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Ruth uh Ben Ben Gat is a professor of
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history at NYU and author of strong men
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musolini to the present she also writes
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the substack Lucid oh what a good name
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which focuses on abuses of power and
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threats democracy Ruth welcome thank you
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I'm so glad to be here so we want to
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talk dictators uh I want to start with
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something you posted on X last week
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after Donald Trump shared violent
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imagery of Joe Biden on true social you
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wrote wake up people this is an
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emergency uh a lot of people have
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concerns about that imagery but what it
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specifically that made you sound the
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alarm here you've been doing it for a
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while so I'm not so sure that's the
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newest thing in the world for you but
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but talk about why why that bothered you
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in particular of the many things that
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could bother you about Donald Trump yeah
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so it's about you know because because I
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feel like uh Donald Trump has been um
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waging and his GOP enablers have been
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waging uh a whole campaign to
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delegitimize all of our Democratic
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institutions and in particular uh you
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know attacking Joe Biden this was an
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image which uh showed Joe Biden it was a
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you know a sticker on the back of a
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pickup uh as though he were a hostage uh
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kidnapped and if you study coups a third
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of my books strong men is about coups
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and authoritarian
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takeovers what is this showing it's
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showing an outcome of a political
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situation where Biden is has met a bad
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end where he's somehow been overthrown
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and ended up tied up mhm and this is
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being uh you know this is being depicted
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as something positive and so it's
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continuing the coup and it's just it's
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it's extremely dangerous uh for obvious
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reasons and I feel like this is um
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normalizing this is allowing people
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which is the point right I mean you you
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called it you said Trump's repeated uh
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elevation of dictators as models of
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leadership should be understood at part
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of a re-education strategy and one thing
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he does is this is not new he that was
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CNN if you remember him punching CNN y
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that this was a years ago he he did one
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that I wrote a column about when he was
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you not just um you know standby and
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stand whatever the heck he said he says
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it a lot it's but it's not a new Fresh
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thing but you're calling it a
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re-education strategy that's been
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ongoing right that it hasn't stopped the
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coup and he continues to do that explain
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why because because he says he's joking
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he says he's kidding he's this is just
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him that this is his brand of humor such
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that it's not funny but still um talk
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about the re-education part of it yeah
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it's it's interesting what he's been
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doing uh and this is since the fascists
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uh melini and Hitler you've got to
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re-educate people uh to see violence in
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a positive way and even make it into
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something patriotic and even morally
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righteous and Trump has been using his
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rallies since
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2015 and uh this was part of my report
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for the January 6 committee he's been
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just over and over saying like oh in the
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good old days we used to be able to
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punch you know protesters so there's
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that vector and then uh he's been also
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elevating dictators like doesn't matter
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you know North Korea China whatever they
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are communist fascist uh as as positive
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models of leadership Orban he had he
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recently met with uh Victor Orban from
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Hungary go ahead yeah and so Orban what
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does he say I take seriously what says
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and he says that you know orban's so
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great he's so strong because he says
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this is how it's going to be and
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everybody just accepts it so he's
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telling us what his what he's telling
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Americans his followers that this is a
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positive model so if you take the
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violence as a way of moving history
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forward which was January 6 and you take
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the positive um refor the positive
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praise for these murderous dictators you
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get a re-education strategy because he
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said saturated the media environment for
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now many years over and over and over
