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Barbara Kahn: If I'm going to create a brand
identity, I want people to see
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that everywhere you encounter
the brand, at every single touch
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point. So I've got to design the
design system, the brand system,
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so that you pay attention to the
things I want you to pay
00:00:14
attention to, and that you
understand what the message is
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about the brand. The design and
the visual features have to
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speak to the brand identity, the
brand mantra. That's how it
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differs from a design system to
a brand system.
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Dan Loney: Welcome to the Ripple Effect,
the podcast that takes you on a
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journey through the minds of
Wharton faculty. I'm your host,
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Dan Loney, and in each episode,
we'll be diving deep into the
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inspiration behind the
groundbreaking research that
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Wharton professors have
conducted and exploring how
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their findings resonate with the
world today. The digital
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transformation continues to roll
ahead, with the latest component
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being the impact that artificial
intelligence is having and will
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have in the future. It also
means that there is a greater
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focus on marketing, especially
with the visual component, and
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that is the focus of a new book
out by our two guests joining me
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here in studio. The book is
titled <i>Visual Marketing: A</i>
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<i>Practical Guide to the Science
of Branding and Retailing.</i> And
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the authors, Barbara Kahn,
Wharton, Marketing Professor
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here at Wharton School, and
Elizabeth (Zab) Johnson, who is
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Executive Director and Senior
Fellow of the Wharton
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Neuroscience Initiative. Great
to see you. Thanks for coming in today.
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- Yeah, it's great to be here.
- All right, so, Barbara,
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where do you -- I mean, there's
been so much conversation about
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digital transformation. Where do
you think we are right now with
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how much impact it is having in
the world of marketing right
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now? - Yeah, in the world of
marketing and in retailing, the
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world is definitely an
omnichannel kind of world, which
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means it's not all digital, it's
not all physical, but it's a
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seamless translation between the
two. And the one thing that
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carries from the physical world
to the digital world and back is
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the visual component. So
suddenly, visual marketing is
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more important than ever. It's
not only true in retailing,
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where you see things that are
being sold in a physical store,
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and you have to think about how
they look in the physical store,
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then you have to translate that
visual imagery, branding to the
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digital world, but it's also
true in packaging. So now you
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look at -- you buy things online,
and you're not necessarily
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looking at a package in the same
way as you did in the store, and
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you're also not looking at the
package in the same way when it
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comes in a box and you open it.
So there's a whole new visual
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canvas that you can look at in
the unopening or the opening of
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a box in that sense. Similarly,
with branding, you need to have
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a visual branding identity that
goes from all of these different
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worlds, from the physical world
to the digital world. And
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obviously a lot of marketing has
changed into social media, and a
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lot of that social media
marketing is very visual.
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- But obviously is that -- the
component of neuroscience and
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retail has really, I think,
exploded, what, it feels like in the
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last couple of decades in terms
of the importance of truly
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understanding how the consumer
thinks about retailing,
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branding. So where then does
this visual marketing component
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fit in with the neuroscience
side of things?
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Elizabeth (Zab) Johnson: Yeah,
so I mean, I think you're right that the
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amount of visual information
that is coming to the average
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viewer has exploded, and that is
because we have access to so
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much more technology driven
things that
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are visual, and we have more
choice than we have ever have
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had before. And so because of
that, there's actually a lot of
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sort of basic ground truth
science, neuroscience, and
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psychology that we understand
about how people take in visual
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information, how they begin to
learn from visual information,
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associate complex meaning
with the kinds of visual
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information that they're taking
in, make actions, choice,
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decision, etcetera. And so, you know,
it was sort of that approach to
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sort of thinking about both
the sort of optimizations that
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one can make if you
understand the basic principles
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behind the way that we take in
visual information and use it to
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guide our behaviors,
and then thinking about how that
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could also be a challenge,
right? And that there are some
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certain limitations, so ways to
optimize for it, and then to
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sort of be much more aware of
the kinds of limitations that --
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the biology constraints.
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- What's interesting, and you and
I have talked about this to a
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degree before, Barbara, is the
fact that with all of the kind
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of visual content that is out
there, it's probably as
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challenging, or maybe even as
interesting for retailers,
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marketers, than it ever has
been, because there has been
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this transformation, and we all
live on our smartphones, and
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it's just kind of the the big
switch that we've been making
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the last 10 to 20
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years. - Yeah, so I mean, and
that's kind of why we wrote this
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book, to kind of give a
framework for how marketers can
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think about it. So one of the
things that, in working together,
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Zab and I, it was really nice to
have this different approach.
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She came in with the
neuroscience approach. I came
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in, most of my research is in
visual marketing, I've done that
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kind of work over time, to look
at things that we found united
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our two approaches, and I think
we came in with a new framework
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of what matters. What are the
principles that matter in visual
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marketing, and how should a
marketer think about it? The
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first thing, and I think Zab and
I can speak to it in different
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ways, is the importance of
attention. So when she's talking
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about all this choice in all of
these different worlds, what
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matters to a marketer is what
you focus on, what you pay
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attention to, and we know
certain visual properties that
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are going to drive attention.
