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Welcome to personal finance for
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long-term investors, where we believe
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Benjamin Franklin's advice that an
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investment in knowledge pays the best
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interest both in finances [music] and in
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your life. Every episode teaches you
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personal finance and long-term investing
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in simple terms. Now, here's your host,
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Jesse Kramer. Welcome to Personal
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Finance for long-term investors, episode
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123. My name is Jesse Kramer. By day, I
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work at a fiduciary wealth management
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firm helping clients nationwide. You can
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learn more at bestinterest.blog/work.
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The link is in the show notes. By night,
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I write the best interest blog. I host
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this podcast. I put out a weekly email
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newsletter, too. And all those projects
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help busy professionals and retirees
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avoid mistakes and grow their wealth by
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simplifying their investing, their
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taxes, and their retirement planning. It
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seems like many Americans feel time a
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poor even when objective free time may
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exist. It's the something I should be
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doing effect. And in financial planning,
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we often focus on saving money,
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investing money, the money in
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retirement, taxes, but time itself, of
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course, is a resource and one that is
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increasingly perceived as scarce. So,
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how do we align our financial plan with
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our time plan, if you will? Well,
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today's episode is going to focus on
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time, and Andy Hill is going to help us
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think about time later on. First, we'll
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do a quick review of the week, and I'll
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do a very brief reading for you. The
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review of the week is from Fartsky. Yes,
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Fartsky. Fartsky left a review on
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Spotify saying, "This podcast is the
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best. Jesse provides his honest,
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educated, and clear perspective on all
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things finance related. You can tell
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Jesse is not only crazy smart, but also
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passionate about personal finance and
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loves to educate his listeners. Most
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importantly, he has integrity, and he's
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not shilling for anything or anyone.
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Whether you're a beginner trying to
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figure out what a 401k is, or an
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advanced person trying to tackle
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complicated Irma rules and Roth
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conversions, this is the podcast for
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you." Well, Fartsky, great work on the
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screen name and thank you for those very
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kind words. I'd be happy to send you a
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super soft podcast t-shirt. So, please
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drop me an email to jesseb
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bestinest.blog so I can get that sent
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out to you. And again, before Andy Hill
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joins us today, I want to share some
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thoughts from a 2023 article I wrote
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called Get Your Time Back. Going back to
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1790, the US Census counted about 4
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million Americans. 90% of those 4
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million Americans lived on farms.
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Granted, not all of them worked at the
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farm, but you get the gist. Agriculture
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was huge. Food was so hard to produce
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that only 10% of the population could
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afford to not be involved in
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agriculture. Now, today only 1.3% of the
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American workforce participates in
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farming. I I'll share a chart with you
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in this uh in this article and I
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recommend you look at it, but it's an
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amazing looking chart and essentially
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what it shows is that farming
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productivity and farming total output
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have increased incredibly over in this
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case it's a 70-year timeline. So, so
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farming has increased incredibly over
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the past 70 years despite the inputs of
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labor and land use dropping
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precipitously. So, less people hours,
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less labor, and less land is being used
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for farming. And yet farming production
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goes up and up and up and up. Of course,
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that change has been hugely beneficial
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for both American and global society.
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Norman Borlo, if you don't know Dr.
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Norman Borlo, it's worth checking him
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out. He's credited with saving 1 billion
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lives. Billion with a B. 1 billion lives
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through his work in agricultural
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productivity. And one of the takeaways
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from that data set and takeaways
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combining, you know, the work of Norman
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Borlo is the fact that specialization,
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efficiency, innovation, and productivity
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move society forward because other
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people were dragging the plows at the
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time. Norman Borlong didn't have to,
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right? He could go into the lab. He
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could specialize in the sciences and he
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changed the world because of it. barely
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any of us drag plows today and we're
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able to help out humanity in other
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specific productive and innovative ways.
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And that's both true on the the macro
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level, like feeding an entire nation or
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feeding an entire globe, but it's also
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true on the micro level. And when I
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wrote this article in that month, my
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wife and I, we had spent $1,200 to hire
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a threeman painting team to paint the
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walls and paint the ceilings in our
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living room. It's a really tall room.
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It's probably got, I don't know, a 16 ft
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ceiling, a 20ft ceiling. So, they spent
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a lot of their time up on ladders,
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reaching high with rollers, doing, you
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know, all those little corners. And for
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those of you wondering at home, the
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answer is shoji white. That's the color
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we went with. Now, $1,200 for this
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specified trade. Spending $1,200,
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nothing to scoff at, right? It's real
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money. But if we break it down, 200
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bucks was probably for the materials. We
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would have spent that anyway if we did
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the painting ourselves. The remaining
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$1,000 was paid for maybe 20 22 hours of
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expert painting labor. I'll say it was
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20. So it was 50 bucks an hour, right?
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20 hours, $1,000. 50 bucks an hour for
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their labor. But I don't think we should
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measure their time as much as we should
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measure our time, like my time, my
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wife's time. I mean, how much time and
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hassle did we save by hiring these
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experts? They could paint with way more
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skill and efficiency than I can. It took
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them 20 hours of ladders and rollers. it
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would have taken me, you know, 50 hours
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and I I would have fallen off and, you
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know, dislocated my shoulder. Is $1,000
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worth saving 40 hours of of hassle? In
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my book, the answer is a pretty easy
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yes. And I don't think we're alone in
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that opinion. You know, better tools,
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better machines, and more skilled labor
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have vastly reduced the amount of time
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Americans spend on chores. So, going
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back to 1965, this is when this first
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data is from 1965, uh, the average
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American couple spent 35 hours a week on
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housework. Overwhelmingly, it was
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mothers over fathers. Again, this table
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just looks at mothers and fathers. I
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realize that other people can be
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involved. Fast forward to say 1985,
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about 30 hours a week. So, dropping from
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35 to about 30 hours. And in in 1985,
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about 20 hours a week from mothers, 10
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hours a week from fathers. Fast forward
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to today, the answer is about 27 hours a
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week. still more mothers than fathers,
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but still from 35 hours a week down to
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when I say 27, 28 hours a week right
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now. Washing machines, blenders,
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lawnmowers, you name it. We're
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surrounded by tools and in some cases
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we're surrounded by skilled workers who
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can save us time. And it's worth
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considering how much is your time worth.
