00:00:00
the more Donald Trump gets away with, if
00:00:02
he is allowed to pardon people and
00:00:03
there's not enough uproar about it and
00:00:05
nothing happens and he's going to um
00:00:07
pick he's going to arrest people without
00:00:09
due process on the streets or detain
00:00:10
them uh even if they're American
00:00:12
citizens.
00:00:19
>> Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York
00:00:21
Magazine and the Fox Media Podcast
00:00:22
Network. I'm Cara Swisser
00:00:24
>> and I'm Scott Galloway.
00:00:25
>> Uh again Scott, we have to do an
00:00:27
emergency episode. This is getting kind
00:00:28
of ridiculous. uh we had to jump in here
00:00:30
to talk uh to our audience about what's
00:00:33
happening right now with journalists and
00:00:35
our friend Don Lemon right now. He was
00:00:37
recently on the show uh as a guest host
00:00:39
while you were away. Um but he was
00:00:41
arrested by authorities in Los Angeles
00:00:43
Thursday night where he was covering the
00:00:45
Grammy Awards um accused of violating
00:00:47
federal law tied to a protest he covered
00:00:50
as a journalist at a Minnesota church
00:00:52
earlier this month. Lemon and three
00:00:54
other journalists were arrested in
00:00:55
connection with with this uh this event
00:00:58
at the city's church in St. Paul,
00:01:00
Minnesota. Attorney General Pam Bondi
00:01:03
said she ordered the arrest of Don and
00:01:04
three others citing a connection to a
00:01:06
coordinated attack on the church. Don
00:01:09
has repeatedly said he was there as a
00:01:10
journalist, not a protester. And if you
00:01:12
watch what he did there, that's what he
00:01:14
was doing, including interviewing the
00:01:15
pastor and others. A magistrate judge
00:01:18
rejected an earlier attempt by the DOJ
00:01:20
to bring charges against Don uh and
00:01:22
other protesters. And the DOJ petitioned
00:01:24
a federal appeals court to force the
00:01:26
judge to issue an additional warrants
00:01:28
only to be denied. But the DOJ went
00:01:30
ahead anyway even though courts and
00:01:33
prosecutors within those offices in Los
00:01:35
Angeles and Minnesota are resisting
00:01:37
this. Lemon's lawyers called the attack
00:01:39
uh the arrest an attack on the First
00:01:41
Amendment obviously and says Lemon will
00:01:43
fight the case in court. He's supposed
00:01:45
to be uh arraigned uh today in Los
00:01:48
Angeles. Obviously, Don's a friend of
00:01:50
ours, a friend of mine. Um he's been uh
00:01:53
been reaching uh reaching out Pat when
00:01:56
he when he was fired from CNN. He and I
00:01:59
got to know each other because I helped
00:02:01
him sort of mount what he was doing,
00:02:03
which was independent journalism. And
00:02:04
I've been very proud of him what he's
00:02:06
been doing. He's doing a lot of street
00:02:07
journalism, taking his his uh microphone
00:02:10
to people, asking them questions. He's
00:02:12
built a big following on YouTube. I
00:02:14
think he crossed a million subscribers
00:02:16
recently. But what's what he's doing is
00:02:18
really amazing. He's doing these things
00:02:20
and what he does, he's a man on the
00:02:22
street essentially. And so he went into
00:02:24
this church while this event was taking
00:02:26
place and um and was doing reporting and
00:02:30
which a lot of reporters should do. You
00:02:31
know, I think he's found a new life in
00:02:33
doing it as an independent journalist.
00:02:35
And it's pretty um pretty amazing all
00:02:38
the stuff he's been doing. very varied
00:02:40
and talking to all kinds of people, not
00:02:42
just liberals and but conservatives. He
00:02:45
goes in places other journalists don't
00:02:46
go. Um, and I think it's a real value
00:02:49
what he's doing. And so he was doing
00:02:51
this here. Um, he was then it was the
00:02:53
Grammys. I mean, it's very varied where
00:02:55
he goes. Uh, he was in New Orleans for
00:02:57
New Year's and stuff. And so what he was
00:02:59
doing here was journalism. And because,
00:03:01
you know, he's had a target on him by
00:03:03
the Trump administration who never liked
00:03:05
him when he was at CNN. And uh and so
00:03:08
this is what they're doing. And they're
00:03:09
getting what they were getting is a lot
00:03:11
of pressure from church groups for this
00:03:13
group going into a church. And you can
00:03:15
debate whether they should have gone in
00:03:16
that church, but a journalist certainly
00:03:19
could follow a group of people in there.
