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Our Guest today is nunzio quelli founder
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of quarell Simmons which is a British
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company that specializes in education
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and study abroad nunzio thank you so
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much for joining us at knowledge at
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Wharton it's a pleasure uh you founded
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querly Simmons back in
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1990 uh I wonder if you could tell us a
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little bit about uh what your objectives
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were at that time and how they've
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changed over time so I found a Qs W
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Warton student so maybe I can just give
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you a little bit of the the history
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because it's it's interesting absolutely
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uh I came to Wharton with the intention
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of becoming an entrepreneur and I spent
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my two years here uh really identifying
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um an opportunity and I I realized that
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I was passionate about education and
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there was an opportunity for me to
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produce Publications and provide
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information in the education space won
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provided me with some support the
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entrepreneurial center gave me a little
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office uh I had a great team of students
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they worked with me over the two-year
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period we won the moot courp business
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venture competition representing Wharton
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and and the business started here so um
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our our history is very embedded in
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warten and our mission from the outset
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really hasn't changed which is to enable
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motivated young people around the world
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to fulfill their potential through
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educational achievement International
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mobility and career development so those
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are three things that determine
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everything that Qs does and
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we are really passionate about it it
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sort of we touch the lives of of tens of
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millions of people around the world and
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it's a really nice feeling if you know
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that you're helping people make the
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right education choices that you're
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helping them progress in their career
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that's what we're about right so one of
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the again going back to the days when
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you first started Qs uh one of the
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biggest challenges for any new
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entrepreneur is uh raising Capital how
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did you go about that so I was
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lucky that
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I um identified a business which could
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be cash positive very early on and I was
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also lucky that I was at Wharton I had
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lots of students who were willing to
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help me and didn't require being paid so
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my Capital was essentially the free time
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that those students gave me and I did
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pay them eventually so once once the
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business started making a profit I
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actually gave a return of a profit to
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them but for the first two years I had
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probably a dozen Wharton students
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actually working with me excited about
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the project giving you know a
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significant chunk of their time and we
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managed to raise money from corporate
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Enterprises uh and some education
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institutions to fund the initial
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projects which were Publications I've
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been an editor of some magazines at
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Cambridge University and so that was my
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knowledge area initially so we produced
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Publications and they made a profit
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really from from the GetGo that was very
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helpful and and Qs has what what kind of
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publication as they so initially we
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published a a magazine called uh the NBA
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career guide which was about career
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opportunities for NBAs we then extended
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it to um a publication around diversity
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so it was looking at um the
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opportunities and development paths for
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minority students in the USA and we
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quickly extended to educational
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Publications looking at opportunities in
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business education and postgraduate
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education and that really was what the
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business did for the first couple of
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years years and then we quickly evolved
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well along with raising Capital the
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other big challenge for any new
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entrepreneur is picking a leadership
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team uh since you said you were working
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with a lot of students uh what what how
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did you recruit your leadership team
