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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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Kramer hello welcome to episode 47 of
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the best interest podcast my name is
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Jesse Kramer today we're talking about
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something pretty interesting it's called
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a meritocracy we're going to Define what
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a meritocracy is we're going to see if
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the American system of socioeconomics
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actually runs on a meritocracy I'll give
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you some of my opinions on it and then
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later in the episode we're bringing in
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an outside expert he's actually one of
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the best known personal finance bloggers
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in the world his name is Sam dogen you
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might have heard of him as the financial
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Samurai so later in the episode Sam and
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I are going to be talking about
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meritocracy and and he's going to talk
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about it from his point of view and and
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refer to a recent article of his that
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went viral but first let's just get into
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some of the basics what is a meritocracy
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well it's a government or a society
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where the holding of power or the
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holding of goods assets positions of
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leadership tends to be held by people
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where it's selected on the basis of a
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person's ability so in simple terms it
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means that the people who are better get
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more stuff more money more influence
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more power and on its face I think we
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all want or we all see some sort of
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sense of fairness from meritocratic
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policies in our lives if we do things
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better as individuals we want to be
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rewarded or compensated we certainly
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don't want to be punished for doing
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things better we don't want to be
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ignored for doing things better and it
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feels somewhat unfair if our neighbor is
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compensated better than us despite being
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quote unquote worse than us but of
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course that begs a very important
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important and hard to answer question
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what does better mean does it mean
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smarter is it stronger taller more
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athletic harder working nicer more
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confident it's hard to say better in one
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Arena might be worthless in another you
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know the Houston Rockets the NBA team
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they might not cut it at Nasa but the
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team of Engineers at Nasa they wouldn't
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cut it in the NBA they're all amazing at
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what they do their definitions of better
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are drastically different and I submit
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that our society is it's grotesquely
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meritocratic in some ways and it's
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obscenely unmar gratic in others so I
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want to explore those two ideas and give
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you some examples of why I think that
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and then we're going to bring in
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financial Samurai Sam dogen later to
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give us some of his opinions but for
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starters a meritocracy Cuts both ways
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the rich and Powerful they have their
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wealth because of their Merit and the
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poor the meek they have their poverty
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because of their lack of Merit right
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well I think that sounds a little bit
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callous so here are some stats 20% of us
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adults have a net worth less than
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$5,000 and 25% of American households
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earn less than $30,000 per year you're
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going to have to forgive me here
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listeners I live in New York Rochester
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United States I have an American bias
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America is what I know our culture is
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what I know our sta are what I know so
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again 20% of us adults have a net worth
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less than $5,000 25% of households earn
