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[Music]
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mate it is so good thank you so much for
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coming over I really appreciate it
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Marcus Daniel
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um New Zealand's best male tennis player
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oh I can't claim that man to Mike Venus
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uh definitely Pips me there I'll claim
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number two okay
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Pantheon I don't no uh well I just
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Googled and it ranked New Zealand's goat
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tennis players uh the greatest of all
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time
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um this is a horrible opening question
00:00:34
but where do you think you would where
00:00:36
do you think this website Pantheon
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placed you in terms of New Zealand's
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guides number one Anthony Wilding yeah
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that's without a doubt
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it I think it ultimately depends on how
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you weight singles versus doubles ah so
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I'd
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I think I'd put Mike Venus number two
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because he's won a grand slam
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interesting uh uh I think I'd put Chris
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Lewis number three finalist at it was
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Wimbledon right Wimbledon Pharmacy yeah
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83 I think it was
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and by the way you did right there
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Chrysalis is number three uh
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uh are we so I'm actually my mind went
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straight to men I should include yeah
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this is mean sorry okay men uh
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our economy might be like number
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five or six ding ding ding you are so
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it's um Anthony Wilding on a parent ah
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yeah I forgot uh Chrysalis number three
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Michael Venus number four and you Marcus
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Daniel number five what about Kelly
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evendon was he I remember him we were a
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tennis family growing up so I wear
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tennis on all the time should he not be
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ahead of you I mean the fact the fact
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that he did it on one lung you know yeah
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it probably should be
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um it's great to have you here um
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I hope this is an embarrassing but um I
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want to I want to bring this up because
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um I thought this was really cool you
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you reached out to me about coming onto
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the podcast and I I'm stoked about that
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and you're not the first person to do
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that um and I really really appreciate
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it um but that must mean there is
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something in particular you want to talk
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about or get off your chest or promote
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what is it yeah so why did you reach out
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this is so we were speaking a little
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earlier about tour poppy syndrome and so
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in 2020 I founded a non-profit called
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high impact athletes and I'm incredibly
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passionate about it I believe that we
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have the potential to do a huge amount
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of good in the world and basically the
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realization that led me to want to start
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high impact athletes was I I had been
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involved in the charity space for five
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or six years myself donating a decent
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percentage of my own income to charity
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but I'd never spoken about it publicly
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public publicly and the reason I hadn't
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spoken about it was because I'm a kiwi
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and I have tall puppy syndrome and I
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never wanted to sort of
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put myself out there as like hey I'm I'm
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doing this this thing that I think is
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good uh but the realization was by not
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talking about it I may have just lost
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the opportunity to make more impact you
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know if someone enjoys the ideas then
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maybe they'll start donating and and
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making a positive impact on the world
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and you know there was
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years of opportunity cost there so uh
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yeah the the reason I I reach out is I
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really want to get high impact athletes
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known around the world I want to get the
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idea of giving back more popular and
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mainstream culture and and especially
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and more accurately the idea of trying
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to give really effectively so
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you know there are literally millions of
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charities in the world yeah and tens of
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thousands in New Zealand alone it's
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incredibly difficult to know which are
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the good ones and so what we do at high
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impact athletes is work with the best
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research organizations to identify the
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best Charities and if you just direct
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your donations to the right place it can
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go literally hundreds of times further
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so that's that's the message that I'm
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really passionate about getting out yeah
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what do you mean a Good Charity in terms
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of like the the overheads and how much
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of the money gets it gets to where it's
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supposed to is that what you mean or
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that's definitely one of the metrics so
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I think all of the sort of Scandal
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stories in the charity space are yeah
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you know like 80 goes to filling the
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CEO's pockets and the the extra 20 goes
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to actually trying to do some good so
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that's one aspect and transparency is is
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very very important in this space and
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it's probably not prevalent enough in
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the space
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um but the other thing and probably the
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most important thing is measuring impact
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over time so it's really good to spend
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money on on interventions that we think
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are going to be good but if they don't
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turn out to actually have an impact over
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time then there's sort of a waste of
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money yeah and a lot of Charities will
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do the outputs so they'll measure the
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interventions that they do but they
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won't measure you know like two years
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out has it actually had a lasting impact
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or five years out has it had a lasting
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impact so what really matters is the
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outcome right what really matters is
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that we're actually making a positive
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impact on the world so the Charities
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that we work with they they basically do
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the best measuring and if you do good
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measuring then you you actually know
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what what your donation is doing what
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the money that you're spending is doing
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why are you you mentioned before that
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you were sort of donating uh donating
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you know money under the sort of cover
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of Darkness because of the tall poppy
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thing
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um it must have been a big call let's
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see you're you know you're you're a
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young pro tennis player in your 20s
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probably not sure where your next you
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know checks coming from I don't know I'm
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guessing it's a week to week sort of
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existence
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um that seems like a big call giving
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away some of your money
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yeah and to be honest it only only felt
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like I could when I started breaking
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even from tennis so that probably I
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think that happened in maybe 2014 was
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the first year that I actually made
