00:00:00
If we arrived at this meeting and then somebody opened a door from a supply closet and Vladimir Zilinsky walked out
00:00:06
and sat down and Trump said, "You guys talk. I'll be right outside this door." That would be a victory.
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Hi everyone, this is Pivot from New York Magazine and the Vox Media Podcast Network. I'm Carara Swisser. Welcome
00:00:22
back to Scottree August.
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[Music] This is possibly the most badass day of scot-free August. My co-host and I are
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the Alpagino and Robert Dairo of lesbian journalists respected, feared, and often confused for one another because of our
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hair, our fantastic haircuts. Let me just say welcome to the host of MSNBC's
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The Rachel Matto Show. Rachel Matau. Oh, Carara, I'm so glad when we made that decision
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to go bulk at the barber shop where we would always go two for one. I just think it was great for both of us. I
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mean, we were both 24. Who could have foreseen that it would have been the start of our paths in life, right? And we often dress like each
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other, too. And people are always like, "Are you Rachel Matt out?" No, I'm not tall enough. She People don't know Rachel's quite tall. You're
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That's the thing. That's the secret. That's That helps us twin in a way that will help us ultimately commit great
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crimes. That is correct. Because we will be the alibi for one another. We should do crimes. Do we solve crimes
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or do crimes? Yes. Both. Yes. Yes. Yes. All the things. We have so much to
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talk about. This is so good. This is everybody. Let me just say we're going to gay it up for you here a little bit,
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but um we're going to we have a lot to talk about. But how is it going on your show? You're back to once a week. Is
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that correct? Yes. So I'm once a week, Monday nights on MSNBC and then I spend every other day of the week working on stuff that
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people can't see yet. And so it seems like I'm doing nothing, but actually I'm working harder than I've ever worked. So you're not lazy. Like
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I'm not lazy. No. So So you um so you so you work one day a week and can I just ask I'm just
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curious. How do you plan that day? When do you do it on Sunday? I was trying to think when do you plan it and how do you decide because it's the one day. You're
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like the John Stewart does the same thing. the one day both I read I read all week and then I Sunday
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is a full full bore like 10 or 12 hour workday when I'm like read reading intensively and prepping and making
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decisions including about guests and stuff although I don't like to pre-plan guests before the day of the show if I
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don't have to. I don't Right. Because you want it to be fresh. Yeah. Because I'm not I'm not trying to do a weekend review. I'm trying to do a
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good here's here's your Monday newscast. Um, and so I'm I'm never great at like
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lining up the big guest for the big get interview weeks in advance. I just don't do that. So,
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um, but I read all day and then Monday I work all day and that's I mean it's it's kind of it's it's not that different
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from when I was the prep time is not that different from when I was doing five days a week. It's just that my whole Sunday is is dedicated as well.
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Do you feel like you went to you went from one day a week to five during a
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part the first 100 days of the presidency? Yeah. Do you feel like you need to come back and do more? I know a lot of your
00:03:02
viewers think that. I mean, I think doing the 100 days was the right thing to do.
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Um, I think a lot changed in our country very rapidly over those first 100 days and I was glad to be there every day for
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it. I also think it was, you know, MSNBC kind of signaling to the audience like,
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hey, this is this is not a normal presidential transition. And this is potentially if this is going to be a transition from
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one kind of government and one kind of country into another, we need to cover it in a way that is not pretending that
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this is normal. And so I I like the the instinct at the company to ask me to come back and do that to signal that
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this is a special sort of time I think was was correct. Um but I don't I don't want to do five days a week and I won't.
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So and they don't want to. They've moved on. So they moved on. They have gotten more people. Do you ever feel like, "Oh my
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god, something happens and I got to get in there or Oh, yeah, for sure. And you know, and I'm I guest on other people's shows and
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if it ever we ever tip over into special coverage, I'm able to come back at any time and lead that stuff." So, I just I
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think it's a pretty it was hard to arrive at the system that we're in. We had to iterate a bunch of sort of
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different attempts at it before we arrived at this, but I think this I think we're in the right I think we're in the right place. I think this I think
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this is stable and sustainable and this is going to be what it's going to be like for the foreseeable future. Right now, may I ask you, are you
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excited about your spin-off, Averant? What a great name. Versant. Talk to your doctor about um
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you know, results may vary. You could have a rash. I think, you know, in terms of the
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practical impact of it, it's been all kind of upside so far. Yeah. I mean, we're we're hiring. What other
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news organization is hiring tons of reporters and correspondents and editors and we're standing up this whole news
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gathering operation which was funded as part of wellunded as part of the spin and
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in the end once that is stood up we will no longer have to compete with NBC News's properties
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for the news gathering the product of the news gathering organization which we otherwise had to I mean right if it's
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we're all cover if we're all covering the same outbreak of war or whatever it is you know if We're competing with
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Nightly and the Today Show and and Meet the Press and it's the NBC News news gathering organization. We're always
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going to get whatever's left over. In this case, it's all we can apply our own instincts, our own
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queries, our own priorities to getting stuff that we need um from reporters and correspondents. And so,
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it's g it's going to be better once that's all stood up. I like the cut of your jib here because
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a half the people I like that expression. I like to say it a lot. Sounds like there's I like the cut of your jib.
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I didn't even know I had a jib. Everyone has a jib, Rachel. Where? It's a sailing metaphor. A jib. Do you
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ever sail? No, obviously you don't. A jib. It's a more of a rowboat type.
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I like rowboats, too. When I was in um I I went out with someone and they bought me a rowboat once and we called it a
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relation dinghy. Um but we it's not a relationship.
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Anyway, thank you. Thank you. I'm here all week. Um the um one of the things I think is exciting actually I've been do
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I've been doing a few shows on the podcast about what works in media now versus the whole doom the doomness of it
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and I had I had Oliver Darcy on I had Katie Drummond from Wired I had um uh a
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bunch of different people on it and I the whole idea was that things are working like whether it's Medie Hassan
00:06:30
even on the right whether whether you like her or not Megan Kelly there's all this exciting kind of stuff and one of
00:06:36
the MSNBC people either split into two groups, people who are sort of this is the end kind of thing or this is an
00:06:43
opportunity to be entrepreneurial, which I think you're talking about, right? And it's opportunity to make things people
00:06:48
want. It's a first of all, we make a ton of money. Second of all, we're spinning off
00:06:54
with a huge standalone, newly built news gathering organization that is designed
00:07:00
specifically for our purposes and nothing else. We have an incredibly loyal, very large audience. and we've
00:07:06
got and we're and we're universally platformed on a device called the television which Americans use despite
00:07:13
the media reports to the contrary. And so I I just feel like I'm super
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super happy to see in particular the success of some of the people you just described like Wired has just been
00:07:24
killing it. Um Oliver Darcy doing his status media stuff is great. It's better than anybody else who's doing the um
00:07:32
media beat from any of the legacy news organizations. It's not just writing down what the big say. Exactly. And that is forcing I actually
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think it's forcing media reporting in legacy news organizations to kind of up their game a little bit because he's so
00:07:46
scrappy and and good at it. And and I and you know I I think there's a lot that's positive. The business side of it
00:07:52
is a challenge for everybody, but it's also unique to everybody. And MSNBC on that side has a bunch of unique
00:07:58
advantages. We're in a spin that is very well funded that is you know once it's going to be
00:08:03
public shares eventually when Versent does that that means that's going to sort of lock into a system where there's
00:08:09
several years where they can't you know do anything dramatic like sell us or anything like that but right now
00:08:15
on time is not yet no we make a lot of money we have a big audience and um and we're we're growing
00:08:21
substantively in terms of what we can offer the audience I just think that's that's nothing to sneeze at and I'm I'm
00:08:26
I'm excited to see how it develops Good. Because I think that's a good attitude. I think if you sit around and doom scroll about your your industry and
00:08:33
they're just not true. There's all kinds of entrepreneurial stuff and it gives you the opportunity if you pull away from bigger organizations to to like you
00:08:40
have to make stuff people want. Anyway, speaking of wait before we move on from that, you yourself are a media mogul.
00:08:47
Car that's that's but what do you feel like you've
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wired you've figured out what makes the most sense for you in terms of owning stuff and multiplatforms and the kind of
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partnerships that you have well Rachel if I if I were ad like I I I helped Dave Jorgensson leave the
00:09:05
Washington Post because he he's the one who makes all those videos and he also was on on the podcast um because he's
00:09:10
different he's doing videos and trying to create a video oriented Tik Tok oriented media company uh yes I feel
00:09:16
much better as I often say I was a terrible employee. I was like, "You [ __ ] idiot." All the time. And I I
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was tired of saying that to people, especially a certain kind of guy, right? It was often a guy. Um, and sometimes a
00:09:29
woman. And I just was like, I'll make what I'll make. And if people want to eat it, they can eat it. Like, and then I get to make all the decisions. I also
00:09:35
own everything. If I were you, I would own everything. You do own a lot of your stuff, Rachel, but I would own like
00:09:40
everything I make. And and that way I can make decisions. And then you partner with people. In my case, it's Fox Media.
