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Trump is now calling it a feelout meeting, which sounds kind of creepy. A little gross. Yeah. Yeah. A little Epsteiny.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser. Welcome back
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to Scott August.
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And while Scott is off gallivanting who knows where, I have yet another brilliant co-host joining me, David
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Remnik, editor of The New Yorker and host of the New Yorker Radio Hour. He's a podcaster now. David, welcome.
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Oh, it's great to be here, Cara. Since we've known each other for about 242 years, 42 years at our old alma mater, the
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Washington Post. How is it going? What how's the New Yorker going? We're doing okay. Knock there's wood
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here so I can knock on it. But editorially we're doing great and you know despite everything I mean be frank
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um we're doing okay. Yeah. Business is okay. Yeah. Are you are you going to be in the devil war product too?
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I am not. Okay. I'm just asking. I am not. I in if if I can reveal this.
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I got a phone call to be an extra in it and I decided maybe they're it's better
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to watch the film than Oh, really? Interesting. You don't want to wear nice clothes and everything else. Do you get to keep it?
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I don't think so. All right, then forget it. You'd be playing David Remnick. So, whatever David Renick, think of better things to play.
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What is David Remnick's fashion sense? Does anyone else You're looking at it. You're looking at it.
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You're looking at it. If you had to name the style, what would it be? I think it would be late middleage
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slouchy. Middle like cool dad. G cool. Not even cool dad. Just dad or
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you know awaiting awaiting scessence.
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You're wearing a Guinness t-shirt. I could easily work I could easily rock that. Oh, yes I am. I don't ever I have so
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many t-shirts I don't even know what I'm wearing. I like to send messages with my t-shirts sometimes. What are you telling me now with a
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Guinness drunk in the morning? A clean one. I almost wore the my old Twitter t-shirt actually uh because I'm
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I don't like accent, but I have the I have one of the original Twitter t-shirts. You have a Twitter t-shirt? I have a Twitter. I still have the
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t-shirt that I was wearing. Uhhuh. In July of 1998 with Leon Russell on it.
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And I was I was came into work to write a piece. Uhhuh. Tina Brown had told us the day before
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that she was leaving The New Yorker. And I came to work the next day in a Leon Russell t-shirt that even then had
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some holes in it. Some hole problems. Okay. And I was called to in to see sign new house, the owner of Nest.
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For what reason? I had no idea. And that was Destiny. Oh wow. What did he say? Anything about your outfit? Not very
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condandy nest. Your your cafeteria upsets me every time I go there because I feel like a homeless person or something. Like I look like Hi, I'd like
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some free food and then everyone's eating tiny little things. It's all about Yeah. Egg whites. Egg whites. Yeah. Anyway, we have so
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much talk about just David has been a long When was that 19? What year did you join? You said 19. It was the last
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century. The New Yorker. Yeah. I left the Washington Post. I'd been in Moscow and
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came home write wrote a book for took me a year and then in 1992 Tina Brown
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became the editor of the New Yorker and asked me to come be a writer there and I was thrilled.
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Yeah. And you became editor in six years later something like that. Yeah. So it's a long time.
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Yeah. Yeah. Are you going to outlast Anna just Well, she started before I did.
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I know. I know. But you know it'll be a fight. I have to tell you, my relationship with her, which is long-standing, and I don't
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think anybody would mistake me for her or vice versa. We get along terrifically well, she's she's actually
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very sharp, incredibly smart. Yeah. As a business person and and obviously
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as a as an editor. And I I remember asking what makes Anna Winter
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a great editor and this person said she knows what she wants. And I it it was
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actually the scales fell from my eyes because I think editors who don't know
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what they want, right? Confuse everybody and make everybody else crazy.
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Oh, that's interesting. Did you Did you use that Do you feel that way, Cara? I mean, I I wasn't much of an editor. I was I I
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mean, I was cuz I ran the thing, but I I guess I do. I did know what I wanted. I did. I wanted people to Yes. when I
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started running all things D. Yes. I wanted them to tell you what they actually were telling each other. It doesn't mean you're not filled with
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uncertainty or bound to make mistakes, but you do have to make a call at a certain point.
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Right. One of the things Tina Brown speaking Tan told me he says you you can teach someone how to write, but you can't teach them how to see like in
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terms of getting the stuff that you need to report on. I couldn't I couldn't agree more. you you know you you go out into the world.
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You go to the Middle East or New York City and you're going to write a quote unquote story
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and you feel like one of those quarterbacks in a video game that a lot of commotion is happening in the field
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of life in front of your eyes and finding a way to locate a story that's
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both honest, accurate, depending on the circumstances, entertaining or serious.
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That is a skill. It is what to see. I can't teach you what to see. Yeah, that's what it was. Which I thought was
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a very, very cany actual. He's also a cany editor, as are you. Um, so I want to ask you about your latest piece in
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The New Yorker called The Politics of Fear. It's very serious. Speaking of not entertaining, but it is, it's beautifully written. It's all about
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Donald Trump's long lifelong bullying tactics. You write specifically about the us versus them mentality and that
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he's using in his second term to intimidate people and bend them to his will. And you call his cabinet a quivering collection of naysayers. Nice.
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Well done. You look at Pam Bondi. Yeah, I know. I know. But naysayers. I just like the word. Um though you do uh
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you do say cartoon bullies do not inevitably prevail. Um talk you say push
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back like the Southpar creators, but talk about how well it's worked.
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Actually, it may not be effective, but it's worked well. You know what? Maybe I'm telling trying to gird my own
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loins there when I say that to myself. Yeah. and to the reader because you if
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you're being honest with yourself, horrible things do happen. System democratic systems have
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disintegrated under under pressure historically. So maybe I'm being only
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threequarters honest there, but I don't think it's inevitable. I don't think it's inevitable that
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the project that Donald Trump has set out on, which I think at its heart is is authoritarian and anti-ruule of law and
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all the other things that you discuss on this show quite a lot. Mhm. I don't think it's inevitable that it
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prevails. Is it has it been corrosive? You bet. Has he won lots of victories? You bet. Has he intimidated
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all kinds of institutions, including our own business? Um, with with terrible
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consequences. That has all happened. And I guess it's important on all kinds of media, all kinds of
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circumstances to rally people's spirits as best as you can. I'm not deluded that
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a common piece in the New Yorker is suddenly going to cause um truth, justice, and the American way to
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prevail. But I look at the place where you and I worked. The Washington Post. The Washington Post. I I was there for
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10 years as a as a young guy. Me, too. I was a young guy, too.
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And I'm watching this drama with a broken heart. Mhm. With a broken heart. The idea that the
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Washington Post was not just mutable Mhm. but that could be undermined to this
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degree so that so much of its talent runs screaming from the from the building.
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um to see a gazillionaire like um Bezos
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do the right thing when he first had the Washington Post and then turn tail Mhm.