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enough prize money that I covered
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expenses and
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when that happened and and that was
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around the time that I started focusing
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on doubles I actually felt like I could
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have a career in this thing you know and
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actually put some money away in the bank
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which was a lovely feeling after you
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know dedicating 10 years of my life to
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it
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um
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but then with that little sense of
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Financial Security it was like well I
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had this really strong urge to give back
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and
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sport is selfish like All Sport
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regardless of whether it's team sport or
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individual sport like we're propelled by
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this really strong desire to sort of
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rise to the top and that's necessary
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like the selfishness is necessary but it
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never sat perfectly with who I wanted to
00:06:23
be away from tennis
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and also for me it was you know like
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even when you're not making money from
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tennis you're flying around the world
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for 10 months of the year and and
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playing all these tournaments and carbon
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Footprints huge and that never sat well
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so when I when I first felt like I had
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the ability to give back it was like
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okay I really want to but how and that
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was actually when I discovered this this
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area of effective giving because you
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know like a good Millennial I jumped on
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Google and and basically typed in like
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how how to give back best or something
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like that
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and yeah eventually came to this idea of
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well if you're going to give back it
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makes sense to to give back in the best
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way that you can and being an athlete
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you know optimization is just part of
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the everyday vocabulary you know we're
00:07:06
we're trying to get the most we can out
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of our bodies every single hour of
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training and just to playing that same
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framework to charity made sense so with
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um hia high impact athletes um do you do
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like a percentage of your money each
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year how does it work so I I personally
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made a commitment uh at the start of
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2021 to give a minimum of 10 for the
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rest of my life and that like for me
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that feels really good it was a journey
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as well I started in 2016 I think was
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the first year I made a pledge at one
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percent and just built up over time but
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high impact athletes is it's more of a
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community and educational platform so we
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speak to athletes from all around the
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world we have around over 165 athletes
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from over 30 different countries around
00:07:49
40 different sports who all want to use
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their platforms and their careers to do
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good
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and pledging is sort of the the biggest
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ask of our athletes so the pledge is two
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percent or more of of annual income but
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athletes can come on at whatever they
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feel is right for them because
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a reality that I think not enough people
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outside of sport know is that the
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majority of athletes are are really not
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not making a lot of money you know
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um I know yeah geez it must be
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exhausting hardest way to make an easy
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living yeah yeah honestly I think so you
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know the amount it's all encompassing
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what you have to put into it and you
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know most Olympic athletes are
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scratching a living it's the very lucky
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small percentage that actually do really
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well out of sport so it's meeting
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athletes where they're at
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um you know if if they're able and
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willing to donate which you know luckily
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being from New Zealand most of us can
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give something whether it's you know the
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the cost of a cup of coffee a month or
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whatever
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um but the other thing that we as
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athletes can use as voice and that's you
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know part of why I reached out is I
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think uh
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for better or worse and and maybe this
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is undeserved in in a lot of cases but
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we have a louder voice than a lot of
00:08:58
other people in in society and you've
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got a platform yeah exactly and you know
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the sport sector is mainly used to sell
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stuff and I'm hoping that we can use
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that clout and that influence to to do
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some good in the world good for you good
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so anyone that's listening to this how
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is there anything they can do absolutely
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I mean
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came up with a little phrase that I
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quite like which is you know you you you
00:09:21
can be LeBron James or James LeBron but
00:09:23
every every dollar that you give does
00:09:25
the same when it gets to the Charities
00:09:26
right like we're trying to use the the
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voice of athletes and and you know
00:09:31
create a movement around athletes But
00:09:33
ultimately we want all of the people who
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follow athletes to get involved like
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that's that's how I think the snowball
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grows is people hearing good ideas and
00:09:41
saying you know what that that sounds
00:09:43
pretty cool and and you know if you go
00:09:45
to highimpacts.org sorry for the little
00:09:48
pitch here no not at all go ahead it's
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it has all of our recommended Charities
00:09:52
we don't take any cut of any money
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that's donated whether it's from an
00:09:56
athlete or from anyone in in the public
00:09:58
uh and you know with these Charities you
00:10:01
can just do a huge amount of good I mean
00:10:03
one
00:10:04
one thing is for the cost of a cup of
00:10:07
coffee you can give someone access to
00:10:09
clean water for three people sorry give
00:10:11
three people access to clean water for a
00:10:13
year so if a charity is really cost
00:10:15
effective then that's the sort of impact
00:10:17
that we can make on people's lives and I
00:10:19
think that's pretty damn special
00:10:21
let's come from is this just is it how
00:10:24
you were raised is the rest of your
00:10:26
family like this
00:10:27
you you
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um I don't know it just seems like
00:10:30
you're very immature uh when I was your
00:10:32
age I was a [ __ ] mixer you're giving
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money to a charity would have been the
00:10:36
last thing how old are you 30 33 33 last
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thing on my mind at 33. I know maybe
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it's a good bluff
00:10:42
um no no no it cannot be I'm not going
00:10:45
to accept your modesty it can't be a
00:10:46
bluff like it's got to come from a
00:10:47
genuine place you're not doing this for
00:10:49
clout
00:10:50
well so I think my family is generous in
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general
00:10:54
um
00:10:55
I think I'm I'm really really lucky to
00:10:59
have an older brother who's always been
00:11:01
a questioner of things and you know like
00:11:04
I guess most younger brothers I'd copy
00:11:06
him and pretty much everything when we
00:11:07
were younger and and
00:11:09
he's always sort of
00:11:11
question what's right and wrong and had
00:11:14
his own way of thinking about that and
00:11:15
so when I was in my young 20s and I was
00:11:18
sort of doing a University degree
00:11:20
alongside tennis
00:11:21
doing some philosophy papers came across
00:11:24
a guy called Peter singer who is
00:11:26
probably one of the world's most
00:11:28
influential philosophers at the moment
00:11:30
and he wrote a book called the life you
00:11:32
can save and he has he has this essay
00:11:35
it's it's now become quite a famous
00:11:36
essay it's called the the
00:11:39
drowning child essay or something like
00:11:41
that and the broad Strokes are sounds
00:11:43
like a rom-com
00:11:44
it's it's definitely it's a punch in the
00:11:47
face but it's so imagine you're you're
00:11:50
wearing a nice suit that you just bought
00:11:52
recently a nice pair of shoes you're
00:11:54
walking to work uh and there's like a
00:11:56
shallow Pond like a foot deep Pond that
00:11:58
you're walking past and then you notice
00:12:00
that there's a child drowning in the
00:12:01
pond and of course you can just walk in
00:12:05
and say save this child but you realize
00:12:07
that you're wearing your nice new
00:12:09
expensive suit and if you jump in you
00:12:11
probably ruin this thing that costs you
00:12:12
you know a couple thousand dollars
00:12:14
do you walk into the pond and save the
00:12:17
child
00:12:18
and no brainer right exactly right so
00:12:21
everyone has this emotional response of
