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welcome to the best interest podcast
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where we believe Benjamin Franklin's
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advice that an investment in knowledge
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pays the best interest both in finances
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and in your life every episode teaches
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you personal finance and investing in
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simple terms now here's your host Jesse
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[Music]
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Kramer hey guys what's up welcome to
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episode 49 of the best interest podcast
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my name is Jesse Kramer we'll kind of
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get right to the point today on Saturday
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February 25th 2023 Warren Buffett
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published his annual letter to
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shareholders for his company Burkshire
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hathway it's always a great letter
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Warren Buffett is an excellent writer
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and there's always a lot to learn not
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all of it is nitty-gritty investing
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stuff a lot of it is just general
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education that we can apply to many
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different areas of our life one of which
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is personal finance and investing and
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one of my friends here in Rochester his
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name is Rob Bradley he's a a certified
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financial planner CF P he and I have
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talked before a lot about Warren Buffett
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because we both happen to be Burkshire
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hathway shareholders Rob in fact has
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even visited Omaha before during the
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shareholders meeting and seeing Warren
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Buffett and Charlie Munger speak live
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which I think is really cool what we
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decided to do for today's episode is we
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both read through the the letter when it
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was published on Saturday the 25th as I
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speak to you right now it's Sunday the
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26th and we're sitting down on Sunday
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afternoon and we're just going to have a
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conversation about the letter some of
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the interesting things that Warren
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Buffett wrote and some of the helpful
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takeaways that were walking away with
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Lessons Learned CU I figure if it's
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stuff that Rob and I have learned maybe
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there will be some interesting things
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for you guys for you listeners to learn
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as well so I hope you enjoy our
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[Music]
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conversation
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[Music]
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Rob how you doing Jesse doing well you
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know it's fun coming in on a Sunday and
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and of all things talking about
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birkshire hathway something we both very
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much enjoy how long have you been a a
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birkshire hathway shareholder great
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question so directly for just a little
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bit under a decade wish I had invested
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sooner and longer ago but just under 10
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years okay okay I'm probably at a year
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maybe a year and a half myself okay it
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was I think it was last it was probably
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starting 12 or 15 months ago I got into
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some birkshire shareholders YouTube
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videos while I was running because if I
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listen to music when I run it kind of
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amps me up too much and I get tired okay
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I'm going for like a long slow run
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listening to Warren and Charlie is
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actually a great way to pass the time
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learn something and not get myself too
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amped up Okay so yesterday we had the
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shareholders letter get published if you
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listeners we we'll throw a link in the
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show show notes so you guys can download
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the PDF and read it yourself it's only
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about 10 pages so it's a pretty quick
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read yep I mean I'll just I'll just
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throw it over to you Rob I certainly
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have some of my notes but let's just
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start talking through some of the notes
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that we took I see you took some notes
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even on the very first page which shows
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Burkshire Hathway's returns right over
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time what are what are your thoughts on
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that page so the first page of the
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annual shareholder letter it's always
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the same first page it's Berkshire
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Hathaways performance versus the S&P 500
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compounded and going back to 19 65
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showing Year bye in a very simple format
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it shows through year end 2022 that the
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compounded annual gain was annualized at
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19.8% per year for well over 50 years
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the S&P 500 over that same time period
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is
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99.9% so the reason that I highlighted
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certain areas of those annual returns is
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that what Warren Buffett would tell you
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and as very often proclaimed is that
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that Advantage a
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performance double the S&P on a
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long-term basis is not one that's
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sustainable at all and that track record
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though it's been great over shorter time