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what were some of the things you looked
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for so I'm I'm a very much a
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relationship driven person so I I look
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for people who I liked and who were
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friends and who were shared the passion
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about education and who were excited is
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about what I was doing so it was really
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about sharing the idea sharing the
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vision and saying do you want to help
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and you just whatever little bit of
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spare time you can give me will be
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appreciated and different people had
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different skill sets and it really
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gelled and in fact in the motore
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competition uh we took that initial
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student management team down to Austin
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Texas to to present our our business
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plan and it was great great camaraderie
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great fun um and yeah they they gave
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that time voluntarily it was it was
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lovely fantastic so uh during your
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entrepreneurial Journey uh what what
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have been some of the key
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Milestones uh and challenges and how did
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you deal with them so any
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entrepreneurial Journey has challenges
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and you I like to say that I'm not a
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Serial entrepreneur I'm a mono
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entrepreneur I founded one business and
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I've just grown it and the challenges
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have been to develop a business
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organically um
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self-funded so um managing and
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maintaining cash flow throughout that
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process whilst also developing new
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businesses so you know Qs today has uh
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we're a leading uh event publisher uh or
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the event organizer in the higher
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education space over 350 events and
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conferences we have the probably the
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largest um research organization
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specializing in higher education
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worldwide over 300 uh University clients
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we have web platforms that attract over
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30 million unique visitors top
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universities.com and top mba.com and
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then we also have a a technology
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division which provides software as a
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service to the higher education industry
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each of those businesses has been funded
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organically through through our own cash
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flow and we've had to manage that um
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development very carefully so so cash is
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always the key issue in terms of
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Milestones I think that um in
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1993 shortly after I graduated we
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decided to go into the events business
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and so achieving success in the events
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business was was pivotal in helping the
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business go from being a small idea to
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actually an idea with global scale and
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Global opportunity today as I said we
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organize 350 events and conferences in
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57 countries what kind of events are the
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so uh we started in the NBA space
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naturally
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so um a principal event is is the world
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MBA tour we also Run the World grad
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school tour which is the largest source
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of internationally mobile postgraduate
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students we have the largest um educator
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to educator conference in the Asia
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region called Q Apple Qs Asia Pacific
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professional leaders and education
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conference we have the largest educ
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educator to educator conference in the
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Middle East called Qs Maple which Middle
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Eastern Africa professional lead in
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education and we're also we run a number
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of other conferences um for the for the
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education industry as well so it's both
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student Recruitment and professional
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networking for the education sector so
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so that as a milestone moving into V
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business was pivotal in giving us a
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global scale and
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scope then I think
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in
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2002 I made the decision that I wanted
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Qs not just to be a media company but
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also an information and data company so
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I had a good friend who was uh John O
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lir who was the uh editor of of Times
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Higher Education and together we got
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together and said there's a need for
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Global rankings you University leaders
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are telling us that they have no basis
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for comparing their performance across
