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[Music]
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[Music]
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we're here today with Jonah Berger whart
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and marketing professor and author of
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the new book contagious why things catch
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on Jonah thanks so much for being here
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today thanks for having
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great um so first of all this book is
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all about what makes different products
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or ideas catch on so my first question
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is what do you think are the biggest
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misconceptions out there about why
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things go
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viral uh I think the easiest place to
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start would be cats so if you look
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online uh and people say oh why do
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things go viral uh people usually give
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one of two answers they say oh it's
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random it's luck just chance why things
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go viral or it's cats if you look on the
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web they're viral cat pictures so it
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must be cats that drive things to go
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viral um that's a great uh anecdote uh
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there are definitely some cat things
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that go popular but that really doesn't
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tell us anything about why most things
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go viral doesn't tell us why some cat
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videos are shared and others aren't uh
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and it doesn't tell us why things that
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have nothing to do with cats uh go viral
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uh it's like uh noticing that Bill Gates
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Bill Cosby and Bill Clinton all's names
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start with Bill and so deciding to name
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your child bill because that will make
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them famous um it's messing up
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correlation and causation uh and so what
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the book is all about is teasing apart
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sort of the luck and random stuff stuff
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with with science actually trying to
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understand what makes people talk about
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and share things right because it's not
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a can has viral yes so and now in the
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book you actually outline a framework of
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six principles for why things catch on
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using the acronym of steps which is
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steps with an extra P yes yeah exactly
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can you describe those for us and
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discuss how you develop them so the book
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talks about the six key steps uh to
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driving people to talk and share uh
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steps is an acronym to talk about the
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different research ideas we have in the
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book uh and they stand for social
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currency which is all about people
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talking about things uh to make
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themselves look good rather than bad
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triggers uh which is all about the idea
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of top of Mind tip of tongue we talk
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about things that are on the top of our
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our heads uh e is for emotion when we
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care we share uh the more we care about
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a piece of information or the more we're
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feeling uh physiologically aroused the
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more like we pass something on uh public
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when we can see other people doing
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something we're more like it imitate it
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practical value basically idea news you
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can use we share information to help
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others to make them better off and
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finally stories or how we share things
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that are often wrapped up in stories or
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narratives MH now of these principles
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and which do you think Which principle
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or principles do you think is most
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difficult for companies or individuals
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to kind of harness when they're trying
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to promote a product or an idea or just
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get something to catch on I think people
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often say well we have to do something
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crazy right guerilla marketing viral
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marketing it's about I don't know
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dressing up people in chicken suits and
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running down to the subway and handing
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out $100 bills and do something crazy
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that'll get attention um and that's
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really not the right answer so it is
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true that remarkable things get talked
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about and shared um but there's a lot of
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other drivers of sharing as well so one
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big thing we talk about is is triggers
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how cues in the environment remind us of
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related things and cause us to talk
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about them so if I said peanut butter
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and you might think of jelly or if I
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said cat you might think of dog and so
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peanut butter is basically a little
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advertisement for jelly it's not
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actually there but it reminds you of
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that related thing um and so cues in the
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environment can remind us of products
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and ideas and make us talk about them
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more and so I think companies often
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don't think about well what in the
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environment is going to remind consumers
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of my product or idea uh or similar you
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know emotion well I think companies
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recognize hey if we can get people to
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feel emotional we'll get them to talk
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and share I think most companies get
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stuck because they say well hold on our
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product isn't naturally emotional right
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or our product isn't naturally
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remarkable well we just can't do
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anything about it um and what the book
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is really about is is showing both
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companies and individuals um that anyone
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can craft contagious content it's not
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about you have to have the right product
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you have to think about what makes
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people talk about and share and then
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build that into your product or
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messaging any product can be remarkable
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any product can be emotional if you
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think about what makes people feel