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periods as well it's heavily skewed by
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the returns in the early years so for
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example in
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1965 Berkshire was up 49.5% versus 10
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for the S&P m so a huge Edge 3 years
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later was up 78% versus the S&P is 11 a
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few years later this is in
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1969 or 70 it was up 80% versus 14.6 for
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the S&P 500 so the important point to
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take from that is that those huge
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returns and huge return
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advantages over the S&P 500 occurred
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when Burkshire Hathway's portfolio of
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assets was very very small and so
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because of that a few investment
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decisions that were relatively small in
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size could have had a huge return
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advantage over the
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S&P and those results of course now have
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compounded over another 50 years so
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they're not repeatable or sustainable no
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investor should expect to double the S&P
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500's return if they owned shares of
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Burkshire hathway right and Warren
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Warren and Charlie have talked about
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that before at the shareholders meetings
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where you know in a hypothetical
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scenario if you were to give them a
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million dollars and say go buy a million
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dollar company and try to get as big a
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return on it as possible they might be
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able to find a way to return 50% on that
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million dollars in a year but if you
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told them here's a billion or 10 billion
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or more which those are kind of the
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quantities that they're working with
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these days when it comes to buying a new
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company or or investing in a new stock
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it's harder to get that big of return on
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that big of a dollar amount that's
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exactly right so as a matter of fact
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what they would say is they have a hard
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time finding things to buy because
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anything that they would buy that would
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be a meaningful investment would have to
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be so massive in order to move the
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needle or even be worthwhile for for
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Burkshire as an entity to invest in
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there are relatively limited
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opportunities so you know I I would be
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one of in the camp that it is reasonable
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and very possible that Burkshire will
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continue to outperform the S&P 500 by a
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modest margin on a go forward basis
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certainly because it's a single company
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it could also underperform if it does
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outperform it will not be anywhere near
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the historical magnitude of what is
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really stunning long-term out
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performance double the S&P 500 but not
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just for a year or 3 years or 5 years
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you know that this is over 58 years it's
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a stunning track record that they would
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be the first to tell you will not be
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repeatable but that doesn't mean that it
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won't still be good right right I like
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it I like it let's get into some of the
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actual uh uh text of the letter yeah
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because it's always interesting how how
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Warren writes you know we were talking
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before the recording how some of it's
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kind of folksy wisdom yeah he doesn't
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really get into too much of the
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nitty-gritty investing accounting kind
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of math type details
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lose people instead he keeps it pretty
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high level at least at this part of the
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letter so maybe we can just go through
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kind of almost Page by Page and we'll
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pause stop talk when either one of us
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took notes on on a particular thought
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sure let's do it so I know upfront you
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wrote a note about this beforehand Rob
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about how Warren writes to his investors
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almost the way that a financial adviser
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writes to their clients in terms of the
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the thought and the care that Warren has
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for his investors money and and and the
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way he he tries to you know he goes
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Charlie and I watch with pleasure the
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vast flow of Burkshire generated funds
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sent to public needs and the the
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infrequency with which our shareholders
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opt for look at me assets and Dynasty
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building I mean in this case he was
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saying so many of Burkshire investors
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who do have millions tens hundreds of
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millions of burshire dollars choose to
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donate a lot of that money to charity in
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the same way that maybe an adviser might
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help their client set up like a Donor
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advised fund or something along the
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lines yep he speaks very much with the
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voice of your friend and trusted
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adviser that is stewarding your capital