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less than $30,000 per year but meanwhile
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we have
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billionaires most billionaires in my
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opinion they have taken significant
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risks career risks personal risks risks
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with their own capital and they have
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provided huge benefits to Society on
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mass but someone with a billion dollars
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has 200 100,000 times more wealth than
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20% of us adults so I've got this
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philosophical question sometimes I'm
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full of philosophical questions you'll
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have to forgive me the question is can
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one person have 200,000 times more Merit
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than another I certainly think some
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people have more Merit than others no
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doubt about it I don't want to live in a
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society where my individual Merit
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doesn't matter at all but 200,000 times
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that is a pretty big differ differential
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in Merit in other words the differential
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between billionaires and the
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impoverished it feels too meritocratic
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at least to me we've identified someone
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with a great idea a great business the
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willingness to take a big risk and we've
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rewarded them too much for it okay we'll
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come back to that idea because before we
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go on I want to talk about the
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proverbial poor kid from the tough
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neighborhood so picture a 5-year-old boy
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he's a bit malnourished because there
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isn't always food on the table he's
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unfamiliar with the alphabet with
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numbers colors all the basic stuff that
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some kids learn before entering
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kindergarten because maybe his parents
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work two jobs maybe they're addicted to
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drugs maybe they're trying hard maybe
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they're not trying hard enough all that
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matters in this particular scenario is
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that the boy the 5-year-old has not
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received the attention that he should
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have and because of that he's behind his
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peers he's behind the 5-year-old from
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the suburbs whose parents are very
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attentive to him so I hope you agree
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with me that the 5-year-old boy that I
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brought up first from the tough
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neighborhood he's not at fault for his
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circumstances for him it's just bad luck
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and all throughout school that pattern
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continues a substandard or broken home
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life means that our boy he falls further
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and further behind the pack and he's
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eight years old 12 15 years old he's
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failing at school and whether he knows
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it or not he's failing at becoming a
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successful adult so here's my
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hypothetical question that I've pondered
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and and I would ask you to ponder as
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well at 5 years old let's go back then
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we we've established pretty hard luck on
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the boy and I for one don't blame the
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5-year-old for his shortcomings I hope
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you agree with me there but at eight
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years old do you blame him for
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shortcomings or is it bad luck how about
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at 12 years old or at 15 years old at
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what age do you start to blame this boy
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or young man or adult man for his own
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bad circumstances that he finds himself
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in so my line of questioning here points
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out an important logical
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inconsistency if 5-year-olds can't be
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blamed for their
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circumstances but at some age 20 22 18
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adults can be blamed for their bad
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circumstances then at what age did the
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switch happen was it at age eight was it
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at age 12 age 15 because no matter what