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As Ruben Miller once wrote, "Buy your
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freaking time back. What do you hate
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doing that you can pay someone else to
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do? Time is an ethereal concept and so
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thinking this way can feel unnatural.
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But most of the physical crap we buy
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doesn't make us any happier. Whereas at
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least I know how to enjoy myself if I
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had more time. As you have more and more
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money, buying your time gets relatively
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cheaper and cheaper. We're all going to
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die probably before we want to. And for
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a lot of us, we will die with plenty of
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money in the bank. And our regret will
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be not enough time with people we love,
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not enough time for places to see, not
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enough time to do the things we wanted
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to do. Unfortunately, there are very few
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ways to get more of it. So, go freaking
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buy it. So, you don't have to hire out
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everything in your life, nor should you
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give up the reigns completely. You know,
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you can go ahead and and stay in the
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loop. But if you don't like a chore, and
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if you're not good at that chore, or if
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you're extremely slow at that chore,
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well, what are you doing? You might want
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to hire that out to a professional. For
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thousands of years, we all had to be
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farmers because that's the only way we
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could eat. But that's not the case
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anymore. Again, tip of the hat to Norman
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Borlo for that. So, buy your freaking
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time back. Spend it honing your
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specialization so people hire you to do
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the stuff that you're great at. Or
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better yet, spend some time doing the
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things that you love. Personally, I
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never want to fall off a ladder with a
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paint roller in my hand thinking to
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myself, "Is ghost champagne really a
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different shade of white than eggshell
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cream?" We need to get our time back.
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Here's a quick ad and then we'll get
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back to the show. Serious question. Why
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do podcasters constantly ask for ratings
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and reviews? Yes, they do help highlight
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our shows to new listeners. They help
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strangers find us on Apple Podcast and
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Spotify. It's totally true and a good
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reason to ask for ratings and reviews.
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But I have something more important, at
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least more important to me. I want to
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know if you like this stuff. I want to
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know if you like my podcast episodes, my
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monologues, my guests, the information I
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share with you and the stories I tell. I
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want to improve and make your listening
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more enjoyable in the process. So yeah,
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I would love to read your reviews. And
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sure, if you throw a rating in there,
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too, that's great. If you like what I'm
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doing, please share it with me. It's
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such a great feeling to read your
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feedback. I'd love to read your review
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or see a rating on Apple Podcast or
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Spotify. Thank you. And with that, let's
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kick things over to Andy Hill. Andy is
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the award-winning blogger and podcaster
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behind Marriage, Kids, and Money, which
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is dedicated to helping young families
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build wealth and thrive. Today you'll
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hear us talking about Andy's latest
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project, a book coming out in early 2026
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called Own Your Time: 10 Financial Steps
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to Put Your Family First and Escape the
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Corporate Grind. So, when it comes to
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getting your time back, fixing that
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feeling of feeling time poor or aligning
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your financial plan with your time plan,
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Andy [music] is a really good resource
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for that and I'm excited to hear what he
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has to tell us today.
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Andy, you know, one thing I love about
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personal finance and financial planning
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is that there are all these nooks and
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crannies, you know, ripe for amazing
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conversation and and sometimes me and
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you and and the listeners out there, we
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might get burnt out on tax planning. Oh,
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but then then we go read up on investing
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allocation. We get burnt out on
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frugalism, but oh, we go read about
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Medicare. And it's been a while since I
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got a chance to dive deep on the topic
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of time. Time, the ultimate limited
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resource. And I know you're working on a
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really cool project all about time. So I
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thought we'd start the conversation with
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chapter one, so to speak. How do we
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begin the journey to truly owning our
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time?
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>> Oh, what a great question. Yes, I love
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talking about time because as you said,
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it is finite and we only get 168 hours
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in the week, right? We can't
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>> we can create more time. We can create
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more money, but we create can't create
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more time. So to support that
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conversation, I think it really comes
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back to what do you want to do with that
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time, you know? So I think when I start
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these conversations, a lot of our
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discussions, Jesse, can be around money,
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can be around finance because we know
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what that can do for our future. But I
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really want to encourage people, and I
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have to encourage myself sometimes to
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really think back about why we're
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building this wealth, why we're
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accumulating this net worth number or
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eliminating the debt, all those cool,
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you know, things that really excite me,
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but why are we doing it? And so when we
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really think back and we look deeply, we
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have to ask ourselves those questions.
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What are my goals? How do I want to
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change my future? How do I see things
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differently for myself 5 years from now?
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And really building up the reason for
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owning more of that time. What am I what
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do I want to be doing here? What do I
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want to be doing with my life? What am I
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not doing now that I want to be doing in
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the future? Or what am I spending too
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much of my time doing now that I don't
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want to be doing in the future? Those
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are really great questions to ask
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yourself as you start this journey of
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time ownership, time freedom.
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>> Are there any specific exercises you
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recommend that help us to find that life
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we want to live that allow us to, you
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know, in your own words, I think is, you
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know, carving out some time to dream.
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What specifically does that look like?