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and helping make decisions for your own
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Investment Portfolio and the really
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unique thing about the culture of
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Burkshire hathway is that is exactly how
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they look at how they run that company
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and I think it starts with their Roots
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so when Warren Buffett started in the
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investment business he was a private he
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was like a fund manager
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he he was a private money manager he
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started a partnership then after many
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years and much success of essentially
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managing money for friends and family
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and getting tired of the K1 and some of
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the tax complexities then also in the
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late 60s or excuse me late 50s early 60s
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when he saw the stock market as being
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relatively overvalued he actually closed
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that first what was called the buffet
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partnership and redistributed all the
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money back to shareholders because
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didn't find anything that he thought was
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a great investment at that point this is
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when the you know the the nifty50 stocks
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of the 60s and 70s we're really starting
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to stretch valuations but he's always
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approached what he does with that care
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of someone that's stewarding capital for
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their own friends and family and a lot
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of his shareholders are still those
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people but he also recognizes that many
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of those shareholders have a large
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portion of their net worth in birkshire
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theyve implicitly trusted Burkshire with
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much or most of their life savings and
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he takes his approach very personally
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and seriously that way right he talks a
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lot about his sister maybe sisters who I
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think at this point at least one of them
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might have recently died in the last
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couple years but right they had a lot of
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their money with Warren or in Berkshire
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hathway and when he writes this letter
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he thinks to himself he's writing to his
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sisters in a way that they're they're
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bright people but they don't really
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understand how businesses run don't
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understand the underlying complexity of
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what's going on so he writes to a level
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that they can appreciate and learn and
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follow along and helps me out you know
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I'm sure maybe I could understand some
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of the complex stuff but writing in a
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way that people understand is uh a
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pretty nice thing to do yeah I think it
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may be Einstein who said if you can't
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explain something very simply then you
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don't really understand it and that's
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the approach that he takes to investing
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now this is a little bit I shouldn't say
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it's a little bit it's a lot sexist but
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the way he said it is you know if I
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can't explain an investment to my sister
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now of course as you said his sisters
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are very bright people brilliant even
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they just don't play or understand
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investment markets or Focus their
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intelligence in that area but he's he's
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often said if I can't explain it to my
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sister then I shouldn't invest in it no
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that's a good thought I like this one
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Rob on on page two Charlie and I are not
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stock Pickers we are business Pickers I
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mean that's something that you and I
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being kind of followers acolytes of
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Warren Buffett we've heard him say
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something like that a lot but maybe
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someone listening to this podcast hasn't
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really heard doesn't really understand
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the Nuance difference I mean when you
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read Warren Buffett say that Charlie and
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I are not stock Pickers we are business
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Pickers what do you think well I think
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that he is looking to invest in
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businesses that he understands and he's
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not looking for a hot popular stock or a
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company that people start talking about
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at a cocktail party because it's the
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bright new shiny thing or maybe the
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Tesla from five or seven years ago he's
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really looking at the way he invests as
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being a partner to take an ownership
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stake in a portion of a business versus
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a short-term Trader or someone that's
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investing in something that's doing well
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I.E a stock that maybe they really don't
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understand yeah one of his other related
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quotes is most investors would do better
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if the stock market was open once every
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5 years or something along those lines
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right because maybe the average young
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stock picker who was trying to make some
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quick money during covid right they
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might have been trading on a daily
