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[Music]
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Kiwis love a
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thirst. Like Finn, we're making
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[Music]
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waves. Generate switch online
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[Music]
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today. Dr. Anika Meredith, welcome to my
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podcast. Thank you for having me. I am
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so pleased that we made this happen. you
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you had a um a book out last year called
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On Call, right? And we try we were going
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back and forth um me and your publisher
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team trying to set up a podcast. Um but
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I try and do these in person and you
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were you're in Paris where you live
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these days and now you're back in New
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Zealand for summer. So we connected.
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Yes. For for summer, right?
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Your whole life sounds so glamorous.
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Yeah. Living in Paris, uh riding around
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on a Vesper with my French husband,
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right? Do do you smoke cigarettes at
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dinner? No, I must say I'm pretty
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antismoking and of course this is
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because we is because we of of where we
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live and what we're surrounded by and
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what we grew up with. But there it's so
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normal, you know, they are a lot of
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we've got a lot of friends and at dinner
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they go, "Do you want to have a smoke?"
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And do you smoke? No. But do you really?
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That's like your final say on it. You
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don't smoke? No, I don't smoke. So it's
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actually bizarre not to smoke over
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there. That's Yeah. And the um the
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French women in particular, they make it
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look very glamorous. Yeah. That's your
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opinion.
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That's your opinion. But it's not like
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this is that's thanks to TV and movies
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and Gucci ads. Yeah. And Emily in Paris,
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the Netflix show. But it's not you see a
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bunch of New Zealanders at the back of
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say pack and say, Kmart smoking. It's
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not the same thing. Cat do puffer
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jackets on. Compare that to like a
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French woman with a a big coat on in the
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middle of winter. Yeah. Yeah. cafe, a
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quason, coffee, a cigarette. It's not
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the same buzz. Do you have a little dog
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and you never pick up the the poo
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afterwards? I don't have a little dog,
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but there's poo. Oh, I was going to say
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something else all over our street and
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sometimes I'm not sure if it's humid or
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if it's or if it's dog. Why is that a
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thing? Um that's I I most recently went
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to Paris uh last April for the marathon
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with my mom and there's dog [ __ ]
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everywhere. Everywhere. It's absolutely
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horrible. It's everywhere. And then you
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you know they walk in the apartments
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with their shoes and the dogs don't get
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washed like it's they're against washing
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dogs but it is everywhere. I mean you're
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supposed to be fined for not picking
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your dog [ __ ] up but actually well the
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reality is no one cares about that ain't
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working. That's right. And so you you
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live in you you've lived in Paris for
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since co right? Yeah I've lived in Paris
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officially. I'm now Parisian. I've got
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my residence card etc. But I've had it
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for like 2 years, but I've been back and
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forth for probably close to 8 years now.
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And uh we were doing this back and forth
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uh up until CO and through CO, but then
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after CO it was just too tough. Airports
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were tough, airlines were tough and
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everything was super expensive. Plus, it
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is a long journey. Uh you know, I flew
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here what one or two weeks ago. It's 30
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hours doortodoor and it gets more
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exhausting as you get older. It's
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horrible. Yeah. you you and your husband
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precoid uh doing the commute and you do
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a thing where you meet halfway you meet
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in Abu Dhabi or Singapore or LA or
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whatever. It's the most um glamorous yet
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extreme long-distance relationship
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imaginable and expensive. So expensive,
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right? Not even mentioning everything.
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Okay. Yeah. Financially, but time and
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Okay. Well, let's talk about the carbon
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footprint a little later. But yeah, very
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expensive, but it was fun. Well, it
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lasted. And uh but then at the end of
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the day, I said, "Look, uh what am I
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going to do if CO happens again? What
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side of the world do I want to be stuck
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on? And how do I want to be living my
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life actually? And where do I want to be
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living my life?" And it was it's Paris,
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of course. Yeah. So, you've still got
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three homes. You got um France, um
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Samoa, and New Zealand. So, Paris for
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life now. Paris for life. Yeah. What
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about your your son? Your adult son.
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Where does he live now? He lives in the
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UK. Okay. Yeah. He's going to university
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in the UK. Brighton. He did a year in
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London and now he's in Brighton. So,
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we're officially uh UK Europe. Right.
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Hey, it's so good to have you here
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finally. I know. Um I I am uh typically
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a slow reader, but I got your book over
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the weekend and I um read pretty much
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the entire thing from cover to cover. I
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got so much to ask. Did you cry?
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I I didn't cry, but I I did get
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emotional in part. What where do you
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think I would have cried? Um maybe the
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guy with the cucumber. Oh. Oh, the butt
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stuff. I've actually got a I've actually
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got an entire question card here called
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downstairs. Um no, no, I don't know. I
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cried at parts about your
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um family dynamic actually. Nothing to
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this because the sto the the book on
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call. It's um sort of essay style. lots
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of stories from you know your job um as
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a surgeon but also um there's some
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intensely personal and vulnerable stuff
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there about your family and I found that
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quite upsetting just the I don't I don't
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know partly I suppose cuz you had big
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walls up and you know you managed to
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sort of get them anyway we get we'll get
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into we'll get into that first of all um
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can I ask some like really oh these are
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probably dumb questions but I know
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nothing about surgery I've been operated
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on before I think most people in their
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life will probably go into an operating
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theater but um we're unconscious that's
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Okay. Yeah. So, all all most of us can
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base anything on is basically what we've
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seen on Grey's Anatomy or whatever the
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show happens to be or whatever your
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wound looks like when you come out.
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Yeah. Does it look like Is it a nice
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wound? Nice and clean. You had a good
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surgery. So, um do you remember your
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first surgery?
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Uh well, there's different types of
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surgery, but yeah, I do. I do remember
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the the where I was allowed to operate
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independently and alone. Yeah. And
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uh it's bloody frightening, you know.
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And actually, well, my son and I had an
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argument one day because I said, "Well,
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I was operating on people when I was 25,
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26 independently." And he said, "Uh,
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well, that's effed, isn't it? Don't you
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think?" And I'm like, "Well, yeah, if I
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think of the 25, 26 year olds that I
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know, yeah, there's a there's something
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wrong with it." But you know what? This
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is this was what we were trained to do.
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M but I I can't imagine a more
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frightening sort of first solo day on
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the job. You know what I mean? Yeah.
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Yeah. I mean there's a lot on the line,
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you know. You've got to know your
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limits. You've got to know that there's
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backup. But yeah, it's it it's
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frightening. And everybody's looking at
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you. The anetist is looking at you and
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rolling his or her eyes maybe because
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you're taking a little longer than you
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should. And the nurses are looking at
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you and they know that you're, you know,
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there's something the tension. Yeah. The
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tension. And you have to there's
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something like you have to pretend to be
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confident but not so confident that you
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f it up or you forget to call for help
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when you need to call for help. And
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probably the biggest the biggest thing
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that you can get wrong is not knowing
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when to call for help. Uh is that is
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that a like a pride thing or an ego
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thing? Yeah, I think it's an ego thing
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and and sometimes people don't know
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their limits. You know, there are people
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who um say look I I'll see one I'll see
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one and then I'll do one. And there's
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this thing we say which is say see see
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one do one teach one. Okay I don't
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condone it but sometimes sometimes we do
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it but there are people who will say
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I'll see one and then I can do it. I'll
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do it. And there are other people who
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say I saw one then I want to do one
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partly with somebody and then do a
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little bit more then do a little bit
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more and then then do it. And uh you
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know I've spoken before about the
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differences in female and male trainees
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and male trainees tend to be the former.
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I see one I can do one. And I'm not
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going to say they're all like that,
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okay? I won't totally generalize, but I
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know that I'm not too far from the
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truth. You know, there are more males
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than females training and surgery. So, I
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mean, I admire the confidence, but also
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like I prefer a little bit of
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apprehension in my surgeon. Yeah,
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exactly. Yeah. Um, so what's it like in
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theater? Is is there is there is there
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do you have a UEI boom? Is there music
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playing? Is there laughter? There's
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music. There's music. I'm I like to
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operate with music and one time The
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surgeon gets to decide what the surgeon
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usually gets to decide unless you don't
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have Spotify but uh I remember one time
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I was playing my music and the patient
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came in and I had on the on the boom box
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um Credence Clear Water Revival as long
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as I can see the light and the anesist
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came to me and said turn that off. Yeah.
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So sometimes there's a bit of friction
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about music choices and volume, but it
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is a surgeon's preference. Um I'm I'm I
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love music. Um it depends a lot on the
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operation and what's happening. I mean
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there's a big difference between what
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it's like when a trauma comes through
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the door. Category one, somebody's you
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has to be in there within 30 minutes or
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they're going to die and uh obviously
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something more elective, something
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simple like a hernia
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or you know, I mean that's basically an
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elective list. things are a bit more
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chilled. And and do you have your phone
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in there with you or the phones? You do?
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Yeah. Yeah. We have our phones in there
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with us and different hospitals have
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different uh uh rules around, you know,
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whether the phone is allowed to ring. We
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have the nurses who answer the phones
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for us. I mean, it's a little annoying
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sometimes for them a lot, but uh yeah,
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we do have phones there. Oh, so you look
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at the screen and if it's um some
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something that's potentially important,
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you right. Okay. Okay. Well, if it's my
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son calling from London, I I ask him to
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pick it up and ask him immediately, is
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it an emergency or not an emergency? Not
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an emergency. Okay, fine. I'll call you
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back later. He knows what it means. What
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about coffee and snacks and things? If
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it's a long If it's a long coffee and
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snacks always in between cases,
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sometimes when you know when we were
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doing really long cases, okay, fine. You
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can have surgeries that last up to 10
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hours, 13 hours. You have to have a
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break or you're turning a patient.
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Sometimes when I'm doing breast
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reconstruction, we have to turn and
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reposition them. And uh in between those
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breaks, we'll always have coffee or
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cheese on toast or water or a toilet
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break. We're only human. Do you not lose
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your appetite, though? Yeah. I mean,
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it's not the first thing that comes to
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mind, actually. It's mostly water. I
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need water. I need to breathe. I need to
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go to the toilet. Yeah. Often you're not
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thinking about what you're going to have
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for lunch. What What is the longest time
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you've had in theater on one operation?
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Uh god. uh like 13 14 hours, but that
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was years ago and I didn't specialize in
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that. And um the la last one in the set
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of dumb questions. Well, actually
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probably not. There's bound to be more.
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Um what's the temperature like in
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theater? Is it ah okay well it's up to
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you. I like it to be a bit cool. I like
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it to be
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20.5° but specific. No, but uh when
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we're doing neonatal surgery, so
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newborns, the theaters are hot. They're
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35
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36° and uh we've got the nurses sponging
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us down with a cold flannel. Cold
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flannels in the over the back of your
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neck. So, it's a bit variable. Wow. Has
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a patient ever woken up? I think that's
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not to my knowledge. No.
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Is that more the aniththetist job? Yeah.
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Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cuz that's everyone's
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worst fear, right? As a patient. I think
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so. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. That Yeah.
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Waking up during surgery and waking up
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after surgery. Will I wake up? Um, have
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you ever sewn a patient up then realize
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you've left like a utensil or something
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in them? No, we've got um we have to
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have counts in the beginning and at the
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end. And if something is is not
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something is a miss, the counts don't
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match, then we do X-ray or reopen. So, a
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patient should not theoretically ever
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leave the Yeah. Someone wanted wanted me
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to ask you um do do surgeons, maybe not
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you specifically, but maybe this goes
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back to some of the the dudes you were
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talking about before. Do a lot of
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students have like an ego or a god
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complex? Hell yeah. Really? Yeah. Yeah.
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Yeah. It's tough because I mean they're
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all type A personalities and everyone
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thinks they're pretty special. Of
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course. I mean you were top in your
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class wherever in school top you know
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you you competed to get into med school
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and it was only whatever in New Zealand
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100 150 per year. So you kind of gone
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through your whole life where you are
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cream of the crop and and you know every
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specialty thinks they're pretty awesome.
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Orthopedics think they're amazing.
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General surgery think they're amazing.
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Cardiothoracics think they're gods.
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Neurosurgeons think so everybody thinks
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they're they're awesome. So of course
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that it's tense in theaters and uh when
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you're fighting for cases who's more
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important. No, my patient's more sick.
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My patient more sick. So this is such
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such an interesting insight. Yeah. It
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must have been um yeah a hell of a
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journey for you because not only are you
00:12:28
a woman which I suppose immediately puts
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puts you in a bit of a minority in this
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group but a moan woman as well. Yeah,
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absolutely. Yeah. Well, good for you.