00:12:23
course you'd walk into the pond and save
00:12:24
the child and Peter singer's uh question
00:12:28
to us is well why aren't we doing that
00:12:30
every day because just because the child
00:12:32
is not in front of us drowning in a pond
00:12:34
for a similar amount of money we can
00:12:36
literally be saving lives in the poorest
00:12:38
places in the world and actually that's
00:12:40
like this idea that a life is worth a
00:12:42
life regardless of where it is that's a
00:12:45
real key part of high impact athletes
00:12:47
because our money can just do so much
00:12:50
more good in the poorest places in the
00:12:51
world so reading that essay and you know
00:12:54
reflecting on my own life and what I
00:12:56
could and couldn't do and how I wanted
00:12:58
to act in the world that was it was
00:13:01
powerful for me and you know it took me
00:13:02
a while to sort of act on it but all of
00:13:05
those sorts of arguments have yeah I
00:13:07
guess just over time I found I couldn't
00:13:09
turn away from them yeah oh good for you
00:13:11
good for you yeah I'd like to think I'm
00:13:13
quite altruistic now I'm quite
00:13:14
reasonably generous but I that wasn't
00:13:17
until a point in my life where I was
00:13:19
comfortable and established myself right
00:13:20
so the fact that you're trying to you
00:13:23
know I don't know like feather your own
00:13:25
beard or feather your own nest whatever
00:13:26
you want to phrase it and and also give
00:13:28
it the same time I think that's
00:13:29
remarkable oh thank you and I you know I
00:13:32
also I think I'm incredibly lucky I mean
00:13:35
you know I grew up in New Zealand's a
00:13:37
lot of rapid eye
00:13:40
Frozen comes to write it up but you know
00:13:43
loving family you know had all the
00:13:45
support that I could ever want and and
00:13:48
just by virtue of being born in a high
00:13:50
income country I mean like we're we're
00:13:52
the lucky ones in the world and and I
00:13:55
think recognizing that helped me to be
00:13:57
more generous early on because they're
00:13:59
ultimately like
00:14:00
most people in a high income country can
00:14:03
give say one percent of their income and
00:14:06
not notice a drop in the quality of
00:14:08
their life yeah absolutely so if that's
00:14:09
the case like why not you can if you can
00:14:11
help hundreds of people yeah so who's in
00:14:13
your family I know your sister is um
00:14:15
Jess from Jess's underground kitchen
00:14:17
yeah who else you got a brother you
00:14:19
mentioned a brother yeah Josh uh he's
00:14:22
he's CEO of a fintech company now called
00:14:25
akahu
00:14:26
um he grew Snowball Effect which is an
00:14:29
equity crowdfunding platform from he was
00:14:31
he was sort of the first CEO of that
00:14:34
um yeah very intelligent guy and and is
00:14:37
making some waves in the fintech space
00:14:39
and yeah I think lucky to have siblings
00:14:41
who who pushed me along and we will pull
00:14:44
each other in different directions like
00:14:45
a high performing family so you're
00:14:47
almost like or the family
00:14:49
yeah I'm I'm definitely the dumb one in
00:14:53
the family amazing wow God your parents
00:14:55
must be so proud all right all right um
00:14:57
okay we'll go all the way back so um
00:14:59
you're from masterton you say we are in
00:15:02
the water level yeah or grew up uh first
00:15:04
few years so I'm from a farming family
00:15:06
yeah um grew up sort of 30 minutes
00:15:07
outside masterton and dairy farm or
00:15:10
chicken beef or Ram breeding more
00:15:12
accurately
00:15:13
um and then moved about 10 minutes
00:15:14
outside masterton when I was about four
00:15:16
or five to for us kids to go to school
00:15:19
in masterton yeah and and um you were
00:15:22
playing tennis from a very young age I I
00:15:24
heard a podcast you did and you talked
00:15:25
about having um like a tennis ball
00:15:27
hanging in a hanging in a stocking yeah
00:15:29
yeah that was mum's genius way of
00:15:32
keeping me occupied for hours at a time
00:15:33
how old how old are we talking
00:15:36
so it's kind of like Tiger Woods in a
00:15:38
way you know you see footage of Tiger
00:15:39
Woods um on like TV shows working a golf
00:15:42
ball when he's a similar age yeah you
00:15:44
were just like heading heading heading
00:15:46
balls from a very young age I was I
00:15:48
think the difference if I remember
00:15:49
Tiger's story correctly it was somewhat
00:15:52
forced on him was it yeah like for me it
00:15:55
was I just I just dragged the racket
00:15:57
around right everywhere was it a tennis
00:15:58
family
00:16:00
yeah but well my parents played uh
00:16:04
well I guess recreationally they they
00:16:06
played you know they represented
00:16:08
wadarapa at its rep level so they could
00:16:11
play
00:16:12
um but never took it seriously yeah uh
00:16:14
but on at The Farmhouse there's an old
00:16:17
concrete Court there and you know long
00:16:19
summer evenings they'd jump out and hit
00:16:21
some balls around after the farm day had
00:16:24
finished and my older siblings would
00:16:26
jump out and so I'd want to jump out and
00:16:27
I think it just sort of you know it was
00:16:29
just fun and it was
00:16:31
it was purely fun really until I was
00:16:34
probably about 15 like yeah until I I
00:16:37
moved out to boarding school here in
00:16:38
Auckland to try and sort of be a bit
00:16:40
more serious about it but until then it
00:16:41
was just like a summer sport that I did
00:16:43
alongside all sorts of other ones
00:16:45
yeah
00:16:46
um so would you say you naturally
00:16:48
naturally talented or you just did the
00:16:49
hours you know these um Malcolm
00:16:51
gladweller he's got a book called The
00:16:52
Tipping Point he talks about the 10 000
00:16:54
hour Theory like ten thousand hours to
00:16:55
get to get you know it's good pretty
00:16:57
much as good as what you're going to get
00:16:58
and anything but you I suppose if you're
00:17:00
starting at two you would have got your
00:17:01
ten thousand hours under your belt quite
00:17:03
a quite a young age actually I think
00:17:05
probably not because I didn't play that
00:17:07
much yeah you know like
00:17:09
yeah in summer I was doing all sorts of
00:17:12
other stuff you know we were going
00:17:13
hiking surfing from a pretty young age
00:17:15
like basketball
00:17:17
um
00:17:18
yeah I reckon I was actually behind
00:17:22
the international level until I was
00:17:24
probably sort of early 20s uh terms of
00:17:27
hours yeah oh
00:17:28
um but you you so were you just sort of
00:17:31
naturally good then because I heard
00:17:32
stories about like you as a boy like
00:17:34
beating grown-ass men
00:17:36
yeah the truth was that what
00:17:39
like loaded up it doesn't have the
00:17:41
deepest pool of talent but if you but if
00:17:44
you're a primary school aged kid like
00:17:45
it's still you're beating an adult is
00:17:47
still a big thing I think
00:17:48
yeah so I think there was some natural
00:17:50
Talent uh
00:17:52
yeah yeah there was natural talent and I
00:17:55
think that took me
00:17:57
that took me quite far it took me to
00:18:00
like the top National level in age
00:18:02
groups and that sort of stuff
00:18:03
but then
00:18:05
you know so I I went to Europe for the
00:18:07
first time when I was 17 and that was a
00:18:09
punch in the face that was like oh you
00:18:11
just realized how [ __ ] you were yeah
00:18:13
exactly you know for tennis very small
00:18:15
pond here in New Zealand so I was like
00:18:17
okay you know I can just sort of this is
00:18:19
this is what I need to do to be a top
00:18:21
tennis player you get over there and
00:18:23
it's just like it's a completely
00:18:24
different level and uh and yeah I mean
00:18:27
the first three or four weeks that I so
00:18:30
I landed in Slovakia
00:18:32
and just jumped in the deep end in terms
00:18:34
of training I was like sort of six seven
00:18:36
eight hours a day couldn't straighten my
00:18:38
arms for the first like four weeks
00:18:40
because I just never done that sort of
00:18:42
training before and ultimately that was
00:18:44
too much training but yeah man it's it's
00:18:47
I think there's more of an understanding
00:18:49
now in New Zealand the type of work you
00:18:52
have to put in to make it at an
00:18:54
international level but I just had no
00:18:55
idea
00:18:56
wow
00:18:58
um a couple of things first of all I
00:18:59
want to know why you went to boarding
00:19:00
school in Auckland so you're in you're
00:19:02
in um the widered airport why don't you
00:19:04
go to like self-estream or in Wellington
00:19:05
or boys high in palmy purely purely
00:19:09
tennis uh so how do you mean
00:19:12
there were maybe three or four schools
00:19:15
in New Zealand that had a tennis academy
00:19:16
where you could be guaranteed you know
00:19:20
say two to three and a half hours of
00:19:22
tennis training a day uh
00:19:25
two or three of those are in Auckland so
00:19:27
I went to I visited a few
00:19:29
um and went to Saint Kent's for two
00:19:31
years
00:19:33
um and that was good there was a
00:19:34
stepping stone you know it was
00:19:35
definitely an increase in the amount of
00:19:36
training and then ultimately I did my um
00:19:39
I did my last year of school bike
00:19:41
correspondence from from over in
00:19:43
Slovakia and yeah why Slovakia that's
00:19:46
really it seems like a random place to I
00:19:49
mean if you said Florida and you're
00:19:51
going to Nick what's his name yeah like
00:19:53
has a training academy which has
00:19:55
produced so many champions that would
00:19:56
make sense what's in Slovakia not not
00:19:59
much
00:20:00
um yeah so I was working with a Slovak
00:20:03
coach here in New Zealand and he sort of
00:20:05
convinced me that Slovakia would be a
00:20:06
big jump
00:20:08
and yeah I went over there I think I
00:20:10
just turned 17. and he took me to his
00:20:14
hometown which was like a like 50 000
00:20:16
people this little town up in the
00:20:18
mountains in eastern Slovakia and
00:20:20
you know he was the only other person
00:20:22
there that I knew who spoke English and
00:20:24
slovakians apparently one of the hardest
00:20:26
languages in the world to learn it's got
00:20:28
an insane amount of different basically
00:20:30
doesn't have rules for a lot of the
00:20:31
stuff
00:20:33
um
00:20:34
and
00:20:35
it wasn't a step up uh and so after a
00:20:39
few months you know I tried to sort of
00:20:40
get guts it out and you know inherited
00:20:42
some stubbornness from my mother so
00:20:43
didn't really you know admit very
00:20:45
quickly that it wasn't great but then
00:20:48
knew I needed to change so uh moved to
00:20:51
the capital city to Bratislava and
00:20:52
trained it in an academy there and to be
00:20:55
fair like they had a few good tennis
00:20:57
players at the Academy and um yeah
00:21:00
eventually spent I think between two and
00:21:02
three years based out of there and in
00:21:04
hindsight I'd definitely do it
00:21:06
differently like I'd probably go to
00:21:07
college in the states
00:21:08
um or at least pick a country
00:21:11
that was closer in culture to New
00:21:13
Zealand yeah
00:21:14
um yeah it's a lot at that age 17. yeah
00:21:18
and Slovakia was different then too like
00:21:19
it felt very post-communist like it was
00:21:22
it was pretty pretty grim and harsh and
00:21:24
like a very different
00:21:27
attitude towards people in general I
00:21:30
think like the the way I describe it
00:21:32
when I was there was if you bump into
00:21:34
someone by accident on the street in New
00:21:36
Zealand you both apologize right so I'm
00:21:37
sorry
00:21:38
you bump to someone there they yell at
00:21:40
you you know it's like this different
00:21:41
sort of harshness or something
00:21:44
um and I eventually I found it
00:21:46
I felt like my personality was changing
00:21:48
there so I that sort of scared me so I
00:21:50
ended up leaving and and then uh found
00:21:54
the coach that I still work with to this
00:21:56
day uh in in England and was based there
00:21:58
for a long time is that is that Dave
00:21:59
Samwell it is yeah yeah so he um
00:22:02
he he has a phrase called um The
00:22:05
Traveler [ __ ] yeah which I've heard
00:22:07
you talk about on a couple of podcasts
00:22:08
what um how would you describe the
00:22:10
chapel of bullshep
00:22:12
the chapel of [ __ ] is when you
00:22:14
believe your own excuses and you let
00:22:16
them get in your way
00:22:19
where most excuses are [ __ ] and yeah
00:22:24
that's so he just calls you know
00:22:25
worshiping at the chapel of [ __ ] is
00:22:27
just believing your own excuses and and
00:22:29
letting them trip you up and it's so I
00:22:31
mean it it really is I think it's
00:22:34
it's present in every different area of
00:22:37
life and I think in sport it just gets
00:22:40
magnified and you can sort of identify
00:22:42
them more easily
00:22:44
um yeah you know like
00:22:45
and it and it I think
00:22:47
what what
00:22:49
uh conceived the chapel of [ __ ] chat
00:22:52
originally was I think I was playing a
00:22:54
match and it was really close and we
00:22:56
were in the tie breaker and the guy got
00:22:58
a lucky net cord and I lost the point
00:23:01
and I think I turned to Dave and was
00:23:03
like oh man it's not my day
00:23:05
which is absolute [ __ ] right you're
00:23:07
you're in a you're in a tiebreaker which
00:23:09
means your neck and neck and you lose
00:23:11
one point and over the course of a match
00:23:14
okay like there are pressure points and
00:23:16
tipping points and that sort of stuff at
00:23:17
one point you know it doesn't have to
00:23:19
mean that much