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emotion or what makes them think
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something is remarkable and then build
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that into your product or idea and now
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there's actually a great example of this
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in the book that has to do with blenders
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so why don't you tell us about how the
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people at blendtech made blenders fit
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this this framework so I think that's a
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great example and you could say well you
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know new Apple products or hot cars or
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you know exciting uh Hollywood movies
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those are naturally remarkable products
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but who would talk about you know cement
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or toilet paper or a household appliance
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like a refrigerator or a blender there's
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nothing remarkable about a blender uh
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but there's a great example of a company
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blendtech who actually made a blender
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video that's gotten over 10 million
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views and the set of videos all about
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blenders has over 150 million views
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about the most boring product we can
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think of the most mundane thing in the
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world a blender uh and what they did is
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they have a series of videos called will
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it blend where basically they stick all
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types of different things in a blender
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and my favorite one for example they
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stick an iPhone in the blender they
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actually drop an iPhone in they close
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the top they press the button and you
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watch the iPhone get torn up by this
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really really strong blender it gets
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reduced to shreds right little shards of
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glass and uh and all the other things
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that make up an iPhone lots of smoke at
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the end of the day it's basically powder
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now you've never seen a blender tear an
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iPhone you've never imagined that a
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blender could do that to an iPhone yet
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you see it and it's pure remarkability
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right you see that you're so amazed you
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have to share that with someone else
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because it's so impressive and so people
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share these videos even though they're
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about a blender and so I think the point
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at the end of the day is anyone can
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craft contagious content right yes
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they're selling a blender yes a blender
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doesn't seem like a remarkable product
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but by finding the inner remarkability
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in their product they got people to talk
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and share yeah I mean I guess what
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fascinated me about it was that I think
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it was the marketing director who had
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been hired he realized that something
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that they were doing every day testing
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yeah so uh uh George Wright new
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marketing hire comes into the office he
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notices a pile of sawdust on the floor
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one of his first days at work and he
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says well what are we are we expanding
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the office why is there sawdust on the
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floor and his colleague goes no the CEO
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is doing what he does every day try to
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break blenders so the CEO would take 2x4
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pieces of wood he would take golf balls
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he would take big lighters he'd throw
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them in the blender and he'd see if the
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blender was tough enough to withstand
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the punishment he wanted to make a
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really strong blender and George saw
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this said this is a fantastic idea this
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is going to be a viral home run he took
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a $50 marketing budget not 50 million
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not 50,000 but literally $50 bought a
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white lab coat some of those goofy
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glasses you often see people wear when
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they chop wood or something and just
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filmed his CEO doing what the guy was
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already doing trying to break blenders
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with throwing things inside and they
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distributed to their mailing list they
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distributed to others and it just it
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caught on like wildfire people saw it
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and they had to pass it on and share it
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with their friends and so I think it's a
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great example of it doesn't take a huge
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marketing budget doesn't take a
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marketing genius though they are smart
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marketers to think about this what it
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takes is understanding the psychology
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behind social transmission what makes us
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talk about it and share things and then
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generating content we building in
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features of your product so you create
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that Viral user growth and to kind of go
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with that on the smaller budgets and
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also I guess to somewhat go back to when
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you mentioned cats yeah it seems like a
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lot of time at least on the internet
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that a lot of times it's user generated
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content that often manages to generate
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these giant page view numbers and the
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viral nature that many companies with
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much larger budgets and many more
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resources at their disposal would just
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die to have
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so I mean what do you think about that
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and what can companies learn from that
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you know so I think companies often
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think well it's about advertising right
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it's about creating a really slick
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message and putting it out there and it
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will be really persuasive and I think
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it's more about being open being
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authentic uh letting consumers create
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their own content um but also creating
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ads that build in an understanding of
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why people talk about and share things
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people don't want to share things that
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look like ads right they don't want to
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look like they're a walking
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advertisement for a company but they
