00:00:05
You know, on the surface, something that appears to be fairly simple, you know, you know, it's honey and chili peppers, but the actual infusion process is a lot more complicated than meets the eye.
00:00:15
Like a good wine.
00:00:17
Yes.
00:00:18
Yes.
00:00:18
And I think, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's very hard to patent a recipe in the food world.
00:00:24
It's not something that you can commonly patent.
00:00:27
So really what you're doing is you're building a brand.
00:00:29
You're listening to Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network, our weekly podcast where we analyze the latest in advertising, marketing, customer behavior, new product launches, retailing, branding, everything marketing.
00:00:42
I'm Barbara Kahn, the Patty and J.H. Baker Professor of Marketing, and I'm joined by my co-host, Americus Reid, the Whitney M.
00:00:50
Young Jr. Professor of Marketing and the brand identity theorist.
00:00:54
And he has a new identity theorist speech that you should tune in on a whole new idea that maybe we could talk about later as well.
00:01:02
But today we are very happy to be joined by Mike Kurtz, who's the founder of Mike's Hot Honey.
00:01:11
If you haven't heard of this product, it's a cult favorite.
00:01:14
It's founded in 2010 by our guest, Mike Kurtz in Brooklyn, New York, and you know what happens in Brooklyn has got to be trendy and cool.
00:01:23
But what it is, is honey that's infused with chili.
00:01:27
And it's an interesting story about how you can take a pretty simple idea and turn it into an entirely new category.
00:01:35
And along the way, kind of reinvent the marketing toolkit.
00:01:38
And so we're really excited to talk to Mike about this incredible story.
00:01:43
So welcome, Mike, to our show.
00:01:45
Well, thank you for having me, guys.
00:01:47
It's an honor to be speaking with you.
00:01:49
Before you jump in, Barbara, I just want to say, Mike, thank you so much.
00:01:53
I am team salty and sweet.
00:01:55
And your product is phenomenal because I am team hot and heavy.
00:02:00
So there you go.
00:02:03
The perfect compliment.
00:02:04
And so I remember having it on my chicken and waffles, Mike, and it was so let's start with the origin story.
00:02:10
I read, Mike, that you saw this product in 2004 in Brazil.
00:02:15
And that's kind of maybe that's true.
00:02:17
Maybe it's what the Internet says.
00:02:19
You can tell us if that's true, but that you kind of took that idea and ran with it.
00:02:24
And a lot of what happened over the time was the collaborations and the interest.
00:02:29
And I don't think Brooklyn was irrelevant either.
00:02:33
So why don't you tell us the way you know your origin story?
00:02:37
Yeah.
00:02:37
So I was a college student studying Portuguese in Brazil in 2003.
00:02:46
And on a weekend trip, I went to a national park with some friends.
00:02:50
We went hiking for a few days.
00:02:52
We were camping, you know, eating food over the campfire for a few days.
00:02:56
And then at the end of our trip and the last day of the hike, we descended into a little valley and we found a pizzeria there that had jars of honey with whole chili peppers steeping in the honey for drizzling on the pizzas.
00:03:11
And I tasted the combination of honey and chili peppers on this pizza and I was blown away and just loved the combination of the sweet floral notes of the honey with the heat from the chili peppers and the savory elements of the pie and the way it all came together.
00:03:29
It just kind of stuck with me.
00:03:32
This is not a Brazilian thing.
00:03:34
It's not something that's common in Brazil.
00:03:36
And the owner of the pizzeria is not Brazilian.
00:03:40
He's, I believe he's Swiss, but had settled there and had a tiny little pizzeria in this valley.
00:03:47
So that was the inspiration that led to the creation of Mike's Hub Honey.
00:03:53
I got back to the States a year later.
00:03:55
I was a senior in college.
00:03:57
I kept on thinking about that experience and I started experimenting with honey chili pepper infusions in my college apartment.
00:04:04
Came up with the recipe.
00:04:06
I was trying to infuse the flavor and the heat of chili peppers into honey, but I wanted to create something that was truly an infused honey, not a honey based sauce.
00:04:20
Got it.
00:04:22
So I tested lots of different ways to infuse heat and flavor into honey until I landed on the recipe that we still use today.
00:04:33
My roommate walked into the apartment, saw me drizzling it on a slice of pizza, asked me what it was.