00:03:21
He did not coordinate the attacks.
00:03:22
They're going to try to allege he did
00:03:24
that he was part of it. Um, but it's
00:03:26
really again part of this uh what I said
00:03:30
on in today's episode that just aired
00:03:32
was they're going to keep escalating
00:03:34
because they're desperate and they're
00:03:35
losing the public case. Um, and so part
00:03:38
of their their their uh handbook here,
00:03:41
the fascist handbook, is to attack
00:03:42
journalists. It's happened in Turkey.
00:03:44
It's happened in all manner of the
00:03:46
authoritarian countries. And this is
00:03:48
what you do. And uh and so doing these
00:03:51
high-profile cases, even though judges
00:03:53
and lawyers do not want to do this and
00:03:55
say it's full of [ __ ] which it is, um
00:03:58
is really frightening. Um and it's meant
00:04:00
to frighten. And what we have to do is
00:04:02
push back. We have to fight it. But the
00:04:04
fact is they will keep doing this and
00:04:06
they will not back out. They will not
00:04:08
deescalate. This is part of the the this
00:04:11
is part of the problem is you all think
00:04:13
you can work with these people and you
00:04:14
cannot. Uh any thoughts you have? I I'm
00:04:18
it makes me nervous. I have a lot of
00:04:20
people who have have been threatening to
00:04:22
me and uh it makes every journalist
00:04:24
who's doing any kind of speaking out um
00:04:27
really uh really at at risk I would say.
00:04:30
>> Yeah. I think it's important to
00:04:32
distinguish that this wasn't uh you know
00:04:34
50 people refusing to leave an area and
00:04:36
they get arrested one by one for
00:04:38
trespassing. This was our attorney
00:04:40
general, the federal government,
00:04:42
>> specifically targeting specific
00:04:44
journalists and essentially
00:04:47
>> deciding to criminalize journalism,
00:04:49
which
00:04:50
>> at the end of the day, it converts
00:04:52
politics into policing. And also,
00:04:55
>> this really should be a cause for alarm
00:04:57
be
00:04:58
>> well, it's the first step in state
00:05:00
capture of truth. They
00:05:03
>> they arrest journalists. That's kind of
00:05:05
the first step towards mass repression.
00:05:07
And it's not usually just journalists
00:05:08
that go after loud critics, polarizing
00:05:10
figures,
00:05:12
>> people that the public quite frankly are
00:05:13
already split on. So Don Lemon is a
00:05:15
controversial figure. A lot of people
00:05:17
don't like him and will celebrate this.
00:05:19
But once you normalize
00:05:21
>> criminalizing journalism from whatever
00:05:23
political spectrum,
00:05:25
>> the enforcement widens really fast. And
00:05:28
just some historical context,
00:05:31
>> this happened in Turkey in 2013. The
00:05:33
initial arrests were seen as quote
00:05:35
unquote law enforcement and within 5
00:05:37
years Turkey became the world's largest
00:05:39
jailer of journalists. Russia in the
00:05:42
2000s early cases targeted quote unquote
00:05:44
controversial reporters and the result
00:05:46
now is that Russia now ranks in the
00:05:49
bottom 10% globally for press freedom.