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is is really chilling. I have an interest I mean I don't think he did much of anything. He kind of left
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it alone which is one of the problems. They didn't do anything post Trump. It do no harm, right? It's like being a
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doctor. Yes. Yes. I wouldn't call him particularly like he said a lot of tech stuff but I don't think he was I mean he
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brought Fred Ryan kind of like sailed along under the Trump thing this Fred Ryan might not have been the most
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perhaps inspiring leader on the business side and there was all kinds of things that you they could have done better I
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guess but Marty Baron as an editor had the same long leash as the editors
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of the New York Times and all the places that were doing their job well in the first Trump administration including our
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place. Can I ask you I I think about someone's asked me why is he doing it? What's the point that I I I have not
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answered that question. I'm not sure. I think he was like that before because I've I've never particularly liked him.
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I think he's tough and aggressive and is he tough? Yes, he's not a nice I never thought he
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was a nice person. So, I don't mean nice person. I mean the ability to say look um I have power too.
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I I can stand up to this and he has made a decision for I I think business
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reasons first and foremost. Look, the Washington Post is hardly his biggest business.
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It's his smallest. I don't think he really likes journalists. That was always my my experience with
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you ask yourself why buy it? I don't know. That's the part. I think he got guilted into it by Mrs. Graham
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and he thought it was interest. I think his ex-wife was interested in it too. and she's very she's a very she's
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distinguished herself since like with her giving and everything else. I think she she he was on not under her
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influence. I wouldn't say that he was in that world and then now he's in a different world that's let's take over
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Venice and be very performative in our outfits. You know, I think that's what he was actually like versus what he he
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was cosplaying like friend of liberty kind of guy before. I don't I think before was not what he was like.
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So it's not it's not a lack of self-awareness. I think he's doing but I but what I want to understand at least
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for being there is he's not even he's not even being bullied in this case. He just is doing it right. He's he's
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anticipating bullying or wants more of the space game or whatever it happens to be. But I I I want like what's the
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point? What where's the endgame here? Because I can tell you the people that have left I I hear from all of them
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every day. There's so many more leaving. And so how do you run an instit like maybe that's the point to hollow it out
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to fill it with who you want? I don't know. I I just if you have any thoughts I don't I don't think he cares that much. Number
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one, uh Don Graham and Katherine Graham for whatever I think there was always an
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illusion that somehow these were lefties that that that actually is not the case.
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Katherryn Graham was great friends with Nancy Reagan. She was an establishmentarian. But when the push came to shove to do the right thing on
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the Pentagon papers, on Watergate, and much smaller decisions along the way,
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they did the right thing. And they made the staff feel, and I'm not talking just about star reporters and editors. I'm
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talking about people in the press room. They felt like they were part of something, part of something important,
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not just an instrument of a billionaire's a multi multi-billionaires, um, a power complex. Yeah, I I I it's
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inexplicable at this point because now it's just like suicidal it feels. But one of the one of the things you say quivering collection of yaysayers at the
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Trump like the tech people have become naysayers. You saw Tim Cook do this the other day with with the golden the
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golden statue. What the hell was that? I don't know. I can't even write him. I was like, are you [ __ ] kidding? But I
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get it. I get it. He wants no tariffs. He wants to have a tariff relief or something like that. Man, you get one chance on this earth.
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I I agree. had someone say that. Yeah. Well, shareholders is his is his goal. Shareholders, that's all he cares about.
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I know. Great. But when you say uh talk about the the Trump cabinet, because it's particularly
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bending. I don't think you they even have to bend. They've bent. They started off bent. I I the first Trump cabinet in
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the first term was not my idea of the my politics or obviously but these were
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these were kind of establish establishmentarians from the business world in defense in intelligence and the
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rest. They were, by the way, not absolutely top rate, uh, all of them.
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Mhm. But they had some sense of what too far was. They had some sense along the way
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of limits, of the law, uh, of
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what is just shame. Shame is a good word. Mhm. I don't see many people in this cabinet
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who are possessed of shame. Mhm. Or a sense of what's what a limit is.
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When you look at the press secretary, there's nothing she will not say. Mhm. When you look at the attorney general,
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there's no limit she will not break. Her client is not the law. Her client is the
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president of the United States. She's the personal lawyer. She's behaving as if she's the personal lawyer for the president of the United States. That is
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that is an immense difference. You know, you could argue that maybe John Mitchell did the same when he was
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you could uh under Nixon, but here it's across the board. And also there's a a competency
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problem. Pete Hagth, would you hire him to run a grocery
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store? I wouldn't hire him to watch my kids. I wouldn't. Well, yeah. Well, you could and you could say that about a
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lot of people in the White House and in the federal in the writing of this that you thought, okay,
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possibly good or possibly I mean, Marco, you Rubio was considered competent by
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many before, but now everyone I who was close with him is like, we don't understand what happened to this person.
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Well, Marco Rubio seems to have been ambition, I I think just kind of put in a corner.
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I mean, he does things, but he knows his limits. Listen, look, remember, Marco Rubio was a guy who was insulted
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so many times in in the 2015 2016 presidential race.
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Mhm. I don't know how at what reach of one's character, you can say, you know what, that's just
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between friends. Now, I'll be the secretary of state and the national security adviser. It's a signal to Trump that I will do
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anything you ask without limits, right? And that's not what these people in those jobs are supposed to do.
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How does push back become a larger and more successful moment? It can be South Park. That's certainly satire is often a
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way that happens. Very funny, very tough satire. Um you see it a lot from comedy.
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Um and you see it I've just got Chris Ice Gruber's uh who's the head of Princeton's book. Tough book like he's
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writing, you know, pushing back. You see it in different law firms. You see it in different reporters certainly. How do
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you make that larger? I think people, regular people, you see when you see these videos of people on the street
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stopping ICE from arresting people, you see it there. It's it's civil society in in various
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forms. It it can't be underestimated, but it isn't absolutely everything. I
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mean, finally, we have a Congress that's completely in its majority obedient to a
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president who is by instinct an authoritarian and a court that is um
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suspect in many ways as well. So, finally, political power can be influenced by and maybe limited by civil
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society and it's essential, you know, it's exactly what Russia does not have. CI civil society has been all but
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crushed in with very very limited uh corners of civil society still exist in
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today's Russia. It's it's infantessimal. We still have that and if we squander it
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uh whether it's this you know managing partner of a law firm or university
00:16:07
president or boards of trustees of universities if we keep squandering it
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the picture will get worse and worse and worse. I and and people seem to be
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changing their minds too. Look at Harvard University. Mhm. Harvard University seemed to be standing
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up. Mhm. And they had all the money in the world to do so. Now it looks as if they're going to make
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a deal. Mhm. And you can say, well, I don't blame them. You know, would they be losing all
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their research money, right? And and and I I I get it. These are complicated
00:16:41
positions. Otherwise, they wouldn't be moral quandries in the first place. But if we keep backing up, bending down,
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you use whatever metaphor you like. Um this the the sum total of that will be
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the gradual and then accelerating eraser of civil society. Civil society. Yeah. Well, speaking of
00:17:00
Russia, we got a lot to get to today, but I want to move to to several stories on the politics of fear on full display.