00:04:38
I said, it's Mike's Hub Honey.
00:04:40
Those are the first words out of my mouth and it just stuck.
00:04:43
That's fantastic.
00:04:45
You know, so Mike, I could imagine going to a restaurant or Brazil or anywhere in the world, tasting something really good, maybe trying to reproduce it, but the next step, taking it to a product, that wouldn't be my inclination.
00:04:59
Like that to me is a huge leap.
00:05:00
I mean, that's a cool story, but that's just like for your own use and maybe your roommates.
00:05:06
How did you, what made you think to start a business?
00:05:11
Right.
00:05:11
Because we always talk about Mike, to Barbara's point, is that this challenge of something that you experience inside your own body feels so powerful and visceral and real, but you're not sure.
00:05:22
It's like, will other people feel this way?
00:05:24
Or even if they do, you could just serve it to them at dinner.
00:05:26
You don't have to start a whole business.
00:05:28
Yes.
00:05:29
So talk to us about that entrepreneurial mindset that apparently took over so greatly.
00:05:34
Yeah.
00:05:35
Well, I mean, it was a hobby for a long time before it became a business.
00:05:39
So, you know, when I, when I first started making it, I was just, my intent was to just make it for my own personal use.
00:05:45
And I'm always been a big pizza guy.
00:05:48
My friend's family growing up owned a pizzeria.
00:05:51
I was always around pizza, love pizza.
00:05:53
And, you know, thought of this as this incredible new pizza condiment that I could use at home.
00:05:58
So I started making it for myself.
00:06:00
And then eventually I was giving it out to friends and family around the holidays and people would try it and they'd come to my house.
00:06:07
And, you know, everybody who tried it had the same reaction.
00:06:10
It was always like, oh, you know, and so there was like a one second delay and then the heat and hits on the back of the palate.
00:06:20
Yeah.
00:06:20
And a lot of people just love it.
00:06:26
Research results, as they say.
00:06:29
You know, and, you know, I think everybody's tasted chili peppers and honey on their own, but most people had never experienced the combination of those two things in their purest form.
00:06:39
And it turned out to be this magical combination and, you know, people seem to love it.
00:06:45
So it was really, it was six years of, of, of it being a hobby.
00:06:50
I moved to New York right after I graduated from college.
00:06:53
I worked in the music business at a record label and we had a bottle of Mike's out, honey, in the break room there.
00:07:00
So my colleagues at the record label, we used to joke about it.
00:07:03
Oh, you know, maybe this will be a business someday.
00:07:05
Ha ha ha.
00:07:06
You know, but, but I didn't really think too seriously about it until I, I started working as a pizza apprentice at Paulie G's in Greenpoint, Brooklyn.
00:07:17
You know, my, my passion for pizza led me there.
00:07:21
And, um, I met Paulie when he first opened the restaurant in 2010 and he came by my table as I was finishing up my meal.
00:07:29
And we started, uh, chatting about his business, his pizza oven, his dough recipe.
00:07:34
And I was hitting him with all these questions about, you know, his pizza.
00:07:38
And, and he could tell I was really into making pizza and invited me to become an apprentice there.
00:07:43
So I, I took him up on, on, on his, his offer.
00:07:47
I started going in after my day job, learning how to stretch dough, um, learning all the, the, the, the prep process and working the oven.
00:07:56
And eventually I was fast enough.
00:07:58
They started putting me on dinner shifts and I started working there making pizzas.
00:08:02
That's incredible.
00:08:04
I know I brought in a bottle of Mike's up, honey, which at the time just, you know, had the recipe and the name, but no, no branding, no packaging around it.
00:08:12
And, um, he tasted it and he liked it and asked me if I could make it for the restaurant to use on top of the pies.
00:08:17
And I started making it, um, one small batch at a time in the back of the pizzeria, summer of 2010.
00:08:23
And once people could taste it on the pizzas, you know, it just became a hit out of the restaurant.
00:08:28
They started asking me where they can buy bottles.
00:08:30
And I wasn't selling bottles.
00:08:32
I was selling unmarked, started selling unmarked, uh, pint containers out of the back of the kitchen in the beginning.
00:08:38
And then eventually I, I, uh, Mike, my roommate at the time, um, John Osorico was a childhood friend of mine.