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age you choose you have to reconcile the
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fact that you're taking taking a human
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being who you agree was a victim of bad
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luck their entire life but at a certain
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age you decide that they're now
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accountable for their own
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circumstances you say he's never had a
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chance it's just bad luck oh but at this
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age you've had all your chances you make
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your own luck and it's your fault you're
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in the position that you're in it's a
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little bit disjointed it's logically
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inconsistent and it shows some sort of
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fault in the way that a meritocracy
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Rewards people it ignores that bad luck
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all throughout the young boy's life
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personally I feel like my parents did a
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good job teaching me the ways of adult
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accountability throughout my childhood
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and and maybe your parents did the same
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so yes we should expect adolescence to
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show a growing personal maturity as they
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age but we have to remember that our
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poor 5-year-old boy he has no adult
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mentors his parents have failed him
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where is his growing personal maturity
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going to come from who's his role model
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this all comes back to the idea that in
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a meritocracy those who fail fail
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because they lack Merit that's why they
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fail but I just applied some simple
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logic to show how easily someone can
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slip through the cracks of our society
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and become by our standards a failure
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not because of their lack of Merit but
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because of their lack of luck because of
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their lack of good
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circumstances okay so let's go back to
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the billionaires for a minute we see
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Jeff Bezos Elon Musk opro Winfrey and a
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common formula appears before us a
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normal person with a cool idea plus some
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wild dedication equals Immortal success
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well I'm a normal person you probably
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are too we've all had cool ideas so if I
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apply wild dedication then I should
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expect to see Immortal success but the
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problem is that Bezos musk Oprah they
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are all survivors their ideas went
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through the creative destruction of the
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economy of supply and demand and those
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ideas have come out on top we don't see
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the victims of that system many of whom
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also had awesome ideas and extraordinary
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dedication what differentiates the
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survivors from the victims some people
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will claim there's an intangible virtue
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involved that it's some special sauce
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and X Factor maybe it's social IQ or
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Charisma the willingness to work in
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extra hour send that extra email make
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just one more cold call but my answer
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isn't nearly as popular yet I think my
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answer is much more true the
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differentiator is luck and if a
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meritocracy rewards the lucky for their
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luck and punishes The Unlucky for their
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lack of luck then I think a meritocracy
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kind of stinks the American ethos is
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anti-luck we make our own luck right we
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pick ourselves up by our bootstraps
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We're a nation of rugged individuals
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Jeff Bezos he was self-made and I'm
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playing devil's advocate here guys
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because I do think it's a good idea to
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try to make your own luck to be
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self-sufficient to work hard to make
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Society better for yourself and for
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others that's a really good thing but I
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want to offer the simplest personal
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anecdote as a means of countering the
