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we're joined today at knowledge at Orton
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by harier Singh and also Mike usim
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they're both management professors here
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at Wharton and they're going to discuss
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their new book uh which is about
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management and strategy and it's
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actually called the Strategic leaders
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road map six steps for integrating
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leadership and strategy thanks for
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coming in today to talk with usk you um
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good leadership or good strategy uh um I
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think one of the main points of the book
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is that some companies have really good
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leadership they fail on their strategy
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and vice versa some have great strategy
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and fail in
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leadership and it's the integration of
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the two that you talk about in this book
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as being so important could you each
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give me a sort of nutshell view of why
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that's so important and and why
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companies aren't doing it
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today so there's been a lot of emphasis
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on leadership over the past few years is
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an evergreen topic
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but if you look at Microsoft and Steve
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bommer in his term Microsoft was
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dominant Steve bomber was seen as a
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Visionary leader and inspired the troops
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in fact his meetings were legendary you
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know the passion and the inspiration and
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so on but in his tenure also they missed
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the boat on the mobile applications of
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Microsoft and actually opened the door
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for many other players in the industry
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and it has taken some time to try to
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respond to that so so that's an example
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of very very good leadership but really
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not having enough strategic sort of
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inspiration and discipline and in fact
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what we seem what we've learned is that
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the ideas coming in on the mobile side
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were actually set aside in favor of the
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desktop so sometimes a strategic Choice
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can limit the benefits of very effective
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leadership and vision and Steve to pick
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up on that and going back a little bit
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in time har and I have often taught
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almost backto back in in midcareer
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programs strategy first as it should
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come first and then leadership second
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and we've often cross talked a bit but
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uh a year and a half ago we sat down
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with the chief executive of Nissan also
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the CEO of Renault and came to know
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quite a bit about the Nissan turnaround
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which is one of the great turnarounds of
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the modern era Japanese Auto producer
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was pretty much going off a cliff back
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in
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1999 not because it did not have a good
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turnaround strategy it actually had one
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but the incumbent top team at the time
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just couldn't seem to make it work so
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good strategy but the uh thinness of the
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leadership at the top uh in terms of
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making things happen driving change
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through the organization ultimately uh
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crippled the organization and that is
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when Nissan turned to Rena for a big
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cash infusion $4 billion accounting and
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Nissan brought in Carlos gone became his
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new became Nissan's new chief executive
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officer his strategy was U more than
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what he had when he came in there but
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his leadership was very different and
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from that experience looking at that
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case in some depth came to really
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appreciate that you got to have a great
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strategy you got to have a great
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leadership to go with it if you're a
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little bit short in one you're going to
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be in trouble so starting about
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a decade and a half ago or so there was
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a lot of talk about strategy and
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execution
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strategies very very important but the
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idea was it's not that hard to come by
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meaning that not that it's easy lots of
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companies have good strategies and
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companies with good strategies many of
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them weren't doing that well because
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they couldn't execute how does your idea
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of of of the marriage between strategy
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and leaders ship differ or complement
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that whole idea so execution was uh was
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the rage you know 10 years ago and
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particularly with the financial crisis
