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Seth Berger is founder and former CEO of
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and won a company specializing in
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basketball shoes and apparel he and
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several classmates founded the business
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while they were our students at Wharton
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in the early 1990s and ones original
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product line featured t-shirts targeted
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at young basketball players and later
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expanded to offer a full line of apparel
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under his leadership revenue rose from 1
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million dollars in 1993 to more than 200
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million in 2001 in 2005 sets sold and
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won two American sporting goods a
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private shoe company based in California
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he is currently the head boys varsity
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basketball coach at the West town school
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in western Pennsylvania he agreed to
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talk with us today about what it takes
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to build a successful company that
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thanks for joining us to start off
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successful entrepreneurship is all about
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seizing the right opportunity at the
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right time so where did you get your
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idea for the business and how did you
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know that it was the right time to
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pursue that opportunity my dad came
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while I was here at Wharton when I was
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in grad school I did an advanced study
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project for a business plan called the
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hoop initially actually which was a
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basketball retail store in a class with
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Mouse bats and teaches undergrads a
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great teacher and in my second year grad
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school I'm wore that business plan into
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a database business targeted at
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basketball players I actually left
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school when I graduated to do the wrong
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business at the wrong time which was a
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basketball database business and in
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about three weeks I realized that I was
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broke and I was gonna stay broke unless
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I changed my business idea very quickly
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so what we found my partners and I felt
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at that time was that in the sports and
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an apparel industry there were lots of
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companies that did multi sport so Nike
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Adidas Reebok at the time would do you
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know basketball football tennis soccer
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whatever it might be but no one was
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focusing just on the basketball player
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so we thought we could niche in industry
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in its in his biggest category and
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basketball the second part of your
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question in terms of knowing that it's
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the right time I don't think we ever
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knew
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you know I also think we got very lucky
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with a few things that happen Michael
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Jordan retiring Latrell Sprewell making
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you know having a great playoff run just
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after he'd signed him so there are lots
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of things I think when the ball bounces
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your way that end up in hindsight you
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say oh that was the right time but when
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you're sitting there you're kind of
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crossing your fingers saying I really
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hope this is the right time absolutely
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after launching and won what challenges
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did you and your business face and how
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did you overcome these challenges it's a
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hard question because I think everything
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was a challenge when we started we had
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no experience first and foremost so none
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of us had an experience in clothing or
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footwear so the biggest challenge I
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think for us was figuring out what the
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right questions to ask were once you
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know what the right questions to ask are
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you can always find the answers
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but I had two or three partners we were
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there really really smart kids him and
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one was a warden undergrad with a 3.9 6
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GPA the other kid had gone to Stanford
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and then you've had me and I was you
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know looking at these guys for no other
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questions and then we'd figure out the
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answers so the the first hurdle we had
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was lack of experience the second hurdle
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we had was that we were young and so
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when we'd walk into a room at 25 25 and
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23 years old and say we're here to show
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you product that we can produce over in
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China and we can deliver to your factory
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within four months they would look at us
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and say no you can't do that you know
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your kids and then once you get past the
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hurdle of hey we delivered what we said
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we were gonna deliver and people trust
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you then we got past that the challenge
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of being out on the flip side of the
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challenge of being in I think it's a
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huge opportunity whenever I speak with