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again it's nice to meet you Professor I
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don't think we've met before um so we
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spent a lot of time talking about what a
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danger Trump is and how wrong and really
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um anti-American a lot of his activities
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much less his rhetoric are but he was he
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was
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elected uh by the US and he continues to
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pull really well despite all of these
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things that are horrific to everyone on
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this
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podcast what is it about the
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atmospherics in the US um um that has
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led the populist to
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support this individual who we all agree
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uh does not acquit himself as we would
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want someone who wants to be the
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president what's happened in America
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what's changed here that's a great
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question and um there are patterns to
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these things and uh in the research for
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my book when when there's been a
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perception that um there's been too much
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Social Pro progress and and certain
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people are losing out uh it could be
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conservative Elites uh who are worried
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about losing their privileges um it
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could be people thinking there's too
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much gender emancipation too much uh
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racial emancipation you get a kind of
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counterrevolution that's a that's a big
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word or you get a
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backlash and and that's when somebody
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like a Donald Trump is appealing but but
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a Donald Trump also um models himself
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for that environment and the thing about
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these strong men is that they're highly
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sensitive to they read the marketplace
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and they understand what is uh want what
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is wanted and they model themselves they
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will be whatever they need to be to get
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to power because they have no morals
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they're just about getting control so so
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Donald Trump comes up and he was the
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perfect person as the anti- Obama um and
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he he was the the male brute so he
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addressed the people who felt that you
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know women had too much power uh
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same-sex marriages were taking over all
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of the racial stuff and so that's that's
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what he did and he and he also told
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these people that he loved them that
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they were the Forgotten and so there's a
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sense that he's not just going to
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represent them he's going to protect
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them and take care of them Daddy a big
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daddy he's daddy he's big daddy and he's
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remained Big Daddy and once they bond to
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him and they feel feel protected U but
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they're also protective of him because
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he's also the victim and musolini was
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the victim erdogan's the victim they all
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do this and it's highly effective this
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manipulation of emotions Scott you write
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about you know masculinity and and
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emotions and and Trump is the latest
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example of somebody who's extremely
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skilled at using this can I can I ask a
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followup Tera go ahead first off
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Professor I I just think what I think
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that's such an important point
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because been thinking a lot about row
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recently and I don't think people zero
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in on some of the things you're talking
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about to really understand and I would
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just want to double click on it my sent
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as you talk about them wanting to return
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to an Era where they were more
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comfortable and I think it's more
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specific than that um just as young men
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have fallen further faster than any
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group in America the ascent globally of
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women over the last 30 years is
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unprecedented they've doubled their
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elected positions in parliaments there
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are now more women globally enrolled in
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tertiary Ed education in men and I think
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the extreme of any religion is really
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uncomfortable and wants these up women
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to sit down and I think it's I think
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it's I think that's what row is I don't
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think it's about birth isn't this
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specifically about telling um very
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conservative sex who sex of of of of of
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religious extremists who have
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disproportionate power and unfortunately
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young men who feel shunned by women then
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I'm going to take power back from women
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oh totally and who better than a
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repeated you know abuser uh somebody who
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boasts about you know uh putting women
