00:00:02
in his new book invisible influence the
00:00:04
hidden forces that shape Behavior
00:00:06
Wharton marketing Professor Jonah Burger
00:00:08
takes us inside the conscious and
00:00:09
unconscious ways that social influences
00:00:11
shape our decisions Jonah thanks for
00:00:13
being here well thanks for having me now
00:00:15
what was the um what was the inspiration
00:00:16
for focusing on social influence as the
00:00:18
topic of your next book you know there's
00:00:20
a funny story that I I mentioned briefly
00:00:22
in the book but uh a number of years ago
00:00:23
my dad was buying a new car uh and he's
00:00:26
in he lives in DC uh he's a lawyer there
00:00:29
um and he bought a BMW uh and then he
00:00:31
was complaining that all DC lawyers buy
00:00:33
BMWs I said well Dad you bought BMW also
00:00:36
he said oh but mine's a blue one
00:00:37
everyone else drives a gray one um and I
00:00:39
think what's really funny about that is
00:00:42
social influence happens in the world
00:00:43
right we see everybody else doing the
00:00:44
same thing oh look at all those DC
00:00:45
lawyers they all Drive the same car but
00:00:47
when it comes to our own behavior
00:00:49
sometimes we feel like our own behavior
00:00:50
is somehow privileged or different I a
00:00:53
rugged individualist I'm independent no
00:00:55
one else has any effect on on what I do
00:00:57
and actually we're kind of wrong um and
00:00:59
so what I would be interesting to talk
00:01:00
about in this book is all the science
00:01:02
about how others shape our Behavior
00:01:03
often without us knowing it and what we
00:01:05
can do about it and how we can use it to
00:01:06
live happier and healthier lives great
00:01:08
and now your previous book contagious
00:01:10
focused on why things go viral and I
00:01:12
wondered do you feel like there's an
00:01:14
interplay between social influence and
00:01:16
verality I could kind of see why how
00:01:18
there would be oh certainly I mean
00:01:19
they're both related to how people shape
00:01:22
other people's behavior or decisions um
00:01:24
the first book contagious was more about
00:01:26
how do we influence others right if if
00:01:28
I'm a business owner or I have an idea I
00:01:30
want to spread within my organization
00:01:31
contagious was about well we know Word
00:01:33
of Mouth matters how do I get people to
00:01:35
talk about and share my stuff invisible
00:01:37
influence is a little bit actually
00:01:38
almost the converse or the opposite it's
00:01:40
well how are other people affecting my
00:01:41
behavior sure we can use that to
00:01:43
influence others but we can also use it
00:01:45
to make ourselves better off to help us
00:01:46
make better decisions or be healthier
00:01:48
when we're having trouble doing that now
00:01:50
I thought it interesting in the book
00:01:51
that I mean the book's really not about
00:01:53
how to go above the influence because
00:01:55
you kind of make the point that
00:01:56
resistance is a bit futile when it comes
00:01:58
to social influence is that whether we
00:02:00
know it or not it's happening yeah and
00:02:02
and that's I think the most interesting
00:02:03
part you know we see it all the time uh
00:02:05
if you ask people to social inflence
00:02:06
this oh of course you know my neighbor
00:02:08
bought this thing because someone else
00:02:09
bought it um you know my wife did this
00:02:11
thing because someone else was doing it
00:02:12
but we don't we don't necessarily see it
00:02:14
in ourselves and I think that idea of
00:02:15
resistance is futile is important I
00:02:17
think what we have to be careful though
00:02:18
is influence isn't always a bad thing
00:02:20
imagine if we couldn't use others as a
00:02:22
source of information if every time we
00:02:24
wanted to figure out where to go out to
00:02:25
dinner or what movie to watch we had to
00:02:27
sample it ourselves be exhausting we'd
00:02:29
have to read all the you know
00:02:30
information and look at all the options
00:02:32
and Sample a little bit here and there
00:02:34
others are really helpful cue others
00:02:36
often help us make better decisions but
00:02:38
not always uh and so as invisible
00:02:39
inflence talks about you know when to
00:02:41
others help us make better decisions
00:02:42
when do they make worse decisions when
00:02:44
to others motivate us when do they
00:02:45
demotivate Us and how can we use this to
00:02:47
be better off and now that brings me to
00:02:48
my actually my next question so if we if
00:02:50
we know that social influence is going
00:02:52
to play a role and I think even before
00:02:53
like the book we know it it plays a
00:02:54
little bit but your book really shows
00:02:56
how much of a role it really does play
00:02:58
if we know this how can we harness that
00:03:01
and use it to help us make better
00:03:03
decisions yeah so uh great example so uh
00:03:05
one uh one thing I talk a little about