00:05:51
The other the you know I always go to
00:05:53
the money here. When a society starts
00:05:56
doing this, it almost always uh predates
00:06:00
economic collapse. Whether it's Egypt,
00:06:02
whether it's Hungary, this isn't a good
00:06:04
move for the economy because what
00:06:06
happens here is it's not the censorship
00:06:09
itself,
00:06:10
>> but it creates an environment of
00:06:12
selfcensorship where people stop
00:06:14
>> start spiking stories etc. And this
00:06:17
isn't also this line t
00:06:20
>> this the last thing I'll say this line
00:06:22
>> tends to be a difficult line
00:06:26
>> to cross back easily once you start
00:06:28
normalizing they did it in thear
00:06:30
republic they did it in Hong Kong once
00:06:32
you start normalizing the arrests of
00:06:34
journalists and controversial figures
00:06:37
it's it's a fast hill down and a slow
00:06:39
hill uh back
00:06:41
>> yeah I would agree I mean one of the
00:06:42
things that's really disturbing is it's
00:06:44
not just this arrest which is the
00:06:46
explicit version of it is what we're
00:06:48
talking about is the capture by these
00:06:50
tech billionaires of these institutions
00:06:52
that are sort of soft pedalling. Now,
00:06:54
there's one thing for Fox News. We know
00:06:56
they feel like a state propaganda arm
00:06:58
most of the time. Not always, but most
00:07:00
of the time, you know, I talked to a lot
00:07:02
of people, they call uh Fox News
00:07:04
entertainment, but it's actually
00:07:05
propaganda and and everyone kind of
00:07:07
expects it. In this case, there's this
00:07:10
sort of this slow burn whether it's Jeff
00:07:11
Bezos, you know, uh, you know, deepixing
00:07:14
the Kla Harris um, endorsement or ma or
00:07:19
or making changes or gutting out the
00:07:21
Washington Post, whether you have Larry
00:07:23
Ellison um, at through Oracle owning a
00:07:26
big chunk of Tik Tok and also changing
00:07:28
CBS News into this bothsiderism kind of
00:07:31
situation. Um it's it's that too, the
00:07:34
sort of soft grab of of press power
00:07:37
which happens in these places and then
00:07:39
this very hard grab which is to arrest
00:07:41
journalists. And you're right, they're
00:07:42
picking someone who they've had a beef
00:07:44
with for a long time who the you know
00:07:47
it's in a church. So it creates that
00:07:49
kind of like how dare he go in a church.
00:07:51
But this is where journalists go
00:07:52
everybody. I'm sorry. You can have your
00:07:55
you can this should be litigated through
00:07:57
the courts with the protesters whether
00:07:59
they trespassed or not, whether they
00:08:01
were on private property, but Don
00:08:03
Lemon's a journalist and he followed
00:08:05
them in there. And so, and frankly, more
00:08:08
journalists should have followed him in
00:08:10
there. The fact that he was one of the
00:08:11
few, there was just a few of them there.
00:08:13
And so when you're covering these
00:08:14
protests, often journalists get caught
00:08:17
up in um in the they don't get caught up
00:08:19
in the protests, but they're there when
00:08:21
there's um you know, say tear gas or
00:08:24
whatever. And they're often pushed to
00:08:26
the ground. They're often abused. I have
00:08:29
years ago I was in a there was a protest
00:08:31
at at a neo-Nazi rally in Germany and I
00:08:35
got hit with all kinds of things and it
00:08:37
was it's such a melee kind of stuff and
00:08:39
but John was if you go and watch it he
00:08:42
was interviewing people including people
00:08:44
at the church and while they may have
00:08:46
been offended by the fact that he was
00:08:48
there interviewing them he's allowed to
00:08:50
do that under the first amendment and it
00:08:52
let me just say the first amendment says
00:08:53
government shall make no law this is the
00:08:57
government acting
00:08:58
Um, again, it's it's really frightening.
00:09:01
And of course, Pam Bondi, the Justice
00:09:03
Department has been an arm of Donald
00:09:05
Trump, not the independent body. It is
00:09:07
it has long previously had been in terms
00:09:10
of of relationships with president. She
00:09:12
is a lackey. She all these people are
00:09:15
lackey um to to this authoritarian
00:09:18
experiment. And let me let me stress
00:09:21
Donald Trump's uh poll numbers are
00:09:24
tanking like tanking like astonishingly.
00:09:27
Everyone is worse and worse among all
00:09:30
kinds of groups of people. And so what
00:09:31
they have to do is this. And therefore
00:09:34
next week in Ohio, they're going to
00:09:36
they're going to make a spectacle of uh
00:09:38
Haitian immigrants there, try to get rid
00:09:40
of them because they lose their ability
00:09:43
to stay there. Then they're going to be
00:09:44
doing that. They're going to send ice in
00:09:46
with mass goons all over the place.
00:09:48
they're going to they go to Georgia and
00:09:50
do the election thing. This is not this
00:09:52
is all of one piece and journalists
00:09:54
attacking journalists is is is part of
00:09:57
it and they will they will double down
00:09:59
and double down and double down until
00:10:00
the midterms. And if they can stop those
00:10:02
midterms, they most certainly will. I
00:10:04
don't believe they can, but they will do
00:10:07
everything in their power to create
00:10:10
a a situation where they'll be able to
00:10:11
pull the Insures Act or whatever they
00:10:14
want to do so that they can suppress.