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Thank you. That's incredible. Um, what
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about the money? Is this is is does the
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money end up being great? Does I mean to
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be lucky? Yeah, we're lucky in New
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Zealand. It's great. We're paid very
00:12:45
very well. We've got great uh work life
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balance. Amazing. Amazing. Uh now I'm
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living in France and it's not the same
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at all. Uh you know, uh GPS in France
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get paid €25 an hour. That's €50 an
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hour. 50 New Zealand dollars an hour.
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and in this country uh you know that's
00:13:04
we're making five t times more. So you
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know we're pretty lucky. So um in your
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book on call um the book starts and in
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the first five pages we have um a
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teenage boy that you're operating on. Um
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actually there's two teenage boys and
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they've been involved in a high-speed
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police chase and they come in and then
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um one of them dies on you on the
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operating table. This is all in the
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first five pages. And then um later on
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in the book, there's a a 2-year-old girl
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that um you dies um on the operating
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table as well, and you have to uh sew
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her up before returning her to the
00:13:36
parents. They can have like one um sort
00:13:38
of final like goodbye cuddle. Yeah.
00:13:42
How do you how do you deal with such
00:13:44
like unimaginable grief?
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Well, I think the problem is that we
00:13:48
don't, you know, uh, okay, we're not
00:13:51
even talking about the parental grief
00:13:53
and the family grief, but as a surgeon
00:13:55
and I remember those cases very very
00:13:57
well. um we don't and we're not taught
00:14:00
to we're expected to just pick up and
00:14:03
continue because the next day there are
00:14:05
booked theater lists and there are book
00:14:06
clinics and there there's call and uh
00:14:10
and so we're not taught to process that
00:14:11
grief really you know you kind of and
00:14:15
for me I realized that I was burning out
00:14:17
or or exhausted because actually I just
00:14:19
you know you lose compassion you you're
00:14:22
tired patients are not happy you don't
00:14:25
care anymore you know and So there's
00:14:28
something that's missing in our medical
00:14:30
training. And I know, you know, a couple
00:14:32
of people have tried to change the
00:14:33
system a little to have buddying or, you
00:14:36
know, counseling. And the old school
00:14:38
doesn't accept that so much. You know,
00:14:40
they they're all of the mindset that it
00:14:43
was a right of passage that they did it
00:14:45
that they did it harder that they did
00:14:46
harder on call. Okay, fine. Well, kudos
00:14:50
to you. But times have changed and uh
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and and people don't want to work that
00:14:54
way anymore. People want to be healthy.
00:14:56
people want to, you know, have good
00:14:58
relationships, be parents, be husbands,
00:15:00
wives. And I think just the mindset that
00:15:03
you have to fight and and you feel
00:15:07
insulated because nobody can possibly
00:15:09
understand what you're going through
00:15:11
means that your the relationships around
00:15:12
you suffer.
00:15:14
So So stitching up like a a deceased
00:15:17
2-year-old um and you're crying when
00:15:21
you're doing this.
00:15:23
Um yeah, how do you decompress after
00:15:25
that? What what happens? So you go you
00:15:29
are you dismissed from your shift
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immediately? Yeah. Yeah. So if it's
00:15:34
Yeah. I mean you're dismissed from your
00:15:35
No, not necessarily. Sorry. You're not
00:15:37
necessarily dismissed.
00:15:39
If you've had a catastrophic outcome
00:15:41
which was not expected, then as a
00:15:44
colleague I would say to a colleague and
00:15:46
I've I've been in the situation before
00:15:47
where you say, "Listen,
00:15:50
uh, drop all your tools. I'm going to
00:15:53
take care of this and you go home and
00:15:54
I'm going to come and see you later. I'm
00:15:56
going to, you know, bring you dinner.
00:15:57
Just don't worry about anything. I'm
00:15:58
going to take care of it." But as a a
00:16:01
system level, you know, what happens
00:16:04
process, etc. It doesn't exist. It
00:16:06
doesn't exist. you really have to rely
00:16:08
on your your colleagues who are going to
00:16:10
be there for you actually. And of
00:16:11
course, that's that's variable. It
00:16:13
depends on the colleagues that you have.
00:16:14
And fortunately, I've had I've had good
00:16:16
colleagues. I've had bad colleagues, but
00:16:18
uh actually most of the time, you know,
00:16:20
I've been around good people. But how
00:16:22
can you how can you compartmentalize
00:16:23
something like that and move like you
00:16:25
you can't go to a friend's barbecue that
00:16:27
night, can you? No. God, no. Hell no.
00:16:29
You can't because actually well am I
00:16:32
supposed to be feeling happy or am I
00:16:33
supposed to be laughing at your jokes
00:16:35
which today I feel like they're pretty
00:16:37
stupid. I just there was just a
00:16:39
2-year-old girl that died on the table
00:16:40
and her parents are suffering and so
00:16:42
this is what you kind of carry and it's
00:16:44
not right because I went through this
00:16:47
and you know my son even his you know
00:16:50
his problems you I got called one day
00:16:52
because he fell off the bar and hurt his
00:16:54
back and uh the teacher called said can
00:16:56
you come pick him up and I said well can
00:16:58
he walk and they and the teacher said
00:17:01
yeah and I'm like well okay fine he can
00:17:03
walk cuz actually what I'm dealing with
00:17:05
is is worse and that's terrible
00:17:07
Actually, it's terrible to to to compare
00:17:10
the rest of your life to what you're
00:17:12
dealing with. The worst case scenario.
00:17:14
It's pretty I feel bad for him and this
00:17:17
is what he lived through all his life.
00:17:19
But yeah, is it a matter of life and
00:17:21
defeat? Is that a threshold? Exactly.
00:17:23
Can he walk? Uh then give him a panadol
00:17:25
and send him back.
00:17:28
Not even Tramies.
00:17:30
Okay. Um there was another story in your
00:17:32
case. Um then you we don't need to say
00:17:35
the patient's name but you it's a very
00:17:37
highprofile New Zealand offender and you
00:17:39
can sort of join the dots and work out
00:17:41
um who it is. Particularly nasty nasty
00:17:44
piece of work. So um this guy comes in
00:17:47
with um after being shot on the leg by
00:17:49
the police and you have to amputate his
00:17:51
leg and he's um yeah describe that
00:17:54
scenario. So he's he's chained to the
00:17:56
bed. So he's chained to the bed, but
00:17:58
often when we have
00:18:00
um patients come from the prison,
00:18:02
they're chained to the bed. But he was
00:18:04
chained to the bed uh throughout meanl
00:18:07
looking so super big uh frightening and
00:18:12
actually it was my I was very junior.
00:18:14
I'd never done vascular before and this
00:18:17
is one of those scenarios that you're
00:18:18
talking about, you know, your f one of
00:18:19
your first operations. And and um I'd
00:18:22
been called to say there was a gunshot.
00:18:25
We don't deal with gun gunshots in New
00:18:26
Zealand. [ __ ] I didn't like I don't
00:18:28
even know what to do with the gunshot. I
00:18:29
have no idea. It gone through a major
00:18:32
blood vessel in his leg. So he landed.
00:18:34
The hospital was shut down. Cops
00:18:37
everywhere. He's chained to the bed.
00:18:39
Cops in the in the operating theater as
00:18:41
well. Yeah. Just outside the operating
00:18:42
theaters guarding the hospital. No one
00:18:44
was allowed in or out. Everything was on
00:18:46
on lockdown. And um and so we take him
00:18:49
to theater the first time and uh you
00:18:54
know okay fine his major blood vessel
00:18:56
had been damaged. So he had what we call
00:18:59
a bypass bypass procedure where you're
00:19:02
you're creating another passage from the
00:19:05
good part over you know bypassing the
00:19:08
damaged part to the to the end of the
00:19:10
leg and it didn't work the first
00:19:14
time and I say in the book you know
00:19:17
maybe if he'd been somebody different
00:19:19
and I don't know the answer to this but
00:19:21
maybe we would have tried harder to save
00:19:23
his leg but as it turned out the leg was
00:19:26
dead and uh I was the one that amputated
00:19:29
it. Having never amputated before,
00:19:30
having never seen it before, the
00:19:33
consultant surgeon said, "Listen, just
00:19:35
get on and and amputate." And sometimes
00:19:37
you can say, "Well, I've never done it
00:19:39
before." Uh, can you come in? And he
00:19:43
will or she will. And sometimes you say,
00:19:45
"I've never done it before." And he'll
00:19:47
say, "Well, you know, just put a ton
00:19:49
around it and cut it off, you know." So
00:19:51
this is the case. I never done it
00:19:53
before. And it was huge. It was
00:19:55
enormous. Um but yeah so and you so he
00:20:00
was awake through part of the procedure.
00:20:01
No he was asleep. Oh okay. Asleep for
00:20:04
the amputation but he was he was awake
00:20:05
early on cuz you describe him as sort of
00:20:06
learing. Yeah. Sounds like he's a
00:20:09
psychopath. Yeah. Yeah. The way he looks
00:20:11
at you, the way he the way he I mean he
00:20:15
you he looks evil for want of a better
00:20:18
word. How old were you at the time? Ah
00:20:21
20s. This is what my son's talking
00:20:23
about. That's F, isn't it? I was 20s.
00:20:25
Maybe 26, 27. It's terrifying. Yeah.
00:20:29
Yeah. Like, can you imagine? I can think
00:20:32
of many 26, 27 year olds who would never
00:20:35
have to go through that. Good. That's
00:20:37
great. But what we're expected to deal
00:20:39
with at such a young age and really just
00:20:41
to hit the ground running and sometimes
00:20:42
we say, you know, don't be afraid to
00:20:44
cope. Well, I've said it to my juniors.
00:20:46
Look, just don't be afraid to cope. And
00:20:48
uh that's what you have to do. Yeah. No,
00:20:51
that's that's part of the reason why I
00:20:52
asked about the you the rather personal
00:20:54
money question before because um yeah,
00:20:56
you guys do deserve to be comp
00:20:58
compensated really well. First of all,
00:20:59
you you know, you're all very
00:21:00
intelligent and smart. Um and those um
00:21:03
smarts could be you placed in any other
00:21:05
sort of sector and you're probably in
00:21:07
way more money. Um but also the like I
00:21:09
don't I don't know if it's danger money,
00:21:10
but just the things that you see and the
00:21:12
things that you do. I mean you know it's
00:21:14
an essential part of society.
00:21:15
Absolutely. There's a huge need and uh
00:21:18
you know you see it the the general
00:21:21
practitioners we're short on the ground
00:21:22
surgeons we're short on the ground and
00:21:24
and you're right there has to be some
00:21:26
recompense uh some sort of
00:21:28
incentivization and well money uh money
00:21:32
helps
00:21:35
everybody needs money. Absolutely. You
00:21:37
can buy buy nicer nicer um soap like
00:21:40
when you're soaping yourself down after
00:21:42
a hard day dealing with um death and
00:21:44
tragedy.
00:21:45
Um, so what sort of relationship do you
00:21:48
have with the patients? Obviously, if
00:21:50
someone comes in and it's an emergency
00:21:52
situation like the boys in the highspeed
00:21:54
car chase, you have no pre-existing
00:21:56
relationship with them, but generally
00:21:57
like do you do you meet with the patient
00:21:59
before you operate on them and you meet
00:22:00
with them afterwards and Yeah. Yeah.
00:22:02
Yeah. So, uh, if I if I look at my
00:22:05
breast cancer work then Yeah. I mean
00:22:08
cancer is totally different cuz
00:22:10
obviously it's a very emotional very
00:22:12
very emotional moment for for the
00:22:14
patient and and you know they have a
00:22:17
real sense of mort of mortality you know
00:22:19
you can die from cancer so the
00:22:21
relationship's obviously very different
00:22:23
there's a there is some dependence and
00:22:26
actually they're relying on us to for
00:22:28
cure and for best possible treatment and
00:22:31
to live the rest of their life healthily
00:22:33
cancer-free. uh that's not always
00:22:35
possible and uh but the relationship is
00:22:37
very special for cancer. It's it's a
00:22:40
tough relationship because of course uh
00:22:43
you know some we you know sometimes we
00:22:46
say the disease has the cuts we can't we
00:22:48
can't control the outcome and and the
00:22:50
disease will do what it does. Um so yeah
00:22:53
generally with breast cancer work or any
00:22:55
cancer work you meet with the patient um
00:22:58
one time two times three times depending
00:23:00
on how complex the operation is. You
00:23:02
know is it going to be a straightforward
00:23:03
in and out in one day and they're going
00:23:05
to be fine or is there a real risk of
00:23:07
death or deformity or losing something?
