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Barbara Kahn: Hello and welcome. You're
listening to Marketing Matters
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on Wharton Podcast Network, our
weekly podcast where we analyze
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the latest in advertising,
marketing, customer behavior and
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new product launches. I'm
Barbara Kahn, the Patty and Jay H.
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Baker Professor of Marketing,
and I'm joined by my co-host,
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Americus Reed, the Whitney M.
Young Junior Professor of
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Marketing and the Brand Identity
Theorist. Hello, Americus.
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Americus Reed: Hi, Barbara. So you know, my
middle name is current events.
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And -- that's what they call me.
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I'm just saying,
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- That’s a middle name.
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- Hey, you know, I just -- I didn't
make this up. This is what the
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people said. So you know, the 24
hour news cycle is, you know,
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crazy and very important. And
for us in marketing, we have to
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stay on top of, like, what's
happening on a daily basis. And
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so what have we got today to
sort of jump in and sort of
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understand, in real time,
Barbara, what's going on out
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there in terms of the marketing
world, and things that we should
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be very much aware of as
marketing professors at the
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Wharton School?
- Yeah,
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what's interesting is what's
brand new news in marketing is
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probably not the big headlines
in the New York Times, but we
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still consider it really
important. And we have with us
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the Senior Reporter at Marketing
Dive, our guest, Chris Kelly,
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Hello, Chris. Welcome to our podcast.
Chris Kelly: Thanks for having me.
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and
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- And Chris, can I just say your look
is fire, man. I love glasses.
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Dude. You're like the coolest
guest ever. I'm just like,
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what's he going to say? I'm just,
like, totally like, you
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know, on every word.
- Americus, you're not cool anymore.
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- I'm not cool anymore. I've been
replaced.
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- There's room for all,
all of us to be cool.
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- I think you need glasses and
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maybe you need your beard back, I don't know.
- Yeah, I need to up my game, Barbara
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- Not that other
beard, I hate that. - I know you
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didn't like it and it's gone,
but I wish I could do what Chris
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is doing. He's got this -- it's
amazing. I mean, this guy looks
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like -- I just want to hear
everything he has to say about
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the news.
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- Yeah. So Chris, before we
start talking about your
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stories, let's talk a little
bit, in case people don't know
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what Marketing Dive is. Just, I
mean, we never really talked
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about this before. But who is
your audience for Marketing
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Dive? Do you write for the
industry? Do you write for -- like,
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who is the -- I know you do a deep
dive into marketing stories, and
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you have a particular beat that
you might look at too, but I'm
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just curious, who reads
Marketing Dive?
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- Yeah, so, you know, Marketing
Dive is a digital B to B pub. So
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our audience, ideally, is, you
know, the CMOs and the
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leadership at major, you know,
Fortune 500s, and major
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B to C brands, and all the
ecosystem around them. So the
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agencies, the ad tech, you know,
anyone of -- and, you know,
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education. Anyone kind of
interested in this space, you
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know, from inside the
industry, not really a, you
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know, consumer side.
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- But the things you talk about,
consumers are interested. So
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it's kind of like a professional
look at what end users end up
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seeing. And today, we were going
to talk about some of your most
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recent articles. And just to
that point, what you kind of
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write about is why these
campaigns are going, the
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marketing strategy behind the
campaign, and then what the end
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user will see is just the
commercial, or they'll see
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whatever they see, 30 seconds or
different parts of the campaign.
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But you kind of get behind the
scenes and talk a little bit
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about the why behind these
different campaigns. And so
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you've talked -- you've written
a bunch of stories in recent
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days on really big brands, and
there's two that I really want
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to look into. In case we don't
have time to do all of them, I
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want to start with my favorite.
And my very, very favorite one
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is the Sprite one with Jalen
Hurts that you wrote about,
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because we're from Philly, and it is
football season. And Americus, you
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might have seen that Jalen Hurts
was only voted, even though he
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won the Super Bowl, the ninth
best quarterback. Did you
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see that? - I didn't see that. I
would have been raging in the
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streets, Barbara. This is
insane.
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- It’s like, who do they think
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won that Super Bowl? Like, it's
just amazing. He was on some
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list of best Super Bowls. He was
only number nine, and
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Philadelphians are crazy mad
about it. - They're going to hear
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from us. - It's interesting to
take a person like Jalen Hurts
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and have him be the spokesperson
for Sprite. And, you know,
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I don't know how much you've
covered the soft drink industry,
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but I assume you have, Chris.
