Australia New
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Zealand so in Australia Our Brands are
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Le Brooks and nids uh and down here in
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New Zealand it's tby and now and now
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beta um and we run pretty independently
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of the inan kind of global stuff we sort
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of we sort of do our own thing down here
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but but are part of the the in ecosystem
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and um yeah look we came in um I was
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actually still at the tab at the time um
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so I don't most people don't don't know
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too much about the ti but the sort of
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way it was set up up in New Zealand tab
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funds are racing in sport right so it's
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actually a um a quasi public entity um
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it doesn't it's not set up to make um
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substantial profit it's set up to
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generate funding for sport and racing um
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believe it's still the biggest funder of
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sport outside of the government um and
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and and definitely is the full funer of
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racing and so the tab was sort of
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struggling with the settings that we had
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in place right sort of this quasi
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commercial government entity that's
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trying to compete with big offshore
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operators for business and and it just
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wasn't working I mean there wasn't
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enough being generated uh the tabby was
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losing market share to Offshore
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operators Etc and so um the the the
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executive team at the time which I was a
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part of um decided we needed a new plan
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um and so that was when we we looked at
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getting a partnership involved with
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entain to come in and um yeah that's
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basically what what's happened so how
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much did they pay was that no no it's
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it's out there in the world so um the
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the deal with in tame was a a
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significant upfront payment so 100
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million uh was paid up front and that
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was basically look um racing and Sport
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were were in bad shape and I guess the
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way the economy was going it was wasn't
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going to get any better anytime soon so
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that funding went basically towards
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stabilizing those funding streams for
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them um and then we guaranteed uh
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effectively guaranteed distributions at
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uh sort of 150 million a year for the
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next 5 years and you know that just gave
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funding certainty to racing and Sport at
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a higher level than the tabi was ever
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going to deliver so it basically sh up
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the sort of immediate financial future
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and I guess our job uh now is to build
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you know beyond that 5 years and make
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sure that you know racing and Sport
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continues to get that funding increasing
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year on year and we grow we grow the
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category if that makes
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sense over the last six months um you
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people listening to this may have may
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have heard ads on podcast or seen ads on
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TV or YouTube pre-roll or even old
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school like newspaper ads and things and
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billboards um the the sexy new TB ads
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are everywhere with the the wet song
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Love is All Around yeah hunches all
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around is that is that part of entain is
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that sort of yeah that was certainly
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part of what we've been doing so we
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refreshed the T brand we you know it was
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a bit old and tired and we um we got
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those we got a marketing team to tell us
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how those three lits should look which
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which was good um and yeah we did some
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new some new ads how much did they
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charge you for the logo like $100,000
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logo I want to know how much they charge
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me for the 10 pages before they show me
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it that tells me how I should feel about
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it if that makes sense you know um but
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no we those new ads out um just just try
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to put Tab in a different kind of light
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you know I think that certainly um my
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perspective on Tabby it's going back a
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few years was sort of old white male um
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stale you know um you know tired kind of
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just needed it it was in need of
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something different so so the hunch
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campaign was was very much aimed at