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undergrads or grad I always try to tell
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him you should go start your business
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now before you have a bunch of
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experience because what your experience
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will tell you is what you can't
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accomplish when you graduate from Penn
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or Wharton at 21 or 25 you have no idea
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what's you know what you can't do in the
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world you think you can do anything and
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so that's the best time to start a
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business when you're 40 you're looking
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back saying wow how do we get that done
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that was insane so you mentioned that
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part of being the right time is having
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Michael Jordan retire when your business
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was starting
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why was that such an opportunity for you
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it was literally in the fall of 93 I
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remember we were riding to friends high
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schools to give a talk what the first
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couple months and starting a business
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have been like and I hear over the radio
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that this is a October that Michael
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Jordan has retired from basketball
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Jordan at the time was almost as big as
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it is today in terms of being a dominant
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player in basketball
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so immediately retailers had hundreds of
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millions of dollars of Jordan clothing
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that they wanted to replace because they
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thought no one was gonna buy it because
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he had retired and actually the first
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time Jordan retired his sales went like
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this since the second time he retired
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Jordans continued to grow and grow and
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grow but for the first couple years
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after Mike stepped out it created a huge
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opportunity for us when consumers and
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retailers wanted something different so
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if Mike had decided had not decided for
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whatever reason to retire
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you wouldn't be interviewing me today
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Wow so how did you seize that
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opportunity and provide products that
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the consumers wanted how we seize the
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opportunity really was luck in that we
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were doing what what we thought was the
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right thing in terms of putting out a
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product that the consumer wanted I think
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the you're asking a let me try to answer
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the question a little differently okay
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we knew our consumer extremely well
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because we were consumers so when we
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created basketball apparel and footwear
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we thought we knew what a ball player
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wanted at 25 I was just kind of on the
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edge of the target consumer being 16 to
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18 year old ball player and now I can
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tell you what those kids want you know
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but back then we thought we knew so the
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most important thing for us was knowing
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our consumer then putting out a product
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that we thought he would want then what
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happened was in our first shipment in
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November it was a disaster we literally
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did shirts and the colors of the shirts
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were the the print the screen prints I
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was lying green and purple is just
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ridiculous stuff so the stuff didn't
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really sell they gave us another chance
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we came back in the spring and we fixed
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the colors and literally our stuff flew
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off the retailers within three weeks
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they were completely sold out we went in
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February from being in 10-foot lockers
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to in June being in 1500 foot lockers
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across the country about 1994 so we went
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in four months from being zero
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in the t-shirt market to being their
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number two basketball supplier like you
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mentioned and one target it's a very
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specific market the niche market of 16
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to 18 year old basketball players how
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did you cater to this market and what
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kinds of strategies that your company
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employ in order to market to this very
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specific group of consumers right
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first is our product was our biggest
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marketing with a small company with
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limited budget the biggest way to
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message to your consumer is actually a
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product so our product had to be a
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combination of product that would be
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great to wear and actually say something
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to consumer so he could represent
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himself as a basketball player so that
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was the first thing second so and that
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goes back to knowing your consumer we
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would focus group so our focus group
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wouldn't be in no disrespect you know
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more than office right we would take our
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stuff out to the basketball courts and