That's really seen a lot of
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movement. I mean, Pepsi used to
be number two. It's like number
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four now. I think Coke is
number one, Dr. Pepper is number
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two, then Sprite, I think, is
number three, and then Pepsi is
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number four, something like
that. And so this campaign, it's
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not small. Why don't you
tell us a little bit about why
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you wrote this story, and the
background, and everything you
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know about the sprite Jalen
Hurts story.
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- For sure. Yeah, so you're right.
You know, there is a lot of
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motion and movement in that
space. Sprite did become number
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three, you know, carbonated soft
drink, I think, in the US this
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year. After last year, Dr. Pepper
moved up. So Pepsi keeps falling.
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Obviously, Sprite being a Coke
brand. But, you know, has its
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own identity. And a big part of
that identity is this Obey Your
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Thirst campaign that we --
that, Americus, we remember
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from the '90s as a major part of their
their marketing that they
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brought back last year. They
kind of did a modern take on the
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classic ads that had Grant Hill
in them. Last year, they brought
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it back with Sha'carri Richardson,
the sprinter, and also Anthony
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Edwards, the basketball star.
And, yeah, you
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know, extending it into
football now. They haven't done
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as much. It's been mostly, you
know, basketball, hip hop
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culture, but, yeah, moving
into football and kind of -- and
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getting someone, like you said,
Barbara, a top quarterback in the
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league, a known personality, and
making the face of it,
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and having some fun kind of with
his persona and what he deals
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with as a top quarterback.
- So
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Americus, have you seen this ad?
- I have not seen it. Describe
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it to us. - Yeah, or
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Chris, you can. I'll just tell
you what I see as an end user,
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and then you can say what the B
to B marketing is. What's interesting
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about Jalen Hurts, if you know
him and you follow Philly
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football, but why wouldn't you?
He's a Super Bowl MVP, in my
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opinion. - Heard that. - However, he
doesn't talk much. So he gets
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asked a whole lot of questions,
kind of dumb questions, and
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that's what they're playing on
in this commercial and linking
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it to the persona of Sprite in
some way. Chris, is that
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like a fair analysis?
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- Yeah, no, you got it. I think,
you know, it's funny, it's
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called Success Hurts. So they
had a little play on words
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there. But it's a reporter named
Thurston A. Sip hounds Jalen at
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every turn, from the press
conference to the restaurant to
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the red carpet to even his
tailor. He's got stupid
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questions, like, you know, "Do
you have more ice in your veins
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or ice in your chains?" And Hurts basically
is stoic and goes like, "Who is
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this guy? Like, can we get rid of this guy?"
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And, you know, and it
builds up to that kind of
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classic Obey Your Thirst line
of, you know, if you want to let
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your game do the talking, say
less. If you want a refreshing
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drink, drink Sprite. And so that's -- you
know, I think Jalen as being the
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poster boy of, you know,
letting the field speak for it,
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and not necessarily the persona,
is a lot of fun. And this really
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does contrast kind of with, you
know, who they -- for the last
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year, Sprite has made Anthony
Edwards the star, and he's
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basically the 180. And, you know,
I spoke with executives of
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Sprite that basically described
them as yin and yang
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of kind of sports personalities.
If you follow basketball, you
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know, or you know the culture
around that, A is a big
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personality, versus
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Jalen. - Yes, that's amazing. - It's
kind
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of interesting if you think, you
know, like, if you look at this,
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again, like, does this campaign
make sense? I don't know if it
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does or not. I love Jalen Hurts.
So for me, it's celebrity
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endorsement, and I kind of like
the whole thing. It really
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appeals to me. But in
this -- I mean, in this field
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of soft drinks, it's changed so
much. Like, you look at Lacroix. I
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mean, they're now serving
Lacroix on American Airlines.
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It's kind of amazing to me. It's
one of your choices. So it used
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to be Coke and Pepsi and maybe
Dr. Pepper, and now Lacroix is there,
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and Poppi, and all these
functional drinks, and moving
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away from colas. And like I
said, number two is Dr. Pepper,
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number three is Sprite, not
Pepsi. So you're moving into
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flavor, you're moving into
functional. Is this idea -- do you
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think this way of branding
Sprite makes sense to link it to
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a celebrity like this?