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even more so let's squeeze out cost
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let's become more efficient and so on
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and clearly very important but what we
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are arguing is that you need
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inspirational vision from the leader but
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you also need a very clear value
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proposition for the customer and then
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execution is sort of the way you can
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deliver value value create value and so
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in some sense if you look at again the
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Nissan case what you see is we we call
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it executable initiatives so the value
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proposition that you decide to have how
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are you going to actually navigate
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through your organization and get the
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best possible execution and we also
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realize that strategy is owned by
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everyone so we have a concept in the
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book called layering and Leadership and
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in the Nissan case laring leadership was
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they had cross functional teams which
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were largely
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people in their 40s and late 30s and
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even people reporting to them who kind
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of brought up ideas that fitted with the
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architecture that Carlos gon had created
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along with a senior team so the idea is
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execution is not just following orders
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it's actually creating and enhancing the
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value proposition to the client and
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getting the ideas from people throughout
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the organization so you want you want
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you want staff to have a strategy on how
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to implement the strategy how to
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implement the strategy and but then
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there's a very kind of lean set of
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initiatives that you pursue so there's
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not it doesn't get frittered away or
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lost in the confusion so the people also
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know what they're contributing to and
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that's important another example
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actually is when PNG bought Gillette
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they bought Gillette at a very very high
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price because it was an auction most
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people thought there was not much value
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left Gillette was already dominant but
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what PNG ended up doing with Gillette
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was actually creating a whole new set of
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uh you know shaving creams and other
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sort of assorted products that go along
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with the Shaving equipment but also a
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better supply chain so it's really how
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you link the value proposition with
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execution within the organization and
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then leadership that can kind of
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summarize what the key direction is so
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people are not kind of uh you know going
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in opposite directions or frittering
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away their energy you know harir Proctor
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and Gamble offers a really nice example
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of why we need to think about execution
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plus so in the case of the acquisition
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of Gillette as I recall it was a more
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than $40 billion deal it was a huge
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decision the then chief executive AG
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Lafley he needed a lot of thinking
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through he needed Good Counsel he needed
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smart people that would work with him
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and in that particular case he turned to
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his own board of directors and you
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wouldn't think of a board normally as
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getting into the the mechanics of of an
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acquisition the pricing how they were
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going to keep the CEO of Gillette if
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Gillette did come into Proctor and
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Gamble but the board of AG Lafley at the
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time had six former CEOs on it and their
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leadership experience their leadership
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background their leadership instincts
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proved vital for AG Lafley decision to
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go through with the acquisition to
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generalize that out I think I think we
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were all most of our readers uh and
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certainly our viewers recall the book by
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Larry basid and RAM Chiron execution a
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bestseller deservedly so because it was
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really about taking your vision and your
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strategy and bringing it into reality
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and they were quite critical of several
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companies that they name in the book for
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having failed to do that harbir and I
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were very influenced by that line of
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thinking of course what we've in a sense
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added here is um a call to take a look
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at people in The Firm on the board below
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the chief executive below the division
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heads not just for whether they can