The second thing that matters is
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how quickly you can understand
things, and that's going to be a
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notion of fluency. And so we
also know things from the
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marketing point of view, or from
the neuroscience point of view,
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that drives instant
understanding of what you see.
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So we found that there was
attention, fluency, the formation
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of perceptions, and then
emotional reaction to it, the
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social reaction to it, and
eventually what you choose.
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- So speak to that from the
neuroscience side about how
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those components kind of factor
in as well.
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- I mean, all of those things have
underlying sort of biology
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underneath that. So
for one thing, like, one of the
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things that we start off with in
the book is to really
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sort of debunk this idea that,
you know, people have a
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shrinking attention span, for
example. This is a notion that's
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out in, you know, social
media, and it gets talked about
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in lots of different outlets.
And from the science, what
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we know is that fundamentally,
attention as a phenomenon
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that the human brain does isn't
changed, right? We're not
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evolving that quickly. And
we should know that inherently,
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because we have things like
binge watching. So people
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actually are paying attention to
content, but it has to really
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drive engagement to do that. But
what has shifted is access to
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a lot more, and to have the
choice of of the access points.
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And so what that has done is
made the cost to moving on to
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new content much lower, and so
people will just abandon you,
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you know, your --
the notion that you're
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trying to get across to them
much more rapidly. So that means
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that as marketers, you actually
have to get down to the basic
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principles of what biologically
is going to drive that in the
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first place, and then use other
principles to maintain
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engagement.
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- And then, so what is that
process then, Barbara, in making
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that quicker connection with the
consumer because of this
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voluminous level of content that
we have out there right now?
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- Yeah, so maybe our
attention spans are not
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biologically changing, but we
all know we have, like, two
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seconds deal with anything. And
so what that says is, from a
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marketing point of view, if in
the first 15 seconds, I didn't
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engage you, I didn't get your
attention, I have no chance. So
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you think about like
these videos you watch, or these
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ads you watch before you watch a
YouTube content, you've got to
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have something in the first five
seconds that gets attention and
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associates the brand with that
attention. So that's going to
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change the way you develop these
ads. Just as an example, the
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same thing is true on packaging
or in branding. I don't have
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very much time. I've got to get
your attention. I've got to
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associate the brand. And so
therefore, you've got to know
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what drives attention. So for
example, a very obvious one is
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salience. You know, if something is
salient, it drives attention. So
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if you've got a spark of color
or an unusual shape, the eye is
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going to go to that. So I'm
going to get attention right
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away, and then I want that
attention tied to the brand if
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I'm trying to maximize the value
of my advertising. If you don't
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know what this ad is for,
obviously it didn't buy me
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anything. You know, and that's
the same thing with packaging.
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If I'm trying to create a
certain perception about the
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product, I need to make those
connections salient so you pay
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attention to it on the
package, and fluid, so that you
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associate it with the brand, or
what I'm trying to sell.
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- How then does that also
impact that concept of branding,
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which we've talked about,
especially in recent years, it
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feels like, companies are more
focused on brand than ever
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before, of what they want to do
with that brand, to deliver that
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message, connect with the
consumer, but also doing so,
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especially with some products,
with kind of the historic nature
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or the success that they've had
in the past? - Yeah,
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I couldn't agree with you more.
I've been thinking about this a
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lot. As we get more and more
sophisticated in marketing and
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all these other things, the one
thing that continues to be true
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is the importance of print. Why
would I pick one product over
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another? Because I identify
with that brand, you know?
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America's -- my co-host of
Marketing Matters talks about
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brand identity, you know? And
he's right. He's talking about
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the tribe, you know?
What are the
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brands that I identify with? So
when you think about visual
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marketing in terms of branding,
what people sometimes
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erroneously think is about
design. And yeah, the brand
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should look pretty, and we want
people who have good eyes, and
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know, you know, what colors go
together, what shapes go
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together. It does matter, but
that's not what we're talking
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about with a visual brand
identity. It gets back to those
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principles that I was talking
about in the first place. If I'm
00:10:36
going to create a brand
identity, I want people to see
00:10:40
that everywhere you encounter
the brand at every single touch
00:10:43
point. So I've got to design the
design system, the brand system,
00:10:47
so that you pay attention to the
things I want you to pay
00:10:50
attention to, and that you
understand what the message is
00:10:53
about the brand. The design and
the visual features have to
00:10:57
speak to the brand identity, the
brand mantra. That's how it
00:11:00
differs from a design system to
a brand system.
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- So Zab, I mean, it feels like a
lot of the elements which
00:11:08
Barbara has talked about have
been around the concept of
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marketing for a while, but the
focus, and really the moving
00:11:16
forward, where you focus on the
neuroscience side of this, how
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relatively new is this in terms
of incorporating it into the
00:11:24
world of marketing? And I guess,
to a degree, where might this be
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taking us in the future?