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we go to courts all across the country
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and ask kids which of these shirts do
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you like which of these shorts do you
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like which of these shoes do you like so
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our first filter in our company and as
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we grew we continued to hire young
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basketball players in our product and
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marketing area so we hired kids from
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Penn from Stanford from Haverford all
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who played ball and they would be our
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first filter they can't give our stuff
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can't get by them it's not getting out
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the door then once they get by them we
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go to the kids who were gonna be buying
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it
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six nine months down the road and they
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told us what were our best products as
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opposed to us deciding I like that one
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the best
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you know at the end it doesn't matter
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what I like the best because you know
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when I was going to be 27 30 32 it
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really didn't matter it matters what
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that 16 year old kid likes given that
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the retail industry is so competitive
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and your brand succeeded in the retail
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space how did you distinguish and one
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from other brands and what marketing
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strategies is you employ first the most
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important thing was that annalen was a
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basketball only brand so we want we felt
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that we couldn't occupy the consumers
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mind for all of footwear and apparel and
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athletics but we wanted to make sure
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that when you thought a basketball and
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you thought of an one first okay and if
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you thought about soccer or tennis we
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didn't want you thinking about our brand
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in fact some folks would say I don't
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know what anyone means I should I'm not
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gonna buy that we said great if you
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don't know what annalen means then you
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shouldn't be buying their product we
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don't want you wearing it anyway
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and so that was you know niching it to
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that consumer was was I think probably
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the thing that kept us started us on the
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right path kept us going and then
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actually when we veered away from that
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path later it really kind of screwed us
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up as a company I know that your company
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develops an entertainment division that
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did a lot of promotions for the company
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can you tell us a little bit about that
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yeah it's fun
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skip to my Lou rafer alston is an MBA
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player today Weiner skip under skip when
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he was you know back in the city at
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seven he was younger than that but
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everyone started to know when he was 17
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and he had been around a bunch of
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different high schools before he went to
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Fresno State he was a great basketball
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player so we actually had sponsored the
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Rucker all-star game which is a great
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game in New York City of playground ball
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players and we had these tapes of skip
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and some other great ball players
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there's one all-star game had Konrad
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McRae skip Kareem read kid named the
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predator I mean was unbelievable
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all-star game
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we had these tapes and actually a kid is
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probably about your age was working at
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an ad agency and said why don't you make
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a mixtape of that those games put it to
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music because you may see this
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basketball all the time cuz you're from
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New York but folks outside the city have
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never seen this kind of basketball so we
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made a tape we gave 50 thousand tapes
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away is the fastest promotion most
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successful promotion in a weekend foot
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action had ever had and then the ball
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players actually said you know what why
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don't we host some games so first it was
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one you know some kids idea and then the
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ballplayers and so so why don't heal
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some games the first game we hosted at
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Hunter College was we had mos def did a
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concert after the game I mean it was
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jam-packed in the summertime and then
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from there we approached ESPN said look
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you know we got this idea for a tour for
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a TV show it was kind of early on the
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reality thing and they ran with it
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actually in its second or 30 year street
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ball was a better performer for ESPN
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than SportsCenter among teen males you
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mentioned that moving away from your
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core product was actually detrimental to
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your business could you explain that a
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little bit further sure