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in their place and and this was part of
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his marketing strategy from the very
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beginning and that's why when the um Hol
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the Access Hollywood stuff came out I
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knew that it would actually help him
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because you know this who these are the
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people I study it's been it was horrible
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to write the book and be in their heads
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you know melini was a serial rapist um
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and many others Qaddafi as well so this
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is part of their their Glamour and until
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we uh wean ourselves from this kind of
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toxic brute you know idea that this
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Brute Force this this this ideal of
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masculinity is glamorous and desirable
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we're going to be susceptible to these
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Donald Trumps so can you ask the
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similarities can I pick up on that
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between Trump and some of these classic
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dictators I did not know that about M
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musolini are there differences also yeah
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the outcomes are different so you know
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we're not going to whatever happens is
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not going to be a a hitlerian one party
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state or or a North Korean one party
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state but um the similarities are that
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they these people are highly
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sophisticated at communication and
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whatever the era they're in they use the
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latest tools of communication to forge a
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direct and unmediated bond with their
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followers so musolini uh you know was he
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was gesticulating and he started in the
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age of Silent Cinema he used news reels
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now Hitler of course
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he had the radio um and he ranted and
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the Nazis invested in like
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state-of-the-art uh audio technology uh
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so that when he had rallies his voice
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would reverberate in ways that made him
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feel seem more Godly because that's part
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of the personality cult so they all do
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personality Cults which the it's so
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interesting the rules have not changed
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for hundred years you have to be a man
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of the people so you're relatable and
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certainly Trump is but you have to be
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the man of above all other men so they
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all use this and so Modi used um
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Holograms uh when he ran initially for
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office so he could be everywhere and
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nowhere like a god uh berus scone who
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owned TV networks use satellite TV to be
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everywhere and Trump used Twitter so
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that's one thing they do they have these
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bonds with uh that people feel they're
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speaking directly and only to them which
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is which hasn't changed for a hundred
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years if you're advising the white do
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how would you match this because Biden's
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certainly not that person I yeah I think
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um in general uh the we can learn from
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autocrats uh uh to make more use of
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emotion in politics there's one of the
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things that autocrats do really well is
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create these tribes and these
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communities and they make people feel
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cared for it now it's bogus of course
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they're just really trying to manipulate
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them Trump doesn't care you know at the
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beginning of the pandemic I didn't an
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interview and I told I said that uh
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Trump doesn't care if you live or die
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and people got upset but that's just how
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it is but they seem to care about people
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so so Democrats in general around the
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world can make more use of emotion of
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joy of Hope of love and and Biden does
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this in his own quiet way but um it it
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it it'd be ideal if if it's somebody who
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is a more charismatic energetic vehicle
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for that kind of is there someone like
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that is there someone like
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that um I'm I'm not sure I mean I'm a
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big fan of Pete buddh as a communicator
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um and he's he's been he's got a
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restrained personality but he's able to
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talk he goes on Fox and he's liked on
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Fox he's a very very he's a great asset
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as a
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communicator um and he has everything I
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think um as a communicator and he could
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develop in this direction uh if given
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the space what about worries you the
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most about a trump second term um I what
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worries me the most about Trump's second
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term is that he has been very clear
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about his intent to um have an American
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version of fascism um now that's again
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that's not going to be a one- party