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weekly monthly basis and that is the
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antithesis of what Warren Buffett does
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they're thinking years decades in
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advance by you know their favorite
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holding period is forever right right so
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kind of the anti- robobin hood effect
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approach if you will whereas you know
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many new
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investors that were young enough to
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never have experienced some of the pain
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of the great financial crisis jumped
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into the markets in their 20s for the
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first time over the last say three years
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maybe from the start of covid or a
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little bit sooner before that and the
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Really approach was buy something that's
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going up you know there's a meme stock
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everyone's talking about it let's throw
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,000 into that and see what happens so
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you know that would be the definition of
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chasing a hot Dot and
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speculating you know whereas he of
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course is defining investing as
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something very differently and more like
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being a partner in a business that you'd
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be happy to own a portion of and if you
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couldn't sell it for five years or more
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that wouldn't distress you at all
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because that's how you're looking at
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your investing time frame but also your
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commitment to what you're putting your
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money in versus that of a a Trader right
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he goes on to write the one advantage of
00:13:57
our publicly traded segment is that
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episodically it becomes easy to buy
00:14:02
pieces of wonderful businesses at
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wonderful prices it's crucial to
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understand that stocks often trade at
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truly foolish prices both high and low
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efficient markets exist only in
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textbooks you know we don't have to go
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into too much of the of the professional
00:14:17
side of what we do but the efficient
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market hypothesis for those listeners
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who are unaware states to some extent
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that the stock market finds the price of
00:14:27
a stock more
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accurately than you might be able to do
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on your own and therefore you could you
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should trust the stock market's pricing
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essentially is what the effici market
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hypothesis says it's the wisdom of the
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crowd right if there's known information
00:14:42
about Apple everyone knows it it's
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followed by hundreds of thousands of
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analysts and investors if not more
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around the world and everything that's
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publicly known about that company on a
00:14:55
given day is reflected in what the
00:14:57
current Share Price is Right exactly and
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I think also Common Sense would tell
00:15:02
anyone that while long-term markets May
00:15:05
operate efficiently they're subject to
00:15:08
pretty extreme short-term swings of
00:15:11
emotions animal spirits of investors
00:15:14
news headlines and the cumulative gain
00:15:18
from the covid trough let's say to a
00:15:21
2021 Peak on the S&P 500 was boy that
00:15:26
was close to a 100% gain let's say
00:15:29
don't have that number in front of me
00:15:30
but no one would argue that the size of
00:15:33
the economy increased 100% over that
00:15:36
time period or its future growth or
00:15:39
earnings potential increased 100% it was
00:15:42
just valued very lowly right 2020
00:15:45
because the amount of uncertainty that
00:15:47
was present in the world and valued much
00:15:51
much more optimistically about two years
00:15:54
later though also in a very important
00:15:57
backdrop where essentially interest
00:15:59
rates went to zero so there were no
00:16:01
other good alternatives to to place
00:16:04
money but he recognizes that those
00:16:06
swings are going to occur and prices are
00:16:09
going to be irrationally high at times
00:16:11
they're going to be irrationally low at
00:16:12
times right and and you can you know
00:16:14
it's that old parable of Mr Market that
00:16:16
Benjamin Gran liked so much is is you
00:16:19
don't have to do business with someone
00:16:20
who's being irrational right and if if
00:16:23
the stock market is irrationally high
00:16:25
you don't necessarily you don't have to
00:16:27
buy at IR rationally high price
00:16:29
if the stock market's irrationally low
00:16:31
you don't have to sell in fact what
00:16:33
Benjamin Graham would say is you should
00:16:34
try to do the opposite you should try to
00:16:36
you know take advantage of the Market's
00:16:38
irrationality which is is something that
00:16:40
you know Warren and Charlie clearly have
00:16:42
done a few times over their careers we
00:16:45
were talking earlier Rob about the great
00:16:47
financial crisis 2008 where I'm not sure
00:16:49
if all these deals were necessarily on
00:16:51
the public markets some of them might
00:16:52
have occurred behind closed doors oh
00:16:54
sure they did but some you know some of
00:16:56
the Investments That Burkshire have way
00:16:58
made in 2008 2009 were essentially large
00:17:02
financial institutions Goldman Sachs you
00:17:05
know Bank of America they had no other
00:17:06
option yeah but to accept money from
00:17:09
Berkshire hathway Y and Warren Buffett
00:17:12
knew the leverage that he had on them
00:17:14
and was able to negotiate very
00:17:16
beneficial terms for Berkshire he was
00:17:19
presented with fantastic investing
00:17:21
opportunities because of the amount of
00:17:24
capital that he had in liquid cash and
00:17:27
short-term treasuries that simply was
00:17:29
not available elsewhere unless it was
00:17:31
from the Federal Reserve so back in
00:17:33
those days the Federal Reserve was
00:17:37
grappling with what is too big to fail
00:17:40
what do we do with weeman after be
00:17:43
Sterns and do we let a Morgan Stanley do
00:17:47
we let a Goldman Sachs Circle down the
00:17:50
drain well the Federal Reserve didn't
00:17:53
have to step into the capital structure
00:17:55
of those investment Banks because they
00:17:57
were able ble to obtain emergency
00:17:59
funding from Berkshire hathway in the
00:18:02
form of warrants and Preferred
00:18:05
Securities that were offered to him at
00:18:08
stunning prices again I we were talking
00:18:11
earlier I think he was offered Goldman
00:18:14
preferreds at 9% with a conversion
00:18:16
privilege to Common Equity as well so he
00:18:18
was going to get 9% one way or the other
00:18:21
and if the common stock did great he
00:18:23
could then also choose to convert those
00:18:26
into common shares which which he Ely
00:18:28
did and then sold and he still owns a
00:18:31
large stake in Bank of America from that
00:18:33
so the point is just that because of who
00:18:36
he is and his position in the financial
00:18:39
world and his
00:18:40
liquidity Burkshire was presented with
00:18:44
investment opportunities that
00:18:45
individuals just would not have had the
00:18:48
volume um or the opportunity to to put
00:18:50
their money into right and then there's