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>> I think it's just how it sounds, too.
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And I think sometimes people have
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difficulty with that because when we
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were kids, we dreamed a lot. We dreamed
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of being rock stars or sports athletes
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or whatever really cool things because
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those people dared to go dream and do
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something really cool and then we got
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older and we got our corporate gigs and
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we were pretty busy and we forgot to
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dream. It's like our it's like our
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dreaming muscle atrophied from a life in
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the corporate [clears throat] world or
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all just all the general demands of life
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as as we get older. So I think it's
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incumbent on us to take that time to
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literally carve it out of our schedules
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to say what am I going to do for 15
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minutes, 30 minutes to just block
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everything out and dream a little bit.
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What do I want to do for my future?
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Where do I want to go? And sometimes
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that's difficult for people to
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physically sit down and write it down
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and then develop goals. People maybe
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don't have that ability. What I like to
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do is do some fun exercises to say,
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"Okay, if you went to your mailbox right
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now, Jesse, and you got a check for $5
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million in there, don't worry about the
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taxes. Don't worry about any of that
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stuff." Like, you get it free and clear,
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and it's in your bank account. What
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would you stop doing immediately?
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>> That's more of like a subtraction goal
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>> as opposed to like what do I want to be,
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where do I want to go? Think about what
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you'd stop doing. And if your first
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reaction is, well, I would quit my soul
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sucking job because it is not fulfilling
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at all and I would say goodbye and
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thanks and peace out. Okay, that is
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informative. But maybe after you took a
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breath, you'd say, "Okay, well actually
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I like what I do. I just wouldn't want
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to do it so much. You know, I do it 50
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hours a week, 60 hours a week. I like
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what I do. Maybe if I could do that like
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20 hours a week, that'd be good. That
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way I could spend a lot more time with
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my family. I could spend more time, you
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know, taking care of my health. my
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health goals have kind of gone gone
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away. These other big priorities in our
00:13:02
life have been pushed aside. So if you
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can't think of it in a dream standpoint
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of just sitting down and coming up with
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those big goals, maybe think about it
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from a subtraction point. What would I
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want to take away? Or if that doesn't
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work, think about your fears. Think
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about the things that you're constantly
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worried about that are on your mind all
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of the time. What are those constant
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fears? and how could increasing your
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wealth and growing your wealth help you
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to eliminate some of those fears. So, I
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think that's a great place to start and
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really that does take some time to carve
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out in your schedule to say, "I'm going
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to sit down. I'm going to write this
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down and really think about it and have
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some fun with it."
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>> Yeah, I really like the the subtraction
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question as you put it. It reminds me,
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you know, it's a Charlie Mer type thing
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of like invert always invert. You don't
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have to think about the amazing things
00:13:47
you do with $5 million. Like think about
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the first biggest thing you'd take out
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of your life. And that's a perfectly
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fine way of of solving the problem. Or
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um I think it's George Kinder, right?
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Not George Kinder, but George Kinder,
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who's got these three life planning
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questions. And and a couple of his
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questions, if I'm I'm getting them
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loosely right, one of them is, you know,
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if you got a diagnosis that you had, you
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know, 5 to 10 years to live. Thankfully,
00:14:08
you're not going to be in any pain. You
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just don't know between 5 and 10 years
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when it's coming. What would you change
00:14:13
today? A second question he has that's
00:14:15
similar is that he I think he calls it
00:14:16
the mortality question which is like if
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you knew you were going to die you have
00:14:20
24 hours left to live
00:14:21
>> immediately what comes to mind as these
00:14:23
kind of like regrets or things you wish
00:14:25
you would have done more of or things
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you wish you would have done less of
00:14:28
>> and it's just these you know stimulating
00:14:30
conversations to help us think about of
00:14:32
planning the life itself but you know
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I'm thinking as we start thinking of
00:14:36
these answers to those questions you
00:14:38
devote a lot of time in in the book to
00:14:40
something called the coastfire idea like
00:14:43
the coastire framework I'll call it and
00:14:45
I'm sure some audience members probably
00:14:46
know exactly what I'm talking about when
00:14:48
I say coastfire but do you mind starting
00:14:50
with just a quick definition of what
00:14:51
that term means but then tell us maybe
00:14:54
more specifically why coast fire is such
00:14:56
an important milestone for time
00:14:58
ownership
00:14:59
>> yeah absolutely well to define coastfire
00:15:01
I would first recommend defining fire to
00:15:04
help people and I know that you guys
00:15:06
probably talk about that at the show
00:15:07
quite a bit because it can be a goal for
00:15:09
some people out there but it essentially
00:15:11
is born from this movement of people who
00:15:14
were frustrated with this corporate
00:15:16
grind really having that thought in
00:15:18
their brains saying I don't think humans
00:15:21
are meant to be clacking away on their
00:15:22
computers inside cubicle offices for the
00:15:24
majority of their life and we got to
00:15:26
break free from this madness. So their
00:15:28
idea was hey save and invest a huge
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chunk maybe 50% or more of my income for
00:15:35
15 years and then I'm out of this rat
00:15:37
race and then I can go do whatever I
00:15:38
want. I think that's a very inspiring
00:15:41
movement and it has been a very
00:15:42
inspiring movement. The problem with
00:15:44
that movement is that it's usually
00:15:46
really great for highincome earners and
00:15:51
it's very difficult if you have another
00:15:53
spouse on board and some other kids and
00:15:56
some other people that you need to care
00:15:57
about that also need to go along with
00:15:58
you on this journey. It can be a little
00:16:00
bit more difficult. So what was born out
00:16:03
of the fire movement was also this
00:16:04
coastfire movement. This essentially
00:16:06
says, "Yeah, you know what? I don't
00:16:08
think we're supposed to be in this
00:16:09
corporate world for 40 years. What about
00:16:11
15 years? That sounds great. But could
00:16:13
we just like slow that down a little
00:16:15
bit, maybe save like 30%. And then
00:16:17
instead of ceasing work altogether in 15
00:16:20
years, what about just going part-time?"