00:10:16
And the only good thing that you have
00:10:19
here is everybody is speaking out
00:10:20
against this. And secondly, um uh that
00:10:23
this is a big country. It's a little
00:10:25
harder to control this country. And as
00:10:27
you could see from what's happened in
00:10:29
Minneapolis, that is the kind of
00:10:31
reaction that you're going to get. These
00:10:33
those protests uh were largely peaceful.
00:10:36
People standing up, average citizens.
00:10:38
They can't keep pretending everybody is
00:10:40
a paid agitator. It's one of their
00:10:42
tricks. And it shows weakness, but it
00:10:44
also shows brutality and a kind of
00:10:47
strength that should be frightening to
00:10:48
all Americans. Um, I'm not going to get
00:10:51
on high of journalists and first
00:10:53
amendment, but hello, it's the first
00:10:55
amendment. We have a right to all the
00:10:57
amendments, all of all the bill of
00:10:59
rights, and slowly uh the Trump
00:11:02
administration is trying to take away
00:11:04
your constitutional rights. Uh, and
00:11:06
definitely just did that to Don Lemon
00:11:08
today.
00:11:09
>> I don't have a background in journalism.
00:11:10
you you immediately texted this morning,
00:11:12
you're obviously very rattled and upset
00:11:14
by this and I understand,
00:11:16
>> but as someone who's watching the whole
00:11:18
thing, but doesn't I don't have a lot of
00:11:21
familiarity with the First Amendment or
00:11:24
or a background in journalism, but what
00:11:26
I do perceive as the following, and that
00:11:28
is, let's be let's just call this what
00:11:31
what it is. The attorney general
00:11:34
appointed by the president isn't
00:11:37
arresting journalists to enforce laws.
00:11:39
She's arresting journalists to shape
00:11:41
reality. And once the state,
00:11:45
the way I see it, once the state decides
00:11:47
who may safely speak, politics stops
00:11:50
being a debate and it becomes a
00:11:52
permission structure. And also, as
00:11:55
someone who spends a lot of time
00:11:56
thinking and studying World War II and
00:12:00
20th century conflict history,
00:12:03
history around this around arresting
00:12:05
journalists is brutally consistent.
00:12:08
Countries that start arresting
00:12:09
journalists in targeted ways, they don't
00:12:13
become more stable. They don't become
00:12:15
more truthful or more democratic. They
00:12:17
become quieter. Then they become much
00:12:20
poorer
00:12:22
and then much angrier.
00:12:25
This is a cycle that repeats out
00:12:27
consistently. So if you want to be
00:12:29
poorer and you want to be angrier, you
00:12:32
let the immediate slide of targeted
00:12:36
arrested journalisms turn of journalists
00:12:38
turn into a chill and a quiet. If
00:12:40
there's not, history shows if there's
00:12:42
not immediate gag reflex push back that
00:12:46
forces the immediate rethinking and
00:12:48
withdrawal of targeted arrested
00:12:49
journalists. History is clear. It slides
00:12:52
fast. Selfcensorship
00:12:55
poor angrier.
00:12:57
>> Yep. And let me just say finally, do not
00:12:59
let them both sides this. Don't let
00:13:00
them. They're trying to do it with Alex
00:13:02
Pettit. They're trying to do it with
00:13:03
Renee Good. They're always trying to
00:13:04
find excuses for murder. They're trying
00:13:07
to find excuses for arresting
00:13:08
journalists. There aren't any here. Uh
00:13:11
and and our heart goes out to Don. I Don
00:13:14
Don's a friend. He's been a guest host
00:13:15
here. He's very brilliant. And he's
00:13:19
really working really hard to try to do
00:13:20
something different. And uh like him or
00:13:23
not, and I love him. uh you you really
00:13:26
have to be terrified for people
00:13:28
including and let me point out the
00:13:30
arrest the the ste the taking of the
00:13:32
Washington Post reporters uh file uh
00:13:35
computers and files without a word from
00:13:37
Jeff Bezos. I mean he's swanning around
00:13:41
Paris at fashion shows. This is where we
00:13:43
are folks and so pay attention.