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borders so we spent two years with
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extensive Outreach to those University
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leaders identifying a suitable
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methodology and in 2004 we launched the
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C World un rankings and in the last
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decade that has emerged as the most
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popular the most viewed university
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ranking system in the world so over 100
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million people will view the world
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University rankings around the world and
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I'm actually delighted to say that our
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2000 and 14 15 rankings have launched
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today congratulations uh if I could just
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ask a question about rankings uh there
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are so many different Publications that
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do rankings and some of them are
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actually uh the methodology is somewhat
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suspect U I wonder if uh you can explain
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what
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differentiates qss rankings from the
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those done by other
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Publications absolutely so I think Qs
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has invested enormous amount of time and
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mental effort in devising a system which
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is robust stable
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trustworthy and
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meaningful all those are key to the
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success of the Qs World un rankings so
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we spent two years outreaching to
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University leaders to identify suitable
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metrics for the
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rankings we have a system which is based
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on a global academic survey over 60,000
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academics responded to our 2014 survey
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we also have a global employer survey so
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over 30,000 33,000 employers around the
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world have responded to our Global
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employer survey largest employer survey
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that any organization in the world
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conducts that we're aware of we then
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look at bibliometric data in a lot of
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detail so the number of citations that
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University producing per faculty and
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then some other metrics which are
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important for world-class universities
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um student faculty ratio International
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faculty student international student
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ratios those metrics are meaningful so
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they're meaningful in the sense that
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universities have objectives to improve
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those metrics over time so if they can
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see that through Qs tracking they are
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making performance Improvement against
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those metrics that is a sign of
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successful
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so we estimate that over half of the
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world's top 500 universities actually
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reference Qs data in their strategic
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plans which I'm very proud of that it's
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an incredible fact so universities
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actively able to use our data to to
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manage the business of of their
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universities particularly as they
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orientate towards becoming more globally
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recognized and more internationally
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engaged so what are the outcomes of that
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first of all um the universities are
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much more actively engaged in
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international research collaboration so
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Qs rankings are
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not the the sole driver of that but they
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are a factor in in encouraging research
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collaboration and we see today that
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International research Partnerships
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produce twice for citations per faculty
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of soulless research activity for a
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university so that trend has brought
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about an incredible acceleration in the
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generation of quality knowledge which
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we're really proud of secondly because
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we look at the employer opinion students
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know that they can look at our rankings
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and get a perspective on what employers
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think about University education not
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just overall but we also produce tables
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for 30 different subject areas so for
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the Stu the prospective student audience
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it's really valuable to understand these
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institutions produce quality research
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they're also providing employability
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needs for different segments of
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employers that that's valuable output
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and that that has built not only the the
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trust but also the high involvement of
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the the education Community right now if
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you were to think about the almost uh 25
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years path that Qs has been on 25 years
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next year what would you consider the