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state but he wants to uh turn the US you
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know AR the military if he could but
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certainly um law enforcement to repress
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uh large numbers of Americans to deport
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you know millions and he would uh stop
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at nothing to try and gain total control
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uh of the United States and that's what
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authoritarianism is at its very essence
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it's the it's the executive trying to um
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you know overwhelm and the other
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branches of government so that they can
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be safe and be uh never prosecuted again
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can he actually do it we're such a big
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and diverse country with so many like
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you can't imagine California going along
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there's elements in every state like
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this but how do you manage to do that I
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mean Germany was a very particular
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smaller country so it was Italy so is
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Turkey in a way you know although it's
00:13:18
much more diverse turkeyy is more
00:13:19
diverse with Eran um how do you and
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certainly Modi has has has done that but
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has limits has had limits in terms of
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what he can do so how do you look at
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that is that is is that a possibility I
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we've all seen the science fiction about
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it we've all seen those apocalyptic
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movies where that happens um yeah I mean
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to Hitler you know hit musolini is
00:13:42
actually a better example um or somebody
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like an orbon because to versus Hitler
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because today things often H happen
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gradually um you but Trump is you know
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and project 2025 is about you know
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having an accelerated transformation of
00:13:58
government using
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executive orders perhaps the
00:14:01
Insurrection act and you know we know
00:14:04
there are many things that he can do the
00:14:05
main thing that definitely would
00:14:07
happened because it happened during the
00:14:08
first Trump Administration is so that
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Trump is not interested in governance
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he's interested in using uh public
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office for private benefit and you know
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in his first Administration he spent one
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out of every three days not governing at
00:14:24
the White House but visiting Trump
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branded
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properties and so this kind of
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enrichment uh of you for you and your
00:14:32
family and cronies that definitely would
00:14:35
go on he's already said you know he's
00:14:37
boasting that he accepted uh money
00:14:40
during his first presidency from the
00:14:42
Chinese for quote services and I'm still
00:14:45
trying to get somebody to ask him what
00:14:47
those Services were so the White House
00:14:49
would be for sale uh our intelligence
00:14:52
would be for sale perhaps it already has
00:14:54
been you know keeping documents in his
00:14:56
bathroom all of this uh left lack of um
00:15:00
accountability and eraser of public
00:15:02
versus private that's the strongman
00:15:04
thing they don't they don't accept any
00:15:06
eraser any divide between public and
00:15:08
private it's all theirs and it's all
00:15:10
Theirs to sell and profit from um
00:15:14
Professor my sense is the the media has
00:15:16
a difficult time trying to figure out
00:15:18
the approach to covering
00:15:21
Trump do you do you have any thoughts
00:15:23
around where the media has has uh
00:15:27
succeeded or not succeeded and
00:15:29
in the role the media plays to trying to
00:15:33
figure out how to cover this guy great
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question
00:15:38
yeah yeah it's a little like Frederick
00:15:41
burchall in the New York Times Reporter
00:15:43
who sort of normalized Hitler for a long
00:15:46
time oh yeah and and mus musini actually
00:15:49
had a column A syndicated column because
00:15:52
uh the anti-communist uh Baron Hurst was
00:15:56
his backer that reached uh a thousand
00:15:59
newspapers for eight years in the United
00:16:02
States so talk about normalizing I think
00:16:05
you know we know the the the Press has
00:16:07
been it was working with an outdated
00:16:10
Playbook uh A playbook that worked uh in
00:16:14
in terms of two um if you had two
00:16:17
candidates and two parties that were uh
00:16:20
that still bought into democracy the
00:16:22
problem is it's they've been slow to
00:16:25
understand how to cover our situation
00:16:27
where we're a bipartisan Republic but
00:16:29
one of our parties no longer is in
00:16:32
democracy I see the GOP as an autocratic
00:16:34
party and if it were a sovereign entity
00:16:38
its foreign policy would be pro-
00:16:40
autocratic Pro Putin Pro orbon that's a
00:16:43
reality and they've struggled so that's
00:16:46
where they they they still do the both
00:16:48
sides ISM um but it's a little more
00:16:50
subtle because for example Meet the
00:16:52
Press um which which has a bipartisan uh
00:16:57
viewership um um Kristen Welker has done
00:17:01
very well actually bringing Republican
00:17:04
guests on and probing them and the
00:17:07
audience there are Republicans who don't
00:17:10
want to see perhaps a republican um
00:17:13
aggressively bashed but will listen to a
00:17:15
careful probing of their
00:17:17
hypocrisies of their
00:17:19
inconsistencies so so there it's just uh
00:17:24
you can you can think that this more
00:17:27
gentle approach is perhaps not
00:17:30
appropriate for our emergency but it
00:17:32
depends what your aim is MH so good or
00:17:36
what what should they be
00:17:39
doing con proving I think that uh the
00:17:43
headline writers are they a lot of PE
00:17:45
you know there's a lot of headlines that
00:17:46
are unhelpful for example even in the
00:17:48
Washington Post and certainly in the New
00:17:50
York Times uh also the placement of
00:17:53
important stories about Trump's
00:17:55
corruption uh often the New York Times
00:17:57
will put it on page you know 8 13 I
00:18:00
think that if we want to prioritize our
00:18:02
de saving our democracy we have to have
00:18:04
a different kind of placement of uh
00:18:07
these big stories um also to show the
00:18:11
American public that people are being
00:18:12
held accountable when January six uh you
00:18:16
know insurgents are sentenced uh when
00:18:19
the doj is doing things to restore faith
00:18:23
in institutions because bashing the
00:18:25
Press is a popular habit but it's a
00:18:28
symptom of also of this um success of
00:18:32
the right of uh making people lose faith
00:18:35
in all institutions right absolutely um
00:18:38
they uh I think one of the issues is
00:18:40
Trump and his cronies especially T
00:18:42
Bannon flood the Zone with crazy all the
00:18:45
time and so you get exhausted including
00:18:47
January 6 and so you're like G I'm tired
00:18:49
of listening to it kind of thing anyway
00:18:51
it's a really important book there's a
00:18:53
lot of really important books out these
00:18:54
days in this area Ruth Ben Gad uh her
00:18:58
subst is called lucid and her book is
00:19:01
strong men musolini to the present light
00:19:04
Little Light reading for you Ruth thank
00:19:06
you so much thank you I enjoyed the
00:19:12
conversation