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idea of a self-made man for as long as I
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remember I've excelled and this is me
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Jesse talking very personally I've
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excelled at pattern recog and memory
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I've always been a fast learner I've
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always been a good test taker and this
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goes back to Age 3 four five always and
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and these happen to be valuable skills
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in society I was good at school when I
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was an engineer I was a good Cog in the
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corporate machine know and wealth
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management I'm good at solving client
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problems I'm good at working quickly I
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can back up my answers with objective
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analysis I'm interesting and and
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sometimes quirky at parties because I
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know the answers to lots of random
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things and I could be quick and funny
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about it now that skill wasn't self-made
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you can't look at a smart three-year-old
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or four-year-old or 5-year-old which I
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was and see anything other than Good
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Fortune you know there was a combination
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of factors at play my parents genes a
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healthy home the right mental stimuli
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and then some sort of element of pure
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Randomness you know why does one kid
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like math which I did while other kids
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like eating crayons I didn't earn that
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brain and yet our meritocracy
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specifically rewards me for it of course
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my life isn't pure luck right I'd like
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to think that I work hard I'm making a
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choice to get behind this microphone and
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produce this podcast I'm making a choice
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to write the best interest every week
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but ignoring luck in my life it would be
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an obvious oversight and I think it
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would be a
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mistruth we all played that same genetic
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and environmental Lottery you played it
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too so through no actions of your own
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some of us have won that Lottery more
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than others that's just luck those who
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refuse to acknowledge that Lottery they
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have blinders on and a meritocracy at
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least in its purest form is blind to
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that idea I'm not purely self-made I'm
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not a rugged individual neither are you
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and neither is any billionaire so we'd
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like to think that Destiny should have
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nothing to do with where you were born
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how educated your parents are what
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elementary school you went to
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we'd like to think that you are in
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control of your destiny that idea would
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make social Mobility easily attainable
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there wouldn't be a concrete ruling
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class there would be a very fluid middle
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class mostly made up of working people
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Educational Systems they'd have their
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private schools but the elite colleges
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wouldn't dominate the higher education
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landscape and yet that's not how our
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system is set up Daniel maritz a Yale
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law professor an author of The
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meritocracy trap he offers up many
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Illuminating statistics in his book for
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example families in the top 20% of
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income distribution produce three and a
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half times more ivy league graduates
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than families in the bottom 40% of
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income distribution in light of that
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stat how can we claim that intrinsic
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skill will rise to the top do the
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wealthy have intrinsically different DNA
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than the rest of us of course not we all
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have the same human DNA marovitz has a
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simple answer to that question the
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children of rich people simply do better
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on the merits and what he means there is