00:18:52
a good lesson just in that very last
00:18:54
sentence you said Rob which is that when
00:18:56
you happen to be the person who's
00:18:58
running a multi hundred billion dollar
00:19:00
business and you do have billions and
00:19:03
billions of cash and treasury bonds
00:19:04
sitting in your bank account quote
00:19:07
unquote bank account right you will be
00:19:09
presented with opportunities that you
00:19:11
and I sitting here will never be
00:19:12
presented with right you know no one on
00:19:14
Wall Street was calling Jesse Kramer or
00:19:17
Rob Bradley correct in 2008 saying will
00:19:19
you please help us bail out Leman
00:19:21
Brothers Goldman sacks Etc so so Warren
00:19:24
has kind of positioned himself simply as
00:19:27
a function of the size of burshire
00:19:29
hathway the way that it's compounded
00:19:30
over the last 60 years in just a
00:19:32
completely unique way that you and I or
00:19:36
the average listener will never
00:19:37
experience but it's it's been pretty
00:19:40
beneficial for shareholders of Burkshire
00:19:42
hathway yeah yeah they they're a unique
00:19:45
entity in the financial world and that
00:19:47
they have the type of cash liquidity
00:19:50
that no one other than a central Banker
00:19:52
can match and are interested in being
00:19:56
opportunistic at the the the right time
00:19:59
right and and I'm skipping ahead to
00:20:01
something that Warren wrote at the end
00:20:03
of the letter where he goes you know the
00:20:05
CEO of Berkshire hathway whether it's
00:20:07
him as it is right now or whoever it may
00:20:09
be in the future is the chief risk
00:20:11
officer and one thing I've always loved
00:20:14
about the way Warren and Charlie
00:20:15
approach business is their view of risk
00:20:18
management aligns very much with the way
00:20:21
I think and I I think it's the way that
00:20:23
a lot of common folks think about risk
00:20:25
management about you know one of
00:20:27
Warren's famous quotes is why risk
00:20:30
something that you have and need for
00:20:32
something that you don't have and don't
00:20:34
need it's a great question and you know
00:20:36
a perfect example is if you have $10
00:20:38
million let's say and that's all you
00:20:40
need for the rest of your life why would
00:20:41
you put any of that at risk you have it
00:20:43
right now and you need it sure and and
00:20:46
so a lot of businesses would look at
00:20:49
berkshire's hundred billion dollars in
00:20:52
cash and treasury bonds and say like oh
00:20:54
that's such that's just cash that's not
00:20:55
doing anything for you opportunity cost
00:20:58
yeah let's lever this thing up and go
00:21:00
exactly and it's just so interesting
00:21:02
that Warren and Charlie said no we're
00:21:04
not going to risk The Entity that is
00:21:07
Burkshire hathway just to chase some
00:21:09
extra gains with this cash they like
00:21:11
having that cash as a a safety net right
00:21:14
and another one of his quotables is
00:21:15
we've made far more money by avoiding
00:21:18
dragons than slaying them interest I
00:21:21
haven't heard that one I like that so
00:21:22
they are definitely looking at the
00:21:25
investing World from almost a Moneyball
00:21:27
type of pers perspective where they
00:21:29
don't feel that they need to take home
00:21:31
run swings and hit home runs when they
00:21:33
can be very consistent and very patient
00:21:36
with a high batting average and drawing
00:21:38
a lot of walks and hitting singles over
00:21:40
time right right it's a good lesson to
00:21:43
apply to uh doesn't have to just be an
00:21:45
investing lesson there right I mean you
00:21:47
can apply to other parts of your life
00:21:49
too I mean I I think about diet and
00:21:52
fitness is something I I write about
00:21:54
sometimes on the blog where a very
00:21:56
simple kind of single and doubles type
00:21:59
diet and exercise routine is infinitely
00:22:02
better than the idea of hitting home
00:22:04
runs I mean I don't know what a hitting
00:22:06
home run diet and exercise routine would
00:22:07
be working for four hours a day so you
00:22:10
work out for four hours a day and then
00:22:12
you're so physically and emotionally
00:22:14
exhausted and your wife and kids are
00:22:16
angry at the time commitment after two
00:22:18
or three days you're never going to do
00:22:20
it again whereas the person that maybe
00:22:22
works out for 20 to 30 minutes a day but
00:22:25
is absolutely consistent religious and
00:22:28
is saying hey I'm willing to do this a
00:22:31
thousand times right will end up in a
00:22:34
far better end result in the extremist
00:22:37
that tries to get it all done in a day
00:22:39
or another great way that Warren has
00:22:40
said it and he has so many wonderful
00:22:43
turns of phrase I think I actually have
00:22:45
it written here with some of my favorite
00:22:47
Buffett quotes successful investing
00:22:49
takes time discipline and patience no
00:22:53
matter how great the talent or effort
00:22:55
some things just take time you can't
00:22:57
produce a baby in one month by getting
00:23:00
nine women pregnant that's Warren's
00:23:02
quote not mine I don't I don't recommend
00:23:04
that approach to anything but that just
00:23:07
he has a wonderful way of making that
00:23:09
Common Sense lesson of time and patience
00:23:11
really hit home definitely and I know
00:23:13
you know a lot of the listeners a lot of
00:23:15
the folks who will end up listening to
00:23:17
this conversation Rob are they might be
00:23:19
on the younger side of their either
00:23:21
their life or definitely on the younger
00:23:22
side of their infesting career and
00:23:24
there's a lesson there where it's hard
00:23:28
to make up for the way compounding helps
00:23:30
you over time you know it's it's been
00:23:32
written about before where if you
00:23:34
compared someone who just threw a ton of
00:23:36
money at their Investment Portfolio and
00:23:37
then waited five years versus someone
00:23:40
who trickled money in steadily but had
00:23:43
the patience to wait 50 years the power
00:23:46
of that compounding in the long run it's
00:23:48
it's hard
00:23:49
to yeah I mean I you know in today's
00:23:52
investing world where much of the
00:23:55
information is distributed via social
00:23:58
media you have to remember that people
00:24:01
love reporting their winners and they
00:24:05
can become very forgetful when it comes
00:24:07
to telling you how s seldomly those
00:24:10
winners occurred or framing them with
00:24:13
all the losers it took to find one
00:24:15
winner and so you know that that really
00:24:18
is the opposite of his approach because
00:24:21
he's so focused on
00:24:23
fundamentals time and patience when you
00:24:26
are focused on fundamentals time and
00:24:29
patience you don't need to hit a home
00:24:31
run and you don't need to chase a hot
00:24:33
dot you just need to again be consistent
00:24:35
and keep hitting single after single
00:24:38
drawing a few walks and not striking out
00:24:41
too many times with those home run
00:24:43
swings right and he does you know he
00:24:44
goes on and he writes about a couple
00:24:47
which I don't want to put words in in
00:24:48
Warren's mouth but it seems like he's
00:24:50
treating Coca-Cola and American Express
00:24:53
as to at the very least extra base hits
00:24:56
if not home runs he admits that most of
00:24:59
what Burkshire hathway has done over the
00:25:01
60 years has been marginal mediocre
00:25:05
pretty average but then when you add in
00:25:07
the 10 or so big big hits two of which
00:25:11
are are Coca-Cola and American Express
00:25:13
you know the others might be um was it
00:25:15
BNSF the railroad the Energy company is
00:25:18
it BH energy I think is the name so you
00:25:21
add in some companies like that and then
00:25:23
you get home run like performance
00:25:27
compounded over over 60 years right so
00:25:29
you know he would say if you're at worst
00:25:32
average in your investment decisions
00:25:35
most all the time avoid large
00:25:38
mistakes every once in a while you're
00:25:40
going to get lucky and have some massive
00:25:43
upside variance so your results over
00:25:46
time can still be much much more than
00:25:49
satisfactory and I would say that the
00:25:51
most recent decision without question is
00:25:54
the investment in Apple so a little bit
00:25:57
over 40% as of current estimates of the
00:26:01
Burkshire Hathaway Securities portfolio
00:26:04
which is contained within Berkshire
00:26:06
Hathaway the publicly traded company is
00:26:09
invested in apple that stake was first
00:26:12
taken only in 2016 I believe so he
00:26:16
hasn't even invested in Apple for a long
00:26:18
time but has had a massive return just
00:26:22
over the last 6 and a half years that
00:26:24
they've been Apple shareholders to the
00:26:26
point where now because of that and
00:26:28
subsequent Investments it's over 40% of
00:26:31
the Securities that they own whereas
00:26:33
even Coca-Cola and American Express are
00:26:35
closer to the five or six% range a much
00:26:38
smaller share right that is interesting
00:26:40
especially you know Charlie and and
00:26:41
Warren for a long time they got some
00:26:43
flak for not investing in in tech stocks
00:26:45
really you know famously one of Warren's
00:26:48
best friends is Bill Gates but Warren's