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- Yeah, I think they -- you know,
part of their their effort is
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really, like, we hear from all
the brands is, you know, moving
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at the speed of culture. And
really, it's not just Jalen
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Hurts holding up the bottle
of Sprite and saying, "Drink it."
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It's showing him in all the ways
that he's existing as an
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athlete, as a celebrity,
as a Black man. Like, the kind of
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different things he's dealing
with. People asking stupid
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questions and expecting
different things. And so
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they really have made -- and
sprite has made a big push
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around that. You know,
culturally, a lot of
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the -- you know, they've worked
with East Side Golf and and
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these other organizations
that speaks to different
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audiences, more diverse
audiences. And so they've done a
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big thing on that. But like you
said, it is the soft drink
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space, the beverage space has
really mixed it up with the
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emergence of, you know, the
functional beverages. And, you
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know, there's even kind of
competition on their block. You
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know, Pepsi has Starry, which
they launched a couple years
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ago. Now, a week ago we covered
Starry. Basically, if it hits 100
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degrees, they're giving away
free drinks. And and Sprite has
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made the temperature and the
refreshing chill a big part of
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it. And you know,
Sprite -- you know, the executive I
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spoke to, A.P. Chaney, was not --
did not seem pressed. She said,
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"The competitors can do whatever
they want." They're feeling
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pretty confident at Sprite. But I
think, yeah, really having a
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strong point of view as people
are reaching for different
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types.
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- Yeah, I think it's super -- very
intriguing, to Barbara's point,
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Chris, this idea of the Sprite
brand is just so powerful. I
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mean, basically -- right, Barbara?
It owns basically the lemon, the
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clear lemon --
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- Pepsi has tried
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with all different stories, but it doesn't
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ever seem to make a dent. And
even 7 Up, which I used to
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think was a great brand, whoever
drink -- I never -- you don't see
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7 Up anywhere.,
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- You don’t see that
on the menus.
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- Seven down, yeah. You know
what, Chris, talk about this,
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though, because something
interesting, and Barbara
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weigh in on this as well, and
that's the idea that, okay,
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well, you know, we picked the
winner, and we feel like we -- this
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is Sprite talking. You
corroborate if this is at all
00:10:46
what the C-suite people said.
But we picked the winner. We've
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got a really nice fit with a
persona that is quiet. Obey Your
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Thirst, Do the Work, all that
kind of stuff. I'm curious as to
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the idea of, well, we know it's
going to help Sprite in
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Philadelphia, because we love
Jalen Hurts, and we love the
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tush push, and we love, you
know, all that stuff. But what's
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the thought process of beyond
the geography? In other words --
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- He is a Super Bowl winner.
- He's a Super Bowl winner, but there --
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you know, I mean, I don't know,
there's a group of consumers out
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there that, you know, in Kansas
City, let's say, for example,
00:11:21
who might say, "You know
what?" Maybe they don't have a
00:11:25
negative reaction, but they have
kind of a non reaction. And I'm
00:11:28
wondering the logic behind, you
know, what is the thought
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process of the expectation
of, to Barbara's point, how much
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is -- how far is this going to
reach? And, like, what --
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is it a thing where it's
like, we're just kind of doing
00:11:40
the cool thing because Jalen's hot?
- He is good looking, there is that.
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- He's a fantastic,
fantastic guy. What are your
00:11:47
thoughts on this, Chris, as a
long term, you know, expectation
00:11:50
of the strategy for the folks
who who came up with this idea?
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- Yeah, I think part of that -- you
know, I think that's always a
00:11:57
concern. You know, these players
that, I'm sure they do their
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Q ratings, and see who
has, you know, real positives,
00:12:03
real negatives. And I feel like
with the athletes that
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they've chosen, they're really
picking ones that fit the brand,
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and we always hear about that, of
finding the right fits and,
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you know, finding someone who
speaks to their brand values and
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their slogans and all that. I
think they have that in Jalen.
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And, you know, Barbara, I'm
sure -- I hope he plays the rest
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of his career for your sake in
green and white, but I think --
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and which also matches nicely
with the Sprite.
00:12:28
- Oh, I forgot about that.
That's good, yeah.
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- But I think they're
looking at these players as
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kind of celebrities, you
know, in their own sphere,
00:12:41
regardless of the team, and kind
of looking for these cultural
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figures who kind of go beyond
sports.
