Trump Sends Military After Protesters in Authoritarian Move | Pivot

I think this is one piece of the chessboard to what is a civil war. I

think this is another step to America breaking up. That's the plot of Hunger Games, just so you know.

Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Cara Swisser and I'm Scott

Galloway. Scott, we've got a lot to get to today, including the Trump Elon breakup getting uglier. Uh, plus another

breakup making headlines. Warner Brothers Discovery is splitting up just like we said. Um, but let's get to the

first thing because what's what's happening? Uh, there's lots of interesting I want to talk about your boxing match and etc., etc., but first,

uh, let's talk about what's happening on the ground in California. Governor, uh, Gavin Newsome says California will sue the Trump administration challenging the

president's recent order to federalize National Guard forces amid protests in Los Angeles over immigration raids.

Newsome already asked the White House to rescend its deployment of 2,000 National Guard troops to LA, accusing Trump of

manufacturing chaos and violence. Trump made the order over the weekend invoking a rally used federal law. Uh, Defense

Secretary Pete Heg says created more of a problem. He also got in the mix by suggesting active duty Marines could be

sent in. Newsome called these comments deranged behavior. I think it's a [ __ ] show that Trump is creating on purpose

as many people do. Um, and that he's creating tension in order to pick a fight. Essentially, this is what he's

trying to do so they can uh and creating immigration actions that are things that

would cause a vote, would cause people to protest and then trying to egg them on into worse activities. So, let's talk

a little bit more about that. I've called um this complete overreach by a desperate despot. Uh, your thoughts?

Well, I've been called hysterical for uh you know a while now

comparing or drawing similarities between America right now and 30s Germany. And you don't have to be Hitler

to borrow methods and worst practices from his playbook. And that is when

tanks roll through cities, it doesn't feel like strength. It feels like a funeral for civil

society. Germany is in Germany in the 30s didn't collapse overnight. It slid into tyranny by normalizing soldiers

where citizens used to stand. You know, early Nazi propaganda decided and we're

doing the same thing. We have real problems overseas. You know, there are still Russian, you know, Russia is still

invading Europe. China, there's real significant issues around China, Pakistan, and India. Could could

eventually digress to a a nuclear conflict. Iran is trying to spin up

reactors. But if you look at and again I think I just this has so many echoes of

30s Germany early Nazi propaganda emphasized that Germany's problems were due to internal saboturs, communists,

Jews, immigrants and that today if you look at this rhetoric they're blaming immigrants, academics, protesters,

journalists. It it mirrors kind of the same playbook here. And when you have a

government who turns its military force inward against journalists, migrants or citizens who believe and exercising the

right to protest in a civil, peaceful manner in justice, you're not defending democracy. You're rehearsing for

something much darker. So it's it's not the protests themselves. It's not what's

going This is another step towards normalizing uh an attempt to rebrand

um militarization as patriotism. And Right. Right. So, do you think it's working? His just for people to know,

historian Ruth Bengette wrote on threads, fascists want to provoke violence so they can justify crackdowns

and get some good footage, distort the state uh propaganda outlets for for state propaganda outlets like Fox News,

etc. Um and and and the media is illprepared to push back in in saying

this is what it is, but it's obviously you bring troops in and you create all kinds of, you know, people there's

rubberneckers that people that show up. You know, if you recall what happened around the church near the White House when people were protesting, Trump

created chaos in order to say it was chaotic, which is some which is sort of

like fascism 101 essentially. Um when you how do you assess how California is

dealing with this? Obviously Gavin Newsome has suddenly found his backbone and uh has pushing back. He said come on

and arrest me because they were making threats to arrest Tom Hman who is literally it looks like the drunkle is

running the show over there. Um but uh but he he said arrest me then or or or

but but stand down. This obviously has to go to the Supreme Court um in some

fashion, which is problematic in and of itself. But when when the when the when the state governors are asking them not

to do this and have it under control or say they have it under control, how do you how do you assess what's going on

with the Cal California itself? I actually think this is I think this

Governor Nuomo comes out of this a winner most likely because I think what it's doing is it's sort of setting up

the next presidential election between Trump's appointing JD Vance and Governor

Nuomo. And I think so far Governor Nuomo has tried to stay forceful yet dignified. But I thought he was smart to say, you know, he's he's not trying to

whip people into a frenzy or he's trying to dial it down and he's basically taking on Tom Holman and saying, "Arest

me." I think he's handling this he's handling this quite well. So I don't, you know,

it's it feels like literally Cara the way analogy I would use, I was trying to think of analogy. It feels like you're trying to fix a smoke alarm with a

flamethrower and they're just looking for a reason. They're trying to provoke someone into shooting someone in uniform

such that they can have an overreaction. And I in 1992 I came home from graduate

school and I found armed uh National Guard on my corner. I lived in this very

peaceful neighborhood in Westwood and on the corners there were two what looked like boys high school boys in fatigues

with you know M15s or assault rifles and that that doesn't feel like safety it

feels like a breakdown in society it makes you lose faith in your government and it forces you to choose a side and

it's just very it's just very strange and then just more broadly when I think about the role that the presidents or

past presidents have played And when I think about the role of someone who's powerful and really well

respected, the most the biggest compliment you can ever receive is someone who asks you to play peacemaker

and to deescalate a situation, right? That's when you know you've made it in business is when people, you know, I'm

patting myself on the back, but a lot of times I serve as a buff a buffer or someone to mediate disputes between a

board and its CEO. And I'm really I'm really that feels really good. That makes me feel important and it makes me

feel like I finally have some business maturity. When typically the president of the United States is deployed all

over the world to help bring waring parties back from the brink of war and

to settle things and deescalate. And so when you have a president who appears to be just manufacturing and escalating

what could ultimately be I mean I'm I want to be clear I'm a bit of a catastrophist here. I think this is one

piece of the chessboard to what is a civil war. And that is when you have a a

government cosplaying authoritarianism that seems to have missed the last or the first half of the last century and

what happened in in um in Europe. I mean this is how this is how it ends. I don't

think America ends with a bang. I think it ends with a a thump and some I imagine the next a next move. All right.