00:16:22
You know, just saying, "Hey, I don't
00:16:24
like what I'm doing full-time, but maybe
00:16:25
I could do it part-time or maybe I could
00:16:26
start my own little part-time business
00:16:28
or something like that." Because
00:16:30
research has shown, as you've probably
00:16:31
heard, Jesse, having some sort of
00:16:34
purpose or ability to give back and some
00:16:37
meaningful work is good for you long
00:16:39
term. So, I even see myself doing some
00:16:42
sort of part-time work even in
00:16:44
retirement. I think that's there's
00:16:45
research that backs that up that it's
00:16:47
great for retirees to have purpose and
00:16:50
meaning and joy in their life. So
00:16:52
Coastfire is sort of a middle way when
00:16:55
you compare the traditional retirement
00:16:57
plan of hey I'm going to work for 40
00:16:59
years maybe save 15% and then I'll
00:17:01
really be able to enjoy myself when I'm
00:17:03
65 and then the o opposite of like let
00:17:06
me grind away for 15 years saving the
00:17:08
majority of of what I'm I'm earning and
00:17:11
it's going to be really tough for those
00:17:12
15 years but at least I'll have some
00:17:14
freedom on the other end. Coastfire is
00:17:15
that middle way.
00:17:16
>> And we've had enough conversations Andy
00:17:18
and I I know enough about your content.
00:17:20
I mean, would you define your family
00:17:22
right now in some sort of coastfier
00:17:25
state or something? You're somewhere in
00:17:28
that region, aren't you? Absolutely. I
00:17:30
would wear that hat gladly. It would be
00:17:31
a nice hat and uh happy to wear that.
00:17:33
Yeah, we about three years ago, both my
00:17:36
wife and I took this adventure, this
00:17:39
philosophy of Coastfire and said, "Hey,
00:17:41
let's really lean into this." We had
00:17:43
invested about $500,000 for our
00:17:47
retirement. This is, you know,
00:17:48
traditional IAS, Roth IAS, HSAs, things
00:17:51
like that. And by doing the projections,
00:17:53
we could see in about 20 years from now,
00:17:55
with a very conservative real rate of
00:17:57
return, 6 7% that we would have about $2
00:18:00
million
00:18:01
at 60 without any further contributions
00:18:04
to our retirement plans. And that gave
00:18:07
us pause and we said, well, if we don't
00:18:09
need to keep contributing to this thing
00:18:11
and we still get to our retirement zone
00:18:13
that we need to be in, could we just
00:18:15
work less? And so that was something we
00:18:17
decided to do. Both my wife and I have
00:18:19
gone to part-time work as of about three
00:18:22
years ago. She works part-time as an
00:18:24
aesthetician. She went back to school to
00:18:27
learn a new trade because she was sick
00:18:29
of corporate marketing and wanted to try
00:18:31
something new. So she uh learned that
00:18:34
skill and she's doing that part-time.
00:18:36
She works Tuesday, Thursday, Friday. And
00:18:38
now I am a family finance coach and a
00:18:41
financial educator online. And I try to
00:18:44
smush my week into Tuesday through
00:18:46
Thursday. I do bleed in a little bit on
00:18:48
Monday. I'm probably like a three and a
00:18:50
half day kind of work guy right now.
00:18:52
Fridays I try to religiously always try
00:18:54
to take Friday off just because it feels
00:18:56
good. But longterm I'd love to have a
00:18:59
three-day work week and a 4-day weekend.
00:19:00
I just feel like that just feels right.
00:19:02
You know, we look at that typical week
00:19:04
and we got seven days. I don't know who
00:19:06
decided that five days need to be
00:19:08
working and two days need to be
00:19:10
relaxing. Let's flip the script here if
00:19:12
we can with our money. And so my wife
00:19:13
and I are experimenting with that right
00:19:14
now. I was just it's literally it's the
00:19:17
it's the next question I have down on my
00:19:18
ideation sheet over here was, you know,
00:19:20
you kind of start with this coastfire
00:19:22
idea. You start with this idea that
00:19:23
maybe we can start to take our foot off
00:19:25
the pedal, literally start that coast
00:19:27
that vehicle for a while. And along with
00:19:29
that comes this idea of well, do I still
00:19:30
need to keep working full-time or not?