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biggest leadership challenge you have
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faced how did you deal with it and what
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did you learn from
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it so there there have been numerous
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leadership challenges but I think that
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um what I have the biggest challenge has
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been to have the majority or all of the
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C staff follow the values that c holds
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dear and to to make sure that they are
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um really passionate about those values
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so some of our values um cultural
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sensitivity I've been preaching that
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since I founded the company in 1990 and
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in the early days people would look at
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me and say Nuno what are talking about
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what is cultural sensitivity but if you
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have the ambition to be a global company
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and you know you're operating in in
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China dealing with you know Chinese
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government officials one day you know a
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few days later you're you're in Latin
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America dealing with the Latin um
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mentality then you're off to Saudi
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Arabia meeting uh the Arabic culture you
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have to really invest time in learning
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about how people from different
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societies think and to to really
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appreciate how they think in order to
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develop a relationship and so I've tried
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to cultivate that mindset in in all the
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people at Qs and it's a challenge and
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but I think people gradually over time
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have have got it um we also have have a
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a focus on on um
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Innovation now Innovation is difficult
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how do you Champion Innovation you we've
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grown
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organically uh so we have to give people
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the time and the opportunity in the
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space to just think and nonproductive
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activities so you know we have projects
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which don't have short-term you know
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profit objectives and people who are
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focused just on on innovating our
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product site and you that you if I had
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lots of other shareholders who are
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banging the drum about you maximizing
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shareholder value and achieving
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maximized profits in the short term a
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lot of those Innovations may not come
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about so in a sense there's been a
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benefit to our our our structure in that
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we've been able to to reinvest um
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profits to to to Really push that
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Innovation and encourage it within the
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organization and then maintaining very
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customer focus is critical so um one of
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the things that I I really encourage us
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to do is to survey customers after every
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activity we undertake so now at all our
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events or any customer they have an
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electronic um digital app they can um
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download and they can give us immediate
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feedback and we monitor that feedback
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and we take that seriously there are
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other values as well but engaging my
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team with those values has been very
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challenging at times and I've learned
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that I have to invest a lot of my time
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in explaining why those values are
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important and making sure they followed
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through and the most difficult um value
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has been team playing why because you
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know Qs is a is a sales and marketing
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organization
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and naturally salespeople tend to be
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quite independent and competitive and
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competitive people so you what I've
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learned from that is that you have to
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create incentives that encourage team
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playing it doesn't just happen um as a
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matter of course you really have to work
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at it but it's important because it
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makes a big difference if you've got a
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constructive team playing environment
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you're going to thrive if you don't
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maintain that environment things start
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to unravel great I think that's a really
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good point uh N I wonder if we could
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shift Focus from your entrepreneurial
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journey in Qs into sort of the broader
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education Market in which it operates
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now one of the things that uh has been
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quite striking in the past few years is
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the extent to which uh disruption has
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started to rock uh the education Market
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especially things like muks or massive