Newsome says, "We're sick of sending $80 billion to the federal government that you can deploy to red states that then

you use to demonize us. So we're not paying our federal taxes." And then or Texas say Governor Nuomo is elected

president. Texas says we're not certifying the election. We don't we don't honor your federal elections. And

then before you have know it, California becomes a tech economy doing trade with Asia. Texas and the South become an oil

and gas economy. The East Coast becomes a services financial services economy

doing business with Europe. The Midwest a manufacturing economy with strong relationships with Canada. They maybe

develop their own currencies. Governor Nuome tried to weaponize volunteers to

create his own army. This is what they did in the Weimar government. And before you know it, we're like the European

Union but a disunion of states. So I think this is another step of breaking

up. Just so you know. I'm sorry. That's the plot of Hunger Games, but go ahead.

I literally didn't I didn't I was like, "Huh? Wait a minute. Who's Jennifer Lawrence?" That's me. It's funny. I

don't I I never saw the full series of Hunger Games. Um Yeah. Yeah. That's the book. Although I'm a big Donald

Southerntherland fan. I'm not a huge Jennifer Lawrence fan. But anyways, that's the that's they break into

districts. That's the that's the story of Hungary. Well, they break into districts and then the districts try then the center tries to hold them and

it's it's a version of it. My point is people think that the end of America would be some huge civil war. I think it

could happen much more quietly than that. And that is this is what's being set up. There's going to be a number of

states, I believe, who are going to economically sequester andor refuse to honor the next

results of the presidential election. I think that is what is being set up here. I have a different thought. Yep. I think

all these people are going to jail eventually. When you say all these people, who's the people that are creating this this this fake war, the

fake war people, you know, wag the dog, they're wag they're trying to wag the dog. Tom Holman and Homeman, I think

they're going to be under investigation the rest of their lives, but he'll get he'll get a full pardon from the I'm not saying I disagree with you, but let's

play this out. The all these people will get full pardons at the end of the uh Trump tenure, but you think that that

that could be pierced? I think it can be pierced. I think there would be a tr I think that the further they go the the

issue is they're so incompetent. They're so like obviously incompetent in in a lot of ways. You don't have to be

competent by the way to create chaos and create destruction. Um they're quite good at that too. Uh but someone like

Christine Gnome, Tom Hman, uh you know, Marco Rubio's been dragged into here and has ruined his his reputation forever, I

suspect. I think they're all in a world of trouble the minute Donald Trump is out of the picture. Um, and that you

can't people people I don't think citizens put up with this. I don't I don't I absolutely do not. I think I'm

seeing more people getting more activated in good ways than ever before. And so, you know, it it doesn't take

much to crack down on people, but this is a big country and it's very hard to control. Um, and the more they try to

control, the more they try to do um this kind of nonsense, the more people see through it. Absolutely. Oddly enough, a

lot of my relatives who are Trump people are like, "This is [ __ ] up." And it's not the leftists they're saying are

[ __ ] up, which is usually their way to go. Um, it's more he's crazy. This is nuts. This is ridiculous. You know, uh,

so we'll see. We'll see if other people buy into this, but I do think he exhausts his base and regular people

begin to take back control of this. Um, you know, it's just, uh, he can try. He

can try. That's what he's doing. He's trying desperate. He's a desperate. That's why I called him the the complete overreach of a desperate desperate.

Every move he's making lately to me is both despotic, incompetent, and also um

insecure in a lot of ways. But we'll see. But what you just outlined is

is my vision of how you would restore and heal America. That you'd have moral clarity and have the effectively like a

Nornberg trial where you said, "Okay, you knew this was a lie. You purposely tried to create violence and mayhem.

purposely tried to overrun our elections. You purposely committed fraud. You purposely leveraged our

international sway to enrich your children. I love the idea of a stream of perpox and moral clarity around this

stuff. That America's laws have a long memory. I love that. That's a fantasy of mine. I dream of that at night. My fear,

Cara, is that there's actually a lot of people who like what's going on right now. I I would push back. Hitler was real

popular until he wasn't. Wasn't he real popular? Oh, he was popular up until the end. Cara, that's right. That's correct.

And he still is in a lot of ways, oddly enough. Um, but I think a lot of He never tried. He he killed himself

because the Red Army was circling. Of course. But my my Look, I'm a long view

person. I think there's going to be a lot of damage in the interim. I think your scenario is perfectly uh possible.

Absolutely. No question. Um but in my scenario, every single person who's

behaved like Trump ends up ends up badly. I would say badly. Um whether

it's Mousolini, uh Saddam Hussein, um Gaddafi, uh the Chowescus, it just

always ends with the same story, which is uh you know the people around these all these people were executed or or

killed themselves. Well, I know that's what I mean. I think our country is slightly different. And I think we allow like we let Nixon go off to, you know,

we tend to be more forgiving in that regard. But it's the same version. It's a metaphorical version of that. Um, and

I we'll see. I think he's Look, he's an old man, so we'll see how long he lasts,

right? Um, but uh but the and this is just as you say, biology is uh is

undefeated. Um I mean, all all joking aside, he did the same trip Biden did

the other day if you saw it. the same exact trip that Biden did on the stairs

going on the stairs. So, I was just like, well, you people but to your point hold on because he's he's what hold on

to Trump because he's all you got to these people. That's my feeling. So, but but to your point I like to move to what

Democrats should be doing. I don't understand why a Democrat hasn't forcefully We're

so we're so obsessed with grabbing social virtue and taking the higher road. Mhm. I don't understand why a

Democrat hasn't announced her president and said, "And on the order, I'm passing

a constit I'm getting congressional approval to arrest people who have engaged in fraud, to arrest people who

have engaged in trading off our country's um geopolitical power for personal

enrichment. Uh, I'm arresting people who have fmented violence while using the military while knowing that these these

actions were unamerican, unconstitutional, and not needed. And here is the exact legislation I'm going

to propose that will pierce any pardon. Why has no one stood up and

said, "Hi, I'm a Democrat and I have actual [ __ ] testicles." What would they be saying? This would be the mother

of all. Lock her up. Can you imagine what they would be threatening? What's really interesting is is that Kla Harris

warned about troops in the streets. So did Hillary Clinton clearly everything Hillary Clinton warned about. He did.