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presenting it in a different way and
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yeah it's been pretty well received us
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far I I think every every big um brand
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or organization goes through this at
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some point a where you need to like
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re-energize or reinvigorate the brand
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and it was probably just the time for
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for tab yeah but I'm I'm similar there
00:12:05
was a guy that lived over the road from
00:12:06
us called Le Li and he every he worked
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at National Bank Monday to Friday then
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on Saturday he have a stubbies on with
00:12:12
the Best Bets in the back pocket handb
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mustache usually wandering around the
00:12:16
yard with a
00:12:17
transistor um you love the pun yeah well
00:12:20
M those stories are I mean everywhere
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right I mean I talk about it all the
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time I think um one thing I always
00:12:26
encourage our staff to do when they
00:12:27
start on with Tabby if they haven't been
00:12:29
around is to go into a tabby on a
00:12:31
Saturday afternoon right and just see
00:12:33
the characters that are there like it
00:12:35
really is a community of people you know
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if you're into racing and you're a
00:12:38
punter um you have like an instant
00:12:41
connection with someone else who is you
00:12:43
know and kind of the universal symbol of
00:12:45
of that what you were was the best bit
00:12:47
sticking out of the back pocket which
00:12:48
was um classic you I had one I had one
00:12:50
in my back pocket in six form you know
00:12:52
that was kind of me so you know I can
00:12:54
spot them a mile away yeah um okay so so
00:12:57
what is bitat so I'm I'm doing a
00:12:59
partnership with be they sponsoring the
00:13:01
podcast for a little bit what exactly is
00:13:02
becha yeah so I guess if you think about
00:13:04
it we had tab in the market and um you
00:13:07
know tab as a brand is very um as much
00:13:10
as I say it was old and tied and and
00:13:11
whatnot it was it needed a refresh it
00:13:13
has great recall with new zealanders
00:13:15
most people know what the Tabby is it's
00:13:17
got a customer group that's quite loyal
00:13:19
and and and sort of committed but um it
00:13:23
doesn't really service like I guess the
00:13:25
next generation of customers um and look
00:13:28
um some of the sets that we had to think
00:13:30
about when we came into the market you
00:13:32
know there's about 190 million of
00:13:34
gambling losses that are going offshore
00:13:36
at the moment so primarily with one of
00:13:38
our overseas competitors based of malter
00:13:40
and bet 365 and we had to take a look at
00:13:43
why customers were choosing to bet there
00:13:45
instead of with us and one of the major
00:13:46
problems was that the Tabby brand didn't
00:13:49
resonate with with the younger
00:13:50
demographic when I say younger because I
00:13:52
know it's a a term you have to be
00:13:54
cautious with it's obviously people who
00:13:55
are of gambling age if that makes sense
00:13:58
but under you know hour World younger is
00:13:59
under 40 you know that's that's that's
00:14:01
kind of what we're talking about and
00:14:03
yeah we knew that we had to um put
00:14:05
something in Market that's still you
00:14:06
know looked after our existing customers
00:14:08
who have been there whove been loyal in
00:14:09
the tab but then you know gave the the
00:14:12
next generation of punters a brand that
00:14:13
they can kind of get behind you know one
00:14:15
of the big stats I use all the time is
00:14:17
here in Oakland you know it's the
00:14:18
largest or second largest uh migration
00:14:21
po sorry it's the second most populated
00:14:24
city in terms of migrants so most people
00:14:26
who live here now are not born here and
00:14:29
they have no Affinity with the Tabby
00:14:31
brand you know they're looking for
00:14:32
something that they can be a part of
00:14:34
that they can resonate with and um beta
00:14:36
was our attempt or is our attempt at
00:14:38
giving them a new look if that makes
00:14:40
sense yeah how how do you feel you
00:14:42
mentioned those um one of the some of
00:14:44
the international stuff how do you feel
00:14:45
about that cuz I um I got an email a
00:14:47
couple of weeks ago from I think it's N1
00:14:49
N1 B yeah asking asking me if I wanted
00:14:51
to like be an influencer for them and I
00:14:53
I see ads on YouTube all the time with
00:14:55
uh I saw one the other day with Jamie
00:14:56
Fox there was one with Brenda mcellen
00:14:58
for a while how do how how do you feel
00:15:00
about that using like big celebrities
00:15:02
for these things oh I mean look I it's
00:15:04
not so much the use of the big
00:15:06
celebrities that worries me with with
00:15:08
these offshore Brands it's that you know
00:15:11
the the way that the legislative
00:15:13
settings have been here in New Zealand
00:15:14
for ages is that they're all allowed to
00:15:16
operate here with almost impunity so you
00:15:19
know when we operate we have a whole
00:15:20
series of rules we have to follow we
00:15:22
have to um put safer gambling standards
00:15:25
in we have to have relationships with
00:15:26
the government and with like Community
00:15:28
leaders and whatnot these operators
00:15:30
don't abide by any of that you know so
00:15:32
they can put ads into Market um with
00:15:34
absolute impunity and um I would say
00:15:37
that in many cases they push things way
00:15:39
way way too far um through use of of not
00:15:42
just use of celebrities because it's not
00:15:43
necessarily the problem but you know I
00:15:45
looked at the the X1 no sorry the um
00:15:47
can't remember the name but the ads that
00:15:48
brend McCullum was in for a while there
00:15:50
you know portraying him as a lavish um
00:15:53
kind of successful person through his
00:15:54
bding that's just not something we could
00:15:56
ever do down here or would ever want to
00:15:57
do down here um but the fact that they
00:15:59
were able to do that and push it so hard
00:16:01
in in New Zealand is's a real fault in
00:16:02
the in the legislative settings as as we
00:16:04
see it yeah cuz they're not having to
00:16:05
play by the same roles no no they're not
00:16:08
you know and like you know you think
00:16:09
about you know when we think about our
00:16:11
products we have to give regard to um
00:16:14
you know things like um vulnerable
00:16:15
communities which in the gambling world
00:16:16
is um M and Pacific right where they're
00:16:18
they're disproportionately harmed by by
00:16:20
gambling activity we have to think about
00:16:22
how our ads will be received within
00:16:24
those communities we have to consult no
00:16:26
we have to we do consult with them to
00:16:28
understand you know this resonate what
00:16:29
are different ways that we can access um
00:16:31
you know those that those groups and do
00:16:34
we think that X1 are doing any of this
00:16:36
like absolutely not you know they have
00:16:37
no regard for for for our communities
00:16:39
down here and yeah it's just a massive
00:16:41
hole that an alv view really does need
00:16:43
to be sold um pretty quickly and the
00:16:45
growth of offshore gambling is is insane
00:16:47
you know it's it's it's it's
00:16:50
exponentially growing um and the fact
00:16:52
that you know we have no visibility over
00:16:54
how those customers are bidding and
00:16:55
whether they're doing it safely or
00:16:56
whether they're being monitored as as a
00:16:58
real real course of a concern yeah
00:17:00
you're speaking of that being monitored
00:17:02
thing um so I signed up to uh beter just
00:17:05
last week yeah um was a surpris it it
00:17:08
was a surp it was thorough but it was
00:17:09
still surprisingly easy even for like a