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quote execute but whether they have a
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range of leadership capacities like
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inspiring people you wouldn't think of
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that as part of execution but if you
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move into then a broader terrain of
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leadership uh good decisions timely
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actions um listening to the customer in
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all kinds of ways leadership and our you
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is a more encompassing concept that has
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to be matched up with strategy if you
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got both we think you're going to go in
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the right direction you need someone
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that can get that Employee Engagement
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yeah going yeah exactly and also a
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decision process we kind of talk about
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deciding deliber deliberatively and the
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idea is that the quality of discourse
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matters in a company you know and there
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has to be sort of enough openness to new
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ideas but also a sense of selection and
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then proceeding forward um many
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companies struggle with this either you
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have kind of a top- Down sort of flow of
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decisions where people execute with
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their list in for direction or perhaps
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bottom up but I think to allow for kind
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of healthy debate and discourse but then
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choosing a direction and moving we talk
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about deliberatively deciding I think
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that's an important piece so it's it's
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always good to learn from companies that
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have done it well and been successful
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it's also interesting to get lessons
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from companies that haven't done well so
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what would be an example of a company
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that had a good strategy but failed
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because of leadership and then also the
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opposite what would be an example of
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company that had good leadership but
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their strategy just fell short Steve to
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pick a contemporary example Wells Fargo
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much in the news for apparently um a
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number of the staff members creating
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fictional accounts for customers
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actually using the customer's names and
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in some cases even signing their
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signature inappropriately on these
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accounts that were being created and
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human nature Being Human Nature we know
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a lot about The Human Condition
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behavioral economists and psychologists
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been looking at it for a long time uh
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would tell you in advance if you're a
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leader who is listening that if you put
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forward a very tough set of objectives
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and by the way all companies do that all
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companies have a strategy that are with
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stretch goals we got to increase um
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return on Equity by 5% in the next 12
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months
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that's a pretty modest one right there
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but many companies go well beyond that
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and then in our view leadership at the
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top in the case of Wells Fargo just
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think of what leadership means it means
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you set the tone create the mindset
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absolutely especially in financial
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services but every company really create
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a climate of integrity and then within
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those call them boundary conditions then
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push people to get the job done of
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expanding the number of accounts at the
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bank but it would appear let's just say
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good strategy and aggressive strategy
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all companies uh Financial Services
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Beyond are growing want to grow and set
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tough targets as they should but then we
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got to think about as a leader what's
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going to happen when people translate
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the demand upon them for the end of
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month or end of quarter results if we
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don't have an ethical climate a code of
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ethics a uh a policy of integrity first
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and so predictably with a bit of a
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shortcoming there in the leadership uh
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people did what you can almost
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anticipate without having to be inside
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the company they would do and and did do
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so good strategy take existing customers
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sell them additional products just like
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with the w with the uh razor blades take
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Men's Grooming products and add them on
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so strategy good but execu or rather
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leadership big big
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big failure um which was costly to we're
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now finding out and probably more than
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we know right now it's got a ways to