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that wealthy parents they pay for things
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like private schooling for private
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lessons for private SAT test prep City
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Schools their goal often is just to get
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50% of their kids to graduate private
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high schools on the other hand they want
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to place all of their graduates at top
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25 universities
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it's such a big difference in fact the
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two leading indicators for a child's
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long-term success has nothing to do with
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their intelligence their social IQ their
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athletic ability their willingness to
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work hard or any other personal trait
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typically associated with Merit instead
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the two leading indicators for a child's
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long-term success are their zip code and
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their parents income in other words poor
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kids from or neighborhoods even if they
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rank highly in individual Merit are
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unlikely to do as well as their
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wealthier peers now that is not a
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meritocracy that's not the society we
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hope for it's not that the rich are
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cheating although in some cases like
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that college cheating scandal at USC a
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few years ago they are cheating instead
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it's that the system favors the rich
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even when everybody plays by the rules
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in some ways you know wealthy people
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were created by the system and therefore
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no know how the system works it's not
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some malevolent Puppeteer creating the
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system instead it's just people going
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about their daily lives and Society just
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tends to skew in certain directions if
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you're a doctor your spouse is a lawyer
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you've learned that working hard
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studying hard building a practice long
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hours being smart doing well on tests
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all these things have led to your good
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life and you're more likely to push your
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children in that direction whereas if a
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child's parents have none of that
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background if they have none of that
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knowledge if a child's parents instead
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are more concerned about what's on TV or
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their drug addiction or simply getting
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enough money to put food on the table
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that child is not going to learn
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anything about how to succeed in this
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Society they're not going to learn about
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how to become a doctor they're not going
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to have that same emphasis on doing well
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on tests the status quo sees students
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whose parents earn $200,000 or more
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score about 400 points higher on average
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on sats than students from families
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earning less than $20,000 per year rich
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kids do better on tests than poor kids
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it has nothing to do with their natural
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genetic intelligence instead it's that
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wealthier kids tend to have a better
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environment for learning growing up and
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by the time they're 18 taking that as a
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te test it really starts to show so do
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we want a system where a bright kid from
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a tough background still gets a chance I
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say yes I think most of you would
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probably say yes but as of now that's
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not really the way our system is set up
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so I've just discussed some ways in
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which our society tends to ignore people
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who happen to have Merit but are also
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from a tougher background how our
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supposed meritocracy tends to leave them
00:16:53
behind but many of you might have heard
00:16:55
of situations especially over the past
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few years years where different sort of
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bastardization of meritocracy is going
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on situations where those who do have