00:23:20
and that's I think what set him off and
00:23:23
um yeah it's it's fun it's fun actually
00:23:26
trying to identify these these you know
00:23:28
chaplain [ __ ] moments and yeah
00:23:30
you're smiling when you when you say
00:23:31
that uh does he tear you a new one oh
00:23:34
yeah yeah really so I lost that match
00:23:37
and two tiebreakers and I thought I
00:23:38
played pretty well like I thought I
00:23:40
fought hard
00:23:41
oh it's a close game close game against
00:23:43
the guy who was a lot better rank than
00:23:45
me and so it's a game you should have
00:23:47
lost so you took but that's chaplain
00:23:49
[ __ ] as well okay right like should
00:23:51
should doesn't really exist on the day
00:23:54
anyone could be anyone I'm a good player
00:23:56
on grass we're playing on grass courts
00:23:58
like should doesn't need to factor into
00:24:01
that equation
00:24:03
but so I'd warm down had a shower came
00:24:06
out to chat go over the match you know
00:24:07
it's sort of like a routine after a
00:24:09
match and he was there with his sort of
00:24:12
two IC at the time sat down at the table
00:24:14
and he just like launched into me for
00:24:16
like an hour and a half two hours like
00:24:17
he and when he gets going he can really
00:24:19
go and he's like a he's a big dude too
00:24:22
he's like six five like heavyset guy and
00:24:25
I was I was pretty shocked I think the
00:24:28
the first thing he said to me in that
00:24:29
chat was you are a [ __ ] tourist and
00:24:34
what he meant by that was I thought that
00:24:37
I was trying hard I thought that I was
00:24:38
putting everything into it but because I
00:24:40
was mentally letting these little
00:24:41
excuses sort of Weedle their way into my
00:24:44
brain
00:24:45
if you're not 100 mentally there then
00:24:47
you're not there like you're not trying
00:24:49
100
00:24:51
um if that makes any sense and yeah then
00:24:53
then he went on to the Chapel of
00:24:54
[ __ ] and you know it took me I think
00:24:57
sort of 20 or 30 minutes to
00:25:00
to come around but then so for the first
00:25:03
20 or 30 minutes you're sort of like
00:25:04
arguing throwing points back at him or I
00:25:06
was Defensive yeah like because I felt
00:25:09
like I'd tried hard and then it started
00:25:12
clicking what he was saying that oh yeah
00:25:14
that excuse wasn't necessary or maybe
00:25:17
I'll let that affect me more than I
00:25:18
should have and so you know over the
00:25:21
time I was like okay this this actually
00:25:22
makes sense and it was painful I mean
00:25:24
but but that's the beauty of sport and
00:25:26
how short the feedback loops are right
00:25:28
like you you can do something bad and
00:25:30
you know pretty instantly like that it
00:25:33
was bad and and you can work on
00:25:35
improving it straight away
00:25:37
um so we made an agreement that day that
00:25:41
going forward in training if I switched
00:25:44
off I think the agreement was if I
00:25:45
switched off for three shots in a row it
00:25:48
was either two or three shots in a row
00:25:50
then training over and we'd both agree
00:25:53
on what was a switch off and what wasn't
00:25:55
but for the first week or so I don't
00:25:57
think I made it past like 30 or 40
00:25:59
minutes of training and it was just
00:26:02
the the thing that shocked me and where
00:26:04
I knew that we were on something good
00:26:06
was it was exhausting like I was
00:26:09
exhausted after 30 minutes of training
00:26:11
just like mentally exhausted yeah but
00:26:13
because you're so mentally switched on
00:26:14
it means you do everything physically
00:26:16
better and if you're doing everything
00:26:18
physically better then physically it's
00:26:19
exhausting too like you know you take
00:26:21
those extra sort of three positioning
00:26:23
steps before each shot because that's
00:26:25
what you should do and you're not just
00:26:26
sort of coasting through a training
00:26:27
session so that was really interesting
00:26:30
and then that sort of stamina built up
00:26:33
over the weeks and that was actually the
00:26:35
start of me having more success and
00:26:37
tennis was that conversation so that 90
00:26:40
minute conversation it changed your life
00:26:43
really yeah I would say it it did and I
00:26:46
credit Dave with with most of the
00:26:49
professional success I had in tennis
00:26:51
like I've had a lot of coaches and
00:26:52
mentors
00:26:53
uh who who were a huge help but in terms
00:26:57
of sort of turning a corner at the
00:26:58
professional level then him and you know
00:27:01
the years of work that we put in and
00:27:03
that chat in particular I think really
00:27:05
made a step change yeah let's talk about
00:27:07
some of the um professional success with
00:27:09
the um would you say the bronze at the
00:27:11
last Olympic games from Tokyo as the
00:27:13
like the Pinnacle of your career like
00:27:14
without a doubt yeah yeah leagues ahead
00:27:16
yeah how good so that was the the covert
00:27:19
Olympics it was postponed a year yeah so
00:27:21
you've been to two you went to the Rio
00:27:23
games in 2016 and the Tokyo game so I
00:27:25
suppose you can compare the two so you
00:27:27
had like a normal Olympics and a
00:27:28
pandemic Olympics
00:27:30
um yeah let's go to Rio first so how was
00:27:34
the Olympic experience you're a kid from
00:27:36
masterton at Rio for the [ __ ] Olympic
00:27:38
Games
00:27:39
it's it's such a cop-out to say
00:27:42
Indescribable but it's just like
00:27:44
just like draw on the floor Eyes Wide
00:27:47
Open
00:27:48
and it was Mike Venus's first Olympics
00:27:51
as well and we were just like we had
00:27:53
bikes in Rio which is like biking around
00:27:55
the village just like looking at
00:27:56
everyone you're a [ __ ] tourist yeah
00:27:58
yeah absolutely we're terrorists and I
00:28:01
would say it wasn't a normal Olympics in
00:28:03
Rio either because there was the whole
00:28:04
zika virus here then so you know there
00:28:06
was a bit of fear in the air
00:28:09
uh the the Olympic Village was um
00:28:14
was put together so the last minute you
00:28:16
know had you had buildings that were
00:28:17
sort of malfunctioning one guy uh one
00:28:20
Martin del Potro
00:28:22
um he was playing like a quarterfinal
00:28:24
against Djokovic or something and his
00:28:27
elevator broke down in his building so
00:28:28
he's like stuck in the elevator for an
00:28:30
hour and a half so and oh actually one
00:28:33
time I remember uh there were really
00:28:35
high winds and and we were Mike and I
00:28:37
were eating lunch in the in the food
00:28:39
area and heard this huge smash it's like
00:28:43
I think it was one of the biggest tents
00:28:45
in the world and uh and this big slab of
00:28:49
plaster had fallen down from the roof
00:28:52
like 30 40 meters overhead just in front
00:28:54
of the door like two meters away from a
00:28:56
group that had just walked in because of
00:28:58
the wind and so there was stuff like
00:29:00
that going on at Rio where
00:29:02
yeah you don't think of that as like the
00:29:05
Olympic sort of standard you had like
00:29:07
big signs like windmilling over the
00:29:09
Olympics like it was it was pretty funny
00:29:12
but um
00:29:13
but yeah the atmosphere there was really
00:29:15
cool and do you see anyone of um anyone
00:29:19
of note are you saying bolt or I mean do
00:29:22
you get photos with anyone was it are
00:29:24
you too cool to do that no it wasn't too
00:29:27
cool I just felt sorry for them like
00:29:28
yeah yeah yeah saw Usain Bolt um one
00:29:32
thing that actually really surprised me
00:29:33
in Rio was
00:29:35
so there's like Usain Bolt who's he's
00:29:37
just the Godfather of Olympics right
00:29:39
he's like
00:29:40
Super Famous but then actually the the
00:29:43
ones who had the most attention with the
00:29:45
tennis players behind that so uh Andy
00:29:47
Murray was in the Olympic Village
00:29:48
Djokovic was there uh I remember sitting
00:29:52
at the same table as the William sisters
00:29:53
and they just couldn't eat lunch like
00:29:54
wow eventually they they actually just
00:29:57
like tossed their lunch and left because
00:29:59
they were just there was just a crowd
00:30:01
wanting selfies every every 20 seconds I
00:30:03
felt really sorry for them like
00:30:04
everyone's been doing a job ultimately
00:30:06
right yeah and you think if there's one
00:30:07
place that as an athlete you can sort of
00:30:09
relax and like be amongst your peers and
00:30:12
just be there it would be the Olympics
00:30:14
but I guess because sports are so
00:30:16
segregated most of the time
00:30:18
people don't see the other you know
00:30:21
famous athletes from different codes
00:30:22
that often so it still is a big deal but
00:30:25
but yeah it was like it's
00:30:28
it's a it's an outrageously special
00:30:32
environment particularly in the New
00:30:35
Zealand's team because there's all of
00:30:38
the
00:30:39
all of the culture and the Mana that
00:30:41
they bring with them and all the hackers
00:30:42
to to be welcomed to the building and
00:30:45
and you know like you you select a
00:30:48
greenstone medallion when you arrive and
00:30:50
it's all cut from one piece of rock it's
00:30:52
like we're all part of the same team and
00:30:54
that sort of stuff which
00:30:56
on tour you you're most often playing
00:30:58
for yourself you have your country name
00:30:59
next to you but it's like it's pretty
00:31:01
individual so to go from such an
00:31:03
individual world into something that
00:31:05
felt so team oriented that like it gives
00:31:08
me goosebumps man it's it's so cool
00:31:10
that's really cool and I mean you've
00:31:11
been to two uh Olympics and you've got a
00:31:13
medal to
00:31:14
um show for it most people wouldn't end
00:31:16
up with a middle so I suppose just being
00:31:18
there and soaking it up and getting that
00:31:19
greenstone Medallion that's uh yeah
00:31:21
that's what it's all about yeah or
00:31:23
already that special and in Rio Mike and
00:31:26
I actually we had match points in the
00:31:28
first round and lost
00:31:30
um to a team that I think ended up
00:31:31
playing for bronze and we were gutted
00:31:34
and it was always it was spoken like we
00:31:38
spoke to each other about it pretty soon
00:31:40
after like we have to come back and we
00:31:41
have to do better so even in Tokyo just
00:31:44
getting the first round win
00:31:46
even that was just like a huge weight
00:31:48
off my shoulders like okay you know now
00:31:51
have had some success at the Olympics
00:31:52
and and won't walk away from the whole
00:31:54
Olympic experience having had match
00:31:56
points and lost
00:31:57
um and then
00:31:59
you know coming away with some some
00:32:03
iron around the neck like that yeah it's
00:32:06
it was emotional stuff yeah how good how
00:32:09
good so yeah so that was a bronze at the
00:32:11
um the 2020 2021 games they were held on
00:32:14
though
00:32:15
um what an experience
00:32:18
I mean it's where is that now
00:32:21
it's uh they're not being a bloody
00:32:23
drawer it's not in a drawer
00:32:25
there's maybe the equivalent of a draw
00:32:27
it's it's I have a little bag that has
00:32:29
sort of you know the memorabilia from
00:32:31
that games you know like a sort of
00:32:33
Japanese
00:32:34
fan with the New Zealand team logo on it
00:32:37
and it's one of the cool
00:32:39
um bits of culture at the Olympics is
00:32:42
you sort of exchange little pins with
00:32:45
with other nations and other athletes
00:32:46
and so you're all the pins from the
00:32:48
different nations
00:32:49
and yeah I'm thinking I haven't got
00:32:52
around to it yet but it would be a
00:32:53
pretty cool thing to get framed at some
00:32:55
stage oh 100 so you're hoping to go to
00:32:58
the next ones right in Paris I'm hoping
00:33:00
is that the plan yeah
00:33:02
and will that still be um playing
00:33:04
doubles with Michael Venus yeah that's
00:33:06
the only option yeah I'd have uh I've
00:33:09
never been at a singles ranking where
00:33:10
I'd qualify for the Olympics and why
00:33:12
can't you um so this might be a really
00:33:14
dumb question but I don't know I'm
00:33:16
guessing there's a lot of people
00:33:17
listening that won't know either
00:33:19
um why are you so much better at doubles
00:33:21
than singles tennis is tennis right
00:33:24
yes and no so I think the best singles
00:33:27
players in the world if they turned
00:33:29
their focus to doubles would be very
00:33:30
very good doubles players but the skill
00:33:32
set is a little bit different so
00:33:35
I like to think that if I'd been born 30
00:33:38
years earlier I would have been a really
00:33:40
good singles player because my my
00:33:42
natural Talent is more with volleys and
00:33:45
and sort of feel around the net and and
00:33:47
being sort of at the front of the court
00:33:49
but with the way Technology's changed
00:33:52
over the last few decades the game has
00:33:53
slowed down a huge amount
00:33:55
serving as less meaningful
00:33:57
um and yeah netplay has has become less
00:34:02
attacking like because the courts are
00:34:04
slower it's harder to put the ball away
00:34:05
and people on the Baseline have more of
00:34:07
a chance to pass you so
00:34:10
these days that sort of skill set is
00:34:12
much more suited to doubles where you
00:34:14
know you hit a lot more volleys the
00:34:15
serve has more of an impact
00:34:18
um and I guess like to be quite Frank uh
00:34:21
the level at the top of the singles game
00:34:23
like it's harder to make top 50 in
00:34:25
singles than it is to make top 50 on
00:34:27
doubles I think there's there's more
00:34:28
depth there are more people who dream of