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play out okay and on the other side so
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we have the example of besides of course
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Microsoft that I talked about earlier
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with Steve bomber's inspirational
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leadership but not necessarily the best
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strategic choices in the new products
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very good in the existing products I
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think there is uh if you look at Daimler
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and its acquisition of Chrysler Yen shm
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was a celebrated CEO he had gained a lot
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of momentum selling asset selling assets
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that were not related to
00:12:36
automobiles uh and then he tried to
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answer the question of the analysts as
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to what's the US presence and where's
00:12:43
your midsized product and damler had
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tried for years and he decided to go you
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know being sort of a strong leader let's
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go and make a big statement and against
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perhaps a lot of internal debate bot
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Chrysler and that turned out to be a
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leader who was very strong had you know
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a good track record kind of committing
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to a transaction that ended up losing a
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lot of value it was bought for $37
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billion and sold 9 years later for $7.5
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billion it was for a company as
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successful as Daimler with a high
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quality management it's a very good
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example of you know just not pursuing
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not surfacing the right strategy and not
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being able to execute AR I think it's a
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great example on this terrain of
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strategy plus
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leadership when the announcement was
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made that Chrysler would be acquired or
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actually I think technically it was just
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simply a merger uh but it was acquired
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by diimler Jurgen shmp at one point
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publicly said uh for the first time in
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my life looking at the pay of the CEO of
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Chrysler at the time I'm feeling poor
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and that was a statement that the the
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pay structure for European Executives is
00:13:58
much lower much more modest compared to
00:14:00
American that was the tip of an iceberg
00:14:03
um Sailors beware now because um that
00:14:08
should have told you something that the
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the way of life not just compensation
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but the way um orders are given the way
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people convene a meeting all in this
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terrain of leading and acting uh they
00:14:22
were very different different cultures
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different cultur different corporate
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cultures in addition to National
00:14:28
cultures I guess harbir is is often
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citing statistics on the amazing rate of
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failure of even friendly Acquisitions
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yes uh so even though it can look to a
00:14:39
strategist at a company this is going to
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be a good merger right the failure to
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look at the leadership pieces I think
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often uh behind the the high rate of
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failure the parts are are not going to
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lead to a greater hole without the right
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leadership and and I think the the
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important point there if we look at at
00:14:59
the dialogue that has taken place in the
00:15:02
world of published books on strategy and
00:15:04
Leadership they're very segmented you
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have books on strategy that are very
00:15:08
kind of analytic and conceptual and you
00:15:10
know the beautiful strategies that you
00:15:12
can get from them books on leadership
00:15:14
very much on inspiration and you know
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engagement uh being part of something
00:15:19
larger than yourself and I think the
00:15:22
actual integration of the two uh is
00:15:26
extremely important and we discovered
00:15:27
that really in our teaching as as Mike
00:15:29
was saying we had an audience that
00:15:30
wanted to know about both and we wrote
00:15:32
the book really based on the teaching
00:15:34
materials we developed for that so would
00:15:37
it be correct to say that better than
00:15:39
having consciously having some managers
00:15:41
who were really good leaders and another
00:15:43
group that were really good at
00:15:44
strategizing and having them on a team
00:15:46
it's better to have them all sort of
00:15:50
trained in in both things I'm assuming
00:15:52
you would say that and then and that's
00:15:54
that that leads to my next question
00:15:55
which I think is so interesting is a
00:15:58
premise of the book is that these skills
00:16:00
can be taught right because we're
00:16:01
talking about these legendary leaders
00:16:03
it's easy to think well you know yes all
00:16:05
you have to do is be Steve Jobs to be
00:16:08
successful you know now go do it you
00:16:09
know it's like Buy Low sell High okay
00:16:12
it's very very easy advice but how do
00:16:13
you do it but you're saying that you can
00:16:16
actually teach these skills in both
00:16:18
strategy and Leadership which I think um
00:16:21
is is really interesting for companies
00:16:23
that that want to think this through and
00:16:24
do something about it you know if you
00:16:26
think about a starting career in in
00:16:29
business or really at any
00:16:31
organization some people are on a
00:16:34
strategy team or they're in strategy
00:16:36
Consulting worth a company other people
00:16:38
might be running a an office or a
00:16:40
division later if not sooner and early
00:16:44
on you might be more focused on strategy
00:16:48
and all the issues there uh over here
00:16:50
but then over here you may be more
00:16:52
concerned how do you get people to show
00:16:54
up at work and not quit and how do you
00:16:56
pay them and how do you motivate them to
00:16:57
get the job done but as people move up
00:17:01
into the middle ranks and certainly
00:17:03
above unequivocally you've got to be
00:17:05
strategic in thought and you've got to
00:17:07
lead well because all those functions
00:17:10
now are are in effect coming together
00:17:13
and uh with that uh We've Come to feel
00:17:16
that we are not fully servicing or we're
00:17:19
doing a disservice if people are leaving
00:17:22