00:17:11
boomer like me it was like a f minute
00:17:13
process I needed to take a photo of the
00:17:14
front and back of my driver's license
00:17:16
photo and all that and then there was
00:17:17
some questions like um you know how much
00:17:20
would you spend on average what would be
00:17:21
a big bet is that um so I can be
00:17:24
monitored so if there's a regular a
00:17:26
regular patterns then it'll be picked up
00:17:28
by some yeah spot on I mean it's it's
00:17:30
twofold so your ID is obviously make
00:17:32
sure that you're age and um and that
00:17:34
that's validated and then we got some
00:17:36
secondary questions which you described
00:17:38
they have two purposes one is for
00:17:39
anti-money laundering so to make sure
00:17:41
you're not doing anything you shouldn't
00:17:42
in that regard and then to give our team
00:17:44
a cross reference point as well to what
00:17:46
normal behavior could look like for you
00:17:49
um it's not a firm marker because we put
00:17:52
an objective we put our own objective
00:17:54
test around every customer but you know
00:17:56
if you say you're only going to be
00:17:56
spending $10 a week and all of a sudden
00:17:58
you're spending 50 well that's a that's
00:17:59
a flag for us to make sure that we check
00:18:01
in and see what's going on and why money
00:18:03
even even with a a smallish amount like
00:18:05
that say $10 to $50 yeah well it's
00:18:07
interesting I know it's something that
00:18:08
gets talked about a little bit but the
00:18:11
value that someone bets both ways is not
00:18:13
really in and of itself a great marker
00:18:15
for potential gambling harm right so you
00:18:18
know I watched the Michael Jordan
00:18:19
documentary I thought he actually he was
00:18:20
at pains trying to point it out to
00:18:22
people but I've I've lived this and can
00:18:23
see it right so you know $20,000 to
00:18:27
Michael Jordan is like $10 to an average
00:18:29
person it's loose change the time and it
00:18:32
genuinely is right and like you know one
00:18:33
thing that we struggle with is trying to
00:18:35
talk to maybe the regulator or if
00:18:37
there's a public story about someone
00:18:39
who's bet you know B and lost a large
00:18:41
sum of money but we know for a fact that
00:18:43
that relative to their net worth is
00:18:45
absolutely not a problem for them um you
00:18:47
know it's an interesting kind of part of
00:18:48
the game and it goes the other way so
00:18:50
you know if someone's losing $50 a week
00:18:53
but you know we know that they can't
00:18:54
afford to be losing that that's a lot of
00:18:55
money for a lot of people particular in
00:18:57
this climate then absolutely it becomes
00:18:58
a money okay yeah um the story I do tell
00:19:01
when I was working in the space like
00:19:03
fulltime we had a customer and so what
00:19:05
we would do is um you know we'd have
00:19:07
sort of weekly check-ins with certain
00:19:09
customers if if there were markers that
00:19:11
we had to keep an eye on and check how
00:19:13
they're going and we had this one this
00:19:14
one customer call Mr Mr X uh Mr X who um
00:19:18
we had actually asked for um a source of
00:19:21
wealth so basically making sure that he
00:19:22
was financially sound just given the
00:19:24
levels he was biding at and all of that
00:19:26
had come through and um you know he had
00:19:28
he had basically a bank account that had
00:19:29
20 million plus in it he had a few other
00:19:31
assets so this is the type of scale
00:19:33
we're talking about but the team came to
00:19:35
me on on the Monday and said um You
00:19:38
probably have to chat to Mr X again I
00:19:40
said why and they said oh he lost
00:19:41
200,000 over the weekend you know which
00:19:44
which it sounds to to me or you was
00:19:46
insane terrifying terrifying and I was
00:19:48
like okay shoot yeah let me get get hold
00:19:52
of him so I ring him we suspend his
00:19:54
account which is what we'll do ring him
00:19:55
four or five times leave messages no
00:19:57
answer just leave it suspended that
00:19:58
he'll he'll call me so he calls me back
00:20:00
that night and he said hello he's like
00:20:02
hello Cam and I was like hey he's like I
00:20:04
was like you're a first Bas yeah yeah
00:20:06
for sure we the CH all the time I said
00:20:08
on Mr X like you know the team let me
00:20:10
know that you had a bad week and he's he
00:20:12
genuinely just says what and I was like
00:20:14
you know you lost 200 you know's
00:20:15
everything all right and he sort of like
00:20:18
started to get grumpy and he was like
00:20:20
yeah everything's fine what he can I
00:20:22
swear she said what the [ __ ] the
00:20:23
problem and I was like well Mr X um
00:20:26
200,000 is a lot of money to some people
00:20:28
people and then he just pauses and he
00:20:31
goes [ __ ] being one of those people you
00:20:34
know and so this is like this is what we
00:20:36
deal and in in all in all seriousness
00:20:38
like he was very financially sound he
00:20:39
was aware of what he was doing he wasn't
00:20:41
showing any chasing behaviors or other
00:20:43
markers that would be problematic it was
00:20:45
just a lot of money but to him you know
00:20:47
it wasn't a lot of money that's like the
00:20:49
average person in the street losing two
00:20:50
bucks you know so yeah it's always a
00:20:52
tough one to to to kind of uh deal with
00:20:55
the the sort of focus or not focus on
00:20:57
the the monetary value but it's it's
00:20:59
part of how we how we look at it all
00:21:00
yeah I suppose for him to get the same
00:21:02
Adrenaline Rush he needs you know you
00:21:05
more skin in the game potentially yeah
00:21:07
for sure I mean and that's been my
00:21:08
experience with with with punting like
00:21:09
the way I the way I've always gambled is
00:21:11
I have to feel something you know good
00:21:13
or bad um and so you know my my my
00:21:17
experience has been just stepping up I
00:21:18
guess the amount that I wager as my
00:21:20
income allows for it you know that's the
00:21:21
natural part of the process for for me
00:21:24
um you know and for others as well how
00:21:26
how many people like Mr X are you are
00:21:27
you calling every Monday oh no not not
00:21:30
many to be clear there aren't many
00:21:31
people who wager at that level and look
00:21:34
you know a massive part of our um
00:21:36
objective down here in New Zealand and
00:21:38
in general is to to to get away from a
00:21:41
Reliance on high value customers you
00:21:42
know it's easy to say because everyone
00:21:44
wants a recreational ised customer base
00:21:47
but just for the reasons that it does
00:21:49
require constant attention it requires
00:21:51
you know monitoring it requires um
00:21:54
thinking about how and when they they're
00:21:56
gambling whereas we can usually manage a
00:21:58
lot better in in relation to customers
00:22:00
who are spending what we can see as
00:22:02
truly discretionary amounts you know
00:22:04
like basically the way we'll talk about
00:22:05
it as a team is if you've got 20 bucks
00:22:08
on a Friday to to to spend on some form
00:22:10
of entertainment we want to win that
00:22:12
dollar you know we want you to put a
00:22:13
sanay multi on the league or whatever
00:22:14
else that's our dream in terms of a
00:22:16
customer base because it is infinitely
00:22:18
easier to to manage now um my personal
00:22:22
um um bedding habits are probably like
00:22:25
this um maybe $100 to $200 a year
00:22:28
Melbourne cup couple of all black games
00:22:31
maybe a Parker fight y maybe some UFC am
00:22:34
I um yeah what percentage of customers
00:22:36
are like me and are we a pain in the ass
00:22:38
no you're you're you're you're a
00:22:40
fantastic uh group of customers I mean I
00:22:42
think I think the average spend on
00:22:44
gambling in New Zealand per year is
00:22:45
about at the $60 Mark and that includes
00:22:47
Lotto which takes up a huge and pokeys
00:22:49
which take up a huge proportion of it
00:22:50
certainly not all coming our way but
00:22:52
look I mean your experience is entirely
00:22:55
common one um Combat Sports especially
00:22:57
get a lot of oneoff attention um the
00:23:00
Melbourne cup sort of does get get
00:23:01
everyone having that one bit of the year
00:23:03
and slowly we're starting to see a