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- You know, like talking about
celebrity, I wasn't going to do
00:12:49
this next one but I just
can't wait to do Dude Wipes.
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Maybe, given what you just said,
we should do McDonald's, because
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I mean, that's
another really big industry. But
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the reason that I thought it was
interesting is the choice of
00:13:01
celebrities that they chose for
that. So do you want to talk a
00:13:04
little bit about that campaign?
- Sure.
00:13:07
Yeah, no, so I kind of did a
bigger dive into this area
00:13:11
of QSR and fast food right now
is this kind of reignited
00:13:15
chicken war, as we saw a few
years ago, with the chicken
00:13:17
sandwiches that everyone
was going crazy for and a lot of
00:13:20
competition. You know, in this,
McDonald's did bring back
00:13:24
the Snack Wraps, which was a fan
favorite, had been off the menu
00:13:26
for a few years. You know, but
as they announced it, other
00:13:29
brands trying to get in on it.
You know, Popeyes trying to beat
00:13:32
them to market. Taco Bell
has made chicken a big part of
00:13:35
their push. And, yeah,
you know, the campaign -- you
00:13:39
know, some of the campaign they
did here with the -- McDonald's
00:13:42
did with the Snack Wrap, made up
a new character named Unc, who's
00:13:48
played by Hassan Johnson from
The Wire, as, you know,
00:13:52
the older guy, the uncle,
who knows this stuff and has to
00:13:55
educate the young ones about the
Snack Wrap that we used to get
00:13:58
on the dollar menu and gives the
co-sign. And so they kind
00:14:02
of went a different way, and
kind of made a new brand
00:14:04
character, instead of just, you
know, someone, -- an actor who's
00:14:08
recognizable, but not as a --
he's an ad guy, he's not a
00:14:11
brand name
- Yeah,
00:14:13
but it's definitely targeting
the African American consumer
00:14:16
market in this, like with that
ad. Or, I mean, that's at least
00:14:19
what you said in your article.
So like bringing in The Wire
00:14:23
actor, that's like a really
different kind of way of
00:14:28
promoting a product, unlike --
well, to Americus's point, I
00:14:31
think Jalen Hurts is America's
sweetheart
00:14:33
You know, it’s like Super Bowl is a broad
00:14:38
audience where this seems like
it is a little bit more
00:14:41
targeted.
00:14:42
- For sure. And they did
this with Translation, which
00:14:45
just signed on as their African
American agency of record. You
00:14:50
know, they've done work with
them before. Or on the Big Mac,
00:14:53
they did the now iconic "I'm
Loving It" jingle, which was
00:14:58
written by Timberlake and Pusha
T. I've got to get my music knowledge
00:15:02
in there. - Nice, nice. Audiophile,
very nice. - So they -- yeah, I
00:15:07
think they are looking,
you know, specifically in this.
00:15:10
You know, they did a big push
around the culture of, you
00:15:13
know, the Snack Wrap itself and
what fans have been asking for
00:15:16
on Twitter for years. But
yeah, this TV push is
00:15:20
definitely more targeted around
consumer groups.
00:15:24
- And the other thing that's
funny, you know, it's
00:15:25
McDonald's. You think of that as
a hamburger company, but this is
00:15:28
all about chicken. And I
guess it's competing, you know,
00:15:32
with the chicken retailers of
quick service restaurants and
00:15:35
things. How well does McDonald's
do in that segment?
00:15:39
- Good question, yeah. - Yeah, I think they have
made it a big part. I think this
00:15:43
is definitely what I do with my
colleagues at Restaurant Dive. I
00:15:46
think, you know, the chicken
price versus beef price. I think
00:15:50
there's a big push
restaurant wide to kind of get
00:15:53
into more on the chicken side.
But it has been just, it's
00:15:58
really what consumers want. We
saw, like, with the chicken
00:16:00
sandwiches, you know, it's a
really competitive space with
00:16:04
your -- you know, but yeah, the
fact that McDonald's, I mean, I
00:16:08
think Taco Bell doing nuggets
and chicken strips and stuff
00:16:12
is even --
- Yeah, it's kind of funny.
00:16:16
- So, I mean, it has gotten
competitive. And then, you
00:16:18
know, your traditional ones,
like Popeyes and KFC, also
00:16:22
reasserting that this is their
domain, for sure.