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when you start to grow as a business one
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of the things you want to do is keep
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brewing and be as big as you possibly
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can be and that conflicts with
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continuing to be true to who you are as
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a company and servicing the same
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consumer so as a basketball brand as a
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young teen male basketball brand we
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started to feel like it was only so big
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we could get so we started to do other
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products we did a slip-on shoe we did a
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training shoe we started to do training
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clothing and I really feel that it
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diluted our brand we started alter our
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logo so it wasn't so basketball only the
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idea was hey we need to enable more
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consumers to feel that they can buy our
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product I actually think that started
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our slide down and when we really you
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know should have said look you know what
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if we can be a 200 300 400 500 in our
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company and it might take us 10 years to
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get get there and that's as big as we
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can be that's doing the right thing for
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the consumer versus saying I want to be
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500 in our company in two years we need
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to expand our product line and you kind
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of forget why the consumer likes you you
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know I mean so instead of expanding
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horizontally what did you do to ensure
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that your business had scalability in
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your target consumer market we did I
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mean the point is what you just said is
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we when we went vertical okay
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we realized that you know what this
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business has a limited size at our
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height in 2001 with our licensees were
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about 285 million bucks we did 210 or
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maybe a little bit more like we did 210
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our licensees did somewhere between 70
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and 90 and we're an industry where we're
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competing with you know 1 billion two
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billion 12 into our companies and they
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can spend so much more in marketing so
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we felt like we needed to generate more
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money so we could spend more money in
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marketing and I think the mistake we
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made was saying you know what if we can
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be a very profitable 300 million dollar
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company that's great let's do that and
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if we want to grow what we should be
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doing is buying other brands that have
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different meaning to their consumer so
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let's buy a running brand let's buy a
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fashion brand as opposed to trying to
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make an one brought it to the consumer I
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think in Nikes done a probably the only
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brand in the in the footwear apparel
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industry that's done a really good job
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of being true to itself as an athletic
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brand and yet somehow being able to
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bridge
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the fashion gap is Nike you know adidas
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tried it they failed Reebok did it they
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failed Under Armour's going to try and I
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hope they succeed because Kevin's a good
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friend of mine but I'm not so sure but
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Nike has always said in terms of their
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marketing all they will say is a athlete
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athlete athlete athlete athlete and that
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enables you know people my age to wear a
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swoosh and think I look like an athlete
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now right and yet somehow that's become
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very fashionable I think they're the
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only ones that have been able to do it
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what would you say is your worst
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experience while building and one of
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what was your best experience I don't
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know that I had a worst experience I can
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give you a moment of horror it wasn't it
00:14:00
wasn't the worst experience we had
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signed Stephon Marbury from Georgia Tech
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who graduated as left as a freshman
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played for the Minnesota Timberwolves he
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was our first sneaker endorser his
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number four or five picking him thankful
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fifth pick in the NBA Draft the great on
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was forth so we're invited by the
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Timberwolves to sit courtside to watch
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Steph play his first regular season game
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we had done a massive national TV
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campaign gave away 10,000 t-shirts at
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the Target Center and the campaign was
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called breaking ankles with Stephon
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Marbury he's supposed to break an ankle
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so I'm supposed to cross you over and
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break your ankles so he's having a good
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first quarter he's starting him and
00:14:38
Garnett they're playing relatively well
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and about five minutes into the first
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quarter he comes down on Cadillac
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Anderson a Kellogg Anderson's like seven
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feet and he's not a great player but his