00:17:06
Uh so, let's get to it. Trump and Putin are set to meet in Alaska this week for a summit. You can see Russia from
00:17:12
Alaska. I don't know if you know that. According to Sarah Palin, as Trump pushes for the end to the Russia Ukraine
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war, after announcing the summit, Trump said there will be some swapping of territories to the betterment of both
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very Chamberlinesesque. Ukraine's President Zalinski, who's not attending the summit as of this recording, called
00:17:30
decisions made without Ukraine decisions against peace. European leaders are backing Zalinski, saying that Ukraine
00:17:36
and Europe security must remain a top priority. and Trump just said a little while ago uh that the next meeting will
00:17:42
be him, Putin, and Zalinski. So, talk a little bit about this uh Trump is now
00:17:47
calling it a feelout meeting, which sounds kind of creepy. A little gross. Yeah. Yeah. A little Epsteiny. Um and what
00:17:53
realistically is going to I had to going to come out of it. You wrote this back in 2022 ahead of Russia invading
00:18:00
invading Ukraine. Few leaders have leveraged inscrutability the way Putin has, but his general imperative is
00:18:05
obvious. the preservation of power. Talk a little bit about this summit, this feel out situation.
00:18:11
Well, it's more than just the preservation of power. It is the resurrection
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of Russian supremacy in as much of the old Soviet Union as can be mustered.
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Not because of communism. Communism is, you know, went out the door even before the fall of the Soviet Union. But I mean
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just in terms of great power relations, um I Trump is I don't know if this is
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news um I don't know if it'll require a flash across our phones but is is a
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pretty inscrable person and has changes his mind and his temperament from hour to hour. So the
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spectacle of his berating Zalinski in in the Oval Office was one of the most
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depressing moments of the past six months. It was just inc. It was the opposite of
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what an American president should be should be doing to a leader like Zilinski who's been nothing but brave
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and tireless and an advocate for his people and and and incredibly shrewd
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and he just sold him out. Then he seemed to and then lo and behold, Russia kept
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kept up its attacks on doing what it does best. doing what it does best and
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killing lots and lots of people and destroying lots and lots of Ukrainian infrastructure. And lo and behold, Trump
00:19:35
said, "I I'm this guy is is is bullshitting me," meaning Putin.
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So, who knows? I I think it's if if we ascribe to Trump some sort of uh that
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he's talally or metic and has some sort of grand strategy and all along he's
00:19:53
thinking ahead. Metick and Trump don't go together. I'll go for it. Or or anybody else possessed of a of a a
00:20:01
strategic mind. Then you're then you're kidding yourself. Now we're showing off our college. Whatever. I've just exhausted it.
00:20:07
Yeah. Exactly. Me too. So the other truth though is that Putin has
00:20:14
lost a lot. This adventure has lost him 1 million Russian casualties, deaths and and and
00:20:23
people wounded combined. Mhm. It has expanded NATO, which is exactly what he didn't want in his northern
00:20:31
northwestern region. Um it's isolated Russia and Russians.
00:20:38
Russian life is not better. Economic life is more perilous, although they've survived better than one would have
00:20:44
thought. Um, so this was this adventure is is is not great. Is not great. Um,
00:20:51
now he's gained some territory about 20% of Ukrainian territory, Crimea and and eastern Ukraine. And he wants to hold on
00:20:57
to it as much as possible. This is a Donbas region, correct? Yeah. I think he'd like to call it a
00:21:03
day, but with maximal gains, so he can come back and declare a great victory and have lots of parades.
00:21:08
The question is, is the United States going to let him do that? So,
00:21:14
is well, I think we'll see. What are you looking for from this meeting? Besides a lot of performative
00:21:21
nonsense, I don't think it's performative nonsense. I think you need some clarity from from Donald Trump. It may be asking
00:21:28
too much. Mhm. Some sense of that Russia cannot just have what it
00:21:34
wants. That you and also Russia has lost Ukraine. It may have gained territory in
00:21:40
the east. It may have gained Crimea maybe for the foreseeable future,
00:21:47
which it took in 2014. But if you think Ukrainians
00:21:53
are now more sympathetic to Russia, right, that want to be part of Russia and its sphere of influence, you're crazy,
00:22:00
right? They want to be part of Europe. They want to be part of Europe even more intensely than ever.
00:22:05
So what what should he do here? If you if Trump listened to everything you said to David, what should I say exactly?
00:22:10
What would you what would you think the best thing should Zalinski be there from the start or
00:22:16
Well, there needs to be a process in which Zilinski and Putin and Europe and
00:22:23
the United States are involved. It cannot be a situation in which Trump in
00:22:29
all his bluster and weakness is alone in a room to the end with with Vladimir
00:22:35
Putin. If this meeting sets off a process that becomes one that's that's wider,
00:22:42
I I don't think Zilinski is going to get back everything he wants. This this that's which is a horrific tragedy, but
00:22:49
a reality. Um but for if Trump goes to
00:22:54
Alaska and just sees everything, um Zilinski will be in a horrific shape
00:23:02
and we will have committed a strategic and moral blunder uh the likes of which we haven't
00:23:09
seen for quite some time. Do you have any guesses of which way we're that's going to go and where where is Europe? I mean Europe's been
00:23:16
obviously it is you know it's complicated but Europe is much more stalwart uh in in
00:23:22
Zilinsk's corner without question. So what is it here? Because after all this will affect them.
00:23:28
Who? Right. Exactly. Who who's who's threatened more than Europe, right? You know, if you're sitting in
00:23:34
Estonia, Poland, Lithuania, um you're watching this a lot more
00:23:40
carefully necessarily than you were if you're in New York or North Dakota or California.
00:23:45
Do you think Putin would do that at this point? Does he have a does he have a sell by date at all? I think the the one
00:23:53
provided by God. Oh, well, mortality. You know how long Lennon is still
00:23:59
sitting there? Well, Lenon died of a stroke. I haven't saw that. Pretty un
00:24:06
Well, I don't think Putin is going to be followed by um the living incarnation of Noni, though. I mean, he has set up a
00:24:13
system that's both personalist and highly highly highly nationalist and
00:24:19
and authoritarian. And I don't think Unless you're a fantasist, you'll suddenly revert to the flux of 199192.