00:19:32
And I give you credit, Andy, that
00:19:34
three-day work week has such an
00:19:35
appealing label to it, right? Instead of
00:19:37
five, five on, two off, I could do three
00:19:39
on and four off. So again, what does
00:19:41
that look like for someone? I'm I'm
00:19:43
thinking of this mid-career professional
00:19:44
right now who first maybe they need to
00:19:48
do some math to understand if they've
00:19:50
reached Coast themselves. And and I
00:19:52
don't know, you know, are there any like
00:19:53
go-to, you know, you've got the 4% rule,
00:19:56
that kind of thing. Are there any go-to
00:19:57
rules when it comes to Coast Fire? Let's
00:19:59
start with that one. Yeah, I would say
00:20:01
the numbers evolve over time based on
00:20:03
what $500,000 means in 2025 versus 2020,
00:20:07
you know, so you really need to keep
00:20:08
fluid with that. There's some great free
00:20:10
calculators online that help you to
00:20:12
calculate your cofire situation. We've
00:20:14
developed one on our website that's
00:20:15
helpful for folks. But essentially, the
00:20:17
numbers that you need to know are how
00:20:19
much do I spend today for my comfortable
00:20:23
life? I don't say my depriving life or
00:20:25
my abundant life, too. It's somewhere in
00:20:27
the middle of like, yeah, I've got mo
00:20:29
I've got all of my needs and most of my
00:20:31
wants. You know, I I got most of them. I
00:20:33
don't have I don't have everything, but
00:20:34
I have a comfortable life. So, having
00:20:36
that number of your annual expenses is
00:20:38
very important. And I think that
00:20:40
adventure right there is a big one for a
00:20:42
lot of people. Most people know how much
00:20:44
they make. Not many people know how much
00:20:46
they spend, but that number of how much
00:20:48
you spend is much more important than
00:20:51
how much you earn. So that exercise
00:20:53
right there of just learning how much
00:20:55
you spend each year to make a
00:20:56
comfortable life can be a gold mine for
00:21:00
your future retirement needs. So having
00:21:02
that information and then also having
00:21:04
how much have I actually saved or
00:21:06
invested for my retirement in the
00:21:08
future. Again, people might just be
00:21:10
hitting the autoc contribute button on
00:21:12
their 401k, which is fantastic. But it's
00:21:14
good to know that number to see where
00:21:16
you are and gauge how close you are to
00:21:18
hitting this milestone. Because that
00:21:20
realization that you've done the work
00:21:23
can be very gratifying to say, "Wow, do
00:21:27
I care more about having three, four,
00:21:30
five, $6 million in retirement when I'm
00:21:33
60, 70 years old, or do I care more
00:21:36
about working less in my 30s, 40s, and
00:21:40
50s so that I can own more of my time,
00:21:44
take care of my health, spend more time
00:21:45
with my family,
00:21:48
God willing, have some more hobbies,
00:21:50
spend time with aging parents, all these
00:21:51
other identities that are very important
00:21:54
in people's lives besides worker. If we
00:21:57
can lean into those other identities, I
00:21:58
think we can find a lot more joy in our
00:22:01
lives, a lot more meaning, a lot more
00:22:03
purpose. Community leader, volunteer,
00:22:06
athlete, singer, what do you like to do?
00:22:08
Like lean into those things. I think
00:22:10
that is where joy can be really found.
00:22:13
And obviously spending time with people
00:22:16
that you love. I got to interview Robert
00:22:19
Walddinger who is the director of the
00:22:22
Harvard adult study of development is
00:22:24
the 85y year study of essentially what
00:22:28
makes people happy and he shared that
00:22:31
two results of that obviously the first
00:22:33
result is eat healthy and exercise
00:22:36
that's the one we all know right but the
00:22:37
second one which was surprising to him
00:22:39
was people who lived the longest
00:22:41
happiest lives were people who had the
00:22:45
best relationships people who spent time
00:22:47
with people who lifted them up, that
00:22:50
kept them happy, and they did the same
00:22:52
to them. So leaning into those types of
00:22:54
relationships in your 40s, 30s, 50s is
00:22:59
much more important in my eyes than
00:23:01
having 4 million, 5 million, $6 million
00:23:04
in the investment account when you're 60
00:23:07
or 70 because unfortunately the average
00:23:10
mortality age in America is 78. 75 for
00:23:14
fellas, Jesse. Just right.
00:23:16
>> No fun.
00:23:17
>> No, it's f. I mean, listeners might have
00:23:20
heard me say this before, Andy, and you
00:23:21
might be familiar with this research,
00:23:22
too, but this is, I think, something
00:23:23
that Fritz Gilbert over at Retirement
00:23:25
Manifesto did where it's there's some
00:23:27
cool stats about the biggest concerns of
00:23:29
pre-retirees versus the biggest concerns
00:23:31
of post-retirees. And the pre-retirees
00:23:33
are always I shouldn't say this, but in
00:23:35
general, pre-retirees are most concerned
00:23:37
about finances.
00:23:38
>> Yep. in general, right? Post-retirees
00:23:41
say, "Oh, I didn't realize how socially
00:23:44
isolating retirement would be if, you
00:23:46
know, assuming they didn't go into a
00:23:48
retirement with a socialization plan,
00:23:50
with a plan for their pursuing their
00:23:52
hobbies or passions." And they say
00:23:54
things like, "Retirement's lonelier than
00:23:56
I thought. Retirement's more boring than
00:23:58
I thought. The money's fine, but yeah,
00:24:00
just, you know, it's it's the lifestyle
00:24:02
that's not there." And I think that's a
00:24:04
really important fate that we we want to
00:24:07
avoid. Here's a quick ad and then we'll
00:24:09
get back to the show. I send a free
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Jesse, I don't want another email.
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for free at bestinterinterest.blog.
00:24:58
But anyway, going going back to uh uh
00:25:00
Coastfire a little bit and that
00:25:02
three-day work week. That's the thing I
00:25:03
wanted to ask you about with that
00:25:04
three-day work week. I mean, any tips
00:25:06
for someone who is maybe they're they're
00:25:07
the fiveday corporate grinder. They're
00:25:09
that 60 hour a week person who you
00:25:11
mentioned before. Maybe they even love
00:25:12
the work that they're doing, but they've
00:25:14
gone to your Coast calculator. They've
00:25:16
realized they're there. They feel it in
00:25:18
their heart that they want to start
00:25:19
slowing down. I mean, any like kind of
00:25:21
practical tips and tricks for
00:25:24
>> coasting down into that 3-day work week
00:25:26
lifestyle? What does that look like?