00:23:05
daylight maybe cracker Millions like our
00:23:07
own our own local event getting someone
00:23:09
off custom and no you're you're a great
00:23:11
you're a great customer of ours I guess
00:23:13
um provided you're doing it um safely
00:23:15
and enjoying what you're doing then
00:23:16
that's that's perfectly fine with us
00:23:18
always always and I I'm I must say I
00:23:20
don't know if this is an irresponsible
00:23:21
thing to say but if I'm watching Like An
00:23:22
All Blacks game or a Warriors game and
00:23:24
I've got 10 bucks on bod to score the
00:23:27
first roal whatever it does it it does
00:23:30
make it more exciting it's more of an
00:23:32
intense watch you feel you have more
00:23:34
skin in the game yeah look it's um yeah
00:23:36
we we have to be careful a little bit
00:23:38
with how we we sort of push this because
00:23:41
I don't know if you've seen but on our
00:23:43
um hunch land campaign we sort of we
00:23:45
talk about um the slogans get your beted
00:23:48
on and we we sort of show it as a social
00:23:50
activity where people are Bing together
00:23:52
to increase the enjoyment of the sports
00:23:53
so sort of what you're talking about I
00:23:55
guess the line that we want to make sure
00:23:57
we're walking carefully is is to to to
00:24:00
to to point that out to say hey it's a
00:24:01
really great social activity that can
00:24:02
add enjoyment to to sport but that it
00:24:05
can't become a prerequisite to your
00:24:06
enjoyment right like what we don't want
00:24:08
to see as a customer who has to have
00:24:10
some action on a game to still be a fan
00:24:12
of the sport that's when it's gone a
00:24:13
little bit too far so within that
00:24:15
campaign we actually um we launched a a
00:24:18
very specific and targeted safer gam
00:24:21
message which is um you know the
00:24:22
standard line is get your uh get your
00:24:24
bid on and this one is nowh not to get
00:24:26
your bid on and it shows someone you
00:24:28
know the whole ad is set up as if it's
00:24:29
going to be another hunch ad but it's
00:24:30
just someone who says hey I'm just going
00:24:32
to actually set this one out you know um
00:24:35
and that's very direct and targeted from
00:24:37
us it's it's trying to show that like
00:24:40
you don't have to have it's not a
00:24:41
prerequisite to enjoyment but if it does
00:24:43
add to your enjoyment then hey that's
00:24:44
that's great as well like that's what
00:24:45
we're here for you know yeah now um give
00:24:48
us a a peek if you can behind the scenes
00:24:50
at the T say uh you accept a big bet
00:24:53
like if someone has say $50,000 on
00:24:55
Argentina to beat the All Blacks um
00:24:58
what what happens does um does it have
00:25:00
to be approved by a senior member of the
00:25:03
team do you guys [ __ ] yourself when
00:25:05
Argentina win
00:25:06
and um look I mean action at that level
00:25:09
nowadays is there's no way that we're
00:25:11
taking a bit like that unless we know
00:25:12
who the customer and what they're all
00:25:13
about basically because it's just you
00:25:15
know it's just so uncommon now to see it
00:25:18
used to be a little bit more prevalent
00:25:19
to be honest but um it's just so
00:25:21
uncommon now for us to see action like
00:25:22
that coming out of nowhere so we'll
00:25:24
usually know who it is um and it depends
00:25:26
in terms of how we um how we react to it
00:25:28
it really depends on the depth of the
00:25:30
market you know if it's on the All
00:25:32
Blacks or if it's on English Premier
00:25:34
League or on uh NBA for example you know
00:25:37
we we we'll take the bit you know the
00:25:39
reason we'll take it is that um it's
00:25:41
very unlikely that in those sports that
00:25:43
you have maybe info or um a stare on how
00:25:48
the game might go and I mean legitim
00:25:50
perfectly within the Realms of
00:25:51
legitimacy um that we don't already have
00:25:54
so we we trust our prices and we'll take
00:25:55
it but you know there's events like um
00:25:58
I guess Ukrainian table tennis is the
00:26:00
one that I I would throw out there you
00:26:02
know if we're taking a $50,000 bit on if
00:26:04
we're getting a $50,000 bid on that
00:26:05
we're asking immediately well why you
00:26:07
know because it's not a it's not a
00:26:09
market that has great depth or great
00:26:11
understanding about where things should
00:26:12
be lined up to so yeah look we're a bet
00:26:14
business and if it's coming from the
00:26:16
right the right person and it's on it's
00:26:18
on a market that's deep enough we'll
00:26:19
we'll absolutely take it yeah but but if
00:26:21
there's if there's a big loss like do
00:26:22
you um do you have to make a phone call
00:26:25
on Monday to someone at inan in the UK
00:26:27
for it please explain oh man it's
00:26:28
interesting because you know where we
00:26:30
lose our money down here in New Zealand
00:26:31
is on is on kiwi favorite so um a few
00:26:35
weeks ago um I woke up in the morning
00:26:37
and checked the I'm obsessed about the
00:26:40
kind of daily results I checked the
00:26:41
results and went to sleep and we were
00:26:43
tracking quite well you all had gone
00:26:45
good the racing was fine but woke up and
00:26:48
there was this $600,000 sort of hole
00:26:51
basically we've been wiped out and I was
00:26:53
like what is going on so I was trying to
00:26:55
scan through looking at all The Usual
00:26:56
Suspects trying to figure out as in
00:26:58
Sports trying to figure out where it
00:26:59
might have gone wrong couldn't find it
00:27:01
and then I was sort of got sick of
00:27:03
trying to find it so I was like I'll
00:27:04
figure this out in a sec flicked over to
00:27:05
Instagram and I saw that Lydia Co had
00:27:07
won the gold medal oh my God and so
00:27:09
that's a classic example you know Lydia
00:27:11
Co paying $70 which she was at one point
00:27:13
um you know you only need a few people
00:27:15
to put 100 bucks 10 bucks 20 bucks you
00:27:17
know a bunch of people putting those
00:27:18
numbers on and all of a sudden we're up
00:27:20
for a huge liability you know you
00:27:22
mentioned another one Joe Parker you
00:27:23
know when he fought um goodness it might
00:27:27
have been Joshua Anthony Joshua um you
00:27:29
know new zealanders love backing a home
00:27:31
favorite uh a home you know a HomeTown
00:27:34
favorite um but if they're showing up as
00:27:35
an underdog then they love it even more
00:27:37
so you we carry huge liabilities on some
00:27:40
some kiwis which conflicts me because
00:27:41
obviously I'm a proud kiwi and I want to
00:27:43
see them do well but you know it it's
00:27:45
pretty tough sometimes when they come
00:27:46
through from a business perspective yeah
00:27:48
yeah and it's going to be a hard one for
00:27:49
you for you and your position because um
00:27:51
yeah there's the social responsibility
00:27:53
and the community responsibility but
00:27:54
also you want to you know run a
00:27:56
profitable business as well yeah and
00:27:57
look it's long term for us you know like
00:28:00
I guess one thing we got to new people
00:28:02
who come into our business the bidding
00:28:03
game is a little bit unlike any other
00:28:05
like we can have days where we lose
00:28:07
Millions you know like it's just the
00:28:08
swings and roundabouts and you just got
00:28:10
to trust that over a long enough period
00:28:12
it will all kind of come come come
00:28:14
through in the wash but yeah when you
00:28:16
get
00:28:16
unseasonably uh out of character results
00:28:19
not saying lyia co- winning the gold
00:28:20
medals out of character of course it's
00:28:21
not but um you know when you get a run
00:28:23
of things like that happening the
00:28:25
punters get well in front for for a
00:28:26
decent period which is always
00:28:28
interesting to watch yeah H something
00:28:29
like golf it's so hard to beat on you
00:28:31
look at someone like Tiger Woods I think
00:28:32
he won like 20% of his T like it's so
00:28:35
hard um okay now this is this is kind of
00:28:40
kind of icky but um I thought we could
00:28:42
talk about the psychology of gambling
00:28:43
one of my uh real early podcast guest
00:28:45
was um Zack Guilford um yeah former all
00:28:48
black World Cup winner um and I did a
00:28:50
podcast with him in Christ Church when