00:09:47
But, you know, over time, for example, in Pivot, Scott and I have gotten a bigger piece of the pie because it's our
00:09:52
pie, right? And but it's great to have partners that help you do things like advertising and distribution and
00:09:58
producing that you may not want to do or they can do better. And so, it creates a really great ecosystem of everyone's
00:10:04
interests are aligned and and when you own it, you can make decisions that are both temporally
00:10:10
specific and specific in terms of equity and all that other stuff. um right and control as as needed, but you can enter
00:10:17
and leave those partnerships while you still own everything. Right. And that's what I'm advising everybody like everyone who like I get a
00:10:22
lot of like when they wrote that very nice piece in the New York Times about me which was a little too nice for Rachel, I'll be honest with you. Um it
00:10:29
was a it was a big You're the backlash to your own profile. I myself I'm like come on, you couldn't find one bad thing. Um I I'll give you a
00:10:37
list of people who don't like me. Um uh but they're always blind quotes so they're not any good. Um, you know, I I
00:10:43
would say one of the things that was important in that piece was getting people inspired. But one of the reporter
00:10:48
came to me and said, who's lovely, Ben Mullen, and he said, um, you know, I've heard you're being paid to advise people
00:10:54
to leave media. Like, I get a fee. I was like, if I got a fee, I'd be so [ __ ] rich. I have like people call me right
00:11:00
now on my telephone. I have seven people who want to leave media and want to try something. And so what I try to do is
00:11:06
the ones I think are going to be good, I say, "Here's what here's what it takes." Like a Jim Aosta or whoever, you got to
00:11:12
be entrepreneurial. You've got to be you've got to work harder than you did because it's all for you, right? And I
00:11:19
think that's the hard part. And some people who come to me, I'm like, "Yeah, you should stay where you are. You should stay where you are."
00:11:25
You're giving people the the Rosetta Stone here to interpret your advice in future. It's only a few people, but you
00:11:32
know, like I just was with Dina Brown and she's done amazing stuff at her Substack and I think her writing is better. Uh, uh, Paul Krugman, I think,
00:11:39
has really come alive. He's suddenly really great. Um, there's all kinds of people and I think you once you find
00:11:45
your voice, it's if it's really good, people will buy it. And you don't like that. And it's all and media is not all one
00:11:51
thing. I mean, one I I have a production company now in addition to being an employee at MSNBC, but at that
00:11:57
production company, I'm not doing cable news. at that production company. I'm doing documentaries, scripted shows, not
00:12:03
actually podcasts are all through MSNBC. So, it's the documentaries, scripted shows. I'm producing a play with them,
00:12:10
some other stuff. Um, feature feature films. Um, but that's all it's all
00:12:15
different. So, my employee status is podcasts and TV shows at MSNBC, which is
00:12:21
all the stuff for which I'm still best known. Everything else that I'm doing, I'm very low on the learning curve and
00:12:27
I'm figuring out how to do it. And I don't know if I will succeed at any of those things, but I'm trying. But I'm doing that on my own steam.
00:12:32
Which one do you like better? Shh, don't tell MSNBC. I like them both. I'm better at one than
00:12:38
I am at the other. I mean, I'm You're used to it. Yeah. And so, um, but I I like working
00:12:44
at something that I'm not great at in learning. So, that's what I'm The problem is is that I
00:12:49
I can't Once you're better at something, it's easier to turn it on and off to compartmentalize. Now, I am working, now
00:12:55
I am not. When you're not good at something, there's the constant panic about failure, which means you work 24 hours a day, which means your girlfriend
00:13:01
gets mad at you. I've heard, wait a minute, I've heard that. I have that issue with my wife,
00:13:09
too. Speaking of Hollywood, I just want to note the uh the New York Times just uh called my alltime there's a couple
00:13:15
things and I do want to get into the books you're writing, but my all-time favorite movie, Roadhouse, the best bad movie. I don't know if you know that's
00:13:21
my all-time favorite. Oh wow. Movie Roadhouse was Patrick Sees, not the Jake Gyllenhaal. That was pathetic.
00:13:26
Was Was the Jake Gyllenhaal is the remake? The remake. And was in the Patrick Sui version. Was there also a lot of shirtlessness?
00:13:33
Yes, of course. Obviously, he did Tai Chi in the shirtlessness. Are you kidding? Then it was mostly him, by the
00:13:39
way. It was not the ladies. There was a lot of shirtless ladies also, but he was the the prime piece of beefcake there
00:13:45
going on. And I love that movie largely because of the lines like we can do this the hard way or the easy way. Just stuff
00:13:51
like that. um which is I I I say that a lot and no one was saying it's a
00:13:57
profound thing. People go look where's that in the Bible? I I love Patrick sees even such a great fire that I don't understand it myself.
00:14:03
The late Have you ever seen the um amazingly like crazy stars TV show called High Town
00:14:11
which is about drugs in Province Town? Yes. The lesbian. Hello. Hello. So, do what about in uh the the pimp the
00:14:18
terrible like evil shirtless pimp character sees and there's no reason in the entire
00:14:25
there's there's a lot of things about Hightown that are inexplicable. But one of them is that why is the pimp shirt shirtless? Like the pimp is shirtless at
00:14:32
night. The pimp is shirtless during the day. I'm convinced the pimp is always shirtless because he is sees because that is Patrick sees. You're
00:14:39
right. Yes. It's a meta. Yes. Yeah. Tom Cruz always takes his shirt
00:14:45
off, too. There's several actors. But Pat, in Patrick sees case, I see the point. I get the point. I I understand
00:14:50
why there's no shirt. Um, let me ask you a question. Do you have a best bad movie
00:14:55
or show you like lately? I got a I like High Town. I got to say I
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uh Yeah, you know, I'm I'm a real old lesbian who doesn't see a lot of movies
00:15:06
and stuff. Like my favorite movie is Suddenly, which is an assassination
00:15:11
movie starring uh Frank Sinatra that all takes place in one room and really ought to have been a play. Like I I Yeah,
00:15:18
Frank back to Yes. Like that's my era. I love Patton.
00:15:23
I love Lawrence of Arabia. Like I I'm a lot older than I seem. I was born 74
00:15:29
years old. Excellent. That is from the beginning. From the get from the beginning. I ca I came out nearsighted.
00:15:35
I was 37. interesting. I was born I was like here's how we're going to do things. Um but uh 37 and real bossy. Um
00:15:44
so you so so suddenly I'm going to watch that now. Why did you It's really good. I I I like political thrillers is kind
00:15:51
of my thing. I like psychological thriller stuff and um you know it's great. It's really good. Frank Sinatra actually did some I loved him in the
00:15:57
first Manurian candidate. No, he's great. That's a creepy movie. Angela Lansbury is so good in that movie.
00:16:03
Oh god, she's fantastic. She's so good. I love an evil like a totally like like
00:16:09
like villainous to the core. Pretty lady. Pretty lady. She is should be a villain.
00:16:15
Has she ever been a villain? That's sort of in that genre. Hello Julie Andrews of the Pivot
00:16:21
audience. Julie Andrew. I'm sure she's listening very closely right now. Although I do have a lot of
00:16:26
weird celebrity fans, which is strange. I'm sure you have a million of them. They love the Rachel Maddo. Um, let me
00:16:32
uh when I when I let me give you one recommendation which I every show see Hunting Wives, please on Netflix do
00:16:38
yourself. This is a new reality series. No, it is not. It is a it is series Malin Arian and Britney Snowar. And it
00:16:46
is about MAGA MAGA ladies in Texas who shoot a lot of guns. Uh, and they're
00:16:52
very Christian and very MAGA and Trumpy and they dress up in what you'd imagine Texas ladies would dress up in. And it's
00:16:58
they're all lesbians. Let me just suddenly they take this turn into lesbian and you're like but then they do
00:17:05
it too much. You're like stop with the lesbian like there's way too much and then there's murder. It's not you just like reading a lesbian
00:17:12
vibe into it. They actually in the show. No, my friend. No, it's it's moving
00:17:17
towards softcore porn in a way that's really good. I I actually was like you need to stop. You need we need some more plot here.
00:17:24
Like stop making out you two. And Malin dives into the role. dives into the role
00:17:29
like you've never seen. So, when Scott did his last episode of Pivot before Scott Free August, his
00:17:35
advice to your you and your co-hosts while he was away was he wanted a lot more lesbian content.