00:23:11
Um and then you know you would tailor it
00:23:14
according to how well people respond to
00:23:17
you know information. Do they understand
00:23:20
it? Are they happy? Are they not happy?
00:23:21
do they need more? Um, do they need some
00:23:24
to come back with family? So, there's a
00:23:26
lot of tailoring. Uh, and you know, a
00:23:29
lot of being a surgeon is being
00:23:30
emotionally intelligent and knowing that
00:23:31
cuz if outcomes don't work out the way
00:23:34
you
00:23:35
plan, you know, well, then that can be
00:23:39
devastating.
00:23:42
Yeah. How do you tell someone they've
00:23:43
got like a a terminal illness? Does it
00:23:46
does it did you get better at it? Um,
00:23:49
does it get easier? It doesn't get
00:23:50
easier. I think it gets harder because
00:23:53
you know what that means and uh for you
00:23:56
for them as a patient but also for them
00:23:58
as a member of a family and a wider
00:24:02
group. You know now I'm I'm a mother you
00:24:04
know what it means for for a child you
00:24:07
know my own mother was sick. So you you
00:24:08
understand more acutely the impact on
00:24:10
the family and it destroys families you
00:24:13
know to when the outcome's not good it
00:24:16
destroys families. Uh, and you have to
00:24:18
be a bloody good, bloody strong family
00:24:21
to get through through
00:24:23
this. So, did I get better at it? I
00:24:27
don't know. But I certainly became more
00:24:29
emotionally intelligent. I think I
00:24:32
certainly became more empathic. Um, and
00:24:37
uh, but it's still hard. I mean, it's
00:24:39
it's bloody hard. And it's it's horrible
00:24:42
when they come into hospital. And I talk
00:24:44
about this in the book, you know,
00:24:46
playing golf one day and it happens not
00:24:48
infrequently. Playing golf one day or
00:24:50
out for a run, a little bit of pain, not
00:24:53
quite right for a week, come to
00:24:55
hospital, scan, riddled with disease.
00:24:58
You know, life's never going to be the
00:24:59
same. and well maybe there's something
00:25:02
wonderful in that
00:25:03
because because we know what a long
00:25:06
protracted illness can look like you
00:25:08
know and and if there was if we could
00:25:11
choose a way to go maybe personally I
00:25:13
would I would choose something like that
00:25:15
you know something that was short and
00:25:16
I'm well one moment and you know then I
00:25:19
I know that it's two weeks and I can do
00:25:22
what I want with my life. Is that a
00:25:24
component in in med school like they
00:25:25
teach you communication or how to Yes.
00:25:28
Yes. But it's very um it's very false.
00:25:30
It's sort of okay, here's your actor
00:25:33
breaking back. But you're 23 years old.
00:25:36
You actually have have zero emotional
00:25:38
intelligence. You're a bit of an
00:25:40
[ __ ] You know, you're drinking most
00:25:42
nights. You think it's funny. You think
00:25:44
the actor is stupid. Uh you know, so
00:25:47
yeah, there's a little bit. Uh it's
00:25:49
really tick the box, but you have to,
00:25:52
you know, I don't know that you can
00:25:54
teach compassion. M um some people you
00:25:57
just have to get better at it over time.
00:26:01
So um I mean death is is just one of the
00:26:04
outcomes but it's um I what would the
00:26:07
percentage be of patients that you
00:26:08
operate on that um have a negative
00:26:10
outcome? I mean it's variable depending
00:26:12
on how they present but it can be well
00:26:14
if a woman's having a breast cancer
00:26:16
operation I expect it to be close to
00:26:17
zero and obviously if somebody comes
00:26:19
into hospital really really unwell it
00:26:21
can be anything from 20 to 80% or 100. M
00:26:24
you know sometimes we say well look
00:26:26
you're going to die whether we operate
00:26:28
on you or not
00:26:30
and some people say well I want the
00:26:32
chance if you know if there's a 5%
00:26:34
chance uh I want that chance. Uh so yeah
00:26:39
it's very well you one thing which um
00:26:41
probably naively I never really thought
00:26:42
about or considered um until reading
00:26:44
your book over the weekend on call is um
00:26:47
just the amount of scrutiny you're under
00:26:49
like you you you were investigated a
00:26:51
couple of times right? So if there's a
00:26:53
negative outcome and yeah under what
00:26:55
circumstances are you investigated?
00:26:58
Well uh if uh well for any death in the
00:27:00
hospital really well any postoperative
00:27:02
death so if you operate on somebody and
00:27:04
they die and this is this is I mean it's
00:27:07
right um you know you there's an
00:27:09
investigation it has to be reported to
00:27:11
the coroner and then the coroner will
00:27:13
you explain the circumstances the
00:27:15
coroner will say well okay fine that's
00:27:17
uh she was 95 years old uh it was uh it
00:27:22
sounds like it was it was going to end
00:27:24
poorly there's no no suspicious outcome
00:27:27
come here and uh that's done. And then
00:27:30
of course if it's somebody who's young
00:27:31
and uh in the book of course they're
00:27:34
young um then then there's a wider
00:27:37
investigation which is the right thing
00:27:39
to do. I mean, if a death is
00:27:41
preventable, how can we what can we do
00:27:44
better to stop this from happening
00:27:45
again? And it does happen, of course,
00:27:47
cuz we're all human. Everything, we're
00:27:49
all human from, you know, nursing staff,
00:27:51
uh, emergency do doctors, surgeons,
00:27:53
anesthetists. So,
00:27:56
still a lot of stress for you guys.
00:27:57
Like, I mean, it's horrible. It's a
00:27:59
massive amount of Yeah. Like Yeah. Every
00:28:02
time you go into that operating room,
00:28:03
like this is like a like a an axe that's
00:28:05
looming over your head in a way. Yeah.
00:28:07
every time you're on call, every time
00:28:08
you see a patient. Every time you see a
00:28:10
patient um you know I uh one of the
00:28:13
stories in the book was and I I was
00:28:15
recounting this last week. I can't
00:28:16
remember quite why but there was a
00:28:18
elderly man who came into hospital 85
00:28:21
years old I think he was came in with
00:28:23
abdominal pain and um really looked very
00:28:26
well and I scanned him investigated him
00:28:29
uh you know probably overcanned him
00:28:32
because he was elderly and lived alone
00:28:33
but there was nothing to find zero and
00:28:37
finally I decided he could go home cuz I
00:28:39
couldn't find anything although he still
00:28:41
he said he still had pain and uh then
00:28:44
the week after I get a letter from the
00:28:46
HDC saying he's been found dead at home.
00:28:50
Recount everything that happened in the
00:28:52
hospital. Recount everything that you
00:28:53
did. And I, you know, I went to my
00:28:56
friends and colleagues, actually,
00:28:57
colleagues and friends, and said, "Jesus
00:28:58
Christ, look what's happened. What did I
00:29:00
do wrong?" And they said, "Well, the
00:29:01
only thing is you overcame him. It
00:29:02
sounds like everything was normal." And
00:29:04
you and you sent him home. And then I
00:29:07
finally got the reason for his death and
00:29:09
he'd committed suicide at home.
00:29:11
So every time you see a patient actually
00:29:14
uh you know there's a risk. Yeah. Yeah.
00:29:18
And that that part of the book I love
00:29:20
how that was written. Um I think your
00:29:21
phrasing was something like he died of
00:29:22
suicide or and then you sort of correct
00:29:24
yourself and say more specifically
00:29:25
loneliness which is [ __ ] sad. It's
00:29:27
[ __ ] sad. So he kind of wanted to be
00:29:29
in hospital. Yeah. It was his and you
00:29:32
see that a lot. We do see that a lot
00:29:33
actually in the medical wards. Elderly
00:29:36
people especially in the winter. Well,
00:29:37
okay fine. They're they've got
00:29:38
respiratory illnesses, but they're
00:29:40
lonely. And uh actually uh somebody said
00:29:42
to me before Christmas actually, you
00:29:44
know, it's you have a lot of people in
00:29:46
hospital because it's Christmas and they
00:29:48
don't have family.
00:29:50
So yeah. What impact does all all this
00:29:52
have on your mental health?
00:29:54
Uh it's uh tough. I
00:29:59
mean, you know, I I'm happy to be
00:30:03
winding down. I'm happy to be leaving
00:30:05
it. I'm really happy to be leaving it. I
00:30:07
uh loved it and I love it. You know,
00:30:10
there's really uh there's so much reward
00:30:12
and uh and the people that you're
00:30:14
working with who have the same values as
00:30:17
you and we're all working to do better
00:30:19
and help people.
00:30:22
But we're really working in an
00:30:23
environment that's resource poor
00:30:26
increasingly with increasing
00:30:29
expectation both from the institution
00:30:31
and from patients because everyone wants
00:30:34
to live forever and there's not enough
00:30:36
resource anymore. Uh you know you know
00:30:40
you have 90 year olds who come to
00:30:42
hospital with a cancer and say why me?
00:30:44
Well, you know,
00:30:46
unfortunately, most people die of
00:30:48
cancer, and you got to 90 and that's
00:30:50
amazing. And, you know, there's a
00:30:51
20-year-old in the room next door who's
00:30:54
thinking the same thing. I have cancer.
00:30:55
Why me? Um, so, of course, there's a
00:30:58
societal expectation. I want more. I do
00:31:00
more for me. I want to live forever. I
00:31:02
want to be well.
00:31:04
And, uh, all that I think is tough.
00:31:07
there's increas an increasing amount of
00:31:08
pressure on on medical staff to do more
00:31:12
with better outcomes but with less. Um
00:31:16
so something's got to give, doesn't it?
00:31:18
Yeah, something's got to give and and
00:31:20
this is why uh I mean this is when
00:31:22
things go wrong actually. Uh you know,
00:31:25
you're trying to do multiple things at
00:31:27
once and uh you're tired and you're
00:31:30
you're making little compromises. Be it
00:31:33
a nurse in theater, be it, you know, you
00:31:36
know, we have to send patients home
00:31:38
because there's no beds. Okay. Well, I
00:31:40
would not ordinarily send this man home,
00:31:41
but there's somebody who's more sick who
00:31:43
needs that bed. And you're constantly
00:31:45
making those sorts of decisions. But in
00:31:47
terms of um like prioritizing or you
00:31:49
ring fencing your own mental health,
00:31:50
like how did you have therapy through
00:31:52
this time? Did you journal? Did you have
00:31:54
like a support group with other surgeons
00:31:56
or um I run a lot. So for me um exercise
00:32:00
and running is huge for my own mental
00:32:04
health and the book was part of it.
00:32:06
Actually the book initially was not a
00:32:08
book. It was cathartic. You know the the
00:32:11
the boys that come in in the very first
00:32:13
five pages you spoke about who land on
00:32:15
your table. You know nothing about them
00:32:17
but you're you know your hands are in
00:32:20
their abdomen. They're dying on the
00:32:22
table. They die on the table and you
00:32:24
know nothing of them. They just came.
00:32:26
They passed through and then you go to
00:32:27
bed. You lie in your sheets, they're
00:32:29
clean, you feel good, you wake up, you
00:32:30
have a coffee. I felt really I felt that
00:32:33
kind of disconnect. It was really hard
00:32:35
to reconcile. And uh this is where I
00:32:38
started writing, just kind of writing
00:32:40
about people, what they do, where they
00:32:42
come from, what his name was, etc., etc.