Exactly. So I'm going to listen to the women in this case. She also Kla Harris talked about this. You can make fun of

her all you want, but she she had this one cold of what he was his his movement. And she's not she's not the

only one who said he would do this. Um but she was the probably the most outspoken. There was a great story in

the Atlantic uh this week by a friend of mine, Mark Lubich, about Obama's sort of chill pill kind of attitude. I do not

know where this man is. Like, I'm sorry. There is not a strong Democrat yet who has emergent. It could be someone who

announces for president. You're right. That's a great way to do it. But the only person with the gravitas, and

people are like, why doesn't George Bush Jr. do it? He doesn't have the same gravitas that President Obama has. stand

up and not just when he feels like it, not just when he wants to make some announcement and then he goes off and

plays basketball with celebrities that which is what he's been doing honestly, but someone like that they're very I was

trying to think who who could do this and create a nationwide problem for Trump and it is

only Obama. It is only Obama. I think it could be a new voice. The problem is I I I agree with you. I'd love to see Obama

do it, but the office of president there is a generally accepted principle that

former presidents do not get involved in politics and come out swinging. Not this guy. No, I this guy doesn't deserve

that. I get it. I I understand it and I'm not saying I don't disagree with it. That the better opportunity is for

someone to emerge with a new vision for America who's a Democrat and just comes right out and says, "I think there are

crimes that have been committed here. I'm not going to threaten my political opponents with incarceration, but I am

going to uphold the Constitution. And my belief is that there have been several criminal acts committed here, and I'm

going to hold this and I'm going to and and by the way, if some Democrats have

continued to engage in insider trading, I'm going to hold them accountable. I mean somebody needs to stand up and say

I am running to defend the constitution and on day one I am going to demonstrate and put on full display what the

constitution actually if we don't restore incentives if we don't restore incentives to the downside as well as

the upside then it's kind of game over and no one's running on it no one stood up and said I'm ready this is what I'm

going to do I'm not sure who has you can't name I can't name I think it's someone TBD I think it's probably a Democratic governor who we don't even

know yet because at this time well we know who they are. Well, yeah, but we didn't Okay, they weren't household

names. We Clinton and Obama were not Nobody knew who they were in this part of the election cycle. This is a huge widespace and opportunity for a

Democrat. Uh I don't think it can be I see I see that. I think right now Barack Obama's got to stand the [ __ ] up and

stop stop playing basketball and hang out. I'd like to see it, but I don't see going to celebrity things. Stop. He did

the whole stop. He did the whole if this were me, can you imagine if I did that? But I think quite frankly, he has such a

nice life and he's so focused on maintaining his brand equity. I don't think he wants to take the risk. I I agree with you. I think he should. I

don't think he will. Oh, I don't think he will because I think he he he I think he's the only one who could and he

should do it and it's his duty as an American. What about What about What about Bill Clinton? If you if you're

gonna pull people, I think I think a lot of the exes have a lot of baggage compared to President Obama. I think a

lot of them do. I I think Bill Clinton for I know it sounds dumb, but he's older and his voice is bad. There's only

one who's looking good and in fighting shape is President Obama. George Bush does not have the same I mean all of

them together. Great, but President Obama is the one that needs to stand up. And I got so like I I pushed that

article and they were like, "What about George Bush? What why should he come out? Why should he come out uh against

this?" I'm like, "Cuz cuz they've ruined his legacy." because they've like because it's the right thing to do and

he's the only one honestly I can't think of anyone else in public in there's a huge wide space for uh someone who wants

to be I mean I've I've and you received these calls too I've received calls from six people who are excited to come on

the pot which is their way of saying I'm running for president and what I say to their PR people is like well tell them

to tell him to start actually running for [ __ ] president then and come up

with actual sober plans and talk about bold solutions, attach real money and numbers to it, talk about what we

actually need to do. And also, I mean, they were saying he was President Trump

and it was effective. I'm not being indignant. It was effective. He was saying chanting lock her up around

Hillary Clinton's emails. And we as Democrats are like, "No, we've got to

take the high road." Well, that's what I'm saying. Stop standing on ceremony. I mean, I don't know. I think Obama, get

off your tail. You're the only one right now. I think it should be I think it should be a stepstone to this person being elected. Uh so I think he's the

only one. I think it's a big opportunity for somebody. We'll see. Um okay, Scott, let's go on a quick break. When we come

back, how Trump is threatening Elon even though Elon has acquiesed, it looks like. Scott, we're back with the latest

fallout from the Elon Trump breakup. Trump says his relationship with Elon Musk is over and threatening serious

consequences if Elon funds Democratic candidates. Trump is he's not Trump is pushing everyone around. Trump has been

busy talking to reporters and working the phones over the last few days, calling Elon disrespectful, a big-time drug addict. He's also selling that new

Tesla. Apparently, there's been talk about a possible truth. Of course, political reported there was a call with

representatives for both men on Friday. I think that was just David Saxs calling Donald Trump up. Elon, for his part, has

deleted several of his tweets from last week, including the one tying Trump to Jeffrey Epstein. And on Sunday, he appeared to be kissing the ring,

retweeting posts from Trump and JD Dance about the LA protests. I was I've been I've been actually unfortunately going

on Twitter and watching what he's up to and he seems to be first he was focused a lot on on SpaceX and things like that

and now he's um he's he's sort of retweeting a lot of support for Donald

Trump again. So I think he's probably trying to get in there. He doesn't want to uh he realizes he's in a in a

deleveraged position and he's decided not to go rogue. People have actually calmed him down. I I don't I don't think

it's going to last for him. Um, but a lot of people are trying to get Elon to back off and acquies. So, and I think

largely a lot of it is because his businesses will be at risk. Uh, Tesla's got recovered a bit at the end of the

week, although the company is still facing some pain if Trump spending bill passes. Uh, in terms of SpaceX, Elon

appears to have changed his mind on decommissioning the Dragon spacecraft. That was so ridiculous. But NASA and the Pentagon officials are urging SpaceX

competitors to quickly develop rockets and spacecraft, according to the Washington Post. And um and we're just

learning now that some Trump officials had some concerns about the Starlink getting installed at the White House earlier this year, which we brought up

many times. A lot of Tesla's getting downgraded all over the place. Um uh and

obviously people in MAGA world have to choose sides though. New polling by

Yuggov suggests that Republicans are not conflicted with their loyalties. to ask how what what who they would choose

between Trump and Musk. Seven in 10 Republicans said Trump although three that's interesting same thing with JD