00:16:24
- Gotcha. And let's not -- I'm
sorry, I grew up in Atlanta,
00:16:27
Chris, and so I have to put in
Chick Fil A, because Chick Fil
00:16:32
A -- by the way, you just got to
Google some of their -- some of the
00:16:36
economic analysis around the
average revenues of their
00:16:39
stores. And they're closed on
Sunday, so they give up 52 sales
00:16:44
days per year, and they're doing
pretty well, right? - Yeah,
00:16:49
and also a really strong brand
voice. I mean, they've got -- they
00:16:52
still have the Eat More Chicken
cows. They still
00:16:56
have those. Even as -- and
we've seen, you know, a lot of
00:16:59
this chicken war stuff has been
the kind of sparring. You know,
00:17:02
Popeyes did a diss track, and
they're trying to, you know,
00:17:05
have some fun at each other's
expense. Comig for the big dog of
00:17:08
McDonald's. But, you know,
other brands have tried that.
00:17:11
You know, they've tried ads
around and campaigns of, we're
00:17:14
open on Sundays. - Oh,
interesting. - Because, you know,
00:17:18
people -- I think Chick Fil A has
a really strong brand loyalty.
00:17:21
And I think they've -- yeah, like
you said, even giving up
00:17:23
those days, they still, you
know, set -- year over year sales is
00:17:27
always very, pretty
00:17:27
strong. - Very, very cool. Yeah,
and the other thing that's
00:17:30
interesting, Barbara, I just
have to -- can I tell you, I love
00:17:34
this. It's serendipitous,
because I used Dude Wipes, like,
00:17:38
an hour ago. So
we're going to get to my --
00:17:42
Chris, we're going to get to my
skin regimen a little bit later
00:17:45
to Barbara. Real quick, Barbara
and Chris, like the idea of,
00:17:50
like, bringing in celebrity
influences. Give me the
00:17:52
high level risk analysis that
says, "Okay, we love Jalen Hurts.
00:17:57
Jalen Hurts is low risk because
he's a good guy, he's a family
00:17:59
man and so on and so forth
- He doesn't talk much either.
00:18:01
- He doesn't talk much. So talk us through
the risk profile analysis that
00:18:05
says, "We're going to bring in an
AD, or maybe an Antonio Brown,
00:18:08
or, like, one of these sort of,
like, firecrackers." Talk
00:18:11
us through that. Like, how do
they manage that? How do they --
00:18:14
how did the folks, you know, sort
of deal with that? Is it all in
00:18:17
the contract? I mean, what do
they -- what's that process look
00:18:20
like? - Some of that's still in
the black box. To me, I think
00:18:22
they definitely -- you know,
sometimes I think this with
00:18:25
Jalen will be a good, their first
foray. This is the first NFL
00:18:29
player they've done a deal with.
So I think it's
00:18:31
probably a low risk, maybe high
reward for them. They've done
00:18:34
the basketball space a lot, so
they maybe know what to expect.
00:18:38
You know, it's all
out there. So it seems that
00:18:42
maybe. You know, where it's
like, well, people know what
00:18:45
they're getting, you know? You
already know how you feel. So
00:18:48
they're not worried about
any skeletons or anything.
00:18:50
He's out there. And, you know, they've done other ads. They
00:18:53
had done some ads, you know,
speaking of kind of a framing
00:18:56
around, you know, an Unc. They did some ads with Kevin
00:19:01
Garnett and they let them -- you
know, when I spoke to them about
00:19:05
that previously, you know, they
let them kind of ad lib a
00:19:08
little bit and just make it
actually seem like it was -- it's
00:19:10
not two guys just, once again,
holding up the Sprite
00:19:13
bottle. So I think that -- yeah, I
think it is a risk
00:19:16
analysis, for sure.
00:19:17
- All right, Americus,
you
00:19:20
ready? Let's go.
- Oh, I'm so excited. Here's the thing, Chris, and
00:19:23
help us unpack this, because
I am on record, Barbara, on
00:19:27
Twitter years ago saying, "This is
the dumbest idea in the world."
00:19:32
The notion of a sort of slack
jawed cretin of a dude, the dude
00:19:38
kind, showing up with wet wipes
is never going to work. Barbara
00:19:42
Kahn, I was wrong. I was totally
wrong. So help us unpack the
00:19:47
Dude Wipe phenomenon, Chris.