00:34:30
being top singles players and top
00:34:31
doubles players although even over the
00:34:34
last sort of 10 years that's actually
00:34:36
shifting like doubles is getting a lot
00:34:38
harder as we go yeah and so you and
00:34:40
Michael Venus how did that partnership
00:34:42
start
00:34:43
uh did you guys know each other growing
00:34:45
up going through yeah yeah yeah yeah he
00:34:48
um did you hate each other initially was
00:34:49
he like your fiercest rival no so he's I
00:34:52
think
00:34:53
um maybe almost two years older than me
00:34:55
so he he was more my brother I think he
00:34:58
was young for my brother's age group and
00:35:01
I don't think he'll mind me saying this
00:35:02
he was known as the Loose Cannon of that
00:35:04
age group he was he was Psycho when he
00:35:07
was younger like cheers over the fence
00:35:09
like matches
00:35:12
like like Nick kyrgios but but
00:35:16
there was no sulkiness to it it was more
00:35:19
just like rage
00:35:24
and he's found ways over time to sort of
00:35:28
Channel it but uh it's still sometimes
00:35:30
there like I remember Mike's got
00:35:32
unbelievable energy
00:35:35
um I remember playing at Davis so we we
00:35:37
first uh started playing together at
00:35:39
Davis Cup like when we come together to
00:35:41
represent the country
00:35:42
I remember playing against the
00:35:44
Philippines
00:35:45
in Cebu this island in the Philippines
00:35:48
it was the final match of the tire two
00:35:50
it was two matches all so it was a
00:35:52
deciding match and the winner of this
00:35:55
tie would get promoted to a higher group
00:35:57
and it was like three o'clock in the
00:36:00
morning so it'd been a long day and
00:36:03
there is there are two kiwi fans in the
00:36:06
crowd of probably like 2 000 around this
00:36:08
court and the Filipino crowd were being
00:36:11
intense that night as well
00:36:13
and he goes two sets to love down
00:36:17
starts coming back
00:36:19
it's the muggiest conditions I've ever
00:36:21
come across so like you know you're
00:36:23
changing shirts every sort of two or
00:36:25
three games and he wins the fourth set
00:36:28
so sends it to a decider
00:36:30
and I don't know where he got this
00:36:32
energy from but he just started jumping
00:36:34
up and down like a kangaroo and he did
00:36:36
it the whole fifth set for like an hour
00:36:38
he did he didn't sit down at the change
00:36:40
of ends he just kept jumping and I don't
00:36:42
know where it came from but he like saw
00:36:43
his opponent was flagging and just
00:36:45
channeled all of his like inner rage
00:36:47
energy into jumping like a kangaroo won
00:36:50
the fifth set sixth level something like
00:36:51
that and was just an absolute hero that
00:36:53
night so yeah that's he's found a way to
00:36:57
channel whatever energy he has inside
00:37:00
him into into positive energy these days
00:37:02
so good for him I suppose a relationship
00:37:04
like that especially like a
00:37:05
long-standing one it comes with its own
00:37:07
sort of um you know Dynamics and nuances
00:37:09
and stuff like do you do if things are
00:37:11
getting getting you know touchy with
00:37:13
with each other do you know to give each
00:37:14
other a bit of space or like how do you
00:37:16
manage are you quite good at
00:37:17
communicating if if there's something
00:37:19
bothering you or something bothering him
00:37:20
you know what that I think this was
00:37:23
actually one of the keys to us doing
00:37:24
well in Tokyo was we actually
00:37:27
we sat down when we first got to Tokyo
00:37:30
and said how are we going to make this
00:37:33
campaign a success and we actually met
00:37:36
with Jason McKenzie one of the New
00:37:39
Zealand Sports psychologists there and
00:37:41
said hey look like
00:37:42
we're really serious about doing well
00:37:44
here
00:37:45
um we want to know each other better we
00:37:48
want to know how to communicate how to
00:37:50
help each other in pressure moments and
00:37:52
we had quite a few conversations during
00:37:53
during the sort of 10 days two weeks
00:37:56
before we started playing in Tokyo and
00:37:59
it was that was amazing and then the
00:38:02
other thing that happened
00:38:03
um
00:38:04
we got absolutely pounded in the
00:38:06
semi-finals at the Olympics uh we lost
00:38:09
six two six two against the creation
00:38:11
team that
00:38:12
they were on fire but we we didn't even
00:38:15
get a foot in the door like we didn't we
00:38:17
didn't put up a fight in that match and
00:38:18
it felt terrible and
00:38:21
we went straight from that match to the
00:38:23
practice court and
00:38:25
we're out there for I don't know two
00:38:27
hours two and a half hours just like
00:38:28
talking things through talking through
00:38:31
what would happen if the same situation
00:38:33
came up the next day playing for bronze
00:38:35
and it's that sort of communication and
00:38:37
that sort of like
00:38:38
vulnerability and openness to like what
00:38:42
was going through your own head and like
00:38:45
if you're open with that then maybe your
00:38:46
partner can help you you know like
00:38:49
even admitting like hey I'm a bit
00:38:51
nervous you don't want to do that like
00:38:53
you want to pretend that now you're
00:38:55
ready like you're ready to go yeah but
00:38:58
if you admit it then your partner's got
00:39:00
a chance to talk you through it and and
00:39:01
you know maybe you get a better outcome
00:39:03
out the back so
00:39:05
the the way that Mike and I communicated
00:39:07
during Tokyo um
00:39:09
it was really cool just even if the
00:39:11
result didn't come out of it it was I
00:39:12
think a good way to go about it but then
00:39:14
I actually really do think it helped
00:39:15
results-wise yeah so you you never you
00:39:18
never blame each other or if if you do
00:39:21
do you keep it to yourself like if you
00:39:22
know if you're if you're having the game
00:39:23
of your life in the Heat and he's making
00:39:25
some unforced errors or whatever you you
00:39:27
know you just keep that to yourself for
00:39:29
yeah blame blame is toxic like
00:39:33
if you're having a crappy match you know
00:39:35
like on court if everyone knows there's
00:39:39
no way to hide yeah there's nowhere to
00:39:40
hide and
00:39:42
most of the time you know with because
00:39:45
Mike and I are both pretty open like
00:39:47
we'll acknowledge it on court be like
00:39:48
you know be apologizing if we make a bad
00:39:50
mistake or that sort of thing and then
00:39:52
it's the partner's job to say mate no
00:39:54
apologies uh we're here to win let's
00:39:56
just do the best of what we've got today
00:39:57
and there are ways you can sort of push
00:39:59
yourself through that and it's all just
00:40:01
part of the process of being
00:40:02
professional I think actually what
00:40:04
professionals do better than or you know
00:40:06
like as you go up the ranks what what
00:40:09
athletes do better is
00:40:12
acknowledging that something's off and
00:40:15
as quickly as possible figuring out the
00:40:17
process of either minimizing the damage
00:40:19
from that or working through it so
00:40:21
that's not a weakness anymore and
00:40:23
actually I think that's that's the thing
00:40:25
that I have the most admiration for with
00:40:27
you know the legends of the game is man
00:40:29
they figure things out so quickly if if
00:40:31
something's off and that's why it seems
00:40:34
like they hardly ever have a bad day
00:40:36
when you talk about the legends of the
00:40:37
game who do you mean like Rafa Fedora
00:40:39
Rafa Roger Novak yeah yeah even yeah
00:40:43
Andy Murray I'd put in that cam have you
00:40:45
ever played any of those guys
00:40:47
yeah uh
00:40:49
yeah I played I played
00:40:52
djokovico at Queens a number of years
00:40:54
ago I've never played against
00:40:57
Mario ruffa trained with Andy and
00:41:01
warmed up Federer one time and I I sat
00:41:05
on the there's a thing called the ATP
00:41:06
player Council
00:41:07
um I sat on the council with Rafa Roger
00:41:10
and Andy for a couple of years so sort
00:41:12
of got you know got to see inside their
00:41:13
head and and get to know them a little
00:41:15
bit which was really cool but
00:41:17
um yeah they they don't often play
00:41:19
doubles so yeah what's how did you get
00:41:22
on against Novak we won yeah really yeah
00:41:25
amazing yeah it must be satisfying it
00:41:28
was we should we should have won more
00:41:30
easily as well I think we both got a
00:41:31
little bit tight because we're about to
00:41:33
be you know one of the best players ever
00:41:34
but um one of the most crowded doubles
00:41:38
matches I've played as well
00:41:39
um yeah for those something like Novak
00:41:42
like when when someone beats them and he
00:41:44
must just get a little bit of Joy seeing
00:41:46
the excitement on their face like holy
00:41:47
[ __ ] nah man he's a competitor he's a
00:41:50
competitor through and through yeah he
00:41:52
was not happy
00:41:53
Stan had just lost a big three-setter in
00:41:57
singles and his I think his brain was
00:41:59
wavering a bit but
00:42:01
you know I'll take it oh 100 any day and
00:42:06
so um this might be another dumb
00:42:07
question but so so say say you're a
00:42:10
singles ranked player of I don't know
00:42:12
like 500. what's the difference between
00:42:14
say 500 from the world and and best in
00:42:16
the world or top 10 in the world like uh
00:42:18
can you still like when the occasional
00:42:20
set off those guys like as I suppose
00:42:22
what I'm asking is is the difference
00:42:24
incremental and how you play on the day
00:42:26
or is it just as Worlds Apart it's not
00:42:28
Worlds Apart at all so
00:42:31
I'd say so I'd say there's a difference
00:42:34
between the difference between 500 and
00:42:37
say 50 is Tiny
00:42:39
most people in that range would hit the
00:42:42
ball about the same pace and spin and
00:42:45
everything
00:42:46
as you get closer to 50 there'll be a
00:42:48
bit more consistency in terms of
00:42:50
placement uh but most of that is mental
00:42:53
rather than technical
00:42:55
and then when you go from 50 up to sort
00:42:57
of 10 then it I think there's a big
00:43:00
mental leap there as well and when I say
00:43:02
mental it's not just uh you know how
00:43:05
tough you are in pressure moments it's
00:43:06
like self-belief it's like do you feel
00:43:09
like you belong at that level I mean one
00:43:11
thing I struggled with at every level
00:43:13
going up was you know [ __ ] I'm from a
00:43:14
farm in New Zealand what what am I doing
00:43:16
at this tournament almost like an
00:43:18
imposter syndrome in a way absolutely
00:43:19
yeah and and actually that comes back to
00:43:21
tall poppy syndrome like you know watch
00:43:24
this little kid from what it up are
00:43:25
doing it on this stage
00:43:27
um and that's hard to get through and I
00:43:29
think most people to some degree have
00:43:31
that so they have to work through that
00:43:32
at each level and the people who raise
00:43:35
young
00:43:36
I think they've got like that switch
00:43:38
turned off in their brain I mean you
00:43:40
know off the top of my head guys like
00:43:41
kyrgios zverev Bernard Tomac even like
00:43:45
they're just Fearless like and there's
00:43:47
there's arrogance there but it's like
00:43:49
it's almost natural arrogance it's like
00:43:51
they they don't have to force it they're
00:43:53
just like yeah of course I'm going to
00:43:54
beat Roger at Wimbledon when I'm 16
00:43:56
because why wouldn't I I'm curious you
00:43:58
know
00:44:00
um but then when you go from
00:44:02
like 50 to 10 there's there's
00:44:05
to be top 10
00:44:07
you're a freak like you're not just a
00:44:10
freak physically and
00:44:13
by that I mean not only are you
00:44:15
outrageously physical and talented but
00:44:18
you're also very very robust like the
00:44:21
stresses that you put on your body and
00:44:22
in the top ten of singles is absolutely
00:44:24
nuts yeah but then the consistency that
00:44:27
you have to have mentally weaken week
00:44:29
out day in day out if you're top 10
00:44:31
you've got a huge Target on your back
00:44:32
and everyone who plays against you in
00:44:34
the early rounds of a tournament that
00:44:36
will be one of the biggest wins of their
00:44:37
life you know you have like
00:44:39
it's a stat for every player how many
00:44:41
top 10 wins do you have so you're like
00:44:44
their scalp that they want to take so
00:44:46
you have to be on your game every single
00:44:47
day and that's yeah that's
00:44:51
the the mental fortitude that those guys
00:44:53
have it's uh
00:44:54
it's it's scary to me well since
00:44:57
speaking of that so you've got a BA in
00:44:59
psychology has that sort of helped with
00:45:00
your tennis game
00:45:02
like I wish I could say yes
00:45:05
nothing in like in terms of like reading
00:45:07
opponents or maybe it's just helped me
00:45:09
realize how messed up I am myself
00:45:14
yeah
00:45:15
because at least part of it it's got a
00:45:16
curiosity about um psychology I'd love
00:45:18
to do papers but yeah the same reason
00:45:19
I'll be like no I I don't know if I want
00:45:22
to lift a little lid and look into
00:45:24
myself that much yeah I think like
00:45:28
honestly I think uh the
00:45:31
being in the sport and thinking about it
00:45:34
and talking with a coach about it you
00:45:35
learn far more about
00:45:38
your particular area of psychology like
00:45:41
sports psychology test psychology then
00:45:43
I'd ever learn in a ba
00:45:45
um
00:45:46
and I think
00:45:48
I think you know different things work
00:45:50
for different people so it's more of a