00:32:46
And uh so this is where all the patient
00:32:47
stories came from. And they sad stories,
00:32:50
funny stories, horrible stories, good
00:32:52
stories. And uh when I had enough words,
00:32:55
I gave it to an agent and the publisher,
00:32:58
the editor at Harper Collins picked it
00:33:00
up and she said, "Look, this is amazing,
00:33:02
but I want to know more about you
00:33:04
because at the end of this the day, you
00:33:06
know, and I cried reading this book, but
00:33:08
when the [ __ ] like how did this woman
00:33:11
come to be? How does she get through all
00:33:12
this [ __ ] in the day?" So, this is how
00:33:14
the book came to be. So, to answer your
00:33:16
question, but in a long rounded
00:33:17
longwinded way, actually chronicling is
00:33:20
huge for me. I I express better in
00:33:22
writing and uh yeah I mean you have
00:33:25
friends uh in uh in you know colleagues
00:33:29
who you talk to who you bounce ideas off
00:33:32
who say [ __ ] listen I did this do you
00:33:35
think that was right to do what should I
00:33:36
do what can I do better um but it's a
00:33:40
multi- you know multiffactorial kind of
00:33:43
contribution to mental wellness but
00:33:46
probably there should be more therapy
00:33:47
and I can think of many times where
00:33:49
young you know we're young when we're
00:33:50
dealing with death, uh, death on the
00:33:52
table, things that you've done wrong
00:33:54
that have contributed to death. I mean,
00:33:56
we're late 20s, early 30s. We're
00:33:58
consultants by the time before 35. What
00:34:01
kind of normal people I I mean, I'm sure
00:34:03
in the police force, you're expected to
00:34:05
have some form of counseling if you are
00:34:07
involved in a in a civilian death, I'm
00:34:10
sure. Um, but we're kind of expected to
00:34:13
just go on and the, you know, the
00:34:16
institution runs on a very fine
00:34:17
precipice and no, you can't cancel your
00:34:18
clinics. Yeah, there's that saying that
00:34:21
people have in most lines of work. It's
00:34:22
like, well, listen, we're not saving
00:34:24
lives. You guys kind of are, even though
00:34:27
you actually are. Um, and the family,
00:34:29
the personal stuff that you're talking
00:34:31
about, which ended up into the book. Um,
00:34:33
and from what I can gather, uh, this
00:34:36
sounds like it was quite hard for you
00:34:37
because you're quite a private person.
00:34:38
Yeah. Um, so not prone to oversharing.
00:34:42
Uh, we'll get to that, but first of all,
00:34:44
I've got my card called downstairs.
00:34:46
Okay.
00:34:48
Is this from people that pick up your
00:34:50
book? Is this the the most common
00:34:52
questions they have? Like
00:34:55
do you know what? It depends on the
00:34:57
gender of the person asking the
00:34:59
question. Really? Is it more more guys
00:35:01
that are intrigued? Yeah. Um this this
00:35:04
made me um I'm I'm thankful that I've
00:35:07
never had to go to hospital with
00:35:08
something um stuck on my You don't have
00:35:09
to share. I mean Yeah. But guy dudes are
00:35:12
weird, are you? Yeah, dudes are weird.
00:35:15
Dudes are weird. I love us. I'm like,
00:35:18
I'm pro guys, but [ __ ] we're weird.
00:35:20
Okay, by the way, this is the first book
00:35:22
um I've read that has this sentence in
00:35:24
it. I developed a passion for four skins
00:35:26
and prostates.
00:35:29
Yeah. Were you chuckling to yourself
00:35:31
when you typed that sentence out? Yeah.
00:35:34
I mean, it just like it comes to me. I'm
00:35:37
like, that's funny. That's a good idea.
00:35:39
Sometimes people say because actually my
00:35:42
the title of my book initially when I
00:35:45
sent it into Harper Collins was from
00:35:48
masturbation to death, you know,
00:35:51
illustrative of the breadth of things
00:35:53
that we see and they're like, you know,
00:35:55
Anica, it's not going to work. I know
00:35:57
you think it's funny, but uh I think
00:36:00
you're not going to get the readers that
00:36:01
you want. And then I said I told a
00:36:03
friend, a male friend, Argentinian, and
00:36:05
I said, "This is what I think the book,
00:36:07
the name of the book should be." He
00:36:08
goes, he said, "I would pick that up in
00:36:10
an instant." And I said, "Well,
00:36:11
actually, then it's the wrong title."
00:36:14
Oh, yeah. On call is a great, it's a
00:36:16
great name for it, and it's a it's a
00:36:17
fantastic book. Um, yeah. So, there's
00:36:20
like butt staff, penis, just basically
00:36:22
insertions. So, um, yeah, the butt
00:36:26
stuff. Some dude with concrete. Ah, yes.
00:36:30
A dude with concrete. So, uh, he, uh,
00:36:34
had prolapse actually. So his rectum was
00:36:36
falling out of his well or so he thought
00:36:39
and uh being you know a good old
00:36:42
practical New Zealand bloke from the
00:36:44
middle of New
00:36:46
Zealand. I mean what are you going to
00:36:48
think if wolves are falling over or if
00:36:50
wolves are weak? What are you going to
00:36:52
do? You're going to reinforce it. Not if
00:36:55
it's the the hole that's required for
00:36:58
pooping though. Well, it's funny.
00:37:00
There's a there's a saying to every for
00:37:02
every uh for a man with a hammer,
00:37:05
everything is a nail and he was builder.
00:37:08
So he works concrete. Um there's also um
00:37:12
like a uh the urethra. That's the the
00:37:15
hole in the penis. Yes. Um someone that
00:37:17
stuck a toothbrush down there. Yeah.
00:37:19
Bristle bristle in first. Bristle end
00:37:21
first. That's Well, well, I couldn't
00:37:24
even get a cotton cotton earbud down
00:37:26
Okay. I don't want to know what I
00:37:27
haven't tried, but I'm just No, but it
00:37:29
but and that's not the worst thing. I
00:37:31
mean, I've seen razor blades, but yeah,
00:37:32
you're right. I mean, it's years of
00:37:36
practice, right? It's not like you do it
00:37:38
the first time. You're you're going to
00:37:39
start to insert maybe the toothbrush
00:37:41
with the handle
00:37:42
first. Or maybe a cotton. I mean,
00:37:46
everybody Yeah, that's Wait, I'm
00:37:48
overthinking this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I
00:37:50
mean, you're the one that said cotton.
00:37:51
I'm like, okay, fine. Maybe that's
00:37:52
another um and with someone with a light
00:37:54
bulb in their bub. Yeah, I mean there
00:37:57
that that's pretty common actually. But
00:37:59
yeah, I mean what do you mean common?
00:38:01
What do you mean? It's not that it's not
00:38:03
common. You've seen it more than once.
00:38:05
Yeah, that's right. And it's not in it's
00:38:07
not infrequent. And God, you know,
00:38:09
you've probably crossed them on the
00:38:10
street.
00:38:12
But does does it break up there? No. No.
00:38:15
But it's like but uh I mean don't ask me
00:38:18
the technicalities of them doing it
00:38:20
because uh we don't ask and they don't
00:38:22
tell actually and and actually they do
00:38:24
not tell because when you ask them it's
00:38:27
always the same it's always the same
00:38:30
story. Well I was walking naked down the
00:38:32
stairs in the show in the shower and
00:38:36
there was a cucumber at the bottom of
00:38:37
the stairs or Barbie was standing at the
00:38:39
bottom of the stairs but nobody ever
00:38:41
says really has there been a Barbie.
00:38:44
Yeah. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. But that's not
00:38:47
the most technically challenging object
00:38:49
to get up there. But nobody ever says,
00:38:52
you know, I wanted to I was having fun
00:38:54
with my mates or, you know, my
00:38:55
girlfriend and I we were, you know,
00:38:57
being intimate. Actually, they're all
00:39:00
minding their own business walking down
00:39:02
the stairs. So that's it. Absolutely.
00:39:05
100%. I can't think of anybody that has
00:39:07
told me otherwise. And how how do you
00:39:09
guys go? There is one uh the guy with
00:39:12
drugs who was uh evading the police.
00:39:15
Well, we're not there to judge actually.
00:39:17
So yeah. So yeah, a guy's about to be
00:39:20
raided. So he's got some uh liquid
00:39:23
ecstasy from memory and he puts it in
00:39:25
like a big jar. That's right. He puts
00:39:26
the big jar up there and it's a small
00:39:28
quantity of drugs. It's a tiny tiny
00:39:31
quantity of drugs. I mean like a do jar
00:39:36
or like Yeah.
00:39:38
like maybe slightly wider and shorter. A
00:39:41
dolio jar might have been better because
00:39:43
at least maybe you could get a handle on
00:39:44
it, but it was like just
00:39:46
cylindrical. Uh but and the cops were
00:39:49
waiting. They're standing outside
00:39:51
waiting for this poor guy. Oh, shame.
00:39:54
It's just a shame. So, how how do you
00:39:57
guys how do you guys play play it when
00:39:59
one of these um patients presents
00:40:00
itself? I cuz I think if it was me just
00:40:02
projecting, if I'm in that situation,
00:40:04
I'd probably be like, "Look, I got to be
00:40:05
honest with you. I was, you know,
00:40:07
curious about butt stuff and this got
00:40:08
stuck up there and and you'd own it. Did
00:40:11
everybody hear that? If Don comes to
00:40:13
hospital and says you was walking down
00:40:15
his stairs,
00:40:17
he's lying. I think but I think you're
00:40:19
not fooling anyone like no one's buying
00:40:21
the story. No, but they're ashamed.
00:40:23
They're embarrassed. Yeah. Yeah. Like
00:40:26
absolute mortification. And you you
00:40:27
treat them with um just near dignity and
00:40:29
a straight face. Yeah. Totally. will
00:40:31
listen, we've got to put you to sleep
00:40:32
and uh and get it out and very very
00:40:34
occasionally we need to open you up. Um
00:40:37
but that's pretty rare. Oh yeah, and
00:40:39
there was the like the guy that had
00:40:40
raided the salad drawer.
00:40:44
Not not not one piece of produce. That's
00:40:46
right. That's right. In fact, and he
00:40:47
said that somebody else put it up there
00:40:49
in a party.
00:40:51
He was something like when I went to
00:40:53
sleep, they were in the veggie bin and I
00:40:55
woke up with stomach pain and they're
00:40:56
not there anymore. Yeah, that's right.
00:40:58
So he came in and said, "There are
00:41:01
vegetables missing." Okay. And so are
00:41:05
they there or I don't know. Someone may
00:41:07
have eaten them or they're in my bag.
00:41:08
Yeah. Exactly. I don't know. It's 50/50.
00:41:12
Um what about the fish hooks guy? The
00:41:15
guy swallowing fish hooks. Yeah. And
00:41:16
again, that's another that's like a guy
00:41:18
who's lonely, right? I mean, uh they
00:41:20
want to come to hospital. This was a guy
00:41:22
who'd been sw who said he'd been
00:41:24
swallowing fish hooks. X-ray him every
00:41:26
day. He's got fish hooks sitting in his
00:41:29
guts on on on plane x-ray. Every day
00:41:32
we're watching it move. It's moving a
00:41:34
little bit funny, but we don't question
00:41:35
it. And then there's no more fish hooks
00:41:39
left cuz we watch it until like it it
00:41:41
moves out till he's he's put it all out
00:41:43
basically. And he comes back in 24 hours
00:41:45
later and and we get another X-ray
00:41:48
because he says he swallowed more fish
00:41:49
hooks and they find that he's been um
00:41:52
taping the fish hooks to to his back and
00:41:56
the conventional X-ray is just two
00:41:58
dimensional so it looks like Oh, so he's
00:42:00
getting X-rayed with a shirt on. Oh,
00:42:02
okay. Oh, that's very sad. Well, yeah,
00:42:05
it is sad. Yeah. And you put him forward
00:42:07
for psychological evaluation
00:42:10
psychiatrist on call. Um Oh, and last
00:42:12
one. The the lady finally a lady. A lady
00:42:15
in the segment. Remind me. It might have
00:42:17
been an error. Yeah, the lady with um
00:42:19
the like the the skin tag. Ah yes, like
00:42:22
a bit of extra skin on the like a little
00:42:23
bit of extra
00:42:24
skin. Highend
00:42:27
escort. So tiny tiny almost not
00:42:31
noticeable at all. Could be, you know,
00:42:34
you or me. Mhm. And uh and it's just she
00:42:38
says it's disrupting her um her work,
00:42:42
her income, but actually and I'm going
00:42:44
to go back to JJ who at the beginning of
00:42:46
the show sees something and that's
00:42:49
normal, right? We this woman saw only
00:42:52
her anal tag and we see it a lot in
00:42:54
cosmetic surgery or after
00:42:56
reconstruction. There's like a tiny tiny
00:42:58
tiny little imperfection but it's all
00:43:00
that you see and it just gets
00:43:02
exaggerated and exaggerated to the point
00:43:03
that actually you just can't deal with
00:43:04
it. And that's uh that's human nature I
00:43:07
suppose. Yeah. Cosmetic specialists must
00:43:09
see that a lot, right? Yeah. Like what?