Vance who was pushed forward by who got his job through Elon Musk and Peter Teal essentially. He's always going to be

loyal to the president. He hopes Elon eventually comes back in the fold. Uh David Saxs of course because the he's

anxious to has been privately encouraging Musk to call the president try to mend the relationship. Now Steve

Bannon on the other hand is making trouble. He's urged Trump to deport Elon and seize control of SpaceX. Bannon also

provided details with Elon's Oval Office fight with Treasury Secretary Scott Bessant to the Washington Post,

revealing how the fight got physical. Apparently, there was a ramming. He Elon rammed his shoulder into Bessant's rib

cage like a rugby player and Besson hit him back. Um, Musk has called him a liar. And we haven't heard anything from

Steven Miller's wife, Katie, who recently left Doge on the White House. Oh, she's here under the desk. Oh,

that's wrong. Oh, that's wrong. though Elon had to rebuke his chat box uh his chatbot Grock after it falsely claimed

that a tweet where Elon bragged about taking Katie Miller from her husband was real. Um Grock believes it was and Elon

said it wasn't. Um uh as I said Elon called a ban a liar. Um so what do you

think? What do how do you look at this? What do I think? I think if this were any gayer, it'd be a Bravo reality show

sponsored by Grinder. I just I mean for God can you imagine two bigger [ __ ]

than this? I mean it's just like God if I had two 12y olds behaving this

way. Let me get this and I just love how okay Trump or Mus thinks he's

illuminating to the world that Trump was guilty of a sex crime on an island and

then Trump threatening to deport him. No, not Trump. Bannon. Bannon suggested it. Oh, is that I thought Trump said he

would he had it had come to his attention that he was he was here illegally or again this is all just such

a such a distraction. And to be clear, Trump Musk has no problem with the bill.

He knew what was in the bill. He he was he's part of the architecture here. He's part of this notion that it's exploding

the deficit borrows bothers him as he tries to cut 40 or 50% of the IRS. Mhm.

This is what happened or my read. He wanted to get involved in China relations. He wanted

He wanted He wanted to be co-president. Yeah. No, he wanted to be an unelected president. And Trump said no. Scott Bent

said, "I'm not letting you pick these people." They got into a fight. He got punched in the face, it looks like, and

now he's decided that all of a sudden he doesn't like the the tax bill. and and

Trump is hitting back. The problem is it's a huge distraction from from more

important issues here. Musk has more to lose because the

government could he Trump is not above absolutely weaponizing the government and threatening specific punishment for

his companies, whether it's tariffs, taxes, uh rescending EV taxes, canceling

all contracts with SpaceX. But we've said it was dangerous investigating,

bringing back the SEC, bringing back he could do all manner of things. Or what he's done to other citizens, he's been

sending other citizens to concentration camps. And people get triggered when I say the word. The definition of a

concentration camp is a a a an incarceration facility that is purposely

put outside of your own country such that the people you send there are no longer protected by the laws in in norms

of their home country. So these are concentration camps. They fit the definition. Are they are they

exterminating people there? No. Not that we know of. But these fit the definition of concentration camps. And if he can

send if he can send people that it ends up have not committed a crime, right?

Why could he theoretically not send you, me or Elon Musk? And that's the problem

with all of this is that we have decided a pillar of our justice system is we heir on the side. We have made a

decision to give people really wonderful rights. We have aired on the side of

occasionally someone who deserves to go to jail doesn't rather than accidentally

lock up a gay hairdresser who's done nothing wrong in a hellscape in El Salvador. We've decided to heir the

other way and this guy has decided to go the other way and air on the side of

people who are innocents. Anyways, my point is he can I you know must to his

credit I mean you know Honeybadger don't care. he's under the impression I'm more powerful. And to his credit, he's true.

He's right. He did get, you know, you could make a very solid argument that he in fact did get Trump elected. Uh so,

but again, I worry I worry it's not it's again a distraction from what I think is the bigger issue here, which is the grab

for power. Absolutely. What's interesting is I'm just looking at at at at Elon's uh tweets now. He's absolutely

backing Trump on this um on the on what's happening and he's putting and he's you at the same time he's putting

out there like he just um if Elon Musk hadn't bought Twitter none of us would know what's going on in LA right now. Um

uh and so he's just retweeting everything anti-immigrant. He's back to that and say, you know, having he he he

goes, "If you talk to someone who gets all their information from Legacy Media, they're living in a different world. They're getting it from your podcast or

news from X. We're living in all. So, he's his fake reality. He's pretending he's he's using it to pump X, which is

doing rather well, you know, because of this because of his war with Trump. Um, so he's just he's back he's back into

the fold. And, you know, my my only thing is he's going on a bender again, Scott. He'll go on another bender. Um,

which is what I think happened with Trump here. Um, but he'll he's not going

to get back. Trump is not letting him back in. Apparently, he's quite hurt that Elon and he aren't friends anymore.

But I don't think Trump will let him in only if he is completely prostrate on the ground to Trump. That was the only

way he's getting Oh, I think Trump's probably I I think Trump wants to bring him back. All I think Trump wants to do

is just get him to neutral. I don't think Trump's going to let him back in. He's like, "This guy this guy is

dangerous, uncontrollable, very powerful. I think he's just going to want to come to some sort of day taunt

with the guy in just but he's not going to let him near the west lawn again. I mean, he's not there's

um there's no way. I will say this though. I I I think Trump's or Musk is

just such a a terrible role model and a weird person, but I would 100% because I

I have heard indirectly from Elon Musk. I would 100% accept a invitation to do a weekend in Vegas with him. I can't

imagine anyone better to roll with in Vegas. 48 hours. I'm in you, him and

Katie Miller. That'll be great. Anyway, I also want I I'd like to roll with Laura Loomer and if we can dig up the

spirit of David Kering kung fu, a white guy. He's a monk in the west. That's

right. Yes. They abuse him and then he uses his heels and his Yeah.

Hopper. Hate that [ __ ] Oh my god. Oh my god. Dad, in the courtship of Eddie's

father got me through a divorce. Hold me, Cara. Hold me. Anyway, um when one

thing though, Doge has collected two wins from the Supreme Court. First, the court granted an emergency application

filed by the Trump administration to allow members of the Doge to access social security administration data.