00:45:53
figure out what works for me and that's
00:45:55
a trial and error process rather than
00:45:57
do a few papers and it's like okay I can
00:45:59
apply all this Theory to myself it's
00:46:01
yeah I think it's a little bit messier
00:46:03
than that yeah
00:46:04
um have you ever read um agassi's book
00:46:06
open
00:46:07
yeah one of the one of the greatest
00:46:10
sports books of all time unbelievable
00:46:12
and so good yeah what's um
00:46:14
so yeah in that in that book he
00:46:17
was going to say it's a love hate
00:46:18
relationship with tennis but it's almost
00:46:19
a hate relationship like his dad made
00:46:22
him play at a young age and he sort of
00:46:23
loathes the sport has your love for the
00:46:26
sport wave but over the years or is it
00:46:28
just just love for tennis
00:46:30
no it's definitely wavered yeah I would
00:46:33
say I
00:46:35
I hesitate to believe the hate like yeah
00:46:39
he's still involved yeah he he hasn't
00:46:41
needed to be involved in tennis
00:46:43
for decades but he's still part of it
00:46:47
he's still part of the scene and stuff
00:46:48
so you know
00:46:50
I understand the hate part like it's it
00:46:53
it smashes you but uh man it's given him
00:46:56
so much and for me definitely like there
00:46:59
are a couple of times that I came really
00:47:00
close to quitting
00:47:02
um you know we were speaking earlier
00:47:05
you lose you you fail in tennis pretty
00:47:08
much every week like unless you're
00:47:10
winning a tournament it means you've
00:47:11
lost and
00:47:13
I've won five ATP titles in my career
00:47:17
and I think I played at the top level
00:47:19
so far for I don't know seven or eight
00:47:21
years so that's less than one sort of
00:47:24
top level title per year and that means
00:47:27
that I've had years where I've failed
00:47:28
every single week maybe I've won a
00:47:30
challenge a title but you know that as
00:47:32
you go up the rankings that means a
00:47:33
little less so dealing with that and you
00:47:38
know dealing with the sort of
00:47:40
all of those emotions of like I'm not
00:47:42
good enough what's wrong with me all
00:47:43
that sort of stuff I guess
00:47:46
it's it's incredibly difficult
00:47:49
and I also think it's the most valuable
00:47:51
lesson tennis can teach you because if
00:47:54
you can deal with that stuff like I just
00:47:56
feel like it arms you pretty well for
00:47:57
whatever comes to life yeah how do you
00:48:00
deal with that
00:48:03
it's it's hard it's hard to think in
00:48:05
outside of cliches with this stuff like
00:48:08
you know there are always learning
00:48:10
opportunities and failure and there are
00:48:11
usually more learning opportunities when
00:48:13
you fail than when you succeed and I
00:48:15
think that's so true yeah it's like it's
00:48:17
sort of a
00:48:21
it's like a enough of a shock that it
00:48:23
forces you to examine it and I think
00:48:25
some people some people work best with
00:48:28
being like okay I had a bad day move on
00:48:29
but I've always been of the type that's
00:48:31
like what did I do wrong why did I do it
00:48:34
wrong and and how could I improve it
00:48:36
um and that's you know you Wade through
00:48:38
the mud
00:48:40
um especially if you play a bad game
00:48:42
like you you know it takes some time to
00:48:44
sort of process yeah and deal with the
00:48:46
fact that you you didn't live up to your
00:48:47
own expectations
00:48:49
um
00:48:51
but that's yeah I think that's actually
00:48:52
that's part of the beauty of sport is
00:48:56
you know I actually the guy that that I
00:49:00
run home-backed athletes with Hugo
00:49:01
Engels this this is one of his phrases
00:49:04
but it's like you know sport takes you
00:49:07
from the ones to the tens just like sort
00:49:10
of week to week and I think
00:49:12
there aren't that many other areas of
00:49:14
life where you
00:49:15
experience those extremes of high and
00:49:18
low emotion so frequently and
00:49:22
it's hard but there's also it's pretty
00:49:24
cool you know like
00:49:26
experiencing the tens is amazing but
00:49:28
also experiencing the ones that you need
00:49:30
that for contrast and and it's kind of
00:49:32
like life really isn't it yeah yeah like
00:49:34
you need the lows to appreciate the
00:49:37
highs of course yeah yeah it's like life
00:49:39
there's highest lows and then just a
00:49:41
whole lot of nothingness
00:49:43
a whole lot of airports
00:49:46
um yeah how's your I mean like mentally
00:49:48
it's got a physically it's a tough game
00:49:49
like uh that's one takeaway from the
00:49:51
Agassi book open it's like he's in agony
00:49:54
um back issues all sorts but mentally
00:49:57
tough game as well do you have you seen
00:50:00
the the Maori fish do you know Marty
00:50:02
fish or you've seen the documentary on
00:50:03
Netflix I've seen the documentary I
00:50:05
don't know him personally so um the 2012
00:50:07
US Open he had anxiety and pulled out of
00:50:09
his um fourth round match with Roger
00:50:11
Federer like uh like Forfeit of the game
00:50:13
like just before he was about to go on
00:50:14
because he was having a having a panic
00:50:15
attack how's how's your um like mental
00:50:18
state been over the years
00:50:20
yeah I think
00:50:22
I think I've been really lucky honestly
00:50:25
um you know I talk about this with my
00:50:27
wife quite a lot uh
00:50:31
yeah I think
00:50:33
partly I think I've been lucky
00:50:35
genetically I think uh
00:50:38
yeah this is an interesting interesting
00:50:41
one because I think I'm lucky
00:50:42
genetically because I feel like despite
00:50:45
experiencing lows and I think I've
00:50:47
probably had a few patches of depression
00:50:48
in my life
00:50:50
I never feel helpless I always feel like
00:50:53
this is a low patch I'm really
00:50:55
struggling
00:50:56
but I don't think it's going to last
00:50:58
yeah type thing it's a circumstantial
00:51:01
depression like you've got a reason to
00:51:02
be depressed or yeah yeah yeah it's
00:51:05
usually like
00:51:06
injury you know I've had
00:51:08
far too long with injury yeah um even
00:51:11
you know
00:51:12
yeah the the last week actually of a um
00:51:16
I was struggling about you know I had a
00:51:18
second surgery on my knee and and
00:51:20
actually feel like the surgery went
00:51:22
really well but you know I haven't been
00:51:24
able to really be active and I find a
00:51:25
lot of joy in being active in my
00:51:27
day-to-day life and and then I was sort
00:51:29
of sort of getting to a stage where I
00:51:31
felt like I could start being more
00:51:32
active day to day and then I had to get
00:51:34
this this little benign growth thing cut
00:51:37
out of my back so it's like another week
00:51:39
where I got stitches in my back and and
00:51:41
can't you know not really allowed to
00:51:43
sweat and it's just really struggling
00:51:45
like you know like this Joy Giver of
00:51:47
being able to be out and about and get
00:51:49
sunshine and and you know get the
00:51:51
endorphins flowing so
00:51:53
yeah I like I do think I've experienced
00:51:56
depression
00:51:58
but
00:51:59
I think I'm probably luckier than most
00:52:01
in that
00:52:02
uh
00:52:03
whether it's through nature or nurture
00:52:07
I feel like I have a bit of perspective
00:52:08
on it when it happens
00:52:10
um early covert was another situation A
00:52:12
oh where were you were you in New
00:52:14
Zealand were you I was here when it all
00:52:16
kicked off but my wife so we were
00:52:18
actually based in New York at the time
00:52:19
and she was working for a law firm now
00:52:23
and I was here playing Davis Cup
00:52:26
and New Zealand was going to shut down
00:52:28
and it was like okay what do we do like
00:52:30
we're in different countries that's
00:52:31
right he was a mad rush home it's like
00:52:33
everything yeah hard to get flights even
00:52:35
yeah and I was thinking well [ __ ] if I
00:52:37
if I don't leave New Zealand now maybe I
00:52:41
won't be able to and win one XE may
00:52:43
actually she was she was my girlfriend
00:52:45
at the time
00:52:47
um and so I chose to go over there
00:52:50
and
00:52:51
so I flew over but didn't really have
00:52:53
anything to do
00:52:55
um you know the tour stopped she was
00:52:57
working ridiculous hours for that law
00:52:59
firm like you know sort of 16 17 hours a
00:53:00
day so didn't really see her that much
00:53:03
um and it was winter in in Northern
00:53:04
Connecticut and
00:53:06
went through a really dark patch of uh
00:53:09
just sort of purposelessness and and
00:53:11
um
00:53:12
yeah waking up and being like
00:53:15
another grade day like what am I doing
00:53:18
with my life and But ultimately you know
00:53:20
another like that was probably the
00:53:22
longest patch of depression I feel like
00:53:23
I've had but ultimately ultimately it
00:53:25
led to a lot of self-reflection and and
00:53:27
then led to high impact athletes like
00:53:28
okay well how do I want to act in the
00:53:30
world how do I want to live in the world
00:53:31
and and that was sort of what led to the
00:53:33
conception of hia so
00:53:35
I mean yeah really long-winded answer
00:53:37
but I I've definitely been through low
00:53:38
patches but I think
00:53:40
firstly with I think a little bit of
00:53:42
luck genetically and secondly with you
00:53:44
know having having the resources with a
00:53:46
coach that I could speak to when I'm
00:53:47
feeling really down uh more recently to
00:53:49
to have access to some of the sport New
00:53:52
Zealand Sikes and and being able to have
00:53:54
those sorts of chats like I feel really
00:53:55
lucky with
00:53:57
with you with how being able to deal
00:53:58
with with those sorts of things yeah
00:54:00
you're quite good at talking about
00:54:01
things
00:54:02
you're quite good at being open and
00:54:03
vulnerable
00:54:04
I think so the the thing that the thing
00:54:07
that I wonder is
00:54:09
even now I'm wondering you know saying
00:54:12
like I think I'm lucky
00:54:13
I wonder if that's a little bit of the
00:54:15
Kiwi play it down like you know like
00:54:19
cover it up sort of stuff and whether if
00:54:22
if somehow this show was lifted off that
00:54:25
maybe there'd be more there that I just
00:54:27
haven't allowed myself to access like
00:54:29
it's one one thing that actually
00:54:31
I kept myself for a long time
00:54:33
um when I was in Slovakia I got pretty
00:54:36
badly beaten up by by a few guys uh I
00:54:39
was on a night out with it with a group
00:54:40
of friends and just went outside for a
00:54:42
bit of fresh air and got like bottled
00:54:44
from behind and
00:54:45
um so yes like 17 18. I think I was yeah
00:54:48
maybe like just before I turned 18
00:54:50
around round 18. and got beaten up badly
00:54:54
like you know bottle from behind kicked
00:54:57
on the ground tried to like manage to
00:54:58
get up tried to swing my way out of it
00:55:00
but they they got me down again
00:55:02
basically kicked me unconscious and
00:55:06
I I was lucky like you know stitches
00:55:09
stitches in the back of my head like a
00:55:10
under my eye and stuff
00:55:13
um
00:55:14
and outside of that you know like didn't
00:55:17
have any like permanent injuries
00:55:20
but
00:55:22
I I never sort of acknowledged it really
00:55:25
uh I'm I managed to convince so you know
00:55:30
I had to get some brain scans and stuff
00:55:31
because I was pretty shaken up uh and it
00:55:34
cost quite a lot I managed to convince
00:55:36
the insurance company because I was
00:55:38
under my parents health insurance
00:55:39
medical insurance or whatever it was
00:55:42
managed to convince them to say to my
00:55:44
parents that I'd fallen down the stairs
00:55:45
and like tripped over a dog
00:55:47
um why because you didn't want them to
00:55:48
worry because I didn't want them to
00:55:49
worry and I just you know like I was on
00:55:51
this path of like trying to be a tennis
00:55:52
player and I thought my mum would say
00:55:54
well that's it you know you're coming
00:55:55
home this is two dangerous type stuff
00:55:57
and and so just like took me a couple of
00:56:00
weeks to recover before I could start
00:56:01
training again but just sort of okay
00:56:03
that happened I'm not gonna go to that
00:56:05
place again and sort of lay low
00:56:07
uh and then I just carried on and that
00:56:11
sort of stuff talking about with my La
00:56:13
my wife like you know over a decade
00:56:15
later
00:56:16
who has a lot of experience with therapy
00:56:18
and and really believes in it and in its
00:56:21
power to to help people
00:56:22
and you know it sort of gets me thinking
00:56:25
well what have I buried what have I just
00:56:27
sort of said okay well that's that's
00:56:28
done I've dealt with it I'm gonna move
00:56:31
on but you know what's what's covered up
00:56:33
and
00:56:35
yeah I just I just don't know I don't
00:56:36
know if I'm
00:56:38
if I've actually been able to deal with
00:56:40
those things because I feel like I have
00:56:41
but um who knows yeah well the fact that
00:56:45
you can talk about it so openly I think
00:56:46
that's uh I mean it says you haven't
00:56:49
like buried at all necessarily
00:56:50
compartmentalize it I know I think
00:56:52
that's a good thing where you you say
00:56:53
your wife's running to therapy is that
00:56:55
um just the Americans that are psyche I
00:56:58
think partly yeah um
00:57:00
you know like she's her family I think
00:57:03
we're we're on the other end of the
00:57:05
Spectrum in terms of bad luck in terms
00:57:07
of um
00:57:08
you know like generational family
00:57:10
history of addiction and and that sort
00:57:12
of stuff and uh
00:57:14