00:24:27
Right. Right. Where is Boris Yeltson when you need him? Well, he there was a there's a Boris
00:24:33
Yeltson uh is not a pure picture either. No. Um Boris Yeltson um I guess you could
00:24:41
say he peaked in in August of 1991 with his strength of standing up to the coup. So you're going to be watching what
00:24:47
would be give give everybody one sign of good or bad if if if we don't get a repeat
00:24:54
of Trump coming out as he did in Helsinki years ago
00:25:00
and say I believe Putin I don't believe my own intelligence agencies. You remember that incident? Yes. If we don't
00:25:05
get a repeat of the Oval Office meeting with Zilinski where he just humiliated
00:25:10
him and he went out of his way to do so with the help of JD Vance. Mhm. Then we'd have to count it as a small
00:25:16
victory. In other words, if he doesn't entirely sell out Ukraine, right,
00:25:22
that would be nice. Yeah. Well, he wants that Nobel Prize, doesn't he? He's German. So, we'll see
00:25:27
if he listen if he settles the thing mathematics with a motic of like not losing everything he could possibly get
00:25:33
it. Uh, okay. David, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Trump cracks down on DC. Support for this show comes
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00:26:39
David, we're back with more news. Another thing about the politics of fear. President Trump says the police department in DC will be placed under
00:26:44
federal control because of quote totally out of control crime. Let me tell you, as a citizen of the District of
00:26:49
Columbia, things are not totally out of control here. It's actually a very safe city and it's a wonderful place to live.
00:26:55
The US military is preparing to activate several hundred National Guard troops in the city on Monday as we tape. Let's
00:27:00
listen to a clip of this speech on the matter this morning. On Monday morning, our capital city has been overtaken by
00:27:06
violent gangs and bloodthirsty criminals, roving mobs of wild youth, drugged out maniacs and homeless people.
00:27:14
And we're not going to let it happen anymore. We're not going to take it. Actually, all those people work at the White House. But uh but I got to tell
00:27:22
you there's I anyone who lives in DC is like what are you talking about? Crime is down. Um uh and meanwhile he's trying
00:27:29
we'll get to marijuana in a minute. But what do you what do you take for this? He he did it in in California the
00:27:35
governor resisted uh but still he did it. Um in DC is under a really unusual
00:27:40
situation where the government can't take over the city or has much more purview over the city including the old
00:27:46
elected officials. Sorry, this is the oldest tactic authoritarians have. Drugged out maniacs or, you know,
00:27:53
robbing your houses and etc., etc., etc. Fear. Yeah. Politics of fear.
00:27:58
Yeah. And and then he wants to show that in his own backyard it's a it's a swamp and
00:28:04
he's going to clean it up. This is a repeat of LA in some way, right? where the governor and the mayor, I think they
00:28:13
Karen Bass in a in a way, the mayor of Los Angeles, after having a rough time during the
00:28:19
wildfires, um I think reasserted her
00:28:25
reputation and her authority by pointing out very clearly in various
00:28:30
interviews and news conferences. We had a interview with her in the New York radio Hour that was very good and and
00:28:36
she made it very plain that this was this was just absolute
00:28:42
[ __ ] and a manipulation by the federal government in the name of Donald
00:28:47
Trump to make it seem like drug addled maniacs in this case immigrants um were
00:28:54
just running roughshot over the ability of the LAPD right
00:29:00
to control the situation. in an isolated spot in downtown LA. Yeah, there was a small spot there. Listen,
00:29:06
I have to think and and also to cable television didn't help by 24 hours a day focusing its camera on
00:29:12
one burning car. I'm not saying that, you know, violence in the streets is a
00:29:18
great thing. Mhm. But a sense of what what it actually was and it's and it's
00:29:24
what was reality and what was exaggerated and the ability of this president to manipulate that situation.
00:29:31
Why DC? Obviously the Epstein stuff is is another distraction from the Epstein stuff. Um but what can the mayor do
00:29:37
here? Because at one point, remember after Trump really had those troops downtown with the Bible, the whole
00:29:43
thing. Um you know, they painted the plaza. They painted the plaza right near the White House to mock him. Uh she has
00:29:51
since gotten rid of that to try to please him and and and work with the Trump administration. And now, of
00:29:56
course, this is what she's getting, right? This is what cooperation yields you. Um why and of course it started
00:30:03
with this guy named Big Balls who worked for Elon Musk. This whole thing is so we are in a simulation David just so you
00:30:08
know this is none of this is real. Um this guy named Big Balls. This kid was working for Elon Musk. He got beaten up.
00:30:14
I'm sorry Big Balls. That's really terrible thing to happen to you. But you know living in this city the crime is
00:30:21
down. All kinds of major crimes are done. It's a very safe city. Um, same thing with San Francisco is now on the
00:30:27
upswing and everything's looking great and everything else. So, trying to paint it as this, you know,
00:30:32
we have this in New York City and it's coming for you. We'll talk about that in a second.
00:30:37
And by the way, Andrew Cuomo, his rhetoric is participating in this,
00:30:43
right? Exactly. So, I'm going to get to him in a second. So, the boxer, um, what
00:30:48
what do you do here as what what could happen here? You've been in Russia. You've been in lots of of hot spots like
00:30:55
this of authoritarian rule. Is this just posturing just so he can make a speech and get the the things away from what's
00:31:02
really happening in this country or what's the danger here? Like as a citizen, I'm I'm like disturbed that
00:31:09
there would be US military on a street when I whenever I'm in a country where that's the case, I'm like I don't like
00:31:14
this country so much. I've arrived in a banana republic. Right. Exactly. Well, one thing traditionally that's been in the
00:31:20
authoritarian playbook is not just the use of troops, but it's the
00:31:26
taking e either staging or taking an incident in which there is a clash and
00:31:34
using that as an excuse for a crackdown that's even greater. This I you saw this
00:31:40
in the Soviet Union. You you've seen it all over the world. you know that something will be I remember in
00:31:46
Lithuania for example was still Soviet times it troops went in where they were
00:31:53
not needed because there were demonstrations there were nationalist demonstrations and the next thing you know 13 people
00:31:59
were dead and the crackdown became more and and the central authorities particularly
00:32:05
in that case the KGB were delighted delighted they exploited it they staged
00:32:11
it and the whole thing now how sophisticated um and what kind of forethought is going into this, I don't
00:32:18
know. I I I couldn't say because I'm not in those rooms,
00:32:24
but I I dare say that we'll find out soon enough. I think the more adjectives they use,
00:32:29
the stupider it is. Violent crimes, bloodthirsty criminals, roving mobs of wild youth, drugged out maniacs, and and
00:32:35
and homeless. Look, things will always happen in cities that are terrible. You know, it is a bad thing that Big Balls or
00:32:41
whatever his real name is gets beaten up. It is a horrible thing when there's a murder
00:32:47
uh in the Bronx or in whatever part of the new of New York City. That's always
00:32:52
going to happen and it's never completely satisfying to say that the
00:32:57
statistics are down, right? Because one sentence is filled with life and
00:33:03
loss and bloodiness and the other feels cold and statistical, bureaucratic. I got it.
00:33:09
But in fact But in fact, it's a huge accomplishment in your city and mine.