00:03:07
is motivation um others often affect
00:03:09
whether we uh give up whether we try
00:03:11
harder how can we use that to be better
00:03:12
off one thing I felt in my my own life
00:03:15
uh you know you want to exercise you
00:03:16
want to be healthier how can you use
00:03:17
others to help you do that and simple
00:03:19
tricks like working out with other
00:03:20
people um really having someone else to
00:03:22
compare yourself to there's lots of
00:03:23
research on something called social
00:03:25
facilitation merely biking with someone
00:03:27
else for example makes your bike faster
00:03:28
running with someone else makes you run
00:03:30
faster swimming with someone else makes
00:03:31
you swim faster others can help us do
00:03:34
things that we might not do otherwise
00:03:35
and so we can set up situations where we
00:03:37
actually encourage ourselves to be
00:03:39
healthier encourage ourselves to make
00:03:40
better choices by shaping our
00:03:42
environment through others now the book
00:03:44
really plays into sort of the psychonom
00:03:45
made of it either motivates us or
00:03:47
demotivates US social influence makes us
00:03:50
want to do something similar or it makes
00:03:51
us want to do something different what
00:03:53
is I mean what are the factors that go
00:03:54
into determining like how whether social
00:03:57
influence for example want us will want
00:03:59
make us want to buy the same car as our
00:04:00
neighbor versus buy a different one or
00:04:03
make us want to work harder versus give
00:04:05
up yeah so that's I have to give you a
00:04:07
long answer for all of it but I think
00:04:08
some simple things are you know first uh
00:04:10
others often provide information so when
00:04:12
we're uncertain about what to do we
00:04:13
often look to others and that leads us
00:04:15
often to the same thing um yet at the
00:04:17
same time we want to see ourselves as
00:04:18
different particularly in American
00:04:20
culture we like to see ourselves as
00:04:21
special snowflakes no one else is
00:04:22
exactly like my Dad buying you know the
00:04:24
blue BMW rather than the gray one um and
00:04:26
so maybe we pick the same car because we
00:04:28
know it's a good car because there's a
00:04:29
about it but we pick a different color
00:04:31
because colors allow us to feel
00:04:32
different so we're similar and different
00:04:34
at the same time we're we're optimally
00:04:35
distinct or or in terms of motivation
00:04:38
for example you know others can motivate
00:04:39
us except when they're too much better
00:04:41
than we are right if we compare
00:04:42
ourselves to someone who's much better
00:04:44
much faster than we are some it causes
00:04:46
us to give up um you know we say well
00:04:47
there's no way I'm going to reach that
00:04:49
standard or that score that level of
00:04:51
performance and so they're so much
00:04:52
better than than I am that I'm I'm not
00:04:54
going to try anymore and so it's really
00:04:56
about understanding the subtle
00:04:57
differences of social comparisons um and
00:04:59
understand the situations people are in
00:05:01
that that helps us figure out which way
00:05:02
it goes now you have a couple really
00:05:04
interesting sort of examples like this
00:05:05
in this book so one of the one my
00:05:07
favorite one I have to say was about why
00:05:09
does it make it why does social
00:05:10
influence make it harder for us to
00:05:12
parallel park but easier to tie our
00:05:14
shoes and the reason is I hate it when
00:05:15
people watch me parallel park I'm
00:05:17
horrible at it if someone's watching I'm
00:05:19
a master if no one is yeah so actually
00:05:21
can I tell you a story and I started to
00:05:23
get there so there's this wonderful old
00:05:24
study uh on motivation and and so This
00:05:27
research was interested in just the
00:05:28
question you were interested in he
00:05:29
looked at a bunch of re said well
00:05:30
sometimes others seem to be motivating
00:05:31
lead us to work harder do better
00:05:33
sometimes they lead us to get
00:05:34
demotivated to do worse why is that um
00:05:36
you know what are situations that lead
00:05:38
to one versus the other and so he wanted
00:05:40
to figure out a way to test that so he
00:05:41
designed this amazing experiment with um
00:05:44
running actually looking at how uh
00:05:45
running was affected by other other
00:05:47
individuals watching you run but he
00:05:49
didn't do it with people he did it with
00:05:50
cockroaches so he built this like
00:05:52
cockroach Stadium where these little
00:05:54
cockroaches would run cockroach races
00:05:55
you know run from one stadium side to
00:05:57
the other um but then he could
00:05:58
manipulate whether there other
00:06:00
cockroaches watching them by the way
00:06:01
this is sort of ridiculous you about
00:06:02
cockroaches watching other cockroaches
00:06:04
but he was interested in well how does
