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our guests today are Randy Street and Alan Foster uh and they have just written a book called power score we're
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going to talk to them about that today uh Randy Alan thank you so much for joining us today it's our pleasure it's
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great to be here great Randy I'd probably start with the first question with you uh you describe power score as
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a as a grand United theory of leadership boiled down to a single number what exactly does does that
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mean so we've been on a journey for the last 20 years as a firm and as individuals U thinking about
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leadership um boards and CEOs would call us and say hey we're we're about to make
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a big leadership change or decision of some sort and we need help to figure out how do we get the right people so our
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our day jobs have been interviewing CEO candidates and uh senior leaders for organizations of all different shapes
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and sizes uh and each interview has been a 5H hour interview or so and then 15 hours of analysis around that uh and
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over the course of the last 20 years we've we've interviewed over 15,000
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people and it occurred to us there's there's probably something to learn from
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that in terms of what what do successful leaders really do uh and over the last five years we've been digging deep into
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that data to understand it and what we have found is there are in fact three factors that drive success in leadership
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and we called the Grand unified theory uh very much like uh the way scientists describe the universe so scientists have
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been looking to figure out you know what is the grand unified theory of how the universe universe works and we figured
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if they can describe the universe surely we can describe leadership and in fact we've got these three factors that
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describe what success looks like absolutely so I'll turn to Alan to ask exactly what the power score is and how
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it's calculated and how did you come up with a concept what kind of research did
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you put into it yes so power score power is really an acronym the the P stands for priorities
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the W stands for Who and the r stands for relationships and uh as part of the 15,000 uh executive interviews that
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we've done over the last 20 years we we got a phone call about uh five years ago
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from Professor Steve Kaplan and a colleague of his at the University of Chicago he said aren't you sitting on
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what's probably the world's most valuable database of leadership I've got
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an Army of phds uh who I'd love to pour over it code it and analyze the heck out
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of it I bet we could learn something um are you up for that we said sure and uh and so we did and so they've been
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kicking the tires on on what really makes the difference and we actually had a whole different theory of leadership
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when we started writing the book but it the data the data didn't uh match it it
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didn't pan out so we we really had to say like what do leaders do differently
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and what we found is is they they all go about accomplishing three things they set the right priorities they get the
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right people in the right roles the right who the W and then they make the relationships work um the the the ARA
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relationships and so what we do with our with with the teams and the executives we work with is to say on a scale of 1
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to 10 uh to what extent you have the right priorities give yourself a score out of 10 to what extent do you have the
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right who the right people in the right roles score out of 10 and what extent do
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the relationships work again a score out of 10 and you've got three numbers out
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of 10 multiply them together and you've got yourself a score out of a thousand
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and that's the score we've been calculating with uh thousands of Executives to find out to what extent do
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they run at full power power being priorities who and relationships and what have you found so far of uh uh when
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you talk to Executives do you find that of all the three variables that make up the power acronym uh executives are good
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at all three or are they some that are they are better at than others so all three matter it's it's something like a
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triathlon if if you can't swim you're not going to win the triathlon and the
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same is true with the power score PW andr you have to be able to do all three and most leaders only do one or maybe
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two of those really well uh very few actually think to do all three much less are really good at all three but the
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stati statistics are amazing those who do all three well are easily twice as successful as the average leader and
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they're 20 times more successful than leaders who don't do any of those three
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things which of the three which is the easiest for most leaders to manage and which element of those three do they
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have the most trouble with so the easiest is definitely the r relationships so most leadership
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theories focus on behaviors and traits and how you should show up as a leader and that's all very important in
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leadership of course uh and so about half 47% of the leaders in our data set were reasonably good at
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building the the relationships that make a team function on the flip side uh the
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hardest one is the W the who which is hiring the right people uh removing people shifting people around on your
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team to make sure you've got the right people matched to the right priorities
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only 14% of leaders were excellent at that which means 86% of all leaders are completely ignoring one of the most
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important factors of being a successful leader which is getting that who question right it's funny and uh I was
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uh at a conference last week with about 150 CEOs and we were going through do you have the right priorities the right
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who the right relationships and at the end I say Okay a show of hands if you think about your score in each of those
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Dimensions the score you've given yourself which is the lowest which is pulling your overall score down the most
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and show of hands about 80% of the audience put up their hand for The Who as in like they struggle the most with
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getting the right people in the right roles interesting I i' come back to the