00:17:41
There we go. And now here you are. We've done it. You're bringing me new lesbian content. I didn't have I'm just telling you just text me after
00:17:48
you watch it. All right. I'll trust me on this one. All right. We've got a lot to now we're getting to serious stuff because Trump is having quite a week
00:17:55
with his federal takeover of DC. a review of the Smithsonian, a meeting with Putin. First, you know, I am a huge
00:18:01
fan of your work on uh the the 30s and 40s, all the stuff you've done. I just relisted to prequil, which I adore, and
00:18:09
all the characters, and I'm assuming that's what you're making movies about because there's so many great characters there. Um, we've been hearing Trump
00:18:14
using this America first line for years, but it's coming into play more than ever in his second term as if it's fresh and
00:18:20
new. He slapped the label on foreign policy, trade, immigration. He told Atlantic a few months ago that the
00:18:25
America first means whatever he says it does. He said that he was the one that developed it. Obviously not. So in both
00:18:32
Ultra, your podcast and your which we you've been on uh on talking about this in your book Prequel. Um you you talk a
00:18:38
lot about this and the deep deep roots of this what's happening now in the US which we have forgotten about in a lot
00:18:45
of ways. So talk a little bit about the backstory and this rhetoric at this moment in time. So the America First Committee was a
00:18:51
real thing. Um, it only existed for about 15 months, but it was 15 really important months. It was from, I think,
00:18:58
September of 1940 until December of 41, Pearl Harbor. Um, but they formed, it
00:19:05
was one of the largest anti-war organizations ever in the US. And they formed to basically try to block FDR
00:19:11
from affording any assistance to Britain when Britain was fending off a Nazi invasion. And um their basic idea, at
00:19:19
least their public facing idea, was that we were impregnable. We were protected by our oceans. Nobody was ever going to
00:19:26
attack us. And who cares if the Nazis took all of Europe? Um Europe kind of sucks anyway.
00:19:31
Why should we give money to them? Why should we shouldn't give money to them? And if we give any money to them, they're going to plow every plow under every fourth
00:19:38
American boy. It'll get us into the it'll get us into the into the war. And we don't want to be in another war after
00:19:43
World War I. That was the public facing line. The problem the America First Committee had is that even as they were
00:19:48
huge and they had all these really respectable people associated with them was founded by the guy who was the heir
00:19:54
to the Quaker Oats fortune fortune. Um they kept slipping into kind of liking
00:20:01
the Nazis and blaming everything on the Jews. Um and the American public
00:20:07
eventually came to see that especially when Charles Lindberg who was the most famous man in America not named
00:20:13
Roosevelt. uh when Lindberg um became their spokesman and started it flat out saying this is just the Jews trying to
00:20:20
get us into the war and the Jews are the big problem in the world. So the America first committee um I mean has a as a as
00:20:26
a short very pungent history and then what the what the idea of America first became after that is
00:20:33
even worse. After the America First Committee disbanded following Pearl Harbor, we then later got other
00:20:38
iterations of that concept like the America First Party which in 1944
00:20:44
campaigned explicitly on the promise of deporting andor sterilizing all Jews in
00:20:51
America. Mhm. So that's the history of America first which they're absolutely and there were senators that put these
00:20:58
things forced the steriliz forc sterilization of Jews of blacks of things like that the insidious nature of
00:21:04
it if even if it wasn't called America first was the thing I was thinking of is the idea that first of all there was
00:21:10
Nazi infiltration in in our um in our country very significantly through
00:21:16
Congress and also throughout media and everything else. Um but that it was it
00:21:22
was much more insidious America first in a lot of ways because it all things attached to it. Yeah. I mean that phrase that plowing
00:21:28
under every fourth American boy that was um that originated in Berlin um in
00:21:34
Gerbles's office and then it made its way into the um speeches of an anti- FDR
00:21:42
America first American politician. And there was a huge one of the things that Ultra and Prequel are about is um this
00:21:50
this huge multi-million dollar at the time which makes it I mean in in in 1940s dollars multi-million dollar
00:21:57
secret Nazi propaganda effort that was shunted through Congress. They used the Congressional Franking privilege to mail
00:22:04
out millions of pieces of Nazi propaganda to American homes using
00:22:09
members of the Senate and members of Congress who were on the Nazi payroll um in the leadup to World War II. And
00:22:15
it's a forgotten history, I think, because of World War II. It seems to over, you know, that overshadows
00:22:21
everything that went before. But we had a we had a we had a big Nazi sympathizing and American fascist
00:22:28
movement here in this country that wanted us not to be in that war after the war through McCarthy which is
00:22:33
what the second the second season of Ultra is about. Correct. I mean that it didn't stop.
00:22:39
So this never stopped. This is one of the things that I took away from your book is that so much as you know it
00:22:44
begins with goals who was you know I think they had stolen some ideas from us
00:22:50
and Jim Crow Mhm. and or borrowed or whatever and thought that was a great thing and then
00:22:55
they put it back here and continued that that's what the the lost history part I
00:23:00
mean the the biggest figure there's two figures in your books that I think are so McCarthy gets all the attention right
00:23:06
always because he's such a tragic and horrible figure but two people I thought was Lawrence Dennis
00:23:13
um and oh John Ragi two opposites similar Lawrence Dennis was considered to be the
00:23:19
the intellectual godfather of American fascism. Um, and was like he was
00:23:25
receiving money from the Germans. Um, and they brought him over to like observe Nerburgg rallies and blah blah
00:23:32
blah. Um, he was connected to all sorts of American politicians and to these fascist movements including the violent
00:23:38
fascist movements. And then OJ John Ragi on the other side and he was also half African-American.
00:23:44
Correct. He was he was secretly black and and passed until the very end of his life.
00:23:50
while meanwhile, you know, articulating the beautiful fascist American future,
00:23:55
right? That the Nazis, when you say that they got ideas from Jim Crow, the Nazis um used
00:24:02
they they actually sent an agent to the University of Arkansas law school to study Jim co Jim Crow um um the the
00:24:10
legal the liinal legal set up, how to set it up. And then they used it for the
00:24:15
as the basis for the Nermberg laws. um the idea of secondass citizenship based
00:24:20
on racial purity. So that's on on the sort of on the dark
00:24:25
side. And then Ojan Ragi was a wonderkined um prosecutor who brought
00:24:31
sedition charges against Dennis and against these American fascists who were
00:24:37
both working with the Nazis and trying to undermine the American war effort. and he was all but destroyed right
00:24:44
for having done it including being fired um in the justice department for having had the temerity to name the members of
00:24:51
Congress who were involved and write a report that got lost really to history for 25 years
00:24:56
yeah that's and then it didn't matter by then because everyone had moved on right correct it wasn't a they didn't publish it till
00:25:01
the 60s I got to tell you the the resonance to today it's your that prequal
00:25:06
particularly sticks with has stuck with me so hard because it feels like there's so many links to today and and one of
00:25:12
the things you have these heroes like O John Roger or Leon Lewis um in Los an Leon Lewis is that right in Los Angeles
00:25:18
who also did all this sort of secret spy work against these people against these these fascists and mil militias and
00:25:25
things like that. Um who is that today and could you link them to what's
00:25:30
happening now? Is you you sound like your is there a problem? Yes, there's a noisy man but go ahead.
00:25:37
Yeah, I just saw you kill him with your eyes. It was amazing.
00:25:43
Um I don't I don't think there are exact parallels, but I do think that there are
00:25:49
sort of inspirational currents. So, um one story that hasn't had a lot of attention that I've sort of been
00:25:55
watching percolate recently is that there's been a lot of um stealing from
00:26:01
armories and military bases. That's been happening recently. That was something that happened uh in the leadup to World
00:26:08
War II as well as violent fascist groups like the Silver Shirts and the Christian Front and others um not only recruited
00:26:16
from the military and from the National Guard, but also used essentially insider
00:26:21
threat people inside the military to steal US military weapons um for the use
00:26:28
in what they hoped would be a violent overthrow of the US government. Um, and so that happened, that's happening now
00:26:35
very sort of quietly. It's only getting a little bit of attention. That happened there. That was in part what led Leon
00:26:40
Lewis, who was a World War I veteran, to get other World War I veterans, German American World War I veterans, to go
00:26:46
infiltrate those groups to figure out what was happening. They could not get law enforcement interested in it because
00:26:52
these guys proclaimed themselves to be anti-communists. And so therefore, law enforcement liked
00:26:58
the idea of them. They couldn't get law enforcement interested. So they pursued it. and pursued it and pursued it themselves. They publicized their
00:27:04
findings. They ultimately went to US Navy intelligence which was willing to prosecute them in part because it was
00:27:09
military facilities that are being burgled in order to get these guys their weapons. So that sort of intrapidity by a by a
00:27:17
self-styled civilian spy. I don't know that we've got Yeah. I don't know that
00:27:22
we've got that sort of with singular hero right now. But when I see people who are building apps and building
00:27:31
online networks to watch what ICE is doing and to monitor effectively the secret police operations that we've got
00:27:37
going right now, I see some of those same instincts sort of in the American character. Yeah, you were saying they aren't the
00:27:44
same. I mean, right now, for example, Trump, let's go right to this. Trump says he's looking to extend the 30-day federal takeover of Washington DC's
00:27:50
police and could bypass Congress, declaring a national emergency. I guess he could decide what a national emergency is. His comments come as
00:27:57
National Guard troops arrive in DC with 800 guards and 500 federal agents set to be deployed in total. They're often in
00:28:03
places that are very loud, although they're over on 14th Street where they're being pummeled with sandwiches.