00:43:11
Yeah. Like people with their their nose
00:43:13
or whatever or whatever it happens to
00:43:15
be. Yeah. Absolutely. Just this kind of
00:43:17
dysmorphia just for self.
00:43:23
I am I am weird about my nipples though.
00:43:25
Are they weird nipples? Like that
00:43:27
they're strangely sort of protruding,
00:43:28
aren't they? Well, I mean you could have
00:43:32
a nipple reduction if you wanted.
00:43:35
I'm self-conscious about it, but not
00:43:36
enough to get a a reduction or anything.
00:43:40
Um, so um you you're back in New Zealand
00:43:43
um and you are doing some work uh in the
00:43:46
surgery field. Um but it's not your main
00:43:48
sort of bread and butter now. What was
00:43:50
how was the decision process to stop
00:43:52
working as a full-time surgeon?
00:43:55
Was it was it a moment or was it a long
00:43:57
slow sort of process? It was a long slow
00:44:00
process. There's a there's a
00:44:03
um well, I think I always knew I could I
00:44:07
could live not being a surgeon. For some
00:44:10
people, it's all they ever wanted to be.
00:44:12
And uh for me, I I I thought of other
00:44:15
things that I wanted to be, be it
00:44:16
medical or or other. And um so I had
00:44:19
that in my mind. I always knew that
00:44:21
maybe there was something else out there
00:44:22
for me. And then there is a story in the
00:44:25
book where there is a poor outcome. I
00:44:28
didn't operate on him, but he died on
00:44:30
the ward. And I thought to myself, [ __ ]
00:44:34
if I miss something major, I don't think
00:44:36
I can deal with it. I think I'm out. And
00:44:40
um this maybe was 2017,
00:44:43
2018, and I was waiting and waiting and
00:44:46
waiting and waiting for the coroner
00:44:47
report to come back to say that I'd
00:44:49
missed something major. And uh that
00:44:52
never eventuated but I I remember that
00:44:54
feeling and I and I don't I don't want
00:44:57
that again. Uh you know you you can't
00:45:00
sleep. You know, this is a 30ish year
00:45:03
old guy who had a major vehicle accident
00:45:07
accident. Uh was on the ward like really
00:45:09
really well and then found dead in his
00:45:11
bed and uh under my care and you know
00:45:14
you I just I just kept thinking about
00:45:16
him for months and months and months
00:45:18
wondering what the [ __ ] I did because
00:45:19
he's 35 and a 35year-old shouldn't be
00:45:21
found dead in the bed. Um is this the
00:45:24
guy that's um when you see him he's he's
00:45:26
in ICU but he's sitting up in bed and he
00:45:28
asks you when he's going to be able to
00:45:29
return to mixed martial arts. That's it.
00:45:31
Um, you know, and he, so he he looked
00:45:34
really well. Everything looked good. And
00:45:36
Jesus, you just never know. And, um, so
00:45:40
when that happened, I I thought to
00:45:41
myself, I think I need to be ready to
00:45:43
leave cuz if I found some if they found
00:45:46
something that was my fault, I'm not
00:45:48
sure I can I can continue. And so that
00:45:51
was like another nail in the
00:45:53
coffin. And, you know, just it's just
00:45:57
endless. actually the the public system
00:45:59
is endless. The demand is endless. The
00:46:02
sadness is huge. Um and then on top of
00:46:07
that I was dealing with my mother and uh
00:46:10
my own and when she died I dealt a lot
00:46:14
with my own guilt for not having been
00:46:16
there for her. M um and that was my own
00:46:19
choice actually because you know okay
00:46:21
some families they're pathologies and
00:46:23
you can't deal with family and actually
00:46:25
it's a relief to be able to work but
00:46:27
then at the end of the day [ __ ] you only
00:46:29
have one mother and when she's gone it's
00:46:31
too late and they found that difficult
00:46:33
to reconcile as well. So all of that
00:46:36
kind of made me really really ready to
00:46:41
leave. Um, and in amongst all of that, I
00:46:44
I started for a love, not because I was
00:46:48
really looking for something to leave
00:46:50
for, but uh, I had a dog with
00:46:54
dermatitis, and uh, there really wasn't
00:46:57
I wasn't happy with how she was being
00:46:58
managed. And we deal a lot with
00:47:00
dermatitis in the hospital. For anybody
00:47:02
with dermatitis or asthma, you
00:47:04
moisturize, moisturize, moisturize. And
00:47:05
they were putting my dog on drugs. and
00:47:08
and I real and I did a lot of research
00:47:10
and found that dogs and humans are
00:47:11
exactly the same in terms of the
00:47:12
pathology. So, we made moisturizing skin
00:47:14
care for dogs. Fear love, by the way.
00:47:16
I'm a big fan. And my little dog Kanye,
00:47:20
so so is he. My uh my partner, she'll
00:47:22
create like a doggy day spa and he just
00:47:24
sits there and she'll like rub it into
00:47:26
his paws. He just has his eyes like
00:47:28
about 80% shut. Yeah. Just living his
00:47:31
best life. But it just seems like such a
00:47:33
such a bizarre career pivot. But I can
00:47:36
see I can see it would be far more
00:47:37
rewarding and enjoy enjoyable in certain
00:47:39
ways. I'm not sure if it's far more
00:47:41
rewarding. I mean, it's totally
00:47:43
different in the hospital. You're you're
00:47:47
um I was going to say I can only think
00:47:49
of the French word, excuse me, but
00:47:50
you're very well framed, right? You
00:47:52
don't operate out of what you what the
00:47:56
protocol is. And uh and uh this is how
00:47:59
we're trained to be. We're tunnneled uh
00:48:01
in surgery. only you operate the the the
00:48:05
frame and uh this is what the management
00:48:07
relies on you not trying to get outside
00:48:10
the frame not trying to think outside
00:48:13
the the box um but it's different I mean
00:48:17
it's bloody hard it's challenging but
00:48:19
you're meeting people from all sorts of
00:48:21
walks of life and people who've left uh
00:48:23
highflying jobs corporate jobs to to
00:48:25
start new businesses or with new ideas
00:48:28
and and in France they're really there's
00:48:30
a they call it startup nation There's a
00:48:32
lot of money that goes to startups and
00:48:34
entrepreneurship. So there's this kind
00:48:36
of environment where people have the
00:48:38
appetite for it and they understand how
00:48:39
it works because it's hard. And when you
00:48:43
reflect on that um surgery part of your
00:48:45
life which is a big chapter um yeah how
00:48:47
do you look back at it? Is it with with
00:48:49
fondness? Is there a bit of bitterness
00:48:51
there or no bitterness? I love it. I
00:48:54
loved it. I met some amazing people both
00:48:57
colleagues and and patients actually
00:48:59
because I mean I suppose that was the
00:49:01
other inspiration for writing the book
00:49:02
is you have no idea what patients have
00:49:04
to put up with you know when they're on
00:49:07
their cancer journeys and when it
00:49:08
doesn't go well or even when it goes
00:49:10
well what they have to endure to get to
00:49:13
the end is enormous and so uh you know I
00:49:16
I hoped and I hope that people when they
00:49:18
get to the end of the book they have
00:49:20
that realization that [ __ ] like I have
00:49:23
no idea what you know my neighbor is
00:49:26
going through who was going through
00:49:27
cancer treatment the hospital and so I
00:49:29
know I look back at it with it was an
00:49:31
opportunity for me to to leave the
00:49:34
islands because I left on a scholarship
00:49:36
and uh and like it's it's amazing I mean
00:49:40
who gets to do that not not many people
00:49:42
yeah let's um let's zoom in on your
00:49:45
early years for a little bit so um
00:49:48
you're from Samoa y um yeah what are
00:49:50
your reflections on growing up in Samoa
00:49:52
was there lots of volleyball were you
00:49:53
good at volleyball
00:49:54
Every time I go to Samo, it just seems
00:49:56
like every every village every family
00:49:58
village is. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. People go
00:50:00
and do their jobs and then 3 4 in the
00:50:02
afternoon, everyone's playing
00:50:03
volleyball. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm not good
00:50:05
at volleyball. Great at net though.
00:50:07
We'll get to that. Yeah. Yeah. I played
00:50:08
net a lot. Um but no, I I mean I loved
00:50:11
it. It was uh I was born in New Zealand,
00:50:13
but then my parents moved us back when I
00:50:15
was around seven or eight. And you're
00:50:18
you're free range basically. I mean, the
00:50:20
weather's good. Uh life is good. It's,
00:50:22
you know, super chilled. It's nice. And
00:50:25
I'm grateful for that opportunity. I
00:50:26
really think it it changed me. I think I
00:50:29
would have been a different person had I
00:50:30
spent all my life in New Zealand. I
00:50:32
really I've I've really had, as you say,
00:50:34
three worlds, which is which is really a
00:50:37
gift. Yeah. What's your connection like
00:50:39
now to your to your culture?
00:50:42
Um, I love artis.
00:50:46
Oh, who doesn't? Who doesn't? But can
00:50:49
you can you speak much somehat? Uh yes,
00:50:53
but I it's totally like in the back of
00:50:55
my brain. I hope that it will kind of
00:50:58
come to life if I if I've if I have to
00:51:00
do it again. Yeah, cuz I had um Kevin
00:51:03
Mamu, the the famous All Black on the
00:51:05
podcast recently and um he almost
00:51:07
carries like a bit of guilt or shame
00:51:08
that he can't speak Son and he he
00:51:10
doesn't feel like he's a good son and to
00:51:12
be fair to him like he's he's never
00:51:14
lived there like he was born in um Tokoa
00:51:16
I think it was. Um but yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
00:51:21
It's just I'm curious to know how it
00:51:22
feels like um if you live elsewhere and
00:51:25
you know. No, I mean I um I I spoke it
00:51:29
at least, but of course I don't speak it
00:51:31
anymore. Um but what's the connection to
00:51:33
my culture? Actually, I do I still do a
00:51:36
lot um for Pacific Health. I um you
00:51:40
know, I publish a lot uh in medical
00:51:43
journals and do a lot of research for
00:51:45
Pacific outcomes and cancer. So, I'm
00:51:47
really I'm really driven to improve um
00:51:50
inequity, which we're not allowed to say
00:51:52
under the current government. But um is
00:51:55
that right? Is that a bad word? Equity
00:51:58
at need. We have to say need
00:52:00
populations. But uh yeah, I mean I'm
00:52:03
really driven to do to help help them be
00:52:08
better in terms of cancer outcomes,
00:52:10
access to good cancer care. So I hope
00:52:13
that I'm an advocate at least uh and
00:52:16
certainly my intent that's my intention
00:52:19
when I publish but outside of that
00:52:24
um yes one thing you share about um at
00:52:27
length in your book is um you know your
00:52:29
your relationship with your your parents
00:52:31
um your mom in particular um but also
00:52:34
your dad who was um quite abusive. Yeah.
00:52:38
Yeah. I mean is he is he still alive?
00:52:41
Yes. got dementia. Yeah. And and
00:52:43
terrible de like bedbound absolutely
00:52:46
horrible um endstage dementia. Uh but I
00:52:52
mean when I first when the book came out
00:52:56
nine or so months ago, one of the first
00:52:58
reviews that was on Tik Tok was it's
00:53:01
amaz it's an amazing book and Ana was
00:53:04
abused as a child. And I must say I was
00:53:07
shocked to hear it because I never felt
00:53:10
that way. And I spoke to my sisters and
00:53:14
my brother and actually well all of us
00:53:15
that grew up in the islands all of us
00:53:17
grew up and we shared stories about what
00:53:19
our fathers did and that was normal. You
00:53:22
know you kind of grow up with these
00:53:24
fathers who were very strict who go to
00:53:27
church every Sunday who um who know who
00:53:31
don't know any better and sure it's not
00:53:33
right. And okay, fine if we want to say
00:53:36
he was abusive. Yeah. I mean, he didn't
00:53:37
know how to manage his anger and he was
00:53:39
a horrible husband and not an amazing
00:53:42
father.
00:53:43
But even amongst us, the six of us,
00:53:46
sisters and brothers,
00:53:48
uh, you know, one or two feel they were
00:53:51
abused and most of us don't.
00:53:53
So, I mean,
00:53:56
I mean, well, there's there's a story in
00:53:58
there about, you know, your dad dragging
00:53:59
you out of a nightclub when you're 17,
00:54:01
which must be so humiliating and and um
00:54:04
and even punching you in front of your
00:54:05
friends. I mean, that's abuse. Yeah.