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who but let's let's start with the with the priorities uhan is are priorities the
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same as goals uh what's the difference well uh it's funny we we we had one client and
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and I said I said to the uh Chief Operating Officer um to what extent do you have the right priorities he said
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absolutely we do we we we we set goals I said well how many do you have and he said well I have
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164 and and I said you know that that must keep you quite busy he goes yes we're a very inclusive culture we're
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very bottom up we like people to set their own goals I mean it was a it was a it was a high achieving environment but
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they had no focus at all and so we find the best leaders are very good at setting priorities which actually means
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saying no to things like it's looking at all your potential goals and saying
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which are the three four or five that really matter goals really are what needs to happen and that's great but
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they don't really give you a sense for uh which ones actually tie back to your
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mission and why why they're important or how they relate to one another so you
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can have 164 goals no sense of priority a lot of diffused Focus through the organization so how do you think leaders
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can become better at setting priorities how did this leader go go about it so we
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uh you can obviously hire consultants for uh um millions of dollars and I'm sure they'll come up with a a great
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presentation we we have a slightly simpler way we we encourage leaders and Leadership teams to write what we call a
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scorecard which is to say given the mission and vision of what you're trying
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to do what are the five priorities and how do you talk about them in terms of like uh if you fast forward two or three
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years and you're thrilled with what you've got done what will you have delivered and it forces people to
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talking numbers it forces people to to have trade-offs and then we get a CEO if they've done that to share that with
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their leadership team and then we find everyone has a different point of view and then you just lock the door and you
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don't let them out until they've actually had some of these tough conversations about what are we not
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going to do versus just what we are going to do how how do you think priorities are
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linked with purpose and can you give any examples of leaders who are able to tie
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their priorities to the reason why the organization exist we've been working with a toga one day
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who uh is using a lot of his thinking around the checklist Manifesto uh to apply to um some of the
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most complex diseases and Health Care Health Care issues and uh when we very first spoke to him he said we said like
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why do you exist and he said I am trying to save harm or suffering from More Than
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A Million Lives over the next three years and and he's written about that and he has founded a laboratory an
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innovation lab called ariadne labs and what we find is it's like putting up a
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beacon into the sky like the bat signal and and and surgeons and Medics and professionals flock from all over the
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world um because his his mission uh just resonates with them um and then he then
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goes from that to say what are his three to five priorities but it all links back
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from that sense of purpose his his mission of what he's trying to do um how can you uh decide if your team's
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priorities are clear and and effective so it's one thing to think you've got the right priorities but then
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to make sure that you transmit them through the organization is another challenge I had a client recently share
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with me that he he had a senior team get together and think through priorities and they all padded each other on the
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back and said oh we've got our priorities we all agree and then they had a conversation with the next level
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down in the organization and there was a little more debate what really are our priorities I'm not sure are we aligned
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here and then they took the conversation to the next level down and that group of
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people basically said what priorities uh so there's definitely a challenge in organizations as you go
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through to create Clarity and the first thing that you need to do is limit yourself to that that three to five you
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know five really is the absolute limit of priorities that that we as humans can process and remember uh and the second
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piece is communication so just constantly communicating these are the five things whenever something comes up
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that's outside of those priorities calling it out saying you know what that's interesting that might
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even be important we should look at that but not now it's not part of our priorities I had a client say another
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client say whenever someone comes to her with something that's off the list she
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says make me care if you can show me how that connects to and supports one of our
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five priorities then we should think about doing it but if you can't we're
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not going to do it we're not going to put resources behind it so it's a combination of shortening the list from
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164 down to five and then communicating it constantly throughout the organization got it so now let's come to
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the really difficult part of the the power equation which is the who part how how can a leader select the right people
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for her or his team and make sure that they focused on the right priorities well you've actually begun to
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answer the question right there with that second piece which is make sure they're focused on the right priorities
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so uh the first mistake leaders make when it comes to hiring and thinking about their team is they're haven't even
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thought about their priorities in the first place assuming you actually have thought about your priorities the next
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question should not be how do we accomplish these priorities but rather who should accomplish these priorities
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which is where the the next big mistake comes most leaders don't think that they
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think about about the what questions and the how questions what do we need to do