from uh our many many different forms
00:17:24
where we work with people if we don't
00:17:27
really make the argument
00:17:29
later on if not sooner whatever you
00:17:32
begin in it might be more strategy it
00:17:33
might be more managing you're really
00:17:35
going to have to become great at both
00:17:38
and we offer a couple avenues for doing
00:17:40
that you want to talk about those
00:17:41
Avenues a little bit
00:17:43
Yeah I think just to and I'll turn it
00:17:46
over to Mike on learning how to be a
00:17:48
good leader but I just wanted to
00:17:50
elaborate on the earlier point which is
00:17:52
that uh depending on your career choice
00:17:55
you're not going to be in both you're
00:17:56
going to start maybe typically in
00:17:58
operation in some way maybe you join a
00:18:01
consulting firm but I think what people
00:18:03
have to recognize is that they have to
00:18:04
build a larger skill set and the but
00:18:07
then what is that skill set and I think
00:18:09
that's what this book is about so for
00:18:11
example if you are typically in
00:18:13
operations you should be thinking about
00:18:15
what's the value proposition to the
00:18:17
client because that's part of your
00:18:19
responsibility and you're becoming a
00:18:20
better strategic leader that way but
00:18:23
also you need to think about a very
00:18:25
crisp statement of strategy that's what
00:18:27
we talk about in the book that often
00:18:29
strategy statements are 10 15 PowerPoint
00:18:32
pages and what Carlos gon had was
00:18:35
essentially a half page version which
00:18:37
was these are the four profit drivers
00:18:40
and I think we're trying to what we're
00:18:42
trying to suggest is if you're in
00:18:43
operations you need to understand that
00:18:45
you really have to have a crisp view of
00:18:47
what drives profit in your business and
00:18:49
what's your value proposition on the
00:18:51
other side if you're on strategy or
00:18:53
Finance or a staff function you need to
00:18:56
think about executable decision you know
00:18:59
and look ahead to execution what are the
00:19:01
initiatives that best represent these
00:19:04
strategies and I think that's how people
00:19:06
can learn because you're only in one
00:19:07
part but you're trying to prepare for a
00:19:09
larger role and be good at both
00:19:12
inspiring people strategizing and
00:19:15
executing so how do you do all those
00:19:17
things so stretch yourself all along
00:19:19
yeah during your career from early in
00:19:20
your career learn from peers learn from
00:19:22
people who you who you can learn from as
00:19:25
mentors and Steve here are the three
00:19:27
avenues that we emphasize SI they're
00:19:29
pretty obvious as soon as I say them but
00:19:31
to get to them we do describe uh a
00:19:35
young uh manager named John Chambers in
00:19:38
the book who had worked with a company
00:19:41
that a lot of people don't even remember
00:19:43
Wang instruments which was there sort of
00:19:45
in the early days of the digital
00:19:47
Revolution huge success but it did a
00:19:50
total belly flop and went out of
00:19:52
business after a couple years of
00:19:54
extraordinary growth and John Chambers
00:19:57
from that experience um looking back on
00:19:59
it and he was he lost his job he was on
00:20:01
the street uh he said you know I've got
00:20:04
a better appreciation now for why a
00:20:06
company really has to know where it's
00:20:08
going where the Market's changing where
00:20:10
all the value added propositions are
00:20:13
going to be when especially all these
00:20:15
disruptive Technologies are coming along
00:20:17
and I've got to have a Workforce that's
00:20:19
ready to in that case change quickly
00:20:22
agile uh Wang apparently had neither of
00:20:25
those capacities so John Chambers hired
00:20:28
by
00:20:29
Cisco uh soon after he was in there
00:20:31
became chief executive and ran Cisco for
00:20:33
20 years and he has said we talked to
00:20:36
him as well that really three Avenues
00:20:40
are critical not only for him but and we
00:20:43
have picked this up from others as well
00:20:46
for combining those two functions that
00:20:48
harbir just described one is just think
00:20:51
about it study it pick up the book by
00:20:53
execution uh called execution by BOS and
00:20:56
RAM shiran Larry and RAM shiron um take
00:21:00
a course uh online course maybe a a
00:21:04
mid-career course that has strategy and
00:21:07
Leadership somehow combined or at least
00:21:09
as part of the general program read
00:21:12
about it think about it watch people
00:21:13
come and go number two really good to
00:21:16
find coaches and mentors people know a
00:21:19
lot about that so famously John Chambers
00:21:22
when Cisco with the digital collapse
00:21:25
back in1 when the internet had a big
00:21:28
Hiccup and seemed to get itself into a
00:21:31
lot of trouble uh the famous GE chief
00:21:34
executive Jack Wells called John up and
00:21:36
John Chambers and said John did you
00:21:38
learn anything and Chambers said well
00:21:40
it's been a hellish experience and
00:21:42
Chambers uh Welsh said well think what
00:21:45
you gone through and I'm coaching you
00:21:48
right now uh think what You' gone
00:21:50
through and don't let that happen again
00:21:52
and because you went through it you're
00:21:53
probably not going to let that happen
00:21:55
again and then finally John Chambers as
00:21:58
that market changed hugely over 20 years
00:22:01
making connectors and switches and all
00:22:03
the hardware that drives the internet uh
00:22:07
he has repeatedly had to learn how to
00:22:10
lead by literally doing it so he
00:22:13
concluded for example it's not our book
00:22:15
at one point a lot of ideas were down
00:22:18
there in the engineering ranks and they
00:22:20
just weren't getting up to those who
00:22:22
made the final sign off and whether to
00:22:23
go with him so he radically restructured
00:22:26
how decisions were made in
00:22:29
Cisco uh because he just he looked
00:22:32
around him looked around and said look
00:22:34
we got a better way to do it let's go
00:22:36
with it and thus think about it read
00:22:39
about it number one get coaches and
00:22:41
mentors number two and number three just
00:22:43
get out there put up your hand take a
00:22:45
job that requires both a leadership
00:22:48
skill set and an ability to think
00:22:51
strategically what haven't I asked you
00:22:53
that's important to know about your book
00:22:55
I'll give you each a shot at adding to
00:22:58
yes the book actually has a very Global
00:23:00
Perspective so we also talk about Jack
00:23:03
maah from Alibaba and the growth of
00:23:05
Alibaba and in that we he is very much a
00:23:08
strategic leader and he is uh what he
00:23:11
creates is a agility in the organization
00:23:14
adaptability but that's because he's
00:23:16
empowered his leaders to address
00:23:18
particular strategic problems so one is
00:23:21
the global part I think the other part
00:23:23
is just that um there is a protocol and
00:23:27
even in the case of was go and we go
00:23:29
back in his history and he was running
00:23:31
Michelin in North America where he
00:23:33
developed a template which he then
00:23:35
brought with him uh it was not conscious
00:23:38
but he actually used it when he was
00:23:41
deployed when he was sent to Nissan from
00:23:43
Renault so over time you build your sort
00:23:47
of repertoire of uh ways of managing and
00:23:50
linking them to strategy and Steve I
00:23:53
think I would add coming from an
00:23:55
interview we conducted with the chief
00:23:57
executive of in India's largest
00:23:59
non-state-owned bank it's a bank called
00:24:04
ICICI um Chanda kochar is the chief
00:24:06
executive today uh recently named by
00:24:09
Fortune as the fifth most powerful women
00:24:11
in business in the world and in our
00:24:14
interviews several interviews with her
00:24:17
uh she did make I think just a
00:24:20
fundamentally important point which is
00:24:22
as you reach the upper tiers of a
00:24:24
company like ICI or a big hospital or a
00:24:28
community
00:24:29
organization you want people below you
00:24:32
to think
00:24:33
strategically and to exercise leadership
00:24:36
and so she in recent years she's been
00:24:38
CEO now for several years has put a huge
00:24:42
emphasis she understands the combination
00:24:44
of the two on making certain the Next
00:24:47
Generation and the generation behind
00:24:49
them can think strategically and act
00:24:52
like a
00:24:53
leader well thank you very much for
00:24:56
thank you joining us and and uh look
00:24:58
forward to uh hearing more about this in
00:25:01
the future thank you thanks okay
00:25:14
[Music]