00:28:09
Um that guy for hurling the sandwich. I love it. I'm like I would I would I
00:28:16
feel like I wish I had done that. Um DC Mayor Mirror Bowser is calling all of this an authoritarian push. Although uh
00:28:23
she initially said the city could benefit from it, she's being a little bit quiet about it. Uh US attorney for
00:28:29
DC, Janine Piro, uh she of the the box of wine wrote in a Washington Post op-ed
00:28:35
that she's working to overturn some local laws so juvenile offenders would be prosecuted. I just, you know, a lot
00:28:41
of the stuff you wrote about was implicit. It was quietly being done. Although the silver shirts, they appeared, all these people appeared in
00:28:47
Madison Square Garden. They had all kinds of rallies. It was very explicit, but nothing like it wasn't the
00:28:53
government doing this. Um, now he's also focusing his attention on DC's landscaping, saying we need to redo the
00:28:59
grass with the finest grasses. I agree with that. I'm going to agree. We have shitty grass. I think America can actually come
00:29:06
together around the idea of fine grass. Fine grass. Yeah. Uh, so talk to me a little bit about what's happening here
00:29:11
because this is explicit. In the time you were writing about it, the government itself wasn't doing things like that or was in a way in certain
00:29:19
areas like concentration camps and things like that for the Japanese. Yeah. I mean, fascist groups in the
00:29:25
United States before World War II wanted an authoritarian takeover of our country
00:29:30
in which there would not be the American system of government anymore. There would be a strong man leader who would
00:29:36
um uh run things uh at his own whim with an with autocratic capabilities and
00:29:43
would um serve the white gentile population above all else and kick
00:29:48
everybody else out of the country. That's what fascist groups before World War II wanted in this country, which is why they wanted us to not only to to
00:29:56
either not fight the Nazis or to fight with the Nazis rather than and they didn't like democracy
00:30:01
explicitly. They talked about it. Lawrence Dennis did. They thought democracy was decadent and
00:30:06
it was a way liberals and women um gays, women and well minorities of any kind to
00:30:12
have any say. Like they they don't these are folks who don't want don't believe in sharing power with people different
00:30:18
than them. They think that they should be able to have a say on their own terms of of what happens not only in
00:30:25
government but in everything. And so now in our generation, in our time, we have
00:30:31
an elected authoritarian leader who doesn't just want to control the executive branch. He wants to control,
00:30:38
you know, universities, their curriculum and their admissions and their, you know, student discipline policies. And
00:30:46
he wants to decide what economists work at what banks. And he wants to control
00:30:51
uh businesses. He wants to control the Smithsonian. He wants to control high school sports. He wants to control the
00:30:57
legal profession. He wants to control, you know, what's on television and what's in the news. And guess what?
00:31:04
Like they're this is this is what they were after. Um and this is a this is a president who does not see bounds on the
00:31:11
presidency set by democratic processes, but he also doesn't see bounds on the presidency set by what counts as
00:31:17
government. He wants to autocratically rule the country um in every aspect of
00:31:23
the country. Both to shut down the possibility of criticizing or opposing him, but also because he believes that he should run that he should he should
00:31:30
be handing out the Kenn Kennedy senator honors and he should be administering the police force of Washington DC and he
00:31:36
should be choosing this CEO of Intel and he should be setting the recipe for coke and that's what they were after. And do
00:31:44
you find this to be are you are you more alarmed by any part of it or is it's part of the same idea? And for people
00:31:49
who don't know, the White House plans to review the Smithsonian Museum Expeditions, materials, and operations
00:31:54
before America's 250th anniversary next year. The administration sent a letter to Smithsonian this week explaining how
00:32:00
the museum content is in line with Trump's restoring truth and sanity to American history executive order. Um and
00:32:07
and recently the National Museum of American History removed a placard that mentioned Trump's two impeachments which
00:32:12
has since been replaced. Um is there one thing like this is like a cornucopia of
00:32:17
stuff for you to focus on? What do you look what do you think is the thing that troubles you the most or is it in whole?
00:32:24
Is it the takeover of the city um or the attempted takeover of the city or is it
00:32:29
the museum? I assume it's all of it but is there something you find most disturbing?
00:32:34
Well, it's all of a piece um in the sense that I I guess I have two answers
00:32:40
to this question. One is that what Trump is doing is so textbook. It is like there's not anything that's very
00:32:46
surprising about what he's doing and we now know who he is and what his intentions are. It's not there isn't going to be a big reveal. Oh, he has
00:32:53
authoritarian inclinations for our intentions. Like we now know who he is. He is he is Victor Orban. He is Vladimir
00:32:59
Putin. He is Duterte. He is Burlesone. you know, pick pick your pick your poison. We they all do the same thing,
00:33:06
right? We we're only lucky that Trump isn't taking his shirt off the photos. Um but so that to me, sorry, I just put
00:33:15
that image right there. I just totally saw his chest. He's like sad. Anyway,
00:33:22
he's not sees I take this [ __ ] from Twazy, but not from this guy. Go ahead.
00:33:29
Um, but be because he's predictable, because he is playing two type and it is
00:33:35
a type and it's a very knowable thing. I feel like there's only so much value in focusing on every new thing he does.
00:33:42
Um, because it's predictable what he's going to do. We know what this is. I it makes me more interested in the question
00:33:48
of the the country's durability um and how we're responding and the strength of
00:33:53
our institutions in standing up to it. That's that's one thing. But the thing I'm most worried about is the is the
00:33:58
military the military the meaning the the takeover of the city or well I mean he's using the military to
00:34:05
project force inward you know domestically everywhere they've you know
00:34:10
immigration enforcement doesn't just look militarized. They're integrating with the military. They're building
00:34:16
these immigrant prison camps um with no due process. And a prison with no due process is a camp. Um
00:34:23
they're they're building them on on military bases. They've got hundreds of miles in of territory in Arizona and New
00:34:30
Mexico in Texas they're calling military zones where they're giving US active duty troops the authority to stop and
00:34:36
search and arrest people on US soil. He threw himself a military parade for his
00:34:42
own birthday. They're using military flights, incredibly expensive military flights inexplicably for deportation
00:34:49
flights. We've just found out that they've got a they're building they're they're considering building a new rapid
00:34:55
reaction force where they've got 600 troops on one hour standby 24 hours a day to go deploy into American cities.
00:35:02
They put the National Guard and the US Marines in LA and now they've got the National Guard and he's threatening active duty troops in DC. I mean he is
00:35:09
re-imagining the use of the US military as his own Ptorian Guard facing his
00:35:16
critics and facing his citizens and normalizing he's already in this many months normalized the
00:35:23
presence of American troops in American cities with us and when I think of any country I go to
00:35:28
where there's troops on the streets I'm always like I'd like to get out of this country right that's the like it it makes you feel I just interviewed Jason
00:35:34
Stanley who you know from Yale who left this country he's written about propaganda and fashion I'm sure you know him well. And one of the things he said
00:35:41
is he's he's sort of a a kind of a clottish playbook of a fascist. And I
00:35:46
was like, well, does it matter if he's clownish and cartoonish? If he's effective in some way. Do you find all
00:35:52
this effective? Well, he's doing it right. I mean, the the thing that makes him effective is
00:35:58
not any genius on his part or even any ambition or speed on his part. The thing that makes him effective is the um
00:36:06
cowardice and collapse of American institutions that should be saying no. Do you see that's what that's the that's
00:36:11
you see any heroes emerging? Yes. Uh the heroes that are emerging are
00:36:17
emerging from not the leadership class but the people. I mean the fact that there's protests against Trump on every
00:36:22
day of the week in every state in the country is important to me. You feature that on your show quite a bit which I thought was great.
00:36:29
Yeah. And I'm doing that not not because um I think that's what everybody's
00:36:35
talking about and I want to get in on that conversation. I recognize that it's not getting a ton of attention, but I do think that shows you that it the people
00:36:42
in this country, you look at the opinion polls and you look at the ongoing protests, especially the small protests
00:36:48
in red states and stuff against him or individuals when someone's taking someone away, they start filming. I find
00:36:54
those really powerful. like some like lady coming out of yoga like suddenly saying what the [ __ ] are you doing to
00:37:00
this man? Yes. Which is interesting. Exactly. And that instinct in the American people is really healthy and is
00:37:06
unafraid and is uncowouded and is repulsed by this. And that's why Trump has such terrible approval ratings. He's
00:37:13
upside down even with men, even with you know with the number the way he's dropped with young people. It's just a
00:37:19
sort of a a stunning drop. And that to me is very important. the the the the
00:37:26
crisis that we've got in our country is a crisis of elite cowardice. The law firms, the universities, the
00:37:33
politicians, um and leaders in particular, Rachel, I mean, I would make the argument they weren't I, you know,
00:37:40
they're saying that universities were woke. I'm like, if you met a university president before this all happened, they they hated those professors. They hated
00:37:47
law firms hated those, you know, pro bono people on their staff. And I don't know, I just never
00:37:53
thought they were particularly courageous, but they're big, prestigious
00:37:59
um institutions with a lot of capital and a lot of connections and a lot of money and a lot of people who have a lot
00:38:06
of room to maneuver without ever putting themselves in real danger. And those are the people that are failing us. And I
00:38:11
actually think that if we're going to like kind of protest and try to put steel in the spines of people and try to
00:38:16
appeal to conscience, which is what non-violent direct action does, um some of that protest should be probably
00:38:23
usefully strategically directed at the institutions, not just one of the things Jason was saying is one of the things the civil rights
00:38:29
things work is is those people became empathetic given the visuals of civil
00:38:35
rights, right? The the the hoses and everything else. And you've got to he was wondering if the immigration raids
00:38:41
will make everyone else who is comfortable angry enough or empathetic really enough
00:38:48
in a lot of ways if you think about it. Yeah. But you need to see not just the rage, you need to see people standing up
00:38:55
against them. So what you remembered about that woman in the yoga clothes in the parking lot there yelling at those guys was not just
00:39:01
what was happening to those guys that was that had that had that had inspired her to action. It was seeing her be
00:39:07
courageous. Even the sandwich guy, I'm not afraid that stuck with you. Joking aside, I was when he did that, I'm like, "Oh, dear." And then I thought, "Well,
00:39:13
good for him." Like, you know, and I was talking about it with my my wife was saying, "What should I do now?" Like,
00:39:18
"Should I go throw a sandwich? Should I, you know, get her myself, you know, a t they're in front of Taté. That's the
00:39:24
best part. Like they're just like like grab us their sandwich and throw it at them. But what do you what is the action
00:39:29
you take?" I think is a lot of people are trying to figure out of those people who become empathetic to what what's
00:39:36
happening. Yeah. I mean, I don't I don't think the sandwiches deserve this. I mean, I think sandwiches deserve to be treated with
00:39:42
respect and that, you know, like I'm sure that guy that was like probably a meatball sub like with exactly the right
00:39:48
kind of cheese and just the right I mean, he's pro he probably had that stupid.