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how do we need to do it rather than who do we need on the team to do it uh so question two is all about that who once
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you understand the priority who do we need on the team to accomplish it from there it's about following a structured
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process uh most leaders don't because they're not asking the right question in
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the first place uh and because they're distracted with all of the noise and you
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know the meetings and the conference calls and the 200 emails a day and all the other things coming along they don't
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put the actual energy into hiring the right people thinking about mapping their team to the right priorities and
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one of the things I found very interesting is you write in your book that this is
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the aspect of management that gives leaders the most heartburn uh how how can leaders become
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better at selecting the right people so it probably Begins by acknowledging what are all the mistakes
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that they typically make and on average uh nearly all the research proves that leaders are making mistakes about 50% of
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the time so half the time toss of a coin they're getting it wrong uh and they're
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using just a lot of um ill-informed techniques we call them uh uh Voodoo hiring uh uh tricks and uh for example
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uh should I be interviewing someone who is British and baling and has a slightly
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quirky sense of humor I'll probably think you know what they're pretty smart
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yeah I really like I can't put my finger on it but I really like that guy and we
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we tend to project ourselves onto the people that we see and yet we don't realize we have all these unconscious
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biases so the the very first part before you even get to like asking the correct
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questions is to acknowledge what are the mistakes that you're making right now
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but how do you go about removing underperformers and getting a players on your team how how how would you do that
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so first thing is understanding where you've got a B and C players if you want
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to use a sort of a classification system of your team and that goes back to the priorities Allan mentioned a little
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earlier a tool that we call a scorecard which basically just documents your priorities your mission and then the key
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priorities that you're pursuing uh and the best leaders actually take some time
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maybe once a quarter sit down look at the priorities map the team against them and ask the question how comfortable am
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I that these people are going to accomplish these things and if you have any doubt in your mind if there's a if
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you think well maybe it's 5050 that's not very good you're looking for a much
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higher degree of confidence 90% or even 100% degree of confidence that those people will accomplish those priorities
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I'm I'm thinking of uh the our client um Panos who uh who who took ry's advice
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and did exactly that and and he uh he emailed us about a year and a half ago and said uh you know what I've been
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following your advice we like well what advice would that be we can't remember
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and he said well every quarter I sit down and I map out who's my team if I was only allowed to have 50% of my
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people who's on my boat and then he goes okay now if I was allowed 75% of people
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who would I add to the team then he goes to 85% and then at 85% he goes who have
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I not who's not on this team who's not on this boat and he guys at that point I
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need to look in the mirror and ask myself some pretty tough questions about whether or not these are the right
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people moving forward and to make some tough decisions do you have any examples of leaders who do a really good job of
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managing The Who and I would love to know what they do differently than other leaders so from a a process
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perspective uh the best leaders that we work with start by thinking about their team against the priorities uh the
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second thing is they do remove the weaker people and in some cases that means moving them to a different place
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in the company or the organization uh and then third they get very aggressive about hiring um Kristen Russell comes to
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mind she is the uh former uh head of it in the state of Colorado and she had some big jobs at Oracle I believe and a
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couple of big uh big it shops she considers herself a chief recruiting officer she says you know I may be a CIO
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but my real job is cro chief Chief recruiting officer and she's constantly on the hunt for great talent constantly
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sourcing interesting people that she may be able to bring into her organization or maybe refer to other people uh within
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the organization or other organizations for that matter um and then she follows a structured process to actually hire
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those people as well which is the other piece of the magic so it's it's understanding that you need to have
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these people it's putting that Chief recruiter Hat on at all times then following a structured process to to
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hire them against the priorities it's funny when we did the analysis of if you look at every single
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executive we've ever interviewed and met and we look at what's the number one
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risk or regret of that of that executive the thing they wish they' done differently W by far the number one is I
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wish I had moved faster on the people I deep down knew weren't the right people
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on the team but we feel conflicted we feel like well maybe it's my fault they're not performing maybe I should
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give them one more chance maybe it will look bad it will look bad on me and so they we we're very good at justifying
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why tomorrow we'll probably be a different person we'll take action but just for the just for the moment let's
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just keep the team as it is um I wonder if you could since you talk about recruiting uh uh discuss a little bit
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about the interview process and what are some of the most common errors you find
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the voodoo hiring the voodoo hiring that people make and and and how can you eliminate those errors from the from the
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interview process sure so I we can maybe banter back and forth on this because this is this isent of them Rich