00:28:52
he was on home detention um after like
00:28:54
stealing money off his granddad to um
00:28:57
for his gambling so I've got a I've got
00:28:58
a quote from that podcast I thought
00:29:01
after this we can see what you know
00:29:02
about the psychology of like a problem
00:29:04
Gambler um for me drugs and alcohol uh
00:29:07
were binges that I had to come to work
00:29:09
in with my Rugby career gambling was a
00:29:11
constant addiction it was mainly just
00:29:13
horses and Sport for me it was an an
00:29:15
adrenaline rush you've got 10K on a
00:29:17
horse and it wins by a nose down the
00:29:19
straet that's a pretty big rush I've put
00:29:21
25k on horses winds didn't feel like a
00:29:24
lot uh there would be that automatic
00:29:26
relief but then it's just the samey
00:29:28
again chasing more it didn't matter if I
00:29:30
got up to 100K in my tab account there
00:29:32
was never enough it was never going to
00:29:34
be enough because um I was an addict
00:29:36
chasing greed so now he's he's the like
00:29:40
he's that top 2% or the bottom 2%
00:29:42
however you want to frame it like he's a
00:29:43
real problem Gambler what's the
00:29:46
psychology of like someone like that
00:29:48
yeah look I mean there there's a bunch
00:29:50
of stuff I mean I know I've listened to
00:29:52
Zack talk about his gambling on on in
00:29:54
various forums um I don't know if I'd
00:29:55
seen the one on your pod but I've heard
00:29:57
him talk about it and I think his
00:29:59
experience is is not uncommon at least
00:30:02
from what I've seen so um you know
00:30:04
couple the biggest the biggest indicator
00:30:07
of I guess gambling harm or the biggest
00:30:09
driver of gambling harm is poverty so
00:30:11
much like many other um negative health
00:30:13
health conditions coming from a
00:30:15
background of um I guess poor financial
00:30:17
literacy of um other potentially harmful
00:30:20
and addictive behaviors in the household
00:30:22
is often um a big a big driver of it and
00:30:25
the kind of the the the risk-seeking
00:30:27
behavior that you can find um that will
00:30:29
sit alongside some of that too and also
00:30:31
comes with mental health I think um
00:30:32
Zach's talked before about ADHD and and
00:30:34
his experience with that um you know
00:30:36
these are all parts of the puzzle of how
00:30:39
gambling addiction can come um into into
00:30:42
someone's life um and look I mean Zach's
00:30:45
experience I think is a combination of
00:30:47
all of those things from what I've heard
00:30:48
him talk publicly about U maybe not so
00:30:50
much the poverty side but I know that um
00:30:52
certainly amongst the family unit there
00:30:54
was a lot of gambling that went on um
00:30:56
you know the his mental Health struggles
00:30:58
that he's talked about are are obviously
00:31:00
indicators as well so you know those are
00:31:02
things that can for for an individual uh
00:31:05
magnify The Rush right I mean there's a
00:31:07
rush associated with gambling at at all
00:31:09
levels really um but his experience of
00:31:12
feeling it more and wanting it more are
00:31:15
usually driven by by some of those
00:31:16
factors that I think he's talked about
00:31:18
quite openly yeah I mean he's he was in
00:31:20
no way shape or form like blaming anyone
00:31:23
but himself no 100% he's I know there's
00:31:25
probably some people that think you guys
00:31:27
you guys are the best bad guys but Zack
00:31:28
definitely wasn't doing that like he
00:31:30
knows it's all on all on him do you do
00:31:31
you guys get like hate mail or anything
00:31:34
or if you go to functions do you get
00:31:35
people like bailing you up trying to no
00:31:37
no not really I mean it's like it's an
00:31:40
interesting one
00:31:41
because I talk about this all the time
00:31:44
like our our biggest challenge where we
00:31:46
get the most negative press this this
00:31:48
might sound crazy to people but it's
00:31:49
when we're taking tabs out of
00:31:51
communities like the worst press that we
00:31:54
get is like the local especially in
00:31:55
rural communities the way that our ret
00:31:58
business was being run before much like
00:31:59
others becoming less efficient you know
00:32:02
with the entain partnership we're sort
00:32:03
of in a position now to change that a
00:32:05
little bit but it was a sort of scaling
00:32:07
down of retail operations and nothing
00:32:09
ignited passion and fire I guess in my
00:32:12
direction more than when a community was
00:32:14
losing their T so it's kind of the
00:32:16
inverse now I'm not saying that we get
00:32:18
praised in the streets for our work but
00:32:19
but that's sort of the area where I I
00:32:21
get the most black um but look of course
00:32:24
I've had family members who have talked
00:32:25
to me directly about it um you know and
00:32:27
I've had people in the health sector who
00:32:29
have have talked to me about it too I
00:32:30
guess the thing I always have tried with
00:32:33
them is to um I guess give them a real
00:32:36
sense of the work that we do do and look
00:32:38
it's it's hard for gambling operators
00:32:40
because I I avoid the holier than thou
00:32:42
kind of rhetoric that I see from maybe
00:32:44
some of my peers offshore where you know
00:32:46
they're at pains to say well we've got
00:32:48
these great processes in place we've got
00:32:49
these great systems which is all very
00:32:51
true but I also remember the days when
00:32:53
it wasn't true right and that's that's a
00:32:54
reality that I think the gaming sector
00:32:56
needs to front up to a bit a bit more
00:32:58
clearly like the way I describe it is I
00:33:01
think that the world probably not the
00:33:03
world but many people would probably sit
00:33:04
and think that me and my PE sit around a
00:33:06
board table and we say hey should we
00:33:08
should we take this guy for all he's
00:33:09
worth and it's just completely devoid of
00:33:12
how we actually operate as a business
00:33:13
like there's not a single person in our
00:33:15
business that would want or ever condone
00:33:18
having someone who we can work out or
00:33:19
determine has an issue with gambling
00:33:21
gambling with us but at the same time if
00:33:23
you went around that same board table 20
00:33:24
years ago that probably was some of
00:33:26
those discussions taking place so MH I I
00:33:28
try to give a lot more I try to be
00:33:31
understanding about people's
00:33:32
perspectives on us and what we do
00:33:34
because that that idea doesn't just
00:33:36
change overnight so I often will talk
00:33:38
like Zach's experience the way that he
00:33:40
was and again I'm talking about this not
00:33:42
because he's a customer of ours but
00:33:43
because he's talked about it publicly
00:33:44
before the way he describes how he was
00:33:46
gambling in his early days of Super
00:33:47
Rugby a person could not gamble like
00:33:49
that anymore it just isn't possible
00:33:51
because of the checks and balances that
00:33:52
we've we've put in place and because you
00:33:54
know gambling operators responsible ones
00:33:57
I think like what what we are down here
00:33:59
um have worked out that we have to we
00:34:01
can't be an ambulance at the bottom of
00:34:03
the cliff anymore we have to put things
00:34:04
in place that are preventative for
00:34:06
people to avoid them getting into
00:34:07
trouble in the first place not to to to
00:34:09
say hey here's a pamphlet when things
00:34:11
when things go wrong the old pamphlet oh
00:34:13
yeah take pamphlets at the casino oh
00:34:15
yeah here you go you go right here's the
00:34:17
pamphlet okay someone write down that we
00:34:19
gave him the pamphlet like that's just
00:34:20
not how certainly not how we operate now
00:34:23
but again you go back 20 years like yeah
00:34:25
that was that was the game well that
00:34:27
probably um yeah the next thing I was
00:34:28
going to ask was you know we probably
00:34:30
don't need to even go there um how
00:34:32
common is it for a family member to
00:34:33
reach out about a loved one but I'm
00:34:35
guessing with the measures you've got in
00:34:36
place yeah um it doesn't get to that
00:34:38
point or certainly certainly far less
00:34:40
frequently than it used to yeah um cuz I
00:34:43
mean the the game back in the day it's