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Merit and those who don't have Merit are
00:17:09
actually treated exactly the same where
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the playing field is leveled in such a
00:17:14
way that those who are succeeding aren't
00:17:17
given commensurate reward now it can be
00:17:20
something as simple as a youth sports
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League where there are no winners no
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losers and everybody gets a trophy now I
00:17:28
understand the idea of not wanting to
00:17:31
hurt children's feelings totally get
00:17:33
that I understand that there's a certain
00:17:35
age at which we want to give kids a
00:17:38
lesson in quote unquote real life right
00:17:40
and we want to start to show them that
00:17:43
the real world has meritocratic
00:17:46
principles and the real world will
00:17:48
reward you for things going well and you
00:17:50
won't get a reward if things don't go
00:17:52
well and so that's why we're bringing on
00:17:55
Sam dogen here into the podcast to talk
00:17:57
to us a little a little bit about some
00:18:00
situations that he's run into in his
00:18:02
experience dealing with meritocracy and
00:18:05
uh Sam is going to shed his opinions
00:18:07
which are noticeably different than mine
00:18:09
but I think it's good to have different
00:18:10
opinions and to hear all sides and to
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let some of you listeners decide what
00:18:15
you
00:18:15
[Music]
00:18:23
think Sam has quite the incredible
00:18:26
resume so let me hit some highlights
00:18:27
here the Financial Samurai it's easily
00:18:29
one of the most popular Finance blogs in
00:18:31
the world attracting over 1 million
00:18:33
monthly readers Sam retired from the
00:18:36
corporate world in 2013 at age 36 his
00:18:39
story and his writing was a major
00:18:40
Kickstart to the modern fire or
00:18:42
financial Independence Movement Sam's a
00:18:45
massive proponent of passive income
00:18:47
including residential real estate and
00:18:48
dividend paying stocks and last year I
00:18:51
believe it was last summer Sam published
00:18:53
a best-selling personal finance book
00:18:54
entitled bu this not that and I hope we
00:18:57
can get into the details of that book in
00:18:59
a few minutes Sam thanks for joining the
00:19:01
best interest podcast hey thanks for
00:19:04
having me yeah so let's get into some
00:19:06
questions Sam you know we we kind of
00:19:07
talked about this over email before
00:19:09
hopping on the recording here I want to
00:19:11
focus on one of your recent articles
00:19:13
called how to survive the war on Merit
00:19:16
when hard work isn't enough mhm you
00:19:19
mentioned one thing in that article that
00:19:21
one of your retirement passions you're a
00:19:23
High School tennis coach so I was
00:19:25
wondering how does meritocracy play a
00:19:27
role on your team well meritocracy is
00:19:31
super important in sports because
00:19:33
everybody has different talents and work
00:19:35
ethics and so if we want to win as a
00:19:38
coach we need to position our lineup and
00:19:41
our ladder as best possible to win you
00:19:44
know you can't really win based on your
00:19:47
good looks or your big smile you can
00:19:50
only win if you beat your opponent based
00:19:52
on your skills and a lot of it has to do
00:19:54
with work ethic as well and so
00:19:57
meritocracy is really interesting
00:19:59
because I think all of us have grown up
00:20:00
thinking oh if we work hard we're going
00:20:03
to get commensally rewarded but it seems
00:20:05
like there's been a change in the way
00:20:08
we're rewarded nowadays as we are trying
00:20:09
to strive for inclusivity equality for
00:20:13
all and so I believe in equality for all
00:20:17
equal opportunity but it's just
00:20:18
impossible to have equal outcomes we can
00:20:21
provide more opportunities for you know
00:20:24
kids to compete and try to get ahead but
00:20:28
I think it's a Fool's game to expect
00:20:30
everybody to end up the same Gosha I I
00:20:33
totally follow what you're saying there
00:20:35
and and one thing I was talking about
00:20:37
kind of before we hopped on the
00:20:39
recording when it was just me
00:20:40
monologuing and one thing I'm hoping to
00:20:42
get into with you is that in some cases
00:20:44
it seems like the way a meritocracy is
00:20:47
changing is that it's kind of pushing
00:20:48
everyone towards the Middle where it's
00:20:50
kind of like you know the most excellent
00:20:52
of us are are pushed to the middle and
00:20:54
then you mentioned an article or a story
00:20:56
in your article about Thomas Jefferson
00:20:58
in high school that we can get into but
00:20:59
in general I mean do you think should
00:21:01
the rest of society be formatted in the
00:21:04
same meritocratic way that say your
00:21:06
tennis team is where it's just very
00:21:08
clear that best tennis player is number
00:21:10
one player on your team and the worst
00:21:12
tennis player might get cut I mean what
00:21:14
ways do you think the rest of society
00:21:16
should kind of Follow that model you
00:21:18
know I think it's really tricky right
00:21:20
now because nobody wants to hurt
00:21:21
anybody's feelings but the reality is
00:21:24
about high school level you kind of
00:21:26
realize there are some people more
00:21:28
talented than you and you've got to
00:21:30
accept that fact and if you are less
00:21:32
talented or you have less intelligence
00:21:34
or physical attributes the only way to
00:21:36
kind of even out the playing field is to
00:21:38
try harder but in my article I was
00:21:41
talking about you know trying harder
00:21:43
might not get you where you want to go
00:21:45
so you have to actually have to be you
00:21:47
know really tactical in terms of
00:21:49
building relationships with The
00:21:50
Gatekeepers the people who decide
00:21:53
whether you're going to get in or not
00:21:54
you're going to get paid or promoted or
00:21:56
not going to share your work or not
00:21:58
accept your book idea not all these
00:22:00
things these are The Gatekeepers that
00:22:01
have this advantage and the key is to
00:22:03
recognize who those Gatekeepers are
00:22:06
understand what their interests are try
00:22:09
to assimilate with them even if you
00:22:11
don't believe in everything they do if
00:22:14
you're not financially independent yet
00:22:16
and you want to be financially
00:22:17
independent you've got to learn how to
00:22:19
interact with Society in a way that'll
00:22:21
put you in a favorable light because at
00:22:23
the end of the day people are going to
00:22:25
promote and pay and support people who
00:22:27
they like more than who they don't and
00:22:30
who they don't know so you're kind of
00:22:32
saying in many cases it's not about what
00:22:34
you know which what meritocracy would be
00:22:37
it's more about who you know you know
00:22:40
when I when I first heard about that
00:22:41
phrase in my 20s you know I rolled my
00:22:44
eyes like come on that's just such BS
00:22:47
you know networking networking it's such
00:22:48
a pain right who wants to do off his
00:22:50
politics and all that but now that I'm