00:26:50
never invested in Microsoft it's just an
00:26:52
example I'm just curious I mean do you
00:26:54
do you have a feel for why they invested
00:26:57
in Apple in the first place I mean maybe
00:26:59
you've heard Warren or Charlie talk
00:27:00
about that before yeah I have and I do
00:27:03
and so they have long stated that they
00:27:06
won't invest in anything that they don't
00:27:09
understand very well and fully and that
00:27:13
was their attitude towards most all
00:27:15
technology companies for really most of
00:27:18
the past 30 years since investing in
00:27:21
technology companies became more than a
00:27:23
mainstream thing their decision on Apple
00:27:27
revolved around the brand loyalty and
00:27:30
them seeing it as an indispensable
00:27:32
consumer product and realizing that when
00:27:35
someone was in the Apple ecosystem they
00:27:38
tended to stay there it was very
00:27:41
sticky there was a implied inconvenience
00:27:46
switching cost which no one wants to do
00:27:49
when you're in the Apple ecosystem you
00:27:51
don't want to get a Samsung phone and so
00:27:53
they recognize the power of the brand
00:27:55
they recognize the value of subscription
00:27:59
services that Apple has slowly been
00:28:01
ramping up and understand that company
00:28:04
as a consumer product versus a
00:28:07
Technology stock and that's why they got
00:28:09
really comfortable investing in apple
00:28:11
but I would also say I think they got
00:28:13
really comfortable investing in apple
00:28:15
because they have a very well planned
00:28:19
succession in my opinion you're saying
00:28:21
apple has a well planned succession no
00:28:24
berer does yeah and that succession is
00:28:26
that war is had two investment deputies
00:28:29
Todd comes and Ted Wexler that have been
00:28:34
influencing his decisions on Capital
00:28:37
allocation specifically with regards to
00:28:39
individual stock purchases and so it's
00:28:42
believ that one of them was actually the
00:28:46
first to get him to cross the Rubicon
00:28:49
and invest in Apple and as he became
00:28:52
more aware saw how Apple itself handled
00:28:56
its business and purchased its own
00:28:58
shares which of course Berkshire always
00:29:02
recently in particular has loved to do
00:29:05
essentially got him on board and so
00:29:07
those two individuals that have now
00:29:09
worked with Warren for over 10 years on
00:29:12
the investment decisions of Burkshire
00:29:13
Hathaway are the succession plan and so
00:29:16
one of the reasons that you know when
00:29:18
you think about the long-term risk of
00:29:20
that company of course people wonder
00:29:23
what would happen when waren passes away
00:29:25
he's
00:29:26
92 and and still incredibly bright
00:29:29
poised and engaged but no one beats
00:29:34
father time or the reaper and so he's
00:29:37
got two deputies that have been there
00:29:38
for succession purposes but also to I
00:29:41
think help keep their thinking
00:29:43
conservative while being Progressive as
00:29:46
far as accepting of technology companies
00:29:48
right and if you study the birkshire
00:29:50
hathway equity portfolio you'll see
00:29:53
Amazon has a role you'll see uh
00:29:56
snowflake Lake the cloud services
00:29:59
company and data Lake company that they
00:30:02
have invested in actually before it's
00:30:04
IPO and some other very interesting
00:30:06
names that are creeping into the
00:30:09
Burkshire hathway portfolio which now
00:30:11
has more Technology stock exposure
00:30:14
thanks to Apple than the S&P 500 as a
00:30:16
whole wow that's I didn't know that
00:30:18
that's an interesting stat that final
00:30:19
stat you you just read off Rob what's
00:30:21
your thought you mentioned stock
00:30:23
BuyBacks there briefly and Warren writes
00:30:25
about stock BuyBacks here in the letter
00:30:28
I was just trying to scroll back through
00:30:29
and find the exact quote where he
00:30:31
mentioned you know a silver tongue
00:30:33
demagog very very tasty words from
00:30:36
Warren with regards to how the issue of
00:30:40
stock BuyBacks has been
00:30:43
politicized and really caused companies
00:30:47
that are buying back shares to be
00:30:51
villainized as far as extreme
00:30:54
capitalists that are you know perhaps
00:30:58
exploiting their employees and not
00:31:01
investing in their own companies in
00:31:04
capital
00:31:05
expenditures maybe in giving better
00:31:08
employee pay or raises so this becomes a
00:31:10
very politicized issue right and at the
00:31:13
State of the Union President Biden had
00:31:16
said something that Warren who was a
00:31:18
Biden supporter really bristle that
00:31:21
which is that he wanted to quadruple the
00:31:25
corporate excise tax on stock BuyBacks
00:31:29
because he he really this is Biden uh
00:31:33
you know implied it was capitalists
00:31:36
really exploiting their position instead
00:31:38
of doing something that was better for
00:31:40
people gotcha and and so I mean just
00:31:42
taking a step back let's go really
00:31:44
simple with this a stock buyback if I'm
00:31:47
Warren Buffett and let's say I do have a
00:31:49
hundred billion dollar in the bank I
00:31:52
could choose to buy my own stock that's
00:31:56
selling out there on the Public Market I
00:31:57
can buy Burkshire halfway stock and then
00:32:00
here's where I get I just you know I'm
00:32:02
looking for confirmation on this Rob
00:32:04
essentially I choose to dissolve some of
00:32:06
that stock in a way that's right and it
00:32:08
reduces the total number of shares that
00:32:10
are
00:32:11
outstanding which therefore if you and I
00:32:13
are sitting here as shareholders our
00:32:15
percentage ownership of burk your
00:32:17
hathway actually goes up just went up
00:32:18
yeah just went up so it's stock BuyBacks
00:32:21
depending on the price are usually good
00:32:24
for shareholders yes usually good for
00:32:27
the CEO who's executing those BuyBacks
00:32:30
but I'm spending money that's in the
00:32:32
bank that what Joe Biden would say is
00:32:35
you could be spending that money on your
00:32:36
employees or some other way in the
00:32:38
company rather than just making your
00:32:40
shareholders a little bit richer that's
00:32:43
exactly right yeah so so Warren sees
00:32:45
share BuyBacks as a way to concentrate
00:32:50
and improve shareholder returns and
00:32:53
shareholder value which they
00:32:54
unquestionably are the I would say the
00:32:57
the left side of the political aisle
00:32:59
especially the far left has really
00:33:02
targeted that practice and villainized
00:33:06
it in a way that he disagrees with so
00:33:08
here's the quote and this is pretty
00:33:09
strong words when you are told that all
00:33:12
repurchases are harmful to shareholders
00:33:14
or to the country or particularly
00:33:17
beneficial to CEOs you are listening to
00:33:20
either an economic illiterate or a
00:33:24
silver tonged demagogue characters that
00:33:27
are not mutually exclusive so that's a
00:33:30
stinging
00:33:31
rebuke and it is pretty clearly directed
00:33:35
at President Biden and this is from
00:33:37
someone who is a lifelong and well-known
00:33:40
Democrat that is Warren Buffett who was
00:33:42
a supporter of President Biden supporter
00:33:45
of Hillary Clinton's campaign this is a
00:33:48
well-known Democratic supporter
00:33:50
absolutely who is you know certainly a
00:33:52
capitalist but sees capitalism as not
00:33:56
being
00:33:58
anti-democratic in its values and pretty
00:34:01
sharply criticizing the the president
00:34:03
over his inclusion of share repurchases
00:34:08
as being exploitative of the common good
00:34:12
right and then Warren does he describes
00:34:14
you know an example uh he uses an auto
00:34:16
dealership as an example where maybe
00:34:18
they concentrated ownership through some
00:34:20
sort of price share buyback and then he
00:34:23
says you know who who has that
00:34:24
transaction harmed is the manager harmed
00:34:27
or favored over passive owners has the
00:34:29
public been hurt and essentially his
00:34:31
argument is if you do share Buybacks in
00:34:33
a responsible way if you ensure that the
00:34:36
price is in some way responsible so that
00:34:38
no one's getting exploited too much then
00:34:40
it really is kind of a no harm no foul
00:34:42
situation the shareholders benefit
00:34:45
simply from getting a more concentrated
00:34:47
ownership stake but that the public
00:34:49
doesn't have to be hurt by it and so I
00:34:50
think that's really what he's getting at
00:34:52
as far as if someone out there is saying
00:34:55
that all share BuyBacks are bad then
00:34:58
that's that's painting with too broad of
00:35:01
a brush way too broad of a brush yeah I
00:35:03
think he feels that it's been lumped in
00:35:06
with issuing huge amounts of stock
00:35:08
options to CEOs for excessive corporate
00:35:13
executive compensation and the gap
00:35:15
between the average CEO compensation and
00:35:19
the average employee I think he's right
00:35:21
in that that is a practice that you know
00:35:24
should not be villainized right so Rob I
00:35:27
want to know what your thoughts are
00:35:28
there's a section here on page seven
00:35:30
where he talks about our journey to 2023
00:35:32
a bumpy road involving a combination of
00:35:34
continuous savings by our owners that is
00:35:36