00:33:16
That crime, violent crime is down. Mhm. And and you don't feel unsafe. I don't feel
00:33:22
unsafe in New York or DC. Um and I have felt unsafe in both places. Look, when I was a when I was a kid
00:33:27
applying for college, my parents I grew up in New Jersey. My parents said the one place I I couldn't apply was
00:33:33
Columbia. It was on 116th. And to them, sitting in suburban New Jersey, it just seemed very dangerous. In probably the
00:33:38
70s, it it wasn't so great. But I think it would have been fine if I had gone. But and um now nobody would dream of saying
00:33:46
that about Columbia. They have other things to say about Columbia, but not that. Yeah. You know what's interesting is that there was a shooting in Montana.
00:33:52
Should he send the national troops there? I just It's like it doesn't matter. It's the same. It's just such
00:33:57
No, but we know what it's about. And but his ability to change the subject,
00:34:03
as you said, Cara, is is is amazing. You know, three weeks ago, the Epstein situation was going to be,
00:34:10
you know, yet another end of Donald Trump. I think the Epstein situation still has
00:34:15
legs. That's my feeling. I do. What What will take place that will If you go to you, if you go to the um
00:34:23
places I read on the internet with the MAGA people, it illuminates them. It still does. And I don't think they've
00:34:29
let Donald Trump I think they're trying to let Donald Trump off the hook, but they're still he's trying to sideline it
00:34:35
and that it will not be that particular thing. But what could they find out that they don't know already that would turn them
00:34:42
against Trump? Oh, I don't think they would turn against Trump still. 47% of Republicans would still vote for Trump even if he
00:34:48
was implicated in Epstein's activities, which is disturbing. So, I don't know. I
00:34:54
think I think that's something like that could happen. I think something like that could this this is part of the whole too this
00:35:00
whole business that you know the phenomenon that seems to stun liberals all the time that
00:35:06
evangelicals will vote for Donald Trump even though they know x y and z about his character
00:35:12
that it's quote and this is the this is the phrase that's always used in in Washington talk that it's baked in
00:35:18
uh that they know that about Trump where if they heard it about say Obama they'd be shocked shocked shocked and
00:35:25
and and uh shield peeled their eyes. Yeah, it's true. But he is going to going to he's may take marijuana
00:35:31
reportedly considering reccasting marijuana as a less dangerous drug after companies in the industry have donated millions to his political groups. That's
00:35:38
fine. That one I'm okay. I'm fine. I'm going to move on from that. So, last
00:35:43
thing on this segment, Governor Greg Abbott says the redistricting fight in Texas could literally last years as he
00:35:49
defends his push to arrest Democrats who fled the state to block GOP efforts. I think they popped up in California this
00:35:55
week. Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, by the way, please Google Ken Paxton
00:36:00
divorce, has also asked the state supreme court to remove room 13 of those Democrats from office as redistricing
00:36:06
battles spread across the country. California Governor Gavin Newsome is pushing for a special election to get a
00:36:11
new House map approved by 2026. And Trump is now calling for a new census that excludes undocumented immigrants, a
00:36:17
move he's tried before. A new census would reshape congressional maps and impact federal, state, and local
00:36:22
fundings if it were to happen. talk a little bit about redistricting. This is just it's nothing redistricting is is nothing
00:36:29
new and it's something that's look Barack Obama's district as a state
00:36:34
senator as a state senator in Illinois was a absurdity. You know, it kind of a little
00:36:41
strip along the the north side and it kind of came down and then went into Hyde Park. And these congressional
00:36:48
districts historically have been shaped in ways that um are congruent with all
00:36:54
kinds of political interests. Um early on racism and to this day racism and uh
00:37:01
anxiety about uh about so many other subjects. So both parties and American
00:37:07
politics has been given to redistricting for for less than high motives for a
00:37:12
very long time. But as usual in the Trump administration, they're they're taking it to its very heights.
00:37:19
To do this in the way they're doing this, this this is not something that has clear precedent that I can see.
00:37:26
Yeah. No, he's doing it because he thinks he's going to lose the house. Lose the house and then it's over. Then it is kind of game over for him in many
00:37:32
ways. he'll just spend his time, you know, trying hard to do executive orders that won't be Well, I think this was the illusion of
00:37:38
some people on in the Democratic party that after an initial explosion of
00:37:43
activity and noise and all the rest that this term, like the last term, would see
00:37:49
him have his interest flag and maybe he's getting older and he play a lot more golf. But I think we have to admit
00:37:57
that in numerous ways, maybe too many to count, this term is not only much worse
00:38:03
than the first term, but the dark sophistication that he's gone about
00:38:09
so many things, some of them collapse like Doge um has been a surprise to a lot of
00:38:16
people. Yeah. No, he's a lively old man. He is. Do you ever go to my mom's assisted living is there's a guy there's a guy in
00:38:22
every assisted living home that's like this real real animated there's like the
00:38:28
Biden guy who's wheeling around who's actually a little more with it than he seems and then there's a Trump guy and
00:38:33
he's really crazy and really irritating and definitely like walks in the wall. It's it's not just the usual Trump
00:38:40
character that we've known for for so so many years. He's surrounded by people who where age isn't isn't an issue. Mhm.
00:38:47
Steven Miller is a young man. He is. And he is filled uh with um
00:38:54
all kinds of uh impulses. Mhm. And he is so far in a dark way good at
00:39:01
it. Right. He is absolutely. Is that is that the person you would focus most on? Would you consider him a quivering
00:39:07
yayser? I think that's a good question. No, I think he's he is an enactor. He he is
00:39:13
from what I understand especially in terms of domestic policy but not only he
00:39:18
is the most essential um figure in that building and in fact
00:39:25
what we learn from from that chat group that Jeff Goldberg was in invited on in
00:39:30
inadvertently that it wasn't the secretary of state or the defense secretary that was in charge of the
00:39:37
conversation. It was Stephen Miller Yeah. who brought things to a conclusion, who said, "Okay,
00:39:43
we've discussed this enough enough." President, very interesting. He was clearly the one
00:39:48
speaking in Trump's name. He was absolutely that's and Jeff pointed that out. It was clear, you know, Hexes was sort of performatively
00:39:55
saying playing the Secretary of Defense on television kind of thing like look I have some dates and times and stuff like
00:40:01
that. And he was surprised. Vance was quite against it, which was interesting to see that part of it.
00:40:07
But nobody cared. Nobody cared. cared in that conver came in and wiped this floor with everybody.
00:40:13
Um, so what is it a good idea for uh Gavin Newsome to do this or you know now
00:40:18
what a Republican governor in New Hampshire said absolutely not. I'm not going to redistrict even though she's
00:40:24
under pressure. You know this is the dilemma that stretches out to a lot of areas.
00:40:29
You I just had on our own podcast um a conversation between Ruth Marcus and
00:40:35
Jeannie Suk Gerson. They were talking about the Supreme Court and how it
00:40:41
should deal with certain things and the the the dilemma is do you answer in kind
00:40:47
in a way that feels extra legal or goes outside the bounds of normal politics
00:40:53
and that's the tough thing and I think Gavin Newsome is basically saying you know we can't afford to just let Trump
00:41:02
and the Trumpists do whatever they want and we have to answer in behind otherwise too much will be lost.