00:19:49
- Yeah, Chris. So this is a wet
wipe, and it's targeted -- we're
00:19:54
talking about targeting now. It's
targeting dudes, right? - Sure.
00:19:59
Yeah. Yeah, no, I've had some --
I'm with you on their branding
00:20:03
and the kind of -- you know, the
dude of it all. But they haven't
00:20:07
really -- they've had some fun
campaigns. And I wrote up this
00:20:11
one recently on the
evolution of wiping. It's a 30 second
00:20:14
spot. You know, it's an
edutainment. They take it to a
00:20:18
museum, they show you the
history, maybe, what, you
00:20:22
know, cavemen were doing. - Or
not doing. - Or not doing. Maybe
00:20:26
using a tree or a pine cone. And
then they put toilet paper in
00:20:29
that same, under glass, can you
believe people used to do this?
00:20:33
And then they take --
their way that they
00:20:36
approached this, they took, of
course, a mission to Uranus, and
00:20:39
they demonstrate the future of
wiping, which is the Dude Wipe.
00:20:42
And, yeah, I think a lot of
people, from their name or
00:20:45
their business model, you know,
they've passed -- you know, I
00:20:50
was talking to their CMO, and
they recently passed Cottonelle
00:20:53
in dollar share of omnichannel
sales. They see more growth in the
00:20:57
future. They're doing kind of
product extensions, different
00:21:01
lines. So there does seem to be
something here. But yes,
00:21:04
they do have a lot of fun with
the idea of wiping and --
00:21:08
- I can't imagine marketing this any
other way. Here's a situation
00:21:11
where, if you're going to go
into this category, and you
00:21:14
can't do it with humor, I just
can't imagine how it's going to
00:21:17
work.
00:21:17
- And you can't do it with the
bears in the woods, you know? I
00:21:20
mean, there's, like, very
recognizable things. I mean, the
00:21:22
Charmin has nailed that down,
and they have that --
00:21:24
- You can't do bears in the woods.
- And they've had -- Dude Wipes spoke about
00:21:28
this. They had, you know, what
they can do as they move into
00:21:33
traditional linear TV, what they
can actually say. They had -- if
00:21:37
Uranus didn't work, they said
they were going to go on mission
00:21:39
to the moon. They have to
kind of think through how they
00:21:42
can actually, you know, do this.
And getting back to football,
00:21:44
they just recently -- this
happened after my piece
00:21:47
published, but they became a
sponsor of the Cleveland Browns,
00:21:50
who are doing an all brown
uniform and helmet.
00:21:53
- Oh, my god, that's a weird
sponsorship for Dude Wipes.
00:21:57
- I mean, they really have looked
for these opportunities. - They really go
00:22:01
in a lot of different
directions. - I mean, it goes the
00:22:05
one direction you think. And
they really -- they
00:22:08
know what they are, and they aren't
afraid of it, and it seems to be
00:22:11
working. And, you know, I was at
a -- last weekend or two weeks ago,
00:22:15
I was at a concert for my other
work I do with the Washington Post, and
00:22:20
they had -- outside the men's
rooms, they had big free samples
00:22:23
of Dude Wipes. And people were
taking handfuls all
00:22:26
weekend at, you know, the festival.
00:22:29
The product is the product.
00:22:31
- That's amazing. I love the
point, sorry to interrupt
00:22:33
Barbara, the brand identity
point. I just want to touch on
00:22:35
this really quickly and get your
reaction to this, Chris and
00:22:38
Barbara, because part of what
the hypothesis was, why Americus
00:22:41
was so wrong when he predicted
that this is not going to take
00:22:44
off and get any sort of
traction, was the idea that
00:22:47
there's latent demand for men to
use these products. But when
00:22:51
they go in there and they just
don't want to pick up the pink
00:22:54
thing or the baby blue thing or
the thing that's marketed for
00:22:57
babies, and it was -- it's the
opportunity to say it's out
00:23:00
there, but give them a
permission structure to level up
00:23:05
their wiping evolution,
and this is what happens. I
00:23:09
mean, is there any credibility
to that, or is that just post
00:23:12
hoc, you know,
00:23:13
delusional rationalization? - No, I think that makes
a lot of sense. I actually do
00:23:16
think that makes a lot of sense. What do you think?