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- Yeah, so that's a great
question. I mean, it is kind of
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new, right? Even though,
on the one hand, like these
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communities were actually not
speaking to one another until
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very recently. And I think the
explosion of analytics in
00:11:43
companies means that actually
marketing teams are getting more
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interdisciplinary. I think they
are hiring people that have
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behavioral science backgrounds,
neuroscience backgrounds, and
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that is influencing the kinds of
choices that people are being
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presented with, and the
different environments that
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people are using, but it's slow.
And I think what
00:12:02
we found, and, you know, one of
the reasons for the book, right,
00:12:05
was to really reinforce
that these things are really
00:12:08
related, and that they should be
taken together a lot. Because
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some gut intuition, from the
marketing standpoint, has a real
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basis in the science. But not
all of it is, you know,
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reinforced that
way. - One of the
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things that I can say is, you
know, we're in the world of big
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data now. And so a lot of
times, the usual ways that
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marketers collect the data was
asking people what they think.
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We no longer do that because we
know that what people say they
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think and what they do are two
different things. So
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we're looking at data, we're
looking at choice data,
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behavioral data, stuff like
that. But what we bring here,
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and what Zab brings in and
brings into our book and into
00:12:45
the course, is the importance of
eye tracking data, for example,
00:12:48
so that I can ask you, "What do
you pay attention to?" Well, you
00:12:52
can say whatever you want, may
or may not be what's actually
00:12:55
true, but your eyes don't lie.
And so if you're tracking this,
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in eye tracking, you can get
what really causes attention,
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and you can get how long you're
looking at things, and how much
00:13:06
you're processing it. You know,
the time you spend looking at
00:13:09
something is somewhat of a
measure of how much processing
00:13:12
you're doing about that thing.
So the data now is as legitimate
00:13:17
as the behavioral data is. It's
not asking you what's the matter,
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what you think about it, it's
looking at what your body is
00:13:25
really telling us. And then if
you add MRI data, and you add
00:13:28
like perspiration and arousal
data and all these other things,
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you can really test how these
different visual systems are
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driving marketing response.
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- Are we then -- is it safe to
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say that we're kind of in the
early stages of what could be an
00:13:43
incredible growth to the impact
that visual marketing is going
00:13:47
to have on businesses, on
consumers, on so much of our
00:13:51
culture as we move forward here?
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- Well, you know, early stages,
when somebody gets a good idea,
00:13:55
it goes like rapid fire.
So I think a lot of advertisers
00:13:58
know this. You know, they're --
like, I said, you've got five
00:14:01
seconds in your ad to get --
people are going to go right
00:14:04
through that ad. If I don't get
your engagement, I'm done, right?
00:14:07
So they'll take any tool they
can get. So I'm involved in, you
00:14:11
know, Advertising Research
Federation. You are with that
00:14:14
too. And Marketing Science
Institute and things like that.
00:14:16
And we know that these
advertisers, these marketers,
00:14:19
they're using these
tools, for sure. They're using
00:14:23
eye tracking, they're using MRI,
they're using time, they're
00:14:26
using -- in addition to customer
analytics and purchase behavior
00:14:30
and AB testing and all of that.
But this is another mechanism,
00:14:33
and what I love about it is it's
really focused on the importance
00:14:37
of the visual cues.
00:14:39
- What do you think, from this
scientific side, about this
00:14:42
involvement and this emphasis
that we're seeing around all of
00:14:46
this important data, around
visual marketing?
00:14:49
- Well, I think it's a really
exciting time, right? And I
00:14:51
think -- again, I think
that that we have a lot to -- like,
00:14:54
we have a lot to learn. I mean,
that's one of the reasons why I
00:14:57
love the academic side of
things, is that we -- like, from
00:15:00
coming into dialogue with applied,
real, applied learning, we have
00:15:04
access, actually, you know,
to a suite of data we could
00:15:09
never even dream of, right? And
so I think this is going to --
00:15:13
like, I think this is just going
to lead to such great work, where
00:15:17
you can take some of the
academic neuroscience and now
00:15:20
put it into practice and now see
whether the theories hold, you
00:15:25
know, at a scale and in the real
environment, right? In the real
00:15:28
world, right? Rather than in the
constrained laboratory. And I
00:15:32
think that that's -- I think
that's one of the most exciting
00:15:36
situations that we have
with this.
00:15:38
- Great to have you both
here. Thanks very much. Barbara,
00:15:40
Zab, all the best. - Thank you.
- Thank you.
00:15:42
The book, again, by the way, is <i>Visua</i><i>l</i>
00:15:44
<i>Marketing: A Practical Guide to
the Science and Branding of</i>
00:15:49
<i>Retailing</i>. Pick it up. It's a
great read. Thank you for
00:15:52
listening to the Ripple Effect.
We hope you found this episode
00:15:55
informative and engaging. Don't
forget to subscribe and leave us
00:15:59
a review so that we can continue
to bring you the best insight
00:16:02
from the Wharton School.