00:54:08
Well, you're right. Yeah. But, uh I
00:54:11
suppose we all shared it as friends cuz
00:54:14
all our cuz we were all going through
00:54:16
the same thing with our parents. I mean,
00:54:18
you know, it's kind of the way you're
00:54:20
brought up in the islands.
00:54:22
Not all not everybody has the same
00:54:25
experience, but it's not uncommon. You
00:54:27
know, I remember seeing uh my friend uh
00:54:30
being beaten on the porch by her mother
00:54:32
and uh you kind of all just laugh at it
00:54:34
and you share those stories at school.
00:54:36
You know, I I remember going to a
00:54:38
friend's house uh and there were holes
00:54:40
in the wall and there were holes in the
00:54:41
wall because her father was took a golf
00:54:43
club and was swinging at them and it
00:54:45
made big [ __ ] holes in the wall. And
00:54:48
uh you don't think, okay, it's abuse
00:54:52
because we're not we're not growing up
00:54:54
in an environment where somebody tells
00:54:55
us that's abuse. Actually, that's just
00:54:57
the way your dad is or you know that's
00:55:00
that's normal. And I suppose if and
00:55:01
similar things have happened to your
00:55:02
friends. It's just like a like lowkey
00:55:04
trauma bonding. Right. Right. Which is
00:55:06
not right. So you can understand with
00:55:08
with this in mind and you with with you
00:55:10
what you've seen since then like um you
00:55:12
know with through your medical career
00:55:14
now living in France like you know that
00:55:16
that's that's not a normal way to be
00:55:18
raised. So you can understand if there's
00:55:19
a disconnect between you and the person
00:55:21
you are now and your you know Samoan
00:55:23
roots and culture. Yeah. Well you know I
00:55:26
I just well I well I I'm better actually
00:55:29
than that. I don't I've never struck my
00:55:32
son. I I know it's not right. I know it
00:55:34
gets it doesn't get what I want out of
00:55:36
him. And at the end of the day, okay,
00:55:38
well, he wasn't. It was just his
00:55:41
weakness as a man. That's actually the
00:55:42
way I look at it. Do you think um do you
00:55:46
think your dad was proud of you? Yeah.
00:55:49
Yeah. I think he was proud I think he
00:55:51
was probably afraid of me.
00:55:54
Really? In what way? Just cuz you're so
00:55:56
smart, so intimidating or No, I think
00:55:57
so. I think I left home when I was 17
00:55:59
and I didn't need him anymore and then
00:56:01
every time I came back I think he just
00:56:03
probably felt less and less in my eyes.
00:56:07
Um I think might be wrong but uh no I
00:56:10
think he was proud. Suppose the more you
00:56:12
grew grew up the the you know he sort of
00:56:15
realized or came to accept the less
00:56:16
power and control he had over you.
00:56:18
Absolutely. Um but also you left at 17
00:56:20
you wanted to leave um earlier to go to
00:56:22
boarding school. That's right. I wanted
00:56:23
to leave when I was 13. Yeah. Um, so
00:56:26
with all this in mind, like what why did
00:56:27
you lean in to help him like in the
00:56:29
dementia unit? Like there's stories in
00:56:30
there about you you making an effort to
00:56:32
go and visit him feeding him stewed
00:56:34
apples. Um, even though was he even
00:56:36
aware that you were there visiting at
00:56:37
that time? No. And actually, you know, a
00:56:40
good friend said to me, why do you even
00:56:42
bother? But, you know, he is he was my
00:56:45
father and and I don't uh I don't hold
00:56:48
any anger. He I think exactly as I said
00:56:51
it was his weakness as a man that he was
00:56:54
like that. Uh he wasn't the best father.
00:56:57
He could only do as as as good as he
00:57:00
knew how to even if I think that was not
00:57:02
good enough. He you know I'm I hope I
00:57:05
hope that he just thought he was trying
00:57:07
his best. And most of us that's what we
00:57:10
do and people are only capable of doing
00:57:13
the best they can do because of the way
00:57:15
they grow up etc. So I don't have any
00:57:17
anger towards him. I didn't need him
00:57:19
from the age I was 17 and and uh he
00:57:22
didn't treat my mother well. And that's
00:57:24
my biggest, you know, hang up with him.
00:57:26
But he's a different man now. He's not
00:57:28
the same man. He's gone. He's in dilly
00:57:32
land. And uh and now it's horrible to
00:57:34
watch him because he is still a human
00:57:36
and he is still my father and he's
00:57:37
actually just a vegetable. Yeah. So you
00:57:41
leave Samara at the earliest possible
00:57:43
convenience. Why why med school? It
00:57:46
seems like you were really good at sport
00:57:47
like um you know Samoa uh team level
00:57:51
player. Um seems like you're incredibly
00:57:53
smart. What were the other options? What
00:57:56
else could you have done or what else
00:57:57
did you want to do? Well, I got a
00:57:59
scholarship and uh well as scholarships
00:58:02
work. It's either you're going to be a
00:58:04
doctor, you're going to be an
00:58:05
accountant, or you're going to be a
00:58:06
lawyer. And uh so actually I just chose
00:58:09
medicine. Is it really hard? How many
00:58:12
years is it? Six years. Yeah, but it's
00:58:14
not it's not just 6 years. It's 6 years
00:58:16
until you get your degree and then it's
00:58:18
endless after that, right? You enter
00:58:20
your junior doctor years and then your
00:58:22
senior doctor years and then your
00:58:23
consultant years. So, actually six years
00:58:25
is just the just the very beginning. And
00:58:28
you have no idea what it's going to be
00:58:31
like at the end. Just like you have no
00:58:33
idea what it's going to be like the
00:58:36
first time somebody says, "Well, you
00:58:38
what you've done is is the cause of this
00:58:40
man's death." M I mean you can never
00:58:43
imagine it. So we're illprepared. And
00:58:46
imagine that you go to med school when
00:58:47
you're 18. Oh my god, they're so young.
00:58:50
They're so young. It's um yeah, it's
00:58:53
such a burden of responsibility, isn't
00:58:55
it? It's incredible. And then um yeah,
00:58:58
towards the end of med school in your
00:58:59
final year, um that's when you get
00:59:01
pregnant, right? Um first of all, um so
00:59:04
you've you've done all this train like
00:59:06
five and a half years training or
00:59:07
whatever at this point. How are you 26
00:59:09
weeks pregnant before notice?
00:59:11
Come on, do better.
00:59:13
Denial. Denial. Morning sickness or
00:59:16
nothing? No. Were you showing at all or?
00:59:19
No, but I was a bit fuller. Like my
00:59:20
chest was a little bit fuller and I was
00:59:22
eating bags of apples. Like I never ate
00:59:25
bags of apples before. Like a craving.
00:59:27
Like a craving. Huge. And um but of
00:59:31
course it's I mean denial is a powerful
00:59:34
powerful thing.
00:59:36
So I was a bit tired. Uh I was in the
00:59:39
World Cup team to go to Jamaica, the
00:59:40
World Cup that year, Neville. And I went
00:59:42
to see my doctor and uh said uh I'm
00:59:46
tired. He said, "Okay, I'm going to do
00:59:47
some blood tests." Called me later that
00:59:49
afternoon, said you're pregnant. And I
00:59:51
said, "I I can't have the baby. I I
00:59:53
can't. I'm finishing med school. I'm I'm
00:59:56
I'm playing net ball. Uh and I've got
00:59:59
big things to do in my life. I can't."
01:00:01
And he said, "Fine, just come in. Well,
01:00:03
actually, I'm booking you for a
01:00:05
termination next week on Thursday, but
01:00:08
go get dated on Monday. And so I and he
01:00:11
said, "Don't look at the ultrasound
01:00:13
screen." And I went and I had my and I
01:00:16
was lying there and the lady put the
01:00:17
probe on my belly and uh the first thing
01:00:19
she says is, "Oh my god, look at his
01:00:22
arms and his legs and his heartbeat."
01:00:23
And actually, well, at the end of the
01:00:25
day, it was too late. And I am a firm
01:00:27
believer that things happen for a
01:00:28
reason. Yeah. Yeah. So, this was in your
01:00:30
third trimester that you found 26 weeks.
01:00:32
That's the third trimester, right?
01:00:34
If it was early enough, do you think um
01:00:36
Yeah. You would have terminated? Yeah.
01:00:38
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm happy that the
01:00:40
decision finally wasn't in my hands. Of
01:00:42
course. Of course. Um Yeah. How did you
01:00:46
manage the Sorry, just the the net ball
01:00:47
as well. Like, how did you So, I wasn't
01:00:49
allowed to go. Yeah. Yeah. You weren't
01:00:50
allowed to go, but I'm just wondering
01:00:51
how you manage all the the workload
01:00:54
that's required with um medical studies
01:00:56
as well as um you know, being a high
01:00:57
performance athlete.
01:01:00
like like it's um it's a lot. I'm in a
01:01:04
what you did, but it's like how did you
01:01:05
manage it? Yeah, it was tough. But in
01:01:08
med school, well, you can. It's when you
01:01:10
become a doctor that you can't anymore.
01:01:11
I mean, med school, okay, fine. You're
01:01:13
just at school from 8 to 5 studying and
01:01:16
uh and running. But I mean, there are a
01:01:18
lot of athletes who do that, right? a
01:01:20
lot of uh lawyers in training, um you
01:01:23
know, doctors in training who who are
01:01:26
all blacks and uh and professional sport
01:01:28
players, aren't there in New Zealand? I
01:01:30
think so. I think we're pretty
01:01:31
supportive in general of of uh elite
01:01:33
sports people. So, um yeah, you have
01:01:37
your son, Old Rich. Yeah. So, he's you
01:01:40
give birth on a Monday and then on
01:01:42
Friday you have your final exam. Yeah.
01:01:44
So I was doing uh pediatrics at the time
01:01:46
kind of perfectly timed and I yeah I
01:01:50
actually the exit exam was on the Friday
01:01:53
and I said uh well listen I just had a
01:01:56
baby can I postpone the exam and they
01:02:00
said no you have to sit it. So of you
01:02:03
know when when you're 20 god how old was
01:02:05
I 21
01:02:06
22 trying not to make waves cuz [ __ ] who
01:02:09
else is having babies in med school? Not
01:02:11
many. and uh you just do it. Of course,
01:02:14
if I think back, I you know, well, I
01:02:16
should have put up a fight because if I
01:02:18
had a cold or a migraine, I could have
01:02:21
had that pushed, right? They would have
01:02:23
been more compassionate.
01:02:26
Yeah. Yeah. How do you not have a chip
01:02:29
on your shoulder about that? That feels
01:02:31
really really mean-spirited in a way,
01:02:33
doesn't it? Yeah. I mean, it's it's
01:02:35
pretty poor. I mean, some guy who makes
01:02:37
a decision who doesn't know any better
01:02:39
really. I try not to carry ships.
01:02:42
Turn it to what? Carrie chips. Car
01:02:44
chips. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah.
01:02:46
When you look back now, like, are you
01:02:48
proud of your younger self? Do you like
01:02:50
do you wonder how you got through it?
01:02:51
Yeah. Yeah. I'm pretty proud. But I
01:02:53
mean, and I'm going to talk on a more
01:02:56
global female sort of vision. I think
01:02:59
women do this all the time. And uh, you
01:03:02
know, you you're just kind of accepting
01:03:03
that there are barriers and you got to
01:03:05
jump them. You got to work a little bit
01:03:07
harder to prove that you can get through
01:03:09
them. is not necessarily right, but we
01:03:11
do, you know, I've got a lot of young
01:03:13
colleagues who have children in training
01:03:17
or in young consultancy and and uh it's
01:03:21
[ __ ] hard work, but you just kind of
01:03:23
double down, work doubly hard to try to
01:03:27
manage your home and your life and your
01:03:29
professional your job so that so that
01:03:32
people don't see how much you're
01:03:35
impacted. M um and that's not exclusive
01:03:38
to medicine actually. It's it's across
01:03:39
the board. Uh you know after the book
01:03:41
I've had women um like 99% women send
01:03:46
messages uh engineers uh you know all
01:03:49
these highprofile professions and
01:03:50
actually it doesn't even have to be that
01:03:52
you know the any woman who is trying to
01:03:54
work and raise a family knows that
01:03:57
actually well the the barriers are a bit
01:04:00
higher. Yeah. You you've got a great
01:04:03
relationship with your son now by the
01:04:04
sounds of things. There's a a quote in
01:04:06
the book towards the end. Uh he is a
01:04:08
brave and he is brave and gentle and he
01:04:10
made me better. He made my life worth
01:04:13
something that he still thinks the world
01:04:14
of me is a miracle. Yes. Yeah. This is
01:04:17
true. So nice. Um you must have I can't
01:04:20
imagine the mom guilt you had uh like
01:04:22
when he was young and I still you're
01:04:24
always tired and sleepd deprived anyway
01:04:26
and then Yeah. Plus he's so accepting of
01:04:28
it. He just knows. He knows his mother's
01:04:30
weaknesses and uh as he said to me two
01:04:33
weeks ago, you're just so outside the
01:04:35
box. I can't predict what's going to
01:04:37
happen. And that's not that's very
01:04:40
difficult for me. And of course, it must
01:04:41
be tough for him. We don't live a
01:04:43
conventional life. And uh we've moved a
01:04:46
lot. And of course, I think this is
01:04:48
amazing because I never had the
01:04:49
opportunity to do to do that. But he
01:04:52
thinks, well, I would have just liked a
01:04:54
normal life. Thanks. for the mother.