00:39:54
I'm sorry. You shouldn't attack police. Let me just say Pivot does not encourage police,
00:39:59
but if you insist a sandwich is probably the best. No, no throwing anything. Rachel and I
00:40:06
do not recommend throwing sandwiches. So, if only for the sake of
00:40:11
only for the sake of um like a bite before you throw that thing. I mean, we've we've got one of the things that's
00:40:17
different between now and what um Americans were facing in the in the 30s and 40s
00:40:23
is that we have the example of the civil rights movement of the 50s and 60s
00:40:29
to show the the the apogee, the moral apogee of what it means to take
00:40:34
incredibly difficult action against incredibly violent, entrenched opponents and to win on the
00:40:41
strength of your moral case. And that is that's a moral cornerstone of our
00:40:47
country and we would be remiss to not learn from that in this moment. I mean there's there's not going to be a civil war in this country. There's not going
00:40:53
to be a violent confrontation. There's I mean all Trump all Trump wants is for somebody to you know throw another sandwich or do something that they can
00:40:59
consider to be a a crime and use as a provocation. Um nonviolent direct action
00:41:05
gets the goods always and it's our American inheritance and um it's the
00:41:11
thing that will ultimately push them out. or and also time. Let's go to a quick break. When we come back, Trump's
00:41:16
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quint.com/pivot. Rachel, we're back. President Trump and Vladimir Putin are about to meet in
00:42:36
Alaska and Trump is warning that Russia will face quote very severe consequences if Putin doesn't agree to stop the war
00:42:42
in Ukraine. The White House downplayed expectations for the summit earlier this week, describing it as a listening exercise. He said talking about feeling
00:42:49
people feeling people out, which was relatively creepy in the FC up out
00:42:54
feeling out feeling out feeling feeling he might feel them up. That's grotesque. Um, Trump also, you've already gotten
00:43:00
like lots of pictures in my head and I don't appreciate it. Trump also spoke with European leaders and Ukraine's
00:43:06
President Zinsky ahead of the summit. European leaders asked Trump not to strike a unilateral peace deal, so gave him some key points of negotiation.
00:43:13
Sinsky said he warned Trump that Putin was bluffing on pursuing peace. Obviously, he's called this meeting
00:43:18
Putin's personal victory. What What are you looking for? I just had David Remick on last the last episode and he said,
00:43:25
you know, as long as he doesn't [ __ ] up or give anything away right away, it'll be a victory. Like, if he if he has a
00:43:32
second meeting, if there's a and he's been talking that way recently. I mean, I this is all just so
00:43:39
embarrassing. You know what I mean? I mean, yeah. Was Jimmy Fallon had that very good line
00:43:44
where he was like, "Oh, listening and exercise, two of Trump's favorite things.
00:43:51
Do you remember the um the red line, Obama and the red line with Syria?
00:43:58
So, this is like 2012, I think it was. Um Obama gave a speech where um he
00:44:04
described um Bashar al-Assad potentially using chemical weapons as a as a red
00:44:09
line. That that's how the United States would treat it. And then in 2013, Assad absolutely did that. And Obama responded
00:44:16
by saying, "All right, I'm going to Congress to get authorization for the use of military force against Syria."
00:44:22
And um Congress debated it a little bit and then it kind of looked like it wasn't going to pass. And then it felt
00:44:28
and then they didn't do it. They didn't they did not pass the authorization for the use of military force. That went down in political commentary, common
00:44:37
wisdom as like Obama was such a wuss. He blew it on that red line thing. That was
00:44:43
such an embarrassment. First of all, Obama didn't do anything wrong there. He went for he went to Congress for an authorization for the use of military
00:44:49
force, which is how it works in our system, and it was Congress that blew it. But that that supposed failure, which wasn't a
00:44:56
failure at all, by Obama. 12, 13 years later, people still talk about that as
00:45:01
like a a a nay a terrible thing about the Obama administration. Well, meanwhile,
00:45:07
here's Trump. Wasn't it going to be like if by Friday the war wasn't over? It was
00:45:13
going to be the end of days for Putin and there was going to be sanctions and
00:45:18
there was going to be tariffs. Oh, that's the worst thing in the world. It was going to be all of this terrible stuff. And instead, what does Putin get?
00:45:23
Putin gets a trip to Alaska. Go visit the former the former Russian
00:45:28
Empire and a one-on-one meeting. Trump will fly as far as you're flying to come
00:45:34
have a one-on-one man-to-man summit with you. The first time that you've been in this country except for the UN since 2007. And we get to talk about the war
00:45:42
in Ukraine without Ukraine here. I mean, that's I mean, talk about talk about a red line moment. I mean, I
00:45:48
think it's what I'm just worried that we don't end up in the post press conference with Trump in his lap or or
00:45:54
or like delicately like touching his hair, you know, or like cupping his face, spooning
00:46:02
him. What would you consider a success? What would you Is there no success here? It's already given away. The success here
00:46:08
would be if the US government arrived at this summit which has been
00:46:13
put together on what four days notice bilateral summit between the American and Russian president. If we arrived at
00:46:20
this meeting and then somebody opened a door from a supply closet and Vladimir Zilinsky walked out and sat down and
00:46:27
Trump said, "You guys talk. I'll be right outside this door." That would be a victory. Right. That but as if
00:46:32
I'd give him the Nobel Peace Prize for that. I I I well I don't know that they allow us to vote, but I I mean Trump is
00:46:39
the the right word here is lick spittle. He is so afraid of Vladimir Putin. He is
00:46:46
so afraid of him he will do absolutely anything. I mean we've got a 35% tariff
00:46:51
on Canada and Russia has what percent tariff? Right. Russia is mysteriously missing
00:46:59
mysteriously missing from the whole tariffs on even uninhabited islands that only have penguins but not
00:47:06
Russia this guy and these and the the way the media responds to Trump as if his word is his
00:47:13
bond right oh Trump is explaining that he now has a new feeling about Putin and
00:47:18
he's very upset within oh he's very disappointed him he's really changed his tune I think he's soured on Putin really
00:47:26
Watch what he does, not what he says. He's literally in the man's pants, right? And there's no there's no distance here.
00:47:33
There's no distance between them. So, you think just the fact that he's flying there is just it's already given away.
00:47:39
This is something that no American president has done in 18 years. In many countries in the world, if Vladimir Putin stepped foot on their soil, he'd
00:47:45
be arrested and dragged off to the Hague. This is this is a an abject
00:47:50
humiliation for the United States of America and for the US presidency that we will be reading about for 75 years.
00:47:57
So what is the best thing that could come out of this short
00:48:02
of Zilinski coming out of the supply closet? Right. What did the um janitor say when he
00:48:08
jumped out of the supply closet? What supplies?
00:48:14
Sorry. Oh my god. No. Um I'm sorry. What is that? That's not even a dad. That's a dad joke. That's a That's a bad dad joke. Like a
00:48:20
step dad joke. Um anything good. Anything? No. No, I don't. No, I don't. I mean,
00:48:27
the what the Ukrainians say is nothing about Ukraine without Ukraine. And so if this is being negotiated, this is be
00:48:33
like if you're like getting a divorce or something and the person from whom you're getting a divorce
00:48:39
is going through the court proceedings without you. Like how do you how do you think it's going to how do you think
00:48:44
your side of the divorce is you know you think you're going to get your alimony? You think you're going to get your custody agreement?
00:48:49
No. Like this is this there's nothing there's nothing good about this. I will also say that Trump
00:48:57
always always after he talks to Putin, although now he admits he talks to Putin without telling anybody that he's doing
00:49:03
so. Every time we know he talks to Putin, he comes out after those discussions and starts paritting a new
00:49:09
Russian line just like we're going to plow the boys under, right? Where it went from Gobles to senators, US senators.