- What are your thoughts,
00:23:17
Chris? - I think that's exactly
what they did. I think they
00:23:20
looked at a product. You know,
these were three guys. They were
00:23:23
college roommates, I believe is
their origin story. And they
00:23:27
were buying, you know, big
packets of baby wipes at Sam's
00:23:30
Club. And they were like,
"There's got to --" you know, but
00:23:34
they were baby wipes. And
there's -- like, there's got to be
00:23:36
a market here. We're the market.
Just really regular guys and to
00:23:40
not -- yeah, to move away for
someone -- it's kind of the
00:23:42
reverse, you know, the pink tax
of -- the idea that the
00:23:46
women's product is separate. I
mean, of kind of going back and
00:23:50
back filling the market, and
changing who's doing the
00:23:52
shopping and, you know,
identifying they want to -- there
00:23:56
have been some -- you kind of see
some kind of look alike products
00:23:59
and getting in this kind of dude
bro space, but they do -- they're
00:24:03
not -- I was a little dubious as
well, but they do -- there's
00:24:07
a big wink on a lot of this stuff.
- That's interesting. - They did
00:24:09
definitely open it up to the
different consumer.
00:24:12
- So we only have a few minutes
left, and let me end with your
00:24:15
last story on JCPenney. But
before we go to that -- not your
00:24:19
last story, you write tons of
stories, but the last one that
00:24:21
we were going to cover. The
three that we discussed before
00:24:25
kind of break out of the cover
with some clever campaign. You
00:24:29
know, like Jalen Hurts is
definitely getting your
00:24:31
attention. Dude Wipes will get
your attention. You know, the
00:24:34
whole chicken wars thing is --
they've been pushing so much
00:24:37
hype about all of that. But now
you've got JCPenney's, which is
00:24:41
like, I just sigh when I think
of JCPenney's. You know, what
00:24:44
are they going to do now? And in
general, this is a category
00:24:48
that's in really tough shape.
Like, the tariffs have hurt it.
00:24:52
The department stores are not
doing well. The apparel market
00:24:56
is really being hit from the low
end, Temu and Shein, and all those
00:25:00
kinds of brands. It's just a
really tough place. And so JC
00:25:05
Penney's is trying to get back
into a very critical market, or
00:25:09
very critical time for
department stores, is back to
00:25:12
school, and that's when people
start shopping again in their
00:25:17
category. It's really an
important time. And so I mean,
00:25:20
Christmas is important also, but
back to school has got to be the
00:25:23
second biggest season for them.
And this is a time to come up
00:25:28
with some kind of campaign that
gets above the clutter. Do you
00:25:32
think that they pulled that off
with this campaign? What
00:25:36
do you think about the JC
Penney's campaign?
00:25:39
- Yeah, I would definitely say
that this one, which they're
00:25:42
calling Back To It, instead of
just back to school, kind of
00:25:44
expanding the idea of
everybody's going back shopping
00:25:47
for school shopping, and mom's
going to get something, Dad's going to
00:25:50
get something, shopping for kids
too. You want to have a nice
00:25:52
fall look, or whatever it is.
This is an extension. It's not
00:25:56
as flashy as the other ones.
It's got a fun construct they've
00:26:00
been using this year. This, yes,
JCPenney, which kind of --
00:26:04
it recognizes the sigh.
It recognizes the problems
00:26:07
they've had in this category and
as a brand. And, you know,
00:26:10
when they rolled this out, they
did a lot of, like, here's this
00:26:13
designer look for $40. We have
the receipts. And this idea
00:26:16
that, yes, it is JCPenny. And
the whole idea of these ads is,
00:26:21
you didn't just get a $200
outfit. You got the jealous look
00:26:25
at the other -- of the other moms
at drop off, all for $200. So
00:26:29
it's these, like, what you're
also getting with that value.
00:26:31
So, like, a very monetary value,
but then also, like, a personal,
00:26:35
you know, value value. - It's
interesting.
00:26:37
- Yeah, yeah. And the question is,
is it going to pass? Like, are
00:26:41
people going to believe? They're
going for style at a good price,
00:26:45
but it is JCPenny. I mean, they
admit, yes, it's JCPenney. You
00:26:50
know, there's a credibility
issue here too. I mean, I
00:26:52
don't know. maybe it'll work,
maybe not.
00:26:54
- Barbara. Barbara, what is your
00:26:57
conceptualization of the JC
Penney brand as it sits?