00:22:53
45 years old I clearly see the benefits
00:22:56
of who you know and your Network so as a
00:22:59
45-year-old guy all my friends have over
00:23:02
20 years experience now not all but like
00:23:03
the vast majority right because you know
00:23:05
we graduated high school 30 something
00:23:07
years ago 35 years ago and you know we
00:23:09
just have a lot of experience not 35
00:23:12
years ago but 25 years ago and so the
00:23:15
idea is that if you are able if I was
00:23:18
able to stay in touch and keep
00:23:19
friendships with all my childhood
00:23:22
friends man I'd have a huge Network I
00:23:25
don't think I'd ever starve again they
00:23:27
would say hey Sam you know let me let me
00:23:29
hire your son to join my company or hey
00:23:32
let me make you an introduction to join
00:23:34
this club or let me let me tell people
00:23:37
about your book by this not that you
00:23:38
know it's just like my network would be
00:23:40
massive but I think all of all of us we
00:23:42
fail to maintain our network over time
00:23:44
because we get busy we're selfish you
00:23:46
know life goes on and so yeah the
00:23:49
network is so important I was just going
00:23:50
to say that I mean for for some of us
00:23:52
and myself included it sounds like you
00:23:54
Sam like we get busy right we don't
00:23:56
necessarily have the time to maintain
00:23:57
Ain the hundreds if not thousands of
00:24:00
relationships that we started at one
00:24:02
point in our life so what kind of
00:24:04
filters do you use I'm I'm going to skip
00:24:06
ahead to you know one of the questions I
00:24:08
kind of sent you in an email where you
00:24:10
mentioned seven tips to survive what you
00:24:12
call the war on Merit and one of them
00:24:14
you already got into about knowing who
00:24:16
The Gatekeepers are but I mean are there
00:24:18
other tips that you have about which
00:24:21
relationships which friendships you
00:24:23
should maintain over time because it's
00:24:25
hard to maintain them all so so where
00:24:27
should we focus our energy and our
00:24:29
effort yeah ideally it' be great to
00:24:31
maintain relationships with only the
00:24:33
people we like and and and want to hang
00:24:35
out with and get along with but the
00:24:37
reality is you probably need to be
00:24:38
strategic in your relationship building
00:24:41
again who are the people who control
00:24:44
your
00:24:46
destiny understand the backgrounds of
00:24:48
your Gatekeepers because the thing is
00:24:51
let's say you're
00:24:53
Asian-American and you want to join an
00:24:55
organization that has no Asian-American
00:24:57
people on the board or in leadership
00:24:59
roles you're probably going to be at at
00:25:02
a disadvantage to your peers who have a
00:25:04
better reflection of management and
00:25:06
themselves in the workforce so one is
00:25:09
really you have to identify like who you
00:25:11
want to be a part of and who are the
00:25:13
leaders and then you've got to
00:25:15
assimilate with The Gatekeepers you got
00:25:17
to understand who they are and then you
00:25:19
should have a concurred backup plan
00:25:21
where it's like even if you're
00:25:22
assimilating great people like you don't
00:25:25
believe everything people say you know
00:25:28
when they're talking to you face to face
00:25:29
because what people say in front of you
00:25:31
and what people say behind closed doors
00:25:33
can be very different so you have to
00:25:35
have that backup plan where you're you
00:25:37
know working on a side hustle you have
00:25:38
your exactor you're building a business
00:25:40
or you know you're networking with your
00:25:42
competitors in a different fi at a
00:25:44
different company in your field I mean
00:25:46
very important but for me I think the
00:25:49
best way to overcome this meritocracy
00:25:52
decline reward system is by being so
00:25:55
rich it doesn't really matter you know
00:25:58
The Gatekeepers don't matter anymore and
00:26:00
so that's the funny thing right you're
00:26:02
so rich that it doesn't really matter if
00:26:04
you don't have that job doesn't really
00:26:06
matter if some school wants to suppress
00:26:10
your kids chances of getting into a
00:26:12
school whatever it is because you have
00:26:14
the business to hire them into your
00:26:16
business and you have the money to
00:26:18
always take care of them so they can do
00:26:19
whatever they want I'm just trying to
00:26:21
think right now from The Listener side
00:26:23
of things I mean that's a great solution
00:26:26
right if it's
00:26:28
right it's not easy and and my my one
00:26:30
thought is you know so I'm an engineer
00:26:32
by training so I always push things to
00:26:34
the minimum and the maximum to
00:26:36
understand if if they break at that
00:26:37
point and then try to understand why
00:26:38
right so if I push that idea to the
00:26:40
maximum I ask myself can everyone out
00:26:43
there achieve a status where they have
00:26:46
so much money that it doesn't matter
00:26:49
what relationships they maintain in life
00:26:51
I'm not sure if that's possible I have
00:26:53
my doubts but I'm curious I mean you're
00:26:55
you've been writing to thousands
00:26:57
millions of people for for many years I
00:26:59
mean do you find that do your readers
00:27:01
kind of start to internalize your
00:27:03
messages to them and and start to kind
00:27:05
of mimic the path that you've taken to
00:27:07
that point of kind of Fu money for lack
00:27:09
of a better term sure I think you've got
00:27:13
to use hardship as motivation to change
00:27:17
and I pity the person who has everything
00:27:19
given to them you know they're born into
00:27:20
a super wealthy
00:27:22
family I don't know they're just the
00:27:24
right type of person that everybody
00:27:26
loves CU they're so good-looking they
00:27:27
don't work on their personality or their
00:27:29
communication skills I pity them because
00:27:32
it robs them of the opportunity to work
00:27:34
hard and feel tremendous
00:27:37
self-satisfaction from their hard work I
00:27:39
think that's all anybody ever wants to
00:27:41
see a correlation with reward and hard
00:27:44
work I don't know anybody who wants a
00:27:46
handout and I don't know anybody who
00:27:48
feels good getting a handout I think
00:27:50
deep down inside you just feel bad and
00:27:53
you you just you want to prove yourself
00:27:55
that's the way we are as humans so I
00:27:58
think those people reading Financial
00:27:59
Samurai are highly motivated highly
00:28:02
intelligent not easily angered by things
00:28:06
you know they can see other points of
00:28:07
view and and they accept reality there's
00:28:11
a great saying it's easier to wear
00:28:14
slippers than carpet the
00:28:16
world you know so it's like take care of
00:28:19
your own self do what you can for
00:28:22
yourself and your family and then work
00:28:25
within the system to try to get ahead
00:28:27
and so so I try to write articles on
00:28:28
financial Samurai that kind of shine
00:28:30
light on maybe touchy subjects but
00:28:32
that'll hopefully help people get ahead
00:28:35
no matter what right okay one thing I
00:28:38
like that you just touched on there Sam
00:28:40