I know she's she's struggled with with
00:57:16
bouts of depression in her life and
00:57:18
anxiety and um
00:57:21
has done a huge amount of work
00:57:22
personally uh you know she's she's
00:57:26
been doing yoga
00:57:28
at a very deep level and by that I mean
00:57:30
you know like beyond the physical
00:57:32
movement you know going deep into the
00:57:34
the spirituality and the sort of that
00:57:36
side of it for probably about 15 years
00:57:38
now and
00:57:40
as a meditation teacher and you know
00:57:41
meditates every day and and is
00:57:43
constantly doing work on trying to keep
00:57:46
herself level and and that sort of stuff
00:57:49
and it's
00:57:50
it's it's pretty cool to see like you
00:57:53
know she's she's using the tools that
00:57:55
she feels best to to
00:57:57
better her own life and um
00:57:59
and therapy is just another one of those
00:58:01
tools for her it's cool because I don't
00:58:03
think there's a like a one-size-fits all
00:58:04
layer I think but I think you need to
00:58:05
work out what's right for you in terms
00:58:07
of you know your mental health and your
00:58:08
happiness and your resilience and take
00:58:10
it from there are you do you think
00:58:12
you're a naturally resilient person or
00:58:13
do you think you've built resilience
00:58:15
over the years with um tennis and
00:58:17
everything else
00:58:18
I'd say it's a bit of both yeah I think
00:58:20
you know both my parents come from
00:58:22
generations of farmers and I think
00:58:24
there's
00:58:26
maybe it's a generalization there but I
00:58:27
think there's a natural resilience there
00:58:29
or just like a get on with it and that
00:58:31
sort of thing which could be good or bad
00:58:32
yeah um
00:58:36
but yeah I mean you have to learn
00:58:38
resilience in tennis the whole failure
00:58:40
thing if you can't if you can't learn to
00:58:43
deal with bad times then you can't be a
00:58:45
tennis player and I'm actually one thing
00:58:48
I'm interested in so I've I've listened
00:58:51
to a few of your podcasts and you you
00:58:52
talk about your own therapy is this
00:58:54
something that you
00:58:56
do you have a regular
00:58:58
a regular practice with therapy or is it
00:59:01
something that you turn to when you feel
00:59:02
like you need it yeah I haven't been in
00:59:04
a couple of years
00:59:05
um but I'm actually finding this podcast
00:59:07
and these conversations kind of like
00:59:09
therapy in a way but I am I put off
00:59:11
going for I never went until I was like
00:59:13
mid 40s and um I don't know why but I
00:59:16
was [ __ ] scared of going I was like I
00:59:18
suppose you know part of its fear of
00:59:20
what they're going to find part of it is
00:59:23
like sitting with a stranger and being
00:59:25
like completely open and honest and
00:59:27
vulnerable it's it's uh you don't know
00:59:29
where to start and I went in for that
00:59:31
first session because I was like I need
00:59:32
to sort my [ __ ] [ __ ] out so I went in
00:59:34
and sat down and then you you know you
00:59:36
I left an hour later and it was like a
00:59:38
personal trainer for your head and it
00:59:40
makes perfect sense like they're trained
00:59:41
and they're going to make it easy yeah
00:59:43
so it's not like I had to sit there and
00:59:44
go right back to the very beginning of
00:59:46
my life yeah so I I found it I I was
00:59:49
actually mad with myself and embarrassed
00:59:51
actually when I left that first session
00:59:52
because it's something that I needed and
00:59:54
I've put off for years and years and
00:59:56
years and it was just dumb yeah dumb
00:59:59
um but it's really good I'd recommend it
01:00:00
to anyone it's just a shame that there's
01:00:02
a lot of people that could really do
01:00:03
with it but it's um yeah the cost is
01:00:04
prohibited yeah and I think there's
01:00:06
still in the states there's zero stigma
01:00:09
attached to it now you know like it
01:00:11
would be normal in a conversation even
01:00:13
with relative strangers to be like oh my
01:00:15
therapist said XYZ and I think in New
01:00:19
Zealand that would still perk people's
01:00:21
ears up rather than just being sort of
01:00:23
part of the normal discourse you know
01:00:24
like
01:00:25
mentioning casually that you go to
01:00:27
therapy isn't yet as normal here as it
01:00:30
is there
01:00:31
um but one thing it still probably has a
01:00:33
certain amount of stigma attached to it
01:00:34
in a way I guess I one one thing my wife
01:00:37
has always said uh I'm not sure if I
01:00:40
agree with that and I'm interested in
01:00:41
your takeers so she she has regular
01:00:44
sessions with her therapist and she
01:00:46
finds that the regularity is incredibly
01:00:50
helpful because
01:00:51
it's almost in the sort of
01:00:54
the moments where you don't think that
01:00:56
you have something that you need to deal
01:00:57
with that it will pop up and and
01:01:00
she said she's actually made most of her
01:01:02
biggest breakthroughs not when she's in
01:01:04
crisis but when she's just in a regular
01:01:05
session yeah and that's seems sort of
01:01:08
counter-intuitive to me like I've turned
01:01:10
to sports sucks into the resources that
01:01:12
I have if I'm feeling really bad and
01:01:14
it's like okay I feel really bad I need
01:01:15
to fix this but then there's this whole
01:01:17
other way of thinking of like no this is
01:01:19
yeah like going and seeing a personal
01:01:20
trainer everywhere that makes a lot of
01:01:22
sense like an ambulance at the top of
01:01:24
the club versus the bottom yeah I think
01:01:26
yeah I think there's a there's a lot in
01:01:28
that but again
01:01:30
yeah how did you guys meet
01:01:34
she's super smart right like Harvard
01:01:37
trained she's annoyingly smart yeah
01:01:40
um yeah I don't think you're only you're
01:01:42
a slouch either
01:01:43
I still managed by comparison I managed
01:01:45
to beat her at word games which really
01:01:47
frustrates her it's the best thing well
01:01:49
I like Wordle yeah like like word or um
01:01:53
Scrabble or whatever she hates it
01:01:55
um but we we met actually
01:01:59
um we got match made by a friend that I
01:02:01
grew up with and wanted upper
01:02:03
was doing a law Masters at Columbia
01:02:07
and I got to New York a few days before
01:02:10
my Airbnb started for the US Open and
01:02:14
you know I like always scratching to
01:02:17
make ends meet so rather than pay for a
01:02:18
hotel for a few nights I sort of thought
01:02:20
who do I know in in New York that I
01:02:22
could maybe crash on the couch for a few
01:02:24
nights and I got in touch with her and
01:02:26
uh turned out she was house sitting this
01:02:28
beautiful like four bedroom house in
01:02:30
Brooklyn for a while so yeah the the
01:02:32
people who owned it said it was fine for
01:02:34
me to stay and so we were just hanging
01:02:36
out and she got it in her head that um
01:02:38
that she needed to introduce me to one
01:02:40
of her friends while I was in New York
01:02:41
so it was just like scrolling through a
01:02:43
phone and giving giving grades to to her
01:02:46
available friends and she got to what
01:02:48
have you been giving grades like b-plus
01:02:51
that's the like in terms of what like
01:02:54
physicality or a whole package I guess a
01:02:57
whole holistic package
01:02:59
um
01:03:00
but she she got to Cairo and it's just
01:03:03
refreshing that uh that a female is
01:03:05
doing that yeah I know right like I was
01:03:07
actually quite surprised myself she got
01:03:08
she got to care she said uh Kara is an A
01:03:11
plus plus but I think she's got a
01:03:13
boyfriend so but she said you guys
01:03:15
should meet anyway because you just have
01:03:16
awesome conversations I was like okay
01:03:17
cool yeah whatever I'm I'm down to meet
01:03:19
people who I'd have a good chat with and
01:03:22
in between that and actually meeting up
01:03:25
with Caro found out she didn't have a
01:03:27
boyfriend anymore I think you know it's
01:03:28
like a few weeks out of a relationship
01:03:30
with something but anyway it was still
01:03:31
we're still thinking like this is just
01:03:33
someone I'm gonna have a chat with it's
01:03:35
not it's not a date or anything like
01:03:36
that so we met up for coffee and a walk
01:03:40
on the Hudson and and
01:03:42
um just ended up chatting for like three
01:03:44
hours and didn't want it to stop we both
01:03:47
I had training and she was um so she she
01:03:51
was doing a a law degree at Columbia at
01:03:54
the time that's how they knew each other
01:03:55
and
01:03:56
we both had to split but we didn't want
01:03:58
the conversation to end so actually
01:04:00
organized to meet again that night and
01:04:02
that was that that evening sort of felt
01:04:04
like a date and wow yeah it's not nice
01:04:07
those occasions in life and it's um it's
01:04:09
very rare but when when you meet someone
01:04:11
and it's almost like time stands still
01:04:12
low
01:04:13
it's remarkable like you can go on a
01:04:15
date with someone it could be awkward
01:04:16
and there's just nothing there and it's
01:04:18
evident very early on or then there's
01:04:20
the opposite which is like what you guys
01:04:21
had yeah and it's for me it's
01:04:25
the the coolest thing about my marriage
01:04:28
is I know that in 50 years
01:04:32
we're still going to have interesting
01:04:34
conversations and that
01:04:36
I just love that idea like she she
01:04:39
spends so much time growing as a person
01:04:42
and pushing herself in different
01:04:44
directions and you know like being
01:04:46
curious and trying to open a mind in
01:04:48
different ways and that's always been
01:04:50
sort of the way that I try to approach
01:04:52
life as well that you know we're
01:04:53
obviously we're both going to change and
01:04:55
grow a lot over the years but I just
01:04:56
always think that we're going to be able
01:04:58
to
01:04:58
to push and pull each other in ways that
01:05:00
will be challenging and and I get
01:05:02
excited about that it's
01:05:04
it's cool to think that you know like I
01:05:06
don't think boredom is ever going to be
01:05:07
part of the equation oh that's really
01:05:09
sweet that's really nice where do you
01:05:10
think you'll um end up remaining
01:05:13
New Zealand that's a tricky question
01:05:14
yeah um you don't have any kids here hey
01:05:17
we don't we have a dog which my wife
01:05:21
she treats the dog like that like I'm
01:05:23
worried how much she's gonna spoil kids
01:05:25
it's outrageous I'm a dog guy as well
01:05:29
and I think um kids end up doing things
01:05:31
that annoy you right
01:05:32
dogs are just perfect right right yeah
01:05:35
they you know even the annoying stuff
01:05:37
they do is tolerable but kids end up
01:05:38
becoming annoying okay so yeah I can I
01:05:41
can see that I mean although you know
01:05:43
like the dog recently has done a thing
01:05:44
where he started pulling her undies out
01:05:47
of the out of the laundry and and
01:05:49
chewing through them but she doesn't
01:05:51
find it annoying she's like oh that's
01:05:52
sweet you know just just who's not yours
01:05:56
a little bit a little bit messed about
01:05:58
it to be honest but
01:06:00
um
01:06:01
oh yeah no no kids we we are you know
01:06:04
we're hoping to have kids at some point
01:06:06
and
01:06:07
the the thing is
01:06:09
like I I've I love New Zealand and I've
01:06:12
wanted to I've desperately wanted to
01:06:15
live here for the last 15 years that
01:06:16
I've been overseas like I've
01:06:18
you know I miss this place yeah when I'm
01:06:20
away
01:06:21
um and so having you know sort of been
01:06:24
forced to be based here over the last
01:06:25
year and a half because of injury but
01:06:26
man it's been so cool in so many ways
01:06:28
just even even just being able to be
01:06:30
grounded a little bit and not have to
01:06:32
travel every week yeah
01:06:34
um yeah so you you messaged me um last
01:06:37
week about doing this podcast and I said
01:06:39
oh come around come around the following
01:06:40
Monday which is today
01:06:42
um you said on your first email that um
01:06:44
I think I'm going to be in the states
01:06:45
yeah yeah so we're we're heading away
01:06:48
Friday right so this is like
01:06:50
this is the challenge I think is so
01:06:52
she's really close to her family
01:06:54
um really close to her mother and they
01:06:56
live on the east coast of the states and
01:06:58
that's a long way away
01:06:59
um so
01:07:00
uh heading over there for about a month
01:07:02
and
01:07:04
you know like the other thing is
01:07:07
I like how small New Zealand is and and
01:07:09
I've never needed big cities like I sort
01:07:11
of run in the opposite direction from
01:07:13
from big cities you live in Raglan now
01:07:15
yeah and it's perfect yeah you know like
01:07:16
it's feels like a great balance to me of
01:07:19
enough going on that I don't feel like
01:07:21
I'm missing out on anything but
01:07:23
um quiet enough that you know I don't
01:07:25
feel sort of cramped and New York was
01:07:27
the opposite I really struggled there
01:07:30
um I regardless of who you are you feel
01:07:32
invisible in New York don't you and that
01:07:34
can be nice but yeah yeah and it's so
01:07:37
life on tour is so hectic that when I
01:07:40
come back from being on tour I want to
01:07:42
be able to relax and it's for me it was
01:07:44
impossible to relax in New York but
01:07:46
yeah so I'd like
01:07:48
for her having you know a law degree
01:07:50
from from one of the top universities in
01:07:52
the world like it's it's quite limited
01:07:54
what she can do with that in New Zealand
01:07:56
compared to the states what do you mean