00:34:45
always there always been so one of the
00:34:48
things I to Champion just to give
00:34:49
context is it used to be called
00:34:51
responsible gambling which I like I I
00:34:54
would liken
00:34:55
to sort of like when the smoking uh when
00:34:58
the tobacco industry just like gave the
00:35:00
term responsible smoking like the
00:35:02
criticism there was one there's probably
00:35:04
no version of smoking that's responsible
00:35:05
which which is a key difference to
00:35:07
gambling but the main point of it was
00:35:09
that it was putting all the onus back on
00:35:10
the individual it was like you are
00:35:11
either going to be responsible or IR
00:35:13
responsible which is a
00:35:15
fundamentally it's a fundamentally
00:35:17
flawed way of looking at gambling
00:35:18
addiction um if people could behave
00:35:21
responsibly and and the owners could
00:35:23
just sit with them and they they could
00:35:24
handle it all themselves then we
00:35:25
wouldn't need these protective measures
00:35:27
in the first place so you know
00:35:29
redefining that as safe for gambling or
00:35:31
or a version of it that's um that's
00:35:33
framed slightly differently was sort of
00:35:34
the first step um and look we our
00:35:38
business being entame really championed
00:35:40
a lot of the self-help tools right so
00:35:42
you have to put those in place first you
00:35:43
have to give people the opportunity to
00:35:45
to to take the onus on themselves but
00:35:47
you have to have the fullback measures
00:35:49
there you have to be doing the
00:35:50
monitoring you have to um understand the
00:35:52
profile of your customer and you have to
00:35:54
take Intervention when they might not be
00:35:55
accessing those themselves and look ever
00:35:58
since we've taken that two-pronged
00:35:59
approach as a business and and really
00:36:01
upped our game on both sides and I'm
00:36:03
talking this is this is years ago now
00:36:04
but especially of late um you know we
00:36:06
don't have the family interventions that
00:36:08
we used to have um you know we just we
00:36:10
just don't encounter them at any kind of
00:36:12
uh significant rate anymore which is
00:36:13
great you know yeah so of the bands that
00:36:16
you have now how many how many would be
00:36:17
self-imposed versus you know bands that
00:36:19
you're putting on customers um look so
00:36:21
self-impose is is is is is always going
00:36:24
to be more prevalent so you know the the
00:36:27
best the best thing a person can do when
00:36:28
they're struggling with their gambling
00:36:30
at any given moment is to either take a
00:36:31
break or to to take a permanent
00:36:33
exclusion right and you know there's
00:36:35
always going to be uh situations where
00:36:36
the individual gets to their conclusion
00:36:38
before us and even before the harm
00:36:39
itself even shows up so that's that's
00:36:42
still the more prominent uh measure uh
00:36:44
the next would be I guess interventions
00:36:46
from us um and then the last one which
00:36:47
again is a tiny tiny percentage would be
00:36:49
if there was a third party intervention
00:36:51
and here in New Zealand the system is
00:36:52
that you can go to your counselor
00:36:54
obviously um you can get some some free
00:36:56
Help Services through that and then
00:36:58
often through those counseling sessions
00:37:00
they'll they'll determine with the
00:37:01
counselor that gam might be adding to
00:37:04
their their problems or whatever else um
00:37:06
and so we'll get an approach from a
00:37:07
counselor to to help with an exclusion
00:37:09
for that person and that that that's
00:37:10
pretty common too but it's not usually
00:37:13
as direct as a family member calling and
00:37:14
saying hey something's wrong here um
00:37:17
yeah Sky City got in trouble recently um
00:37:21
there was some problem gamble on a on a
00:37:22
slot machine that was spent way more
00:37:24
than what they should have and the their
00:37:25
punishment is really steep they've got a
00:37:27
shut down you you know more about this
00:37:28
than me they got to shut down for a few
00:37:29
days or yeah look I not speak to out of
00:37:32
t on this but I know that um I believe
00:37:34
it was a time played time playing um
00:37:36
issues I think it was that a a a
00:37:38
particular customer was was sort of
00:37:41
present in the gaming floor for too long
00:37:43
um which look I think is it's always
00:37:45
been a hard one um to kind of monetize
00:37:47
and again not speaking from Sky City's
00:37:49
perspective but from ours you know
00:37:51
someone in the retail store for a long
00:37:53
period of time um you know it can be
00:37:55
harmful and it's something that should
00:37:56
trigger someone to say hey is your
00:37:57
everything all right but you know at the
00:37:59
same time um you know a long session uh
00:38:01
in a store is not always a sort of
00:38:03
harmful activity but I think in in this
00:38:05
case kity was found that it was it was
00:38:07
over the top and look I think one of the
00:38:09
real core kind of developments that
00:38:11
they've um adopted which we're in the
00:38:13
process of of rolling out ourselves is
00:38:15
is the use of technology to find those
00:38:17
people faster you know so they've got
00:38:19
facial recognition uh technology now to
00:38:21
I guess identify people who have
00:38:23
excluded or might look underage which is
00:38:26
another good benefit of it um but it's
00:38:28
also a really key tool to be able to
00:38:30
identify people who have been there for
00:38:32
a long period of time and to send
00:38:33
someone out and have a conversation
00:38:34
which I know that Sky City are are doing
00:38:37
now so look it's um it's probably a a
00:38:40
big wake up call I think for other
00:38:42
operators to say look you've got to be
00:38:43
on top of um time play they have to shut
00:38:47
for a whole weekend or something which
00:38:48
they'll they'll lose a serious amount of
00:38:49
income from that what what are the
00:38:51
consequences for you if you guys um you
00:38:53
know if someone slips through the Craigs
00:38:55
yeah look it's quite severe like
00:38:58
yeah look of course it can be yeah look
00:39:00
um you know we we have to take on the
00:39:02
onus and the responsibility of of
00:39:04
looking out for people I mean it's it's
00:39:05
a large part of our remit in New Zealand
00:39:07
it's you know we're supposed to drive W
00:39:09
during turnover for sports and racing as
00:39:10
I touched on earlier but it can never be
00:39:12
at the expense of um of people
00:39:14
sufferings from undue harm so look if um
00:39:17
if we were found to be in breach in the
00:39:19
same way I doubt that the penalties
00:39:20
would be any different for us as lot Sky
00:39:22
City have had and look we've got 500 uh
00:39:24
venues you know that's an awful lot of
00:39:26
ground to cover you know it's an awful
00:39:28
lot of staff to train I worked in a a
00:39:30
tabi retail store and you know back then
00:39:33
I had to look at a list of people 400
00:39:35
photos every day before my shift and try
00:39:38
to remember them all in case one of them
00:39:39
came in the store like you were on a
00:39:42
hideing to Nowhere back then you know
00:39:43
but the Advent of facial wreck obviously
00:39:45
now those faces go into a um into a
00:39:47
machine that a cloud system that can
00:39:50
identify them in real time through
00:39:51
camera Tech so it's vastly improved but
00:39:54
um you know it's it's a tough job yeah
00:39:56
at least someone comes in with like fake
00:39:58
mustache and glasses oh genuinely you
00:40:00
know no I'm definitely not him yeah and
00:40:02
like the challenge back then was you
00:40:04
know we'd have customers who were um
00:40:06
lifetime exclusion customers of course
00:40:08
and you would get one photo but they
00:40:09
could be on that list for 10 years so
00:40:11
you try to pick up someone from a small
00:40:13
photo that was taken 10 years ago you
00:40:15
know it's not it's not particularly easy
00:40:17
but as I say technolog is again helping
00:40:19
us in this journey to kind of keep this
00:40:22
all in check yeah um one thing um like
00:40:25
occasional customers like me would um
00:40:28
notice is you get these notifications
00:40:30