00:08:46
Actually, one of my good friends were kindergarten.
00:08:49
Um, we moved to New York together.
00:08:51
He, uh, was, uh, starting his career in graphic design and he designed the original packaging for the products.
00:09:00
Um, he obviously knew me very well and, and, you know, we, we decided we really wanted to make something that felt classic, but felt like it could fit in with the other products that you might find in a pizzeria and, um, created the original packaging in, in, uh, 2010.
00:09:16
And then we started selling the first bottles off the bar at Pauly G's November of 2010.
00:09:22
Wow.
00:09:22
I love that.
00:09:23
Can I just say, I want to be a pizza apprentice?
00:09:26
I just, it sounds like that would be like the coolest thing ever.
00:09:29
You have the right background.
00:09:30
You're a musician just like Mike.
00:09:32
And that clearly leads right to pizza making.
00:09:35
Yeah, absolutely.
00:09:36
It's a clear, it's a clear connection there.
00:09:38
I love this.
00:09:39
There's something, there's something great about working, um, working with the dough and, um, where, where, you know, the, the layout for Pauly G's, the, the pizza oven and the, and the, the make table where the pies are made is open to the floor of the restaurant.
00:09:53
So we call it the pizza theater.
00:09:56
Ah, so there's this theatrical element where you're up there making pizzas, but you're also performing, you know, and you're, you know, you're putting on a show for folks who are dining there and you get to interact with them and they can see you.
00:10:06
So it's, it's a, it was a fun place to work and, and, and wood fire pizza at the time was pretty new in New York city.
00:10:15
Um, so it was, you know, we had like a two hour wait every night and it was a, it was an exciting time to be working.
00:10:20
You know what I love about you telling the story so carefully.
00:10:23
So like, and then this happened is it's clearly authentic.
00:10:27
I mean, it's clearly, this is exactly what happened.
00:10:30
It wasn't top down.
00:10:31
It was kind of the way it happened.
00:10:33
And my guess is when we go into the rest of it, cause the rest of the story gets like amazing, like this stuff on ice cream, the partnerships you did, but I'm just guessing.
00:10:42
And I haven't heard you tell it yet that it kept going along this way, slowly, steady, things just kind of happened authentically.
00:10:49
And that's part, this is my guess of what resonated with people.
00:10:54
Also.
00:10:54
It's as much the story as the product.
00:10:57
Do you think that's true?
00:11:00
Yeah, I think people certainly connected with the story, especially the pizza community and, and we can get into that later, but you know, the pizza community really became the back, absolutely.
00:11:11
And they became the, the, the, the backbone of the brand.
00:11:16
And, and, you know, the, the, the pizzerias around the country that became the first pizzerias to feature the product really exposed their communities to our brand.
00:11:27
And so, so that was really like the framework that initially helped us grow and, you know, still really the backbone of the brand today.
00:11:36
But I think, you know, it was, it was a combination of, of that community.
00:11:40
And also just people loved what was in the bottle before there was any packaging on it, you know, people, people liked the products.
00:11:49
But I do like the idea of this community, the pizza community, because that obviously that viral bottom up community engagement is a big way to grow exponentially.
00:12:00
Like if you just stayed in that little, one little pizzeria, you know, with your friends, it would have been a great experience, two-hour waits every day, but it wouldn't be the international success or national success it is today.
00:12:12
And, and that is interesting to tap into a close-knit community, the pizza community that has certain characteristics, certain like loyalty, almost like a sports community.
00:12:25
And then I think you partnered eventually with California Pizza Kitchen, right?
00:12:30
Is that, which is- Yeah, lots of, lots of pizza chains all over the country have picked up the product.
00:12:38
But yeah, it was kind of, I think the pizza, pizzerias around the country that were maybe, you know, the, the best pizzeria in their respective markets, they, they saw the success that we were having with, with the honey at Polly G's.
00:12:55
And, you know, they felt like this was a product that was kind of like of the pizza community that was one of their own.
00:13:03
And so they kind of adopted the brand and, and also my own, you know, my passion for pizza, my own curiosity and my, my search for, for great pizza led me to meet all these people.
00:13:14
And it sort of happened organically.
00:13:15
Like, you know, my, my, my customers became my friends and, and we all sort of became this big family.
00:13:22
And now like I could go to any town in the US and, and there's a great pizzeria using our product who's taking pride in what they're doing.