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territory one that comes to mind uh that I think is very very common is the hypothetical question we call it the
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fortune teller mol what would you do if you joined our team which right now is a
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little dysfunctional how would you fix it it's it's a forward-looking question
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and the problem is you get hypothetical answers so if you were to ask me you know Randy um I understand that you you
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followed the uh the space shuttle and the Apollo program when you were a kid how would you get to the moon I could
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actually answer that question I know how to get to the Moon how to get to the moon but I couldn't get you to the
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Moon uh and the same is true here you could based on your education based on examples you've seen you could make
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things up and unfortunately that's not really a predictor of how somebody will
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behave their past performance is a predictor but not some projection of the future so don't ask hypothetical
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questions what's another good one Alan another another voodo technique that we see is um what we call the the
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Sutter and this is when you know you've got a good candidate in front of you and
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you feel immense pressure to try and impress them and to somehow make them join your company so you talk and you
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tell them how great it is and why you joined and you you're just trying to sell them and then you get to the end of
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40 minutes and you've forgotten to ask them any questions any difficult and you're like well I I quite liked them
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but I probably should have got a bit deeper um and and and we find that all too often happens again we're trying to
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get the data to understand what's this person really about and does that mean
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they're going to be able to accomplish my priorities or not one last one to mention it's what Allan mentioned about
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that strange attraction he has to the balding men when he's like balding British men I think they're going to be
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really good in the job we tend to be art critics you know you you see the painting on the wall you like it for
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some reason you can't really tell why it's just something you like and so you
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end up hiring that person uh it could be a common interest or common background or something and you end up hiring
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people not based on what they're able to do for you and with your team but based
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on some gut feel that's not substantiated by any real data I had a client last week and and I said well why
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did you give the offer to the CFO and and the CEO said to me say he was reassuringly
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tall that may be true but that's not the same person who can close the books on
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time execute on the m&a or the things you actually need them to get done so let let's turn now to the r part of the
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of of of the power uh score uh how how can leaders develop relationships that actually deliver
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results as you write in your book yeah that's right um we we we find that uh um
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I don't know about your calendar but mine is full of meetings and it always has been and they seem to be getting
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more frequent and longer and um we find that this is true across across uh America and around the world people are
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just putting stuff into my calendar and what we're finding is often the wrong
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people are coming together at the wrong time to talk about the wrong things in an unstructured way and you know
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meetings lack healthy conflict they lack any sense of coordination and forward progress and so one of the number one
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things we do is um having good relationships isn't about just liking one another it's about how do we get
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coordinated here how do we bring the right people together at the right time and probably half your meetings should
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be uh 30 minutes shorter and some of them should be much longer um and most of us our calendars uh look the same as
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they kind of did two years ago and we don't update like who are we talking to
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and when and why so getting coordinated is one of the the key thrust the other two big ones are uh building commitment
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with your team and challenging your team uh and this is where most leadership theories and leadership books and uh
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programs really focus their energy on these two things building commitment is all about building commitment uh Mutual
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commitment with one another uh commitment to the organization and the cause commitment to the leader uh and
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there's obviously a wide range of things that you as a leader can and should do
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chief among those is how you show up as a leader so this is where role modeling comes in and following through on
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commitments and getting things done as a leader uh comes in and how you how you set the stage to enable that team to
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create Mutual commitment and then the challenging piece is how do you challenge the team to be their very best
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this is where motivation and inspiration comes in this is where uh you begin to push people beyond what they think they
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can do on their own and to see what's possible to do when you bring the collective talents together into a group
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so getting coordinated as Allan shared and then working to help the team commit and challenging them those three levers
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really seem to uh be the big ones that that form the relationships where 1 plus 1 equals 5 and you get that multiplier
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effect in terms of results so I mean there are so many meetings that I have attended and I'm sure that you may have
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attended uh simply are about status updates uh C can you suggest some ways that meetings can become more meaningful
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MH yeah so we uh we believe in healthy conflict we think that there needs to be if you're
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not feeling slightly awkward or you know if you can't feel uh you you you leaning
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forward um then then you're probably talking about the wrong things like this
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is not about process updates and and uh and scheduling and the rest of it this is about how do we cut to the thing
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where we fundamentally disagree where reasonably smart people disagree let's
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talk about that and you want to see drama and and if it's not memorable then
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then then you should probably shift the agenda so what a tool gnd who we spoke about earlier did actually threw he blew