00:06:05
the mere presence of others affect what
00:06:07
we do uh and he had them run one of two
00:06:09
mazes one that was either Straight Ahead
00:06:10
you're just really easy or one where you
00:06:11
had to run straight and then make a left
00:06:13
turn really difficult more sort of
00:06:15
requirement out do I go right do I go
00:06:16
left what do I do and what he found is
00:06:18
when the task was easy when it was
00:06:20
well-learned running straight something
00:06:21
cockroaches know how to do well having
00:06:23
others around helped them do better they
00:06:25
ran faster with others than they than
00:06:26
they did by themselves but when it was a
00:06:28
difficult task when they had to sort of
00:06:29
figure out do I go left or do I go right
00:06:31
then it was more complicated and then
00:06:33
the mere presence of others actually
00:06:34
made them do worse and so that's exactly
00:06:36
as you mentioned sort of parallel
00:06:37
parking versus other aspects if we know
00:06:40
how to do things well if they're easy
00:06:41
things we've already done a bunch uh
00:06:43
then having other round makes us do them
00:06:44
better uh you know if you're great at
00:06:46
shooting pool for example shooting pool
00:06:48
with someone else will actually make you
00:06:49
better at shooting pool than than by
00:06:50
yourself but if you're not so good at
00:06:52
shooting pool if it's something that
00:06:53
you're not used to doing if it's
00:06:55
difficult for you then having others
00:06:56
around can make you do worse and so
00:06:58
parallel parking for example most of us
00:06:59
maybe some of us are go to parallel
00:07:01
parking but most of us tend to be a
00:07:02
little bit nervous to begin with we're
00:07:03
not excellent parallel Parkers merely
00:07:05
having someone else in the car can make
00:07:07
it more difficult for us makes us more
00:07:09
nervous more anxious and while that
00:07:11
anxiety can help us do better when it's
00:07:12
easy for us to do those tasks they can
00:07:14
lead us to do worse when it's a
00:07:15
difficult or complicated task and now
00:07:17
you also to get back to car buying a
00:07:19
little bit you talk a little bit about
00:07:20
in the book how in fact people who are
00:07:22
more well off they might be more likely
00:07:24
to try to buy a different car than their
00:07:26
neighbors whereas those of us that maybe
00:07:28
more in the middle class class lower
00:07:30
class that we might actually that social
00:07:31
influence might actually cause us to buy
00:07:33
the same car yeah so we tend to think in
00:07:36
American culture that it's the
00:07:37
uniqueness is the right answer people
00:07:38
who are unique and different are good
00:07:40
and people who are conformists are bad
00:07:41
it's like being a conformist is a
00:07:43
negative thing but it's not really a a
00:07:45
right or a wrong answer it's more of a
00:07:46
cultural value think about East Asian
00:07:48
cultural contexts for example where
00:07:49
fitting in being a good member of the
00:07:51
group is is the right answer you know
00:07:52
it's not the squeaky re gets the grease
00:07:54
it's the nail that stands out gets gets
00:07:56
hammered down uh even true an American
00:07:58
cultural context in workingclass context
00:08:01
people like being part of a group people
00:08:03
like being connected to others that are
00:08:05
like them why would it be bad if you had
00:08:06
the same car as your neighbor it shows
00:08:08
that you like the same things that you
00:08:09
have a lot in common whereas in other
00:08:12
parts of American culture we say well oh
00:08:14
you know standing out is the right thing
00:08:15
to do why would I want the same thing as
00:08:16
everyone else I want to show that I'm
00:08:18
different and so what's interesting is
00:08:19
uniqueness isn't right answer or wrong
00:08:21
answer it's just a way of Behaving based
00:08:23
on our social environment now I was
00:08:25
curious about now as the internet has
00:08:27
become part of our daily life Liv all
00:08:30
the time as social media has become more
00:08:32
of our daily lives I feel like it's
00:08:33
easier and easier to know what your
00:08:36
friends are doing it's easier for
00:08:37
companies to know what even what your
00:08:39
friends are doing how does that play
00:08:41
into social influence and maybe the
00:08:44
degree to Which social influence is
00:08:46
playing a role in our decisions yeah
00:08:48
what's so interesting about the internet
00:08:49
it's made information spread faster it's
00:08:51
easier as you nicely said to see what
00:08:53
others are doing but that has two kind
00:08:55
of differing effects first it makes it
00:08:56
easier to copy others right so uh we
00:08:59
hear a new band uh our friends are
00:09:00
listening we're going to listen to it
00:09:02
makes things catch on much faster than
00:09:03
they would have before which seems great
00:09:05