00:13:31
And you couldn't ask for a better vehicle for somebody to taste your product.
00:13:35
Somebody who's, who's really putting passion and great quality and care into, into the pizza they're serving.
00:13:40
So since you're in this pizza community, do you know the pizza guy on Barstool?
00:13:45
Do you know, like that guy who goes around New York and tastes pizzas?
00:13:50
I've, I've never met him, but I know of him.
00:13:53
Yeah.
00:13:53
Portnoy, Portnoy, I believe is his last name.
00:13:56
Yeah.
00:13:56
That's interesting.
00:13:57
But it's funny because that's part, another aspect of this community, you know, it's kind of, uh, people really seem invested in their pizza.
00:14:06
And their reviews for pizza.
00:14:08
Yeah.
00:14:08
I love that point, Mike.
00:14:09
So let me ask you this, cause this is kind of interesting as Barbara's talking about, we, we, and something, you know, we discuss in marketing a lot is the so-called product life cycle, right?
00:14:18
Introduction, growth, and all of that kind of stuff.
00:14:21
Talk a little bit about as you began to get really big and to Barbara's point about, you have this community that's really the, the pillar of where it started, core users, if you will, family was the word you use as you start to scale and get bigger and start to bring in lots more people and businesses into the space.
00:14:39
What were some of the, both the sort of marketing, perhaps challenges, but also the challenges that are associated with trying to scale, but also trying to hold onto that authenticity and the core, like what, what were some of the things that you did to do that in a, in a much less frictionless way?
00:14:57
Yeah.
00:14:58
So the, you know, we're a New York brand and we're, we're, we're based in Brooklyn, right around the corner from the pizzeria where, where this all started.
00:15:10
And we, we, we've held onto that identity.
00:15:12
And I think we, we, you know, as we've grown, we still try to operate like a small brand.
00:15:17
And I, you know, when I was, when I was launching the products, I had gone through the supermarket and I'm looking at the brands on the shelf and there's some, there's some quality products on the shelf.
00:15:28
There's some stuff that's not so good.
00:15:30
But I think like in terms of branding and marketing, I saw a real opportunity to connect with people in a more genuine, authentic way than, than some of the brands on the shelf were, were doing at the time.
00:15:41
And I think that's definitely changed in the last, you know, 15, 20 years, even bigger brands have, have, have, have focused more on trying to connect in a genuine way with consumers.
00:15:51
But 20 years ago, it was, you walk down the aisle and you just see a lot of brands that are just disconnected from their, their, their consumer base.
00:16:00
And so I thought, man, you know, this is, there's certainly an opportunity here to connect with people in a genuine way.
00:16:06
So as, as we grew, we always tried to hold on to the, our, our New York community and focus on our New York community and the New York storytelling.
00:16:15
And that's, what's true to us.
00:16:17
Let me interrupt you for one second, because that to me is a light bulb moment, because you're talking about the growth strategy.
00:16:25
So, you know, one way to scale is just increased penetration, which is what America's was talking about, what you were talking about.
00:16:30
You go from a small community to a big community.
00:16:33
The second way to grow is like, okay, what are we going to do next?
00:16:36
And one way you could do it is, okay, you have hot honey.
00:16:40
Let's now have, um, I don't know, cucumber honey.
00:16:43
I'm just making that up.
00:16:44
Obviously that's one good idea, but you know, or you could go to maple syrup.
00:16:48
You could go to some other product or you could stay with the product and go deeper into your community.
00:16:54
And it seems like that's more like what you did because you went more into like, what else could you take my product and put it on that my community would like?
00:17:05
And maybe they would like it on ice cream or maybe they would.
00:17:08
I mean, it's just slightly different kind of strategy.
00:17:11
Was that deliberate?
00:17:12
And by the way, you were talking, you know, that you felt like this connection with your community.
00:17:19
Yeah.
00:17:19
It sounds like that is what was driving your next steps.
00:17:22
And by the way, Mike, you're free to use any of Barbara's ideas.
00:17:25
We've got cucumbers on the table.
00:17:26
We've got ice cream.
00:17:28
Yeah.
00:17:28
Feel free.
00:17:29
Take any of those ideas and run with them.
00:17:33
Well, yeah.
00:17:34
I mean, there's no, there's no like secret to how we we've, we've done this.