00:49:17
He he repeats any he's absolutely he he he will just parrot whatever Putin tells
00:49:22
him to say, which he has done. I mean, back to Helsinki, back to the very beginning. And he also adopts whatever position was
00:49:29
last presented to him. Mhm. And so in this case, he'll adopt whatever whatever Putin says. Have you ever
00:49:35
thought of calling him on the phone, Rachel, yourself? He there is a cell phone that he answers. Yeah.
00:49:41
I did speak to him on the phone once during the 2016 campaign. Mhm. Which was funny. I was trying to get an
00:49:48
interview with him. This is early in the primary process. And um they had gone
00:49:53
through this whole big like swearing me to secrecy thing that in order to get the interview. I needed to call him
00:50:00
personally and even the fact of the call had to be off the record and they made us like swear there was no listening
00:50:06
there was no recording device and like going through all this rigomearroll. And so then I have I call Rona like I get I
00:50:13
have the appointed time. I get on the phone with him. I asked him to do the interview and at the end of my conversation with him, he goes, "Well,
00:50:19
you can air this. This was nice." I was like, "First of all, it this is
00:50:24
off the record, right? I didn't tape it. I can tell you now." I agreed to it being off the record, but because he
00:50:30
said that, I can now tell you, Caris Swissard, today that he said it was it was now I was allowed to air it. And I
00:50:36
was like, "My dude, like do you are you aware when you were in the media versus when you were having a
00:50:42
No, he doesn't care. If it goes well, he wants it out there, right? If it goes, you know, if it's a very good call and stuff like that. So, you're not
00:50:48
expecting anything here. You're just, it's going to be a roll. It's already a rollover. No, this is a this is a bad thing. This
00:50:54
the meeting itself is a bad thing. Vladimir Putin being invited to the United States of America to meet
00:50:59
one-on-one with the American president is all I need to know. And that's a bad thing. There's nothing substantively that's going to come out of this meeting
00:51:05
except for Trump getting more of his instructions. I think he's going to give back Alaska. I'm telling you, we're going to lose
00:51:10
Alaska. We're going to lose Alaska. They're going to trade Sarah Palin and you know you can see Russia from her
00:51:17
porch. Anyway, um let's bring that one back. I'm going to move on to something totally different. The US Supreme Court has officially been asked to overturn
00:51:23
the 2015 decision that granted equal marriage rights to same-sex couples. If you remember Kim Davis, uh heinous Kim
00:51:30
Davis is what I call her. Uh the former Kentucky uh county clerk who was jailed for six days in 2015 for refusing to
00:51:37
issue marriage licenses to a gay couple. She's filed an appeal in July for the compensation she uh was ordered to pay
00:51:43
that couple. Davis is taking her case to the court on the grounds that Ober uh Oberfell be vihajes which established
00:51:50
marriage equality was wrongly decided infringes on her first amendment rights. Davis has been unsuccessfully appealing
00:51:56
the order for years to lower courts. She is the only one with standing to do this from what I understand. Um I did protect
00:52:02
predict an attack on marriage equality back in January. Let's listen to a clip. All they're doing is a is a is a naked
00:52:08
grab for overturning uh the gay marriage Supreme Court decision like they overturned Roie Wade. Um and it's very
00:52:15
vulnerable. Two two court justices, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alo said it should be reconsidered. Um
00:52:23
so we'll see. It's theater. It's it's it's theater, but it's they're going to try to do this. They're trying to get a
00:52:29
case up there that will make it happen. Are you concerned about this at all? Well, I'm on this. I'm sort of of two
00:52:36
I'm of two minds about the about the decision. I feel like I agree with your prediction from January that they want
00:52:42
to overturn um uh at least there are parts of the court that want to overturn it. I mean, remember Oberfell was 54
00:52:49
decision and now Yeah. And now the court is 63 in the direction that had been in
00:52:54
the minority. Um, and so I I think they want to, but I also feel like the sort of legal common wisdom on this case, as
00:53:00
I understand it, I'm not a lawyer, but the legal common wisdom is that this is not the case. That while Kim Davis is
00:53:06
appealing to the Supreme Court, her illegal actions in denying a marriage
00:53:12
license because she says God told her to. Um, she she is in appealing that part of her
00:53:19
case, she is also asking the court to overturn Oberfell. and this doesn't this just just doesn't seem like legally the
00:53:25
right vehicle to do that. The court also doesn't have to take up any of this. Um and even if they did take up the Kim
00:53:32
Davis part of it, they don't have to address the Oberfell request in it at all. So I think I think yes, the um the
00:53:38
anti-gay movement in this country um senses it's got the wind in its sales. They've got a a newly reactionary
00:53:45
Republican party on these issues that's getting really demagogic on these issues. um and and they they think that
00:53:51
they've got victories ahead. I just don't think this is the case by which they're going to do it. That said, I mean, they've been doing all sorts of
00:53:57
stuff that isn't warranted or necessitated by the by the material that's being put before them. That's the whole shadow docket idea.
00:54:03
So, this a pretty radical court and I don't I don't really want to I don't want to really want to stand here with
00:54:09
on plant two feet and say it's not going to happen, but it would be a it would be a weird way for them to do it if they were going.
00:54:14
Weird way for them to do it. Well, I think they I mean they go through trans people and then to gay like ultimately marriage really chapped their ass. They
00:54:21
really did a lot of these people. And I think that was but still like more than twothirds of the country is is in favor of uh samesex
00:54:29
marriage which is a reversal from what it was when they decided it, right? But but still look at abortion,
00:54:35
gun control, all that stuff has, you know, the 8020 rule and so much stuff. There's so much stuff that has an 8020.
00:54:42
People are for it and it doesn't matter. That's part of the reason they don't like democracy is because that they
00:54:47
actually don't have the people with them on this stuff on which they're making some of the worst um correct the the
00:54:53
largest advances at least. Yeah, I'm not getting gay married again. That's all I have to say. Anyway, um
00:54:59
good luck taking away my marriage. Honestly, it's so ridiculous. It's a waste of time. All right, Rachel, let's
00:55:04
go on a quick break. When we come back, we'll talk about what the women of the right are up to. Rachel, we're back with
00:55:09
a quick update of the women on the right. Let's start with Katie Miller, wife of Steven Miller, former employee of Elon Musk. She launched her own
00:55:16
podcast, the Katie Miller podcast, and kicking it off with a JD Vance interview. That charmer. Let's listen to
00:55:21
some of the hard-hitting journalism happening over there. Oh god. If you could only eat one condiment for the rest of your life, what would it be?
00:55:27
One condiment. Does barbecue sauce count? Yeah. Okay. Barbecue sauce. Not mayonnaise. No. No. Mayonnaise is like in low doses
00:55:35
as good, but it's kind of like I I had a buddy who used to eat French fries with mayonnaise. I thought that was disgusting. It's the only thing my
00:55:40
husband eats with French fries or like period. Period. Okay. Wow. I didn't realize he's only a mayonnaise guy.
00:55:46
Okay. I learned something about Stephen. I didn't know. Yeah, it's whatever. God.
00:55:51
Oh, Cara. Why did you put that in my head? Cuz you put naked Donald Trump in my
00:55:57
head. Oh my god. I don't want to think about Mayonnaise at all. And I don't want to think about Steven Miller at all. Now
00:56:03
Steven Miller and Mayonnaise are the same when they're on. Oh my god. What's your favorite content?
00:56:09
Oh god. Whatever the opposite of this moment is is my favorite thing.
00:56:14
Oh my god. Is she going to steal our thunder? Good god. So why does why does Katie Miller have a
00:56:22
podcast? That is There you go. That's the question. I think that's what was Katie Miller doing for Elon
00:56:28
Musk? I don't I don't know. I'm not Wasn't she working? She was she was working from PR
00:56:33
presumably. There were other comments about their relationship, but um I don't I allegedly um I
00:56:41
was she was she working for Tesla or she was working for him personally? No, she worked for Doge, remember? She was
00:56:47
the Doge lady and then when he was knocked out um she went with him and
00:56:53
that was the big like what's happened here, you know, and because obviously Miller is the most significant player in
00:56:59
that administration at this point. Yeah. Um and uh and uh and then and then
00:57:04
she's left. She's stopped doing stuff for him. She had to get out because she's she knows where her mayonnaise is buttered.
00:57:12
I'm going to sue. I'm going to sue. I've been irreparably damaged. I want I want
00:57:18
a temporary restraining order from any more mayonnaise talk out of you. Anyway, she's she has a p everyone has a
00:57:24
podcast. There's all these ladies of the right that are now pushing. There's this whole movement of ladies of the right. you know, she's a she's like, "We need
00:57:31
to be heard." I'm like, "You need not to be heard. You've been heard enough." Like, I love the Just the idea of ladies of
00:57:37
the right is also great because the whole Lord of the Rings thing was so weird. But I think that if we could change the acronym so it was ladies of
00:57:43
the right rather than Lord of the Rings, name all our companies after that, you know,
00:57:48
they just they're getting into podcasting and some are more success. Like I said, Megan Kelly is very popular. Um, but there's a whole there's
00:57:54
a whole movement of these people. They feel like I got a microphone. I can say whatever I want. Like I just it is a
00:58:00
movement of people. It's not specific to them, though. I feel like everybody like every every every homeowners association and PTA has
00:58:07
a podcast now, too. Yeah. It's just it's the way that people are um It's the It's the blog.