01:04:58
You know, it's good that you got a good
01:04:59
relationship. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so your
01:05:02
mom died of died of cancer. Um, and this
01:05:04
is sort of a thread through through the
01:05:06
book. So, she um fell into a coma on
01:05:09
Christmas Day and then um died rather
01:05:12
peacefully sounding by all accounts,
01:05:13
four days later.
01:05:15
Um, do you remember your last
01:05:17
conversation with her?
01:05:20
Not really. Yeah, I mean I remember that
01:05:22
every time she was alert because in
01:05:25
those last two weeks um she was sort of
01:05:28
in and out of she wasn't very alert. She
01:05:30
had a her liver was packed full of
01:05:33
metastatic disease so she was jaundest
01:05:35
and and so she wasn't very clear or
01:05:37
lucid. I remember that I was always
01:05:39
trying to tell her god I'm going to miss
01:05:42
you you know. Um, and actually maybe the
01:05:47
last lucid conversation was when I asked
01:05:51
her, "What song do you want us to play
01:05:53
at your funeral?" You know, "What do you
01:05:55
want us to do?" And um, maybe that was
01:05:59
the most that's that was the
01:06:01
conversation I remember the most. But I
01:06:03
mean it was such a tough time and uh and
01:06:05
I had a lot of
01:06:07
anger and I tried to spend as much time
01:06:10
away outside of the house working and uh
01:06:14
so probably of course one of my regrets
01:06:16
is that I never gave her the opportunity
01:06:18
to have a conversation with me because
01:06:19
probably it wasn't I just did not allow
01:06:21
her to have a conversation with me. I
01:06:24
had a lot of of a lot of anger and
01:06:26
probably that book has the book has
01:06:27
helped me be cathartic and you know when
01:06:29
the book came out I have friends who
01:06:30
said oh my god I didn't know your mother
01:06:32
was sick can you imagine I was working
01:06:34
with people every day and they didn't
01:06:36
know my mother was living with me having
01:06:37
chemotherapy
01:06:39
um and I just was so good at
01:06:42
compartmentalizing I suppose yeah this
01:06:44
this is what I've referenced a couple of
01:06:45
times in this chat like you had these
01:06:47
massive massive walls up um and now
01:06:49
you've got this book out where you just
01:06:51
like word vomiting
01:06:53
all your deepest most intimate secrets
01:06:56
out there. Um,
01:06:59
yeah. Yeah. The stuff about your mom,
01:07:02
I feel like you got there in the end,
01:07:04
right? Like it's feels like you were
01:07:06
angry and frustrated. I don't know
01:07:08
because because she didn't do enough to
01:07:09
protect you or because she didn't leave
01:07:10
your father. Was that part of Yeah. All
01:07:12
of the above. And not even me. I think
01:07:14
it was my my siblings. And uh God just
01:07:19
but she worked her she worked all her
01:07:21
life to look after her children, you
01:07:22
know, and and uh she suffered. She was a
01:07:25
long-suffering wife and probably that's
01:07:27
that was why I was angry actually. She
01:07:29
was a long-suffering wife. Why why um I
01:07:32
don't know. You'll just be speculating
01:07:33
here, but why why didn't she leave your
01:07:35
dad? Like she would have had your your
01:07:36
full support, you know, emotional and
01:07:38
probably financial as well. Was it like
01:07:40
a like a a religious thing? Was it a
01:07:42
sense of duty? Do you think she actually
01:07:43
loved him? Was it fair? No, I think it's
01:07:45
it was a sense of duty. Uh and uh I
01:07:49
think she just believed in in being a a
01:07:52
wife and the best wife that she could
01:07:54
possibly be. And maybe it's
01:07:56
generational. Maybe that's a
01:07:58
generalization. But I do think uh it has
01:08:01
something to do with it because of
01:08:03
course we wouldn't accept it these days.
01:08:06
Um but no, I think she just had this
01:08:08
duty uh probably culturally and she was
01:08:12
incredibly religious. So
01:08:15
You asked me at the beginning of the
01:08:16
chat if I cried while reading it. Um,
01:08:18
yeah, there's probably the saddest
01:08:20
moment for me and I I was probably sad
01:08:22
for you more than anything else. Um, you
01:08:24
talk about the relationship that your
01:08:26
siblings have with your mom and how
01:08:27
they, you know, lie down with her in bed
01:08:28
and, you know, spoon or whatever. Then
01:08:31
there was a time where your mom wanted
01:08:32
you to sit next to her and you
01:08:33
deliberately sat on a far away chair.
01:08:36
And reading the book, I could I could
01:08:37
sense you wanted to have that
01:08:39
relationship. there's just some sort of
01:08:41
like invisible barrier that held you
01:08:43
back. Yeah. Just too much, you know,
01:08:45
just time and too many things happen and
01:08:48
too much water under the bridge, right?
01:08:49
And it's then it's just too far gone.
01:08:51
And uh you can't just sort of create
01:08:53
that relationship if it's not
01:08:54
pre-existing, can you? Right. It was
01:08:57
just uh there was there was too much
01:08:59
anger and she couldn't you know probably
01:09:01
she was angry at me and uh because I
01:09:03
wasn't there for her when she was going
01:09:05
through the hardest point of her
01:09:06
relationship with her husband and I I
01:09:08
couldn't get over her not just not just
01:09:11
leaving.
01:09:12
Do you um are you at peace with with how
01:09:15
the relationship with your mommy ended
01:09:16
up or like when you write write
01:09:18
something like that and think back on it
01:09:19
like do you wish damn why didn't I just
01:09:20
get over myself? Well, of course I have
01:09:22
regrets, but um I think I'm at peace
01:09:25
because actually I've never spoken about
01:09:27
my mother so much in my life like as
01:09:30
since the release of the book, right?
01:09:32
You know, is it okay? Yeah, it's good.
01:09:34
And it's great. And uh you know, people
01:09:37
say, "Well, what was who was the biggest
01:09:39
what was the biggest motivation in your
01:09:41
life?" And actually, well, it was my
01:09:42
mother because she woke up at 2:00 a.m.
01:09:45
every morning to work for her family and
01:09:48
and I saw that firsthand and and she
01:09:50
would just give the clothes off her back
01:09:52
for for anybody. And uh so, of course, I
01:09:56
look at her with admiration now and I
01:09:58
speak about her all the time in a way
01:09:59
that I never did in my life, ever. So, I
01:10:02
feel in some way I'm closer to her. And
01:10:06
um you know, my cousin last week said to
01:10:09
me, "When I speak to you, it reminds me
01:10:10
of of your mom." And so, actually,
01:10:13
probably we're we're just two alike.
01:10:17
And do you still um cuz she said to you
01:10:19
something like, "Um, yeah. Once I'm
01:10:21
gone, when the clouds pass and you see
01:10:23
the sun, think of me." Yeah. Do you?
01:10:26
Yes. When I see a rainbow, we were
01:10:28
driving in Sicily in uh over after
01:10:31
Christmas and there was a beautiful,
01:10:32
beautiful rainbow. And of course, I
01:10:33
think it's my mother. But it took me a
01:10:35
long time to see that. Like it took me
01:10:37
months and months to be happy to see the
01:10:40
clouds and the sunshine and the
01:10:42
rainbows. I just was too sad to see it
01:10:44
for a very very long time. Which I
01:10:46
suppose is normal normal grief. And uh
01:10:48
but now uh
01:10:51
no I I see I see a rainbow and I think
01:10:54
it's my mother. And sometimes when I
01:10:55
need divine intervention I say please
01:10:57
mom look after me.
01:11:00
That's so sweet. Yeah. And there's a a
01:11:02
line in there that I really like. only
01:11:04
now do I see the beauty in our family.
01:11:05
Yeah. Um, every family's got their own
01:11:08
[ __ ] going on. Yeah. But sometimes it's
01:11:10
just too late by the time you realize
01:11:11
that actually it's special and probably
01:11:14
that happens happens more often than
01:11:16
not, you know, and when you're you you
01:11:18
kind of have this family which is, you
01:11:20
know, pathological cuz I've decided that
01:11:22
most families have their pathologies and
01:11:24
you always take the role of you and
01:11:27
whatever you were in your family. So you
01:11:29
can't get over it actually cuz you just
01:11:31
will be the dom in your family. Where
01:11:34
were you in the birth order? Number one.
01:11:37
Oh, okay. Oh, so you're the matriarch of
01:11:40
the family now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um our
01:11:43
families, they complicated things.
01:11:46
That's horrible. Everyone Yeah. Yeah.
01:11:48
Every everyone's family is [ __ ] up in
01:11:50
their own way. Exactly. Exactly. And
01:11:52
unfortunately, it's difficult to grow
01:11:54
out of that role because you'll always
01:11:56
take the same role you are in as a son
01:11:59
or a father or a brother. Actually, it
01:12:02
it's hard to change out of that. It is.
01:12:05
There's a lot to unpack with that.
01:12:09
You and I will maybe we can get a bold
01:12:11
on a there. Yeah, exactly. Um okay, so
01:12:14
let's talk about life now. So, um fur
01:12:15
love. So, you're you're still doing some
01:12:17
some surgical stuff. You're keeping your
01:12:19
you're dipping your toe in that water.
01:12:20
Yeah, a little bit. But is that like a
01:12:22
muscle memory thing? Like if you if you
01:12:24
don't use it, you lose it. No, actually
01:12:26
it's like riding a bike, right? Yeah.
01:12:28
It's like I mean obviously you've got to
01:12:30
just be a bit more careful and think,
01:12:32
you know, I might have rushed in and
01:12:33
done something in 20 minutes, but now
01:12:35
I'm just like, "Okay, fine. Just take my
01:12:37
time." But surprisingly, it's like
01:12:40
riding a bike. I mean, we've done it. We
01:12:41
did it for years and we did thousands
01:12:44
and thousands. You had to in training.
01:12:46
That was part of it. just have to have
01:12:48
that, you know, automaticity kind of.
01:12:51
Um, so that's that. But no, now I'm
01:12:54
pretty much full-time for love. Um, and
01:12:58
we've launched in France. We're in New
01:12:59
Zealand. France, we've been launching
01:13:01
through the vets. And, uh, they've taken
01:13:04
to it so well in France because it's
01:13:06
because they understand skinincare and,
01:13:08
uh, of course the dog is a huge part of
01:13:10
their of their life. So, yeah. Oh,
01:13:13
you're doing wonderful with that. And it
01:13:14
must be um yeah quite satisfying. I I I
01:13:18
said before I I thought it might be more
01:13:19
rewarding than your previous job. Um and
01:13:22
I suppose what I mean in that respect is
01:13:23
that you you know you're dealing with
01:13:25
dogs and dogs are dog owners and I think
01:13:26
dogs are just the best thing ever. Like
01:13:28
we don't deserve dogs. And therefore dog
01:13:30
owners are happy. Yeah. They're just
01:13:33
they're just happy and they want to do
01:13:34
the best for their dog. Yeah. And your
01:13:37
French husband um Krishna. Yeah. Yeah.
01:13:39
So he's one of the world's leading um
01:13:41
breast surgeons and some say he's a
01:13:43
Daniel Craig lookalike.