00:41:08
Um even though we know these tactics are ugly. Yeah.
00:41:13
You know California a lot better than I do. You think he has a shot in the end as a presidential candidate? Depends on the the atmosphere depends on
00:41:20
the 2026 elections if if he sort of wins and pushes Trump back. And yeah, I
00:41:26
suppose he could. Yeah, I suppose he could. He's got a lot of, you know, negatives, but yeah, I he's tall and I
00:41:31
think we're going to elect a tall, handsome white guy for sure, you know, as the president. But So, not a short handsome white guy. So,
00:41:37
Pete Buddha Judge? No. No. No. Why? I think because I think the gay thing is still a problem for many
00:41:43
people. I'm sorry. I I love I think he's terrific. I think he's incredibly well spoken. He's really thoughtful. Uh I
00:41:48
just don't Wes Moore is the other person I would just think is could be an interesting character. He's not He's not a white guy. So far as
00:41:54
I he's not, but he's he's so fantastic looking and he's got, you know, he's got just I think he's got a lot of
00:42:01
attributes. Um, you know, you look maybe it's someone from we don't know, David. I don't know. Maybe it's someone we
00:42:06
don't know. I have to say anyone who has any charm against JD Van if JD Vance is their thing. I find JD Vance charmless
00:42:13
and repellent to voters ultimately. The one thing though that gave me real pause is his performance in the vice
00:42:18
presidential debate was extremely skillful. Yeah, but on as president that's different. If he's the man, he's
00:42:24
not really the man. He did give a speech recently. I don't know if you you caught this at Claremont. I I I always listen to him.
00:42:31
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Yeah. In other words, he Trump is an instinctual authoritarian,
00:42:37
right? This guy JD Vance is a very sophisticated
00:42:42
nationalist authoritarian ideologist. I mean, he he is a different set of qualities.
00:42:49
He absolutely is. And we're going to be paying for the fact that his mama didn't love him enough for the rest of our lives if he wins. I'll tell you that.
00:42:54
That's the story of history. It's just that 100%. That mama didn't love him, didn't hug him. I think the
00:43:00
voters, most voters find him charmless. And the fact that South Park made him tattoo kind of said everything to me.
00:43:07
Plain. It's amazing that South Park, How long has South Park been on the air? 26 years. And that it still has the juice.
00:43:14
Well, it goes in and out. My kids love it. Have loved it since they were small kids. But yeah, it does. It has the
00:43:20
juice. You still have the juice, David. Oh, you're so sweet. You still have the You do. You actually do. Every now and then you come with a
00:43:26
story. I'm like, "H, look at that guy." Anyway, let's go on a quick break. When we come back, Quuomo comes after mom
00:43:32
Donnie and what he calls a heavyweight bout. Support for Pivot comes from another
00:43:38
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need to hear. From the branch in partnership with the 74 and Midas Touch, Where the Schools Went is out now
00:44:36
wherever you get your podcasts. David, we're back with more news in New
00:44:41
York City. without your home. Mayor in the mayoral race, Andrew Cuomo is targeting front runner Zoran Mandani in
00:44:47
a series of social media attacks, and I use that term broadly because they're really stupid. Um, Cuomo is now framing
00:44:53
the race as a heavyweight bout, which is what someone who still lives in the 1980s when Rocky was hot, would use.
00:45:00
Cuomo slammed Donnie for living in a rent stabilized apartment, calling him rich and saying he should move out. Cuomo, I'll note, Cuomo moved to the
00:45:07
city about a year ago and pays about $8,000 in rent. Uh, a New York Times also reported last week that Quan
00:45:12
recently spoke with Donald Trump about the mayoral race, though both men have denied that. It's very sad. I I I have to say there
00:45:19
he is proof positive that there is a such thing as a sell by debt. Yeah. Yeah. When you saw him in the debate, Manny
00:45:26
Cuomo, and I have never seen a clock cleaned so efficiently as Manny cleaned
00:45:35
Cuomo's clock. I he just Cuomo had lost it. This was a guy who really had prided
00:45:41
himself on a certain kind of uh I get things done. Tough guy.
00:45:46
Tough guy. But I'm your tough guy. That mode. Very different from his old man. Eye of the tiger. Very eye of the tiger.
00:45:53
Oh. And mom Donnie who's very young, right? And
00:45:58
and he just came in very cool, funny, engaged. You look we
00:46:05
there's all kinds of things we can discuss and argue and and and it's he's a fascinating figure.
00:46:11
But just on raw politics as a boxing match that was that was the kind of decision
00:46:18
where the you know you win by 10 points. You win every round. Um besides terrible boxing though using
00:46:25
that metaphor feels so dated at this moment. I don't know why. I bet the youngs are like what? Like yeah boxing is not exactly the center of
00:46:32
attention. We live in a in a very it's a young city. It's a city where certain
00:46:38
constituencies have been totally overlooked. We have in this city between 750,000 and a million Muslim voters.
00:46:45
Mhm. We have a city filled with young people
00:46:50
who are deeply depressed by national politics and see no hope in it and are
00:46:57
fed up with all kinds of versions of the familiar and feel that they've been they're they're not going to have the
00:47:04
kind of life care that you and I have been correct privileged to have. Um,
00:47:11
and so I I I think they look at somebody like Cuomo as just worn out and cynical
00:47:19
and and and and it matters. His ads and his social media are just very 20 years
00:47:25
ago. Eric Adams comes across as, you know, at this point not very Eric Adams over Cuomo at this
00:47:32
point. I can't believe I just said that. I understand. But right, but you also have this hilarious
00:47:38
phenomenon that Adams and Cuomo are waiting for one or the other to drop out. Right. Right.
00:47:43
Even though they're neck and neck in the polls. And I bet you that neither one of them do. And they No, Adam has a better chance against
00:47:49
Mumani. Actually, actually, if I had to like that that Adams has a better chance,
00:47:54
right? I think that's absolutely right. He could get still get a substantial African-American vote.
00:47:59
That's right. Um there might be some people who see mom Donnie as
00:48:06
um that comes from a privileged background no matter what the ethnic background is or some people feel
00:48:13
rightly or wrongly alienated by his views on the Middle East even though the mayor of New York very rarely
00:48:18
uh controls foreign policy. Um but they may feel alienated by that. But
00:48:24
I think mom is going to win, right? No, he's way up. But for people to know, right now the polls are showing
00:48:30
him doing very well. And we're forgetting Curtis Leewa, who I first covered as a young Washington Post reporter, and he lives up the street
00:48:36
from me, I think, in a studio apartment with about 15 cats and his wife. He's an odd he's an odd bird, but he's he's
00:48:43
getting some votes. He is actually, you know, actually, of all the people presenting, he's actually somewhat funny. And I'm like I
00:48:50
And he's himself. He's himself. And actually, some of the things he says, I'm like, that's a fair point. I I literally from him with the
00:48:56
hat and from when he used to he's not wearing the hat. He's giving up the hat. He He He's gives it up.