by Burkshire retaining earnings power of
00:35:39
compounding our avoidance of major
00:35:41
mistakes we already touched on that one
00:35:43
but most important of all according to
00:35:45
Warren Buffett is that Burkshire hathway
00:35:47
benefited from the American Tailwind the
00:35:49
American Tailwind right America would
00:35:51
have done fine without Burkshire but the
00:35:54
reverse is not true so I'm curious from
00:35:57
a from an investing point of view I
00:35:59
mean I in my work I always talk about
00:36:02
all the S&P 500 historically has
00:36:04
returned 10% per year but that statistic
00:36:07
itself birkshire hathway success it all
00:36:10
falls within the shadow of this is the
00:36:13
American Stock Market the American
00:36:15
economy the American tailwind and is
00:36:19
that Tailwind going to exist moving
00:36:20
forward if so how strong might it be I'm
00:36:23
just curious what your thoughts are on
00:36:25
International diversification not
00:36:27
necessarily for birkshire hathway but
00:36:28
just kind of in general as a as an
00:36:30
investing concept yeah well let me start
00:36:32
by sharing why I think that Warren's
00:36:35
opinion of it is what it is he certainly
00:36:39
likes investing in things that he
00:36:41
intimately understands and wants boots
00:36:43
on the ground familiarity with
00:36:45
everything that he invests in and
00:36:47
allocates capital to so that's certainly
00:36:50
one of the reasons for his very very
00:36:52
strong domestic
00:36:55
bias this is a common theme that he hits
00:36:58
on going back to the great financial
00:37:01
crisis where in the fall of 2008 he
00:37:03
published a letter in the Wall Street
00:37:05
Journal that was titled by American I am
00:37:10
and you know he believes in the
00:37:12
Ingenuity of the American Spirit he
00:37:15
believes in the business friendly
00:37:17
environment in the United States which
00:37:20
does have some business friendly
00:37:22
advantages that even major developed
00:37:24
economies around the world don't
00:37:27
could you share with me for example
00:37:29
Jesse who the uh Australian equivalent
00:37:32
of Amazon is or is there an Apple that
00:37:36
was born in Germany or perhaps you found
00:37:39
a Netflix in Great Britain the reality
00:37:42
is those companies in the comparables
00:37:45
they simply are not there Warren takes
00:37:48
that to an extreme in investing almost
00:37:52
exclusively domestically almost
00:37:55
exclusively at another point in our
00:37:57
conversation we should talk about is
00:37:59
devasure of Taiwan semiconductor stock
00:38:02
okay which is a very interesting move
00:38:05
but yeah he clearly believes that
00:38:07
there's a advantage to us companies and
00:38:12
the US business Spirit and the US free
00:38:15
market system that even most other
00:38:18
developed economies and democracies
00:38:21
don't enjoy and when you think about
00:38:23
that question that I just mentioned why
00:38:25
isn't there a Microsoft that was started
00:38:27
in South America and then ask yourself
00:38:30
the next question about why isn't there
00:38:32
an alphabet that came from Europe it is
00:38:35
interesting that so many huge world
00:38:38
changing new businesses and technology
00:38:41
companies have only been birth in the
00:38:43
United States now as far as the broader
00:38:46
perspective for most investors having
00:38:49
International
00:38:51
diversification of significant
00:38:53
proportion anywhere from 30 to 40% of
00:38:55
their Equity EXP exposure is prudent and
00:38:58
for one reason among several is because
00:39:01
of currency exposure if the United
00:39:03
States went through a period where its
00:39:05
currency was depreciating against those
00:39:09
around the world international
00:39:11
non-currency hedged Investments would be
00:39:14
one of the only ways to protect against
00:39:16
a risk like that so without getting into
00:39:20
some of the political extremism and the
00:39:23
thought about the US debt SE
00:39:27
and default issues that we are really
00:39:29
facing in 2023 I would say there are
00:39:32
many reasons that International
00:39:34
diversification of meaningful amount is
00:39:37
prudent for any investor though again
00:39:39
Warren likes really really concentrated
00:39:41
bets and he's chosen America as
00:39:44
essentially his one and only right right
00:39:46
it's funny how I think investors all
00:39:48
over the world I was reading a paper a
00:39:50
few months ago almost all investors in
00:39:52
the world have some sort of Home Country
00:39:54
bias home bias yeah everyone does you
00:39:56
know if you look at like the average
00:39:57
Germans stock portfolio there's a lot of
00:40:00
German stocks in there that you and I
00:40:02
have probably never heard of we just
00:40:04
happen Warren just so happens we we've
00:40:06
got lucky with with the ovarian Lottery
00:40:09
and that we were born in a place where
00:40:10
our home country bias is the best home
00:40:12
country bias to have had over the past
00:40:14
Century right and of course there are
00:40:16
many charts out there that will show you
00:40:18
almost never is the broad US Stock
00:40:21
Market the best performing Market in the
00:40:23
world just by law of large numbers that
00:40:26
doesn't happen very often but over long
00:40:30
periods of time it's produced excellent
00:40:32
returns and certainly some unique
00:40:35
companies that you cannot say they're
00:40:37
peers of in an international stock index
00:40:40
right and that that stat of America's
00:40:43
rarely number one but we're somewhere in
00:40:45
the middle you know I don't know maybe
00:40:47
the third quartile we're we're usually
00:40:49
above average and and pretty solid it
00:40:51
reminds me of Howard Marx and a couple
00:40:53
things you said earlier reminded me of
00:40:54
Howard Marx and his investment
00:40:56
philosophy if you're familiar with him
00:40:59
but one of his major philosophies it's
00:41:01
similar in a lot of ways to Buffett is I
00:41:03
don't need to be first but I refuse to
00:41:06
be last and if I can just be average
00:41:09
most of the time maybe slightly above
00:41:11
average really work hard to avoid
00:41:14
catastrophic losses then in the long run
00:41:17
a lot of the competition is going to
00:41:19
fall by the wayside and in the long run
00:41:22
my performance is going to be way above
00:41:24
average simply because I avoid anything
00:41:27
that was was too bad I think if you were
00:41:29
to look at say the American Stock Market
00:41:31
over the last 50 years I bet that's what
00:41:34
you would see it certainly has been
00:41:36
better than average but in very few
00:41:38
years has it been the best returning
00:41:39
market right right
00:41:41
exactly one thing that might be fun to
00:41:44
remind listeners is that I didn't print
00:41:46
it but if they look in the annual report
00:41:49
they can actually email questions to
00:41:52
Becky quick of CNBC yeah for
00:41:55
consideration to be asked to Warren and
00:41:58
Charlie at the shareholder meeting in
00:42:00
Omaha in May cool so I I actually think
00:42:03
that both you and I should submit a
00:42:05
question over email and see if we can
00:42:07
throw our hat into that Lottery yeah
00:42:10
because I've always thought it would be
00:42:12
very cool to have a question asked at
00:42:14
the shareholder meeting when I was there
00:42:16
last year I did try so you have to enter
00:42:20
a lottery at one of about 10 or 11
00:42:22
microphone locations I entered the
00:42:24
lottery I did did not get picked four
00:42:28
people from my section of the basketball
00:42:31
arena where the shareholder meeting is
00:42:33
held did get picked but they talked for
00:42:36
so long only one of them actually got to
00:42:39
ask their question so I was kind of glad
00:42:41
I didn't get picked a bummer cuz I would
00:42:42
have been nervous sitting there for like
00:42:44
five or six hours just hoping that I
00:42:47
wouldn't stumble fumble or lose Poise on
00:42:51
the mic right because you know I'm
00:42:53
fairly poised in front of a mic but
00:42:55
that's still a stage to be on yeah when
00:42:58
you're literally addressing an investing
00:43:00
Legend with a live question that's being
00:43:03
listened to by probably hundreds of
00:43:05
thousands of people listen to that Sher
00:43:07
their meeting around the world yeah but
00:43:08
that would be interesting to submit a
00:43:10
question and I think the the perspective
00:43:13
on what's happening with China and why
00:43:15
they reduced a recent and fairly
00:43:19
meaningful investment in Taiwan
00:43:22
semiconductor ticker symbol TSM the
00:43:25
largest chip manufacturer outside of the
00:43:28
United States I believe that they had
00:43:30
just bought in the third quarter of 2022
00:43:34
they cut it by 86% in the fourth quarter
00:43:36
of 2022 huh so he will probably be very
00:43:41
reticent to tell you exactly what he
00:43:43
really thinks but certainly there's a
00:43:45
lot of risk about Taiwan and this
00:43:48
Chinese Invasion eie political tension
00:43:51
that has been heightening so terribly
00:43:54
with China for the past few years right
00:43:56
you know when we really think about
00:43:58
China over the last 20 years they've
00:44:01
been our friend a huge supplier to so
00:44:07
many US companies right trading partners
00:44:10