00:58:12
Remember when everybody had a blog? It's the It's the blog of today that everybody has. Well, she'll get she'll she's sort of a
00:58:18
a house organ for these people. They can come on and say adorable things and it'll get, so to speak, eaten up like
00:58:24
mayonnaise. Did Did you listen to more of the podcast than the mayonnaise clip? I did.
00:58:30
Does she have an does she have No, it was it was literally that was the highlight of it. The mayonnaise was the highlight. It was sort of like, so what
00:58:36
do you do for fun? Like it was it was it was painful. It was Do you remember in the first term, first
00:58:43
Trump term when he appointed um Jared to a job at the White House and it was like
00:58:48
Jared's in charge of Middle East peace, Jared's in charge of like Jared's in charge of Jar Jared's in charge of
00:58:54
COVID. he was in. And as he was acrewing all of these jobs and more jobs and more jobs and more jobs,
00:59:00
Jared Kushner was starting to really loom as maybe this is the person who's actually kind of running the federal
00:59:05
government. Jared Kushner, oh, and like lots of things are being ascribed to him and dark things being ascribed to him
00:59:11
and he's really seen as the power behind the throne, especially post Bannon and everything. And then
00:59:16
it occurred to sort of the collective mindset at some point that like nobody had ever actually
00:59:22
heard from Jared, right? And then they rolled him out and they had him do a White House press briefing or White House press conference
00:59:28
statement at some point and everybody's thinking like Jared Kushner is the man. Jared Kushner is the power. He's the Sith Lord here. And he walks up to the
00:59:35
microphone and he says hello everybody open his mouth and it was like oh no all
00:59:43
illusions have gone. There's something about his uh presentation in particular his voice that was like oh yeah I don't
00:59:49
have to worry about this guy. I felt the same way about Ronda Santis in his um much heralded presidential campaign. It
00:59:55
was really on paper it looks fantastic and then he walks up to the microphone. Yeah. Looks and sound. Well, do remember
01:00:02
uh what's his name? Howard Dean had the same problem, right? Like there is an element of looks and presentation that
01:00:08
matters to people. Yeah. Although with Howard Dean, I think that was a little bit of a It was the scream, right? That it was the scream
01:00:14
and it was just like a weird pickup. It was a weird pickup thing, but he didn't otherwise speak like a weirdo. I think
01:00:19
that he got he got mum donnied. He got Democrats were scared of him because he's doing pretty well getting
01:00:24
well. Howard Dean was for a while too, but Democrats got all scared because he actually had class analysis, right? That's true. That's a fair point.
01:00:30
Um, so you're not worried about Katie Miller taking a show from you, right? Oh, no.
01:00:37
Yeah. Are you You still haven't answered the condiment issue, Rachel? The weird thing about me and condiments is that I put mustard on my eggs.
01:00:45
Oh, that's okay. I like things with vinegar in them and mustard has vinegar in it. And so when I get like a bacon,
01:00:51
egg, and cheese, I put mustard and hot sauce on it. It's acceptable. And by the way, many people in Belgium eat mayonnaise with
01:00:57
many people in Europe eat mayonnaise with fries. There aren't that many people in Belgium, though. Well, they enjoy their mayonnaise. Um,
01:01:04
and we're not even going to get into ioli. Um, all right. Some more ladies of the right. Laura Loomer and Marjorie
01:01:09
Taylor Green are beefing. In the last week, Laura Loomer claimed the Trump White House can't stand Marjorie Taylor
01:01:14
Green in a deposition in a lawsuit against Bill Maher. By the way, please go read that whole deposition. It's one wacky thing after the next. Marjorie
01:01:21
Taylor Green suggested Laura Loomer was bankrolled by Israeli intelligence. And Loomer has called MTG a rabbit dog and a
01:01:27
lying fake Christian [ __ ] Um, I don't think we could do any better for that.
01:01:33
Um, what is happening? I I I think a bigger question is on the right. What happens
01:01:39
post Trump? Cuz there will be eventually a post Trump unless they weakened Bernie's this guy. Um what what happens
01:01:47
because there seems to be so many fissurers in this gang of like
01:01:52
one of the things you know in I've done a lot of work in the past few years on like the far right and the far right in
01:01:59
American modern history and what they've what they've done and um who they are and how they network with mainstream and
01:02:06
elected right-wingers and stuff and they're good at it. Yeah. And there's it's always been much more seamless between the far right and
01:02:12
the center right than it is between the far left and the mainstream left. Um, but one of the things that has limited
01:02:19
the ascendants and the power and the sustainability of the very far right in
01:02:24
the past is that they're all um uh
01:02:30
crooks and mean girls and they steal from each other and get in fist fights and set each other's
01:02:36
houses on fire and sleep each other. sleep with each other's wives and husbands and there's so much infighting
01:02:42
um that they can't keep it together for more than a single generation ever. And that's true in everything from the
01:02:48
American Nazi party where we have George Lincoln Rockwell assassinated by one of his own people to the Liberty Lobby,
01:02:54
which was a a Holocaust denial um neo-Nazi organization that was very
01:03:00
integrated with the uh elected right in the in the Reagan era where they descended into incredible like fist
01:03:06
fights and smashing each other over the head with iron bars. Like there's all this in there's all this stuff. Um and
01:03:11
it always goes that way. And right now we do have with an authoritarian in the
01:03:18
White House, we do have greater and more scary, more powerful integration between
01:03:23
the very far right and the right than we've ever had before. But it doesn't expunge that dynamic, which I think
01:03:29
always exists on the far right, which is you're rais Israeli intelligence. No, you're Israeli intelligence and you're a
01:03:36
[ __ ] and you're a you know, I mean, I'm buying fake Christian [ __ ] That's the name of my band. But go ahead. Mhm.
01:03:42
A um I would actually the name of my band is pregnant women smoking, but go ahead. I would buy merch from either
01:03:49
even though I'd be too social. So you feel like a crackup is inevitable in in that regard without the the
01:03:54
organizing glue of Donald Trump. I just feel like the constant cracking up. Like I feel like constant waring and
01:03:59
cracking up and um and you know they're polygraphing each other in the defense secretar's office, right? Like
01:04:06
and they're all the same people. They're all on the same side. and you know and and Bannon is out there denouncing you
01:04:14
know ex you know Bannon and Musk or they're going to kill each other and and
01:04:19
these these guys are fractious by nature because they're conspiratorial and um
01:04:25
purist and they're not awesome when it comes to rational argument and compromise and so they're always
01:04:31
denouncing and and beating one another to death and I don't think that will change and I think that's to to all of
01:04:36
our benefit right and I and I hope they never change, right? Because they will continue to do so. Yeah, you're going to see more of
01:04:42
that no matter how you I agree with you. I'm always like the minute Trump leaves the picture, it degenerates really
01:04:47
rather quickly. The conspiratorial right is inherently fractious and that's part of why they're
01:04:52
a bad bet for governance. Um because they're constantly schisming against
01:04:58
throwers by nature, right? They're and and they're shiters and breakers of things. They're sort of like toddlers
01:05:03
almost like the tech bros. But you know what I call tech bros now? Technically broken. I keep repeating that catches
01:05:09
on. You can use it anytime, Rachel. Please, you you'll popularize it if you will. Technically broken. Um, all right,
01:05:15
Rachel. One more quick break and we will be back for our last segment on predictions. Okay, you have to make a
01:05:20
prediction. Uh, I can make one too, but I would like you to first. Do you want you go first? Well, I'm living for two things. things.
01:05:27
I think Gavin Newsome's done very well with his his tweeting of Trump fake. You know, he's he's mimicking Trump, which
01:05:33
is really great. But I'm really enjoying the AI boys fighting Elon Musk and Sam Alman are going at it again. Musk
01:05:38
alleged that Apple engaged in antitrust violations, making it impossible for AI companies other than OpenAI to reach the
01:05:44
top of the app store. Musk says XAI will take immediate legal action. Alman
01:05:50
responded to a claim saying, "This is a remarkable claim given what I have heard alleged that Elon does to manipulate X
01:05:56
to benefit himself and his own companies and harm his competitors and people he doesn't like." And Musk responded
01:06:02
saying, "You know, you had 3 million responses to this and I have many more followers
01:06:08
and I didn't have nearly as many." And Sam Alman delivered the fantastic and only gay people can do this slap, which
01:06:14
was skill issues. Um I I I I predict this war is going to
01:06:22
get worse. Uh because I think that Elon will do anything. There is a weird anger that he has towards Sam Alman who he
01:06:29
used to be along not aligned with. They did a company they did open eye together and uh and he will not rest until um he
01:06:36
is somehow sullied. You can have your opinions about Sam Alman all you want or any of these tech people but this is
01:06:42
going to get I think worse uh as Grock continues to crater. a founder just
01:06:47
left. Um, and so Elon's going to sort of focus his attention away from Trump, although I do think he did start the
01:06:53
Epstein thing. Um, and and continue to like go at uh anything that has to do
01:06:58
with open air and try to kill it. Does Musk have sticktuitiveness problems though? Does he Yeah, absolutely.