00:25:28
Yeah, first of all, congratulations for
00:25:29
investing so much that that you did that
00:25:31
because that is the hardest part of
00:25:34
doing all this. The fun part, which
00:25:36
also, you know, as you mentioned, could
00:25:38
be scary because we're not used to it,
00:25:40
>> is something that we should take in baby
00:25:42
steps, right? It should be really
00:25:44
stepped down to it. For you to say, hey,
00:25:46
I'm investing 30% or 50% into my
00:25:49
retirement and I'm going to go to zero
00:25:51
immediately would probably do a jolt to
00:25:53
your system. So maybe the first step is
00:25:56
instead of stopping contributions
00:25:58
altogether to your retirement, maybe
00:26:00
you're doing a 401k and you're doing a
00:26:02
Roth IRA, maybe just starting to pair
00:26:05
back those contributions on a monthly
00:26:07
basis, but take that money and say, can
00:26:12
I put this now in an FU money fund,
00:26:16
maybe some sort of savings account where
00:26:19
I will allow myself to have a bridge out
00:26:22
of this 60hour work situation, maybe
00:26:26
into a 20 or 30 hour work situation.
00:26:30
Maybe that's your own consultancy doing
00:26:33
what you do best. Maybe that's working
00:26:35
at your current employer and just
00:26:37
saying, "Hey, do you guys have part-time
00:26:40
opportunities here? Do I have a
00:26:41
relationship with my manager where I can
00:26:43
have that type of conversation?" If you
00:26:44
don't have that type of relationship
00:26:45
with your manager, don't have that type
00:26:47
of conversation. Maybe that there's
00:26:49
opportunities out there in other
00:26:50
companies looking for part-time work or
00:26:51
you've always wanted to start that
00:26:54
soloreneur business where you are the
00:26:56
boss and you make the decisions. I think
00:26:58
when we have money in the bank like a
00:27:01
sixmon or 12 month runway of cash to
00:27:05
support you and your family, you gain
00:27:07
that confidence
00:27:09
and autonomy to say, I'm going to give
00:27:12
this a go. And that's really what my
00:27:14
wife and I did. after we hit coastfire,
00:27:15
after we paid off our mortgage, we saved
00:27:17
up 12 months of expenses in a savings
00:27:19
account and said,
00:27:21
>> I'm going to try this whole like family
00:27:23
finance coach podcast thing that I've
00:27:27
been doing and see how it goes. And so
00:27:29
we launched in January of 2020 with my
00:27:32
wife's pat on the back say, "You got
00:27:33
this, man." And I launched into it. The
00:27:36
first two months, man, they were
00:27:37
fantastic. I was I had contracts. I was
00:27:40
growing my business. And then March
00:27:43
2020, something happened. I think you
00:27:45
guys know what happened. [laughter]
00:27:47
>> And it became really scary.
00:27:49
>> Mhm.
00:27:50
>> Contracts went away. The idea that I had
00:27:53
taken this plunge and put my family
00:27:56
along with me became very scary. And I
00:27:59
became very depressed and I had some
00:28:01
tears and I needed some moments with my
00:28:04
family, my friends to really say, "Hey,
00:28:07
man, you've got this." It was low. But
00:28:10
what I did have was 12 months of money
00:28:13
in the bank for me to be guided through
00:28:16
this process over the next year, two
00:28:19
years. And if I didn't have that, I
00:28:22
would have ran back to my corporate job
00:28:24
saying, "I am so sorry. Please take me
00:28:27
back. I made a mistake." But really,
00:28:29
that 12 months of runway gave me the
00:28:31
confidence to say, "Hey, man. Dip into
00:28:34
me. It's okay. Utilize this money.
00:28:36
That's why you did it. So that you can
00:28:39
live a better life in the future. And if
00:28:41
I can go through a 100year every 100year
00:28:44
global pandemic for my small business, I
00:28:47
believe that people can do it as well.
00:28:50
It helps when you've got some FU money
00:28:51
set aside.
00:28:52
>> Oh, totally. Totally. Yeah. And boy,
00:28:54
there's a one of my go-to phrases is
00:28:56
that for some people money buys
00:28:57
happiness. For some people it doesn't
00:28:59
buy happiness. But for almost all
00:29:00
people, money buys flexibility. And
00:29:02
maybe that just means, you know, that
00:29:04
ability at some point in life to say,
00:29:06
you know what, I'm gonna I'm gonna
00:29:07
change jobs for a lower paying job
00:29:09
because I love it more and I have enough
00:29:11
money to give me the flexibility to do
00:29:12
that.
00:29:13
>> But yeah, in a lot of these cases, it's
00:29:14
that flexibility to maybe retire a
00:29:17
little earlier than someone wanted to.
00:29:19
Take a chance on yourself. I mean,
00:29:20
that's such a cool one. Such a I mean,
00:29:22
like you said earlier that uh we all
00:29:24
look up to rock stars and and athletes
00:29:26
and maybe it's because they were able to
00:29:27
take a chance on themsel and pursue
00:29:29
their dreams. And what a cool story to
00:29:31
be able to say I had the financial
00:29:33
flexibility to take a chance on myself,
00:29:36
pursue my dreams, go into business and
00:29:37
and even survive a pandemic in the
00:29:39
meantime. It's such a cool story and uh
00:29:42
here you are pursuing these dreams but
00:29:44
with kids and and that's a question. So
00:29:47
going back to the whole whether it's the
00:29:49
owning your time, the coastfire itself,
00:29:51
the the three on four off work weeks,
00:29:54
how do kids fit into this picture? I
00:29:57
guess logistically how do they fit into
00:29:58
this picture? and but then also in terms
00:30:01
of instilling them with the right set of
00:30:03
their own kind of time, money, values as
00:30:06
they're watching you as role models. So
00:30:08
I guess first let's start with the
00:30:09
logistics of just pursuing these
00:30:11
pursuits with children in your life.