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open online courses now if you think
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about some of these changes to what
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extent do you think they will they
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represent a fundamental disruption uh
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for uh the education institutions and to
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what extent are they just a complement
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to existing educational activities so
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it's a great question and I wish I had
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the answer I can give you my thoughts
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and in fact as you know I'm speaking on
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Thursday at the um SE Center for
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management studies Advisory board
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meeting at Wharton on the future of
00:16:26
education so in effect this is my topic
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of discussion and I'm going to say that
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um I'm going to quote Donald rumfelt who
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you unwillingly but it seems appropriate
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you there are known knowns there are
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known unknowns and there are unknown
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unknowns some of the known knowns are
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you know the demand for education is is
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growing around the world especially in
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Emerging
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Markets the international mobility of
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students and academics is
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increasing even at an even faster rate
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the cost of higher education is is
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unsustainable for
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governments the rate of of enhancement
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of technology in e-learning is is
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accelerating those are drivers of
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change I won't go through the rest of
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the presentation there are there are
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lots of unknowns in that not least how
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technology will shape the future
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education but given those drivers of
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change I've
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I believe that disruption will come but
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as you rightly said I believe it will be
00:17:36
complimentary rather than revolutionary
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why do I say that well you we've had
00:17:43
educational institutions since the time
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of the Greek Agora where bright people
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have gathered together because frankly
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it's stimulating yeah as a collective
00:17:52
group you you bounce ideas off each
00:17:54
other you learn from each other Dean
00:17:55
Russell Palmer when I was at Warton at
00:17:57
my inaugural um talk said you're going
00:18:00
to learn more from your fellow students
00:18:01
over the next two years than you are
00:18:02
from all our faculty all your lessons
00:18:04
and he was right you you need that
00:18:07
Gathering of bright people to stimulate
00:18:09
and to to grow and to push forward
00:18:11
knowledge and for that reason I think
00:18:14
the university as an institution will
00:18:16
sustain I don't believe in these um
00:18:20
doomsday as uh views that that that that
00:18:22
um the university will disappear
00:18:25
secondly I I actually think that the the
00:18:27
teacher student relationship and the
00:18:30
delivery of knowledge by a human being
00:18:32
is also sustainable it's actually
00:18:34
relatively cheap depends on what you pay
00:18:36
for the teacher but but you know at the
00:18:38
basic level it's actually relatively
00:18:40
cheap and remarkably well proven it
00:18:42
stood the test of time I don't think
00:18:44
that's going to go
00:18:45
away I think that Blended learning is
00:18:50
inevitably going to become part of the
00:18:53
natural everyday process of delivery of
00:18:56
Education you're going to integrate on
00:18:58
online learning video um perhaps even um
00:19:04
you know at the younger age groups um
00:19:08
video cartoon interactive video uh game
00:19:13
playing why because it's becoming
00:19:16
cheaper to deliver as well it means that
00:19:18
you can actually have the best people in
00:19:20
a particular subject area feed into a
00:19:23
lecture and make the
00:19:25
contribution it also has the benefit
00:19:27
that it can some of that learning can be
00:19:29
done outside the classroom so that
00:19:31
classroom time can be better spent on on
00:19:34
productive interaction and engagement so
00:19:37
I I think that's happening already I
00:19:39
think it's going to accelerate I think
00:19:40
the quality of that Blended learning is
00:19:42
going to improve the quality of
00:19:43
Engagement is going to uh
00:19:46
improve then you start looking at more
00:19:48
sort of um Advanced changes so I think
00:19:52
that there may well be learner learner
00:19:54
models where actually you have um
00:19:58
probably in the moo environment where
00:20:00
you actually have the Learners sharing
00:20:03
knowledge and teaching each other and
00:20:04
even rating and evaluating each other I
00:20:07
think those models and those those sort
00:20:09
of social models are are emerging and
00:20:11
are likely to be popular I don't know if
00:20:13
they'll ever be degree bearing and
00:20:15
therefore I don't know if they'll ever
00:20:17
substitute but I think they'll
00:20:20
complement I think you're
00:20:22
also going to have to have more
00:20:25
evaluation of the quality of e-learning
00:20:29
there's a great deal of e-learning
00:20:30
already out there and a great variety of
00:20:32
quality so I think there's a need for
00:20:35
organizations like Qs to actually look
00:20:38
at how you validate and uh potentially
00:20:42
um rate those online learning programs
00:20:45
we're looking at that um it's a process
00:20:47
that we'll go through but it's it's a a
00:20:49
non-trivial
00:20:52
challenge and then finally I think that
00:20:55
you'll
00:20:56
probably probably
00:20:59
see a return to more vocational studies
00:21:03
delivered through online learning
00:21:06
because we said higher education is very
00:21:08
expensive the cost to the student is
00:21:12
incredible the average debt for a
00:21:14
four-year graduate student in the US
00:21:16
today is
00:21:17
$31,000 the total cost of that debt is
00:21:20
over a trillion dollars it's more than
00:21:22
credit card or Auto debt right there are
00:21:25
going to be young people who are going
00:21:26
to say I don't want that you know I I
00:21:29
want to do a vocation and there are
00:21:31
lower cost models where maybe I can work
00:21:34
and study at the same time and I do
00:21:36
think that within the developed
00:21:38
economies like the US the UK maybe
00:21:40
European Union that we'll see um a
00:21:43
greater um Trend towards apprenticeships
00:21:47
and Vocational learning through
00:21:49
e-learning Platforms in emerging
00:21:51
economies I actually think they're still
00:21:53
at the stage where they want greater
00:21:55
higher education Outreach and so I don't
00:21:57
think that Trend will be replicated in
00:21:58
emerging economies those are some of my
00:22:01
thoughts uh now that's really
00:22:03
fascinating and and given the fact that
00:22:06
you have such a ringside view of
00:22:07
educational institutions globally have
00:22:11