about specials like spend 50 bucks we'll
00:40:32
give you another 50 bucks or whatever
00:40:34
what's the what's the goal with these
00:40:36
it's interest it's interesting because
00:40:38
it comes up a lot like people would
00:40:40
would think that it's um how do I it's
00:40:43
like an inducement kind of trying to get
00:40:45
you get you gambling the way that we
00:40:47
structure Promos in most gambling
00:40:48
businesses do is it's it's it's loss
00:40:50
insulation basically it's look you know
00:40:54
especially in the current environment
00:40:55
customers losing you know three races
00:40:58
straight they're usually calling it a
00:40:59
day so what our um specials are usually
00:41:01
aimed at doing is you know finding a way
00:41:04
to get that money back into your pocket
00:41:06
so that you can keep going and keep
00:41:07
enjoying the product you know we want
00:41:09
people when they take a bit to have a
00:41:11
enjoyable experience that that last some
00:41:13
a decent amount of time so it's sort of
00:41:14
a recycling of of of your your spend
00:41:17
basically to keep you engaged more to to
00:41:20
to not have it be a one or two race sort
00:41:22
of thing you extend that $20 out to to
00:41:24
three or four four four or five races
00:41:26
that's sort of the the theory behind um
00:41:28
generosity and it it seems to be going
00:41:30
pretty well yeah yeah cuz I know anyone
00:41:32
that's um like got it in for you guys
00:41:35
they'll think there's a sinister meaning
00:41:37
behind it like the idea is to get people
00:41:39
hooked oh for sure and look I think
00:41:40
there's there's there's versions of it
00:41:41
that have shown up in a way that are
00:41:43
problematic so I I look at What's happen
00:41:46
what's still happening overseas you know
00:41:48
if you're giving someone a ,000 sign up
00:41:50
bonus at some of these online casinos
00:41:52
which people do get um and then when
00:41:54
they put that $1,000 in and they get the
00:41:56
bonus to get the money out out they have
00:41:57
to play X hours before they can withdraw
00:41:59
like these are these are behaviors that
00:42:02
are not conducive to what I'm describing
00:42:05
here these are things that are designed
00:42:06
to get you in at a higher price point
00:42:08
than what you would have liked and to
00:42:09
keep you locked in there for a longer
00:42:10
period than what would otherwise be
00:42:12
acceptable you know those versions of it
00:42:14
are problematic I guess you know one
00:42:16
thing I do try to caution down here in
00:42:17
New Zealand is not thinking that that
00:42:19
because that's what's happening
00:42:20
somewhere that that's what we're doing
00:42:21
as well you know it's the same with
00:42:23
advertising like you know I talk like
00:42:25
I've been in the UK and God and even and
00:42:29
and it's hard even for me as someone who
00:42:32
loves loves punting to to sit there and
00:42:34
say that that's a healthy amount of
00:42:36
advertising for people to be seeing like
00:42:38
there's 70 operators operating in a
00:42:40
small space and you know it's it's
00:42:42
probably too much but what I try to
00:42:44
remind people down here when they talk
00:42:45
about gam advertising is that it's just
00:42:47
us you know like it's only the ti
00:42:50
advertising down here and you know we're
00:42:52
not running at the kind of frequency
00:42:54
that you see anywhere near offshore and
00:42:56
it's one of the great benefits of having
00:42:57
a sole operator in the market is that
00:42:59
you don't get in inundated with with
00:43:01
ads do do you feel like um lot lot gets
00:43:05
a free pass compared to you
00:43:08
guys like I your EDS are on TV a lot and
00:43:11
I know they're polarizing for some
00:43:12
people and then lot those ones and they
00:43:13
selling the stream of what you do if you
00:43:15
won $40 million do you I don't know if
00:43:18
they get a I mean I think and God i'
00:43:20
someone bit AFF to be honest I think
00:43:21
Lotto has been the most complained about
00:43:23
ad previously really yeah so I think it
00:43:25
does I think it does get a lot of
00:43:26
attention I mean I think I think the the
00:43:28
difference with Lotto which is which is
00:43:29
everyone will probably understand this
00:43:30
is that it's just not seen as gambling
00:43:32
to people you know what I mean um you
00:43:34
know it's it's seen as sort of this uh
00:43:37
you know it's Community good it's the
00:43:39
give back is much better understood for
00:43:41
lotto than what it is for tab you know
00:43:43
we fund racing and and Grassroots Sports
00:43:45
and and professional sport in New
00:43:46
Zealand to a really high degree but most
00:43:48
people don't know that they think it's
00:43:49
just a corporate business that that's
00:43:51
soaking up the profit whereas Lotto has
00:43:52
done a really fantastic job of helping
00:43:54
people understand that it does go back
00:43:56
out but more than just that it's just
00:43:58
that that form of gambling being Lottery
00:44:00
is just not seen the same as you know
00:44:02
wagering or casino gambling or class
00:44:04
fours it's yeah it just doesn't hit the
00:44:06
same kind of um note but you know
00:44:08
according to the definition of gambling
00:44:09
is very much gambling you know what I
00:44:11
mean yeah it's strange isn't it I
00:44:12
suppose because um I don't know maybe
00:44:14
it's a psychology thing because if
00:44:16
you're having a like a bed on a horse or
00:44:17
a sports game there's there's a there's
00:44:19
a there's a chance you're going to win
00:44:20
whereas Lotto you you you pretty much
00:44:23
know you're not going to win yeah you're
00:44:25
basically throwing the money I but I
00:44:27
don't know how the psychology of that
00:44:28
works yeah well it's it's why I mean
00:44:30
I've I've never been a lotto player
00:44:31
myself but it's because I feel like I
00:44:33
have probably too good a grip on
00:44:34
statistics if that makes sense but it's
00:44:36
each to their own you know I guess
00:44:37
that's the thing people people people
00:44:40
enjoy and and Dabble in all sorts of
00:44:42
activities for reasons that I can't
00:44:44
understand so I'm not I'm not going to
00:44:45
try to um try to trivialize what people
00:44:47
do but um yeah it's been incredible to
00:44:49
see I mean look we don't actually have a
00:44:51
a huge crossover of of our players to
00:44:54
Lotto either which does show you that it
00:44:55
is a different kind of activity you know
00:44:57
when when the lotto jackpot gets up it
00:44:59
doesn't mean that we have a a bad week
00:45:01
it seems to be that our customers
00:45:03
continue on so you know different
00:45:05
psychology probably as you described
00:45:06
yeah yeah cuz that's when I'll buy a
00:45:08
luto tiet when it's a like a a highly
00:45:10
publicized Power Ball drawer at 30
00:45:12
million or whatever and then uh so I'll
00:45:14
buy my $30 ticket or however much it is
00:45:16
then I'll immediately regret it the next
00:45:18
day it's like of course I wasn't going
00:45:19
to win yeah what's interesting cuz I
00:45:21
guess one thing though and again this is
00:45:23
not a this is not a shot at Lotto bying
00:45:24
stretch because like you know they
00:45:26
they're great but I mean like one thing
00:45:28
that we try to be really cautious of is
00:45:30
that gambling should never be especially
00:45:33
wagering should never be seen as a way
00:45:34
to relieve Financial pressure right like
00:45:36
it's not that it's a form of
00:45:37
entertainment where it's more than
00:45:39
likely you are going to lose it what
00:45:40
you're doing but you know I think that
00:45:42
the challenge sometimes with maybe um
00:45:46
the nature of the way that Lotto is is a
00:45:48
life-changing amount of money so becomes
00:45:50
hard to not present the uh the end goal
00:45:52
is something that will change your life
00:45:54
you know but it is it is a challenge for
00:45:56
them I think because you know Lotto is
00:45:58
not a sound way to alleviate Financial
00:46:01
pressure nor is nor is Bing on sports or
00:46:03
racing yeah where do you see um inan
00:46:06
being in like the next 5 to 10 years um
00:46:08
that's a good question
00:46:11
um look like the team at inan like if
00:46:15
you if you were to meet them you'll the