that maybe I've been guilty of before is
00:28:42
so one thing you said was we all have
00:28:44
this innate feeling that we want to see
00:28:47
a correlation between the effort we put
00:28:49
in and the rewards that we get back out
00:28:51
I mean that's meritocracy 101 right
00:28:52
there right the harder we work the more
00:28:54
reward we want and and sometimes you and
00:28:56
I both know that's not the case in this
00:28:59
world that's just not the way that the
00:29:00
system works uh but one thing that I
00:29:03
think I've done in my writing is I've
00:29:05
just said huh this is kind of backwards
00:29:08
I don't really like it but one thing
00:29:10
that you've done you've probably taken a
00:29:11
step further in a much better way which
00:29:13
is to say yeah that's just the way
00:29:15
things are but here's how you make your
00:29:17
own slippers right here here's what you
00:29:20
can do to actually apply some of this to
00:29:22
your own life so I was wondering maybe
00:29:24
we can segue here Sam and and I want to
00:29:26
ask you just a couple questions about
00:29:27
about your book buy this not that so I
00:29:32
know that today we haven't been talking
00:29:34
about the actual nitty-gritty personal
00:29:36
finance investing topics but in your
00:29:39
book you do talk about that quite a bit
00:29:41
more but just in a nutshell if you had
00:29:43
to give you know a one or two minute
00:29:44
synopsis of why you wrote your book who
00:29:47
it's for who that ideal reader is or or
00:29:49
what someone listening to this should
00:29:50
think if they're going to buy that book
00:29:52
what would you tell them well buy This
00:29:54
Not That how to spend your way to wealth
00:29:56
and freedom is for anybody who wants to
00:29:57
do just that and for anybody who wants
00:30:00
to make more optimal decisions on some
00:30:04
of life's biggest dilemas and the reason
00:30:07
why I wrote the book was one I was given
00:30:09
an opportunity to write this book by
00:30:10
portfolio Penguin randomhouse at the
00:30:12
beginning of the pandemic and I figured
00:30:14
you know what if I'm going to get locked
00:30:16
down for who knows how long I'm going to
00:30:18
just write a book and make lemonade out
00:30:20
of a difficult situation and that's
00:30:22
always been my modus appari for as long
00:30:25
as I can live spraying my ankle pH thank
00:30:28
God I didn't break my ankle let's go
00:30:30
play some more tennis you know that's
00:30:31
just the way I I am the other thing is
00:30:34
when I started Financial Samurai in 2009
00:30:37
there weren't many or any I didn't I
00:30:39
didn't know of anybody with a finance
00:30:40
background writing about personal
00:30:42
finance and so when I was offered this
00:30:45
book deal in 2020 I also didn't see
00:30:49
people with traditional Finance
00:30:51
backgrounds writing personal finance
00:30:53
books instead most of them were
00:30:56
marketers and so it's really interesting
00:30:58
to delineate between an online marketer
00:31:01
writing about personal finance and a
00:31:03
person with a finance background writing
00:31:04
about personal finance and I know I know
00:31:07
all about online marketing because
00:31:10
that's just you can make a lot of money
00:31:12
online if you want to right and so I
00:31:13
wanted to approach it in a fundamental
00:31:16
Financial way that was also really
00:31:18
interesting with storytelling and that
00:31:19
would also touch upon really big
00:31:22
decisions in life such as when should
00:31:24
you have kids should you send your kids
00:31:26
to private school or public school
00:31:28
should you invest in real estate or
00:31:29
stocks where should you live to boost
00:31:32
your career all these things that I've
00:31:35
encountered and I think the large
00:31:37
majority of people will eventually have
00:31:39
to decide an encounter as well and I
00:31:41
thought that was very missing in in the
00:31:43
book Marketplace and so that's why I
00:31:45
wanted to write it awesome I was just
00:31:47
going to say that the topics that you
00:31:48
tackle are hyper applicable right it's
00:31:52
these questions that a lot of us and and
00:31:53
whether it's especially maybe folks in
00:31:55
my generation you know I'm I'm sitting
00:31:57
here at 32 but a lot of these questions
00:31:59
are whether it's coming out of college
00:32:01
starting my career building my career
00:32:03
buying that first home starting a family
00:32:06
financial related questions yeah it's
00:32:08
like what's it's not just about let's
00:32:10
make money for money's sake I wanted to
00:32:12
make I write a book that was very
00:32:15
applicable to why you want to build
00:32:18
wealth and how you can spend your money
00:32:21
towards better decisions and better life
00:32:23
and more Financial Freedom awesome
00:32:25
awesome so Sam I'm throw links down in
00:32:27
the show notes to both the article from
00:32:29
Financial Samurai about meritocracy and
00:32:31
also to what should I send people to
00:32:33
Amazon to buy a copy of buy this not
00:32:35
that sounds good I'll send you the link
00:32:38
perfect sounds good Sam and one last
00:32:40
question what is your deadliest weapon
00:32:42
in your tennis
00:32:44
game My Mind oo I got to a 5.0 level in
00:32:50
USDA tennis which is a top 1% right it's
00:32:52
where ex college players play everybody
00:32:55
all my close friends would make fun of
00:32:56
me because I know I don't hit with a lot
00:32:57
of power I'm not particularly you know
00:33:00
I'm strong nothing right so I always
00:33:02
joke yeah you know maybe I have 4.0
00:33:04
skills but I got a 6.0 mind and so if
00:33:07
you play me you're going to go through a
00:33:09
mind Bender you're going to get
00:33:11
frustrated you're going to self out and
00:33:13
I'm GNA make you beat yourself because
00:33:15
I'm not going to beat myself I'm GNA
00:33:17
make you beat yourself a and I'm gonna
00:33:20
keep on going and I'm going to run down
00:33:22
every single ball and then one day or
00:33:25
one point in that match you're going to
00:33:26
be like ah screw it I give up so my mind
00:33:30
the war of attrition the long game hey
00:33:32
that's that's what we're all playing
00:33:34
very cool Sam well thank you again for
00:33:35
sitting down with us today on the best
00:33:37
interest podcast oh thanks for having
00:33:41
me thanks for tuning into to this
00:33:43
episode of the best interest podcast if
00:33:46
you have a question for Jesse to answer
00:33:47
on a future episode send him an email at
00:33:50
Jesse ATB bestin interest. blog again
00:33:53
that's Jesse at bestter interest. blog
00:33:57
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00:33:59
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00:34:01
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00:34:07
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00:34:10
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00:34:13
podcast the best interest podcast is a
00:34:15
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00:34:17
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00:34:20
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00:34:22
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