00:17:39
It's really just, again, it's like we're, we're a New York brand.
00:17:42
If you live in New York, that's like some of the best marketing education you could get just living in New York, regardless of whether you work in the field of marketing or not.
00:17:50
You're exposed to all these brands, all these artists, culture that's, that's, that's exported from New York around the world.
00:17:57
So, you know, there's, there's real power in being a brand rooted in New York and just living, being outside involved in the community in New York.
00:18:05
You meet so many people, you make so many connections and, and you, you feed back into that community.
00:18:11
That's, that's kind of how we, we built the brand.
00:18:13
We, we, you know, we didn't, we didn't try to look too far beyond our, our, our, our local community in New York.
00:18:21
And then, as I mentioned before, the larger pizza community, which is really a global community of people who just love pizza.
00:18:29
And with the growth of the internet and social media, people are now able to share so much of that information and, and know-how and, and, and, and, and their experiences.
00:18:38
And so pizza overall has just gotten better around the world just because of the information sharing that's going on.
00:18:44
But, but yeah, New York has, has played a huge role for us as a, as a brand, you know,
00:18:50
and, and I think that it's, it's obviously become, it becomes more and more challenging
00:18:56
as you grow and you're partnering with, with bigger and bigger brands and these partnerships,
00:19:01
whether it's with a restaurant or with a, a, a CPG product, you're, you're bringing
00:19:08
two brands together with two different identities and, and, and different histories.
00:19:12
And, and you're trying to respect both brands and do it in a, in a, in a, in a classy way, you know?
00:19:18
And so the, the only way to do it, I think, is to just be, be truthful about what it is.
00:19:24
It's like, you know, we partner with trying to think of an example.
00:19:30
It's like, we partner with Lumal Nadis, which is a, an icon of the Chicago pizza scene, you know, and they're, they're famous for their Chicago thin crust and deep dish pizza and they're an institution in Chicago.
00:19:42
And it was a big deal for us as a New York brand to partner with them.
00:19:45
But a lot of the marketing around that partnership really played up that, that relationship and the tension between Chicago and New York, that sort of history of, of, you know, New Yorkers looking down on Chicago as a second city and Chicagoans having this sort of like animosity towards New York.
00:20:02
I mean, we played that up in the, in, in, in some of the marketing and, and, and then, you know, as, as that relationship grew, they, that, that brand and Lumal Nadis, they exposed us to the Chicago market in a really big way and endeared us to Chicagoans.
00:20:20
And so, you know, now, for example, we just launched a, a CPG product with Garrett, the popcorn brand that's based out of Chicago, another iconic Chicago brand.
00:20:30
That's awesome.
00:20:31
And, you know, Garrett is not, it may not be known like globally or even nationally, but if you're in the Midwest or in the greater Chicago area, that's a big deal.
00:20:41
It's a brand that really means something to people.
00:20:43
And so when we, when we look at partnerships, we're, we're trying to partner with brands that, that share our, share our values, love partnering with brands that have a rich history.
00:20:56
And we try to, we try to honor their, their history when we're, we're promoting the brands.
00:21:01
Oh, I'm looking at your list of collaborations and I'm seeing the pattern.
00:21:05
Duncan is like a Boston brand.
00:21:08
Utz is a Pennsylvania brand.
00:21:10
These are brands with passionate communities.
00:21:13
Big time.
00:21:14
That's really interesting.
00:21:15
I didn't see that till you connected the dots for me.
00:21:19
Nice.
00:21:19
Yeah.
00:21:20
You know, Utz, Utz was a fun one.
00:21:21
We did a, we did a, we have potato chips with Utz.
00:21:25
Mike's a honey chips and, and they are, they're delicious and really fun.
00:21:29
You know, after selling a very novel product that you had to, you have to explain to people for many, many years, it's great to sell a, to, to promote a, a potato chip.
00:21:40
Everybody knows what to do with potato chips.
00:21:42
So that was like, that was a, that was a fun, fun vehicle for, for the brand, but also, you know, and, you know, for, for us as a New York brand, when we promoted that partnership, we looked at like, what does Utz mean to New Yorkers?
00:21:55
And to New Yorkers, Utz is the, is, is the bodega potato chip.