Second, SCOTA's ruled that Doge doesn't have to turn over internal records to a government watchdog group for now. Now,

the three liberal uh members dissented from both rulings. Uh you know, I think Doge is over. I think they're leaving.

There's people that are going to stay embedded, but and and different cabinet members will do what they want and use

the Doge people there, but you know, they've cut the head off of this thing and the Doge father, whatever he call

himself, the Doge father. Uh so ridiculous. This cosplaying is so stupid. Um uh so it was interesting. My

favorite part was Bill Gates reportedly visit the White House on Friday to argue for reversing Doge cuts. Just moving on

in there. And uh and and they they will all those different tech people will do whatever they're in in in Bill Gates's

in case he's trying to reverse USA ID things. So good for Bill for going good job Bill is what I say. Go right in

there. And it show showing how he was the original Doge father really and a lot godfather in a lot of ways. Um, but

I think uh pretty much Doge is over and and they will um the cabinet members

will do whatever they want, but Russell vote still remains uh in charge and trying to push through the idea of

dismantling government and that is certainly isn't going to stop. Doge Doge I think it's Yeah, you're right. It's

over. It's I'm really curious what the state of the tax bill is. I'd love to be

in those Senate hearings right now around if this thing has any, you know, any chance of getting through or if this

is all posturing from Rand Paul and the few Republican senators who claim to get it through claim to care. And if you if

you upload, get this, if you upload the tax bill into Chat GPT and ask it to summarize it, it says it's an

authoritarianism wrapped in bureaucratic language. It doesn't even talk about the tax end of it. Yeah. It talks about

things like essentially uh they no longer can be these senior

officials can no longer be found in contempt of court. It transfers massive so if any if they get congressional

subpoenas to come testify on an alleged crime, they can ignore them. It it massively transfers power from uh

agencies where it's full-time full-time government officials to a massive

transfer of power from them to appointed officials. I executives. It moves everything to the executive. Yeah. It

moves everything upward towards appointees and the executive. It's really, it's so funny that Chad GPT

focused on the authoritarianism as opposed to the economics of this tax bill. And it also said what was

interesting, one of the points it came back with was this is a really elegant legally deaf piece of legislation. If

Russell vote, Russell vote is the one you need not focus on Elon, that [ __ ] clown. Russell vote is the one that's

trying to dismantle the and and give power to the executive. That's the whole goal here. I think they'll regret it

when Democrats come into power if they give these powers. If it's very that that's a really interesting point and

again Democrats love to Again, I would love to see, you know, I would love to see uh Senator soon to be Governor

Bennett um basically put out a Well, there's so there's so many things the

Democrat friend Bennett to get up there, start talking. Yeah, I'm I'm a huge fan of the senators. You know, actually,

based on that, I'm I'm I am going to reach out to him this afternoon. But why wouldn't someone who's interested in

running for president put out a list of executive orders they're going to do on day one. Yeah. Yeah. These are the executive orders I have planned. Yeah.

Right. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Let's go on a quick break and when we come back, Warner Brothers Discovery is splitting

in two as we said it would. Scott, we're back. Warner Brothers Discovery will split into two public companies.

streaming and studios will be one company including movie properties and HBO Max and the other company will be

the global networks company including CNN, TNT Sports and Discovery. Uh CEO

David Zazlov will lead streaming and studios and the company's current CFO Gunnar I think his name is will become

the CEO of global networks business. The split is expected to be complete by the uh the middle of next year. Shares of

Warner Brothers Discovery up over 7% at the time of the taping, although it's they've been really down. Scott, we

discussed that possibility last month and uh you got this partly right, but this is something we've talked about for a while that this was going to Allah

Versent, which is the Comcast runoff and we both have talked about this extensively, but let's uh uh let's let's

listen to what we just said recently. I think I know what's going to happen here. The company's going to go good bank, bad bank. It's going to be HBO

Warner Brothers, the theater business, the characters, the IP, which will feed into HBO. HBO is the brand. It'll have

another component, a sub a subset HBO Max or something that's all the other [ __ ] and then they will spin all the TV

and the cable assets into they'll either consolidate or be part of a consolidator a consolidation with Comcast and that is

they're just these are still highly profitable businesses but they're shrinking. So that means consolidation

and cost cutting right which is ex it's almost exactly what happened at Comcast here. the comp which is about to almost

be completed I think um and therefore possibly a a merger acquisition or the

opposite they merge in some way the company has not yet announced that will split Warner Brothers Discovery's huge

debt uh 37 billion although it's it's it's cheap debt but it's still debt nonetheless um but it will take out a 17

billion short-term loan ahead of the split to bring down that um how should they divvy up the D this is I mean again

a bunch of small little boat little media boats I was on a panel with Anderson Cooper over there again after

they showed good night and good luck and Anderson was asking me, you know, are there going to be this big thing? I'm

like, no, everything's getting split up and like that's these you can't have these big entities anymore um that are

that are spending enormous amounts of money and don't make any sense anymore from an audience point of view. Um so

how how do you look at this and how should they devy up the debt? I think that's probably the most important thing here. Well, th this was absolutely the

smart thing to do because the market the market wants a consistent story and the

story around legacy cable assets are that they're still hugely profitable but they're declining businesses and really

the business strategy and it can be a very effective strategy for creating shareholder value is to go acquire other

struggling cable assets and cut costs faster than the business declines. So

these things usually don't decline as quickly as people think. So yeah, it's like AOL dialup. That's right. Or so if

there if the business is declining 6 to8% a year, as long as you can go roll it up with Comedy Central and, you know,

name name your teeth Bravo or whatever it is, as long as you can consolidate the back end and cut costs faster than

8% a year, that is accreative to the bottom line. And that's a decent trading stock. And then you have the other thing

that requires capital to grow because HBO and Warner are still, you know, technically growth assets. So, you have

to have a consistent story and these stories don't these stories don't work. So, it makes sense. Um, the argument

they're having right now and and and I knew this before it happened. David Zazoff gets the cool [ __ ] He gets to be

on the cool side. He gets Warner Brothers and HBO. Yeah. Yeah. And the CFO who has always was the bad cop who

actually is considered a very good executive but going his job is to consolidate and cut costs and go on a

nomination. He's very good at cost cutting. That's what he's known for. And to call Brian Roberts and say, "All right, how do we how do we put how do we

put these two things together?" And the argument they're having right now and consultants are in there and they're all

posturing is how much debt is is uh is the bad bank going to have to take with

them because they're the more profitable one in the short term. But they're all looking at I think I think they have a

total of about 33 billion in debt. And they're all saying, "Okay, who who has to take mom, right? Who has to it's a

divorce and we're taking care of our parents and they're a real liability. Who gets or dad's a real liability living upstairs? Who has who has to take

dad?" Right? It's like in the fight between Musk and Trump, who h who gets custody of JD Vance? Who has to take

him, right? So, who does? Well, they'll come to some accommodation. It won't be it won't one won't get all all the debt.