00:49:01
Oh, does he here and there cuz he wants to look, you know, mayoral. I think he should go with the hat now.
00:49:06
That's why we know who he is. Yeah, exactly. It's like Groucho without the mustache. Literally was like, "Okay, this is my
00:49:12
stack rank. Money silhoues,
00:49:17
whatever." Him, the hat guy. Adams Cuomo. Literally, that's how I go. And it's like, I cannot believe I'm
00:49:23
saying this. I I don't live in New York. Do you talk a little bit about mom Donniey's weaknesses though because I my
00:49:28
my son lives in New York has just recently left New York was at NYU. Uh love Mandami. So does my other older
00:49:34
son. Uh and it's not for you know he knows that some of the stuff is like he
00:49:42
can't do grocery stores necessarily, but he likes the idea that he's talking about it. He's not sure he can do he's
00:49:48
like well he's thinking about people's food. He's thinking about like he goes I don't know if he'll do it but everyone
00:49:53
else it costs us a fortune to live decently in New York City period. And so
00:49:59
forget the poor for a moment but to to live a middle class life on an income in
00:50:04
much of the rest of the country would seem quite comfortable is really really hard. And one of the truisms of politics
00:50:13
is parents want to know that their kids are going to live slightly better than them. And here the the the numbers are
00:50:19
the opposite for for a big part of the population. At first, Mam Donnie's
00:50:24
support seemed to be isolated in what's called, you know, the brownstone belt. You know, comfortable young creatives
00:50:33
who are uh whose politics are left and who are struggling to make it work in
00:50:43
Beds Die or Park Slope, which is wealthier, and and so on.
00:50:49
In fact, that's not the limitation. He's not limited to that vote. Um he has done
00:50:56
quite well on the west side of Manhattan and downtown and other in Queens. Um so
00:51:03
I think he's just going to rump. I think he's going to win by a lot. I think he's going to win by a lot and Cuomo not by a lot.
00:51:09
What's his biggest weakness if you were Cuomo and not living in the Rocky period, Rocky one period of the world?
00:51:16
What would you tell Cuomo to do? Like Well, there are three there are three areas of conversation. And I don't know
00:51:21
if they're weaknesses, but three areas of angles of attack that we've seen.
00:51:27
One is the false accusation that he's somehow an anti-semite. It's just really
00:51:34
nonsense. Is I there's no question that he's u pro Palestinian rights and that
00:51:39
was an energizing issue in his even in his college days.
00:51:45
uh and some of the vocabulary that comes along with that alienates some voters, some of them Jewish. That's one area.
00:51:52
The other area is he comes from a background where his father is a very distinguished Colombia professor and his
00:52:00
mother is a movie maker and they're while not wealthy in the New York sense,
00:52:05
uh they're wealthy and privileged in every sense elsewhere and certainly to the majority of New Yorkers. So there's
00:52:11
there's one thing like that. So he's, you know, the privileged kid, the left, that sort of thing. Yeah.
00:52:17
Then the third thing is, well, he can't do what he's promising. So he's talking about grocery stores. I
00:52:24
think maybe when it comes to grocery stores, what he's talking about is having some models of how this would
00:52:30
work. It's not like he's going to return us to the Soviet Union of empty state grocery stores in 1978.
00:52:37
and how you go about affecting rent
00:52:42
prices and limiting raises and when rent prices and how you have an effect on the
00:52:51
really radical income differences in New York City and elsewhere uh depends on
00:52:57
the state legislature as as Kathy Hokll has pointed out any
00:53:02
number of times and it's likely that he's certainly not going to win every every battle,
00:53:08
right? But what a lot of people see is that he and I hate to use the newagy,
00:53:13
he sees them. Mhm. In a way that, you know, Eric Adams is too weird to do.
00:53:20
And and Cuomo is past his sell by date. Pass his cell by date. Do you worry about Donald Trump coming in if he wins?
00:53:26
He's they're going to use it the win as something. Of course. Yeah, of course. the you know it it's it's
00:53:33
it's unpredictable but clearly Donald Trump sees himself as a New Yorker even though he's
00:53:38
mainly abandoned New York for for the delicious tax um comforts of of Florida.
00:53:45
Yeah. So he will come in you in some way or another. He's looking he came he's he's doing this in Washington.
00:53:51
Now to what degree and how much of it is a show and there to just prove that he can
00:53:57
do this with swagger like he's done to universities and any number of other institutions. It's hard to say.
00:54:02
Yeah. The battle for New York that was a movie with Kurt Russell. He plays Snake or Snake. He plays a guy named Snake
00:54:09
with a patch but he plays Snake. That's his name. I think his name is Snake. And he's New York becomes sort of a bad
00:54:15
place and then a rich guy's daughter gets plane crashes there and then he has to go in and get her.
00:54:20
Can Kurt Russell run for me? Trust me, you and your you and Esther watch it tonight. You'll thank me.
00:54:26
All right, David, one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay, David, uh, wrapping up, let's hear some
00:54:32
wins and fails. Why don't you go first? Can I be patriotic in my win? Sure, please. You can. David
00:54:38
Kirkpatrick, who came to this magazine first as a fact checker many years ago when I first got here
00:54:44
and then returned here from a career at the New York Times to be a writer at the New Yorker, has published this week a
00:54:50
huge piece in the New Yorker called The Number. Oh. And what it is is a meticulous,
00:54:55
fair-minded, non-jumping to conclusions accounting of how much money of how much money
00:55:04
Donald Trump and his family has made off of the president in six months. 2.5 billion. It's $3.5 billion, which is a lot in six
00:55:12
months. Yeah. And I will say that he's if
00:55:17
anything Kirkpatrick bends over backwards to be conservative as in his accounting.
00:55:23
Mhm. By nature and by the by what I can see in the reporting and the facteing. So I I think that's it's a win. It's a tragic
00:55:30
win because of what it's telling you. But there's that. Yeah. The grift. Do you have a win or should I go to
00:55:36
fail? No, go ahead. Go to fail. And and this is sentimental but also I think important. It's what we started
00:55:41
our conversation with. I think Jeff Bezos's behavior with the Washington Post, I don't care
00:55:47
how he gets married. He wants to take over, you know, the city of Rome or or Albania to get married. Um, as we say in
00:55:54
on my blog, Zyazant, you you know, fine. Maybe maybe that
00:56:02
pays a lot of catering bills and wonderful, but to take an an institution
00:56:07
and what we're discovering in recent years to our pain is that institutions are fragile. Mhm.