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up the status meeting completely threw it out and and basically said to everyone you have to submit a problem
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that we're going to solve and this is going to be a problemsolving meeting rather than a status update and at first
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you know people were very uncomfortable with that over time it has become electrifying for the team I think
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because now they're coming together to actually tackle real issues solve real
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problems not give each other status updates which could be read on an email or shared in another format
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how how important is commitment to a team success and do you think it's inborn or can lead us
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created go ahead Alan yeah yeah so we um let me think um we we believe commitments really
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important uh if you uh if you don't feel like your colleagues have your back then
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you're you're really going to be um FL foundering um you know we we see the
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most committed teams have actually really gone through some pretty tough times so they haven't just been out on a
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Sunday drive with the sun shining they've actually you know been to Helen Back um and as like as Winston Churchill
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said like If You're Going Through Hell keep going and and so um we find the most committed teams have either had
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this incredible like Crucible moment where they've leared to work together but we also find other leaders they try
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and accelerate that process and that discussion and some of the best leaders we know they say at some point this
00:26:05
project this team it's going to suck it's going to be terrible like it's
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going to be a we don't know what it's going to be now when that happens upon
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what can we rely on in each other and and having that conversation ahead of time almost like rehearsing for the bad
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times uh can really make the difference two two leaders coming to mind one is caperton flood who is actually a former
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colleague of ours at uh banan company and he actually has that conversation upfront when the case team comes
00:26:33
together what Mutual commitments are we willing to make to each other as we do this project uh and this is when people
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will say well you know what I I prefer not to work past 8:00 pm because I've
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got children and I want to be putting them to bed well what happens if the client calls and there's an urgent
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matter so they actually problem solve that before they even get into the real life scenario so that's the rehearsing
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uh that Allen was sharing and they they drafted up and signed this document this
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is what we're committing to so that's one version another coming to mind is
00:27:03
John zilmer uh John zilmer uh uh at one point was in in charge of a division of Aramark and when he inherited it his
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boss said hey you know John is taking this on he's going to be the caretaker
00:27:17
of this business and John thought caretaker I don't want to be a caretaker and it was a poorly performing business
00:27:25
and he didn't want to caretake this poorly performing business so he took his team his new team offsite and
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basically shared all of the results from the past year which weren't particularly
00:27:36
good and they said all right I want you to come back tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. and we're going to do something and wear
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your gym shorts and the leaders were thinking gym shorts uh oh they show up the next day in their gym shorts a van
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takes them out to a skip Barber racetrack so this is kind of that classic team building and they have a
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wonderful day racing cars together and when they come back John all right looks like you can learn new tricks so what I
00:28:01
want to know is what are you willing to do as a team what's possible here and
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over the next few hours this group of people actually began to challenge one another and they came up with goals that
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were actually greater than what John had envisioned and over the course of the year he fostered it so he said all right
00:28:18
here's the deal if we can accomplish these goals we're going to come back
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next year we're do the we'll do the three-day racing course so first quarter they were making
00:28:27
their numbers John sent them racing gloves and a note that said congratulations second quarter they're
00:28:34
still making their numbers he sends them the racing suit with their their names on it third quarter they're making their
00:28:40
numbers he sends them the the helmet and sure enough they make it they they show
00:28:45
up the next year and they did this this wonderful three-day program and it was a
00:28:48
just a wonderful Testament of how a leader almost manufactured commitment in a team that didn't have it by creating a
00:28:56
shared experience and building on that shared experience that they took ownership of and
00:29:02
ultimately delivered the results against so let's as a last question try to put it all together because I think
00:29:10
we could keep talking about this for a long time uh if you look at all the three elements that youve talked about
00:29:17
the P the W and the r how can leaders improve the power score of their teams so what we're finding with our a
00:29:28
lot of our clients is they sit down and they have a conversation with their team
00:29:34
and they said what's our power score to which the team said what on Earth are
00:29:38
you talking about H and and then he explains it said okay everyone get out a piece of paper uh get out of pen and now
00:29:45
write down a number between 1 and 10 as the answer to these questions to what extent do we have the right priorities
00:29:51
do we have the right who the right people in the right roles and do the relationships work and then they all
00:29:57
held up their scores multiply them together multiply your three numbers together all the scores
00:30:02
are different and it's and and it Fosters a lot of curiosity and puzzlement and like really you scored it
00:30:09
a four I scored it of nine that's and then and then it leads to the right discussion and what our best clients do
00:30:16
is they don't just have that as a one-off conversation it becomes something they actually begin to track
00:30:20
monthly or on a quarterly basis once you identify what's what's so the beauty of the power score going back
00:30:27
to the Grand UniFi theory is it does highlight where you have an issue so if your overall power score is
00:30:33
432 uh what are you going to do about it where are you weaker is it the priorities aren't clear is it that the
00:30:40
who aren't right is it the relationships aren't working it very quickly allows
00:30:45
you as a leader and as a team this is by the way a leader with his or her team exercise not something you do in a
00:30:51
vacuum so the whole team can look at that and say what do we need to do how do we go from 432 to 500 to 600 to 700
00:30:58
and up uh it becomes an enormously clarifying vehicle for identifying the issues and focusing in on those those
00:31:06
issues that will drive the results and the beauty of it is the research shows if you can drive the P the W and the r
00:31:11
you will get results you'll be more successful than the average leader and the average team by orders of magnitude
00:31:17
and that's where the fund starts great well that's a great note to end on So
00:31:22
Randy Allan thank you so much for speaking with knowledge at Wharton our pleasure thank you
00:31:34
[Music]