00:30:13
Yeah, I would say that my wife and I
00:30:16
stepping down to part-time work has been
00:30:20
incredible for both our relationship
00:30:23
together as well as our relationship
00:30:25
with our kids. Because the thing that
00:30:28
kids crave more than anything in their
00:30:31
life is time with their parents. Well, I
00:30:34
guess that's different when you get
00:30:36
teenage daughters cuz she doesn't want
00:30:37
to see them anymore. But for a big
00:30:39
period of time, they really crave being
00:30:42
around their mom and dad. So, we've been
00:30:45
able to give that gift to them over the
00:30:47
last three, well, 5 years for me now,
00:30:50
three years for my wife, and it's been
00:30:52
so great, man. I've always wanted to be
00:30:54
that present father that's there for the
00:30:56
games, that's there to pick them up at
00:30:58
the end of the day. I'm taking my son to
00:31:00
his cross country meet right after we're
00:31:02
done with this conversation. It's, you
00:31:04
know, 30 minutes away. It's at 3:00.
00:31:05
It's like I wouldn't have been able to
00:31:06
do that if I was grinding away at my
00:31:08
corporate job or traveling. And it just
00:31:10
gives me so much joy that I can see him
00:31:12
lean into a sport that he loves. So I
00:31:15
think for our relationship with our
00:31:16
kids, it has been fantastic. As far as
00:31:19
helping them see this path as something
00:31:23
to consider for the future, man, that's
00:31:25
been a lot of conversations between my
00:31:27
wife and I. We've had to question a lot
00:31:29
of the decisions that we've made over
00:31:31
the past 20, 30 years of our lives and
00:31:32
saying, "Is this the right path for our
00:31:34
kids?" But what I still do believe is
00:31:37
that instilling in our kids that if they
00:31:40
want something out of life, working hard
00:31:42
for it is worth it, we still do that. We
00:31:45
have our kids contribute around the
00:31:47
house here to support with what it means
00:31:49
to be a part of this family that's doing
00:31:52
chores. When they want to make some
00:31:53
extra money, they can work with dad and
00:31:55
their small business and I can pay them
00:31:57
for that. that allows me to contribute
00:31:59
to their Roth IRA because they have
00:32:01
earned income through my small business
00:32:03
as employees. This is two hours, two,
00:32:07
three, four hours a month. It's not a
00:32:09
lot, but you know what? If they've been
00:32:11
doing it for 3 to 5 years, that Roth IRA
00:32:13
starts to grow. Right now, my kids both
00:32:16
have over $8,000 in their Roth IAS. My
00:32:19
daughter's 11, my son is I'm sorry, my
00:32:21
daughter's 13, and my my son is 11. You
00:32:23
can only imagine where this would go
00:32:25
over time towards that goal of time
00:32:27
ownership. My net worth at age 28 was
00:32:32
$50,000
00:32:33
and my son at age 11 is over $10,000
00:32:38
now. So again, you can only imagine what
00:32:40
this type of early contribution towards
00:32:44
investment goals, savings goals, even
00:32:46
conversations around giving can do for
00:32:50
their long-term wealth and happiness.
00:32:52
That is awesome. And yes, I I've talked
00:32:54
before about the child as employee Roth
00:32:57
trick here on the podcast. It sounds
00:32:58
like you were going about it exactly the
00:33:00
right way. And and listeners, you you
00:33:03
might remember me saying that if your
00:33:05
child uh sweeps your warehouse floor for
00:33:07
an hour and you pay them $7,000 to max
00:33:10
out their Roth IRA, the IRS will not
00:33:13
appreciate that.
00:33:13
>> They'll come get them. Absolutely. Yeah.
00:33:15
These are $20 an hour. They're co
00:33:18
podcast co-hosts, things like that. My
00:33:21
daughter will edit my social media
00:33:23
videos, things like that. And it's not a
00:33:25
sweat shop, everybody. It's like a
00:33:27
couple what is it, four hours a month,
00:33:29
you know, like when when they want to.
00:33:30
And as soon as they're like, "Hey, dad,
00:33:32
I don't want to work with you anymore."
00:33:33
Like my daughter, she's like, "I don't
00:33:34
want to be podcast host anymore, Dad,
00:33:35
cuz I'm embarrassed." It's not like,
00:33:37
"No, you got to do it." It's like, "No,
00:33:38
she's she's gone on and doing her own
00:33:40
thing." She's refing soccer now, soccer
00:33:41
games. So awesome.
00:33:43
>> It's just, you know, do it when we can.
00:33:45
>> Uncle Sam approves, Andy. Uncle Sam
00:33:47
approves. Um, well, maybe the one one of
00:33:49
the last things I wanted to ask you is I
00:33:51
I kind of even alluded to it before that
00:33:53
some of the most I'm not sure what the
00:33:54
word is, distressing or heartbreaking or
00:33:56
concerning stories I hear involve
00:33:58
retirees who, for lack of a better term,
00:34:01
essentially like waste away after their
00:34:03
working years that just become some sort
00:34:05
of shell of the person they used to be.
00:34:07
And I know you devote some time in this
00:34:09
whole topic of owning your time. I think
00:34:11
you call it use your four days wisely,
00:34:14
you know, referring to those four days
00:34:15
off. I mean, what can people do to
00:34:18
really ensure that they not only don't
00:34:20
waste away, but really that they thrive
00:34:22
in their time off, whether it's in
00:34:24
Coastfire or in full retirement? What
00:34:26
can people do better?