01:07:58
you think um it would open any doors you
01:08:00
wanted to
01:08:00
yeah it's just like so so at the moment
01:08:03
she's working on a lot of
01:08:05
um for example like false advertising
01:08:07
law uh legal challenges to some of the
01:08:10
biggest corporations in the world so she
01:08:12
works for for a firm that's based on the
01:08:15
East Coast
01:08:16
um but she can't for example go to the
01:08:19
hearings and you know one of the cases
01:08:21
might be argued in the Supreme Court uh
01:08:23
in the future and uh she can't go and
01:08:26
attend that which if you're a lawyer
01:08:29
that's probably you know like the
01:08:30
Olympics of of law election if she's
01:08:33
based in New Zealand she can't pursue
01:08:35
those sorts of career opportunities
01:08:36
right and
01:08:38
in a sense you know I've
01:08:41
I've had the luxury of being able to
01:08:44
pursue like with all of my being a
01:08:47
career in tennis for a long time and she
01:08:49
hasn't been doing it for that long like
01:08:51
she she
01:08:52
spent so long studying and loved it but
01:08:55
you know she's she's only really been
01:08:57
working for sort of three or four years
01:08:58
and is sort of still in the stepping up
01:09:00
process so I suppose I suppose yeah for
01:09:03
what you do at 33 it's like definitely
01:09:05
into the second half or to even tail end
01:09:07
of your career but for a law thing I
01:09:09
suppose she's just ramping up yeah yeah
01:09:12
and started picking in her 50s
01:09:13
potentially yeah so it's like how how
01:09:16
can
01:09:17
is there a way that we can have our cake
01:09:19
and eat it too where she has the
01:09:21
opportunity for her career and we have
01:09:24
the lifestyle that that we want to have
01:09:26
it's like it's a tricky yeah tricky
01:09:27
situation and and post tennis for you
01:09:29
what's the what's the plan um stay at
01:09:31
home Dad and just um hia
01:09:34
Dash that doesn't sound bad
01:09:37
um sounds idalic yeah yeah I mean
01:09:41
yeah I the cool thing the cool thing
01:09:44
about being injured is I've thrown
01:09:46
myself at home-backed athletes for the
01:09:48
last year and a half and I've really
01:09:49
enjoyed it like it I feel like it's
01:09:51
grown a lot since then and it is
01:09:54
something that I get pumped to wake up
01:09:56
and work on
01:09:57
and I think a lot of athletes actually
01:09:58
really struggle with with what happens
01:10:00
after sport you know that
01:10:02
it is a big void you you spend
01:10:06
all of your waking hours
01:10:08
thinking about your sport or at least
01:10:10
that's that was the case for me and it
01:10:12
was you know even if you're not at the
01:10:13
tennis courts or in the gym everything
01:10:16
that you do outside of it is geared
01:10:17
towards it like what am I going to eat
01:10:19
tonight how is that going to help me
01:10:20
train better tomorrow you know what time
01:10:22
am I going to go to sleep am I gonna am
01:10:24
I gonna walk and explore this city or is
01:10:27
that going to be too tiring for my legs
01:10:29
so I can't train as well you know like
01:10:30
everything you do is get around sport so
01:10:33
when you give it up there's this big
01:10:34
void and you have to feel it somehow and
01:10:35
I feel really lucky that hia is like
01:10:39
feels like it feels that that void
01:10:40
pretty well
01:10:42
um
01:10:42
But ultimately I want ultimately I think
01:10:45
every charity or every non-profit's goal
01:10:48
should be to not have to exist right
01:10:50
like ultimately I want to try and solve
01:10:53
the problem of of athletes just deciding
01:10:56
that part of being an athlete is giving
01:10:58
back in a really effective and
01:11:00
significant way and and if we do that
01:11:02
you know if we can make it a norm in the
01:11:04
athlete space then we we don't need to
01:11:06
exist anymore and that's that's the
01:11:09
ideal and then after that who knows yeah
01:11:11
and um how's the body now are you on the
01:11:14
mint you're on the way back yeah I am on
01:11:16
the mend yeah um
01:11:18
yeah I so I had my first jog yesterday
01:11:21
uh after the second knee surgery and you
01:11:24
know it was like one minute jog four
01:11:25
minute walk so very very light but
01:11:28
basically pain-free and I've got a great
01:11:31
team I'm training out of Cambridge at
01:11:32
the velodrome there um I have a great
01:11:34
team that I'm working with there
01:11:37
um So the plan is the plan is get
01:11:39
healthy get strong
01:11:41
slowly return to tennis because you know
01:11:43
after a year and a half of not hitting
01:11:45
balls my wrist is
01:11:47
is going to take a long time to sort of
01:11:49
get used to that repetition and get
01:11:51
robust again but the idea is to try and
01:11:54
start with the ASB classic at the start
01:11:55
of next year
01:11:57
awesome and so when was the last time
01:11:58
you swung a record has it been a long
01:12:00
time yeah I mean so after the first
01:12:02
surgery I tried to come back a few times
01:12:04
and I think two or three times had a hit
01:12:07
and it's just it's just in a lot of pain
01:12:10
um so over the last year and a half I
01:12:12
probably spent like an hour and a half
01:12:14
total on court so the last time I really
01:12:15
properly swung the racket was Australian
01:12:17
Open last year is there um a fear that
01:12:20
you you know your game won't come back
01:12:22
the way it was or do you think it's like
01:12:23
a muscle memory thing or you're entirely
01:12:26
confident that uh it's going to be sweet
01:12:28
as
01:12:30
I think I'd be lying if I said I'm
01:12:31
entirely confident yeah
01:12:33
um yeah it's got it's got to be a bit of
01:12:35
anxiety there yeah
01:12:38
I'm entirely confident that I could get
01:12:40
back to a level of uh
01:12:45
of com of I reckon
01:12:47
I'm 100 confident I could get back to
01:12:49
top hundred
01:12:51
getting back to top 50 level or like you
01:12:54
know like challenging for the deeper
01:12:56
level deeper stages of grand slams
01:12:58
that's that's interesting because
01:13:02
that's not just physical that's like
01:13:03
your belief your mind has to be really
01:13:06
really sharp and and sort of
01:13:09
um you can't have any any chunks in your
01:13:11
self-belief there so
01:13:13
again sort of going back to imposter
01:13:15
syndrome
01:13:17
one thing that I'm gonna have to be very
01:13:19
conscious about dealing with is you know
01:13:21
always in the past I worked so hard
01:13:23
because I had this thing where I felt I
01:13:25
needed to feel like I deserved results
01:13:27
yeah and that for me was well I know
01:13:30
that I've put the same amount or more
01:13:32
hours in than the people around me and
01:13:35
the reality is over the last year and a
01:13:37
half I've put you know I've put a fair
01:13:39
amount of hours into my physical side
01:13:40
but nothing it's tennis so it's going to
01:13:43
be figuring that piece out I think yeah
01:13:45
well that's terrifying and exciting yeah
01:13:48
an equal measure that's an interesting
01:13:50
challenge
01:13:51
um but I I feel like you're in a lucky
01:13:52
position where it's like you're not
01:13:54
you're not going to be defined by tennis
01:13:57
yeah you know what I mean well I I hope
01:13:59
so actually I really hope that I thought
01:14:01
there's way more to you than just the
01:14:02
tennis and you know it would be
01:14:06
it would be a privilege if
01:14:08
whatever I've done in tennis gets
01:14:10
forgotten about uh because it's been
01:14:12
overshadowed by high impact athletes or
01:14:14
you know that sort of stuff like I'd
01:14:15
consider that a big one yeah yeah
01:14:18
wouldn't it be funny of 20 years from
01:14:19
now a fun fact the hia guy anyway
01:14:26
with everything thank you so all going
01:14:28
well we'll see you back on tennis court
01:14:31
yeah so um I have to be really strategic
01:14:34
about uh when I start competing because
01:14:36
there's all this protected ranking sort
01:14:38
of admin
01:14:39
um ideally I'm on a tennis court
01:14:41
training at Full Steam by sort of
01:14:44
October this year and hopefully
01:14:46
competing uh first week of next year
01:14:49
oh good oh yeah the um Heineken open yes
01:14:52
yeah the Auckland tennis tournament yeah
01:14:54
singles or doubles or both
01:14:57
doubles uh yeah
01:14:59
it would be impressive if I could if I
01:15:01
could get
01:15:02
at age 33 make a second career out of
01:15:05
singles yeah
01:15:06
um yeah doubles
01:15:09
hesitation there
01:15:11
well actually you know why I was
01:15:12
thinking on the drive up here I was
01:15:13
thinking
01:15:14
it might not be a bad idea when I start
01:15:17
training again to train singles because
01:15:19
it will be a bit more repetition through
01:15:21
the body it'll be a harder version like
01:15:23
a more physical version of tennis
01:15:25
through the body so if I can if I can be
01:15:28
robust playing singles then I can
01:15:30
probably be robust playing high high
01:15:33
level doubles and I think
01:15:37
because I'm not as good at Singles I can
01:15:39
probably get a lot of good competition
01:15:41
in New Zealand on the singles Court
01:15:43
who knows you know maybe sign up for for
01:15:46
ASB classic qualities and and
01:15:49
see what I can do I don't have any
01:15:53
expectations there like I've got
01:15:54
negative expectations on on the single
01:15:56
score uh watch the space Oh what's
01:15:58
what's Michael Venus been doing while
01:15:59
you've been out injured uh he's been
01:16:01
cracking on he's playing with uh Jamie
01:16:04
Murray
01:16:05
um they won an ATP title yesterday in
01:16:10
Geneva uh so the the
01:16:13
tournament and the lead up to Roland
01:16:14
garroth so the French Open starts either
01:16:16
today or yesterday
01:16:18
um
01:16:18
I mean he's he's been truly world class
01:16:21
for the last five six years you know
01:16:23
um sort of hanging in the top 20 and
01:16:27
I've got a I I have to give a huge
01:16:29
amount of credit to Mike because
01:16:31
he sort of broke the seal in New Zealand
01:16:33
he won the French Open
01:16:36
it's like 2015 or something like that
01:16:39
prove to
01:16:40
us bunch of kiwi tennis players who are
01:16:43
trying to make it pro that we could and
01:16:46
being the first person to do that is the
01:16:48
hardest and then you know the
01:16:50
Trailblazer right yeah it helped me it
01:16:52
was like okay I know Mike I know Mike's
01:16:54
level he's really good but I don't feel
01:16:56
like I'm worse and so like if he can do
01:16:59
it then maybe I can do it and I feel
01:17:00
like he's you know that was a gift to to
01:17:03
a lot of other kiwi tennis players does
01:17:04
that so yeah sorry I was just wrapping
01:17:06
up but I just think about the um the
01:17:08
Dynamics of like a double scenario
01:17:11
how does it feel from your perspective
01:17:13
when you were out injured and he's
01:17:15
cracking on with another partner
01:17:18
I mean so we never we never played uh
01:17:21
the tour together we played a few
01:17:22
tournaments here and there but we've
01:17:24
never had a long-term partnership but
01:17:25
was always when we played for the
01:17:26
country we played together
01:17:28
um
01:17:29
they're uh yeah I'm gonna be totally
01:17:32
transparent here there are some people
01:17:34
that when they win I'm like oh you know
01:17:36
like that like that should be me but not
01:17:39
with Mike yeah um
01:17:41
yeah with with kiwis I feel like I'm
01:17:43
just stoked when they win and I feel I
01:17:46
feel like tennis is underrepresented in
01:17:48
New Zealand I mean it's a huge Global
01:17:50
Sport and uh I wish it had a bit more
01:17:53
recognition and you know a bit more sort
01:17:55
of
01:17:56
a wider community and a bit more sort of
01:17:59
uptake in New Zealand so the better
01:18:01
kiwis can do I think the the happier I
01:18:03
am
01:18:04
that's awesome oh you're a good man
01:18:07
um congratulations on everything you've
01:18:08
done and uh I think congratulations too
01:18:12
for everything that you're gonna do in
01:18:13
the future
01:18:14
oh thank you it's going to be a hell of
01:18:15
a life thank you and thanks for having
01:18:17
me on and and for you know providing a
01:18:19
platform to talk about this stuff I
01:18:21
think the the platform that you provide
01:18:22
is really valuable not just you know for
01:18:24
you know people like me who want to talk
01:18:26
about non-profits and charity and that
01:18:28
sort of stuff but also the the way that
01:18:29
you talk about mental health and and
01:18:31
being open with that side of things I
01:18:33
think you know especially men in New
01:18:35
Zealand probably have a ways to go with
01:18:36
that stuff and so normalizing it and and
01:18:39
sort of bringing it more into the
01:18:40
mainstream is really valuable yeah well
01:18:42
thank you uh well I mean I've just been
01:18:43
like overwhelmed really by how
01:18:46
um open and transparent everyone has
01:18:48
been that's been on the the podcast it's
01:18:50
just normalizing these conversations say
01:18:51
rather than just sort of like bearing it
01:18:53
in the shadows yeah and I think it's I
01:18:55
think it's a really cool thing like I'm
01:18:56
I'm you're 33 I'm 50 now so I was from
01:18:58
born in that and raised in that
01:19:00
generation where yeah you guys don't cry
01:19:02
uh you know Real Men drink beer all that
01:19:05
sort of stuff so it's it's nice to sort
01:19:07
of um like change that narrative a bit
01:19:09
yeah nice oh well done hey Marcus Daniel
01:19:11
thank you so much man good luck favorite
01:19:13
thing thanks
01:19:14
thank you
01:19:18
[Music]