00:56:12
Things that seemed like they'd last forever and were a good thing in the in
00:56:17
their sum total are they're fragile. And to watch really earnest, good reporters
00:56:25
and editors have to live through this y is really painful. Not just because I I
00:56:30
worked there a million years ago, but it's a big deal to have the news outlet
00:56:36
in the capital of the country be put in this kind of deeply uncertain
00:56:42
position at at best. I'm glad to see that the Wall Street Journal in many ways has has has
00:56:47
shown itself up lately. Emma Tucker proves to be a terrific editor. Terrific.
00:56:52
Um, and that's good for competition with the Times and others, but to see this
00:56:58
happen to the Post is agree. Is on Jeff Bezos. And that's a fail. It's a real fail. I just It's a You
00:57:04
should buy it with me, David. He won't meet with me. He might meet with you. You're a white guy. But you got You got the dough. I'm the white guy.
00:57:11
Together, we can conquer world. The dough and the white guy. That's like a reality show. That would be such a
00:57:16
good Kurt Russell would play me. Who would play me? with a patch. Russell would also play me. Um,
00:57:22
all right. My my fail is uh I got to say the story in the New York Times. Mark
00:57:27
Zuckerberg was running a private school for his two daughters and a dozen other children out of his house in a compound in Palo Alto. He's bought 11 houses in
00:57:34
the area and it's in violation of city code. Um, meanwhile, a school he and his wife established for low-income families
00:57:40
in in East PaloAlto announced it would be shutting down in April because uh he stopped funding it. Uh I just the idea
00:57:47
of this private school for his children and a few other rich kids in the area or
00:57:52
rich friends or whatever is grotesque. These people are already they already go away from people and and and reality.
00:58:00
And now they're even further raising their children to do so to be out of they they should be in schools in
00:58:05
PaloAlto. They have excellent public schools in PaloAlto. Um and to do this is really I find it grotesque. Um, and
00:58:13
so to do this just in a high-handed way, he's already taken over great swaths of of this area. Now, Pel's always been
00:58:20
rich a rich place, but um he's he's grotescorized it in a way that's and and
00:58:26
um it's just icky that this is what he's doing with his children. Um kids should not be um sequestered like this. I find
00:58:34
I like that word grotescerized. Grattoceriz it's a word for our age. It is. It is grotesque. And speaking of
00:58:41
fantasies, um I the the the season finale of The Guilded Age was so good. I
00:58:47
can't Oh my god. Have you seen it yet? I I watched like an episode when it began. I haven't Oh, no. Stop. Stop. Just start with this
00:58:54
season. Start with this season. You'll pick it right up. It's Rich People. You know, this is a different version of Rich People. And there the the rare
00:59:01
there's Train Daddy who is who is Vanderbilt who's playing the character this No Exploding Vehicles.
00:59:08
Oh, it's the same guy who did Down Dabby. So, yes, there's things that happen. That guy, that guy. Um, and so,
00:59:16
uh, it's great. It's really great. The costumes are great. I got to say, Carrie [ __ ] who plays Mrs. Russell, Mrs.
00:59:22
Bertha Russell, is just fantastic. It's Billionaires I get behind. Like, I love
00:59:27
these billionaires. They're so fantastic and awful, but they're in a in the
00:59:32
greatest of American ways. And at one point she in the finale, I'm not going to give away stuff. Um, but uh she goes
00:59:40
uh she's letting divorced women into the balls. Like one woman says, you know, it's it's really important that we move
00:59:46
into the future. And the woman Carrie Coons, who's fantastic and deserves every Emmy in the book, goes, "This is
00:59:53
the future, and the future is America." Like, and it's so MAGA and it's like, it's so good.
00:59:58
All right, I'm sold. I am sold. And at the same time, they have their they've really doubled down. They have a
01:00:04
whole they're showing this sort of uh sort of upcoming black upper class and upper middle class in a really beautiful
01:00:10
way and they juxtapose these balls and just wonderful just really and the first
01:00:16
people thought it was the most low stakes show ever like they're worried about whether someone crosses a street
01:00:21
to go to a party. It's actually really it's turned into something very heartfelt. So fantastic fantastic finale
01:00:28
and I'm excited for season 4. Thank you very much. Yeah, I'm there. And and I wanted one thing is it's not a fail, but
01:00:35
Sarah Jessica Parker is going to finally do her final show this week of uh which is essentially Sex in the City uh
01:00:41
franchise. And I have to say pound-forpound and she doesn't weigh that much. She's given a lot. Speaking of New York City, you we can have all
01:00:48
your criticism of that show, but really well done over the many many many years and lots of I I personally like her a
01:00:54
lot. Me, too. Yeah. She's a lovely person. Um and good and it's been it's gotten really good the last. So, it's one more episode and
01:01:02
she deserves all the kudos, too. So, to both of those ladies, Bertha and S uh
01:01:08
SJP. Um, anyway, we want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business, tech, or whatever's on your
01:01:13
mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. And before we go, this
01:01:20
week and on with Cara Swisser, I spoke with Gary Ginsburg and Carol Radzo about
01:01:25
America's enduring fascination with JFK Jr., also a New Yorker uh before he died. Let's listen to a clip of Gary
01:01:31
Ginsburg, a former senior editor at George Magazine, talk about JFK Jr.'s political stance.
01:01:37
He had a vision about politics that I think is really important for today. He thought of himself as kind of a
01:01:43
postpartisan. He didn't believe in partisan politics. Even though he was a lifelong Democrat, his family embodied
01:01:49
the Democratic party, he really thought that effective policym would be done
01:01:54
through postpartisanship. As it turned out, he was wrong about that. But he was very pressing about that magazine in entertainment and
01:01:59
politics and celebrity. Uh really interesting is a series on on CNN that's really interesting and of course a
01:02:05
tragic uh early death of JFK Jr. Um but it's full of fantastic photos of JFK.
01:02:12
The entire thing is handsome JFK wandering through it. It'd be interesting to know what he would have been. Do you think he would have run for
01:02:17
office? Absolutely. Don't you think? Oh god. Why would anybody? I know. But he would have, don't you
01:02:23
think? I think probably. Yeah. Impossibly handsome. very quite smart actually. Um very interesting. Yeah, he
01:02:29
probably would have we probably would have been better off with someone like him because he rich person who try. Yeah, I like rich people
01:02:35
who try. We're going to have They're getting thinner on the ground. I agree. If we're going to have them,
01:02:40
let's have the ones that try. And again, Bertha Russell. Okay. Um and please
01:02:46
watch that and escape from New York. David, I've given you two assignments for you and your wife for this weekend. I think I know which one I'm going toward first.
01:02:51
All right. Okay. But I just Anyway, okay. That's the show. Thanks for listening to be sure to like and
01:02:57
subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on Friday and I'll read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara
01:03:03
Neon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie Enderdott engineered this episode. Nishak Kerwa is Vox
01:03:09
Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for
01:03:15
listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod.
01:03:21
will be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business without Scott. Thank you,
01:03:27
David, again. My pleasure.