you seen any promising pedagogical
00:22:13
models emerge that you think will become
00:22:15
more dominant over time so we are
00:22:18
running a an award scheme and a
00:22:20
conference uh at Wharton in December so
00:22:23
I'm I'm honored that c is partnering
00:22:25
with Warden to run the qar awards won
00:22:28
cure star awards reimagine education and
00:22:31
we have collected a pool of Judges from
00:22:35
University presidents e-learning experts
00:22:37
um the education specialist from Google
00:22:39
Amazon um IBM to be part of that
00:22:42
Community to look at the most Innovative
00:22:45
and potentially effective new learning
00:22:48
systems we have received um between 100
00:22:52
150 um applications from distinct uh
00:22:55
universities and um private sector
00:22:58
organizations we start the process of
00:23:01
evaluation in a couple of weeks time so
00:23:04
we haven't gone through that evaluation
00:23:06
yet however I've I've started to look
00:23:10
through some of them and I think that
00:23:13
there is a a lot happening in in the
00:23:16
area of
00:23:17
gamification where U academics are
00:23:20
developing uh game models to encourage
00:23:25
um students to to go through different
00:23:27
learning routes examples of that I can't
00:23:30
because I can't name any of the entrance
00:23:32
at this point in time but in at the
00:23:35
awards we will be going through lots of
00:23:36
CAS so the conference is the 8th to the
00:23:38
10th of December and all the shortlisted
00:23:41
and winning entries will be showcased uh
00:23:45
so it's an opportunity for anyone who's
00:23:46
interested to to come and and find out
00:23:48
about it but but gamification seems to
00:23:50
be you know quite popular particularly
00:23:52
in the in the University academic
00:23:53
Community within the private sector
00:23:57
there seem to be um just a lot of new
00:24:00
models for engagement so it's e-learning
00:24:05
online learning but just with enhanced
00:24:07
engagement and you know enhanced
00:24:09
Community creation and that's why I say
00:24:12
the sort of learner learner model is
00:24:14
probably around the corner because
00:24:16
there's so much engagement and so many
00:24:18
tools to to to manage engagement today
00:24:21
that that I think it's it's inevitable
00:24:23
so those are two things which which
00:24:25
stand out but they're also you know
00:24:27
interesting
00:24:28
use of video so um I can't again I can't
00:24:32
name an example but there's a a ballet
00:24:34
school in in Russia that is using you
00:24:37
know Real Time video realtime playback
00:24:41
um real-time evaluation of videos um
00:24:44
sort of digitized scoring to see if the
00:24:47
body positions are in the right place
00:24:49
exact to to then give the the ballerinas
00:24:52
immediate feedback that's that's quite
00:24:54
interesting use of video technology
00:24:56
right right so lots of interesting
00:24:57
things happening
00:24:59
so uh to the degree that this these
00:25:02
disruptive changes are going on
00:25:06
uh what kind of threats do educational
00:25:10
institutions face and which institutions
00:25:13
do you believe will be the most
00:25:15
vulnerable so as I said I'm I'm a
00:25:17
Believer in the sustainability of the
00:25:19
University as a as an Institutional
00:25:22
concept I do think that there'll be and
00:25:24
I think that the brand of the University
00:25:26
still has enormous value for the
00:25:28
employer and for the student and
00:25:31
therefore you know the leading Brands
00:25:33
will maintain preeminence I do think
00:25:37
that there'll be greater volatility in
00:25:39
the institutions which have brand
00:25:42
recognition I think it'll be much
00:25:43
quicker for an institution to achieve a
00:25:46
claim and Status than you know the sort
00:25:49
of 600 years it's Tak in Cambridge or
00:25:52
the the 400 years that's taken in
00:25:53
Harvard to to achieve that sort of
00:25:55
preeminent position I'm not sure that
00:25:58
new entrance will will achieve
00:26:00
leadership but I think that new entrance
00:26:02
can rise to problems quickly an example
00:26:04
is Hong Kong University of science
00:26:05
technology which was only established um
00:26:08
I think 20 years ago and it is already a
00:26:12
a a top 40 institution in the world and
00:26:15
and the leading um university in the
00:26:17
Asia Pacific region by by our metrics by
00:26:19
Qs metrics so it's had a phenomenal rise
00:26:22
to prominence and to prestige and as you
00:26:25
have more technology in the e-learning
00:26:27
system coming into play I think the
00:26:30
ability for Innovative universities to
00:26:32
really accelerate that brand reputation
00:26:34
is there so a volatility will definitely
00:26:39
happen so given everything you said I'm
00:26:42
going to take you back to your roots at
00:26:45
Qs and see uh what are the kind of new
00:26:49
opportunities uh does everything you
00:26:52
just describe create for Qs for the
00:26:56
future so when you have disruption it
00:26:59
does create opportunity uh I think that
00:27:02
you know Qs as a trusted independent uh
00:27:05
source of information in the education
00:27:07
world will certainly look to provide
00:27:10
guidance on the different e-learning um
00:27:12
platforms different e-learning programs
00:27:15
that is a that is a requirement the
00:27:17
market needs that and and we're beholden
00:27:19
to to deliver that I think that uh as
00:27:23
institutions look to evolve their
00:27:25
strategies to to remain competitive or
00:27:28
to increase their position in the global
00:27:30
landscape they will look to Qs both for
00:27:32
data and for strategic guidance on how
00:27:34
to do that and you we have uh a
00:27:37
Consulting team within our research um
00:27:40
which is which is uh progressing very
00:27:42
well so we're seeing that
00:27:45
demand I also think that um more
00:27:48
institutions will be internationally
00:27:50
engaged so if they seek to
00:27:54
internationalize then they will look to
00:27:56
Qs to support that internationalization
00:27:58
program whether it be through
00:27:59
international student recruitment or
00:28:01
achieving greater uh brand recognition
00:28:03
so those are those are obvious
00:28:05
opportunities I think when we look
00:28:08
deeper we will we will reflect on on how
00:28:12
technology is shaping the education
00:28:14
space and we'll see if we feel there are
00:28:16
opportunities for our technology
00:28:18
division to to be part of that but
00:28:21
that's a that's a deeper uh discussion
00:28:24
so if you were to dream ahead five to 10
00:28:29
years uh what do you think Qs will look
00:28:31
like then so our vision is to be the
00:28:35
leading media and information brand in
00:28:37
the world you we compete with lots of
00:28:39
big names I think we're we're doing a
00:28:42
good job of achieving that brand
00:28:43
recognition I know that in China um
00:28:46
universities believe that if you if you
00:28:48
want to sort of have an impact in China
00:28:50
you need to align with Qs because Qs
00:28:52
rankings are the only thing that Chinese
00:28:53
kids look at so I think to to continue
00:28:56
to build our brand and its recognition
00:28:59
in markets all around the world I think
00:29:01
the US is probably the market we're
00:29:02
least well known in for a variety of
00:29:04
reasons I think that Qs can become much
00:29:06
better known in the US have a much
00:29:08
bigger impact in the US I think the US
00:29:11
education system is is absolutely
00:29:14
outstanding it is the world
00:29:16
leader but I think it's also a little
00:29:18
bit um stuck in a in a in its own path
00:29:21
whether it be because of accreditation
00:29:23
or other factors it hasn't evolved and I
00:29:27
think you know if I look at what Asian
00:29:29
universities doing and the pace of
00:29:30
change that they're undertaking and this
00:29:33
education industry is dynamic so I think
00:29:35
that you if Qs can um engage more in
00:29:39
supporting us institutions to to truly
00:29:42
internationalize and change their focus
00:29:45
that would be great so the vision for Qs
00:29:47
is is simply to be the leading media and
00:29:49
information brand and to extend our
00:29:51
footprint and I I hope that you know we
00:29:54
continue to to do a good job and that in
00:29:57
5 years time r Remain the most trusted
00:30:00
uh independent source of information in
00:30:02
the high education space that will be
00:30:03
enough for me nunzio thanks so much for
00:30:06
speaking with us my pleasure
00:30:10
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