00:46:16
thing you'll take away is that we are
00:46:19
very passionate about racing in sport um
00:46:22
you know what what we want to see um is
00:46:24
is those sectors thriving down here in
00:46:26
New Zeal I on the racing side especially
00:46:29
I think that um it's a chronically under
00:46:31
told story just how incredible the
00:46:33
breeding sector is down here in New
00:46:35
Zealand um how we mix it up on the
00:46:37
racing scene with like the absolute best
00:46:39
in the world off of you know this
00:46:41
country that's got hardly any scale a
00:46:43
small population you know all the
00:46:45
challenges that come with being so far
00:46:47
removed geographically from everyone you
00:46:49
know we all want to see that Thrive and
00:46:51
you know certainly why I'm in the job
00:46:53
and I think that that's why everyone
00:46:54
else is so we want to play our role and
00:46:56
and building um building those sectors
00:46:58
up to be sort of the best things that
00:47:00
they can be and you know we've been
00:47:01
involved in things like the industry uh
00:47:03
intan industry Awards to try and develop
00:47:05
Pathways for people to get into into it
00:47:07
and yeah just really deliver and I guess
00:47:09
what how we do that is by delivering a
00:47:11
good product a wagering product to our
00:47:13
customers you know something that we can
00:47:14
be proud of I say my old boss got Mike
00:47:18
Tod is very very influential in my
00:47:21
career he said to me that number eight y
00:47:23
[ __ ] don't work anymore um kiwis don't
00:47:25
want to accept second r we we use we use
00:47:29
top end apps we use high quality
00:47:31
products like the idea that we can offer
00:47:33
up to New Zealand is something that's
00:47:35
below par relative to the rest of the
00:47:36
world just doesn't fly anymore and so
00:47:38
you know we we know as a business that
00:47:40
for us to I guess deliver on our vision
00:47:42
we have to deliver amazing products to
00:47:44
people and that's what we want to do you
00:47:46
may have you may have just answered this
00:47:47
before but um I'll ask it just in case
00:47:50
there's a different answer what do you
00:47:51
find most rewarding about your role oh
00:47:53
look it is the it is the it is the
00:47:54
industry so like it's it's hard to
00:47:56
explain I thought about kind of this
00:47:58
concept on the way over think it might
00:47:59
be something you'd ask um like from when
00:48:02
I was a graduate in in this job like I
00:48:05
was very much and I I think this was a
00:48:07
somewhat unique experience at least the
00:48:09
way the intensity of how I felt it like
00:48:12
I always felt like I there were people
00:48:14
who relied on me to do a good job um and
00:48:17
in this case like the stakeholders of
00:48:19
racing and sports industry you know the
00:48:20
people who are playing amateur sport who
00:48:22
who who who need funding the people who
00:48:24
are in the racing game who are trying
00:48:26
struggling to make in meet I always felt
00:48:28
a very real obligation to those people
00:48:30
and I still do um you know and I think
00:48:34
it came it comes with so much pressure
00:48:36
because you know you you sort of feel
00:48:37
like you're carrying the weight of the
00:48:38
world which you're not always but but
00:48:41
but I always felt like doing a good job
00:48:43
for them was the thing I wanted most
00:48:46
basically out of anything in the world
00:48:47
you know and I guess what I find
00:48:49
rewarding especially now with with uh
00:48:51
the AME partnership in full swing is
00:48:52
that we have a realistic shot of doing
00:48:54
the best job that we could have um so
00:48:56
that's that's probably the part of it
00:48:58
that I find most rewarding is when I see
00:49:00
you know them getting a leg up really
00:49:03
yeah and and within our own business you
00:49:05
know I like I said we're the biggest
00:49:07
broadcaster of Life sport in New Zealand
00:49:08
and when we were trying to scrap
00:49:10
together you know rub two coins together
00:49:12
to make a third to survive we had a
00:49:14
whole broadcasting division that weren't
00:49:15
able to be broadcasters you know just
00:49:17
became a film the next race move on and
00:49:20
yeah I get a lot of satisfaction from
00:49:22
seeing them being able to do good work
00:49:24
um with with good tools and you know I'm
00:49:27
a proud kiwi and I I want to see New
00:49:29
Zealand be able to mix it up with the
00:49:31
best in the world and be given the
00:49:32
settings to do it you know um so all of
00:49:34
that is is what I find really rewarding
00:49:35
I suppose yeah how long are you going to
00:49:37
be around for must be a a stressful
00:49:40
job yeah it is I don't know like it's
00:49:43
it's easy when you do you do love it but
00:49:46
oh look I think that for me um I'm only
00:49:48
33 so that's probably the other thing
00:49:49
people should should know about me I'm
00:49:51
still quite quite young and I've still
00:49:52
got a oh yeah [ __ ] you've done a lot I
00:49:55
know I've done a lot but no I have the
00:49:57
the I think I say this all time I the
00:49:59
the insane privilege of looking a lot
00:50:00
older than I was so when I walk into
00:50:02
these sittings where I probably didn't
00:50:03
belong um no one really questioned it at
00:50:06
least not visually you know which is
00:50:08
which is a privilege I think about all
00:50:09
the time um that not everyone had the
00:50:11
the benefit of but yeah I'm only I'm
00:50:12
only 30 33 and so you know I really want
00:50:15
to see see this part of my my life out I
00:50:18
want to see um this industry do well I
00:50:20
want to see New Zealand has be given a
00:50:21
great product I want to see our our
00:50:24
products be safer than they've ever been
00:50:26
um and I want I want to make sure that
00:50:27
we're on a pathway towards uh
00:50:30
sustainability for all of those things
00:50:31
so I guess yeah when that's when that's
00:50:33
over hopefully I can move on to the next
00:50:35
thing but for now I'll be sticking
00:50:36
around yeah yeah hey this has been
00:50:38
really enjoyable today cam thanks so
00:50:39
much for coming over thanks for
00:50:40
answering those questions um yeah yeah
00:50:44
yeah yeah hopefully anyone that I mean
00:50:47
anyone that's got an issue with the T
00:50:48
wouldn't probably listen to a podcast
00:50:50
like this anyway cuz they'll accuse it
00:50:51
of being propaganda or whatever um but I
00:50:54
I really I'm looking forward to working
00:50:56
with B
00:50:57
and um I've really enjoyed having you on
00:50:58
the podcast today to answer some of
00:50:59
those um curly questions no no problem
00:51:01
at all and look we're really excited
00:51:03
about this partnership and um yeah
00:51:05
hopefully your viewers can get a sense
00:51:06
that we are um you know that we
00:51:08
legitimately um care about the stuff
00:51:10
that we've talked about today and if
00:51:12
they ever see me and want to have a chat
00:51:13
and just feel free I'm very approachable
00:51:15
um yeah be careful be careful what you
00:51:17
throw out yeah no I mean it though
00:51:19
honestly um you you realize that we're
00:51:20
just we are we are not faceless
00:51:23
corporates that sit around the board
00:51:24
table trying to find ways to pinch money
00:51:25
out of people's pockets it's just not
00:51:27
who we are so um anyone who wants to
00:51:29
come up and have a chat feel free oh
00:51:31
yeah and and you guys are let's not
00:51:33
let's not forget you guys are under
00:51:34
intense scrutiny as well of course
00:51:36
there's people people breathing down
00:51:38
your neck right yeah yeah oh no
00:51:39
absolutely and for good reason you know
00:51:41
I don't I don't ever um get get
00:51:44
frustrated about that side of things I
00:51:45
mean you have a we are given a great
00:51:47
responsibility in New Zealand to be able
00:51:49
to sell products like that we do to the
00:51:51
New Zealand Public should come with
00:51:52
scrutiny and look um it absolutely does
00:51:55
and it's something that we Embrace so we
00:51:56
just got to keep doing a good job cam
00:51:59
Roger managing director in New Zealand
00:52:00
thank you so much for coming on the
00:52:01
podcast no problem thanks for having me
00:52:03
Don