H trading part they also make so many
00:44:12
components for Apple does that cause him
00:44:14
concern about his huge investment in
00:44:16
apple that much of their manufacturing
00:44:19
is located in Chino very interesting
00:44:21
questions right and that's a really good
00:44:23
point it's so far today we've been
00:44:25
talking about all the things that we
00:44:27
have seen here in the shareholders
00:44:29
letter which there's a lot of good
00:44:30
things to see but yeah that's a very
00:44:32
conspicuous absence and especially one
00:44:34
would think if this is the right this is
00:44:36
the Roundup of
00:44:37
2022 why wasn't that part of the letter
00:44:41
hope hopefully he does expand on that in
00:44:43
in May there were a few things that he
00:44:45
could have commented on so he didn't
00:44:47
comment at all on the collapse of FTX
00:44:51
and various aspects of
00:44:54
cryptocurrency those several years years
00:44:56
ago he went on record as saying that he
00:44:59
thought Bitcoin I believe the direct
00:45:01
verbiage he used was it's probably rat
00:45:04
poison
00:45:05
squared probably yes he put a qualifier
00:45:08
in there so he didn't say anything about
00:45:11
the unraveling of of many different
00:45:13
aspects of crypto he didn't talk about
00:45:16
inflation barely at all in the letter
00:45:19
and he didn't talk about systematically
00:45:22
higher interest rates though you know he
00:45:25
is Ley rubbing his hands together
00:45:28
because his cash pile that a few years
00:45:30
ago was earning 0 to 1% is now earning
00:45:34
four to maybe 5 a half% which by itself
00:45:38
is probably four five billion dollar of
00:45:42
free spending money of course to warn
00:45:45
that means investing money right to
00:45:47
Birch your
00:45:48
hathway every year going forward as long
00:45:51
as as short-term interest rates stay
00:45:53
elevated like that so I was a little
00:45:56
surprised he didn't say anything about
00:45:57
higher interest rates yeah I mean just
00:45:59
that was the prevailing economic story
00:46:01
of 2022 and I know Warren and Charlie
00:46:04
they at times will say we don't really
00:46:06
make decisions based on macroeconomic we
00:46:09
don't make macroeconomic predictions
00:46:11
they don't really care about
00:46:12
macroeconomic policy that much they much
00:46:15
rather would talk about individual
00:46:16
businesses and how they run but at the
00:46:19
same time Warren has said before
00:46:21
interest rates are to financial
00:46:23
instruments as gravity is to matter
00:46:26
gravity in that interest rates affect
00:46:29
everything that we're talking about
00:46:30
today so it is interesting that right he
00:46:32
was didn't really make a comment on
00:46:34
interest rates at all he did not no he
00:46:36
did not you reminded me of one of my
00:46:39
other favorite quotes when Warren has
00:46:41
said we're not interested in anyone's
00:46:44
predictions including our own they they
00:46:47
they are intrinsic value discounted cash
00:46:51
flow based investors they are not
00:46:54
prognosticators
00:46:56
so that's one thing that that I rever in
00:46:58
love about their approach you know Rob
00:47:01
I'm just looking over the rest of the
00:47:02
letter I think you know if I would
00:47:03
encourage listeners to go pull this PDF
00:47:06
like I said the link will be in the show
00:47:08
notes couple interesting sections on on
00:47:10
federal taxes we don't have to get into
00:47:12
that although I do think it's
00:47:13
interesting how much tax Burkshire
00:47:15
hathway has paid over the past decade
00:47:17
yes essentially one 1,000 I believe of
00:47:20
all of all the federal taxes federal
00:47:22
taxes came from Berkshire hathway as a
00:47:25
corporation and that's one of the
00:47:26
reasons he really doesn't care to be
00:47:28
called out for share repurchases though
00:47:32
he didn't connect the dots between those
00:47:34
two comments they are clearly connected
00:47:36
like Hey we're paying way more than our
00:47:39
fair share please don't villainize us
00:47:42
for trying to concentrate our
00:47:44
shareholders value and do what's really
00:47:46
just being a good Steward for our
00:47:48
shareholders right by buying back our
00:47:50
own stock that's not villain Behavior
00:47:53
it's just sound economic and investing
00:47:56
behavior on behalf of people that
00:47:57
entrusted their life savings to us and
00:48:00
and I will say as I read the section on
00:48:01
taxes Warren I think again very
00:48:04
intentionally
00:48:05
omitted a remaining part of the argument
00:48:08
which is go ask this same question of
00:48:11
the Amazons of the world right how much
00:48:13
federal tax have they paid over the past
00:48:15
decade right compare that to what
00:48:17
burshire Hathaway has paid you know not
00:48:19
the pick on Amazon but they're one of
00:48:21
many corporations that ought to be
00:48:22
picked on when it comes to federal taxes
00:48:25
right yeah Berkshire doesn't have an
00:48:27
Irish subsidiary that they're running
00:48:30
their International sales through
00:48:32
exactly they're not storing huge amounts
00:48:34
of international profits overseas in no
00:48:37
or low income tax countries they're
00:48:40
paying their fair share so as he likes
00:48:42
to say every Berkshire shareholder can
00:48:44
say I gave it the office exactly when it
00:48:47
comes to federal income tax payments and
00:48:49
then I like also there's a section we
00:48:51
won't get into details here but there's
00:48:52
a section of essentially bulleti quotes
00:48:55
from Charlie yeah he he pulled some
00:48:59
quotes from it must have been a podcast
00:49:00
that Charlie Munger on it was not the
00:49:02
best interest podcast I will say that
00:49:04
Charlie merer has not been on the best
00:49:05
interest we're working on Charlie
00:49:07
getting Charlie on the podcast here but
00:49:08
there's a really good list of quotes for
00:49:10
people who like lists of little py
00:49:12
quotes that I recommend folks read as
00:49:14
well other than that Rob any other
00:49:16
thoughts well let's make sure if we have
00:49:19
any interested investors or maybe even
00:49:22
seasoned Buffet
00:49:24
loisto address for Becky quick that's
00:49:28
the one that's specifically for
00:49:30
questions at the annual shareholder
00:49:32
meeting and Jesse I'm going to put you
00:49:33
on the spot with the question so
00:49:36
birkshire Hathaway has a very broad
00:49:38
array of consumer products businesses
00:49:41
we've talked about for example American
00:49:44
Express apple and cocacola some of the
00:49:46
large stocks they hold as well of all of
00:49:49
the Burkshire wholly owned companies and
00:49:55
equity ities that they own what would
00:49:56
you say would be your one favorite
00:49:59
Berkshire Hathaway related product to
00:50:01
consume just as a human just as a person
00:50:05
I've never actually had them but it's on
00:50:07
my to-do list I've never had a seiz
00:50:09
candy oh so Berkshire right you know
00:50:13
listeners might not know this especially
00:50:14
if you're in New York where Seas candy
00:50:17
doesn't really exist not so well known
00:50:19
but on the west coast Sees Candy is a
00:50:21
very well-known brand of candy stores
00:50:24
that's wholly owned by Burkshire holy
00:50:26
owned yeah so I got to think that c
00:50:28
candy has to be up there at the top SE
00:50:30
candy is absolutely fantastic we've used
00:50:33
it from our office as client gifts on a
00:50:36
number of occasions around holiday time
00:50:39
that's a great answer how about you what
00:50:41
what's what would be your favorite
00:50:42
Burkshire product o that's a tough one
00:50:45
so there are a lot of heavy
00:50:48
contenders C's candy would be high up
00:50:51
there Berkshire wholly owns Dairy Queen
00:50:54
oo and since they did open up that
00:50:57
location a number of years ago in
00:50:59
Henrietta for those in the Rochester New
00:51:01
York area where Jesse and I live the
00:51:03
cheese curds are fantastic the blizzards
00:51:06
are fantastic and the I do love their
00:51:09
ice cream cakes as well however for me
00:51:11
the gold medal would have to go to
00:51:14
Brooks running shoes another wholly
00:51:17
owned birkshire hathway company and the
00:51:20
reason that I like Brooks running shoes
00:51:22
are that more so than Dairy Queen and
00:51:25
se's they're really good for me when I
00:51:27
use them they're exceptionally durable
00:51:30
and particularly as a runner that's I
00:51:32
don't want to date myself too much but
00:51:34
I'll say I'm well north of 40 they treat
00:51:37
my feet and my body very very well so I
00:51:40
would say Brooks running shoes would
00:51:42
take the gold medal as far as birkshire
00:51:44
related products but there are many many
00:51:46
fine ones awesome Rob thank you for
00:51:49
sitting down with us on the best
00:51:50
interest podcast this has been fun Jesse
00:51:52
thank
00:51:54
you
00:51:55
thanks for tuning in to this episode of
00:51:57
the best interest podcast if you have a
00:52:00
question for Jesse to answer on a future
00:52:01
episode send him an email at Jesse
00:52:04
bestin interest. blog again that's Jesse
00:52:08
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00:52:11
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00:52:17
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