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will share really engaging content even
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if that content happens to relate to a
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brand so a few years ago Burger King had
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a great example on the web the
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subservient chicken this website you
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could go you could type in whatever you
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wanted uh and this guy in a chicken suit
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would do whatever you typed in so do a
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backflip the guy in the chicken suit
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would do a backflip hit a home run he'd
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look like he's hitting a home run um but
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it wasn't heavily branded right it
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didn't say Burger King Burger King by
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Burger King all over the page the more
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you brand something the more it looks
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like an ad the less willing people are
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going to be to talk about and share it
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and so I think you need to design
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content that's like a Ian horse right
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it's there's an exterior to it that's
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really exciting or remarkable has social
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currency or practical value but inside
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you hide the brand or the benefit right
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will it blend is a great example it's
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not a highly branded piece of content
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right people are watching it because
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they love to see this blender tear
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through things but along the way they're
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learning about the brand If instead they
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said buy this blender it's fantastic you
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love it people wouldn't share that with
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others because it seems like an ad but
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that's not just online it also happens
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offline so there's a great uh Philly
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local example of a restaurant here
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called Barclay Prime that has a $100
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cheese steak now you might sit there and
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go $100 cheese steak what could be on a
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$100 cheese steak well it's everything
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from Kobe beef to Lobster to uh truffles
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comes with a little bottle of champagne
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a remarkable product particularly for
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Philly where we often think about uh
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cheese steaks but again people don't
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want to seem like an advertisement for
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barlay Prime but they do love to talk
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about this remarkable product and along
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the way they talk about the brand and so
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I think it's about understanding what
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consumers like to talk about and then
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attaching your brand or your IDE aidea
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to a story that they want to share MH
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now I me you note that I mean you talked
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a little bit at the beginning about how
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a lot of people seem to think that going
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viral or becoming contagious is a lot
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about luck but that you know this these
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six steps are really what's a lot of
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what's coming into play but I mean for a
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company trying to harness these six
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steps I mean what kind of issues do you
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I mean how much do opposing Market
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forces come into play and what about
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share luck I mean how much does luck
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have anything to do with it at all do
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you think yeah so um what this book is
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is like imagine you're a baseball player
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right and you're hitting pretty well uh
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but you want to raise your batting
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average this book will show you how to
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raise your viral batting average so can
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I guarantee you'll be the next Gangam
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Style with a billion views definitely
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not I can't guarantee that but I can
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guarantee that we'll raise the
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likelihood that consumers talk about and
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share your ideas if person on average
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tells one person we can increase it to
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two if half the people are talking about
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your product we can increase it to 60%
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we have evidence-based uh principles
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that show why people talk about and
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share and so no you know there is some
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luck to get a billion views right you
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can't can't mathematically put something
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together to guarantee that you'll get
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that many views there is a snowball
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effect on the web but you can guarantee
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that more people will talk about your
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brand or more people will share your
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idea if you understand why people talk
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and share now I mean how have changes in
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advertising and the technology landscape
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alter the nature of how things become
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contagious and then sort of conversely
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the reasons or the speed at which they
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maybe become uncont or just kind of
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Peter out I think I mean so advertising
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are is great for broad awareness right
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it's great because it makes many people
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aware that your product exists but it's
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not very persuasive right if we think
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about it we're much more likely to
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believe what our friends say than
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believe what ads i' say and so I'm not
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against advertising if you have enough
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money to buy a Super Bowl commercial and
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that's worth doing on your end it's
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definitely worth doing that's broad
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broad awareness but it's not going to be
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very persuasive what's going to be
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persuasive is hearing about from a
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friend or a colleague or someone you
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know that a product is good right people
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90% of people believe that their friends
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say only about 30% of people believe
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what ads say right so it's much less
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likely to believe what what ads have to
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add and so I think what I would
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recommend to businesses and
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organizations is advertising is not a
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bad thing and indeed it's one way to
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encourage word of mouth but also think