if you're that band it seems fantastic
00:09:07
I've caught on but it also makes it
00:09:08
easier for people to switch to something
00:09:10
else or avoid something because too many
00:09:12
people are doing it as I talk about in
00:09:13
the book you know we don't just want to
00:09:14
be similar we also want to be different
00:09:16
and so sometimes when too many people
00:09:17
like a particular band we say well I
00:09:19
don't like it anymore I like their old
00:09:20
stuff before they became became
00:09:22
mainstream and so what it's really done
00:09:23
is it's led to faster cycles of of fads
00:09:26
and fashion things catch on more quickly
00:09:28
but they also die out just as Qui
00:09:29
quickly and so one thing I talk a lot
00:09:31
about for companies and organizations is
00:09:32
well how do we manage this right as a as
00:09:34
a brand for example I want to catch the
00:09:36
upswing I want my product to be everyone
00:09:38
to be buying it but how do we avoid the
00:09:40
downswing when people say well it's too
00:09:42
popular I don't want it anymore or if
00:09:44
those people are doing it maybe I don't
00:09:45
want it and so how can we capture the
00:09:47
good aspects of that and and avoid the
00:09:49
bad now is it really though I mean it
00:09:51
seems like it would be so fleeting for
00:09:53
companies to catch the upswing like it
00:09:54
seems by the time you know there is an
00:09:56
upswing it's already on the downswing
00:09:58
yeah a little bit I mean uh what what
00:10:00
also allowed and possible now is there's
00:10:01
so much Rich behavioral data that we can
00:10:04
get more of a sense of who's buying
00:10:05
something what else they've bought and
00:10:06
and what they're like and so you know
00:10:08
Amazon for example has a good sense of
00:10:10
what type of books we like and can say
00:10:11
well these type of people used to be
00:10:13
buying this now a different type of of
00:10:14
folks are buying it and so I agree with
00:10:16
you it's not it's not perfect data but
00:10:18
uh it's certainly better than it's been
00:10:19
before now did you C while you were
00:10:21
writing this book or researching this
00:10:22
book did you catch yourself at all in
00:10:24
terms of like were you surprised to
00:10:25
realize how social influence played into
00:10:28
your decisions yeah I am the worst
00:10:30
person to uh shop with or make decisions
00:10:32
with I have a huge problem making
00:10:34
decisions in part of it because I'm
00:10:35
always thinking well what are other
00:10:37
people doing right and I'm saying well
00:10:38
if they're doing it's the reason I'm
00:10:39
doing it because other people are doing
00:10:41
it or do I really like it uh myself and
00:10:44
what's interesting is there's no answer
00:10:45
to that question um others often affect
00:10:47
us without our our realizing it but by
00:10:49
being aware of it sometimes hopefully we
00:10:51
can make better decisions than than we
00:10:53
would have otherwise now as you were
00:10:54
saying like we have this Vision I mean
00:10:56
particularly I think in an American
00:10:57
culture of this you know the rugged
00:10:59
individualist I mean we place a very
00:11:00
high value on non-conformists I mean
00:11:04
non-conformists are the best they're you
00:11:05
know path Breakers they're you know
00:11:07
they're above the influence but what
00:11:09
does this book say about like I mean
00:11:11
does a non-conformist really exist and
00:11:13
if it does I mean this book sort of
00:11:15
speaks to like how hard it must be to
00:11:18
really be a non-conformist yeah so
00:11:20
there's um uh there's a great cartoon
00:11:22
South Park uh you're probably aware of
00:11:24
it uh that has a show uh where um one of
00:11:26
the characters says to another oh you
00:11:28
know you can't be a non-conformist uh if
00:11:30
you don't drink coffee uh and what I
00:11:33
think is so true about that is even
00:11:34
non-conformists are conforming it's very
00:11:37
rare that you find someone that's not
00:11:39
influenced by by anyone else even
00:11:40
avoiding what others are doing you're
00:11:42
still being influenced you're just
00:11:43
saying well I don't want to be like them
00:11:45
you know uh Goths for example you know
00:11:47
you look at kids that dress in all black
00:11:48
well they're all actually pretty similar
00:11:50
to one another and we like to see
00:11:52
ourselves as different we like to think
00:11:53
oh you know the unique person the
00:11:55
non-conformist they win out they lead
00:11:57
companies really those people conform
00:11:59
just as much as everybody else it's just
00:12:02
they don't seem like they're conforming
00:12:03
because they may not be doing what the
00:12:05
mainstream is doing but they tend to
00:12:06
still do what what other people like
00:12:08
them do great Jonah thanks so much for
00:12:10
being here oh thanks so much for having
00:12:11
me
00:12:22
[Music]