00:22:00
That's when, you know, growing up, you go to the bodega, you go to the corner store, you grab a little bag of Utz with your sandwich.
00:22:05
Like that's, you know, every, every kid who grows up in New York experiences that.
00:22:09
So we, we have a friend whose aunt owns a bodega in Corona, Queens, and she let us have the bodega for, for a day.
00:22:17
We, we shot a bunch of content there, but we tried to center it around that experience and sort of connect to the nostalgia that, that New Yorkers have for, for, for that brand.
00:22:29
So one of the things that we talk about in marketing, and I don't want, I don't actually want to label you like this because I feel like what you're doing is authentic and I don't want to put it in this category, but there is kind of theory in marketing about cult brands, brand love, this kind of notion that those are different types of brands.
00:22:50
And like I said, I don't want to label it because it, it feels like not fair, but it does sound like you're describing something in terms of brand building.
00:22:59
That's a very different style of marketing than some of this, like Superbowl ads, you know, or something like that.
00:23:06
And so like really different in that sense in that you're really going into the community, into the cult and to the quote unquote, brand love, the relationship between the customer and that homegrown bodega brand.
00:23:19
And then the advantage of that is the relationship is genuine and you turn those customers into advocates.
00:23:25
So the marketing becomes the word of mouth marketing.
00:23:28
And I mean, does that ring true to you?
00:23:31
I don't know, you know, if you would be resistant to using all the words that I'm using to describe it, but it sounds like that.
00:23:38
Yeah.
00:23:39
The brand has benefited from this organic word of mouth growth since its inception.
00:23:49
And I think a big part of that is that it's novel.
00:23:52
You know, the combination of honey and chili peppers, honey infused with chili peppers is a novel thing.
00:23:58
Again, it's these two of nature's most wonderful ingredients that everybody's had separately, but most people have never experienced together.
00:24:08
So this idea that this is this novel thing that's so simple that everybody, you know, can taste and react to and share became like a thing that, you know, I think there are a lot of brands, a lot of products that people love.
00:24:24
But sometimes for whatever reason, people don't actually talk about them or like to share them with their friends.
00:24:32
In our case, we were very lucky to be this product that both people loved, but also they like talking about it and being the person to share it with their friends and family and community.
00:24:44
Oh, hey, have you tried this?
00:24:46
Never tried it before?
00:24:47
You got to taste it.
00:24:48
You got to try it on this, you got to try it on that.
00:24:50
You're right.
00:24:50
There are a lot of products that people love, but they don't necessarily talk about it.
00:24:54
And if I try and the only reason I'm doing this is to see if there's lessons for other people who want to start, you know, but like what is new, what I hear you saying also, it's not just the brand love that is part of it, but it's something that people want to talk about.
00:25:08
And in your case, if I put more words on what you're saying, it sounds like it's the innovation.
00:25:14
It's the spark.
00:25:15
It's the creativity that makes it kind of newsworthy, newsworthy, not like New York Times newsworthy, but friend to friend newsworthy.
00:25:25
And it was something about that creativity that mattered.
00:25:30
Yeah.
00:25:30
And I think, you know, home cooks and chefs alike, both were looking for the next great pairing for the product.
00:25:41
So it became this quest that, you know, this adventure for home cooks and chefs to find the next great thing to put it on and share that with their friends and their community.
00:25:50
So we created this tool for cooks.
00:25:54
And then, you know, something that I viewed as really just a pizza condiment, once it got into the hands of people who were far more talented and creative, they took it to all these different, you know, corners of the culinary world.
00:26:06
Interesting.
00:26:07
That's fascinating.
00:26:08
That's really, really interesting.
00:26:10
I can't wait to try it on ice cream.
00:26:11
I mean, that.
00:26:13
Yeah.
00:26:14
I think it's awesome too.
00:26:16
Butter pecan, vanilla.
00:26:18
That's incredible.
00:26:19
I love the point that Barbara's making, Mike, though, because, you know, as you guys were talking, I was picturing myself and the mental exercise of sharing the story, like telling the story about what you just talked about to friends and having the realization that they would say, man, that's really interesting.
00:26:39
Tell us more.
00:26:40
You know what I mean?
00:26:41
As opposed to, I can't say that about a lot of brands.
00:26:43
It's like, so I definitely see that that DNA is sort of built into this really interesting, authentic and very, very fun sort of conversation to have really.