01:13:46
Yes. So where did you guys meet? So a
01:13:49
bit boring actually. A conference. There
01:13:51
was a conference in Nottingham and uh
01:13:54
which is not the most amazing part of
01:13:56
the world but we were there at a meeting
01:13:57
and he was
01:13:58
lecturing and uh we crossed paths there
01:14:01
crossed in the corridor. You know how it
01:14:03
is. And then he uh there was a meeting
01:14:05
in New Zealand and we invited him and he
01:14:07
flew over and you know in typical French
01:14:10
manner he said uh he'd flown over to see
01:14:12
me. So there you go. There's his
01:14:14
history. So he's he's like a breast
01:14:15
specialist and you you are as well
01:14:17
right? Yeah. Um so I I don't know if
01:14:20
this is an easy question to ask or not,
01:14:21
but what are the most common questions
01:14:23
um patients ask about their breasts?
01:14:26
Well, I mean most people who see us
01:14:29
because he's actually breast cancer,
01:14:30
they are they're breast cancer. So
01:14:34
really, it's a, you know, we're talking
01:14:36
about what what surgery they're going to
01:14:38
have, what it's going to what the
01:14:39
treatment's going to entail. I mean,
01:14:42
they're not so worried about the
01:14:44
cosmetic outcome at that point. Of
01:14:46
course, we get crazy questions like
01:14:48
women who want to be bigger, who uh who
01:14:52
come in with a picture of uh some double
01:14:54
D blonde on a Miami, you know, in
01:14:57
Florida on the beach somewhere in a
01:14:59
white bikini and that's crazy. But
01:15:02
actually most of the time in breast
01:15:03
cancer then it's pretty it's pretty cut
01:15:06
and dried. Yeah. And you like your
01:15:08
running e. What sort of role does
01:15:10
running play in your life these days? I
01:15:12
adore running. I mean the life I mean in
01:15:15
Paris it's tough
01:15:16
because it's not sport is not every day
01:15:19
there. You know here you see people
01:15:21
running, you people surfing, cycling and
01:15:23
in Paris it's not quite the same. It's
01:15:24
more like a cigarette in a cafe. But um
01:15:28
I run every day and you know we spoke
01:15:31
before about the clarity that it brings
01:15:33
and and for me yeah it's it's clarity
01:15:37
when there's a lot of noise in my head
01:15:39
or when I'm not sure there's a lot of
01:15:41
stress then then when I run you know I I
01:15:44
have these moments of clarity I think
01:15:46
just the unimportant stuff just drops
01:15:48
out of my head and and I come back with
01:15:50
a with a renewed vigor or focus. So yeah
01:15:53
I run a lot in Paris. Uh I joined a
01:15:56
running club but it was incredibly
01:15:57
difficult to find because um because
01:16:00
it's not it's not a strong culture
01:16:02
there. Uh and uh a few years ago I did
01:16:06
the root brand. I think this the same
01:16:08
year you did the root or maybe you've
01:16:09
done it many times but you know I
01:16:11
remember that sort of 35 33ks and it was
01:16:16
just one of the best runs that I ever
01:16:19
did. I mean, it was bloody tough, but um
01:16:24
there's just something so rewarding
01:16:26
about it. Yeah. Road road running like
01:16:29
um just running running from, you know,
01:16:31
5ks, however far you're running from
01:16:32
home. I find that a really good way to
01:16:34
um just get the endorphins out and also
01:16:37
almost like um wipe the slate clean in
01:16:40
your head, just like clear your head. Um
01:16:42
there's obviously good physical benefits
01:16:43
as well, but the mental health benefits
01:16:45
are exceeding for me. But trail running
01:16:47
like the root burn. Um
01:16:49
the thing I like about that, you just
01:16:51
have to be in the moment. Like you have
01:16:52
to you can't think about anything else.
01:16:54
Like you're looking at where where your
01:16:55
next foot strike's going to be or else
01:16:56
you're going to roll an ankle or
01:16:57
something and then hope that you're
01:16:59
running behind you so you can administer
01:17:01
some medicine.
01:17:03
No, it's not way back though. Yeah.
01:17:05
Yeah. Yeah. Um just a quick a couple of
01:17:08
quick easy ones to finish with. What do
01:17:09
you think your best and worst habits
01:17:11
are?
01:17:12
[Laughter]
01:17:14
It's probably the same. Um, okay.
01:17:19
My I'm a bit of a perfectionist, so I'll
01:17:23
I constantly pick and I think it's one
01:17:27
of my best habits because I uh because
01:17:31
it drives me because I I can
01:17:34
work non-stop from whatever and in
01:17:38
France in Paris I do because I work with
01:17:39
New Zealand and I work with Europe. I
01:17:41
can work non-stop. Um, but at the same
01:17:44
time, it's incredibly frustrating for
01:17:46
people around me. So, for them, it's my
01:17:48
worst habit, but for me, it's my best.
01:17:51
The reason I I I'm free. I You know
01:17:54
what? I feel sort of this the same way.
01:17:56
Like, for example, I had a podcast
01:17:57
yesterday and it didn't go as as well as
01:17:59
what I hoped. And yesterday afternoon, I
01:18:01
was at the sale GP like in these um $179
01:18:05
tickets. And in the back of my mind, I
01:18:06
was just thinking about what I should
01:18:07
have done differently or how I could
01:18:08
have played the podcast differently. And
01:18:10
it's like, as I said to you before, it's
01:18:11
not saving lives or anything, but it's
01:18:13
um it's quite exhausting, eh, being a a
01:18:15
perfectionist or having a growth mindset
01:18:17
or type A or whatever you want to call
01:18:19
it. No, it's very exhausting and it's
01:18:21
actually exhausting for people around us
01:18:23
as well. But I mean, it's harder for for
01:18:26
us. I mean, imagine being in our heads.
01:18:28
So, do do you have any personal work on?
01:18:31
You mean things that I work on? Yeah.
01:18:34
Oh, you know, I think uh especially with
01:18:37
starting a new business, it's tough
01:18:39
because the reward is not the same as
01:18:41
doing surgery. In surgery, you're you're
01:18:43
seeing 30 patients in your clinic.
01:18:45
You're operating. You've got instant
01:18:46
reward.
01:18:47
And in business, it's totally different
01:18:50
because you don't have that instant
01:18:51
reward. You don't know if it's going
01:18:52
well. You're bloody hoping things go
01:18:55
well. And and then you feel I just I
01:18:57
just felt like I couldn't have a break.
01:18:59
Uh I I didn't deserve a break. This is
01:19:01
my big thing. I, you know, I I I worked
01:19:03
so hard to get to where I am today. And
01:19:06
so it's my thing. It's the way that I
01:19:08
succeed. I I can work all day and all
01:19:10
night. Um, and when you don't have that
01:19:13
feedback in business, you feel like
01:19:15
you're not achieving or you're not
01:19:16
getting to the end or you don't deserve
01:19:18
it. There's no end point. And uh, I just
01:19:22
decided that actually, bloody hell, I'm
01:19:25
so lucky. I live in Paris. I've come so
01:19:27
far. We're just going to take each day
01:19:30
as it comes. You never know what's going
01:19:31
to happen. And New Year's resolution was
01:19:35
just, you know, we say so many times,
01:19:37
um, I'd like to see this. I want to I
01:19:40
want to go there. And actually, I'm just
01:19:42
going to do it. So, you know, just just
01:19:45
sees the day. Just try
01:19:48
and, you know, just we're bloody lucky
01:19:50
to have health actually. You have no
01:19:53
idea how quickly things can just change.
01:19:55
Well, yeah. Yeah. I mean, you're only
01:19:56
too aware of that. But yeah, there's
01:19:58
there's a quote that I really like. It
01:19:59
goes something like um a person that's
01:20:01
has their health can have many wishes,
01:20:02
unlimited wishes. A person that doesn't
01:20:04
have their health only has one wish.
01:20:06
Yeah. Yeah. So stay alive. Um but are
01:20:09
you are you good at like being in the
01:20:10
moment and appreciating that? Like I
01:20:12
know you live in an apartment with a
01:20:13
view of the Eiffel Tower like like are
01:20:15
you good at like looking at that in the
01:20:17
morning and going, "Fuck me. This girl
01:20:19
from Samoa is Yeah. Yeah. Yes and no.
01:20:21
Yeah. Of course. When I look at the
01:20:22
Eiffel Tower, I'm like [ __ ] it. This is
01:20:24
amazing. Like I never thought I would be
01:20:26
here." But then I'm always like, "Okay,
01:20:28
what's next?" And my husband hates it.
01:20:31
I'm like, "What's next?" Okay, I can't
01:20:33
wait until I do this or I can't wait
01:20:35
until I see this. So that's the thing. I
01:20:36
have to stop, you know? I'm always like,
01:20:38
"I can't wait to go and do this." Which
01:20:42
So I'm always waiting for the next
01:20:43
thing. Yeah.
01:20:46
Yeah. There's parallels. Yeah. Do you
01:20:48
have any What are your regrets? You have
01:20:50
any regrets?
01:20:52
Well, probably it's going to be uh it's
01:20:54
going to be related to to my mother
01:20:57
really and not not being strong enough
01:21:00
to have spent the time to have sat next
01:21:02
to her cuz actually it would have just
01:21:03
made her so happy. You know, why the
01:21:06
[ __ ] didn't I just go and sit next to
01:21:07
her when she asked me to come and sit
01:21:08
next to her on the bed? And I didn't do
01:21:10
that. It must have hurt her. Um you
01:21:12
know, we're just so stubborn sometimes.
01:21:14
Well, not we, but me. And um No, all of
01:21:17
us. All of us. Yeah. And actually, well,
01:21:19
why didn't I just do that? It would have
01:21:21
taken no effort on my part and it would
01:21:23
have made her so happy and sometimes
01:21:25
we're just so wrapped up in ourselves
01:21:27
that we just can't just can't give. Um
01:21:31
so that would be my biggest regret not
01:21:33
sitting on that bed. Yeah. And I think
01:21:35
for a lot of people that are listening
01:21:38
to this today that have you know perhaps
01:21:40
elderly elderly parents or you know
01:21:43
parents of any age you know it just
01:21:46
makes you realize you still have time to
01:21:48
fix these relationships. Um because the
01:21:50
last thing you want is them dying and
01:21:51
you having regrets, I guess, for selfish
01:21:53
reasons as much as anything else. Yeah.
01:21:55
But actually, well, I was ready for my
01:21:57
mom to die, but I I wasn't ready for my
01:22:01
mother to die. I think you can't imagine
01:22:03
what it's like to lose a mother until
01:22:05
you've lost your mother. She's the
01:22:07
person that brought you into this world.
01:22:09
And you know, she might have been great
01:22:10
or she might she might not have been
01:22:12
great. people do the best that they can
01:22:14
do with the information they have and
01:22:16
you know with with the environment they
01:22:18
grew up in um this what I believe people
01:22:21
always try to do their best and and uh
01:22:23
you only have one mother and when she's
01:22:26
gone she's gone.
01:22:28
If if there could be three words that
01:22:30
you'd like you know your siblings or
01:22:32
your husband or your son or your friend
01:22:34
to use to describe you what would they
01:22:36
be? Kind.
01:22:40
Definitely kind.
01:22:41
Um,
01:22:43
funny, you know, make people happy, make
01:22:46
people
01:22:47
laugh. Um, and this is probably a little
01:22:51
ego. Intelligent. Intelligent. Oh,
01:22:55
no. And last one. Last one. Are you
01:22:58
proud of yourself? Yeah. Yeah, I am. I
01:23:01
mean, I'm not who I am because of me. uh
01:23:04
you know my mother was huge in my in my
01:23:08
frame and you know my father for all his
01:23:10
weaknesses and actually everybody that
01:23:12
we cross contributes to the person that
01:23:14
you are. Mhm. So yeah, I'm I'm bloody
01:23:17
proud cuz I came from nothing. I really
01:23:19
came from nothing. You know, in the book
01:23:21
I talk about all six of us sleeping in
01:23:24
one bed and one bedroom for years. We
01:23:27
were we didn't we had nothing. So yeah.
01:23:30
Yeah. I'm proud. Six people in one room.
01:23:33
It sounds like the public health system.
01:23:35
Yeah, it was like a little circle. I
01:23:37
went right back. All right, Dr.
01:23:39
Meredith, um, thank you so much for
01:23:41
coming on the podcast today. This has
01:23:42
been bloody great. Yeah, it's been a
01:23:44
pleasure. Thank you. Yeah, thank you for
01:23:46
reaching out and I'm I'm so pleased.
01:23:47
It's been a year in the making, but we
01:23:49
finally got to connect. It's been cool.
01:23:50
Definitely worth it. Thank you so much.