They'll split it, but it's just a question of what the split is, right? And they could Why should the

money-making one take it at all? Why should this You're the Because they have the ability to service the debt, right?

Okay. And and what they want to do is make sure they don't these these companies still have I existing

shareholders are going to get shares in both. And also if you saddle if you saddle the the bad bank the cable TV

news company let's call it the cable division with too much debt it creates a poison pill where no one can acquire it

or merge with it. So they're they're doing a delicate dance here to try and and as you you know so this reverse

engineers it's all very incestuous. David Zazlov was the highest paid CEO in

media or old media. He made $53 million 52% I believe of shareholders said we we

don't approve your compensation while the stock has gone down 66%. Because his compensation was tied to paying down

debt and he has done that. He and the CFTO have CFO have paid down the debt I think from like 50 or $55 billion. Also

well paid by the way. But they've got to figure out a way to figure out who's going to take who who and how much of

this 33 billion in debt. But this is a smart move. We knew this was coming. There's going to be massive consol

consolidation. What's next? What what so versent's coming out that'll be its own thing and they'll split off from NBC and

the it's exactly the same thing here. So what happens? Does a does a does a the

people buying Paramount pick up one of these things? is ABC pick it up who which has its own troubles with Terry

Moran doing that stupid post that he did um about Steven Miller 100% accurate but

he's a he's a beat reporter he never should have done that um uh what do you what do you see where

does it go next because we all knew this was coming so it's not like you know what's interesting I have said this

publicly several times over at CNN and they're all the anchor all the different

people there are like do you think they're going to split. I'm like, "Yeah, like that's what they're doing right now. They're figuring out how to do it,

you know." Um, but where does it go next? I think is really I assume they merge with either

they merge with a Versent kind of thing or they get bought by a by a rich guy like uh David Ellison and that gang over

there or or a hedge fund, right? I mean, where does it go? So the the ecosystem

is getting it's getting late very early and that is these are declining assets and every deal they've struck the deals

get worse as time goes on and I I don't know if it's legal but if it is I would

imagine the Roberts family the people who control Comcast are basically advising on how to structure the Warner

deal such that they can almost immediately merge with the bad bank of the Warner assets and start

consolidating the back end. There's no reason why CBS and CNN can't share a lot of the same. The CBS newsroom can't be

mostly the CNN newsroom and vice versa. Does that create the same thing they're in now with if it mixing Paramount with

them? Is it just richer people? Because it's the same it just puts instead of Warner Brothers is Paramount. Well, I

No, what I'm suggesting is is just that we don't need all these newsrooms. News rooms are really expensive. You might

have different front-facing brands with different distinct audiences and advertiser relationships, but you'll

say, "Okay, CBS Newsroom and CNN Newsroom. They're each a thousand people." Uh, combined they're going to

be 1,200 people. And we're going to rebrand it and we have our front-end anchors. We have I forget it's Gail

Keane, CBS, I forget, and Anderson Cooper over here. But a lot of the back end and the office space and the studios

and the benefits and the HR manager and the CFOs and the tech people and the you know it's all going to be they've got to

massively consolidate the back end and what why would Paramount grab it because again I don't know if it would be

Paramount. I I was just using an example Paramount. So merge NBC with CNN. I

think the most the mo the cleanest one right now the most obvious is Comcast's assets and Warner but because Paramount

Mhm. Jesus Christ, she is being backed into a corner. There is a nonzero probability right now. The National

Amusements Paramount declares bankruptcy in the next 12 months. Well, it's owned by it's going to be owned by a wealthy

group of people. It's But they Yeah, but here's the thing, Cara. The FC the FTC

will not approve this until Trump gets his pound of flesh from his ridiculous

60 Minutes lawsuit of which Sherry is under huge pressure not to bend a knee.

If she doesn't bend a knee, the FTC will not approve this transaction. And she

has somewhere between, based on what I've read, somewhere between a quarter of a billion and half a billion dollars in debts coming due from loans from

David Ellison's father and money she owes investment banks. And if she can't pay that debt, they can bump her into a

restructuring at which point all the suitors go, "You're weak. We're not paying you this. We're paying you less."

So she's in a really weird spot right now. So she's got some health problems, too. and she has and she's battling

thyroid cancer. So this ecosystem, this is going to be a

very interesting 12 or 24 months. Yeah, it'll be interesting where it all ends up. What's your likelihood? I would

assume maybe the Warner Brothers assets and the Comcast assets get brought together, right? That's% CNN, NBC. And

that's why I was saying Brian Roberts and his team, and they're very smart, is probably in conversations if it's legal.

I'm trying to think if they're allowed to do that. If it's uh to say this is how this is what the combined company we

look would look like and how we make this the as seamless as possible post

post the spin and of course it would make sense for for those guy the Versent group they'd be stronger they'd have

more options they could cut costs better um there you know they'd have the MSNBC

more you know more obviously like Fox New like why do MSNBC and CNN need IND

independent newsrooms. I mean, this is heresy. Actually, the NBC newsroom is going with the other with the other

gang. Yeah. So, the newsroom itself is actually the actual news gatherers. But

what you said, I I I don't think it's going to happen that it might be a hedge fund. Because here's the thing, the

numbers, even at these discounted numbers, they still don't make financial sense. And what's telling is that the

three people surrounding the Paramount sale, obviously Sher Redstone, Edgar Bronman was in there for a while and

then David Ellison, what do all three of these people have in common? Rich kids, as you noticed, they're rich kids because guess what? Anyone who didn't

make their own anyone who made their own money and understands how to make money and understands how to read who took

accounting and and and makes money doesn't spend daddy's money isn't getting [ __ ] near these things

because these guys David Zazlov and David Ellison are willing to overpay with other people's money so they can go

to the Academy Awards and hedge funds aren't allowed to do that. I I mean um

uh a friend of mine co-founded Anchorage and his co-founder bought Lionsgate and I remember saying there's cheaper ways

to go to the Academy Awards and he ended up getting bailed out by Amazon and actually making money but these are it

there's no accident that the players here are all rich kids. Yeah, it's interesting. We'll see what happens. But

uh but I'm sure uh there'll definitely be a consolidation here. A very obvious consolidation. It's a question of which

way it happens. And the thing is they get outsized attention given how small they are compared to other businesses.