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about why are people going to talk about
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and share your ads once they've happened
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or how can you build content both online
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and Offline that people will talk and
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share I think this conversation is
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focused a lot on the web and and the web
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is important but actually much more word
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of mouth is offline than online there's
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been so much Focus recently on social
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media Technologies Twitter and Facebook
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and the newest shiny new tool that's out
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out there uh but if you think about it
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five or six years ago you know you could
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have been an expert on MySpace you could
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have gone to a talk that says Myspace is
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where you should spend all your
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resources and you could have gone after
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that tool and now that useful knowledge
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would be pretty worthless right no one's
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really on MySpace anymore and so will
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Facebook be around in 10 years will
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Twitter still be around I don't know
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will people still be talking and sharing
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certainly and so it's more about
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understanding why people talk and share
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whether it's online or offline rather
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than focusing on the Technologies
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they're sharing through mhm now in terms
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of that I mean can you think of I mean
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in the book I mean is there a favorite
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example that you have that was most
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surprising and maybe one that doesn't
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necessarily involve word of mouth that's
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specifically was about a viral video or
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something like that uh so one example I
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really like is the example of movember
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uh so nonprofits have a problem and that
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is that most donations to nonprofits are
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pretty private you know what you donate
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to and uh you might even know what your
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spouse donates to or your best friend
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donates to but you don't really have any
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idea what your friends donate to or
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people at the office donate to that
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action is pretty private um but because
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it's private it's hard for that to catch
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on more broadly right if you can't see
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what others are doing it's hard to
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imitate it um so one idea I talk about
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in the book is making the private public
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making it more observable or visible
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what people are doing and a favorite
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example of that is this campaign called
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movember uh so a number of years ago in
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Australia a couple guys got together
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they were drinking beers and they were
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talking you know what would be fun to do
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just as a joke for kicks they decided to
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have a mustache growing contest so they
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grew their best mustache it happened to
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be the month of November so they called
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it movember the next year they had so
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much fun they wanted to do it again so
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they decided to raise money for men's
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cancer uh there's lots of uh campaigns
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for women's cancers uh the 5K races uh
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Susan Gan Foundation lots of different
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things not so much for men's cancers so
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they started to raise money for men's
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cancers but they had the really sharp
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idea of rather than just asking people
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for money they used mustaches as a
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public signal of that private Behavior
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so for the month of November you'd grow
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a mustache and you'd ask people to
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donate money to support the cause uh for
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men's cancers but what's really nice
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about that behavior it's a very public
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Behavior right it's not just asking
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people for money no one can see if
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someone else is part of it if someone's
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part of the campaign you can see that
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they have a mustache on their face so
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someone in your office who you know is a
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pretty button-down uh sort of Guy starts
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sporting a mustache suddenly in in the
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month of November right a big Ry finger
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sort of uh mustache you're going to ask
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them why you doing this right what's
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going on and that will encourage them to
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talk about and share this movember
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campaign which will encourage you to do
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the same thing either that year or next
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year entirely offline but public is a
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really simple way of getting ideas to
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catch on it's similar when you think
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about uh Apple's headphones right so
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used to be we all carried portable CD
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players it was like carrying a pizza you
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had to run like this to make sure it
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didn't skip then they came out with
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these thing called MP3 players really
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great technology but they were super
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expensive is it worth adopting this new
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product well how do I know if it's worth
00:14:50
adopting this new product and so if you
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looked around let's say on the subway or
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the bus and you saw people using the
00:14:55
Microsoft product or a product from
00:14:56
another company you couldn't tell cuz
00:14:58
everyone headphones were black it was
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impossible to see what device someone
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was using as opposed to another device
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but what Apple did really smartly is
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they used white headphones so once you
00:15:07
start seeing a number of people wearing
00:15:08
white headphones you say wow A lot of
00:15:10
people are using this it must be really
00:15:12
good which encourages you to adopt that
00:15:14
product as well it's just like if you've
00:15:16
gone to a a foreign city you don't know
00:15:17
where to eat how do you decide you look
00:15:19
for a restaurant that's full of people
00:15:21
and so it's totally offline example but
00:15:23
you assume if it's full of people it
00:15:25
must be really good and so thinking
00:15:27
about how to make the private public
00:15:28
particularly offline environment is a
00:15:30
great way to help your product catch on
00:15:32
great Jonah thanks so much for being
00:15:33
with us today no problem thanks for
00:15:35
having
00:15:39
[Music]
00:15:57
me