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foots literally I mean they shock looks
00:14:50
more like a comes down Cadillac
00:14:52
Anderson's foot rolls his ankle breaks
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it crying on the court they pick up
00:14:59
Steph carry him over and they literally
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sit him down right next to us because
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they had set us down at the end of the
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Timberwolves bench Steph looks at me I
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look at him you know and he's thinking
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these shoes stink right and I'm thinking
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what the heck were you doing trying to
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drive my Cadillac Anderson but we have
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six million dollars and shoes on water
00:15:18
at that time and the shoes are due to
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hit our warehouse the next week and then
00:15:22
get shipped out to retailers so now I
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literally called my director marketing
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back home when I say Aaron it's been a
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great run just so you know there's a
00:15:30
really good chance we're gonna go
00:15:31
bankrupt because we can't float these
00:15:33
shoes at the retailer ship and
00:15:34
to us and barbara-ann can be on the
00:15:36
court for four months so that was a
00:15:38
moment of her right they dog it all
00:15:42
worked out and he actually was out for
00:15:43
four months with a broken ankle and we
00:15:45
got it ripped in the media for our
00:15:46
campaign breaking ankles and I would say
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I really don't know if there was a best
00:15:52
moment there are so many I mean the
00:15:56
whole experience van one was incredible
00:15:57
you know 12 years with great people and
00:16:00
way more successful that we had ever
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imagined I think if I thought of one
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moment though it was the first time I
00:16:07
saw a kid wearing our t-shirt
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I was actually twelve year old girl at
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hoop it up as I was out that first
00:16:12
summer and I hadn't seen anyone really
00:16:15
wearing it and I saw this 12 year old
00:16:18
girl - hoop it up and you know she was
00:16:19
like a hardcore ball player it's like oh
00:16:22
perfect our target consumer right here
00:16:24
in hardcore basketball player wearing an
00:16:26
one she had cut the sleeves off and you
00:16:29
know was trying to look data that was
00:16:31
great clearly you've experienced a lot
00:16:33
of success in a very competitive
00:16:35
industry if you were to start another
00:16:37
company today what would it be I don't
00:16:42
know I really don't think I would do
00:16:44
that actually in the last we sold the
00:16:47
business to no.5 and I've got three
00:16:49
young kids and I've been coaching high
00:16:50
school basketball I've had three or four
00:16:53
opportunities to do really cool things
00:16:54
and each time I've come to that I
00:16:55
decided that the time with my kids and
00:16:58
the time that I'm spending with the kids
00:17:00
at my high school because I coach them
00:17:02
six months during the year are more
00:17:04
valuable than starting another business
00:17:05
what do you think is the next big thing
00:17:08
then in the athletic apparel industry
00:17:10
you could think it's gonna get even more
00:17:12
vertical and towards the end of our run
00:17:15
the dynamics the industry got very
00:17:17
difficult so you had sneaker factories
00:17:21
were squeezing the vendors who were
00:17:22
squeezing the retailers who were
00:17:23
squeezing the consumer and then
00:17:25
everyone's squeezing back so it's very
00:17:27
difficult these days to be actually a
00:17:29
successful vendor meaning a Nike or a
00:17:32
reebok okay the margins are too slim and
00:17:34
also have margin for the retailer Foot
00:17:36
Locker foot action I think you've seen a
00:17:38
lot of consolidation I think at a
00:17:40
certain point there's going to be some
00:17:42
funky combination of internet retail
00:17:44
manufacturer or either Nike or
00:17:47
adidas or you a is gonna say - Foot
00:17:49
Locker and champs and JCPenney we're
00:17:53
gonna open up a thousand of her own
00:17:54
stores and we no not no longer need you
00:17:57
as a pass-through to the consumer the
00:18:00
internet has I think sped the
00:18:02
availability of information to the
00:18:04
consumer now that at this point the
00:18:06
consumer must know that for that
00:18:07
hundred-dollar shoe they're they're
00:18:10
spending an extra forty bucks that they
00:18:12
don't need to spend because it's passing
00:18:13
through too many hands so I think you
00:18:15
know and it might even start over in
00:18:17
China because they're starting to lose
00:18:18
some business to other nations they
00:18:20
might say look you know what we're gonna
00:18:21
buy a brand and we're gonna have the
00:18:24
vendor and we're gonna own a retailer so
00:18:26
though we can deliver a shoe that a kid
00:18:28
would be spending 100 bucks on for 60
00:18:30
bucks that has to happen I think that's
00:18:33
the probably the next stage in terms of
00:18:35
brand marketing there has been a lot of
00:18:37
hype in the business world around
00:18:39
advertising during the Beijing Olympics
00:18:41
what's your take on marketing athletic
00:18:44
brands through this event and given that
00:18:46
there's so much competition for
00:18:48
advertising do you think that it's a
00:18:50
worthwhile pursuit for athletic brands I
00:18:52
think it's worthwhile for Nike and I
00:18:54
think everyone else is wasting their
00:18:55
money okay at the end of day at athletes
00:19:00
are associated with the brands that they
00:19:02
wear kids don't really care who put the
00:19:05
commercial on right at the end of day
00:19:07
they know LeBron James wears a Nike shoe
00:19:09
right so Adidas Reebok anyone else could
00:19:13
sponsor quote unquote sponsored the
00:19:15
Olympics and actually it happened in
00:19:16
Atlanta our you're way too young to
00:19:17
remember but in Atlanta one of the other
00:19:19
brands sponsored the Olympics and Nike
00:19:21
just flooded the Olympics a Michael
00:19:23
Johnson was wearing a golden shoe when
00:19:25
he broke the record running the 400 no
00:19:27
one knew that Reebok had sponsored
00:19:28
Olympics no one cared because he assets
00:19:30
were wearing Nike so Nike and to a
00:19:32
lesser extent adidas I think it makes
00:19:35
sense for them to invest everyone else I
00:19:36
mean they should take their money and go
00:19:38
put it on number eight on the roulette
00:19:40
wheel it's better spent as a successful
00:19:42
entrepreneur what advice do you have for
00:19:44
students who are interested in starting
00:19:46
a business let's start a business before
00:19:48
you go get a job and here's the reason
00:19:51
if you go get a job you're going to
00:19:53
succeed
00:19:54
and you're going to come out of school
00:19:55
if you come out of Wharton what do you
00:19:56
make these days 50 G's to start you tell
00:19:58
me if you work for a banker
00:20:00
something like that 60 K okay great so
00:20:04
you started making 60 so let's say
00:20:05
you're 21 years old you get at school
00:20:07
making 60,000 bucks all right and you do
00:20:09
real well in three years later they say
00:20:11
I'm gonna send you back to Wharton grad
00:20:12
I'm gonna pay for you then come back to
00:20:14
work when you come back you're making a
00:20:15
buck seventy-five five years after that
00:20:17
you can make an half million bucks
00:20:18
you're gonna have a husband or wife two
00:20:20
kids
00:20:21
nice car summer home country club at
00:20:24
what point are you gonna say I'm gonna
00:20:27
go start my own company the answer is
00:20:29
never write what you will do is work
00:20:31
until you've made enough money somewhere
00:20:34
in your 50s to go do something you
00:20:36
really want to do instead of now when
00:20:38
you're broke like when I got out of grad
00:20:40
school I drove a Honda Civic hatchback
00:20:41
was broken as a joke and I didn't care
00:20:44
all right just didn't matter but once
00:20:47
you get used to the good life you won't
00:20:49
go back so if you're thinking about
00:20:51
starting a business start the day you
00:20:53
graduate you don't need experience you
00:20:55
don't need money you don't need someone
00:20:57
else to tell you you can do it just go
00:20:59
start it before you get used to making
00:21:00
all that money great thanks for joining
00:21:03
us thanks Mindy for more information
00:21:08
please visit knowledge Wharton UPenn dot
00:21:11
edu