00:26:55
It starts from the brand DNA, which is spicy and hot, which you don't usually put together.
00:27:01
I mean, spicy, hot and sweet.
00:27:04
You don't usually put together like that.
00:27:06
That's right.
00:27:07
In fact, I can't even say it.
00:27:09
That's right.
00:27:10
And Mike, is this hard to do?
00:27:11
Is this like some is this like because I mean, can anyone just say I'm going to put chili peppers and something sweet together?
00:27:17
Or have you told me how long it took to make this recipe?
00:27:20
Yeah.
00:27:20
So is there is there there's a motion.
00:27:23
Remember, America's right infusion.
00:27:25
But infusion could mean who knows what?
00:27:27
I'm not a food scientist.
00:27:28
But yeah, I can't protect it.
00:27:31
Yes.
00:27:32
Yeah, I can't get into all of the details of the production.
00:27:36
But I can say that, you know, on the surface, something that appears to be fairly simple, you know, it's honey and chili peppers, ingredients, everybody knows.
00:27:46
But but the actual infusion process is a lot more complicated than meets the eye.
00:27:51
It's like a good wine.
00:27:52
Yes, yes, yes.
00:27:54
You know, you've been stuck on grapes, you're not going to make a good wine.
00:27:58
Yes, yes.
00:27:59
Yeah.
00:27:59
And and, you know.
00:28:01
Secret formula.
00:28:03
I think, you know, it's it's it's it's very hard to patent a a recipe in the food world.
00:28:10
It's not something that you can commonly patent.
00:28:12
So really, what you're doing is you're building a brand, you know, and you're making a quality product and being consistent in your quality and really building a brand that that people know and love and want to continue to support.
00:28:26
And that's that's the moat.
00:28:28
I mean, it's, you know, we were the original brand in the category.
00:28:32
We created this this new category.
00:28:35
And, you know, there's lots of other brands in the space now and lots of private label.
00:28:40
In the space.
00:28:41
And but we welcome all that because that really just validates what we're doing.
00:28:46
It validates the category, which were the original category.
00:28:49
And then you kind of look for the best.
00:28:50
The original.
00:28:51
Yeah.
00:28:51
And, you know, they can't touch Mike.
00:28:54
You know, they could try.
00:28:57
But they can't build up the community.
00:29:00
And going back to what we were talking about, a part of this is this brand love this cult, this idea that it's, you know, all his friends in the pizza world, all around the world that the food service part of our business is really important because it's both a big revenue driver for us, but also it's this huge marketing engine for the brand.
00:29:20
And that's not something that can be replicated very easily.
00:29:24
You know, that's years and years of work.
00:29:26
It's thousands of miles traveled.
00:29:28
It's visits to restaurants in every corner of the country and establishing relationships, not just with the owners of those restaurants, but the line cooks and everyone on down to the dishwashers and learning all of their names and making sure that they know that they're appreciated and building that community that way is what we've done.
00:29:50
And we have an incredible food service team that has logged a lot of miles.
00:29:55
I mean, that's a whole different distribution channel, you know, and building those relationships.
00:29:59
That's a huge moat.
00:30:01
Well, Mike Kurtz, end of time.
00:30:03
Thank you so much for being with us.
00:30:05
Our guest today was Mike Kurtz, the founder of Mike's Hot Honey.
00:30:09
And if people want to buy this product or see where it is or learn more about your story, where can they go?
00:30:15
Well, you can find us online at Mike'sHotHoney.com.
00:30:18
You can buy our products there or on Amazon or in the honey aisle of your local supermarket.
00:30:24
And that's right.
00:30:25
Look out for the Garrett Mike's Hot Honey popcorn.
00:30:27
It should be hitting shelves very, very soon.
00:30:30
Supermarket review.
00:30:31
That's right.
00:30:31
You heard it here first.
00:30:32
That's right.
00:30:33
Yes.
00:30:34
This is awesome.
00:30:35
Thank you so much.
00:30:37
And that's all we have time for today.
00:30:39
We'd like to thank our producer, Jacob Grodnick.
00:30:41
Thank you all for listening.
00:30:43
We'll be back soon.
00:30:44
Till then, this has been Marketing Matters on the Wharton Podcast Network.
00:30:48
I'm Barbara Kahn, here with America's Read.