00:27:01
- I mean, I think they've gone
through a lot of misses, and
00:27:05
it's a category that's tough to
start with. Department stores
00:27:08
are really tough. And if they
don't get the exact right
00:27:11
positioning, you know, people
are going to buy online. They're
00:27:15
going to buy from these other
brands that are cheaper. Maybe
00:27:17
they'll go into more style. JC
Penney's always been kind of
00:27:21
stuck in the middle, you know? I
just wonder. I just
00:27:25
think it's tough. And I don't
know how clever the campaign is.
00:27:29
- Also to your point,
Barbara, and jump in on this,
00:27:32
Chris, as well. It's also -- I love
this line of logic that
00:27:35
you're putting out there,
Barbara, because it begs the
00:27:37
question of, you know, how -- do we
start over? Do we say we're
00:27:41
going to throw out the JCPenney
name, and just like, you know,
00:27:45
redo the entire slate?
Or do we -- you know, we try
00:27:49
to modernize? Do we wait for
older consumers to die so that
00:27:54
younger consumers --
- Well, it's targeting young people
too, and it's trying to make them,
00:27:57
like he said, back to it, yes,
JCPenny, believe me, this is JC
00:28:02
Penney, and it's trying to come
out with, it's a cool look, but
00:28:05
it's JCPenny cool. I don't
know.
00:28:07
- Yeah, in my mind, to Barbara's
point, Chris, jump in on this,
00:28:11
it's like, yeah, I have a very
robust understanding of what I
00:28:15
think the JCPenney brand is,
based on my upbringing and how I
00:28:19
interacted with the brand. So
like changing Americus's mind
00:28:23
will be very different than
changing the 15 year old's mind
00:28:26
or creating a perception. Talk
about this, Chris.
00:28:28
- For sure, yeah, and I
think, yes. JCPenney, they brought
00:28:31
in -- you know, they also are --
they had some kind of structural
00:28:36
changes with the brand, but they
brought in early this year
00:28:39
Marisa Thalberg as a CMO. She
did some really great work. The
00:28:44
stuff that Taco Bell did a
decade ago that really ignited a
00:28:47
lot of this, like, cultural brand
of people wanting to buy a
00:28:50
sweatshirt with Taco Bell on it,
that was a lot of the stuff she
00:28:52
was doing there. She really
brought a new energy to
00:28:56
JCPenney. You know, this first
iteration they did, it helped
00:29:00
boost in store traffic. A lot of
their ad awareness metrics went
00:29:04
up. So they were seeing results.
They did -- and to speak of that
00:29:07
online, you know, it's obviously
getting people to go to a
00:29:10
department store versus their
couch on their phone. It is
00:29:13
different. But they've done a
lot of -- they've done these really
00:29:16
big deals campaigns, which is
very app based, mobile based,
00:29:20
tying up with Jimmy Kimmel and
stuff like that. So they are
00:29:23
trying to, like, not throw the
baby out with the bath water.
00:29:26
We've seen the rebrands that do
that, and everyone freaks
00:29:29
out. And I think they are
saying, "For the people who were
00:29:32
still about the brand, yes, it's
JCPenney. And then for the
00:29:35
people who aren't --" it's really
an inflection of, like, "Yeah,
00:29:38
it's JCPenney, it's good, but
you didn't think it was good,
00:29:41
but here we are." So I think
they're trying to have
00:29:44
it both ways. I think, so far,
it looks like it's there's some
00:29:47
equity here that
they're playing from.
00:29:50
- Well, we'll see how it does in
the big back to school campaign
00:29:54
season. Well, Chris, we're out
of time. Thank you so much for
00:29:57
joining us today. And if people
want to read these stories,
00:30:00
where can our listeners go to
keep up with you and your
00:30:02
coverage of these marketing
campaigns?
00:30:05
- Please follow along. Marketingdive.com.
Go ahead and subscribe
00:30:08
to our newsletters. We'll be in
your inbox every morning, and
00:30:11
not much more, and that's the
best way. - Okay, well,
00:30:16
thanks a lot for being here.
Well, that's all we have time
00:30:19
for today. So we'd like to thank
our producers, typically, Dionne
00:30:24
Simpkins and Marissa Renna, and
thank you all for listening
00:30:28
today. We'll be back next week.
Until then, this has been
00:30:31
Marketing Matters on the Wharton
Podcast Network. I'm Barbara
00:30:35
Kahn here with Americus Reed.