00:34:27
>> I think the issue that I've heard from
00:34:30
older retirees or even talking with
00:34:33
doctors who have spoken to patients on
00:34:35
their deathbed is that they just leaned
00:34:37
into that one identity of hard worker
00:34:42
too much. And so when that hard work
00:34:45
went away, they had no identity anymore.
00:34:48
>> So in this use your 4 days wisely
00:34:52
mantra, this is our opportunity to
00:34:55
diversify our identity outside of
00:34:57
worker. We can be dad, we can be mom, we
00:35:01
can be brother, we can be sister, we can
00:35:03
be runner. There's all these different
00:35:05
hats that we can wear that can give us
00:35:07
pride outside of, hey, I'm a hardworking
00:35:11
guy and I've been there for a long time
00:35:13
because when that identity goes away,
00:35:16
you will have an identity crisis. You
00:35:19
will say, who am I? What's my purpose?
00:35:22
So, I think it's incumbent on us to
00:35:23
diversify our identities as much as
00:35:25
possible, as early as possible. Just
00:35:28
like investing, this is the same thing.
00:35:31
If we invest in one single stock for a
00:35:33
really long time and that single stock
00:35:36
tanks, what are we going to be? We're
00:35:38
going to be depressed, right? So, I
00:35:40
would say that it has a very good
00:35:42
similarity to investing. I think we
00:35:45
should do that as early as possible. And
00:35:46
if we're looking for areas to invest in,
00:35:49
our health is a great one because the
00:35:51
more we lean into our health, the more
00:35:53
we can be better spouses. The more we're
00:35:56
better spouses, the more our kids will
00:35:59
see that. and learn the true value of
00:36:02
family happiness. So, it's a it's got a
00:36:06
cascading effect. We take care of
00:36:07
ourselves, we can be better spouses. We
00:36:09
take care of our relationship with our
00:36:11
spouse, we can be better parents. And
00:36:13
then from there, we're better friends.
00:36:15
We're better children to our own aging
00:36:17
parents. And life goes on from there.
00:36:19
So, I think there's so many things to
00:36:20
explore. I'm in this area of my life
00:36:23
where I'm jumping into it and exploring
00:36:25
even more. I've definitely diversified
00:36:27
my identities, but there's a lot more
00:36:29
that I can do and I'm excited about it.
00:36:31
>> So, it sounds like, you know, there's
00:36:32
some compound returns, you could say,
00:36:33
from diversifying your identity.
00:36:36
Absolutely.
00:36:37
>> We've kind of buried the lead here. In
00:36:38
case listeners weren't aware, we just
00:36:41
went through some of the really cool
00:36:42
chapters of this new book project you're
00:36:45
working on. So, maybe here in the last
00:36:47
couple minutes, I mean, tell us about
00:36:48
this book. It might not come out like
00:36:50
this this episode's coming out in in
00:36:52
November. The book's probably not out
00:36:54
yet, but I do believe people can
00:36:56
pre-order it and uh just tell us more
00:36:58
about about the book itself and where
00:37:00
people can find it.
00:37:01
>> Yeah, it's called Own Your Time. It is
00:37:03
the 10 financial steps to put family
00:37:06
first and escape the corporate grind.
00:37:07
So, this is a family conversation. It's
00:37:09
a book for people who feel maybe a
00:37:11
little trapped in their work situation
00:37:13
and they're looking for those steps to
00:37:15
make their way out from I guess an area
00:37:18
of feeling trapped and more to an area
00:37:21
of feeling some peace and harmony in
00:37:23
your life. And the there are as Jesse
00:37:25
knows some financial steps that can help
00:37:27
you to get there so you can have that
00:37:29
choice so you can have that autonomy in
00:37:31
your life and eventually have that time
00:37:33
freedom where you can choose to if you
00:37:35
want work three days and enjoy four. So
00:37:38
yeah, it's called Own Your Time. You can
00:37:39
get it on any major website right now.
00:37:42
Amazon, Barnes & Noble, Porch Light
00:37:44
Books. Again, Own Your Time by Andy
00:37:46
Hill. Yes, it's on pre-order right now
00:37:47
and it comes out in January. I have a
00:37:49
goal of hitting 500 pre-orders by
00:37:52
January 21st. So if there's anybody out
00:37:53
there looking to support that goal, I'd
00:37:55
appreciate it.
00:37:56
>> Amazing. Amazing. Looking forward to
00:37:58
reading it myself. Andy Andy Hill,
00:38:00
author of Own Your Time: The Man Behind
00:38:03
Marriage, Kids, and Money. Thanks for
00:38:05
stopping by Personal Finance for
00:38:06
Long-Term Investors. Thank you, Jesse.
00:38:08
>> Thanks for tuning in to this episode of
00:38:10
Personal Finance for Long-Term
00:38:12
Investors. If you have a question for
00:38:14
Jesse to answer on a future episode,
00:38:16
send him an email over at his blog, The
00:38:18
Bestinest. His email address is
00:38:20
00:38:23
Again, that's jessevestinterest.blog.
00:38:26
Did you enjoy the show? Subscribe, rate,
00:38:29
and review the podcast wherever you
00:38:30
listen. This helps others find the show
00:38:33
and invest in knowledge themselves, and
00:38:35
we really appreciate it. We'll catch you
00:38:37
on the next episode of Personal Finance
00:38:39
for Long-Term Investors. Personal
00:38:42
Finance for Long-Term Investors is a
00:38:44
personal podcast meant for education and
00:38:46
entertainment. It should not be taken as
00:38:48
financial advice and it's not
00:38:50
prescriptive of your financial
00:38:51
situation.