Uh I keep saying that. I'm like you know you're little. You know you're little compar you're not who you used to be. Um

by the way that was a really fun thing for them showing off good night and good luck on the network. I thought that was

just a lovely thing to do. Um all right one more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. Okay Scott let's hear

some wins and fails. I guess I'll go first. There were a lot of options for me for the win. DC public schools will

enforce a cell phone ban starting next year. My my kids are in DC public schools. I'm very happy about that. Um

also um uh the the Tony's were amazing were amazing were really fun. I love

Cynthia Revo. She provided a really good show and even though that's a small business too in a lot of ways I thought

they did a it was really fun and entertaining which is what they should be. Um and minimum of lecturing it was

just really good performances especially bringing back the Hamilton group together to sing. It was super fun. Um,

but I think my my win of the week is you seeing you in a satin boxing rope, Scott. Um, I have to say, first of all,

I sent it to Alex. He's like, Scott's in good shape for for for a man of his age, essentially. Um, I that was looked

really fun. You looked adorable. What a cute thing. You were you were But your shirt off was the best part with the

drag queens. I loved this Scott Galloway who's yelling at Beers Morgan who's

wearing a box. I like this guy. I like what I've made here, this man that I've affected in some way. But tell me,

explain to me how that went very briefly. Uh, a good friend of mine, Pablo Doritus, does this thing called

the final rumble where two people pretend to be boxers. They answer questions, they each answer them, and

then the crowd decides who wins the round. At the end of the bout, you get a belt on based on who wins. So, the last

one was Anthony Scaramucci versus Kevin Olirri. And this one was me and a really

impressive young man named Sher Michael. Michael Singleton, who I just thought was lovely, and I hope I hope there's

more conservatives like him. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, let's be honest. I'm in Detroit. I go up against a 34 year old black

Republican. The odds were he was going to win. I mean, but he didn't. You won. Um Yeah. Well, you know, Daddy Daddy

did. How'd you win? You had the belt. I had the belt. You going to wear that? Um but it was a ton of fun. I really

enjoyed it. And the the the thing I'm so excited about is like I said to Pablo, I said, "Okay, but I get to announce my

entrance." You know, when boxers come out. Yeah. Yeah. And Shir Michaels was really good. He did a He did a drum line from an all black uh I think college or

high school in in Detroit. It was really cool. And I went through no small effort

and experience. He was wearing a suit. It looked like he looked like he was Yeah. What a mistake. I found five drag

He's a handsome man, by the way. He's a handsome man. He's a good-look kid. And I found five drag queens. And it was

that was the best part of it. And that's why you won. Oh my god. entirely why you was I came out I came out as you noticed

with no shirtless with drag queens. Oh god that was it for me that I could you

worked out extra like I got to say you look I've seen you somewhat naked. You look you look like you're in much better

shape. You did some work there to get to that. Oh yeah working out four times a week for 40 years. Must be the testosterone. Anyways testosterone,

excuse me. That was that was that was the best. But that was a lot of fun. Thanks for the kind words. I really

enjoyed it. that to me it should have been a fail but Scott it was a win that and my fail obviously Trump's ridiculous

behavior but I'm gonna do a tech one um Bill Atkinson who was Apple computer designer and created software that

enabled the visual approach of Alisa and Macintosh computers died of pancreatic cancer here's an unsung hero of there's

several of them who including people who are living like Susan care and others but Bill Atinson was a critical critical

the way we compute today is because of inventions from people uh like him And

what a really important inventor. Um, lovely guy. Um, and just one of these

people you don't, you know, you hear about some of them like Johnny Ibe and others, but Bill Atinson was just a

really critical person to the development, early development of computer uh, computer design and

everything. Just uh, as I said, a lovely person and um, sadly had pancreatic

cancer. Um, but uh, that was my fail. But people should look him up, read about him. He's an important figure. Um,

and you you will have never heard of him, but he was critically important. What about you, Scott? Besides your

nudity drag queen thing, um, my win is just to call balls and strikes, there is

one component of the GOP tax bill that I do like. So, they're talking about increasing the tax on the profits of

endowments from a little over 1% to upwards of 21%. Aimed at Harvard, I

assume. Well, let's be honest. It's a it's a war on education for the wrong reasons, but that doesn't mean it can't have positive outcomes. And the bill

does say unless they spend more than 5% uh of their endowments, they need to stop hoarding wealth. And I believe

American universities largely set the tone for uh big components of America

and this rejectionist [ __ ] culture where we're hoarding money instead of spending it on financial aid. We're

expanding the size of freshman classes such that these institutions can sit on endowments the size of the Costa Rican

GDP. Meanwhile, they decide to only let in 500 people. That means you're no longer a public servant. You're you're

in a mess bag. So, they should you want them to spend that money so they don't get taxed on it. And because of the

threat in this bill of these taxes on their endowments going from 1 and a.5% to potentially 23, they are proposing a

solution where they would spend at least 5% each year of their endowments on things like financial aid, new

facilities, the local economy, or expanding freshman seats. And that is exactly what they should be doing. There

is no reason these elite universities, I mean, I've said this before. If higher

education were a pharmaceutical, it's a pill that makes you less likely to be obese, more likely to get married, more

likely to stay married, more likely more likely to be civically involved, less likely to kill yourself, less likely to

be obese. And that pill is called higher ed. So why would we hoard that pill and

make it so expensive when we have the ability to distribute that pill to vastly more of the American public? So,

I'm hoping that one one benefit even if this bill doesn't doesn't go through, which I hope it doesn't, is universities

are responding and saying, "Okay, we get it. We should probably if if we have $6

million per student, maybe we should spend money on financial aid and maybe letting in a few more students that that

we have to stop this culture of hoarding amongst the most fortunate and blessed."