00:13:46
>> Well just again I go to the economic
00:13:47
side of it. The fastest part of growing
00:13:49
part of our digital economy is a creator
00:13:51
economy. Yeah. And what does this mean
00:13:53
for all creators that you have some sort
00:13:54
of Orwellian environment where you can
00:13:57
only certain people can speak about
00:13:58
politics, politics
00:14:00
>> and and global issues whether it's
00:14:03
climate warming or the incel movement or
00:14:06
>> we're talking about you know free
00:14:08
speech. There's a wonderful
00:14:12
part of the economy developing where
00:14:13
people feel like they can express their
00:14:15
views.
00:14:16
>> Yep. And if somebody who leaves
00:14:19
traditional media and is successful in
00:14:21
the crater economy and ends up in jail
00:14:24
because of the viewpoint seems to be
00:14:26
crosshaird with the current
00:14:27
administration. I mean you can just see
00:14:30
how this begins immediately to start to
00:14:31
damage the economy and also what kind of
00:14:34
message does this send to young people
00:14:36
that you have the opportunity to speak
00:14:38
out and create your own content only if
00:14:41
it's the right type of content. There's
00:14:44
a basic tenant of democratic societies
00:14:48
and it's the following and it's simple
00:14:49
and it's you know but it's very
00:14:51
straightforward and that is the
00:14:52
following. Pretty much anybody should be
00:14:56
able to say pretty much anything about
00:15:00
pretty much anyone else. That's it. And
00:15:03
we have revered that and we have
00:15:04
protected it. And the moment the moment
00:15:08
that falls, it is really hard to put
00:15:10
Humpty Dumpty back together again.
00:15:12
>> Absolutely. I mean, I like that you're
00:15:15
actually focusing in on the on the on
00:15:18
the business part of it because it's
00:15:19
important, too. It's easy to get, you
00:15:21
know, a high dudge in here, which I
00:15:23
have, but you're right. It this is an
00:15:25
exciting part of the economy. And um and
00:15:28
and the fact that that they're doing
00:15:30
this is just typical. This is so we are
00:15:32
hungry. We're becoming hungry. We're
00:15:34
becoming, you know, this soft descent
00:15:37
into hungry. I don't know what else to
00:15:39
say. It's so ridiculous. and and and uh
00:15:42
fiction. I'm looking up just uh the
00:15:44
first amendment. I'm just going to read
00:15:46
it for people for goodness sake. Let me
00:15:48
uh I'm just going to do it. Cong. It's
00:15:50
very short, Scott. And it's first, so
00:15:52
it's super easy. Congress shall make no
00:15:54
law respecting the establishment of
00:15:56
religion or prohibiting the free
00:15:58
exercise thereof or abridging the
00:16:00
freedom of speech or of the press or of
00:16:03
the right of the people peaceibly to
00:16:05
assemble and to petition the government
00:16:07
for redress of grievances. Well, folks,
00:16:11
we're agrieved and we're going to
00:16:13
petition them for that. Anyway, Don,
00:16:15
we're thinking
00:16:16
>> we're going to continue to piece
00:16:17
peaceibly assemble.
00:16:18
>> Yes, and we are. You know why it's
00:16:20
first? Because it's best. Anyway, uh I
00:16:22
appreciate it, Scott. Thank you so much.
00:16:24
I was super rattled this morning. And my
00:16:26
good friend Scott uh as usual has some
00:16:29
amazing insights and it's really
00:16:30
important that we keep at this. And if I
00:16:32
get arrested, Scott, will you come and
00:16:33
get me? Will you come? I I'm literally
00:16:36
I'm proud to say and this goes for you.
00:16:38
I'm people's jail call. I always carry a
00:16:40
[ __ ] ton of cash and I'm a night person.
00:16:43
So I'll come down anywhere late at night
00:16:44
with a bunch of cash and all like that.
00:16:47
>> A lot of discretion, no questions asked.
00:16:49
I'm your call, Cara.
00:16:50
>> All right. Thanks, Scott.
00:16:51
>> There you go.
00:16:52
>> All right, everybody. Thank you very
00:16:54
much again. That's the Emergency Show.
00:16:56
Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure
00:16:58
to like and subscribe to our YouTube
00:16:59
channel. We'll be back with a full show
00:17:02
on Tuesday.