01:07:04
Yeah, absolutely. He is He is like a like, you know, like what's a bird that a hummingbird? He just flits. He flits. He
01:07:11
flots. He There's a song. What is that? Um Oh, it's in Sound of Music. It's a Sound of Music song. Um, it goes back to
01:07:18
Julie Andrews. The villainess. I was just gonna say we're back to Julie Andrew. No, the villainess in that is my
01:07:23
favorite character of all time. The Baroness. Oh, the Baroness. Remember her? The Baroness.
01:07:28
The Baroness. She was watches Susan watches The Sound of Music like three times a year. As she should.
01:07:34
Yeah. I just as I go get I go get on the exercise bike. Do you watch it? It's such a brilliant
01:07:40
thing. It is. But three times a year. Really? You know, there's an idea that it's racist that because the or it's anti-gay
01:07:47
because all the Germans are gay gay coding and all the Austrians are like
01:07:52
hikers or something like that. I just I just heard that. I'm like, what are you talking about? Ralph is just an [ __ ]
01:07:58
He's not gay. Goodness sake. Also, there can be gay [ __ ] It happens. I agree. Oh, hello. Nazis had a whole
01:08:04
division of them. Like, they did get killed, as you know, as you well know as a as a studier of the Nazis. Uh they did
01:08:11
kill uh Ernst Rome and his band of uh gays before they got into power. Um anyway,
01:08:16
they didn't call them the the band of gays. The band of gays. Mean gays. It sounded better in the German.
01:08:22
I know there's way more mean gays than there than we you realize. Um okay, let's hear a prediction from you.
01:08:28
Okay. I have a couple of things that are just like a heads up in terms of things that I think are going to get more important. Okay.
01:08:34
Um one is the US attorneys scandal. So this started in Albany, Northern
01:08:39
District of New York and then uh New Jersey with Alina Haba and then in California and then in Las Vegas. Trump
01:08:46
is it seem it would appear to be illegally installing US attorneys and US attorneys
01:08:52
doesn't sound like that big a deal, but these are the people who prosecute federal crimes in these states and districts. And um there's a real
01:08:59
question as to whether or not the it's possible to have federal law enforcement legally in any of these states where
01:09:06
he's effectively illegally installed these US attorneys. So this is a slow burn story, but it's going to become a
01:09:12
bigger one because he's trying something that isn't working. Mhm. And it's going to result in a
01:09:17
confrontation with the courts and with federal with it has already. And that's just that's
01:09:23
going to break one way or the other. and Trump is it's just it's just worth watching there because that could be um
01:09:29
an important constitutional moment. I would say it's also really worth watching um Trump's threat that he wants
01:09:36
to redo the census. Um again, census sounds boring, but there is a there is a
01:09:41
universe in which Trump is worried that he's going to lose the house in in the midterms in 2026. And so he says, "Okay,
01:09:49
we need a new census because actually the last census I'm nullifying it
01:09:54
because it had immigrants in it and therefore it doesn't count. Therefore, all the congressional districts
01:09:59
nationwide that were set by that last census. Those are no longer in effect.
01:10:05
Therefore, we cannot have the 2026 midterm elections, right, the way we're supposed to because those congressional
01:10:11
districts are illegal and we'll have to delay it." I mean, it's a sort of doomsday scenario in terms of the technical part of our democracy and
01:10:17
continuing to have elections, but that census part of it is a key piece. So, those are worth
01:10:23
paying attention. Of course, it's going for the census. It's going for the census, but it's a way to it's a way to go for elections,
01:10:29
right? Right. Over under on how 50/50 30 what what is
01:10:35
I don't know. I mean, I think that they've floated the let's have a new census thing in part to see what the reaction to it is. And people have
01:10:41
treated it like that's weird or that's like a tech techn a technical in
01:10:46
technically infeasible thing. Hey, guess what? He doesn't actually want a new census. He doesn't It's not that
01:10:52
he has to slow it down. That's a very good point. It's not so to get a new census. Don't assume any good faith on the part
01:10:58
of these arguments. The Tampa is not about crime. the the the attempt to nullify the census is not about the
01:11:05
equality of the census. All of these things are all about what everything he does is for which is to acrue more power
01:11:11
and to make it more dangerous and difficult to oppose him or criticize him and slow down the possibly inevitable,
01:11:16
which is his defeat. Yeah. And so that's that's the one potentially potentially positive thing
01:11:22
to look for is that I do think the mRNA funding decision um has to be reversed. I think that that
01:11:30
was uh I think they blew it. I think RFK Jr. blew it in terms of the announcing the cut off of mRNA vaccine funding. Um
01:11:36
mRNA technology it would be like us opting out of penicellin. Right. I mean did
01:11:41
Right. Right. Did you see that ad that thing the Washington Post which is the new house organ for for partial releases
01:11:47
from the Trump administration. the opinion section ran a piece by why we tabled mRNA
01:11:52
and we tabled mRNA funding because the American people for some reason have suspicions and they don't trust
01:11:59
mRNA says right we just appoint Trump just put a guy in the health department who says that Wi-Fi gives you leaky
01:12:06
brain says that HIV doesn't cause AIDS and that COVID was genetically engineered to spare the Jews yeah I
01:12:13
wonder why people have weird ideas about vaccine technologies there you go it's I I think I actually think the mRNA
01:12:20
decision is is is bad enough and the the the that push back in the Washington
01:12:25
Post is part of the reason I think actually that they are going to have to reverse No, the Post didn't push back. They published a positive piece by the guy
01:12:31
who did it. Yeah, the OpEd. But that oped was so weak. If that's the argument for why you're doing it, they feel the need to
01:12:37
make the argument. The argument is that's a fair point. The post is such important technology. They also had an editorial. It's such a
01:12:44
heinous public David and I talked about this week, but saying that, hey, maybe the DC needs more crime fighting. Like I
01:12:50
was literally I nearly walked over there and slapped them. I just was like, I need to now go down there and slap them at this point.
01:12:56
Turns out having a billionaire running stuff doesn't make it good. Technically broken, Rachel. I think
01:13:01
actually your prediction was going to be that you were going to the UFC fight at the White House. Oh well, I was wrong.
01:13:06
Yeah. I don't know. Not unless they're going to use me as a prop, like a you know, like a chair.
01:13:11
Breaking a chair over somebody's head. Yeah, you'd be a great UFC fighter. You'd be a great wrestler.
01:13:17
Yeah. Yeah. Remember, I'm taller than people expect the [ __ ] out of people, I think. Anyway,
01:13:24
um I really appreciate you doing this. I'm Norm is besides someone I've gotten to know you a little bit. I think you're
01:13:29
a wonderful person, but you are you're doing God's work, I think. And I think people don't realize how funny you are
01:13:35
and everything else and how substantive you please read her books. All of them. They they have changed my life in a lot
01:13:41
of ways. I read stuff I didn't know and I'm a very big student of history both Ultras and is there another season of
01:13:47
Ultra coming? There is a new podcast coming. It is not a season of Ultra but for fans of Ultra
01:13:52
you will find a lot that you like. That's great. That's really good stuff I didn't know and I knew a lot of stuff and prequel is a wonderful book I have
01:13:58
to say and I hope you're still working on that uh play with Tony Kushner or the movie uh screenplay for a movie of um of based
01:14:05
on Ultra. Yes, it there's so many great characters. I didn't I'm trying to figure out I don't want Don't tell me cuz I don't want to
01:14:11
know. But there's so many amazing characters, both heroic and evil, that are really quite astonishing. Like that
01:14:17
woman who dressed up at the sedition trial, what's her name? Doris or Oh, the woman who wore the night gown.
01:14:23
Yeah, the night. Who put on the silky night gown and did all and then did the Nazi salute? Nazi salute. Oh yes.
01:14:28
What an incredible what in these these people are just astonishing and and there's mystery and everything else.
01:14:34
Anyway, everybody read it. They should. That's the part of I love your show, but that stuff I just adore. I think it's
01:14:39
amazing. Caris Fisher, I'm very thankful for you. Thank you very much. Thank you. I'm going to read us out. We want to hear from you. Send us your
01:14:45
questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 8551 pivot. Okay,
01:14:52
that's the show. Thanks for listening to Pivot. Be sure to like and subscribe to our YouTube channel. We'll be back next week again. Thank you, Rachel. And I'll
01:14:59
read us out. Today's show was produced by Larara Neon, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin, and Kevin Oliver. Ernie
01:15:05
Enderdott engineered this episode. Nishad Kerwa is Vox Media's executive producer of podcast. Make sure to follow
01:15:11
Pivot on your favorite podcast platform. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can
01:15:16
subscribe to the magazine at nymag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and
01:15:22
business. And Rachel, a jar of mayonnaise is on the way. Thanks, Cara. So gross.
01:15:30
[Music]