So, I'm that's my win. I think un the wrong reasons but the right thing. That's right. I think I think an outcome

of this might be the universities realized once you get above a certain point your job is to spend the money and

add value not to hoard wealth. Okay. And I think that's a lesson for Americans. I I you know I decided seven years ago I

was going to spend everything above a certain amount or give it away. Hoarding wealth is really a virus in America and it it affects people and it affects

institutions. Anyway, my fail is the renaming or the dnaming of the USNS

Harvey Mil. So Harvey Mil um um uh many people some people might not

know him. I know you know him. Uh but essentially Harvey Mil who was uh a US

supervisor, one of the first openly gay people to be elected in San to be elected anywhere. First one of the first

openly gay officials to be elected. Um he was also most people don't know this. He was in um uh he served during the

Korean War on a submarine rescue ship and later as a diving instructor and his military review records uh used the word

outstanding and he was promoted to officer and then in 1955 his superiors learned that he was

gay and they gave him a choice. They said either resign and forfeit your military benefits with something called

other other than honor. And so he had to give up his military benefits or face

court marshal. So he resigned and then he went on to be uh he went on to be a

uh what's the term of supervisor? He was supervisor and he was murdered alongside the mayor Muscone by a fellow

supervisor. And what do you know the first week of Pride Week and let me back up 20 I think

it was 2017 they said he served honorably maybe a way of compensating and also a way of recognizing and giving

a nod to what is probably 5% if not more of our nation's armed services consists

of gay people given that somewhere between five and 8% of the US population identifies as gay. They've played such a

huge role. Wouldn't it be nice to give this guy his his overdue recognition and name a ship? And they named this basically this oil tanker that's not a

an especially important ship the USNS Harvey Mil. Secretary Hegsth in the first week of Pride

Week commands issues an order to rename the ship and saying that this is in line

with restoring what they call a warrior mentality or warrior culture. It is just

such an affront to the gay community. It is so deeply bigoted. It is so unnecessary. It is so cruel. It is just

so [ __ ] weird and even distinct of the moral argument. What does that say to gay people who want to be in the armed

services? And folks, just so you know, the straight people showing up or the straight men and the gay men, I imagine

twothirds of them or 70% of them can't get through the initial screening because they either are obese or

mentally unfit. So you want to take an additional 5% of the population and say

you're not welcome here. And distinct of the moral argument, I can pretty much prove to anyone that gay people are no

better or no worse than defending our shores and killing bad people. And so you're making us less safe when you

decide to inhibit the pool of people to defend our country, you are making us

less safe. So this not only like weird and straight straight up bigoted against

a guy who served his country honorably and was was unjustifiably discharged, right? A small

nod to him. A small nod to the gay community. Oh no, we can't let that stand. And it makes us weaker. It makes

us What is the message we're sending to good young gay men and women who want to

serve their country? I know you experienced a little bit of this. I wanted to be in the military, Scott, and I wasn't because I didn't want to lie.

And you refuse to go along with don't ask, don't tell. Yeah. That makes us weaker when we Yeah. My dad was in the

Navy. My dad was When we shrink the pool of potentially great great human capital, it makes us weaker. So my fail

is this bigoted, weak, and weird renaming of the USNS Harvey Mil. This

was a really important man that gave people a lot of comfort, made it probably a lot easier for people to to

represent their community in a transparent way in leadership positions. And there's something just very And by

the way, I don't I didn't like it when Civil War general statues were torn down. I think it's part of history. If

the community decides they want to tear it down, fine. But I thought we got way too [ __ ] woke and started tearing

down people in a whole different way. There were people in London who wanted to tear down statues of Churchill. I

mean, I hate What do you call it when it's the right doing this? Is it woke or is it just drunk in the case of Pete

Head? Well, this is just straight up bigotry. Yeah, this is just straight up homophobia and bigotry. But all of these

things make us less strong. I mean, it does does. Thank you, Scott. Anyway, so

that's my fail is the weak. Harvey Milk was a great leader in San Francisco and was was killed by murdered doing his

job. Murdered doing in city hall. Um and that's you know which by the way gave rise to uh Diane Feinstein supervisor

who became mayor Diane Feinstein who went on to be you know a very important senator. Mhm. Anyway, just a great he to

this day there's a place near my house like a block from my house where they have the his he had a he had a

photography store in the Castro. You can go visit it. It's there's a plaque to him and uh and he where he did his

business. He was a business person too by the way in this in a very successful business person of he had a photography

store. Anyway, uh thank you Scott. God Scott you what is happening? What is h we're switching roles here. It's really

interesting. I I'll start telling penis jokes and everything else. I'm moving to San Francisco. You are you're going to

move to my house. Anyway, we want that was a great one. We want to hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your

mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 pivot. A

reminder, we have another live call-in show coming up. Call or email us and let us know what you'd like to ask us and

make it spicy. We like spicy. Elsewhere in the Cara and Scott universe this week on On with Cara Swisser, I spoke with to

NPR CEO Katherine Maher. Let's listen to a clip of her discussing NPR's lawsuit

against the Trump administration. My concern is that this makes this feel as though we are in some way in an

adversarial posture to the administration. Um, which is not the right. Yeah. Well, it is, but I mean

I of course, but I it's an adversarial posture in response to an adversarial

action and that adversarial action is one that we believe to be unconstitutional. So, I mean, if

anything, I would say it's our patriotic responsibility to defend the First Amendment as a media organization. She

was really impressive. She's from tech. She ran Wikipdia. She's terrific and really it's a great interview. Um, okay.

That's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot and be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back on

Friday. Scott, read us out. Today's show is produced by Lara Name and Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie

or Todd entry in this episode thanks also to Drew Burrough, Miss Aaro, and Dan Chalon. The Shock Crow as Fox meet

is executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening

to Pivot from New York Magazine Box Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back later this

week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. This isn't law and

order. It's fascism foreplay. You don't need troops in the streets. You need leaders with spines and policies that

don't read like rejected plot lines from the man in the high castle. What's going

on here has nothing to do with patriotism. has everything to do with authoritarianism.